highaltitude.log.20150125

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[01:17] <OZ1SKY_Brian> gn
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[02:27] mazzanet (~mazzanet@unaffiliated/mazzanet) got lost in the net-split.
[02:27] mattbrejza (~mattbrejz@kryten.hexoc.com) got lost in the net-split.
[02:27] Reb-SM0ULC (davidl@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE) got lost in the net-split.
[02:27] Tiger^ (tygrys@moo.pl) got lost in the net-split.
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[02:50] Possible future nick collision: mheld
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[02:50] Possible future nick collision: nickjohnson
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[02:58] Possible future nick collision: wrea
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[03:00] nigelvh (~nigel@c-50-132-67-209.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) got lost in the net-split.
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[03:53] Nick change: Spee_Der -> Guest93115
[03:54] UpuWork (~UpuWork@smtp.nevis.co.uk) joined #highaltitude.
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[03:56] Guest93115 (446d707b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.68.109.112.123) left irc: Client Quit
[04:00] VK3IL (cb2387a5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.203.35.135.165) left irc: Quit: Page closed
[04:07] day- (~day@unaffiliated/day) joined #highaltitude.
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[04:10] Nick change: day- -> day
[04:58] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK4KL_chase - 12http://habhub.org/t/#!qm=All&q=VK4KL_chase
[04:58] NormanOK (6bcf2b74@gateway/web/freenode/ip.107.207.43.116) joined #highaltitude.
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[05:24] Nick change: Guest51659 -> nigelvh
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[07:29] Nick change: Devilhol1 -> Devilholk
[07:38] GargantuaSauce (~sauce@blk-224-183-12.eastlink.ca) left irc: Read error: Connection reset by peer
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[08:44] Nick change: guido -> Guest43062
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[09:05] paul_HAB-P1 (~paul_HABn@host165-120-28-232.range165-120.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[09:16] Guest43062 (~guido@s5596f950.adsl.online.nl) left irc: Quit: Leaving
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[10:24] pretec (~Matthias@port-92-195-6-164.dynamic.qsc.de) left irc: Quit: schwund
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[10:29] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
[10:30] <cm13g09> craag: ping
[10:36] Nick change: lilafisc1 -> lilafisch
[10:53] <lilafisch> cm13g09: o/
[10:53] <cm13g09> morning lilafisch
[10:54] <lilafisch> morning cm13g09
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[11:37] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03F6IPO-11 after 0310 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/t/#!qm=All&q=F6IPO-11
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[12:26] <PD5TON> Activities today?
[12:29] <fsphil> shortly, some lunch
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[12:29] <jcoxon> thanks fsphil
[12:30] <jcoxon> PD5TON, nothing in the calender
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[12:33] <fsphil> not a good time of the year for launches in general
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[13:09] <paul_HAB-P1> stupid question time. Working through the RTL demod guide and the streaming side says:
[13:09] <paul_HAB-P1> on client: netcat don.gle.ip.adr 8080 | play -t mp3 -
[13:09] <paul_HAB-P1> however for me, play moans about not being able to open '-'
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[13:09] <paul_HAB-P1> Am I missing something with play, or the stream?
[13:10] <fsphil> try directing netcat's output to a file, just to make sure it's actually sending data
[13:11] <paul_HAB-P1> super thats it, nothing coming through :)
[13:11] <paul_HAB-P1> thanks...
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[13:54] <infaddict> Hi everybody. Whats the rough external temperatures seen at burst point of a HAB? Also given a normal foam insulated payload, what sort of temperatures does the kit inside endure? Thanks!
[13:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Select temperarure and altitude on some real flights ? http://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/payload/5c4cb758379ba1ea677a2b77d96191b6
[13:56] <infaddict> aha perfect thx Geoff lemme take a look
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[13:58] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> you might need to go back beyond the last 15 flights to last year
[14:00] <infaddict> a couple of the recent ones suggest -15 to -20 minimum internal temp... will search some more
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[14:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> That's pretty typical, external down to -40 internal will vary depending on how its measured - often cpu temp - how much power is used
[14:03] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/payload/AURA4/4fc22bd7fed82b18112088dff85fa752#g/altitude,temperature_external,temperature_internal
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[14:13] <infaddict> is that a -40 internal?
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[14:23] <gonzo_m> depends how well insulated the electronics are, the thermal mass and how much heat they generate
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[14:24] <gonzo_m> -40deg c external is common to see
[14:24] <infaddict> thanks gonzo, but surely the internal temperature sensor is monitoring air temp inside the payload, so all those things are already taken care of in the reading?
[14:25] <infaddict> or can temp actually influence how the electronics make the reading (i.e. accuracy)?
[14:26] <gonzo_m> that is all down to your design
[14:26] <daveake> Outside can get to -50 or below; inside depends on insulation and power
[14:26] <daveake> If you have cameras then the inside will hardly get below zero
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[14:27] <daveake> Anyhoo, electronics and batteries (Energizer Lithium) are happy at -40 so you're unlikely to have a problem
[14:28] <infaddict> ok thanks guys really appreciate the advice
[14:28] <paul_HAB-P1> Fixed it, port clash on the BBB :-)
[14:28] <infaddict> trying to choose a microcontroller at present and trying to stick to 3.3v instead of 5v and do prefer Arduino (worked with them before) but not much choice at 3.3v
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[14:29] <daveake> If you want Arduino then the 3.V / 8MHz Mini Pro is an obvious choice
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[16:56] <paul_HAB-P1> Finally, reliable streaming from my BBB - ok I gotta push the codec but here's monitoring cockpit comms: sudo rtl_fm -M -f 118.82M | sox -t raw -r24k -es -b16 -c1 -V1 - -t mp3 - | socat -u - TCP-LISTEN:18080
[16:56] <paul_HAB-P1> :-) chuffed.
[16:57] <lz1dev> sudo  _ 
[16:57] <paul_HAB-P1> yeah - think I need to set the normal user in dialout
[16:58] <paul_HAB-P1> Oh hang on, don't need sudo since I moved the port number... :)
[16:59] <paul_HAB-P1> socat is cool also, a pull model so you can just browse to it and hit pla
[16:59] <paul_HAB-P1> play
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[17:12] <DrLuke> Upu: When will you have radiometrix HX-1 in stock again?
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[17:24] <Upu> hey DrLuke
[17:24] <Upu> they are in stock
[17:24] <Upu> sorry my stock system is rubbish
[17:24] <DrLuke> Upu: In the shopping cart it says "Products marked with *** are not available in the desired quantity or not in stock!"
[17:24] <DrLuke> and the HX-1 is marked :(
[17:24] <Upu> 800 ?
[17:25] <DrLuke> yes
[17:25] <Upu> how many did you order ?
[17:25] <DrLuke> 3, as that is the minimum
[17:25] <Upu> eh
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[17:25] <DrLuke> let me guess, you have some in stock, but less than 3? :P
[17:25] <Upu> no the minimum is 1 and I have 3 in stock :)
[17:25] <Upu> try now
[17:26] <Upu> you don't need to order 3 sorry
[17:26] happysat (~katpoep@85.151.11.57) got lost in the net-split.
[17:26] pc1pcl_ (~luteijn@5ED13723.cm-7-2a.dynamic.ziggo.nl) got lost in the net-split.
[17:26] Reb-SM0ULC (davidl@Psilocybe.Update.UU.SE) got lost in the net-split.
[17:26] <DrLuke> Oooh
[17:26] <DrLuke> I see now
[17:26] <Upu> mistake on my part
[17:26] <Upu> because I use parts in stuff like Habduino and PITS APRS board the stock is rarely correct
[17:27] <Upu> I do try keep up with it
[17:27] <DrLuke> Ah
[17:27] <Upu> but generally I suck at it :)
[17:27] <Upu> anyway should be ok now
[17:27] <Upu> if you want more than 3 I have some coming in this week
[17:27] <DrLuke> So you currently have 3 of them?
[17:27] <Upu> probably more
[17:27] <DrLuke> Ah fantastic
[17:27] <Upu> just put what you want
[17:27] <Upu> I'll sort it :)
[17:28] <DrLuke> Upu: I don't need it that soon, it's just a friend of mine was surprised that these modules are purchasable at all
[17:28] <Upu> 28th of Jan
[17:28] <DrLuke> and he's probably interested in buying some for non-hab purposes
[17:28] <Upu> nps
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[17:29] <DrLuke> And our HAB group will also buy one, so we'll most likely synergize ;P
[17:29] <Upu> cool :)
[17:30] <DrLuke> Now to read some APRS specs
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[17:31] <lz1dev> :[
[17:32] <DrLuke> I wonder why APRS has so many special cases and special purposes
[17:32] <DrLuke> why didn't they keep the protocol itself as general purpose as possible :/
[17:32] <lz1dev> because that would make sense
[17:33] <daveake> hah
[17:34] <daveake> Yes, the capability : complexity factor is low with APRS
[17:35] <DrLuke> :/
[17:35] <DrLuke> does anybody have some simple aprs for dummies link if I just want to transmit position data via aprs?
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[17:36] <daveake> I couldn't find one. I just used fsphil's code which is in the habduino repos on github
[17:36] <lz1dev> ^ maybe since it doesn't exist :)
[17:37] <lz1dev> suprisingly a decent piece of code for demodulating afsk also doesn't exist
[17:39] <DrLuke> Sheesh
[17:39] <DrLuke> if only somebody invented APRS2.0
[17:39] <DrLuke> and made it super simple :P
[17:40] <lz1dev> its not complicated
[17:40] <fsphil> just annoying
[17:40] <lz1dev> yes, but there aren't any good code examples available
[17:40] <lz1dev> nice and clean
[17:41] <edmoore> although rushed, my talk on gps tried to cover sdr demodulation in general, so if you understand the gps decoding you should find afsk quite simple
[17:42] <lz1dev> my dsp is rusty
[17:43] <edmoore> there's not much dsp to this stuff
[17:43] <edmoore> it's all pretty 1970s
[17:43] <fsphil> the talk covers a good chunk of what you'd need, apart from maybe low pass filtering
[17:44] <edmoore> nothing clever or adaptive
[17:44] <lz1dev> i want to write a inbrowser thingy
[17:44] <lz1dev> might as well link it
[17:44] <edmoore> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:ukhasconference2013
[17:45] <edmoore> gps parts [I..IV]
[17:45] <lz1dev> added to the group of tabs for watching
[17:46] <fsphil> I wrote an FM demodulator afterwards
[17:47] <edmoore> http://www.sp4comm.org/webversion.html
[17:47] <edmoore> if you want a general dsp text, there's your badger
[17:47] <fsphil> ooh that looks good
[17:47] <edmoore> i only flicked through it at high speed but it looks roughly like the stuff from uni and well written and presented
[17:47] <edmoore> pdf etc also available
[17:48] <lz1dev> we had dsp at uni
[17:48] <lz1dev> the guy had like 4 A4 two-sided papers that covered a lot
[17:48] <lz1dev> it was so simple it confused people :)
[17:48] <edmoore> i did do that thing where you keep distilling a course down to nothing
[17:49] <edmoore> where 'nothing' was a very dense few sides of a4
[17:49] <edmoore> but it took some work to get it down, more like aid memoirs to well understood stuff than expositional lecture notes
[17:49] <edmoore> also i have forgotten everything
[17:49] <edmoore> it's v despressing
[17:49] <lz1dev> i've got this pile
[17:49] <edmoore> having to do control theory for the first time since graduating, nominally the subject of my masters, and i'm so so rusty
[17:50] <lz1dev> and it scary since i don't remember whats in it
[17:50] <lz1dev> too scared too look at this point
[17:50] <qyx_> ololol
[17:50] <qyx_> edmoore: thanks
[17:50] <qyx_> looks like nice reading for evenings
[17:50] <edmoore> i was thinking of, at work, picking up a decent linear algebra text to bash through to reawaken some very old synapses
[17:51] <edmoore> and then boshing through all the state-space control stuff again
[17:51] <edmoore> gonna need a whole lot of mental wd-40
[17:53] <edmoore> i actually found an old copy of Strang 'Linear ALgebra and its applications' in a box of old shit someone gave me, i might bosh through that
[17:53] <lz1dev> cat book > brain
[17:55] <lz1dev> $ ls -l brain
[17:55] <lz1dev> brain -> /dev/null
[17:55] <lz1dev> :{
[17:55] <edmoore> that's what a degree looks like
[17:55] <lz1dev> now i feel sad
[18:00] <qyx_> uhm $75 for this book
[18:00] <qyx_> in an analog form
[18:02] <edmoore> normal text-book territory?
[18:05] <qyx_> amazon hard-cover
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[18:11] <KX5G> can someone explain what I am looking at n habhub.com? Not what I expected to see
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[18:12] <qyx_> KX5G: .org
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[18:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RTS_Chase_chase - 12http://habhub.org/t/#!qm=All&q=RTS_Chase_chase
[18:16] <Laurenceb__> http://picospace.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/PastedGraphic-121.png
[18:16] <Laurenceb__> mental
[18:19] <edmoore> propagation
[18:28] <SpeedEvil> Lies! Radio goes in straight lines!
[18:30] <lz1dev> there are no straight lines on the surface of sphere
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[18:33] <edmoore> they say of the acropolis where the parthenon is
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[18:53] <SpeedEvil> I think the greeks sold that to China last week
[18:53] <SpeedEvil> It's now in Beijing.
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[18:58] <gb73d> a straight line is the shortest distance between 2 points be they on a 2d or 3d space
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[19:04] <zyp> what about 4d spaces?
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[19:30] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:50] <Radioso> Does anyone know which band for JT9 that PS-31 might be transmitting at this time?
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[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> evening mclane_
[19:57] <mclane_> Hello Lunar_Lander
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> because you asked yesterday, I am currently writing down what we already have completed and what is still to be done for the second flight
[20:02] <mclane_> can I find that somewhere?
[20:03] <Lunar_Lander> one moment
[20:04] <mclane_> thanks!
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[20:08] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Radio so, look here picospace.net/
[20:09] <Radioso> Both 30m and 20m bands at same time?
[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> you're welcome
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[20:22] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Sry not the designer! You have to guess
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[20:22] <Radioso> OK. Tnx Geoff
[20:23] <Reb-SM0U1C> evevning
[20:25] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> See the FAQ on the site he has a schedule.
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[20:38] <Radioso> Found it! Schedule also on wsprnet.org/drupal/node/5246
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[20:45] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03DUTCHHAB after 036 days silence - 12http://habhub.org/t/#!qm=All&q=DUTCHHAB
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[20:47] <crmxdien> Would this be the right place to ask about long-duration HF balloons? Like PS-31? I'm interested in pico balloons with HF payloads but there doesn't seem to be much information about the projects themselves. Just tracking info. Any pointers?
[20:47] <Upu> hey crmxdien
[20:47] <Upu> as good as anywhere
[20:47] <Upu> wsprnet.org/drupal/node/5246
[20:48] <Upu> picospace.net
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[20:49] Nick change: day- -> day
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[20:49] <crmxdien> Thanks! Yes, I've seen these. I'm interested in details of the radio payload so I don't have to start from zero in building my own.
[20:49] <Upu> ah ok
[20:49] <Upu> well start simple
[20:50] <Upu> !wiki ntx2b +arduino
[20:50] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: No results for your query
[20:50] <crmxdien> Yep. That sounds right.
[20:50] <Upu> !wiki ntx2b
[20:50] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: No results for your query
[20:50] <Upu> !wiki ntx2
[20:50] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: Wiki page 03linkingarduinotontx2 (guides) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[20:50] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: Wiki page 03ntx2 (guides:radio_modules) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:radio_modules:ntx2
[20:50] <Upu> get there eventually
[20:50] <crmxdien> Roger.
[20:50] <Upu> thats a simple example using RTTY
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[20:51] <Upu> Andy's trackers are custom built ones
[20:51] <crmxdien> That looks really helpful.
[20:51] <Upu> evening Jim
[20:51] <N2NXZ> Hello anthony
[20:51] <crmxdien> Yes, I'm assuming I'll be building them to get the weight I need.
[20:51] <Upu> yeah start simple that start to reduce the size
[20:51] <Upu> I'm suspecting Andy's tracker is solar powered possibly
[20:52] <crmxdien> Yes, I'm planning on solar powered. Interested in WSPR and JT9 as transmission modes.
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[21:00] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K6RPT-12 - 12http://habhub.org/t/#!qm=All&q=K6RPT-12
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[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.nasa.gov/jpl/mer/hilltop-panorama-marks-mars-rovers-11th-anniversary/
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[21:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PS-32 - 12http://habhub.org/t/#!qm=All&q=PS-32
[21:55] <infaddict> hey guys, planning a 3.3v microcontroller for my first flight. with several sensors and SD card I'm wondering if I need to regulate the 3.3v at all?
[21:55] <infaddict> whats the usual approach for battery power to a microcontroller?
[21:55] <craag> Yes you'll need a regulator to produce 3.3V from the battery
[21:56] <craag> If you're not concerned about weight, you can use a linear regulator from 3x AA.
[21:56] <craag> or AAA
[21:57] <infaddict> thx craag. I'm new to electronics (reading a beginners book at the moment) and learning all the time. I need 3.3v for the duration of flight, plus finding time so potentially around 6 hours.
[21:57] <zyp> craag, isn't the normal approach lithium cells? aren't they 3V per cell usually?
[21:58] <craag> zyp: No, the lithium primary cells we use are ~1.4v/cell
[21:58] <zyp> ah, different chemistry
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[21:58] <craag> Yeah
[21:58] <craag> Lithium-iron-something
[21:58] <zyp> yeah, just read it
[21:59] <craag> infaddict: mcp1700-3.3 is what I often use.
[21:59] <craag> Handles up to 250mA output, up to 6V input (which is fine for 3x AA)
[22:00] <craag> As for battery life, you need to add up all the current consumptions of the parts, to find the worst-case total.
[22:00] <zyp> if all the parts you hook up will handle voltages lower than 3.3V (microcontrollers tend to operate fine to below 2V) then that should work fine
[22:01] <zyp> not sure how happy the gps or the radio would be with that though
[22:01] <zyp> but if that works, the extra cell and regulator is just dead weight
[22:02] <infaddict> thx craag. thats the part i need to learn how to calculate. i am slowing working out my list of exact sensors and parts. as you say I can then hopefully estimate the current consumption.
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[22:03] <infaddict> cheers zyp i will check the datasheets of my GPS, radio and sensors and see what input voltage they handle. think most are 3+ tho
[22:03] <craag> zyp: Yeah I'm assembling a board right now like that, depends on your radio/gps module.
[22:04] <infaddict> ntx2 for radio im thinking
[22:04] <craag> This is rfm98/max-m8c, so all ok. Does make dealing with leds a pain though.
[22:05] <infaddict> looking at the uBLOX Max M8C for GPS
[22:06] <craag> ntx2b is great, needs >3V though, so 3.3V regulated is the best way to go.
[22:06] <craag> max-m8 gps are ideal too
[22:06] <craag> (remember to configure flight mode)
[22:06] <infaddict> yer looking at the fa version of ntx2b from habsupplies
[22:07] <infaddict> so flight mode means it will work at high altitude, is that right?
[22:07] <craag> I've got a few of those - very easy to work with, and a reliable track record too.
[22:07] <craag> Yes, flight mode allows it to work >27km
[22:07] <craag> up to a max of 50km
[22:08] <infaddict> cool - hoping my first ever flight gets up there ;-)
[22:08] <craag> (ie, too high to worry about it)
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[22:10] <Vaizki> what's the efficiency of the MCP1700 when run with 3xAA?
[22:10] <infaddict> craag where do u put the mcp1700 on your board? is it the first thing (after power supply) that supplies power to main board?
[22:10] <craag> so batteries -> mcp1700 -> board
[22:10] <infaddict> thx
[22:10] <craag> It has 3 pins: battery in, ground, regulated out.
[22:11] <craag> Are you building on stripboard or?
[22:11] <infaddict> good question. thinking of a custom PCB eventually. breadboard for prototyping.
[22:11] <Vaizki> well first thing after power supply is a 1uF cap to gnd actually :)
[22:12] <Vaizki> and another one right after
[22:12] <craag> Reason why I was asking - mcp1700 advises 1uF capacitors on input and output - if you're designing a pcb
[22:12] <craag> You'll see in the datasheet
[22:13] <infaddict> ah ok, and for a newbie like me, why are they required on a PCB and what do they achieve?
[22:14] <gonzo___> i suspect that it is to stop the regulator from oscilating
[22:14] <Vaizki> yea the ldo is not stable without caps
[22:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decoupling_capacitor
[22:14] <craag> A regulator has to actively respond to a change in current, to keep the voltage stable, like tracking a moving target with a rifle. Without the capacitor they can keep under/overshooting, and oscillate.
[22:14] <Vaizki> and they filter noise etc
[22:14] <gonzo___> and they should be positioned physiaclly close to the regulator
[22:15] <craag> The capacitor effectively adds more weight to the rifle, making it more stable.
[22:15] <infaddict> great explanation thx
[22:16] <Vaizki> short answer is, just put them there or your power is going to be crap
[22:16] <infaddict> and is that in general, or just on PCB?
[22:16] <Vaizki> always
[22:16] <infaddict> cheers
[22:16] <Geoff-G8DHE> Anywhere even more so on breasdboard as longer wires more inductance
[22:18] <Vaizki> I'm a noob on HAB too, just wondering isn't 3xAA (energizer lithiums etc) a bit overkill for most power budgets?
[22:18] <Vaizki> could you make do with an efficient boost reg and 2xAA?
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[22:19] <craag> You can do it with a boost reg and one AAA ;)
[22:20] <Vaizki> sure but I guess you want a LITTLE bit of transmit time after it comes down.. so you can find it ;)
[22:20] <craag> For a starter though, it's easier to have the safety margin of extra batteries, and less fussy regulators, and for a non-record latex flight, the extra weight is not that significant.
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[22:20] <Vaizki> right
[22:20] <infaddict> yer i should clarify i'm not after record flight time, just near space pics and learning a lot along the way
[22:21] <craag> best attitude :D
[22:21] <Vaizki> well there's some tough competition to beat on the flight time records now :)
[22:21] <craag> Yeah highest altitude would be easier
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[22:22] <infaddict> lol, the thing just working will suit me fine
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[22:23] <craag> where are you based infaddict ?
[22:23] <infaddict> North East of England
[22:24] <infaddict> I'm a coder for a dayjob, so can handle that side of things. Electronics and radio are brand new to me. So lots to learn.
[22:24] <craag> Cool, there's a few hab people from up there. I'm down in southampton.
[22:24] <infaddict> Lovely part of the world, I work in Bmth a lot
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[22:25] <craag> The radio side can be challenging to get your head around
[22:25] <Flerb> I came across a module (2.4gHz) which says its antenna impedance is 15©+j88©. What does the j bit mean? And how would a 50 ohm matching circuit work for it?
[22:25] <infaddict> is there such a thing as an online calculator (once I know all my components) to show me different battery configs and how long they might last?
[22:25] <craag> But it is very satisfying receiving the warble of telemetry on the ground from your little box 30km above you :)
[22:25] <infaddict> yer i bet ;-)
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[22:25] <Flerb> So does one part have a different impedance to the other
[22:25] <jededu> 1st solar board :) http://gerblook.org/pcb/DGiEzov75QPP87AUdz793e#back
[22:26] <craag> So the batteries have capacity ratings, in mAh
[22:26] <gonzo_nb> the j bit is the reactive bit. So theinductive or capacitive bit
[22:26] <craag> eg http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf
[22:27] <Flerb> i should really re-read my intermediate license manual
[22:27] <craag> So 3000mAh means it can supply 3A for an hour, or 0.5A for 6 hours
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[22:27] <Flerb> so a 50 ohm would be 50 ohms on the inductive and capacitive bit
[22:27] <craag> So you need to work out the current consumption of your system
[22:27] <Flerb> ?
[22:27] <gonzo_nb> probably that is a bit beyond the AR licence. Look at an engineering book
[22:27] <craag> And then you can work out how long it would last
[22:28] <craag> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l92.pdf - Energizer Lithium AAA, ~1200mAh
[22:28] <gonzo_nb> a pure resistive load would be 50r +j0R
[22:29] <Flerb> gonzo_nb: a lot of people say you have to go to uni to fully get RF.
[22:29] <infaddict> thanks craag. and if wiring 2 x 3000mAh in series, its still 3000mAh right? just voltage doubles.
[22:29] <Vaizki> yes
[22:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> Oh dear I did it the wrong way round then!
[22:29] <craag> infaddict: Yes, in parallel would doube the capacity for the same voltage.
[22:29] <gonzo_nb> but you can get a useable match with a source with soem resistive and reactive part
[22:30] <Flerb> craag: out of interest, what degree did you get from soton uni? I was reading they do 4 year MEng courses in ee and wireless communications
[22:30] <Flerb> Did you just do the ee bit?
[22:30] <craag> Flerb: I got beng electronic
[22:30] <Flerb> gonzo_nb: tbh my general electronics knowledge is a bit weak
[22:30] <Flerb> craag: ah
[22:30] <Vaizki> infaddict: the LDO will the drop your voltage to 3.3V and lose the rest as heat
[22:31] <gonzo_nb> you don't have to go to uni, but if you get in deep then a lot fo the concepts need some maths to solve. You can still understand the copncepts, but calculating may need more degree type skills
[22:31] <infaddict> craag: great that helps a lot. guess i need to finalise my parts list to get better idea of current consumption.
[22:31] <edmoore> Flerb, so it's actually not a super simple concept, impedance. but there are two components to impedance, resistence and reactance
[22:31] <edmoore> we could write it as a coordinate
[22:31] <edmoore> like (resistence, reactance)
[22:31] <Flerb> So it's kind of a vector?
[22:31] <edmoore> yes
[22:31] <infaddict> Vaizki: Thanks, am i right to think that heat is actually a benefit to the internal temp of the payload then?
[22:31] <edmoore> but instead we use 'complex number' notation to represent the same thing
[22:32] <edmoore> so we have resistence + j*reactance
[22:32] <edmoore> so lots of rf stuff is 50 ohm
[22:32] <gonzo_nb> Flerb, with a reply like that, you are probably closer to understanding RF than you think!
[22:32] <edmoore> what the strictly should be written as is: 50 +0j
[22:32] <Flerb> but that's extra effort
[22:32] <Flerb> so people don't?
[22:33] <Flerb> Because it's implicit, right?
[22:33] <Vaizki> sure but it's not a huge amount of heat. for example if you are drawing 100mA continuous, source voltage 4.2V and out 3.3V the heat is going to be (4.2-3.3)*0.1 = 0.09W
[22:33] <Vaizki> I hope I got the math right there :D
[22:33] <edmoore> the first term is pure resistence, the second (reactance) term is what you get from capacitance and inductance, and it is different because you have to consider time
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[22:33] <gonzo_nb> complex impeadence is probably beyond most amateurs, even with a full licence
[22:34] <edmoore> so if you suddenly apply a voltage then a capacitor looks like a short initially but then looks more and more resistive as it fills up
[22:34] <edmoore> the opposite is true for an inductor
[22:34] <Vaizki> I don't know what HAB payloads draw but I'm thinking 100mA sounds about right?
[22:34] <Flerb> edmoore: so j is the reactance?
[22:34] <edmoore> yes
[22:34] <edmoore> exactly
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[22:35] <edmoore> and the 'j' bit represents the imaginary number - usually called 'i' in maths but 'j' in electronics engineering, but they're the same thing
[22:35] <Flerb> And imaginary numbers are?
[22:35] <edmoore> and it just means it's orthogonal to real numbers (the resistance)
[22:35] <edmoore> hah
[22:35] <edmoore> well
[22:35] <infaddict> Vaizki: cool. i'm planning on a separate camera and mobile phone (backup comms), so just the microcontroller, radio (ntx2b), GPS, temp sensor and SD card to power. Will work it all out.
[22:35] <edmoore> so
[22:35] <edmoore> real numbers
[22:35] <Vaizki> infaddict: what micro?
[22:35] <edmoore> minus inifinity to infinity
[22:35] <edmoore> basically anything on the number line
[22:36] <Flerb> yep
[22:36] <infaddict> Vaizki: Close to choosing the Arduino Pro Mini 328 (3.3V version)
[22:36] <edmoore> imaginary numbers let you add another dimension so you have a plane instead of a line
[22:36] <edmoore> the unit imaginary number, i, (or j), is defined as the square root of -1
[22:36] <Flerb> I didn't think you could root negatives
[22:37] <Flerb> so kind of like vectors, in a way
[22:37] <Vaizki> yes you can..
[22:37] <edmoore> precisely
[22:37] <gonzo_nb> hence imaginary
[22:37] <edmoore> we represent them as vecotrs
[22:37] <Flerb> edmoore: but you can pretend to
[22:37] <Flerb> :P
[22:37] <edmoore> 1 + 3j can be thought of as (1,3)
[22:37] <zyp> imaginary numbers are 2D vectors with a neat set of rules
[22:37] <edmoore> on the 'complex plane'
[22:37] <Vaizki> infaddict: only thing wrong with those "arduino" AVRs I guess is to have only one serial port
[22:37] <edmoore> ok i found what i was looking for Flerb : http://acko.net/blog/how-to-fold-a-julia-fractal/
[22:38] <edmoore> the first half of that at least should explain it quite well
[22:38] <gonzo_nb> that sounds like a name of a flower
[22:38] <edmoore> especially that slide show part that you click through
[22:38] <edmoore> i think that should really help explain the concept
[22:38] <edmoore> you're starting to get into the meat and potatoes of elegant mathematics with this stuff
[22:39] <infaddict> Vaizki: i'm open to suggestions if there are better options. i need to document all my I/O requirements to see whats what.
[22:39] <Flerb> thanks
[22:39] <edmoore> you'll need a browser that supports webgl but i think all modern ones do
[22:39] <Vaizki> you don't need 2 serial ports to fly but it's nice for debugging :)
[22:39] <gonzo_nb> I recon I will have to get all my A level maths books out soon. As it won't be long before my daughter is asking me questions
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[22:44] <Flerb> woah
[22:44] <mfa298> gonzo_nb: you might be lucky there, I don't think I saw compex numbers until half way through my degree (although they may have started making things harder again)
[22:44] <Flerb> my mind
[22:44] <Flerb> is like
[22:44] <Flerb> blown
[22:44] <Flerb> this is like an existential crisis but with maths
[22:44] <Flerb> i mean like rotating numbers
[22:45] Action: mfa298 starts reading edmoore's link, sees discworld quote and knows things are good in the world :)
[22:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> :)
[22:46] <Flerb> I wish I got to do gcse additional maths
[22:46] <gonzo_nb> there was definitly complex numbers at A level for me
[22:46] <edmoore> Flerb, yes i was going to warn you of exactly this before linking
[22:47] <edmoore> you're now leaving the world or arithmetic behind
[22:47] <Flerb> but my maths is quite bad as it is
[22:47] <Flerb> well
[22:47] <edmoore> and entering the world of mathematics
[22:47] <Flerb> it's relatively ok but i can't do it quickly enough
[22:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> Complex numbers and matching used to be in the old RAE syllabus as well!
[22:47] <edmoore> don't worry about stuff like that
[22:47] <Flerb> At school I struggle because I have other people around me.
[22:48] <mfa298> gonzo_nb: I think complex maths may have appeared in A level further maths when I did it but not in the main maths course (and I did electroncics instead of further maths)
[22:48] <edmoore> maths is a big subject with lots of places to explore. some people are good at diving but not rock climbing, some are good at jogging but not sprinting
[22:48] <edmoore> complex numbers were definitely in a-level maths
[22:49] <Flerb> like imagine maths, and then imagine someone next to you talking about their pet dog, then imagine the whole class talking about irrelevant stuff
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[22:49] <Flerb> but everyone else gets the work done while talking to each other about off-topic stuff
[22:49] <Flerb> I tend to be OK provided I'm left alone
[22:49] <gonzo_nb> O did maths with mechanics. But I forgit how to even integrate or differentiate decades ago
[22:50] <gonzo_nb> Flerb, you at school at the mo?
[22:50] <edmoore> you have khan academy if you need to remember in a hurry
[22:50] <edmoore> flerb hasn't even done GCSEs yet
[22:50] <edmoore> that he seems impedance and says 'so it's like a vector' at that stage means he will be just fine in the sciences
[22:50] <Lunar_Lander> thanks for the link to the fractal website ed
[22:50] <Flerb> edmoore: well, physics.
[22:51] <Flerb> I'm getting Ds and Cs in Chemistry and Biology
[22:51] <edmoore> they're all just revision
[22:51] <edmoore> not so much understanding, just lots of stuff
[22:51] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
[22:51] <gonzo_nb> if you are interested enough in electronics/engineering, you will have the great advantage that, you will be able to see the practical uses for maths, rather than just being taught some abstract ideas
[22:51] <edmoore> you can revise for them nearer the time
[22:51] <infaddict> I got a raft of A's at GCSE then discovered beer and women during A-levels and failed miserably ;-/
[22:51] <Flerb> it annoys me though that so much is based on braindumping
[22:52] <edmoore> it's life, at least until uni
[22:52] <Flerb> computing isn't bad
[22:52] <edmoore> play the game for another 3-4 years
[22:52] <gonzo_nb> hehe, sounds a similar story here infaddict
[22:52] <Flerb> I like that my teacher doesn't really teach us.
[22:52] <mfa298> Flerb: at up to GCSE maths is a bit like learning that you can put one foot in front of the other and you can move, as you move beyond that you start finding there's a whole range of ways to do things
[22:52] <edmoore> then you can relax and start to enjoy your subject for its own sake
[22:52] <mfa298> cm13g09: pong
[22:52] <edmoore> right, i must be off
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[22:53] <Flerb> But so much of the computing syllabus at GCSE is like draw a flowchart for this remarkably simple concept that you don't need to draw a flowchart for
[22:53] <edmoore> good luck Flerb, you inadvertently just stumbled on some extremely powerful and useful mathematical ideas just then, by asking an innocent question
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[22:53] <Flerb> edmoore: thanks. I will try my best to figure out what it has to do with antennas
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[22:54] <edmoore> complex numbers (that is to say, numbers with a real part and an imaginary part, like 7 + 4j) are fundamental to analyzing a lot of useful physics and engineeering problems
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[22:55] <Flerb> oh and i designed another pcb
[22:55] <edmoore> if you're wondering what rotating around a unit circle in the complex number plane has to do with modelling radio waves, maybe have a look at this gif: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phasor#mediaviewer/File:Unfasor.gif
[22:55] <Flerb> Ah
[22:56] <mfa298> Flerb: that's the case with a lot of GCSE (and in some cases A Level), it's dumping enough knowledge that you can get by and pass an exam. The real learning comes later (Uni and beyond).
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[22:57] <mfa298> A few years ago I looked at my A Level Computing stuff and realised half of it was pretty basic and half was pretty much incorrect. But it was the stuff I needed to know to pass the exams
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[22:57] <Flerb> mfa298: ah
[22:57] <Flerb> is gcse computing new or is it just that schools needed a cheap little linux board to come out in order for them to do it?
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[22:58] <gonzo_nb> my computer studies (yes that was what they called it then) O level, there were punch cards in the course material
[22:58] <Flerb> I mean my school bought something like 20 raspberry pis. We don't use them, and I'm not sure anyone else does.
[22:58] <edmoore> night night
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[22:58] <Flerb> night e
[22:58] <Flerb> oh
[22:58] <Flerb> We have python on the computers at school
[22:58] <gonzo_nb> the teachers are probably waiting for the kids to show them what to do!
[22:58] <Flerb> It kind of annoys me that we use python 3
[22:59] <Flerb> I guess it's just because I grew up on 2
[22:59] <Flerb> i think my teacher probably just said
[22:59] <Flerb> oh
[22:59] <Flerb> a bigger number.
[22:59] <mfa298> I did a GCSE computing (I'm not quite old enough for it to have been an O Level) but that was mostly bits of DTP and similar, I don't think I needed any programming
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[23:00] <gonzo_nb> I had to learn machine code when I was 13, as I needed it for a project at home.
[23:00] <gonzo_nb> that does seem like a long time ago!
[23:01] <gonzo_nb> I think I was the last year to do the old GCE exams. GCSE came in just after. I had to do one for english resits when I was at college
[23:02] <gonzo_nb> programming at school was ba
[23:02] <Flerb> http://puu.sh/f1KGp/1fbf10badd.png
[23:02] <Flerb> PCB not going too badly
[23:02] <gonzo_nb> BASIC. Not VB either. Good old line numbered BBC basic
[23:02] <Flerb> oh
[23:02] <Flerb> that thing
[23:02] <Flerb> with GOTO
[23:03] <Flerb> See I wanted to see if I could put the nrf24l01 on the shield itself
[23:03] <gonzo_nb> 10 print "hello world"
[23:03] <mfa298> hehe, good old BBC basic.
[23:03] <Flerb> instead of just sticking a breakout board in
[23:03] <mfa298> and that machine still boots faster than any modern machine I've seen
[23:03] <Flerb> cassettes.
[23:03] <Flerb> heh.
[23:04] <Flerb> remember when we loaded our code off of vinyl?
[23:05] <gonzo_nb> I had one of my old computers returned to me recently Tandy 100. And I was supprised I could still do BASIC
[23:05] <gonzo_nb> We were 'appier then, though we were poor.......
[23:05] <mfa298> I don't think I've ever used cassettes with an bbc, EEPROM or floppy disk.
[23:05] <gonzo_nb> oh nostalgia.....
[23:06] <gonzo_nb> cassettes were really crap though
[23:07] <Flerb> ack
[23:07] <Flerb> must sleep
[23:07] <Flerb> school tomorrow
[23:07] <gonzo_nb> gn
[23:07] <Flerb> injections on tuesday.
[23:07] <Flerb> not looking forward to it
[23:08] <Flerb> gn everyone
[23:08] <mfa298> still those were the days when computers had an interpreted language (BASIC) built in, no need to go downloading and installing things.
[23:08] <Flerb> thanks for the maths help
[23:08] <gonzo_nb> ah, and wednesday, everyone will be slapping eachother on the arm
[23:08] <Flerb> oh goodness.
[23:08] <Vaizki> infaddict: sorry I wandered off, anyway maybe take a look at the Teensy 3.1 board also. it's a bit more expensive than Arduino but very capable
[23:08] <Flerb> I might end up getting more - my parents didn't get me the second round of mmr. they thought i'd catch autism
[23:09] <gonzo_nb> just get them done and out of the way.
[23:09] <gonzo_nb> It was worse, you caught Engineering. There is no known cure!
[23:09] <Flerb> heh
[23:10] <Flerb> see when I look at it, it seems to me that they were acting gullibly
[23:10] <mfa298> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60P1xG32Feo
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[23:10] <gonzo_nb> my daughter must be same age as you. As all that was going on when we had to make that decision.
[23:11] <Flerb> gonzo_nb: did you get it done?
[23:12] <gonzo_nb> yep. Weighed up the evidence , and the fact that nothing that the MMR could cause would cause more harm that having me as an influence in life
[23:12] <Flerb> I mean to me, as a relatively inquisitive person, I would have looked at the study myself, researched it, researched other people's opinions and come to a conclusion based on my own opinion
[23:13] <gonzo_nb> there was a lot of hooharr about it at the time. So I wouldnt be to hard on your folks
[23:15] <Flerb> gonzo_nb: yep
[23:15] <infaddict> Viazki: Thanks
[23:15] <infaddict> Night guys catch u later
[23:15] <Flerb> anyway at the end of the day its my choice
[23:16] <Flerb> i should get these pcb designs checked out by a 3rd party
[23:16] <Flerb> there should be a site that does that
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[23:17] <gonzo_nb> just leave it a few weeks and run through it yourself again. You will probably have forgottin enough about it to spot any mistakes.
[23:17] <Flerb> is autorouting bad?
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[23:19] <gonzo_nb> and most PCB errors are down to errors in the component pads (spacing, hole size, pin positions) or mirror errors
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> do you already know where you want to have the PCBs made?
[23:28] <Lunar_Lander> Flerb
[23:30] <zyp> Flerb, autorouting isn't inherently bad, but it tends to make poor designs for simple stuff
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[23:37] <Flerb> Lunar_Lander: no.
[23:37] <Flerb> Well
[23:37] <Flerb> I have a rough idea
[23:37] <Flerb> i'm thinking of these people http://smart-prototyping.com/Prototyping-Services/Electronic-Prototyping/PCB-Prototyping.html
[23:37] <Flerb> i'm reluctant to go with hackvana again
[23:38] <Flerb> the factory lost my boards
[23:38] <Flerb> then he put them through again
[23:38] <Flerb> and then they turned up
[23:39] <zyp> I have good experiences with oshpark
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[23:42] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[23:57] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
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[00:00] --- Mon Jan 26 2015