highaltitude.log.20150114

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[00:16] <mbales__> anyone here made their own balloons with mylar / heptax / whatever
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[04:31] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PS-30 after 0314 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/t/#!qm=All&q=PS-30
[04:49] <qyx_> O_o
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[09:48] <Sms> Morning. Can anybody recommend a decent soldering iron for soldering components to prototype boards etc? My current one, although great for fixing things on the car is way too big
[09:49] <edmoore> Sms, for sure, what sort of money wopuld you like to spend?
[09:49] <edmoore> you can spend (GBP) £70, £150, £300, there are standout options at all those price points
[09:50] <edmoore> i wouldn't go too much cheaper than £70 thought because there's a night-and-day difference in performance between a proper electronics iron with good thermal control and electrical safety and a chinese firestarter
[09:52] <Sms> Haha thanks I'll try and avoid the fire starters although I was looking to spend about 100 if possible
[09:52] <edmoore> ok, well for £100 i think the best you could get is a second hand metcal from ebay
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[09:53] <edmoore> the MX500 model is v popular and eprforms excellently
[09:53] <Sms> Ok thanks I'll take a look, I think I looked at them before
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[09:55] <edmoore> this model is the predecessor to the mx500 and all the handpieces and stuff are compatible
[09:55] <edmoore> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/METCAL-STSS-PS2V-02-Soldering-System-Power-unit-only-/171507726045?pt=UK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM&hash=item27eea836dd
[09:55] <edmoore> keep an eye out for them too
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[09:55] <edmoore> you definitely can nab psu, iron, stand for about £100 if you keep an eye out
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[09:57] <edmoore> however, the other think to look at is the Hakko fx-888
[09:57] <Sms> The mx500 on eBay seem to be going for decent money
[09:57] <edmoore> it's definitely the winner at its price point, but i'd definitely spend the extra £30 to get a metcal 2nd hand if i had a choice
[09:57] <edmoore> but if you want to buy new for £100, the hakko for sure
[09:58] <edmoore> if you want to be frivolous a JBC iron will change how you look at the universe but maybe save that for once you're properly commited to electronics
[09:58] <Sms> Thanks II'll keep my eye out and do some reading
[10:00] <edmoore> np
[10:01] <edmoore> look on craigslist too if you're near a big city
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[10:25] <fsphil> Huygen's Titan landing was 10 years ago today :/
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[11:33] <paul_HAB-P> wow i didn't know soldering irons had become so complex.
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[11:55] <edmoore> paul_HAB-P, they're not that complex
[11:55] <edmoore> simple principle, just the metrics are things like how good the thermal response is
[11:55] <edmoore> and are they nice things like sleeping when in the stand (stops the tips oxidising up)
[11:56] <paul_HAB-P> yep - i guess i should have said - its become a refined science. Back in my day it was pace soldering stations
[11:59] <craag> coming from maplin 12 quid irons, thermal response is incredible - the size of the joint almost becomes a non-issue
[11:59] <fsphil> I'm still on the maplin one. though it was the £20 version
[11:59] <craag> as does trying to solder said joints on-site in sub-zero wind.
[12:01] <fsphil> apparently the US section of the ISS has been evacuated due to a chemical leak
[12:01] <fsphil> there's an ammonia leak
[12:01] <paul_HAB-P> sounds like an episode of Big Bang.
[12:10] <edmoore> that doesn't sound cool
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[12:18] <adamgreig> crew all safe apparently
[12:18] <adamgreig> for now anyway
[12:19] Nick change: storm_ -> storm_work
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[12:30] <Laurenceb> PS-30 heading for a circumnavigation
[12:31] <fsphil> ah, only possible ammonia leak. the evacuation was in response to the coolant loop pressure increasing
[12:31] <fsphil> though wouldn't the pressure drop if there was a leak
[12:33] <gonzo_> risk of a leak occuring as a result of pressure increase?
[12:33] <Vaizki> they took up a bunch of spares for the environmental system before the shuttle program was shut down so they should be able to fix many issues
[12:34] <fsphil> gonzo_: mmm that might be it
[12:34] <gonzo_> (they just need to do the blow torch trick, that refridgeration men use to clear vapour locks!
[12:34] <Vaizki> yea just EVA with a blow torch
[12:34] <Vaizki> done. open a beer.
[12:35] <gonzo_> sounds line a MIR fix!
[12:35] <adamgreig> maybe someone left a beer in the ammonia coolant loop to chill it ;)
[12:35] <gonzo_> like
[12:35] <fsphil> hah
[12:36] <gonzo_> and a half eaten kebab in the radiator, for later
[12:36] <adamgreig> haha
[12:36] <Vaizki> I'm not sure if the ammonia coolant loop is even inside the station living quarters at all :)
[12:37] <Vaizki> I'd think they just cool solar panels or test equipment..
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[12:37] <Vaizki> but RT at least reports that there is air contamination
[12:38] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes it cools all the electronics inside the hull and the environment itself in a seperate loop
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[12:40] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://www.space.com/21059-space-station-cooling-system-explained-infographic.html
[12:42] <fsphil> the alarm went off at 4am. urg
[12:43] <fsphil> chris hadfield is giving out some good info
[12:50] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> "Live" update delayed 5 minutes .... http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html#.VLZk-i6GvIc
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[13:13] <fsphil> not a leak it seems
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[13:17] <fsphil> it really is two stations in one
[13:20] <mfa298> that makes some sort of sense if there are two seperate parts. Not like you can get a same day response from British Gas if there's a problem
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[14:00] <storm_work> where do you guys buy your helium?
[14:02] <fsphil> boc
[14:02] <fsphil> or a boc reseller
[14:03] <fsphil> the well named balloonhelium.co.uk for example
[14:05] <storm_work> ok so basically from Linde directly, hmm I will have to contact them
[14:05] <fsphil> if you're doing it through a school or uni then BOC will likely give a discount
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[14:06] <LunarWork> hello
[14:06] <storm_work> well it is a private project, but I work at a university so I might be able to arrange something ;)
[14:06] <fsphil> quite possibly. the uni may already have an arrangement with boc or other provider
[14:07] <fsphil> afternoon LunarWork
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[14:15] <paul_HAB-P> Looking on the BalloonHelium.co.uk site, some of the cylinders come with an inflator - can this be used instead of needing to find a regulator?
[14:16] <craag> All the cylinders will come with a regulator
[14:16] <paul_HAB-P> so I don't need to find something special to mate the balloon with the cylinder?
[14:16] <mattbrejza> garden hose
[14:16] <paul_HAB-P> righto! :)
[14:17] <craag> I think I chose the universal 'filling kit' which then fitted the length of plastic tube I had
[14:17] <craag> (before it got nicked at the launch site at least :P)
[14:18] <gonzo_> I have a feeling that the reguloators have a fill nozzle or similar on, for filling little party balloons. Though someone else may knoe better
[14:18] <gonzo_> w
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[14:19] <craag> Certainly when you get the 'x-small' cylinder, it gives you a choice of fill nozzle
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[14:20] <gonzo_> I expect the balloon gas they sell is 10%ish air
[14:20] <craag> I went for the "Latex Filling Kit" and then used a bit of hose off that
[14:21] <paul_HAB-P> Excellent - great info taa!
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[14:44] <Stork> hello everybody! I have a question about the data-format of the telemetry im supposed to send related to this guide: http://habitat.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ukhas_parser.html#standard-ukhas-sentences
[14:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M0RPI-11 - 12http://habhub.org/t/#!qm=All&q=M0RPI-11
[14:45] <Stork> Say I have 7 fields... (lat/lon/speed/altitude,accX,accY,accZ)... and I send these
[14:46] <Stork> now for a brief moment I dont receive any new data from the acceloremeter... can I switch to only send the 4 sentences instead? (lat,lon,speed,alt) or do I ALWAYS have to send in the same format?
[14:46] <lz1dev> you can have multiple formats
[14:46] <lz1dev> for the same payload
[14:46] <lz1dev> but sending acceleration is probably not useful
[14:47] <adamgreig> Stork: yea you can add as many sentence types to your payload document as you like, so that's fine
[14:48] <Stork> and I can switch between the formats? how will dl-fldigi then know what format is right?
[14:48] <lz1dev> it doesn't
[14:48] <lz1dev> just checks the checksum afraik
[14:50] <adamgreig> yea, habitat will 'know which is right' by trying them in order until one parses
[14:50] <Stork> aha!
[14:51] <Stork> so I can have several definitions for one load?
[14:53] <lz1dev> yep
[14:54] <Stork> thank u!
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[15:45] <Stork> should the starting $$ and the finishing * be included in the CRC16 CCITT checksum calculation?
[15:47] <mfa298> no
[15:47] <mfa298> just what's between them
[15:48] <mfa298> (and you're allowed more $$ at the start but still don't include any of them in the checksum)
[15:50] <Stork> Thank you for the quick answer!
[15:50] <Stork> ... what's the reason you must have at least two $?
[15:50] <fsphil> it's how the start of the string is identified
[15:51] <gonzo_> it's always worth adding a few null charachers at the start of the senctence (before the $$) to fluch out any decode noise
[15:51] <fsphil> fldigi looks for $$<payload name>
[15:51] <fsphil> dl-*
[15:51] <gonzo_> you could use more more $$$$ to fluch buffers, but nulls are better
[15:52] <gonzo_> flush
[15:54] <Stork> alright, thanks! I guess I don't need to add linebreaks (\n) for dl-fldigi to know when to start a new sentence then?
[15:55] <adamgreig> do add linebreaks
[15:55] <adamgreig> they are also required
[15:55] <adamgreig> I think
[15:55] <Stork> hmm... after the checksum?
[15:57] <craag> yes
[16:01] <Stork> ok!
[16:03] <Stork> sorry for stupid questions but I really want to double-check everything :)
[16:04] <craag> not stupid at all :)
[16:05] <craag> easier to answer you now than try to help you work out what's gone wrong later!
[16:05] <Stork> exactly what I was thinking! :)
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[16:09] <Ian_> Obviously(?) the reason for extra $ or nulls is so that the receiver is able to settle before being expected to reliably receive the mandatory $$ at the start of the message.
[16:11] <Ian_> Without a run in like that the $$ may not be reliably received due noise causing ASCII framing errors at the start of the transmission. Just like someone asking you an unexpected question in a noisy environment?
[16:12] <Ian_> Huh, what, you talking to me? Can you say that again, I didn't quite get it? I'm sure you get the idea.
[16:12] <Ian_> :)
[16:13] <Stork> :)
[16:13] <Stork> good explanation
[16:14] <Stork> so currently I apply the "Sentence ID" to every package i transmit, and add +1 to every new package. but say for instance I sometimes want to transmit SSDV-data... there is not Sentence ID in that? I mean... if i transmit five telemetry packages (1,2,3,4,5)... then a couple of SSDV-packages... the sixth telemetry-package, will it have sentence id no 6?
[16:15] <Stork> (my current implementation only includes telemetry so I have not looked at SSDV too much)
[16:17] <Ian_> Pretend that the telemetry and SSDV are separate systems/transmitters. so the serial numbers stay with your telemetry and (because I am unsure about the SSDV packet requirement) if the SSDV require frame IDs, then they will have their own series and as you interlieve telemetry and SSDV so will your serials be radiated appropriately,
[16:18] <Ian_> On the ground it could be two totally separate systems sharing the same frequency (Nicely). On your balloon you either sync two systems or synthesise them to get the same effect.
[16:19] <Ian_> The choice is entirely yours and the trade off is probably in the development phase where you develop them as separate systems and then merge the code to reduce the hardware content ready for flight.
[16:20] <Ian_> I think that SSDV is for the accomplished and something for everyone to aspire to . . . eventually! :)
[16:20] <Stork> alright! actually my plan was to use only one transmitter. First sending X amount of telemetry packets, then Y amount of SSDV-packets and repeat
[16:21] <Ian_> It's a good strategy, but I bet you will have initially developed the SSDV separately while you get to grips with the ins and outs KISS principle.
[16:21] <Stork> I'll see how fast things are going when I start experimenting with SSDV... I guess 50baud is not too much for image transmission
[16:22] <Ian_> I think that you willl find that for SSDV you will need to use 300 baud or so.. 50 baud is just too pedestrian for picture transmission.
[16:23] <daveake> As said, SSDV is separate. SSDV is sent as 256-byte packets, and you can transmit n such packets between telemetry packets
[16:23] <daveake> I typically do 4 SSDVs for each 1 telemetry
[16:24] <Ian_> On the ground, if you wanted, you could use two receiving systems. one at 50 baud dedicated to rx the telemetry and one for the SSDV reception. That would keep the receive side simple.
[16:24] <daveake> There's an SSDV program that converts a JPG to SSDV format, so all I do is run that, then read and send 256 bytes from the file at a time
[16:25] <Ian_> Dave is the acknowledged guru, having done it more than once.
[16:25] <daveake> fsphil is the guru as he wrote it
[16:25] <Ian_> \o/
[16:25] <Stork> haha okey :) daveake AND fsphil are the gurus maybe then?
[16:25] <daveake> Well I think I've flown SSDV more than anyone, so maybe :)
[16:25] <Ian_> Yes but maybe fsphil wasn't listening!
[16:26] <Stork> my thought was to use just one receiver (the funcube dongle pro +) and to instances of dl-fldigi... one that receives at 50baud, and the other that receives at 300 baud?
[16:26] <Stork> to = two
[16:26] <daveake> I suggest leaving it all at 300 baud
[16:27] <daveake> Keeps things simple
[16:27] <Stork> doesnt the reception quality get worse using higher baud?
[16:27] <Ian_> Keeping it simple has a lot to recommend it, for sure.
[16:27] <daveake> It's still good enough
[16:28] <Ian_> The compromise is outweighed by the lack of complication I believe.
[16:28] <Stork> alright, I trust the experts :)
[16:28] <Ian_> shady look from me then!
[16:28] <daveake> The SSDV will work better than the telemetry, as it includes FEC, but 300 baud is good enough for telemetry anyway
[16:28] <daveake> It would be good to have a standard for FEC telemetry
[16:29] <edmoore> thor
[16:30] <Stork> thats what I thought the CRC16 CCITT was for?
[16:30] <daveake> that's (CRC) is error checking not correct
[16:30] <daveake> ion
[16:32] <edmoore> crc is a checksum
[16:32] <edmoore> checksums detect errors
[16:32] <edmoore> but can't correct them
[16:33] <edmoore> this is a checksum in human form: http://www.quickmeme.com/img/aa/aadcd968fbae17016d14456cdad396dabc7fa92909fbd87033640b226a20a760.jpg
[16:33] <Stork> haha :)
[16:34] <Stork> and FEC in human form? ;)
[16:34] <edmoore> http://image.tmdb.org/t/p/original/pmfoQbCDq8CIUZCPZsY45glrhV4.jpg
[16:34] <Myself> lmao
[16:35] <edmoore> so they sort of operate at different levels of abstraction, if you like. when you construct a sentence you also construct a checksum, on the micro. the sentence has a sort of structure (ID, message, checksum)
[16:35] <edmoore> FEC has no idea about structure really, it just sees a stream of bits and transforms them by adding some redudant bits
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[16:36] <edmoore> at the receiver end, it sees a stream of bits and uses an fec decoder to try and turn them into the original stream of bits, again having no idea what the actual bits mean
[16:36] <adamgreig> though you can do error correction by essentially using a smarter checksum
[16:36] <edmoore> then a level above that the application says 'aha! that looks like a hab telemetry message! let me see if it's a valid one?' and knows how to compare it against its checksumn
[16:37] <Stork> so the reduntant bits are used in order to be able to "fix" the eventual error?
[16:37] <edmoore> precisely
[16:38] <edmoore> in a nutchell (adam is doing a PhD in this so can crack the nutshell much more thoroughly)
[16:38] <edmoore> nutshell*
[16:38] <edmoore> imagine you wanted to send the message '00'
[16:38] <Stork> okey! thank you!
[16:38] <Stork> yeah...?
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[16:38] <edmoore> if there was a chance that your channel (the medium you transmit over) adds noise so you get bit flips, the receiver may end up seeing the worng thing
[16:38] <edmoore> 01
[16:38] <edmoore> 10
[16:38] <edmoore> 11
[16:38] <edmoore> all of those would be wrong
[16:39] <edmoore> so you might say 'ok, let me transmit the message 3 times'
[16:39] <edmoore> so you send '00 00 00'
[16:39] <edmoore> the receiver might get '00 00 01'
[16:39] <edmoore> and then say 'well the first bit is 0 in each case so let's say that's a 0, the second bit is a 0, then a 0, then a 1'
[16:39] <edmoore> 'so i'll go with a majority vote and say it's likely to be 0'
[16:40] <edmoore> do you see?
[16:40] <edmoore> it's just a simple majority vote thing
[16:40] <Stork> I see! but you said CRC and FEC were on two different levels... do you need CRC if you use FEC?
[16:40] <edmoore> yes
[16:41] <edmoore> but i'm still on the fec stuff for now
[16:41] <edmoore> so lets' say our channel randomly flips 10% of bits you send down it
[16:41] <edmoore> i.e. the chance of a bit being corrupted is 0.1
[16:42] <edmoore> actually the numbers don't really matter here, the point is you greatly reduce the chance of getting a wrong overall message by sending 3 times
[16:42] <edmoore> now let's say you send 00 00 00 again
[16:42] <edmoore> the receiver gets 00 01 01
[16:42] <edmoore> i.e. there were 2 corruptions between transmitter and receiver that time
[16:43] <edmoore> our receiver says 'well all the first bits agree 0 so it's a 0'
[16:43] <edmoore> 'and by majority vote the second bit must be a 1'
[16:43] <Stork> yeah...?
[16:43] <edmoore> however it's made a mistake - the message we wanted to send was 00
[16:43] <edmoore> but our receiver decoded it as 01
[16:43] <edmoore> in that case, FEC has failed
[16:43] <edmoore> so you still want a checksum
[16:44] <edmoore> because the chance of a checksum being wrong is absolutely absolutely *tiny*
[16:44] <edmoore> compared to the chance of FEC decoding something incorrectly
[16:45] <edmoore> so that's why we have checksums
[16:45] <mbales__> morning all
[16:45] <edmoore> it's also worth emphasising that modern FEC is way way better than just repeating yourself
[16:45] <Stork> aha! but is that how FEC is working regarding to amount times you transmit something? I thought you still transmit something just once?
[16:45] <fsphil> math++
[16:46] <edmoore> Stork, you're correct
[16:46] <edmoore> so modern FEC does something much more intelligent than just repeating yourself
[16:46] <Stork> aha :)
[16:46] <fsphil> ssdv uses reed-solomon coding. the wiki page on that is an interesting read, if slightly complicated
[16:47] <edmoore> you can add redudant bits far more strategically, for a much lower penalty in reduced data rate, for much better performance (in terms of how many errors it can correct)
[16:47] <edmoore> this is a whole area of science called information theory, which also deals with things like how well you can compress information and so on. it's fascinating as a topic but way more than you need to fly a HAB :)
[16:48] <edmoore> if you're interesting, first have a read on Hamming Codes
[16:49] <edmoore> they're better than repetition codes
[16:49] <edmoore> and still simple
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> modern FEC is way better than just repeating yourself.
[16:49] <edmoore> then you can look at read-solomon that fsphil used for ssdv
[16:49] <Myself> modern FEC is way better than just repeating SpeedEvil
[16:49] <Stork> sure, this is interesting as I've heard about most of these words but never looked into the details. working with HAB makes you learn a lot of stuff, thats for sure my primary goal :)
[16:49] <adamgreig> modern FEC is modern FEC is modern FEC
[16:49] <fsphil> what the FEC
[16:49] <Stork> :D
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> Well - maximal likelyhood decoding of various sorts does give a likelyhood inherently
[16:50] <adamgreig> I should work on BEC
[16:50] <edmoore> Stork, if you get really into it there are textbooks we can recommend
[16:50] <adamgreig> bet that's good
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> so it sort-of-can-be-a-checksum
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> Getting FEC as good as it can be is books worth of topic.
[16:50] <adamgreig> checksums and error correcting codes are really two sides of the same coin
[16:50] <SpeedEvil> Getting to 'just' half that gain is much, much easier.
[16:51] <SpeedEvil> And for 'as good as it can be' - you need exact channel models, which are annoying
[16:52] <edmoore> and extremely long block lengths which is impractical on hab
[16:52] <edmoore> you'd have to save up an hour's worth of telemetry and encode it all at once
[16:52] <fsphil> 256 bytes at 300 baud rtty is already pushing it
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[16:55] <Stork> thank you all for the (more than enough) excellent explanations!
[16:57] <gonzo_> also, with relativly short packets and the usual interference on the channel is bursts of local noise, rather than weak signals. A simple crc to validate the packet, is probably a reasonable compromise
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[17:01] <daveake> Multiple receivers helps a lot too
[17:01] <Myself> No no wait, we can further complexify this if we add in the cost of computational effort in the processor doing the encoding, cycles per watt-second or whatever, and turn it...
[17:01] Action: Myself shows himself out
[17:02] <fsphil> the 16-bit checksum turned out to be too small for ssdv. I guess 1 out of 65536 odds where still too low at 300 baud
[17:06] <gonzo_> add the complexity to the learning curve that newcomers face anyway.......
[17:06] <fsphil> that's about 1 false positive every 300 seconds (with 300 baud 8N2)
[17:07] <gonzo_> how much of a mess would that make to a jpeg?
[17:07] <fsphil> jpeg itself is horrible at handling errors
[17:08] <gonzo_> (out of interest, how would a false +ve be handled with all the correct packjets that the server receives)
[17:09] <fsphil> (the 32-bit checksum it now uses would give a false positive every 227 days, assuming random input and no additional checks)
[17:09] <Myself> Yeah, a single errant bit can hose up the whole rest of a jpeg. Friends don't let friends send jpeg over unreliable links...
[17:10] <fsphil> gonzo_: all the false positives on the old one would create a new image
[17:10] <fsphil> usually very large with just a random bit of picture he middle somewhere
[17:10] <fsphil> he/in
[17:11] <fsphil> the
[17:11] <fsphil> please apply some FEC to that sentence
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[17:11] <gonzo_> was that an example for ARQ, rather than FEC!
[17:11] <gonzo_> snap
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[18:03] <arjunnaha> Two question: what is free lift and what is neck lift
[18:05] <mbales__> thats a good question, im not sure the difference between the two or if there is one
[18:06] <mbales__> i know neck lift is measured with a spring scale and its the amount of lift generated by the balloon by connecting the neck to the scale
[18:07] <mbales__> free lift (i think) is the amount of available lift of the balloon minus the weight of the balloon
[18:07] <mbales__> but im no expert just what i think
[18:07] <mbales__> so they are basically the same
[18:07] <arjunnaha> okay thx mbales_
[18:08] <mbales__> NP
[18:08] <fsphil> neck lift is how much lift the filled balloon has
[18:08] <mbales__> prepping for a launch?
[18:08] <fsphil> taking into account the weight of the balloon
[18:08] <fsphil> free lift is after the payload is added
[18:08] <mbales__> ah
[18:08] <mbales__> my mistake
[18:08] <fsphil> if you had 0 free lift, the balloon wouldn't rise or fall, just float
[18:09] <mbales__> thanks for the correction!
[18:09] <fsphil> with 0 neck lift, the balloon would float without any payload attached
[18:11] <fsphil> you generally only worry about neck lift, and use the calculator to work out the rest
[18:11] <fsphil> http://habhub.org/calc/
[18:12] <arjunnaha> fsphil sorry to be a n00b but what do you mean how much lift the filled balloon has ?
[18:13] <daveake> How much it pulls up
[18:14] <daveake> or how much weight you can attached to stop it going up
[18:14] <daveake> -ed
[18:14] <lz1dev> does your balloon even lift?
[18:14] <daveake> So, suppose the neck lift comes out as 1.8kg
[18:14] <daveake> and your filling assembly weighs 300g
[18:14] <arjunnaha> you mean on the ground
[18:15] <daveake> That's (1.8 - 0.3) 1.5kg left
[18:15] <daveake> So you fill a plastic bottle till it weighs 1.5kg
[18:15] <daveake> and attach that to the neck or filler
[18:15] <daveake> then fill the balloon till the bottle is held off the ground
[18:15] <arjunnaha> do I need to leave it on the ground attached to the bottle for some time?
[18:16] <daveake> A few seconds
[18:16] <daveake> Depends on the wind
[18:16] <daveake> You need to wait for a lull if it's windy
[18:16] <daveake> because the wind will lift the balloon
[18:17] <mbales__> or in my case blow it over into the ground and put a nice little pin hole in it
[18:17] <arjunnaha> and then presumably take off the bottle!
[18:17] <daveake> well yes
[18:18] <arjunnaha> sorry, i'm just learning of this
[18:18] <mbales__> and then you dont have enough helium to fill teh second balloon so then you used the balloon with a pin hole to fill a new balloon before topping it off with the remaining helium in the bottle
[18:18] <mbales__> that was a fun day
[18:19] <arjunnaha> daveake: how much does the pits+ board weigh with all of the antenna and stuff
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[18:22] <daveake> I don't know offhand, but it'll be somewhere around 125g or so inc batteries
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[18:28] <arjunnaha> how much does the pits board with a+ weigh?
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[18:47] <mbales__> slightly less i imagine
[18:48] <arjunnaha> which brand of parachutes do I use?
[18:49] <mbales__> parachutes matter very little in my experience, ive launched a number of payloads with and without parachutes with little noticible difference in recovering the payload intact
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[18:49] <adamgreig> uhm
[18:49] <adamgreig> I would defo advise using a parachute :p in many places it will also be a legal requirement
[18:49] <adamgreig> depends on payload mass and etc
[18:49] <adamgreig> but for a 'normal' hab payload..
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[18:49] <adamgreig> anyway arjunnaha http://randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Parachutes.html
[18:50] <lz1dev> mbales__: have evaluated the effects of hitting someone on the head?
[18:50] <mbales__> in the US the restrictions require a max density for the payload and as such even without a parachute they fall at a reasonable speed
[18:50] <mbales__> yes
[18:50] <adamgreig> your max density is pretty generous!
[18:50] <adamgreig> what sort of impact velocity do you encounter?
[18:51] <mbales__> unless you get an antenna in the eye theres very little damage to be done, i doubt it would knock you down
[18:52] <mbales__> never measured it but Ive seen them come down and it seemed reasonable
[18:53] <mbales__> we use styrofoam boxes so their fairly soft
[18:54] <craag> If you're just flying a tracker then it might be fine
[18:54] <craag> but with cameras in, a parachute is required imo
[18:54] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03TCOS01 after 037 days silence - 12http://habhub.org/t/#!qm=All&q=TCOS01
[18:55] <craag> I've flown pico payloads without parachutes
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[18:55] <mbales__> let me see if i can dig up a pic but we flew one with camera / tracker / data logger and the parachute came off fairly early on and the camera survived
[18:56] <mbales__> Im not saying its a good idea, just emphasising the point that a parachute failure isnt the end of the world
[18:56] <lz1dev> sure, but it's more in case you hit someone on the head
[18:56] <craag> we've had cameras survive parachutes getting tangled
[18:56] <craag> but I wouldn't have wanted it to hit me on the head
[18:57] <paul_HAB-P> sorry guys - just testing my rig - hoping to do some range testing later...
[18:57] <fsphil> np
[18:57] <fsphil> PS-30 has just the indian ocean left, then the big empty bit of australia
[18:57] <mbales__> I came very close to catching a payload without a chute, didnt have much concern for bodily harm
[18:58] <craag> how big are the styrofoam boxes you use?
[18:58] <adamgreig> I've flown pico payloads without parachutes before it was cool and hell did I catch flack for it!
[18:58] <mbales__> a little over a cubic foot
[18:58] <mfa298> I'd always ask the question would you be happy with it landing on your head / an angry lawyers green house. If there's a risk of broken skull / glass then it's probably coming down too quickly.
[18:58] <fsphil> or someone's brand new expensive car
[18:59] <mbales__> like i said i am in no way advising it, just my experience of parachute failures
[18:59] <daveake> I had one land on a car
[19:00] <adamgreig> I had one land almost on a car
[19:00] <daveake> parachute + soft payload with no sharp bits = no damage
[19:00] <adamgreig> it landed on the front bumper.. while the car was driving down an A road
[19:00] <mbales__> haha
[19:00] <mbales__> thats a good one
[19:01] <adamgreig> "landed on" there was a euphemism for "crashed into"
[19:01] <mbales__> we had one come within 50ft of the largest power substation in california, that would have been a bad day
[19:01] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 50 ft = 15 m
[19:01] <adamgreig> I take it you've seen all the same safety videos, the power station would probably have won
[19:01] <mbales__> oh yes, as it was coming down we were all preparing to call our lawyers
[19:02] <mbales__> or claim no involvment and let the ham whose call sign it was transmitting take the fall
[19:02] <mbales__> haha
[19:02] <mbales__> it ended up in a creek just under some hydro lines
[19:03] <craag> to sue them for vaporising your payload without noticing?
[19:03] <mbales__> in case they wanted to know where this large balloon that caused some damage came from
[19:04] <mbales__> though, that is also not a bad idea
[19:04] <craag> cusf have had a couple of military enquiries I believe
[19:04] <adamgreig> all sorts of fun
[19:04] <craag> after landing inside bases
[19:04] <mbales__> thats not super
[19:05] <craag> iirc, basically ended with them saying it wasn't a big deal as the MET office do it all the time, they just don't ask for them back
[19:06] <mbales__> our first launch we called the local air traffic control tower who told us youre not flying anything, called back a few minutes later and got someone who transferred us to another farther away but larger control tower, who transferred us to LAX, who transferred us to Vandenburg AFB, who said neat, where can i watch the progress?
[19:07] <craag> heh, I remember Vandenberg being that chilled out
[19:07] <craag> (stayed in their rv park a couple of years ago)
[19:07] <mbales__> I guess they launch balloons a couple of times a day
[19:08] <adamgreig> our local AFC love it, though the girl who used to call them "radiosonic balloons" has left :(
[19:08] <mbales__> haha radiosonic
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[19:09] <Myself> not a bad name for a bogus corp, Radiosonic Services... http://kk.org/cooltools/archives/158
[19:09] <mbales__> the last one the local ATC started out very interested and by the end of the call when we explained its size it started to feel a lot like registering a tricycle at the DMV
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[19:25] <storm_home> hello everyone :)
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[19:30] <mbales__> hello
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[19:49] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03BUZZ after 03a day silence - 12http://habhub.org/t/#!qm=All&q=BUZZ
[19:54] <fsphil> hmm,, buzz is really good at hide-and-seek
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[20:09] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[20:13] <mbales__> afternoon
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[20:57] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M0UPU-Chase - 12http://habhub.org/t/#!qm=All&q=M0UPU-Chase
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[22:00] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03KF5PGW-8 after 0313 days silence - 12http://habhub.org/t/#!qm=All&q=KF5PGW-8
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[22:30] <paul_HAB-P> Hmmm guess no range testing as its hurricane weather outside...
[22:32] <fsphil> does sound like it
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[22:49] <mbales__> which reminds me, some day i really want to make about 100 tiny trackers, attach them to balloons and let them go in a tornado or hurricane
[22:50] <mbales__> but we dont get any weather around ehre
[22:52] <paul_HAB-P> Is that not the plotline to Twister?
[22:52] <paul_HAB-P> i'm not saying it isn't a great idea...
[22:54] <fsphil> tornado in cornwall and shorpshire recently
[22:55] <mbales__> basically yes
[22:56] <mbales__> its just my secret inner desire to be helen hunt
[22:56] <paul_HAB-P> lmao!
[22:57] <paul_HAB-P> Once I get a few flights out the way, I'd like to do a high bandwidth downlink
[22:57] <mbales__> how wide?
[22:58] <mbales__> I have a setup i want to fly, an ardupilot with 900 mhz on the balloon and 900 mhz (patch / yagi) with antenna aimer on the ground and have that relay video / data etx
[22:58] <mbales__> etc
[22:58] <paul_HAB-P> basically - yes, but I'd like to try and use 802 bridge technology
[22:59] <mbales__> ah
[22:59] <paul_HAB-P> my brother makes boards which he uses up to 80Km
[22:59] <paul_HAB-P> KM
[22:59] <paul_HAB-P> so If I can get some cheap and find the right kind of aerials (at the right cost)
[22:59] <mbales__> wow thats pretty impressive, are those visible on the interwebs anywhere
[22:59] <paul_HAB-P> he puts them into mines, links islands, theme parks etc.
[23:00] <mbales__> 2.4ghz antennas arent terribly difficult to make
[23:00] <paul_HAB-P> Yeah but you'd need 4.8ghz MiMo's - if possible 3x3
[23:00] <paul_HAB-P> not that would be a meaty downlink
[23:01] <paul_HAB-P> here's his site: http://www.abicom.co.uk/
[23:02] <mbales__> interesting
[23:03] <paul_HAB-P> yeah (and very importantly, cheap to me lol)
[23:04] <paul_HAB-P> I've already sparked his interest so he might end up sorting it for me. - However, I think it would be really trick to then use the Habhub architecture to steer a PTZ with aerial on a chase vehicle.
[23:05] <paul_HAB-P> and it's not massively dissimilar to my last project (which was a NERF sentry running on Nodejs)
[23:06] <mbales__> now that would be some fun
[23:06] <paul_HAB-P> yeah - but 1 step at a time lol
[23:15] <mfa298> paul_HAB-P: licensing gets interesting for any sort of wireless network. The wifi clauses don't allow for airborne use (part of 5.8GHz is indoor only), and the bits of licensing in those bands that does allow airborne has a much lower power limit (and potentially bandwidth and/or duty cycle limits)
[23:17] <mfa298> also I'm not sure how well some wireless standards cope with movement I think some struggle with anything nuch above a walking pace.
[23:18] <Vaizki> mimo helps with that afaik
[23:19] <paul_HAB-P> Hmmm interesting - thanks mfa298 - Think I'll have a chat with bro about as I know he has already done some airborne but not sure where / who for.
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[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> good night! :)
[23:20] <mfa298> I think a number of the fpv lot ignore what the license allows but that's not recommended especially as baloons go much higher so can easily interfere with a lot more
[23:21] <paul_HAB-P> got it.
[23:21] <mfa298> and one of the things in the same band is radar (hence some of the restrictions for 5.8GHz wifi)
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[23:22] <paul_HAB-P> so possibly much better to go 2.4ghz? Also, although ideally 3x3, i would think 2x2 i much more achievable
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[23:22] <mfa298> I think 2.4GHz has similar licensing issues
[23:23] <fsphil> I've got a Pi-based payload with a usb wifi stick I'm hoping to fly sometime, with it in master mode
[23:23] <mfa298> you might be allowed 10mW eirp (so bigger antennas mean you have to turn the tx power down)
[23:23] <fsphil> publish the details and see who can connect to it
[23:23] <paul_HAB-P> yeah for sure!
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[23:24] <paul_HAB-P> sounds awesome, I will have to get a squarial sent down so I can listen out :)
[23:25] <fsphil> it'll need a big (probably not strictly legal) antenna on the ground
[23:27] <paul_HAB-P> Out of interest, would it be legally different if you listened from a boat?
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[23:29] <mfa298> it may be if you were in international waters although I'm not sure what the rules are and that would only apply to the boat station.
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[23:32] <fsphil> we're talking tiny amounts above the eirp limits, and on the ground. nobody's going to be kicking down your door :)
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[23:40] <DrLuke> is ublox6 still the bee's knees?
[23:42] <mbales__> ive used the 7 with no issues
[23:42] <mbales__> 6 seems to be more difficult to source lately
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[23:46] <craag> ubloxm8 is the new kid on the block
[23:47] <craag> can do gps+glonass concurrent if you don't use power saving mode
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[00:00] --- Thu Jan 15 2015