highaltitude.log.20150222

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[08:09] <Zeusking19> identify orange23
[08:09] <Zeusking19> Well, bugger
[08:09] <Zeusking19> time to change my nickserv pass
[08:09] <Zeusking19> xD
[08:15] <daveake> hohoho
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[08:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03OHUP_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=OHUP_chase
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[08:35] <Zeusking19> With any luck should have my Arduino coming today
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[08:40] <daveake> on a sunday?
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[08:47] <Zeusking19> meh, in the past it's happened
[08:48] <Zeusking19> Order on Friday -> Arrive on Sunday
[08:52] <SpeedEvil> I was truly astounded when I phoned up the government for a form on Friday, and it arrived on Saturday morning.
[08:54] <daveake> same year ?
[08:55] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[08:56] <SpeedEvil> Now I need to complete nightmare form within a month.
[08:56] <daveake> that is astounding
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[09:20] <Vaizki> all our forms are online, I thought
[09:21] <Vaizki> oops. Anyway, I thought the UK to be well up to speed with e-government
[09:26] <SpeedEvil> hahhhhahhahhahahhhhhhahaha
[09:26] <SpeedEvil> In short - no.
[09:26] <Babs_> daveake - is there any best practice with regard to batteries clipped into the pcb, batteries hooked up via screw terminals. I can see advantages and disadvantages on both sides
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[09:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP5NVX - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=SP5NVX
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[09:49] <daveake> Babs_ Just make sure they can't come loose or momentarily break contact
[09:50] <daveake> Standard battery holders are bad for the latter
[09:51] <Vaizki> I was intending to use a "square" 4xAA and zip-tie across the middle
[09:51] <Vaizki> bad idea?
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[09:52] <Zeusking19> ducktape? xD
[09:54] <daveake> yup
[09:54] <Vaizki> yup = bad idea? or yup to ducktape? :)
[09:55] <Vaizki> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RC-4-x-AA-Battery-Holder-With-Futaba-Plug-For-Receiver-Cars-Planes-Boats-UK-/230717619591
[09:55] <daveake> yup to duck tape
[09:55] <daveake> duck tape is always a good idea
[09:55] <Vaizki> that's what I mean
[09:56] <daveake> yeah, what can happen on landing is that 2 of the batteries push against the springs, thus disconnecting at the opposite end, and rebooting your tracker
[09:56] <daveake> so much duct tape
[09:56] <mfa298> Vaizki: it's e-government in that they now use electic type-writers
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[09:58] <Vaizki> which brings me to connectors, any suggestions for a small go-to connector that comes both as wire-end and pcb flavors
[09:58] <Vaizki> 5A, no special crimping tools if possible
[10:05] <Vaizki> I was considering JST-XH with 2.5mm pitch because they would be easy on the debugging as well, using standard dupont wires for temporary hookup. they are only 3A though but probably doesn't matter.
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[10:07] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VENUS1-3 after 038 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VENUS1-3
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[11:06] <Vaizki> never ceases to amaze me how I can lose bits & bobs in my workshop.. I'm sure my banana plug connectors have transferred to an alternate universe at some decisive point in time as they've disappeared without a trace.
[11:10] <R34lB0rg> perhaps they are in a quantum state between universes and will reappear at any time ;)
[11:13] <bertrik> or still in use in a project you forgot about
[11:14] <Vaizki> well I remember buying more because I ran out and haven't used them since.. oh well.
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[11:32] <infaddict> bah run out of RAM to implement a SD card logger. Will have to do without it.
[11:33] <infaddict> or go raw
[11:33] <infaddict> even the smaller footprint libs wont fit in the 500 bytes I have left ;-/
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[11:51] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VEGA-I after 03a day silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VEGA-I
[11:52] <Vaizki> infaddict, you can get an openlogger for example
[11:52] <infaddict> hey Vaizki
[11:52] <Vaizki> it has its own avr chip, just write to it over serial
[11:52] <Vaizki> hey hey?
[11:54] <Vaizki> argh openlog is 5v only i guess
[11:55] <Vaizki> like they really need 16mhz to write to sd card...
[11:56] <Vaizki> oops sorry it does do 3.3v.. but a bit expensive
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[11:58] <infaddict> yer think i'll do without for now, its no big concern
[11:58] <Babs_> thanks daveake
[11:59] <Vaizki> infaddict, so you are down to 500bytes sram?
[11:59] <infaddict> yep, the i2c library takes up a bit as do the various command char arrays to configure gps
[12:00] <Vaizki> progmem the char arrays
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[12:00] <infaddict> but thats everything done. 2 x temperature sensors, GPS, radio, voltage etc
[12:00] <infaddict> yer i could do that
[12:00] <infaddict> only about 100 bytes i think
[12:00] <Vaizki> +20%
[12:01] <infaddict> yep
[12:01] <infaddict> all working pretty good, except voltage readings a bit weird. will seek further advice here on that later.
[12:01] <Vaizki> are you using arduino analogin?
[12:02] <infaddict> yes
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[12:09] <infaddict> !wiki coding errors
[12:09] <SpacenearUS> 03infaddict: Wiki page 03common_coding_errors_payload_testing - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:common_coding_errors_payload_testing
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[12:31] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03EDUPIC14 after 033 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=EDUPIC14
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[12:40] <Babs_> infaddict - you can fit it in, it is doable
[12:41] <Babs_> thanks daveake for the battery tips. can see what you mean about the double contact if it impacts in a certain way
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[13:02] <infaddict> Hi Babs_ - enlighten me ;-)
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[13:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Janido_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=Janido_chase
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[13:25] <Babs_> make sure all of the variables you are using are right sized for the problem in question, if you are printing debug messages use flash memory based string, use minimal amount of globals variables and unless there is anything really funky in terms of what you are trying to do it will fit
[13:28] <infaddict> thx done all of that apart from flash memory strings or progmem for const char arrays. its the libraries that eat 90% of the RAM.
[13:28] <infaddict> will continue my quest tho.
[13:36] <Vaizki> the arduino libraries are far from pretty & efficient
[13:36] <Vaizki> what temp sensors do you use btw?
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[13:43] <infaddict> DS18B20
[13:43] <infaddict> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/245
[13:46] <infaddict> dirt cheap, easy to wire and can put many on 1 single dig pin
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[14:52] <infaddict> anybody help with a sprintf question pls...
[14:52] <infaddict> here's my statement: sprintf(msg,"TEST,%06i,%s",flightTime,cdate);
[14:52] <infaddict> flightMode is a long and contains e.g. 5. cdate is a char[9] and contains "00000000\0". both proven to contain that via serial debug.
[14:53] <infaddict> yet the resultant msg is missing the date on the end and result is like this: TEST,000005,
[14:53] <infaddict> if i remove the flighTime and just do date alone it works
[14:54] <infaddict> back in 5
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> Do not assume full sprintf or printf formatting works with 8 bit embedded stuff
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> or indeed sscanf
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> Some of the options can be ridiculously RAM-heavy
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> Read the documentation
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[15:01] <infaddict> ok which documentation? and what is correct way of doing char array or string manipulation in 8 bit world?
[15:02] <infaddict> so i have things like date, time, lat, long coming from GPS as ints or longs. i want to convert to a char array to send via RTTY.
[15:02] <infaddict> all code i've found on web uses sprintf
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> Whatever C library you're using that provides sprintf
[15:03] Nick change: Elwell_ -> Elwell
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> Speaking generally, doing it yourself, and outputting the string with putc or puts can significantly decrease RAM and ROM use
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> But if you're not near the limits, it's not a real concern
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[15:42] <darthsimon123> Hey there, i've just bought a MAX-M8Q GPS breakout (http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=51) but i can't get it to work at all. I'm receiving valid NMEA sentences but there seems to be no fix. u-center tells me the only thing that is received is one GLONASS satellite and occasionally one weak GPS satellite. The receiver is placed outside, with a more or less clear view to the sk
[15:42] <darthsimon123> Any ideas, why it doesnt work?
[15:43] <daveake> What are you powering it from?
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[15:44] <darthsimon123> I'm using a 12V power source, one 12V-5V converter to power a raspberry pi which reads out the data and one 12V-3.3V converter to power the receiver
[15:45] <daveake> And the converter is >= 50mA ?
[15:45] <darthsimon123> It's 500mA max. That one here: http://www.xppower.com/pdfs/SF_SR.pdf
[15:46] <daveake> OK, and the GPS antenna has a good view of the sky without anything metal near it, or anything that might be interfering with it?
[15:48] <darthsimon123> I've put the whole thing into a carton box, the only thing metal nearby is a gutter aprox. 3m above it
[15:49] <infaddict> how long have you left it?
[15:49] <infaddict> mine take 4 mins to lock on
[15:49] <infaddict> sometimes longer
[15:50] <infaddict> and thats in a large open garden, nothing for 10m either side
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[15:53] <infaddict> also i found if i had been testing indoors for a while then moved outdoors without a power off, it didnt like that.
[15:53] <infaddict> i power off and power back on when outdoors
[15:53] <infaddict> and get a lock on <5 mins usually from cold start
[15:53] <Babs_> infaddict, are you using tinygps?
[15:54] <infaddict> nope using UBX protocol
[15:54] <infaddict> just reading the bytes myself
[15:54] <darthsimon123> should be about 15 minutes or so now... and i did power cycle it to get the power cord into the house :-D
[15:55] <darthsimon123> https://www.dropbox.com/s/jf275ukz1ltt935/IMG_20150222_165140.jpg?dl=0 it's the little box at the back of the car
[15:56] <darthsimon123> Oh and i'm receiving two GPS satellites and one GLONASS by now. Still no fix
[15:57] <infaddict> clearly u wont get any sats behind it due to house/roof. is it more wide open to sky the other direction?
[15:57] <Ian_> And nothing metal near it . . .?
[15:57] <infaddict> yer have u tried back to basics... i.e. out of the box, antenna pointing upwards.
[15:58] <infaddict> and away from the car
[15:58] <daveake> I suspect power
[15:59] <infaddict> mmm worth getting a meter reading on your power to the uBlox
[16:01] <darthsimon123> ok, just getting one now... Also moved it about 1m further away to the left, i haven't got any longer cables...
[16:01] <darthsimon123> Three GPS satellites now...
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[16:02] <infaddict> out of interest, how are you connecting it to computer for u-center info?
[16:03] <daveake> I was thinking a scope rather than a DMM
[16:03] <daveake> UBlox say: "GPS receivers require a stable power supply, avoid ripple on VCC (<50 mVpp)"
[16:04] <daveake> xppower.com (that PSU in use) say: "Ripple & Noise • 60 mV pk-pk with 10% minimum load"
[16:04] <darthsimon123> there's raspberry pi inside the box which is connected to my LAN. socat is running on the pi and forwarding serial i/o via network. u-center is able to read from a TCP server...
[16:04] <darthsimon123> Hmm, that might be it... Hold on a second...
[16:04] <jededu> infaddict I use serial
[16:06] <jededu> Actually running it now and wondering why I am using too much power
[16:06] <jededu> Ive lost 20ma somewhere
[16:07] <infaddict> so is gps getting 50ma?
[16:07] <daveake> The UBlox can draw quite a bit more than 50mA when getting a lock
[16:07] <daveake> It's a very spiky current draw
[16:08] <jededu> I had it down to 8ma
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[16:09] <jededu> The only thing that has really changed is an inductor
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[16:12] <alxwntr> Babs_: you mentioned tinygps - are there known problems with it?
[16:13] <daveake> It isn't tiny
[16:13] <alxwntr> I'm using a related version TinyGPS++
[16:13] <alxwntr> oh I see
[16:13] <alxwntr> is that it?
[16:13] <Babs_> that was the thing - would make your code smaller
[16:13] <Babs_> but you aren't so it won't
[16:13] <Babs_> what size is your serial buffer?
[16:14] <Babs_> poll nav-pvt and set it to 128 bytes
[16:14] <Babs_> will give you everything you need
[16:14] <alxwntr> when I decode that, I will try :)
[16:14] <Babs_> are you reading and storing all of the bytes of the output string from the ublox?
[16:15] <infaddict> mmm i considered tiny GPS but uses a fair bit of RAM so ditched it. easier to read the bytes myself and parse.
[16:16] <infaddict> but if memory isnt an issue then its a big help
[16:16] <alxwntr> well, it is very handy
[16:16] <alxwntr> absolutely
[16:17] <darthsimon123> ok! Ripple is actually at about 80mVpp, https://www.dropbox.com/s/jxqnh2qhzud78i6/IMG_20150222_171532.jpg?dl=0 . I guess this could explain the problems ;-)
[16:17] <Babs_> infaddict - are you storing the entire output string in your memory?
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[16:17] <Babs_> ass you read it?
[16:17] <Babs_> *as
[16:17] <alxwntr> :)
[16:18] <infaddict> no, reading the response to NAV-PVT message and storing the pieces i need in a struct. date/time/lat/long/altitude/Fix
[16:19] <infaddict> cut out all the bits i didnt want like velocity, bearing and other stuff
[16:19] <infaddict> Will habitat care about leading space on lat/long like this: $INFCU1,000009,20150209,07:00:59, 54.33255, -1.40550,0.00,-36.05,4.9,*A973
[16:22] <daveake> no
[16:22] <infaddict> excellent, thx daveake
[16:22] <infaddict> crappy sprintf on arduino really doesnt work very well with char arrays. if you put >1 in 1 sprintf it doesnt work. do 5 separate sprintf's however and it works.
[16:23] <infaddict> dont think its RAM issue as have 500+ avail
[16:23] <alxwntr> I made a little function to pad zeros
[16:23] <alxwntr> easy enough
[16:24] <alxwntr> it's a pain though, sprintf not dealing with certain classes
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[16:24] <infaddict> you can hack a library file to force arduino to compile float sprintf but it increases your pgm size considerably
[16:26] <alxwntr> that's handy
[16:28] <infaddict> well i've tested my sentence constructor with a ton of different inputs including positive, negative, leading and non leading zeroes etc. seems to be working.
[16:29] <infaddict> time to go and sit in the freezing cold garden again for real GPS check ;-)
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[16:35] <infaddict> how many $'s am i supposed to put at beginning of sentence and how many of them should be in the checksum pls?
[16:36] <infaddict> log tail parser shows 2 but not sure if its ignoring some
[16:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> Minimum of two $
[16:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> but more helps if signal is not the best
[16:37] <infaddict> thx Geoff-G8DHE, do i ignore all $ from checksum? having trouble getting habitab wizard to accept my sentence with a bad checksum
[16:38] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol?s%5B%5D=protocol
[16:38] <infaddict> thx
[16:39] <infaddict> right so that page shows $$ and ignoring both for checksum
[16:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> It says "// Calculate checksum ignoring the first two $s"
[16:39] <infaddict> yep and there are only two $
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[16:42] <daveake> You do not include any of the $s in the checksum
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[16:46] <infaddict> thx daveake and Geoff-G8DHE, all working now
[16:46] <daveake> You doing xor or CRC?
[16:49] <infaddict> crc16
[16:50] <daveake> cool
[16:50] <infaddict> i was just starting the calc assuming 5 $ not 2 doh!
[16:50] <daveake> Handy hint for anyone else starting: To avoid false positives and (worse) ridicule here during your flight, do the CRC :)
[16:50] <daveake> easy mistake to make
[16:50] <infaddict> yer was $$$$$ the standard a while back?
[16:50] <infaddict> and changed to $$?
[16:51] <infaddict> or some people just use more
[16:51] <daveake> it's not a standard
[16:51] <daveake> there is no standard just >= 2
[16:51] <db_g6gzh> infaddict: re your earlier question - sprintf(msg,"TEST,%06i,%s",flightTime,cdate); - if flightTime is a long then the format should be %06li
[16:52] <infaddict> ooh i wonder if that was causing it not to work then db_g6gzh
[16:52] <infaddict> i will try that
[16:53] <db_g6gzh> it can cause it to not print the later variables correctly or at all
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[16:54] <db_g6gzh> even if it prints that one correctly (for the value it happens to have)
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[16:54] <infaddict> that was indeed what was happening
[16:54] <daveake> yes things usually go horribly wrong with mismatched format string and variables
[16:54] <infaddict> i have the old syntax still there (but //) so trying it now
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[17:04] <infaddict> db_g6gzh: that fixed it! so now i have a single sprintf statement. many thx.
[17:04] <db_g6gzh> good to hear, so it fixed your char array issue too I take it?
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[17:05] <infaddict> yep. i also had a problem with 1 char array not having enough room for \0
[17:05] <infaddict> ive now got into habit of writing it like: char date[8+1] to remind me i did allow for it
[17:07] <db_g6gzh> C has many traps for the unwary 8-)
[17:08] <infaddict> indeed, i am a seasoned pro at many other languages but this is my first dive into C and C++ so learning all the time
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[17:15] <Vaizki> c was my 4th language
[17:16] <Vaizki> After basic, assembler and turbo pascal :)
[17:17] <db_g6gzh> it's my most used one for > 25 years; doesn't stop me occasionally making that kind of mistake, but at least I know what to look for when it fails to work
[17:18] <Zeusking19> Being the newbie I am, I don't feel worthy of doing this, but for anybody here that is a member of element14 I have just created a group dedicated to HAB as I could not find one before - feel free to join in :) http://www.element14.com/community/groups/high-altitude-ballooning
[17:18] <db_g6gzh> s/turbo pascal/fortran/ for me (and some PL/M-51)
[17:20] <infaddict> COBOL/Adabas Natural/VB/C# for me
[17:20] <infaddict> did a bit of pascal at college but not much
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[17:23] <infaddict> an old lecturer once told me, "if you can program in anything, you can program in anything"
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[17:29] <alxwntr> well, you're clearly well set-up for this malarkey, infaddict
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[17:29] <alxwntr> I have only basic C++ that I encountered at uni
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[17:30] <alxwntr> and consequently I'm struggling a bit with getting things to talk to each other
[17:30] <alxwntr> which is why TinyGPS++ was so helpful
[17:30] <yogyga> hello :)
[17:30] <alxwntr> I'd like to know more about what I'm doing, but the protocol doc is massive
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[17:31] <alxwntr> in the examples I found, I can turn off NMEA sentences by sending commands like "{ 0xB5, 0x62, 0x06, 0x01, 0x08, 0x00, 0xF0, 0x02, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x01, 0x02, 0x32 }"
[17:31] <alxwntr> why does that work? Who knows
[17:32] <alxwntr> anyone know of a document that explains how to get an arduino to talk to a uBlox?
[17:32] <alxwntr> I can see that "0xF0 0x02" refers to the specific sentence, but I have no idea about all the other stuff
[17:35] <alxwntr> I can't really find what I need in the protocol doc and there doesn't seem much in the datasheet
[17:35] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03myhealth73_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=myhealth73_chase
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[17:39] <happil> Hi everybody, I'm launching a crowdfunded HAB launch on Kickstarter. I was wondering if you leave me some feedback? Kickstarter preview link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sachalachin/1201180843?token=84525c28
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[17:40] <craag> 1. Use a radio tracker :)
[17:41] <craag> 2. You don't need a heater.
[17:41] <happil> ik about the heater.
[17:41] <craag> 3. Read this: http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1732
[17:41] <happil> It's going to be optional.
[17:42] <happil> I'm looking at two cameras, and the heater depends on their heat requirements
[17:42] <happil> At most I'll be using a small hand warmer, because the arduino flight electronics self-heat.
[17:42] <Zeusking19> !wiki How to lose your payload
[17:42] <SpacenearUS> 03Zeusking19: No results for your query
[17:42] <Zeusking19> Pretty sure SPOT/GSM is on that list
[17:42] <craag> A lot of hand warmers require oxygen.
[17:42] <craag> Something which is lacking at altitude.
[17:43] <Zeusking19> !wiki How to lose your flight
[17:43] <SpacenearUS> 03Zeusking19: Wiki page 03how_to_lose_your_flight - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:how_to_lose_your_flight
[17:43] <SpacenearUS> 03Zeusking19: Wiki page 03projects:canadawest:progress - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:canadawest:progress?s[]=lose&amp;s[]=flight
[17:43] <Zeusking19> Not sure if I am misinterpreting this, but GSM and SPOT are both on that list as "do not rely"
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[17:44] <craag> Zeusking19: Hopefully he's reading Dave's page, in which that's well covered :)
[17:44] <Zeusking19> :)
[17:44] <happil> I've already seen that, it's helpful, thanks!
[17:45] <happil> The hand warmers, I am doing research about those, and I'll be getting one (IF AT ALL) sealed requiring no oxygen.
[17:45] <happil> I've weighed up time, experience, cost and potential risks - which is why I'm including a SPOT and a cheaper 'gsm' tracker
[17:45] <daveake> Don't bother
[17:45] <daveake> Cameras self heat too
[17:46] <daveake> And good luck (I mean that) with Spot/GSM
[17:46] <alxwntr> just been reading that link that craag posted - thank you daveake for that
[17:46] <happil> I originally thought that, but I contacted the manufacturers and they mentioned operating temperatures. I hope to use the MidlandXTC400 and Contour ROAM3 cameras (excellent battery life and ruggedness)
[17:46] <alxwntr> it's great
[17:47] <happil> Concerning SPOT, the only real issue is if somehow they land completely upside down.
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[17:47] <daveake> Insulate well and don't use a heater
[17:47] <happil> I am building my cradle so it's literally impossible to tip upside down.
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[17:48] <jcoxon> as long as the cameas are taking pictures say every minute or so they remain pretty warm
[17:48] <Zeusking19> Just out of curiosity, what is wrong with building your own tracker? It's a better learning experience, you get to fine tune it to what you want to do and you have the UKHAS trackers backing you up
[17:48] <Vaizki> Krhm...
[17:48] <jcoxon> they generate a lot of heat
[17:48] <daveake> Spots can work to locate your payload they don't work in telling you where the flight is throughout the flight
[17:48] <daveake> So you don't know how high it got and you have little chance of being in the vicinity when it lands
[17:49] <happil> jcoxon: They will be constantly videoing
[17:49] <daveake> And a spot + cradle is a lot heavier than a radio tracker, so you need more gas and a bigger balloon, and/or you don't get as high
[17:50] <happil> daveake: Cradle = light wood/foam/string thing, less than 100 grams
[17:50] <daveake> tracker 20g
[17:50] <happil> And I'm fine with no 'live' tracking, I'll be using arduino altitude logger anyways.
[17:50] <Zeusking19> Errr
[17:50] <Vaizki> umm
[17:50] <Zeusking19> How do you plan to chase it?
[17:50] <Zeusking19> Without live tracking to see where it'll land?
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[17:51] <Vaizki> Big chance of losing the whole payload
[17:51] <happil> I hope to start tracking the SPOT when it gets back in range (below 10km I think), and can chase it then.
[17:51] <Zeusking19> Do you know how far these balloons travel?
[17:51] <darthsimon123> Regarding my previous GPS problems: Managed to get a 3D fix with 4 GPS satellites now, replaced the "rippling" converter with a stable one. Also used a better 12V PSU.
[17:52] <Vaizki> Have you ever used a spot?
[17:52] <Vaizki> I have...
[17:52] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03ATSAT-3 after 036 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=ATSAT-3
[17:52] <happil> Zeusking19: Between 10 and 200 miles depending on wind
[17:52] <happil> Sometimes more.
[17:52] <happil> But generally in the summer it's below 100
[17:52] <happil> And I'll be predicting and getting a wide range of dates for the permit.
[17:52] <Zeusking19> And when do you begin to start chasing in relation to how far the balloon has travelled?
[17:53] <Zeusking19> What if it never comes back into range?
[17:53] <happil> I don't follow
[17:53] <happil> You mean it never falls below 10km?
[17:53] <Zeusking19> The point being is that you will very likely lose your payload using this method
[17:53] <daveake> dunno about "very"
[17:54] <daveake> but the chances are >zero, and zero is what you get with a known good radio tracker
[17:54] <Vaizki> well you asked for feedback, the feedback is to use a live tracker
[17:54] <Zeusking19> But of course, don't trust my judgement as I have yet to launch a balloon :)
[17:54] <happil> I appreciate your feedback guys. But I'm still not sure what you mean when you say I'll lose the payload
[17:55] <Zeusking19> We are not saying you definitely will - rather that you may have difficulty in finding it
[17:55] <happil> Are you saying the SPOT doesn't work when it lands (assuming it won't be landing upside down)
[17:55] <craag> the spot trackers aren't 100% on coming back to life on the way down.
[17:55] <daveake> The Spot can fail anyway
[17:55] <happil> And I've got a cheap GSM as backup anyway?
[17:55] <Zeusking19> Never rely on GSM
[17:55] <daveake> which work < 50% of the time
[17:55] <Zeusking19> I should say *fully* rely
[17:55] <happil> >as a backup< :)
[17:56] <daveake> Sure but even the combo is still nowhere near a 100% solution
[17:56] <Vaizki> Would you use a backup parachute known to fail half the time? ;)
[17:56] <daveake> good point :)
[17:56] <Zeusking19> daveake, just out of interest, is there such a system such as the UKHAS 70cm network in regards to SPOT etc?
[17:57] <daveake> Don't follow
[17:57] <Vaizki> no spot is commercial sat based
[17:57] <Zeusking19> Ah
[17:57] <craag> You mean HABsatNET?
[17:57] <Vaizki> It's not open at all
[17:57] <happil> zeusking19: spot uses the private iridium satellite network
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[17:57] <craag> we're working on it, give us a few decades ;)
[17:57] <Zeusking19> Kinda what I was getting at
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[17:58] <Zeusking19> Using a radio transmitter you'll have UKHAS trackers spread out over the UK
[17:58] <daveake> Finally, a job for $50sat
[17:58] <Zeusking19> So you'll have people helping you track your payload, with SPOT that's not such a case, right?
[17:58] <Vaizki> A spot will lose fix on the way up
[17:58] <Vaizki> Also it does not re acquire at speeds past 80lm/h or so
[17:59] <Vaizki> At least mine didn't
[17:59] <happil> 801 miles per hour!!?
[17:59] <happil> or metres..?
[17:59] <Vaizki> Oops 80 km
[17:59] <daveake> Sounds like a strange restriction
[18:00] <happil> 5m/s ascent/descent = ~20kph
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[18:00] <happil> How the heck did you get 80 km/h speeds?
[18:00] <Vaizki> Happil, it's much faster than that before you get some air density
[18:00] <daveake> Initial fall is over 200 and the wind can be >200
[18:01] <Vaizki> Me? I was driving with it in a car
[18:01] <happil> Sure, but it won't be travelling at that speed for the whole flight
[18:01] <happil> When it gets to say, 10km, it will be descending at 6 to 7 m/s
[18:01] <daveake> 10m/s
[18:01] <happil> Which should allow it to get a lock
[18:01] <Vaizki> I have not flown a spot or anything else...
[18:01] <daveake> you would think
[18:02] <happil> 10m/s = 36kpj.
[18:02] <happil> kph*
[18:02] <daveake> As craag said, sometimes they don't
[18:02] <daveake> whether that's just old models or not, I don't know, but there have been such failuries
[18:02] <daveake> -i
[18:03] <happil> Not that it's for certain, but do you guys know where I can purchase a pre-made tracking module and instructions on how to use it?
[18:03] <happil> I've seen loads of guides for how to build them
[18:03] <happil> But nothing on where I could buy one.
[18:03] <Vaizki> There is habduino
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[18:04] <Zeusking19> Pi In the Sky?
[18:06] <Vaizki> Upu will set you up... But where's the kickstarter spirit in that
[18:08] <happil> Habduino looks very interesting actually, because I have two and I am using one as an altitude logger.
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[18:08] <Zeusking19> Wha...?
[18:09] <Zeusking19> Surely the HABDuino works as a tracker too?
[18:09] <Zeusking19> Yep
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[18:09] <Zeusking19> happil: Why overcomplicate things when you already have radio tracking equipment you can use?
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[18:10] <daveake> it doesn't (currently) log
[18:10] <Vaizki> I think he has an arduino
[18:10] <Ian_> happil, are you familiar with the saying about ADVICE?
[18:10] <Vaizki> Not a habduino shield
[18:11] <Zeusking19> Vaizki: What I am thinking...
[18:11] <daveake> HABduino is a tracker it isn't a logger
[18:12] <Zeusking19> No answer - do you think we scared him? :)
[18:12] <happil> nonono I meant I have two ARDUINOS
[18:12] <happil> lol
[18:12] <Zeusking19> :P
[18:12] <Vaizki> happil, also you dont want to log altitude from anything except gps
[18:13] <happil> I thought GPS didn't work above 10km...
[18:13] <Vaizki> works up to 50km
[18:13] <daveake> ublox GPS in flight mode does 50km
[18:13] <Zeusking19> I am pretty sure it says that on the wiki .-.
[18:14] <Ian_> It is no accident that if you Google Habduino that you will find that it is inextricable linked with the name daveoke(rman). If he was charging for his verified good advice, you would be broke already.
[18:14] <Zeusking19> ^
[18:14] <daveake> No, it's Upu's baby
[18:15] <Ian_> Please take heed and listen. A wise man (daveake) needs no advice, happil needs lots. Focus, stick your own cash where your good ideas are.
[18:16] <happil> It's perfectly alright to try and sell me stuff.
[18:16] <happil> It's what I need afterall!
[18:16] <Zeusking19> happil: Not the point of us being here, to sell stuff
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[18:16] <Zeusking19> We are here to advise, which is what you asked for
[18:16] <happil> So it looks like this habduino thing, you attach it to the duino, upload the code, then it should transmit on a certain frequency
[18:17] <happil> which I can then track on the online habhub tracker...
[18:17] <Ian_> No, the point is that there are some few people who are acknowledged experts in the field, until you have yourself launched many successful flights at least.
[18:17] <Zeusking19> happil: Just to make sure you are clear on the fact you'll need to track your flight as well on the ground :)
[18:18] <craag> happil: Read a bit more of that link I posted earlier - it explains how it works.
[18:18] <happil> So I need to buy an antenna, receiver and use some software on a laptop.
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[18:19] <Ian_> Their advice is free, and yes some do make equipment, to fill a void, largely for schools projects where time and resources do not permit self construction.
[18:19] <Zeusking19> In terms of receivers, if you plan to use SDR check to see what tuner chip it uses, only certain chips are supported
[18:19] <Zeusking19> !wiki beginners guide to tracking
[18:19] <SpacenearUS> 03Zeusking19: No results for your query
[18:20] <Zeusking19> !wiki tracking_guide
[18:20] <SpacenearUS> 03Zeusking19: Found 039 results for you query - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/start?do=search&id=tracking_guide
[18:20] <Ian_> Make your antenna and as much else as you can. Enjoy.
[18:22] <happil> Okay, now I'm even more confused... this looks real complicated... I need to get a TV antenna and decoder and upload results to the internet
[18:22] <Ian_> daveake launches commercially, because his advice and recovery rate is exceptionally good. No point in totally trying to reinvent the wheel.
[18:24] <Ian_> Best advice: read the wikis, listen to daveake, upu, craag and a few more.
[18:24] <happil> This seemed simple when I saw the sentintospace.com website
[18:25] <happil> *then I came to ukhas* :p
[18:26] <Zeusking19> HAB is not simple, but if you read the documentation and understand it it's fun
[18:27] <Zeusking19> Others: in regards to "HAB is not simple" feel free to argue that statement
[18:27] <happil> Can I ask, why do I need to have my own tracker on the ground
[18:28] <happil> I thought all the data from the habduino goes to other receiving stations so I can track online?
[18:28] <happil> Or am I missing something
[18:28] <Zeusking19> In effect it does - but why leave others to do the work for you?
[18:28] <craag> Only when the balloon is in the air
[18:29] <craag> At which point - if it's not working for some reason - too late!
[18:29] <Ian_> It's community tracking and this is the community.
[18:29] <happil> Ok, so it's run by community trackers?
[18:29] <Zeusking19> Also, another thing in regards to your payload:
[18:29] <happil> Ya?
[18:29] <craag> Also when looking for it on the ground, you can use your own receiver to get an accurate position once you're close.
[18:29] <Zeusking19> You said it was constructed out of wood - how likely is it to damage whatever it is that it lands on?
[18:30] <Zeusking19> Considering it may be a person/car/greenhouse/etc
[18:30] <happil> Wood?
[18:30] <happil> No, it's a polystyrene box.
[18:30] <Zeusking19> 17:50:03 - happil: daveake: Cradle = light wood/foam/string thing, less than 100 grams
[18:31] <happil> There may be a small wood/plastic cradle or similar to hold the paper in front of the camera
[18:31] <Zeusking19> right
[18:31] <happil> And to stop it landing upside down.
[18:31] <Zeusking19> So, the point still stands, what if the cradle hits something delicate?
[18:31] <happil> Not much, unless it's an eggshel
[18:31] <happil> l
[18:31] <Zeusking19> Consider the descent rate
[18:31] <happil> It's literally going to be pencil size and density
[18:32] <happil> It's just a pencil-like piece of wood sticking in front of the camera
[18:32] <happil> And two of them on the top.
[18:32] <Zeusking19> Alright, carry on, I'm just being dumb here xD
[18:32] <Zeusking19> still not exactly convinced but I know nothing :P
[18:33] <happil> Besides which, I've budgeted the kickstarter campaign for a small rescue fee
[18:33] <happil> And I intend to bring along permits from the local police force(s), council, CAA and the launchsite land owner.
[18:33] <happil> So I'm adding a £20 or perhaps £30 reward for returning.
[18:34] <Zeusking19> This is a bit of a gray area for me, can someone who knows a bit more on this subject chip in?
[18:34] <Ian_> Happil, I suspect that you are very young, have a lot to learn and need to read more.
[18:34] <Zeusking19> 15, I believe was in the video
[18:35] <happil> I shouldn't have a money reward for returning the payload then?
[18:35] <Zeusking19> Nah, it's a good thing to have and heightens your chances of getting it back
[18:36] <Zeusking19> In regards to your kickstarter as well, I think £1500 is a bit high
[18:36] <Zeusking19> For a first flight surely no more than £500 is required?
[18:36] <Ian_> Did anyone say that? If you have a GoPro camera in your payload, what's that against a £30 reward. Payloads have been collected by ramblers etc with a view to keeping the contents.
[18:37] <happil> Zeusking19: It was originally a lot less, however the rewards, kickstarter fees, extortionate cost of helium etc. bring it up
[18:37] <happil> I'm using the quality spherachute/rocketman stuff, a totex balloon
[18:38] <happil> And two cameras
[18:38] <Zeusking19> happil: As this is your first flight, why not go a bit simpler to get the hang of things?
[18:38] <Zeusking19> You don't really want to do something wrong and lose your equipment
[18:39] <happil> I started out with the intention of doing something this size. I've got a lot of support, and tbh it wouldn't appeal to me scaling it down
[18:39] <happil> I've outlined risks, and kickstarter campaigns have asked for similar amounts of money for much less in terms of rewards
[18:40] <Zeusking19> I'm just making a point that there are some improvements to make and that it would seriously be better to start small - because the last thing you need is to disappoint your backers
[18:40] <Zeusking19> I'm going to shut up now as there is potential I'll say something wrong and the rest of the "professionals" here will probably burn me over it, so I'm just going to sit and observe
[18:42] <Ian_> Zeusking19, do you see an afternoon tutorial on Eagle being readily joined. Instant gratification is bliss, but you can see now the wisdom of the recommended path via learning I guess.
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[18:42] <Zeusking19> Ian_: I'm not really understanding what you mean
[18:43] <Zeusking19> Could you elaborate?
[18:43] <Ian_> You followed the 1:1 tutorial the other day and it went well. You have grasped a lot of the issues.
[18:44] <Zeusking19> Ah, with edmoore? Yes.
[18:44] <Ian_> Others apparently are not blessed with your patience.#
[18:44] <Zeusking19> I was about to say, happil's plans seem... rushed and not well researched
[18:45] <happil> You could say that
[18:45] <Ian_> I couldn't possibly comment further on that, but suspect that he may not enjoy the success that he hopes for. Good luck to him all the same.
[18:45] <happil> But I've done a lot of research, and I'd say 70-80% of the launches I see are using the more 'commercially available' equipment I hope to use
[18:45] <Zeusking19> happil: I understand the frustration of having other people point out so many flaws in your plans, it's happened to me before, but the best way to go along is to take the advice and improve on what you have - you have an idea in place, just work out how you plan to execute this properly
[18:46] <Zeusking19> Because in the end, no matter how much research you do, what you decide to actually formulate WITH that research is the deciding factor.
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[18:48] <Zeusking19> Sorry for being so blunt but it had to be said
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[18:49] <daveake> happil When I started, the trigger was (as it happens) the first launch by those "sent into space" guys. I thought "wow that's simple I should have a go". Then I started researching, and very soon found out about GSM and Spot limitations, and the fact that pretty much everyone in the UK (certainly those with a good recovery record) use radio. So my nice simple project became a good deal more involved, however I could see that the benefits far,
[18:49] <daveake> far far outweighed the extra effort required.
[18:50] <Zeusking19> I'm going to leave for a little bit here, soak in the advice happil, because it's going to help you a lot
[18:50] <daveake> You may decide otherwise but whatever, make an informed and considered choice.
[18:50] <happil> Even the sky news weather balloon used a cheap GSM tracker
[18:51] <daveake> Please don't try to tell me it's a good idea
[18:51] <happil> no no, I agree.
[18:51] <happil> Though I appreciate all your advice, I'll take it on board and I will use it to make an informed choice
[18:51] <daveake> people use them because they're cheap and simple
[18:51] <happil> I realise a lot of you hardcore enthusiasts probably laugh at the idea of SPOT and GSM, which is why I have spent months of weekends looking up this stuff
[18:52] <daveake> however, when you've got expensive cameras and other kit onboard, that's no reason at all
[18:52] <daveake> One of mine had over £1500 of kit in the payload
[18:52] <daveake> No way would I trust that to GPS and/or Spot
[18:53] <daveake> It's nothing to do with being a "h/w enthusiast"; it's all to do with the chances of success
[18:53] <daveake> and if I launch a radio tracker, I *will* find out where it lands
[18:56] <happil> To you guys, is 'balloon news' a known community figure or a loony?
[18:57] <Zeusking19> happil: In regards to the "laughing at the idea of SPOT and GSM" I am not a hardcore enthusiast - I started my HAB experience last weekend and I am still following decent advice. If it is unreliable equipment, it is unreliable - being hardcore does not change that
[18:57] <Zeusking19> Another thing, try and keep the canister of helium away from your six year old launch assistant ;)
[18:58] <Zeusking19> (though that's more common sense than anything)
[18:58] <happil> hah
[18:58] <happil> She won't be touching that, don't worry.
[18:59] <happil> She generally doesn't fiddle with things
[18:59] <Zeusking19> heh :P
[18:59] <happil> NOBODY will be touching that apart from me.. :)
[18:59] <Zeusking19> surely multiple people is better for launching?
[18:59] <Zeusking19> daveake could probably answer that one
[18:59] <happil> yeah I was kind of joking.
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[19:00] <Zeusking19> It's difficult to tell jokes from serious over the internet unless it's obvious :)
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[19:00] <happil> I gotta go. Thanks all for your advice.
[19:00] <Zeusking19> No problem
[19:00] <happil> bye
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[19:00] <Zeusking19> -_-
[19:01] <Zeusking19> Was I too harsh?
[19:01] <Ian_> Not really. Obviously convinced and not receptive to good advice, on principle.
[19:02] <Ian_> Tea time, bbl
[19:02] <Zeusking19> cya
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[19:04] <craag> Slightly harsh maybe :)
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[19:04] <craag> I mean ideally we'd like everyone to do it our way.
[19:04] <Vaizki> you need abrasives to polish
[19:04] <Vaizki> ;)
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[19:05] <Zeusking19> tbh I feel that was not really something I should have gotton involved in given my lack of understanding with HAB
[19:05] <craag> But I'd rather someone tried out the inferior methods than we alienated them.
[19:07] <craag> Zeusking19: Everything you said looks good.
[19:08] <craag> If someone looks at the evidence and still decides they want to use SPOT/GSM - fine - their money - we don't need to argue :)
[19:09] <craag> Would rather they stuck around so we could say "I told you so" ;)
[19:09] <Zeusking19> To be honest that would not have been worth the typing, I doubt he'll follow our advice from his attitude
[19:10] <Vaizki> craag: it's not his money, it's kickstarter money :)
[19:10] <Zeusking19> as I said, disappointed backers
[19:10] <craag> His reputation then..
[19:11] <Zeusking19> Honestly, the backers will lose out and he'll damage his reputation
[19:11] <craag> With a few minutes research - hopefully the backers would come to the same conclusion
[19:12] <craag> s/backers/potential backers/
[19:12] <SpeedEvil> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/elanlee/exploding-kittens/description
[19:12] <Zeusking19> Anyways, outside of that conversation, in regards to the element14 group (http://www.element14.com/community/groups/high-altitude-ballooning), are there any suggestions as to things I should add in regards to the fact that new HABbers may arrive at that page?
[19:14] <Vaizki> tell them to come here
[19:14] <Zeusking19> to the IRC channel? :P
[19:14] <Vaizki> well why are you here?
[19:14] <daveake> I think I'll do a "So you want to HAB?" flowchart :)
[19:14] <Vaizki> can't be my personality...
[19:15] <daveake> End points being "Make your own tracker; buy a tracker; pay Dave to do it for you; give up now"!
[19:15] <daveake> -!
[19:15] <daveake> (! is next to ")
[19:17] <Vaizki> pay dave 3x the going rate for dave to do it your way
[19:19] <SpeedEvil> http://xkcd.com/1488/ http://xkcd.com/730/
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[19:35] <Zeusking19> daveake, the flowchart idea is actually a good idea xD
[19:49] <daveake> kickstarter won't be any of the end points
[19:49] <daveake> That's just "I'd like others to fund my personal project"
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[20:03] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-35 after 037 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PS-35
[20:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VZK-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VZK-1
[20:05] <Vaizki> eeeeps
[20:05] <Vaizki> ok so even testing payloads puts them here :)
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[20:06] <Vaizki> but hmm seems to be working great
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[20:11] <Zeusking19> wait, isn't that what offline mode is for or am I missing something?
[20:11] <craag> Well you want to test it all the way through
[20:12] <craag> And with the filtering availible on the map, it's not going to get in anyone's way.
[20:12] <craag> So testing online is fine :)
[20:13] <Zeusking19> alrighty :P
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[20:23] <daveake> Best not to test online during an actual flight, but as craag said it can be filtered out
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> what we need is over the air firmware updates
[20:25] <Laurenceb_> /sarc
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[20:37] <infaddict> evening. i know that general thought is software serial is the root of all evil, but is it ok for one off tasks like setting frequency of NTX2B-FA?
[20:37] <infaddict> to save me rewriring thats all
[20:38] <Upu> yep its fine
[20:38] <Upu> evening
[20:38] <infaddict> thx Upu. which brings me to ask, is there any logic in choosing a frequency? 434.075 seems popular but thought i'd ask. clearly if 2 launches in same day/place you'd adjust.
[20:39] <Upu> I don't sell a module on 075
[20:39] <Upu> 075 is popular because Radiometrix tranditionally sold a 434.075 and 434.650 module only
[20:39] <Upu> there is good reason to use neither frequency
[20:39] <infaddict> ah right. mine is 434.200 out of the box.
[20:40] <infaddict> i will leave it if no good reason to change
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[20:59] <daveake> infaddict With a bit of care you can use your RTTY timer interrupt to set the NTX2B frequency, thus avoiding the horror that is software serial
[21:00] <daveake> Or, write a small sketch that sets the frequency in the NTX2B's non-volatile storage
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[21:00] <infaddict> yep the latter was what i was planning to do, with the wr command
[21:00] <infaddict> as a one off
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[22:22] <Vaizki> ok so I am reading from ublox over i2c.. I get some crap characters out of there at first, then start getting the real output
[22:23] <Vaizki> is that just the ublox booting and spewing crap or maybe something else?
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[22:33] <bones> Hello all, I'm trying to get signal data of gps through my ntx2b, I had it working with the starting "$$" but now it starts each transmission with F6!$$, does anyone know what this could be ?
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[22:39] <Ian_> From a standing start your receiver will be taking a degree of noise. Ideally powering up your NTX2B to give a second or so of holding mark before you start your data.
[22:40] <Ian_> The purpose being to ensure that any noise that may have triggered a character receive cycle is clear and stable before your data begins. This is also why some people send more than the minimum number of $$ characters.
[22:41] <Ian_> Does that make sense for you?
[22:41] <Ian_> bones ?
[22:43] <Ian_> A bit like someone speaking to you while you are concentrating on doing something else and miss the start of the conversation because they have not given you a chance to give it your attention, such as addressing you by name first.
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[22:44] <bones> sorry i am here
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[22:45] <Ian_> See, it works just like that. you were obviously multi tasking . . . ;-)
[22:45] <bones> would adding a simple delay help this ?
[22:46] <Ian_> I would guess that you turn on the NTX2B and transmit, without any delay at the moment?
[22:46] <bones> yes thats right
[22:47] <fsphil> might also help to transmit a few null's first
[22:47] <fsphil> ascii 0x00
[22:47] <bones> how strange, what you say makes sense though ian, thank you for helping me - i'll give it a go. It is odd that it worked earlier in the day but not anymore
[22:47] <Ian_> Imagine that noise has just triggered your receiver. It will attempt to decode a character and won't be ready for the next until it has finished. If you hit it with a character half way through /
[22:48] <Ian_> the process then it will only see the end of your character, so give it a character's worth of delay from giving it a stable signal before radiating your data.
[22:49] <Ian_> Noise is a random thing. it may often work 90% of the time without you noticing any problem, but best you give the receiver a good chance to settle before expecting it to work seamlessly.
[22:50] <bones> thank you for the help :)
[22:50] <Ian_> If it doesn't help when you do your testing shout in and I'll give you your money back!
[22:51] <Vaizki> related to this I have a question on stop bits.. since the I use 50,7n2, that means that the last 2 bits transmitted are always stop bits, or high bits. and then my transmitter might be idle for a second.. does it matter that I just leave it transmitting the high mark?
[22:51] <Vaizki> at the end of the sentence that is
[22:51] <Vaizki> I guess it doesn't matter how long I "hold" the stop bit
[22:52] <Vaizki> as long as it's at least 2*20ms long
[22:52] <Ian_> The stop bits are a holding mark. Hold on for the answer please
[22:52] <fsphil> Vaizki: correct
[22:52] <Vaizki> right, so doesn't matter how long until the next start bit
[22:53] <Vaizki> which is naturally a "low"
[22:53] <fsphil> the decoder simply waits for the next high->low transition
[22:53] <Ian_> The receiver if you declare it 7n2 is done and dusted after data bit seven, so theoretically it has a better margin for resynchronising than if you specced it as 8n1
[22:53] <Vaizki> right, so I could run 7n4 ;)
[22:53] <fsphil> yep
[22:53] <fsphil> infact in fldigi, the stop bit setting has no effect on the decoder at all
[22:54] <Vaizki> my code allows for arbitrary stop bits
[22:54] <Ian_> If you think of land line communication, there is always an idle mark between messages
[22:54] <fsphil> only exception is ssdv, where you can't put a delay in the middle of a packet
[22:55] <Vaizki> yea I grasp 99% of this, just wondering about rtty if it has any special stuff I need to know when it all goes horribly wrong in the middle of a flight :
[22:55] <fsphil> nah
[22:56] <fsphil> some decoders might have stricter requirements for timing, but fldigi definitly doesn't
[22:57] <Ian_> RTTY just happens. Proven technology.
[22:59] <bones> ian - sorry, where should i put the nulls ? at the end of the ntx transmit?
[22:59] <Ian_> How are you keying your NTX2B, resistors or pwm?
[23:00] <bones> resistors
[23:00] <bones> the 3 resistor guide
[23:00] <bones> 4.7k, 4.7k, 47k
[23:01] <Ian_> With resistors you will have put the port high for a holding mark (stop bits) just put a delay in and it will stay that way until the next start bit.
[23:02] <Ian_> No requirement to put in any special extra characters or bits.
[23:02] <Ian_> Doing nothing won't stop time passing.
[23:02] <Ian_> Clear?
[23:03] <bones> thank you
[23:03] <bones> thats clear
[23:03] <bones> i also added in some more $$ and it fixed the problem
[23:03] <bones> but i'll do what you have said aswell
[23:03] <Ian_> Can't do any harm, for sure.
[23:04] <Ian_> I need to work out a very graphic anology to describe this just so.
[23:06] <Ian_> If battery power saving is essential then you might not transmit continuously, but if you are then a constant mark between messages, as you process your new string, is the way to go.
[23:06] <fsphil> you want a few nulls before your $$'s
[23:07] <Ian_> Sorry fsphil, I came up in the world of 7.5 unit telegraphy and so we had no null characters, just a holding mark.
[23:08] <Ian_> Same difference really.
[23:08] <fsphil> the null is easier for fldigi to sync too
[23:09] <Ian_> I can't disagree with that.
[23:12] <Vaizki> you mean tapping out nulls via rtty?
[23:12] <Vaizki> so 7n2 that would be 8 low bits + 2 high repeated a couple of times?
[23:14] <Ian_> This is where perhaps fsphil and my approach may differ. I would switch on the NTX2B and set the data pin mark high for a couple of character periods or so.
[23:14] <Ian_> I understand that fsphil would perhaps prepend his message with a couple of ASCII null characters or so.
[23:15] <bones> is there a way to know my gps is in flight mode
[23:15] <bones> ive used the code
[23:16] <fsphil> in a series of nulls, the only high bit is the stop bit
[23:16] <Ian_> On a Naval RTTY ship shore link operators would thrash the letters key while they thought between words.
[23:16] <fsphil> so the decoder won't pick the wrong one to start with
[23:16] <Ian_> The better to keep the receiver agc happy.
[23:16] <fsphil> or will pick the correct one within two bytes
[23:17] <gonzo_nb> yep, nulls are a good idea at the start of a packet
[23:17] <gonzo_nb> if ir;s not packetised, then sending nulls in the flow to help recovder sync are good too
[23:17] <bones> how do i represent a null
[23:18] <bones> before my strcat(test,"$$");
[23:18] <gonzo_nb> ascii or 5unit?
[23:18] <bones> ascii
[23:18] <gonzo_nb> null is ascii zero
[23:18] <fsphil> you can't put them into a C string, as C uses a null to signal the end of a string
[23:19] <bones> oooh
[23:19] <fsphil> I'm not familiar with your code, if you have a function to send a single character you can use that
[23:19] <gonzo_nb> not sure how ypou would do it on a fn call. My stuff is all byte bashing
[23:19] <gonzo_nb> is there an escaped null chr?
[23:19] <fsphil> nope
[23:19] <fsphil> well yes
[23:19] <fsphil> "\0hello"
[23:19] <fsphil> but this is the same as a blank string
[23:20] <gonzo_nb> will the strcyp fn read that?
[23:20] <fsphil> to any C string function
[23:20] <fsphil> nope
[23:20] <fsphil> they all read to the null, anything after is ignored
[23:20] <gonzo_nb> never used strings.
[23:20] <Ian_> Missed that small fact gonzo_nb , sorry I just set the mark high for a short period before transmitting data
[23:20] <gonzo_nb> an null terminated
[23:21] <gonzo_nb> then don'r use strings is the answer
[23:22] <gonzo_nb> I just use for loops to copy bytes across to my tx buffer
[23:22] <fsphil> in my code I have a function to send a string, and one to send x number of bytes
[23:23] <gonzo_nb> I've never worked on a processor that has has free prog space to waste on string handling libs etc
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[23:23] <Ian_> I just set pin tx pin high, delay; then data string via a loop
[23:23] <fsphil> for the rtty example on the wiki, easier just to do rtty_txbyte(0) a few times before the string is sent
[23:24] <Ian_> Many ways to skin the same cat.
[23:24] <fsphil> aye
[23:24] <fsphil> horrible phrase :)
[23:24] <gonzo_nb> now I'm being dropped into c# it's a but of a culture shock.
[23:24] <gonzo_nb> but fun imagry
[23:28] <Ian_> I'm unlikely to feel the need to familiarise myself with C#
[23:29] <gonzo_nb> with I could stay on embedded. I'm comfortable when I need schematics to program with
[23:29] <gonzo_nb> wish
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[23:44] <Ian_> I can understand that, a schematic is a nice form of code specification that is usually less ambiguous than a cludged requirement produced by an analyst.
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[23:57] <Vaizki> hmm I still keep getting crap from i2c if there is real data to receive
[00:00] --- Mon Feb 23 2015