highaltitude.log.20150203

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[01:54] <amell> Did josep get it working?
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[03:47] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KG7IXX-11 after 032 days silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG7IXX-11
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[04:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VENUS1-1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=VENUS1-1
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[09:48] <li4m0> Morning
[09:49] <li4m0> daveake if your about....
[09:49] <daveake> Mifht be
[09:49] <li4m0> Reading your lora gateway article, i'm guessing the rfm98w does not suffer much frequency drift
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[09:49] <li4m0> If the frequency is hard set in the gateway
[09:50] <daveake> I've not had to readjust during flight, no
[09:50] <daveake> I will be adding an autotune function at some point
[09:51] <li4m0> Ok thanks was just trying to understand
[09:52] <daveake> Anyway it's not the lora chip it's whatever cheapo crystal gets put on the module
[09:54] <li4m0> Thanks. Can you see any advantages with regards to hab'ing with the new pi 2 coming out
[09:54] <li4m0> Or is it just an overkill with regards processing power/memory
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[09:57] <daveake> For trackers, none at all - the A+ is a much better prospect
[09:58] <daveake> and then only if you need its power and/or ability to easily add a camera
[09:58] <daveake> On the ground tho, the V2 could be quite interesting - SDR, decoding etc
[09:58] <li4m0> Yeh that's what I was thinking rather than lugging a laptop about
[10:00] <daveake> I think dl-fldigi wasn't far off working on a V1, so someone should have a go on the v2
[10:02] <HF_ATL> do anybody use warmers/heaters in hab flights or really only try to insulate the electronics as much as possible?
[10:03] <daveake> Some people do use hand-warmers, but there's no need
[10:03] <daveake> Some types need oxygen so don't work (much) anyway
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[10:11] <HF_ATL> so insulate as best as possible is really enough right?
[10:13] Nick change: uwe___ -> uwe_
[10:14] <daveake> yes
[10:14] <HF_ATL> thanks dave
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[11:32] <infaddict> hey guys. just reading up on interrupt driven RTTY. why does RTTY need a 20ms delay between bit tx? sry if this is a dumb question.
[11:32] <daveake> 50 baud
[11:32] <daveake> 50 transitions (potentially) per second
[11:32] <daveake> 1000/50 = 20ms between possible transitions
[11:34] <infaddict> ok so by sending a bit every 20ms, we are achieving 50bps is that right?
[11:34] <infaddict> not sure if bps=baud to be honest
[11:34] <edmoore> yes
[11:34] <adamgreig> nearly
[11:34] <edmoore> bps = baud in the following scenario
[11:34] <edmoore> you are sending one bit per symbol
[11:35] <edmoore> which comes from 2FSK, which is actually what rtty is
[11:35] <adamgreig> because with RTTY you need to transmit a 'start bit' and one or two 'stop bits', you actually use ten or eleven bit-periods per 7 or 8 (depending on settings) bits of data
[11:35] <adamgreig> so your bps is about 7/10 * baud
[11:35] <edmoore> so we say rtty is fsk, that's true, but it's more accurate to say it's 2fsk - we send one of two frequencies and each represents a 1 or a 0
[11:35] <edmoore> also what adamgreig is saying about byte packing
[11:36] <edmoore> you could have 4 different frequencies to choose from (4fsk) which could represent 00, 01, 10, and 11
[11:36] <edmoore> i.e. you send two bits per frequency
[11:36] <edmoore> the proper word for this is 'symbol'
[11:36] <edmoore> so 4fsk in the above scenario is 2 bits per symbol
[11:37] <edmoore> so 50 baud might be 100bps (not factoring in the start and stop stuff adam mentioned)
[11:37] <edmoore> more complicated modulation standards such as you might fine for sattelite TV might send 8 bits per symbol
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[11:38] Nick change: day- -> day
[11:39] <infaddict> right i see thx. some example code i've seen is only sending a bit in 4 of the 5 states in the ISR (in 1 of the states it prepares the data to be sent). if ISR is every 20ms isn't this "skipping" a transmit 1 out of 5 times?
[11:39] <edmoore> can you link to the code?
[11:39] <infaddict> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:interrupt_driven_rtty
[11:40] <infaddict> case 0: in the ISR isnt doing TX unless i am misreading it
[11:40] <infaddict> other cases call rtty_txbit
[11:40] <Vaizki> people mix up baud and bps because in the early days of home modem use we had modems where baud = bps.. each transition would transmit one bit
[11:40] <Vaizki> but you can't really run over 2400 baud over a phone line
[11:40] <Vaizki> so you need to encode >1 bit per baud
[11:40] <adamgreig> infaddict: that code calls 'case 2' many times
[11:41] <adamgreig> it's a state machine that transmits a data bit each time case 2 runs
[11:41] <infaddict> correct
[11:41] <infaddict> my point is case 0 doesnt xmit anything
[11:41] <adamgreig> and a start bit in case 1 and stop in case 3 and 4
[11:41] <infaddict> so every case 0, we skip xmitting a bit
[11:41] <adamgreig> so when it runs, it goes through states like.. 0->1->2->2->2->2->2->2->2->3->4->0->1....
[11:42] <adamgreig> which transmits (nothing), START, DATA7, DATA6, DATA5, DATA4, DATA3, DATA2, DATA1, DATA0, STOP, STOP, (nothing), ...
[11:42] <adamgreig> oh you're wondering if it means this one 'wastes time' by not transmitting sometimes?
[11:42] <adamgreig> like it would just have nothing being set betwee nbytes?
[11:43] <infaddict> exactly
[11:43] <adamgreig> in this case also no: because C is an awful language
[11:43] <adamgreig> in a switch statement, if you don't "break;", it carries through to the next case
[11:44] <adamgreig> so in the case where it finds another byte to transmit, it will immediately move on to sending th estart bit, in that ISR
[11:44] <adamgreig> if it's already transmitted _all_ the _bytes_ in its buffer, then it stops and waits for more bytes to become available
[11:44] <Vaizki> case labels are like goto points
[11:44] <Vaizki> and I don't think it's awful ;)
[11:45] <Vaizki> you just need to know what you're doing
[11:45] <adamgreig> it _is_ awful
[11:45] <adamgreig> it invariably leads to mistakes even by experienced programmers
[11:45] <adamgreig> this is how awful thing shappen
[11:45] <adamgreig> you absolutely have to always be incredibly aware of what you're doing, and if you slip for even a moment, things can and probably will go horribly wrong with no warning
[11:45] <jonsowman> see https://www.imperialviolet.org/2014/02/22/applebug.html
[11:45] <adamgreig> this is not a good feature of a language
[11:46] <zyp> adamgreig, just like programming in general
[11:46] <Vaizki> adamgreig, have you ever programmed in assembly..?
[11:46] <adamgreig> I think it's much more extreme than programming "in general"
[11:46] <adamgreig> Vaizki: yes, plenty, and I make a point to try and avoid it for things that really must be obviously correct
[11:46] <adamgreig> which is most software I write
[11:46] <zyp> I think you are full of shit
[11:46] <jonsowman> language
[11:46] <Vaizki> now boys...
[11:46] <zyp> when we're talking opinions
[11:46] <adamgreig> wow, yes, you must be correct because you can say I'm full of shit!
[11:47] <adamgreig> maybe attack my arguments and not me
[11:47] <jonsowman> there's no need for that zyp
[11:47] <Vaizki> ad hominem WINS
[11:47] <lz1dev> i disagree
[11:47] <lz1dev> that behaviour in switch is very nice
[11:47] <lz1dev> and useful
[11:47] <infaddict> right i missed that there is no break statement on the first if case 0
[11:47] <infaddict> let me re-read it
[11:48] <Vaizki> but yes it would be nice to have a switch-case with training wheels on it ;)
[11:48] <daveake> break is a trap for the unwary/wary
[11:48] <daveake> hate it
[11:48] <lz1dev> C is a trap :)
[11:48] <daveake> Very easy if going from another language to C to forget
[11:48] <zyp> Vaizki, it's called if/else if ;)
[11:48] <Vaizki> I used to code software 3D renderers in C, I can tell you I loved the option of leaving the break out
[11:49] <Vaizki> zyp, but that can't be optimized by the compiler as well
[11:49] <Vaizki> well maybe modern compilers
[11:49] <daveake> The "once in a while" that's its handy is, IMO/IME, outweighed by the times when you use this "feature" by accident
[11:49] <adamgreig> I think pretty much any modern compiler produces nearly identical code for the same if/else vs switch structure :p
[11:50] <zyp> Vaizki, sure, but that's not what you asked for
[11:50] <adamgreig> right, I'm sure we've all used it and found it handy all sorts of times
[11:50] <infaddict> right so having paid a bit more attention i can indeed see that the first case then runs into second case (due to lack of break) and therefore IT IS sending on each interrupt therefore is 50 baud ;-)
[11:50] <adamgreig> it's a nice shortcut, like being able to totally fuck with everything is sometimes super useful
[11:50] <infaddict> thanks for your help
[11:50] <daveake> I have. I think it was about 20 years ago, but it happened
[11:50] <adamgreig> infaddict: no trouble! normally such a small cute thing will not trigger such an emotional outbreak here
[11:50] <adamgreig> but C is close to people's hearts
[11:50] <daveake> I even used setjmp once
[11:51] <infaddict> ha! i wasn't having a go at the language, just trying to understand it
[11:51] <Vaizki> I think there's a warning flag for case fallthrough in GCC
[11:51] <Vaizki> I saw it discussed but I've never used it
[11:52] <Vaizki> and probably a #pragma to tell the compiler that you really want to fall through here
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[11:52] <jonsowman> -Wswitch-break in gcc
[11:52] <Vaizki> thx
[11:53] <adamgreig> but it's not in -Wall or -Wextra
[11:53] <adamgreig> sigh
[11:53] <adamgreig> gcc
[11:53] <Vaizki> in 20/20 hindsight it WOULD have been better to have the language implicitly break when a new case starts. then use "continue" to explicitly fall through.
[11:54] <Vaizki> but I am not the K nor the R.
[11:54] <lz1dev> that would be so confusing
[11:54] <Vaizki> :D
[11:54] <zyp> Vaizki, that sounds like something that would make multi-case statements pretty ugly
[11:54] <lz1dev> with the continue behaviour in a loop
[11:54] <Vaizki> well loops have break too
[11:55] <pc1pcl> the switch case statement is jused based on underlying jump instructions, just like something like "on x goto 100,120,240" in basic.
[11:55] <daveake> I feel a bit sick
[11:55] <edmoore> i did not know that switch-break wasn't in Wall or Wextra
[11:55] <zyp> yeah, the switch construct is designed to make a computed jump
[11:56] <edmoore> learnt something new today
[11:56] <adamgreig> haha oh good yes it's just like BASIC, we should definitely use this feature of C more
[11:56] <pc1pcl> so it makes sense to be the way it is, and yes we all have had cases where it was super useful or incredibly dumb to work that way ;)
[11:56] <adamgreig> i mostly just write C like BASIC anyway
[11:56] <adamgreig> lots of labels and gotos, no functions
[11:56] <Vaizki> hey I use goto in my code too!
[11:56] <adamgreig> it works a treat
[11:56] <edmoore> also lol at going to answer the phone then coming back to see a language war and personal insults have happened
[11:56] <adamgreig> no issues ever
[11:56] <Vaizki> there are some things where goto is kign
[11:56] <Vaizki> king
[11:56] <adamgreig> yea, making terrible bugs
[11:56] <adamgreig> security issues
[11:56] <adamgreig> compromising systems
[11:56] <Vaizki> memory leaks
[11:56] <Vaizki> don't forget memory leaks
[11:56] <adamgreig> BASIC
[11:56] <adamgreig> all sorts of things where goto is king
[11:56] <adamgreig> good software engineering not among them
[11:57] <Vaizki> well 99% of the time if you think 'goto' you're doing it wrong
[11:57] <amell> gcc options change the way a program works? way to go!
[11:57] <Vaizki> but there is a 1%...
[11:57] <Vaizki> amell, no they don't
[11:58] <edmoore> -o3 often changes the way my program works :)
[11:58] <pc1pcl> well, the options change how the GCCprogram works for sure.
[11:58] <Vaizki> -Wswitch-break just prints warnings if you don't break; at the end of a case
[11:58] <amell> oh, was it just warnings. great
[11:58] <pc1pcl> and actually what edmoore says, too
[11:58] <zyp> if optimizations break your code, you should probably learn to not rely on undefined behavior
[11:59] <Vaizki> in C++ there's no reason to use goto ever.. because you can use exceptions and then GCC will do your goto magic for you :)
[11:59] <adamgreig> oh good, MISRA C bans fall through entirely
[11:59] <zyp> Vaizki, and RAII patterns for cleanup
[11:59] <adamgreig> amell: well hopefully you have -Werror anyway
[12:00] <zyp> Vaizki, using goto for cleanup paths in C functions is the only good use I've seen so far
[12:00] <adamgreig> lecture time, have fun everyone
[12:00] <Vaizki> yes, that's the 1%
[12:00] <adamgreig> ps c drools
[12:01] <craag> javascript! javascript! javascript!
[12:01] <Vaizki> node.js!
[12:01] <lz1dev> io.js*
[12:01] <craag> espressuino!
[12:01] <jonsowman> i am sad
[12:02] <edmoore> i think casting a pointer to another type then dereferencing is undefined in c, technically
[12:02] <edmoore> but it's quite useful
[12:02] <lz1dev> here be dragons
[12:02] <edmoore> infact generally in embedded the undefined stuff becomes more useful
[12:02] <edmoore> maybe because i still think slightly in assembly
[12:03] <edmoore> i'm happy to use memcpy on a pc to do similar things
[12:03] <pc1pcl> might be better off with inline assembly in such cases where you basically want a straight mapping from c to machine
[12:03] <edmoore> for sure
[12:03] <lz1dev> http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/real_programmers.png
[12:04] <pc1pcl> abstraction, highlevel languages are usually nice, but once you lose track of the underlying hardware, or never had track of it in the first place, you're probably in dangerous waters..
[12:04] <edmoore> i think the rules are different in very restricted resource embedded stuff lz1dev
[12:04] <Vaizki> that would cover 99% of people writing the software you use every day
[12:04] <edmoore> especially in some architectures that don't map themselves to C very well
[12:04] <Vaizki> --> pc1pcl
[12:05] <pc1pcl> Vaizki: yes, probably that is 'unfortunate'
[12:05] <lz1dev> edmoore: isnt that becoming less true today
[12:05] <pc1pcl> you see the same kind of things go wrong in other forms of 'programming' too, though.
[12:05] <lz1dev> with all the small PCs
[12:05] <lz1dev> rpi etc
[12:05] <edmoore> 'less true' i suppose?
[12:05] <pc1pcl> e.g. someone writing a business process/procedure that doesn't work in practice.
[12:06] <edmoore> but a vague statement about 'the way industry is going' doesn't really affect how you have to code to actually do things with the hardware infront of you
[12:06] <edmoore> lz1dev, and that's what i mean
[12:06] <edmoore> the rpi is not really embedded compared to the embedded i'm talking about
[12:07] <edmoore> they're PCs shrunk down rather than microcontrollers expanded up
[12:07] <pc1pcl> lz1dev: hopefully, but I think most people learn to program first and about logic gates, timing and hardwary stuff later, if at all.
[12:07] <lz1dev> im sure most CS courses touch on that at least
[12:07] <edmoore> i'm talking about when embedded means 1k or ram rather than your rpi embedded which has 1G of ram
[12:07] <edmoore> of ram*
[12:07] <edmoore> but yes i almost certainly wouldn't be bothering with any of this on an rpi
[12:08] <Vaizki> I think embedded means a computer that is embedded into a larger electomechanical system to control and monitor its operation as a single system
[12:08] <lz1dev> ok, maybe arduino is a better example
[12:08] <edmoore> even the sexy new NEON instructions on the new one are probably best left to be sued by someone else's library
[12:08] <edmoore> used*
[12:08] <lz1dev> you have limited space, timers etc
[12:08] <pc1pcl> CS probably is more about Maths than electrical engineering, and I guess most people that go into EE/CS/Maths etc. already 'learned how to program' way earlier anyway
[12:09] <lz1dev> dunno my CS course touched on all these things
[12:10] <lz1dev> 2nd year we had to build a cpu from just gates
[12:10] <pc1pcl> Even when I was 7 or 8 and we got this fancy home computer, that you probably might be able to understand at a hardware level, you learned a high level language first.
[12:11] <edmoore> never did CS so can't comment, all i was saying is that it's not totally unexpected to have to use assembly in embedded (as defined above) to do things, and the threshold at which you might do it is probably a lot lower than on a pc
[12:11] <edmoore> and in some cases you have no choice anyway - you have to start up the micro in asm, for example
[12:11] <lz1dev> im pretty sure a lot of people havent even seen assembly :)
[12:12] <edmoore> but yes, this is increasingly less the case, especially with all these nice 32bit arm micros invading the territory previously held by avrs and pics and 8051s and so on
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[12:12] <pc1pcl> lz1dev: I think there's different things called CS that range from 'pure informatics/maths' to 'electrical engineering' anyway ;)
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[12:12] <edmoore> arm has just a generic flat memory space and you can just tell it where to put the stack
[12:12] <edmoore> the old pic architecture (TRIGGER WARNING) had an 8-level deep hardware stack that could only old a PC pointer
[12:13] <edmoore> try and make C work with that kind of bullshit, you'll get hives
[12:13] <amell> the old 26 bit arm was fun.
[12:13] <lz1dev> isn't great that you don't have to deal with that so much today?
[12:14] <edmoore> yes, but only because there are things like a cortex m0
[12:14] <edmoore> which can do similar stuff in as few joules
[12:14] <edmoore> as that's basically the metric for a lot of this low power embedded stuff - how much work you can do per joule
[12:14] <edmoore> the 32 bit core is more power hungry per cycle but the instructions are generally more powerful so you need fewer cycles
[12:15] <edmoore> it could easily be other, but we're lucky arm have put so much effort into this area
[12:21] <Vaizki> and it's not just ARM, we have MSP430 for example as well
[12:21] <Vaizki> single flat memory space with everything mapped in nicely
[12:22] <edmoore> they're meant to be pretty good for power consumption too, as i understand
[12:22] <edmoore> (never used one)
[12:22] <edmoore> though i did look at their FRAM parts quite closely once for something - a very interesting range
[12:22] <Vaizki> yea I have not played with the FRAM parts
[12:22] <jonsowman> they have some nice features
[12:23] <jonsowman> wish the test/debug protocol wasn't closed source though
[12:23] <jonsowman> it means a lot of faff
[12:23] <Vaizki> they are nice because they are aimed at mixed signal (analog/digital) applications
[12:23] <Vaizki> so you get good collection of adcs etc
[12:23] <Vaizki> ARM is catching up on those though
[12:23] <edmoore> well
[12:23] <edmoore> arm doesn't have much to do with that aspect
[12:23] <edmoore> it's not their problem
[12:24] <Vaizki> ok well parts with arm core
[12:24] <edmoore> and the micros with arm cores that i've used recently have been extremely good in that regard
[12:24] <Vaizki> yes lots has happened in the last 5 years
[12:24] <Vaizki> and cortex-m0+ just rocks
[12:24] <edmoore> like my £1.50 cortex m0 part has several 12 bit adcs with good noise performance, a 12 bit dac, and the timers (stm's) are the best i've seen on any micro
[12:26] <jasiek> edmoore: what do you use?
[12:27] <Vaizki> STM32F04?
[12:28] <jonsowman> are those available yet?
[12:31] <Vaizki> http://fi.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=stm32f042
[12:31] <Vaizki> seems to be?
[12:31] <jonsowman> oh cool
[12:31] <jonsowman> not on farnell yet
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[12:49] <edmoore> jasiek, http://uk.farnell.com/MarketingProductList?storeId=10151&catalogId=15001&langId=44&orderCode=2431225,2444623,2444624,2444625,2444626,2444627,2444628,2444629,2444630&CMP=e-email-200115-STM
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[13:06] <alxwntr> Don't know if there's anyone about at the moment, but I was just looking into android apps to send gps location via sms
[13:06] <alxwntr> I wondered if anyone had any experience
[13:06] <alxwntr> it was recommended that I include this as a backup locatoras it's my first launch
[13:07] <alxwntr> This one seems promising:
[13:07] <alxwntr> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.runninghusky.spacetracker
[13:20] <x-f_> Keywords: (..), awesome, pew pew laserbeams.
[13:21] <x-f_> to have something as a backup on first launch is a sensible idea
[13:22] <x-f_> test that app as much as you can, put the phone in a metal box/basement/vault/.. to simulate GPS and GSM signal loss, see how it reacts, etc
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[13:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PI_SKY_PLUS - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=PI_SKY_PLUS
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[13:30] <Vaizki> hmpf AF5LI-11 seems to be lost, wanted to catch it on APRS at least
[13:34] <DrLuke> Woohoo, just got a reply from the DFS about launching balloons in germany
[13:34] <DrLuke> you have to coordinate with all countries your balloon might enter
[13:34] <DrLuke> fun times
[13:36] <daveake> I think it's where your balloon is planned to, or likely to, enter those countries
[13:36] <daveake> Not just "might" as in "might if you mess up the fill"
[13:37] <lz1dev> is that a requirements or more a guideline ?
[13:37] <lz1dev> requirement*
[13:39] <DrLuke> requirement
[13:39] <DrLuke> daveake: I agree
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[13:41] <pc1pcl> still, for a float you'd end up with a 'nice' list of countries to include. And I guess even for something that just goes up and down, you could end up with several 'landern' to deal with?
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[13:44] <daveake> I think it's coming from this http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2012:281:0001:0066:EN:PDF
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[13:45] <Vaizki> umm how high do countries go? :)
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[13:45] <daveake> See appendix 2 (mainly)
[13:45] <lz1dev> Vaizki: nearest planetary system
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[13:46] <alxwntr> Thanks x-f
[13:46] <alxwntr> (sorry, my connexion fell over and I couldn;t get back for a while)
[13:46] <Vaizki> are you sure the eu rules apply also to unguided light balloons of pure meteorological use?
[13:46] <alxwntr> I'll give that app a go and see how I get on
[13:47] <LunarWork> Vaizki, the text explicitly says so at certain points
[13:47] <Vaizki> 2.2. An unmanned free balloon, other than a light balloon used exclusively for meteorological purposes and operated
[13:47] <Vaizki> in the manner prescribed by the competent authority, shall not be operated across the territory of another State
[13:47] <Vaizki> without authorisation from the other State concerned.
[13:47] <Vaizki> that's what I found quickly
[13:47] <daveake> that's the one
[13:48] <pc1pcl> Vaizki: I think there was something 'messed up' in recent german legislation that removed the exception in local law?
[13:48] <Vaizki> so if your payload is 2kg or less, you're always a light balloon
[13:48] <Vaizki> LunarWork, where does it say that?
[13:48] <LunarWork> pc1pcl, that's how I understood the post in the mailing list
[13:48] <daveake> 4kg
[13:49] <LunarWork> Vaizki, I just reread it, the sentence you posted is the one
[13:49] <daveake> Well 4kg unless it's dense
[13:49] <LunarWork> the rest ist mainly about medium and heavy
[13:49] <Vaizki> sure there's even a nice graph
[13:49] <LunarWork> yea
[13:49] <daveake> Looks like the USA stuff afair
[13:49] Nick change: shenki_ -> shenki
[13:50] <pc1pcl> so that might have a knock on effect until the local laws are fixed up. And EU laws/directives don't really work 'directly', but always through local laws that implement them (IANAL though)
[13:50] <Vaizki> I think the main thing is the meteorological purpose.. slap a label on it which says "high altitude meteorogical measurement & reporting"
[13:50] <Vaizki> pc1pcl, at least here in finland that directive was implemented almost word for word
[13:50] <LunarWork> but when I get it right, a >2 kg balloon can be heavy if the rope breaking strength is above 230 N?
[13:51] <infaddict> UK guys - any recommendation for balloons and parachute buying online?
[13:51] <Vaizki> LunarWork, yes
[13:51] <Vaizki> but 230N..
[13:51] <LunarWork> yea
[13:51] <LunarWork> not really gonna happen I suppose
[13:52] <Vaizki> it's 23kg at sealevel gravity
[13:52] <LunarWork> yea
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[13:53] <pc1pcl> biggest weakness for an advocate of the devil to bring up to me seems the 'exclusive meteorlogical purposes', which these things arguably aren't.
[13:54] <daveake> ^ rubber and plastic for hab
[13:54] <daveake> Also you need to be in the met office
[13:54] <daveake> oh sorry you don't
[13:54] <daveake> "and operated in the manner prescribed by the competent authority,"
[13:55] <daveake> misread that
[13:55] <pc1pcl> unless that manner states you have to be a trained metofficeworker ;)
[13:55] <daveake> :)
[13:55] <infaddict> thx Dave, I nearly bought my payload from that site but the calculated P&P was crazy so I went somewhere else
[13:55] <daveake> buy from that site
[13:55] <daveake> make Steve rich
[13:55] <daveake> then he'll retire and I'll get his fun jobs
[13:55] <infaddict> i tried but P&P for a poly box and some rope was nearly £20
[13:55] <infaddict> so i went elsewhere
[13:56] <alxwntr> Ha! x-f, I just worked out why you mentioned laserbeams...
[13:56] <alxwntr> [slow on the uptake]
[13:56] <x-f_> :)
[13:57] <LunarWork> talk to you later
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[13:58] <infaddict> guessing my final payload weight is critical to balloon and parachute size so probably a bit early for buying them
[13:58] <daveake> yup
[13:59] <daveake> Often it's the first thing people ask
[13:59] <daveake> Yet it's about the last thing you need to know
[13:59] <infaddict> is there a calculator or help for payload weight to sizing? i'm guessing its on wiki so will go search there.
[14:00] <adamgreig> http://habhub.org/calc
[14:00] <infaddict> perfect! Dave+zeuzbot = winning team ;-)
[14:01] <daveake> sadly the direct link is shorted than my search command
[14:01] <daveake> -d+r
[14:01] <daveake> but mine includes a hint to do your own searching :)
[14:02] <infaddict> indeed, if i knew it was called a burst calculator i wouldve found it. my problem most of the time is struggling to know the terms to search for.
[14:02] <daveake> sure :)
[14:03] <daveake> Steve's balloon page has a calculator too
[14:04] <infaddict> great, bookmarked for when i need it.
[14:04] <infaddict> cheers
[14:04] <infaddict> think i pretty much have all pieces of the jigsaw planned except GSM backup
[14:05] <daveake> When you use the calculator, you need to tell it how high you want to get, or the ascent rate. Use the latter, and set to 5m/s
[14:05] <infaddict> great will do, tried with some fictional values (1.2kg payload, 5m/s, 1000 balloon)
[14:05] <infaddict> do i need to do similar calcs for parachute side?
[14:05] <daveake> I don't know if you have a max altitude in mind, but around 30km is fine
[14:05] <infaddict> *size
[14:06] <daveake> Steve's chute page has a calc for that
[14:06] <infaddict> "as high as possible" - bet all the the new lads say that
[14:06] <daveake> Agsin (as it happens) 5m/s is fine
[14:06] <Vaizki> btw, if a small magnetic valve was used to let out extra gas from the balloon at altitude (to prevent bursting), would it still be "unguided"?
[14:08] <infaddict> dave, that last comment, presume that was related to descent right?
[14:09] <infaddict> Vaizki - what crazy idea have you planned?!
[14:09] <Vaizki> oh nothing, just thinking aloud
[14:10] <infaddict> ;-)
[14:10] <infaddict> i'm really not looking forward to adding up everything i've spent in the last 2 weeks on this new project! Having fun though ;-)
[14:11] <Vaizki> adding up as in costs?
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[14:11] <infaddict> yep!
[14:11] <infaddict> hopefully a lot will be re-usable if I find my first payload lol
[14:12] <infaddict> plus i've started from complete 0 including solder gear, electronics kit etc.
[14:12] <Vaizki> well the only money I've spent so far is an order from Upu
[14:12] <Vaizki> for some ntx2b-fa and lora
[14:12] <Vaizki> but early days
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[14:21] <infaddict> Vaizki are you planning on using RTTY or DominoEx?
[14:22] <Vaizki> rtty unless someone gives a good reason for dominoex :)
[14:22] <infaddict> yer me too - plenty of code for both but RTTY seems simpler and "works"
[14:22] <infaddict> sadly i cant actually test or build anything till my parts arrive
[14:23] <mfa298> rtty is probably the simpler one to understand and code.
[14:23] <infaddict> Yep. Is it best practice to use parity checking (e.g. odd)?
[14:23] <infaddict> guessing radio is a noisy medium so need parity?
[14:23] <mfa298> dominoex may cope better with some noise and weaker signals, but is more reliant on getting the tone spacing and timings correct
[14:24] <Vaizki> dominoex seems to be 1 nibble per baud and additional varicoding makes it much more efficient than rtty
[14:24] <mfa298> we don't use parity on individual bytes but there's a checksum at the end which give the same result
[14:25] <infaddict> ah right. is checksum for each byte?
[14:25] <Vaizki> no for whole sentence
[14:25] <infaddict> ok
[14:25] <Vaizki> I guess 7n2 is pretty normal
[14:25] <mfa298> dominoEX16 gives a similar speed to 50 baud rtty. Although rtty can be pushed to much higher speeds (600 has been used a few times)
[14:25] <Vaizki> 2 stop bits
[14:26] <infaddict> what is 7n2?
[14:26] <infaddict> checksum?
[14:26] <Vaizki> 7 data bits, no parity, 2 stop bits
[14:27] <Vaizki> the code you linked earlier with rtty transmission from ISR was 7n2
[14:27] <infaddict> ok so the byte being sent. 7 bit ascii + 2 stop bits.
[14:27] <infaddict> yep sry just never saw it written as 7n2
[14:27] <infaddict> it also had the crc16 checksum too
[14:27] <Vaizki> umm are you 20 or so? :)
[14:28] <infaddict> nope 38
[14:28] <infaddict> why?
[14:28] <Vaizki> ok.. 9600,8,n,1 should be familiar?
[14:28] <mfa298> infaddict: this is what typical sentences look like http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol
[14:28] <infaddict> my age isnt the problem lol, its never being involved or exposed to serial/radio/other transmissions before!
[14:29] <Vaizki> ok.. just checking!
[14:29] <Vaizki> everyone has used a modem right ;)
[14:29] <infaddict> totally new to all of this hence sometimes asking silly q's. yep i recognise 9600 from old school modems yep
[14:29] <infaddict> although my first was 28000 i think
[14:29] <Vaizki> 28800
[14:29] <infaddict> thats it
[14:29] <infaddict> later upgraded to a 56k lol
[14:30] <Vaizki> my first was 110..
[14:30] <Vaizki> still twice as fast as rtty/50!
[14:33] <infaddict> wondering how often people refresh the key variables such as lat/long, temperature etc in their coding? clearly we are sending data at 50 baud, but option to refresh data slower than that e.g. every 5 or 10 seconds.
[14:34] <infaddict> or do people simply go real time
[14:35] <infaddict> its short flight for me so power isnt a big problem to keep everything alive
[14:37] <Vaizki> don't send more often than you need to?
[14:37] <Vaizki> enough crap on the ISM bands as is ;)
[14:37] <infaddict> well i'm sending at 50 baud continuously unless someone tells me thats a bad idea
[14:38] <infaddict> so if thats assumed, question of whether i transmit real time data or delay my GPS updates to every X seconds. so RTTY would be sending the same info for a period of time (X seconds).
[14:38] <Vaizki> GPS updates arrive at 1Hz
[14:39] <Vaizki> at least they used to in the early 90's when I last had a play :D
[14:39] <craag> nowadays they can be what you want them to be :)
[14:39] <Vaizki> ok nice
[14:39] <infaddict> ok, my GPS also allows a pull request i.e. i can ask for the info when i want it
[14:39] <craag> I think the ubloxes do something like 0.2Hz - 10Hz
[14:39] <infaddict> or it can push it to me in realtime
[14:40] <craag> If you're using powersave mode however
[14:40] <Vaizki> I would think 20 seconds between position updates would be enough?
[14:40] <craag> You'll be limited to 1Hz
[14:40] <craag> 50 baud, 1 position every ~20s is the normal
[14:41] <Vaizki> well at 50bps and 7n2 you're pretty much transmitting continuously to get one in every 20s if you have other telemetry in there
[14:41] <infaddict> ah craag thx
[14:41] <infaddict> yep need to work out sentence length and total time for a sentence tx i guess
[14:41] <craag> You can do stuff like having multiple sentence lengths
[14:41] <craag> and send:
[14:41] <craag> gps
[14:42] <craag> gps+data
[14:42] <craag> gps
[14:42] <craag> etc..
[14:42] <infaddict> ok and does the parser handle that fine?
[14:42] <Vaizki> I guess it's 12 symbols for 1 char with 7n2, so 50/12 = about 4 chars/sec?
[14:42] <craag> Yep, you just tell habitat about each of them
[14:42] <infaddict> aha did not know that - very useful
[14:43] <Vaizki> please put in some monty python jokes
[14:43] <Vaizki> to transmit now and then
[14:44] <infaddict> lol
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[14:45] <Vaizki> a very very unscrupulous or mean person would put in a single sentence from a long-lost 'round the world floater :D
[14:46] <Babs____> Ping upu
[14:47] <amell> maplin selling Pi 2 from stock at £39.99 - bit of a mark up there!
[14:47] <Miek> you can probably say that about anything at maplin :p
[14:48] <amell> farnell is 29.93 inc of VAT
[14:49] <Vaizki> I'm happy they got rid of armv6
[14:50] <mfa298> maplin has the advantage of having lots of easily accessible stores. Farnel/RS are harder to visit unless you live in the right place.
[14:50] <Vaizki> well for me personally it doesn't matter but for raspi in general
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[14:52] <edmoore> oh cool we're still talking about the rpi
[14:52] <mattbrejza> persumably schools dont pay that price, thats the whole idea of it in the first place, and why its supposed to be cheap
[14:52] <mattbrejza> yay pi...
[14:53] <lz1dev> it was J22 on RS
[14:53] <lz1dev> probably w/o VAT
[14:53] <craag> /topic Raspberry Pi Fan Club!! OMG V2!!! FASTER LEDS!!1!1!
[14:53] <edmoore> rs is w/o vat by default
[14:53] <edmoore> mostly sell to businesses
[14:54] <Vaizki> ack rpi 2 still uses LAN9514
[14:54] <craag> and rs was dumping delivery charge on people too
[14:54] <Vaizki> oh well
[14:54] <lz1dev> craag: isnt the delivery free for over 20 quid
[14:54] <lz1dev> ?
[14:54] <lz1dev> buisness account holders
[14:54] <lz1dev> welp..
[14:54] <craag> lz1dev: Unsure of specifics - just saw it on reddit. Apparently if you phoned up and whined they'd refund it.
[14:55] <Vaizki> ok I'll shut up about the rpi ;)
[14:55] <edmoore> just get a business account
[14:55] <edmoore> easy enough
[14:55] <edmoore> free next day delivery on everything, up to 8.30 the night before
[14:55] <edmoore> i couldn't function without it
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[14:58] <edmoore> through the esa grapevine
[14:58] <mfa298> what's this RS delivery charge, I've got into doing pickup from trade counter (but then it's only a small detour from the daily commute)
[14:58] <edmoore> someone asked their italian colleagues to perform a soak test of a bit of instrumentation
[14:59] <edmoore> apparently it didn't survive being immersed in water, says the italian asking what he should do next
[14:59] <Vaizki> :D
[15:00] <Vaizki> let's hope there's no water on mars
[15:04] <Ian_> Farnell, Element 14. free postage on orders over £20 ex VAT. Credit card orders free over £10 ex VAT.
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[15:06] <Ian_> Vaizki, 7n2 is ten symbols per character. 1 start, 7 data and 2 stop = 10. Nice figure for working out the character rate from the baud speed
[15:06] <Ian_> Not 12 . . . can't figure how you got that number.
[15:07] <Vaizki> oh right you don't need any silence between chars
[15:07] <Vaizki> I don't know either
[15:07] <Vaizki> been like 20 years since I played with serial on that level :)
[15:07] <Ian_> The stop bits are the silence. The receiver should effectively be ready to go for the next character half an element or less after the last data bit
[15:08] <Vaizki> yea
[15:08] <Ian_> In the case of 7n1, the receiver would have less time available to recover from a garble or framing error, so always best to give 2 stop bits where possible.
[15:09] <Vaizki> so is it going to kill some part of the chain (dl-fldigi or habitat) if I for some reason have a pause in the middle of a sentence?
[15:09] <edmoore> RS has delivered, speaking of
[15:09] <edmoore> bit late in the day but nvm
[15:10] <daveake> Vaizki habitat won't know
[15:10] <daveake> dl-fldigi won't care
[15:10] <Ian_> 1.5 stop bits is to do with RTTY, ITA2 the hardware for which was known as 7 & 1/2 unit equipment (1 start, 5 data and 1.5 stop)
[15:10] <daveake> Those watching will think that's something's broken in your code though :)
[15:11] <Vaizki> so how does dl-fldigi know the sentence has ended? it downloads sentence format?
[15:11] <Ian_> The potential problem with pauses during the data sentence is that agc or afc etc may decide to lose lock. An idle FSK transmitter should be radiating a holding mark
[15:11] <Ian_> condition.
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[15:13] <Vaizki> how do I do that? :)
[15:13] <Ian_> daveake, re the border crossing discussion earlier, would that be a form of baloon diplomacy (ex gunboar diplomacy). I can see the discussions with Best Korea :)
[15:15] <Ian_> Vaizki, how do you mean, How do I do that? If you enable your transmitter (Ntx2B) then by default it should radiate a holding mark. Start bit is spacing condition, stop bits are marking conditions, so tx enabled no data = marrk. For no transmission the tx EN pin would be disable the tx.
[15:17] <Vaizki> ok so if I just have a 100ms pause between 2 characters in a sentence (between second stop bit and the start bit), it's no problem=
[15:17] <Vaizki> ?
[15:17] <Vaizki> it's just a "slow typing" balloon ;)
[15:17] <Ian_> That is why you switch the transmitter on a few mS before radiating the first character. That's essentially it, lots of idle mark at manual typing speed.
[15:18] <Vaizki> right. and how does dl-fldigi know it has gotten end of sentence?
[15:18] <daveake> LF
[15:18] <Ian_> When operating manual RTTY to naval vessels, it was common to keep whacking the letter shift key whilst thinking, so that the RTTY receiver remained synchronised
[15:18] <Vaizki> hehe LF.. wow I am sloow
[15:19] <Vaizki> I am just collecting design constraints for the tracker software
[15:19] <Vaizki> how realtime do I need to be
[15:20] <daveake> Short gaps between characters aren't a problem, of course, but there's no good reason to put them there either
[15:20] <Vaizki> so as long as I'm not in the middle of a character, not very
[15:20] <Ian_> Get your fix, build the sentence, add the CRC check, radiate, rinse and repeat
[15:20] <daveake> ^ this
[15:21] <Vaizki> sure, I'm just anally thorough on this timing stuff because I know how easily it can go wrong
[15:21] <daveake> And if the "radiate" part is under a timer interrupt, as the hab gods intended, then the rest can be done in your main loop
[15:21] <daveake> This reducing downtime (when you're not txing data) to close to zero
[15:22] <Vaizki> yes, and unless I need another interrupt for something, there isn't going to be anything to mess up my radiate
[15:22] <Vaizki> and yes, I will remember to declare my ISR variables as volatile
[15:22] <Ian_> I'm not interrup orientated yet daveake. Another thing to polish
[15:22] <daveake> Makes things easier
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[15:23] <Vaizki> interrupts are your friend for sure
[15:23] <Vaizki> as long as you remember the volatile..
[15:23] <Ian_> It's a bit like thinking about recursion, a bit of getting into the correct mindset - not there yet . . .
[15:23] <Vaizki> I remember a few projects where I didn't
[15:24] <Vaizki> and it worked fine.. for a few days
[15:24] <edmoore> timers and interrupts are really the right way to use microcontrollers
[15:24] <edmoore> once you get them then you basically grok all the basics
[15:24] <edmoore> and can go and do things
[15:25] <Ian_> Have you told Fler.b how to test a soldering oven with bacon rashers prior to commissioning?
[15:25] <Vaizki> yea doing a single main loop with state machine and timing.. well some people like to solve rubik's cubes too
[15:25] <craag> Ian_: Causing all your pcbs for the next n years to smell faintly of bacon :D
[15:25] <Ian_> Not really difficult, but a different way of having to think about the loop.
[15:26] <Ian_> Sign of a quality board craag
[15:26] <Vaizki> craag, then you can use a dog to find the payload
[15:26] <Vaizki> or me
[15:26] <Ian_> :)
[15:26] <Vaizki> but out into the snowstorm...&
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[15:27] <Ian_> Take your tracker, we'll begin looking for you after the thaw
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[15:49] <pc1pcl> "keep whacking the letter shift key whilst thinking".. despite never having been an RTTY operator I tend to do this with shift or other supposedly 'nop' keys... (And get rewarded with 'do you want to turn on <accessability feature x??' prompts on windows.
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[16:01] <josep_> I have generated the payload of my next flight: {"type":"flight","approved":false,"name":"ohup","start":"2015-02-21T00:00:00+00:00","end":"2015-02-22T23:59:59+00:00","launch":{"time":"2015-02-21T08:00:00+00:00","timezone":"Europe/London","location":{"latitude":41.752692,"longitude":-0.360903}},"metadata":{"location":"lanaja, spain","project":"ohup lanaja"},"payloads":["96790f953b4d313d950e3a5d854a3996"]}
[16:01] <josep_> Do I need an approval right?
[16:02] <josep_> Here is the Doc ID 32a76756ed6b87a3e3aa5ca69047ad16
[16:02] <craag> josep_: Post that doc id in #habhub
[16:02] <josep_> ok
[16:05] <daveake> Payload documents don't need approval
[16:05] <daveake> Flight documents do
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[16:05] <daveake> Yu need a payload document for testing (to get the tracker on the map)
[16:06] <daveake> For the flight, you also need to create a flight doc, and that references the payload doc that you previously made
[16:06] <daveake> The flight doc tells people when the flight will be and allows them to set up their receiving stations more easily
[16:07] <craag> The last doc id there is a flight doc
[16:07] <daveake> I know; I was just explaining how it works :)
[16:08] <craag> He seems to have that bit sussed, just getting some help with his payload doc in #habhub
[16:08] <daveake> ok
[16:08] <daveake> Slightly optimistic to set a date 3 weeks away :)
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[16:08] <craag> Spain, weather is always good there right?
[16:09] <daveake> Yeah it doesn't rain on balloons there
[16:10] <daveake> It was great doing the lohan thing - decide where you want to land then find the right spot to launch from
[16:10] <craag> :)
[16:10] <craag> temperature didn't look bad either
[16:10] <daveake> nope
[16:10] <daveake> The first flight went up slowly and burst over the mountains, so that was exciting
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[16:12] <edmoore> nice summer flights are quite satisfying
[16:13] <edmoore> no wind, lots of sun
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[16:56] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03OHUP - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=OHUP
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[17:12] <arjunnaha> daveake Will the pits board be compatiable with the raspberry pi 2?
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[17:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03OHUP_chase - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=OHUP_chase
[17:16] <mattbrejza> not sure why you would want to use a B in the first place
[17:17] <craag> arjunnaha: Yes it will - but you should only use it for dev, A+ for flight.
[17:18] <craag> There are some software tweaks that he's still working on with the new firmware however.
[17:18] <arjunnaha> not a b a 2 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31088908
[17:18] <craag> His twitter has updates on it.
[17:18] <craag> (2 is basically a superpowered B+)
[17:19] <mattbrejza> a a b a b b a?
[17:23] <fsphil> anyone tried something silly on it yet, like running Gnome 3?
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[17:25] <mfa298> fsphil: that doesn't sound that silly compared to running windows on it :p
[17:26] <arjunnaha> mfa298 ""For the last six months we've been working closely with Microsoft to bring the forthcoming Windows 10 to Raspberry Pi 2. Microsoft will have much more to share over the coming months," said a statement on the Raspberry Pi blog. "The Raspberry Pi 2-compatible version of Windows 10 will be available free of charge to makers.""
[17:26] <fsphil> this is true. though they are not running the full windows
[17:26] <mfa298> arjunnaha: I was aware of that hence my comment :)
[17:27] <arjunnaha> it will be like the arm version for the surface rt
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[17:52] <Vaizki> speaking of spain and catalunya, I will be there in 4 weeks..
[17:52] Action: Laurenceb has build a base station http://i.imgur.com/K9MD38U.jpg
[17:57] <prog> what's that?
[17:57] <Laurenceb> Rx/Tx system
[17:58] <prog> what do you use for tx?
[17:58] <Laurenceb> silabs si4463
[17:58] <Laurenceb> with usb interface via an stm32 - in the alu enclosure
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[18:00] <Laurenceb> its for uplink and downlink with a single yagi
[18:00] <prog> the si446X are full transceivers
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[18:00] <Laurenceb> yeah but im using RTTY for downlink so others can listen in
[18:01] <prog> how does the 4463 compare to airspy?
[18:01] <Laurenceb> you mean sensitivity wise?
[18:01] <prog> rf characteristics
[18:01] <Laurenceb> probably a few dB higher noise figure
[18:01] <Laurenceb> dunno about Rx performance
[18:02] <prog> looks like a good chip
[18:02] <prog> no IQ output though
[18:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03DIPERK1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=DIPERK1
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[18:03] <Laurenceb> it can do IQ output, but only with 4th order delta-sigma
[18:03] <Laurenceb> pita to demod
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[18:05] <daveake> arjunnaha Yes the PITS+ board works on the Pi2 model B
[18:05] <arjunnaha> thx
[18:05] <daveake> Needs latest wiringpi (released today) and latest pits (yet to be released)
[18:05] <daveake> Just need to get the DS18B20 working
[18:06] <daveake> LoRa works too
[18:06] <daveake> However, for flight, use an A+
[18:07] <arjunnaha> Will be buying board once I receive uksa grant
[18:08] <daveake> RPi site is *still* in maintenance mode
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[18:17] <fsphil> my board still hasn't been despatched
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[18:31] <diegoesep> If only the new rpi had a power management support :)
[18:31] <diegoesep> so that we can suspend it, then resume it later, it would be awesome for battery usage!
[18:37] <daveake> Using something lower power in the first place might be a lot more awesome :p
[18:37] <mfa298> daveake: there are some kernel modules for the DS18B20
[18:38] <daveake> I know; it used to work but now it doesn't
[18:38] <daveake> probably just needs a module enabled
[18:38] <daveake> I don't currently have devtree enabled (because then everything will break)
[18:39] <mfa298> w1-gpio and w1-therm. although it looks like they're coded to a specific gpio (4?) but you can override with a cmdline value.
[18:39] <daveake> Yeah we're using that pin, deliberately :)
[18:39] <daveake> It used to be fixed (needing a kernel recompile to change)
[18:39] <mfa298> although I'm using a B (I've not even upgraded to a B+ yet)
[18:40] <mfa298> I did find the value looked to be a bit high though
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[18:41] <daveake> Someone did spot this DS18B20 issue before, but as the forums are down I can't find out what the result was
[18:42] <mfa298> I need to take a thermometer into work sometime as the room I've got one in is normally hot anyway but I'm not sure I believe it's as hot as the ds18b20 says
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[19:03] <daveake> Ah, my mistake, DS18B20 does work; I was using an old PITS+ board
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[19:06] <diegoesep> so far the rpi + camera has the best image quality for the weight/cost regarding HAB, but the power consumption for 2 hours run is still too high
[19:06] <mfa298> I suspect a cheap canon with chdk is cheaper and better quality
[19:07] <mfa298> but a Pi + Camera lets you (relatively easily) send back live images.
[19:07] <diegoesep> I'm looking for alternatives solutions (like alcam oem) with lower power consumption or trying to suspend then resum this rpi
[19:07] <mfa298> which isn't so easy with a canon camera (although chrisstubbs got something going)
[19:07] <mclane_> but the picam is very light compared to a canon + some tracker
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[19:08] <diegoesep> the weight of the canon camera is still too much
[19:08] <daveake> Lighest Canon that takes AA's is 125g, + 30g for the AAs
[19:08] <diegoesep> but I agree that the picture quality is very very good :)
[19:08] <daveake> RPi will come in less than that
[19:08] <diegoesep> with canon
[19:08] <mclane_> and you can make short video clips with a break in between to save some power
[19:09] <diegoesep> I'm expecting that the alcam oem can be a solution but the 100k limitation for image size may be an issue (and the 2mpixels sensor compared to the 5mp of the rpi)
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[19:09] <mclane_> we did 30 s video clips every 2 minutes
[19:10] <diegoesep> in fact I'm so impressed about the quality of the picture of the rpicam I had with my hab flight, that I don't want to have lower quality pics for my next flight ;)
[19:11] <diegoesep> the ov5647 is doing a very good job and the default lens of the rpi cam is good for hab flight (no fog)
[19:11] <mfa298> do you want to send back live images (ssdv style) or are you just taking pictures to collect after recovery
[19:12] <diegoesep> I wanted to do both for my next flight
[19:12] <diegoesep> with low quality pic for the ssdv and high quality for the sdcard
[19:12] <diegoesep> and hopefully recover the payload :)
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[19:15] <diegoesep> so one of my plan was to use a rpi for storing pic on sdcard, and sending low res/quality pic with ssdv
[19:16] <diegoesep> or to use a alcam oem to do the same
[19:16] <diegoesep> but the quality of image may be not so good for the pics on sdcard
[19:16] <mfa298> for doing it all easily with one device I suspect Pi is the only real option
[19:16] <diegoesep> and even for the ssdv images because the rpi camera algorithm is very good for handling extreme lighting conditions
[19:17] <diegoesep> if only I can find way to suspend the rpi 90% of the time
[19:18] <diegoesep> and spend the 10% by setting up camera exposure and storing it on sdcard sending it by radio
[19:18] <mfa298> I'm not sure how easily you can use the alcam. I think when I looked before I got the impression the only real communication you have with the arduino is a trigger button.
[19:19] <diegoesep> the alcam can be complely driven by UART with a set of commands
[19:19] <diegoesep> take pic, store pic with name xxx, get pic xxx data over UART
[19:19] <diegoesep> so a arduino or cortexM3 can be used between the alcamoem and the radio module
[19:19] <mclane_> what flight time are you targeting?
[19:20] <diegoesep> 2hours for ascent phase at least
[19:20] <diegoesep> so around 3hours / 3h30 total time
[19:20] <diegoesep> for the pictures
[19:20] <mclane_> why are you worrying using the pi? This can be easily done with 4 aa's
[19:22] <diegoesep> I'm trying to decrease power usage, hence battery weight , then maximizing balloon burst height
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[19:23] <mfa298> trying to use the alcam with an atmega (the chip behind the arduino) and sending ssdv sounds like it could be quite a challenge (if you can get the file in small blocks it might be doable but memory will be tight)
[19:23] <diegoesep> yes this could be fun project mfa298 :)
[19:24] <mclane_> then I recommend the new raspi a+ with picam - this runs for at least 5h on 3 AA's
[19:24] <mfa298> as mclane_ said 4 decent AA cells should get you more than enough time on the Pi, + Better camera + easier environment to code it in.
[19:25] <mfa298> with the Pi you can also run the daveake patented algorithm (take lots of pictures and choose the biggest file size in the set to send)
[19:25] <mclane_> I have tried a uart cam with an arm cortex m0 2 years ago - the picam is WAY better!
[19:26] <mclane_> (lpc1227)
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[19:26] <mclane_> ssdv was not so difficult
[19:26] <mclane_> with the lpc1227
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[19:31] <diegoesep> ok thans mclane_ mfa298 !
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[19:32] <mclane_> convinced diegoesp? ;-)
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[19:43] <diegoesep> yes mclane_ the rpicam is still best solution yet for HAB pictures if using >1200g balloon I think
[19:43] <diegoesep> for floaters this is another story :)
[19:44] <fsphil> picam is annoyingly good, though similar quality sensors do exist that can be driven from microcontrollers
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[19:47] <Vaizki> umm how would a rpi a+ and picam + a few batteries end up > 1.2kg?
[19:48] <fsphil> he means a 1200g balloon
[19:49] <Vaizki> ah
[19:49] <Vaizki> my noobness leaks out again
[19:49] <fsphil> though it's light enough to fly on even smaller balloons too
[19:49] <Vaizki> pffssshhhhhtttt
[19:50] <fsphil> I've only flown them under 1600g's, but the intent both times was to float it
[19:50] <Vaizki> so you had solar?
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[19:51] <fsphil> nah, a 1600g typically only floats for 24 hours
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[19:51] <fsphil> just needed enough batteries to last that long
[19:51] <daveake> Pi+cam is light enoug
[19:52] <daveake> It's the batteries for floating that are an issue
[19:52] <daveake> That said, most latex floaters only last 1 day anyway
[19:53] <Vaizki> is it sunlight uv that kills tms?
[19:53] <Vaizki> them
[19:53] <daveake> I don't think so
[19:54] <daveake> More the fact that they get stretched on day 1, then the balloon drops at night, then goes back up and stretches the balloon for a second time
[19:55] <daveake> They tend to burst at that point (in the morning as the sun comes up and the balloon warms up), and not later in the day which is what you'd expect if it wa UV
[19:55] <daveake> s
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[19:56] <diegoesep> yes I agree that the weight of pi + cam isn't an issue
[19:56] <diegoesep> it is the power consumption of the PI that is an issue for floaters :)
[19:59] <Vaizki> there was a fuel cell kickstarter going on.. it was a 400mA sustained output USB charger which was quite light :)
[19:59] <Vaizki> lmgtfy
[19:59] <daveake> Yes and no. 24 hours from a Pi is easy enough. 24 hours is a long time for a latex floater. 24 hours in floater season will take it out of range of SSDV listeners anyway.
[20:00] <Vaizki> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/265641170/kraftwerk-highly-innovative-portable-power-plant
[20:00] <daveake> So you've got 3 things all with a practical limit of about 24 hours
[20:00] <Vaizki> 200g with gas
[20:02] <Vaizki> 56Wh
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[20:03] <Vaizki> is what they're claiming
[20:03] <fsphil> -15C minimum temp
[20:03] <Vaizki> well you get the heating for free
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[20:04] <Vaizki> not sure if it works in low-oxygen atmosphere though
[20:04] <fsphil> the low pressure will be more of an issue
[20:05] <lz1dev> kraftwerk directly transforms gas into electricity
[20:05] <lz1dev> im no expert, but thats sounds like bs
[20:05] <Vaizki> hehe
[20:05] <fsphil> peltier effect
[20:05] <Vaizki> a million dollars worth of bs
[20:05] <fsphil> ok, not direct, have to burn it first
[20:05] <fsphil> yea that's not going to work
[20:06] <pc1pcl> I think it's just a way to differentiate between what happens in a fuelcell versus gas power plant..
[20:06] <fsphil> wonder how much power you could store with just compressed gas
[20:06] <fsphil> and a little turbine
[20:06] <lz1dev> probably not a lot
[20:07] <fsphil> yea. plus heavy container
[20:07] <pc1pcl> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compressed-air_vehicle
[20:07] <fsphil> that's what I was thinking of. not scary at all if you crash it :)
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[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[20:09] <Vaizki> so those month-long floaters, they're all pico-trackers on mylar balloon?
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[20:10] <daveake> It says 56Wh, so that's a bit more than a large (10Ah) battery power bank
[20:10] <daveake> Not enormously better then
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[20:11] <lz1dev> and you have to buy gas
[20:11] <lz1dev> which is probably more expensive and fiddly than pluging it into the wall
[20:11] <daveake> yup
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[20:11] <Vaizki> yea doesn't sound like a huge bonus
[20:11] <Vaizki> better off running 18650 cells :P
[20:11] <fsphil> awful lot of hardware to lose too
[20:11] <lz1dev> smells like your typical ks scam
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[20:12] <fsphil> nobody cares about losing some batteries
[20:12] <Vaizki> which is what's in the powerbank anyway
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[20:12] <lz1dev> my acer netbook's original battery
[20:12] <lz1dev> is just 3x18650
[20:12] <lz1dev> with a controller board
[20:12] <Vaizki> I think most laptop batteries are made of 18650 cells
[20:13] <lz1dev> im not certain, the chinese replacement i bought
[20:13] <lz1dev> is bigger
[20:13] <lz1dev> so perhaps 6x9v
[20:13] <lz1dev> vOv
[20:14] <lz1dev> i certainly hope its not one of those 6000mah 18650 from ebay
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[20:16] <pc1pcl> I guess yuu could keep the gas in storage longer for use when mains fails, compared to charged battery.
[20:17] <Vaizki> I wonder if it's easy to buy BR cells
[20:17] <Vaizki> must google :)
[20:20] <Vaizki> no too many Li-CFx cells around
[20:21] <lz1dev> isnt CF gas banned?
[20:22] <Vaizki> Li-CFx is Lithium Carbon Monofluoride
[20:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LORA1 - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=LORA1
[20:24] <Vaizki> 68 grams for 8.4Ah @ 3V.. 4x energizer L91 in 2S2P is 60 grams, 6Ah @ 3V
[20:24] <Vaizki> so not worth it
[20:25] <Vaizki> there's always news of revolutionary battery technology "within 2-5 years" and NOTHING HAPPENS :)
[20:25] <Vaizki> I hate that
[20:26] <lz1dev> iirc current revolution is film batteries or something
[20:27] <Vaizki> yea thin film this and that
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[20:41] <kevtheskin> Hello everyone. Sorry to ask this question again. Where on the habhub tracker page is the frequency in use list. I read in the radio user mag that the frequency list is there but I cant find it lol. Anyone help
[20:42] <gonzo_nb> it is sometimes in the right hand sidebar
[20:42] <gonzo_nb> you can bring it up with the ? option
[20:42] <gonzo_nb> otherwise look on the group for a posting
[20:43] <gonzo_nb> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ukhas
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[20:43] <kevtheskin> the ? option on here
[20:44] <gonzo_nb> there are some icons on the top right
[20:44] <gonzo_nb> one is a big question mark!
[20:44] <gonzo_nb> on the habhub tracking page
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[20:49] <lz1dev> kevtheskin: http://i.imgur.com/WcONc9m.png
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[20:57] <Reb-SM0ULC> cool with atsat floating at 24km
[20:57] <Laurenceb__> latex envelope?
[20:58] <Reb-SM0ULC> looking it up
[21:00] <Reb-SM0ULC> a bit annoying with HAMs not using their calll on balloons with APRS
[21:03] <Reb-SM0ULC> Laurenceb__: can't find any info
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[21:03] <Mark_B> Evening
[21:03] <Laurenceb__> im guessing it must be latex
[21:04] <kevtheskin> Hey gonzo thanks for info check out the ? but the box is blanc
[21:05] <gonzo_nb> if there are no pending launches, that is prob the case
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[21:05] <Babs> evening - Eagle question - when i zoom in on a schematic and other components disappear off the side of the viewable window, how do i pan around to see the remaining components?
[21:05] <Babs> the scroll bar isn't highlighted
[21:05] <Babs> is this because i have the light version?
[21:06] <gonzo_nb> kevtheskin, there are not that many balloons in the winter.
[21:07] <kevtheskin> Was looking at pi_sky_plus ?
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[21:13] <Mark_B> <Babs> I'm using Eagle light too. I've just checked what happens when I zoom in; my scroll bars appear when components migrate beyond the screen limits.
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[21:14] <Upu> haha
[21:15] <Upu> welcome to Eagle babs
[21:15] <Babs> it is like they abandoned logic when they came to build it upu
[21:15] <Upu> ALT+F2 resets view window
[21:15] <Babs> ps have been thinking about your reaction wheel idea
[21:15] <Upu> ok
[21:16] <Babs> i reckon that on the one side, it is more efficient than mine
[21:16] <Babs> on the other, you may get an issue with precession
[21:17] <Babs> thanks upu
[21:17] <Upu> tbh as long as it stays where I want it to point I don't really care :)
[21:18] <Upu> not had chance to look at it today
[21:19] <kevtheskin> ?
[21:20] <Upu> looking at a method of keeping a payload pointing in a specific direction kevtheskin
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[21:27] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KG7IXX-11 after 0312 hours silence - 12http://tracker.habhub.org/#!qm=All&q=KG7IXX-11
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[21:32] <Babs> the problem will be i think that you will get a rocking motion (the precession bit)
[21:33] <Babs> the reason why you dont see it on the vid you sent me is because the person is sitting on a chair in contact with the ground
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[00:00] --- Wed Feb 4 2015