highaltitude.log.20141217

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[02:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ae7ys_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=ae7ys_chase
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[09:18] <fsphil> first!!1
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[09:25] <mfa298> spotted in #raspberrypi yesterday and possibly of some interest http://bellard.org/dvbt/
[09:26] <mfa298> not actually a raspberry pi project unfortunately
[09:26] <Reb-SM0ULC> saw that a few months ago. neat hack
[09:34] <paul_HAB-P> ok - where can I get an SMA to coax adapter without having to wait for 1 month for it to be shipped from China?
[09:35] <paul_HAB-P> Something like this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/SODIAL-SO-239-Connector-Coaxial-Adapter/dp/B00HUH9R28/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1418808788&sr=8-3&keywords=sma+to+uhf which I think is the right one to plug my funcube into my scavenged aerial...
[09:36] <mfa298> one of the radio shops might have them, nevada, martin Lynch, radio world, lam comms
[09:36] <paul_HAB-P> super cheers for the leads...
[09:37] <mfa298> although pl239 / so239 aren't the best connectors for this frequency band, and depending on what the antenna is the cable type/length you might want to check them out as well.
[09:38] <paul_HAB-P> I just want to get the funcube receiving something - Then I am going to make a couple of payload antennas and use one for rx
[09:38] <mfa298> for that sort of adapter you may also want to look at a short pigtail adapter (the two connectors with a bit of coax in the middle) as it could help take the strain off the sma connector.
[09:39] <paul_HAB-P> Good advice - ordered them last night :)
[09:41] <fsphil> beware RP-SMA
[09:41] <paul_HAB-P> yup - read up on that!
[09:41] <fsphil> if you're buying something to plug into the funcube dongle
[09:41] <fsphil> it's caught a few people out :)
[09:43] <fsphil> mfa298: I see bellard never did release the source for that
[09:43] <fsphil> shame
[09:43] <daveake> Yeah, if you find any rp-smas, melt them down
[09:44] <daveake> and use a pigtail rather than an adapter - less stress
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[09:49] <paul_HAB-P> Can I serve broadband and remote control the FCD+ from ghpsdr3? Is it overkill for multicasting baseband at home?
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[09:50] <paul_HAB-P> I've seen an FCD+ server here: https://github.com/bazuchan/ghpsdr3-fcdproplus-server
[09:50] <paul_HAB-P> when I read back, broadband should have read baseband.
[09:54] <Reb-SM0ULC> paul_HAB-P: don't you have any close electronic-shop with converters.. like sma to bnc
[09:55] <paul_HAB-P> but it's not to BNC - oh hang on, I could change the plug... <facepalm>
[09:56] <Reb-SM0ULC> :)
[09:57] <paul_HAB-P> you know, I'd have waited for a month for the adapter to turn up...
[09:57] <Reb-SM0ULC> http://www.electrokit.com/adapter-smahane-bnchona.45662
[09:57] <Reb-SM0ULC> sorry.. :)
[09:58] <paul_HAB-P> Maplin a couple of miles down the road. Time for an outing...
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[10:00] <edmoore> they won't have what you want
[10:00] <paul_HAB-P> http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/sma-plug-to-bnc-socket-adapter-rs85g
[10:01] <edmoore> regardless it's maplin
[10:01] <edmoore> they'll find some way to not have it
[10:01] <paul_HAB-P> lol
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[10:29] <gonzo_> we have one a few 100yds (dares sibot to intervene) from work. If it's raining we go there rather than walk around the bay. They never have what you want, but it's amasing what crap you end up buying.
[10:32] <navrac_2E0VKK> ah Darkside - can I pick your brain for a minute?
[10:33] <navrac_2E0VKK> oh my mistake I thought he was on a few minutes ago
[10:34] <navrac_2E0VKK> anyone good at RF circuitry?
[10:39] <gonzo_> best just throw the question in the air and see if anyone catches
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[10:57] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
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[11:43] <fsphil> morning
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[12:41] <jededu> ping upu
[12:42] <UpuWork> hey Jed
[12:46] <UpuWork> ping jededu
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[13:04] <jededu> Hi upu
[13:04] <jededu> Did you send the items to the school ?
[13:06] <edmoore> that's no way to talk about kids
[13:06] <UpuWork> huh huh
[13:06] <UpuWork> yes
[13:06] <UpuWork> Christmas post though
[13:08] <jededu> Ok np it will get there eventually
[13:09] <jededu> I have somthing that sounds like DominoEX but its just tones at the mo
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[14:08] <jededu> I am trying to make sense of dominoex16 could somebody explain it
[14:18] <pc1pcl-qrl> jededu: I guess you already read http://ava.upuaut.net/?p=633 ?
[14:19] <jededu> Yes every word I need to do it in BASIC
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[14:24] <pc1pcl-qrl> what I think the code does is go over each character in the message, and lookup the 3 voltages to set up in sequence from the tables of triplets given at the start.
[14:27] <fsphil> those values are not voltages
[14:27] <pc1pcl-qrl> not directly no,
[14:27] <fsphil> they are the difference between the current and next tone
[14:27] <fsphil> (+ 2)
[14:28] <fsphil> not all three are used every character
[14:28] <pc1pcl-qrl> yes, the are added to the last 'value' +2, then taken modulo 18, and then used with the analogue write to create a voltage on the pwm-pin
[14:28] <fsphil> some are shorter
[14:29] <fsphil> and that's basically it
[14:31] <jededu> Why +2
[14:32] <jededu> And what associates the character with the varicode
[14:32] <fsphil> the order of the varicodes is the same as ascii
[14:32] <pc1pcl-qrl> So I guess there are two challenges for jededu here: 1 duplicate the functionality of this code in basic, but also because his chip is likely different than the arduino so might need to change external network to get the same voltage to go to the radio input.
[14:33] <pc1pcl-qrl> there are 8 columsn and 32 rows in each 'alphabet'
[14:33] <pc1pcl-qrl> which matches the 256 8bit values you can send.
[14:33] <fsphil> the + 2 ensures a minimum shift at every symbol
[14:33] <pc1pcl-qrl> so basically there is a two dimensional array
[14:33] <fsphil> though + 1 might have worked too
[14:35] <jededu> I have the PWM working at the correct baud rate
[14:36] <pc1pcl-qrl> you index the array by the ascii value of the character you want to send, and retrieve the 0th , 1st and 2nd offset to calculate the successive values to output.
[14:37] <jededu> And I can read the vaircode and transmit it
[14:37] <pc1pcl-qrl> ok, so is there a specific stumbling block?
[14:39] <fsphil> http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg158/MDA2008/2674661882_6f40e42b78.jpg
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[14:40] <jededu> Funny :)
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[14:43] <jededu> All I am doing at the moment is transmitting the tones generated by the tables, I am just reading them sequentially nothing more
[14:45] <pc1pcl-qrl> ok, so you probably need to add each value to the previous value and add another '2' (and take the remainder of division by18) as the tables store differences.
[14:47] <jededu> Ok I get that Ill do it now
[14:47] <pc1pcl-qrl> if you used upu's exampel as a reference, I guess you have three subroutines 'tx_str', 'tx_chr' and 'tx_sym' (although probably with slightly different names)?
[14:50] <fsphil> you also need to check the second and third value for the 4th bit (0x08), which tells you if it gets sent or not
[14:50] <fsphil> iirc if it's not set, it doesn't get sent
[14:51] <fsphil> (or perhaps more easily, if the value is < 8 don't continue)
[14:51] <jededu> Thanks Im sort of getting it
[14:54] <pc1pcl-qrl> from the table it looksliek all the 'don't sends' are just '0'
[14:54] <fsphil> yea
[14:54] <fsphil> this part of thor is simpler
[14:58] <pc1pcl-qrl> the '8' bit is always clear for the first tone and always set for the 2 and 3 tone, to help with syncing. so the if(i && !(c & 0x8)) break; could probably be simply if (!c && i ) break
[15:01] <zyp> your explanation doesn't explain how (c & 8) can reduce to c
[15:07] <pc1pcl-qrl> C&8 is always tre for i in {1,2) and always false for i=0
[15:09] <pc1pcl-qrl> 5. The first nibble of a character Varicode (the I nitial nibble) is ALWAYS <8, i.e. 0  7.
[15:09] <pc1pcl-qrl> 6. Following nibbles of a character Varicode, if us ed (Continuation nibbles) are ALWAYS >7, i.e. 8  15.
[15:09] <pc1pcl-qrl> 7. It is suggested that in tables maintained within the actual software, all Varicodes be regularized to three nibbles (n,n,n) , and unwanted trailing nibbles set to 0, which is an invalid value for 2-n ibble and 3-nibble codes. For example Varicode 2 becomes 2,0
[15:10] <pc1pcl-qrl> that 'if' tries to decide if the nible is used, which it is if it is the first nibble, or >8 if it is nibble 2 or 3.
[15:11] <pc1pcl-qrl> but the table using zeroes for the unwanted secondary and tertiary nibbles, so >8 is the same as >0
[15:13] <fsphil> easier to keep the first symbol out of the loop
[15:13] <fsphil> dominoex_txsym(varicode[vcode][0]);
[15:14] <fsphil> then send the others as appropriate
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[15:31] <jededu> So at this point in upu's code _sym = 0 ?
[15:31] <jededu> _sym = (_sym + 2 + sym) % 18;
[15:31] <fsphil> it could start at any number between and including 0 - 17
[15:32] <fsphil> in upu's code yea it's 0 to begin with
[15:32] <fsphil> uint8_t _sym = 0;
[15:33] <jededu> Ahh
[15:33] <fsphil> the absolute value doesn't matter, it's the differences that carry the data
[15:34] <jededu> That makes far more sense
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[15:51] <pc1pcl> keep in mind it is a global variable so it is whatever it was left at after the last iteration.
[16:03] <fsphil> this odd way of doing things was inherited from fldigi :)
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[17:42] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[17:43] <daveake> evening
[17:43] <daveake> What's new for your next launch?
[17:43] <Lunar_Lander> somewhere in January, some testing still has to commence
[17:43] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[17:44] <daveake> Anything new for the flight? Different tracker? New physics tests?
[17:44] <daveake> Perhaps this time land on a frozen river? :p
[17:47] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[17:49] <Lunar_Lander> we do a mechanical cutdown this time based on a servo, a radiometer to measure solar intensity (and mainly to determine exactly where the cloud layer begins and ends), we compare the DS18B20 in a tube (like last time) to one in a motor ventilated tube (i.e. aspiration) and fly the NTX2B because that is much more stable :)
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[17:57] <daveake> Yes it's very stable
[17:58] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[18:00] <ike> what are going to do with battery problem?
[18:00] <ike> battery won't charge after 6 mounths at -40*
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> preheating the battery is quite possible
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> And ensuring it's not at -40C on charge
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[18:16] <Laurenceb> or longwave IR power
[18:16] <Laurenceb> no need for batteries
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[18:42] <Laurenceb> anyone knopw how to merge gerbers in gerbv?
[18:42] <edmoore> i can merge them with git if that helps
[18:42] <edmoore> though the pcbs often come out looking a bit odd afterwards
[18:42] <edmoore> work in progress
[18:42] <Laurenceb> lol
[18:43] <Laurenceb> rage
[18:44] <Laurenceb> text editor time
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[18:47] <Laurenceb> arggggg
[18:47] <Laurenceb> so much fail
[18:47] <Laurenceb> wtf
[18:48] <Laurenceb> how can this not be easy
[18:48] <mattbrejza> theres a script for panelising gerbers that works
[18:48] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:48] <mattbrejza> its not particularly easy to use obviously
[18:48] <Laurenceb> i was hoping for something easier to use
[18:48] <Laurenceb> i need to add to gerbers together
[18:48] <Laurenceb> copypaste screws up the apertures
[18:49] <mattbrejza> i had to resort to panelising in eagle which is less than ideal (rotating ends badly as it screws text up for starters)
[18:49] <Laurenceb> yeah
[18:49] <Laurenceb> i see lots of tutorials for using gerbv
[18:49] <Laurenceb> but i can only ever export 1 gerber layer at a timer
[18:49] <Laurenceb> *time
[18:50] <mattbrejza> you need to find hte software board houses use and 'aquire' it
[18:51] <Laurenceb> i need to catch a train :-/
[18:51] <Laurenceb> so much for submitting this board tonight :-/
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[19:28] <Upu> hey Laurenceb struggling with panelising ?
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[20:46] <mcbcurator> what sort of external temperatures do people see on their balloons? what sort of sensor range is required for temp sensors?
[20:48] <edmoore> -55 is about as chilly as you're likely to see
[20:48] <bertrik> -50 to +40 deg C or so
[20:48] <edmoore> it's worth observing that measuring air temperature at low densities is hard
[20:49] <edmoore> if you're really interested in doing a good job you have to put some thought in
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[20:49] <edmoore> usually people measure the temperature of their temperature-sensor
[20:49] <edmoore> which is not the same thing as air temperature
[20:49] <mcbcurator> damn, so the cute little -40 C i2c breakout board won't cut it.
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[20:49] <edmoore> better than nothing!
[20:50] <edmoore> as i say it might not measure air temp
[20:50] <edmoore> so -40 might be fine
[20:50] <edmoore> if you had a payload enclosure it's probably that it will stay warm internaly
[20:50] <mattbrejza> get some 50um platinum wire and measure its resistance
[20:51] <mcbcurator> What I was planning was a measurement inside the compartment, and then an external sensor attached to the outside of the box.
[20:52] <edmoore> good idea
[20:52] <edmoore> so yes, you may wish to look for something that goes a little lower
[20:52] <edmoore> the issue is that most semi-conducting physics stops at about -55C
[20:52] <edmoore> so you probably won't find a neat little thing with a digital interface that is designed to operate at -55
[20:53] <edmoore> but if you're willing to go analogue, for example what mattbrejza suggested, you've a lot of options
[20:53] <mcbcurator> Well, I'm providing the platform and basic information for various schools that will have payloads along in our balloons. So maybe I'll leave external sensing as an exercise for our junior scientists!
[20:53] <edmoore> good idea!
[20:53] <edmoore> though it's fun to have a reference for them to compare against
[20:54] <edmoore> you could save it for a second flight
[20:54] <edmoore> :)
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[20:55] <mcbcurator> Remarkably many schools are apathetic about the possibility of having their students design experiments to integrate with the balloon, despite STEM education being a huge deal lately.
[20:55] <edmoore> risk
[20:55] <mcbcurator> risk of?
[20:55] <edmoore> having gone through the cycle of working with schools on hab a few times
[20:56] <edmoore> it's a sort of open-ended non-deterministic activity
[20:56] <edmoore> you can't say 'i can do this over 2 double-periods and have results by july the 16th and review them on the lesson on the 17th and then start revision for this gcse module' etc etc
[20:56] <mcbcurator> Yeah, while they're not actually going to be launching it themselves, there's definitely the possibility that we'll lose the payload. But hey, that happens to real scientists too.
[20:57] <mcbcurator> as I know all to well. We had objects bound for our museum on the ORB-3 Antares flight that exploded.
[20:57] <edmoore> my friend had 26 sats on that
[20:57] <edmoore> bad day for him
[20:57] <mcbcurator> oooooh. Yeah, that was a terrible day.
[20:58] <edmoore> rockets are fun eh?
[20:58] <edmoore> keep you on your toes
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[21:01] <edmoore> mcbcurator, are you US-based?
[21:01] <mcbcurator> yeah, south Texas
[21:01] <mcbcurator> Museum of the Coastal Bend, Victoria, TX
[21:03] <edmoore> cool
[21:04] <edmoore> i think a lot of the US educational ballooners target undergrad programmes
[21:04] <edmoore> a lot more room for manouvre with working a hab project into the curriculum
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[21:05] <mcbcurator> yeah, I've put feelers out for them too. We have at least two launches funded (assuming we don't lose the electronics and cameras on the first one), and we'll have space for science aboard both of them.
[21:05] <edmoore> cool
[21:06] <edmoore> these guys have been doing it forever
[21:06] <edmoore> http://eoss.org/
[21:07] <kc2pit_> edmoore: Whom do you know at Planet Labs?
[21:07] <edmoore> a number of them!
[21:08] <edmoore> i was at university with one of their main guys
[21:09] <edmoore> and will marshall i know, also a brit
[21:09] <kc2pit_> Somebody I know has been semi-claiming the world record for losing the most spacecraft in a single event. He's at Planet now, and worked on that batch of Doves, but also interned at Planetary Resources working on their Arkyd cubethingy.
[21:10] <edmoore> i visited at the beginning of last year
[21:10] <edmoore> i think they're grown a lot since then
[21:11] <edmoore> a lot of the guys i know where were refugees from joby/makani
[21:26] <edmoore> kc2pit_, i don't know much about planetary resources
[21:26] <edmoore> it seems a little far-fetched
[21:27] <edmoore> but then if you have the right address book you can probably get find someone to fund you to keep an office open for a few years with a couple of guys working on a cube and someone working on press releases
[21:28] <kc2pit_> Quite. Somebody's going to succeed at it someday. But when a lot of people are looking at a gradually improving cost:benefit ratio, the first one to say "Yep, it's good enough now, time to jump in!" is almost certainly wrong.
[21:30] <kc2pit_> Also, it sounds like they design and build according to a very traditional spaceflight philosophy, even for a cubesat. That probably isn't going to serve them well.
[21:30] <mcbcurator> Like those guys supposedly working on a Mars colony.
[21:31] <kc2pit_> Mars One is so absurd I'm convinced nobody could be running that in good faith.
[21:31] <mcbcurator> I am 99.5% sure it's a massive scam.
[21:31] <mcbcurator> With 0.5% reserved for massive self-delusion
[21:31] <edmoore> there are usually people behind these activities with reputations for generating more heat than light
[21:32] <edmoore> it works for a while then stops
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[22:12] <SpeedEvil> http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/6868318/6868318.pdf - for example
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> In principle - this could be truly excellent for earth-mars shuttles.
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> This is a high ISP (~1M) nuclear powered rocket.
[22:13] <SpeedEvil> Which actually looks sort-of-plausible.
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> Musk is making interesting noises.
[22:14] <SpeedEvil> Which could in principle get to $500/kg or so to earth orbit. But that's quite a lot once you get to mars landing $/kg
[22:16] <edmoore> where are musks noises on this issue SpeedEvil
[22:18] <SpeedEvil> Elon Musk @elonmusk ยท 6 Jun 2013
[22:18] <SpeedEvil> No near term plans to IPO @SpaceX. Only possible in very long term when Mars Colonial Transporter is flying regularly.
[22:18] <SpeedEvil> for example
[22:19] <edmoore> oh right
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> I don't think he's commented at all on Mars One.
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> If that's what you were meaning.
[22:19] <edmoore> i thought you meant he was making noises about fission engines
[22:19] <edmoore> not mars generally
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> ah
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> No. :)
[22:19] <SpeedEvil> Sorry for being confusing.
[22:20] <SpeedEvil> The nuclear engine is a 'would be really nice' for mars, but pretty much essential for jupiter manned missions say
[22:20] <SpeedEvil> It in principle makes stupid things like uranus sample return possible.
[22:20] <arko> hadfield had a good answers about going to mars https://soundcloud.com/guardianscienceweekly/chris-hadfield-on-the-future
[22:20] <arko> its obv to engineers/scientist
[22:20] <SpeedEvil> (well, not actual uranus, due to the stupid G field of gas giants)
[22:20] <arko> but a good response for the gen public
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[22:21] <SpeedEvil> First thing we need to do is to lower the cost of launch. Or it's all a bit pointless.
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> SLS looks like it's going to be $1000/kg of rocket on the tower. Which is impressive in its own way.
[22:22] <arko> http://xkcd.com/1461/
[22:24] <arko> you know, i believe skylon or a skylon like design is going to win for actually moving people back and forth
[22:24] <arko> and no ed didnt pay me to say that
[22:24] <arko> it just makes sense
[22:24] <arko> so much is wasted in modern designs
[22:24] <edmoore> i'll personally pay for UKHAS conf 2021 if SLS launches on time or budget
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: hah
[22:24] <arko> LOL
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: I think that's a pretty safe bet.
[22:24] <arko> edmoore: test launch?
[22:24] <edmoore> btw we're nearer ukhas conf 2021 than i am my first hab launch
[22:25] <arko> christ
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> And skylon makes a hell of a lot of sense.
[22:25] <arko> indeed
[22:25] <arko> i wish nasa would try for something similar :/
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> It's a hell of a technological leap - but of course that doesn't mean it's impossible.
[22:25] <SpeedEvil> arko: they did
[22:26] <edmoore> yeah well we have plenty of work to do
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> arko: venturestar/x33
[22:26] <edmoore> so far so good
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> Three seperate untried technologies on one vehicle.
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> Oh yes. They wanted that to succeed so bad.
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> I once read that the Saturns could have been made into a comparatively cheap and strong rocket
[22:26] <arko> SpeedEvil: both those require a rocket to get them up there no?
[22:27] <arko> separate rocket
[22:27] <mattbrejza> three untried things on SLS?
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> a rocket which would have been called Saturn II if made
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> arko: no - x33 was a testbed in principle for SSTO
[22:28] <arko> ah
[22:28] <arko> never really looked into it
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> mattbrejza: Conformal tanks, metallic TPS, aerospike noxxles - for x33
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> All it ever did was sit on a webcam and look expensive.
[22:29] <mattbrejza> thats three things to google
[22:29] <SpeedEvil> Metalic TPS = metalic thermal protection - metal skin, not tiles.
[22:29] <SpeedEvil> Aerospikes are a wierd rocket engine who someones nicked the nozzle off of, and someone else claims will still work fine.
[22:30] <SpeedEvil> And conformal tanks are wierd non-cylindrical, non-spherical tanks that are still lightweight
[22:30] <mattbrejza> oh cool thanks
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> when I get the XKCD right, Saturn V was and is the most powerful rocket ever flown?
[22:30] <edmoore> yes
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:31] <mattbrejza> more power output than the peak UK usage (as widely quoted)
[22:31] <SpeedEvil> I question if NASA could have done a cheap saturn.
[22:31] <SpeedEvil> NACA was a productive relatively low budget organisation.
[22:31] <SpeedEvil> NASA got poisoned by 'waste anything but time'.
[22:32] <SpeedEvil> The fundamental problem for making cheap rockets is that the companies involved would really rather make one rocket for a billion dollars, not a hundred for ten million each.
[22:33] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:35] <Lunar_Lander> to sidetrack for a moment
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> I find it funny how the new plan for the Ariane 6 looks like the HII-A and HII-B of Japan
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> or like Ariane 5 with short SRBs
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> There are very limited things you can do with rockets :)
[22:36] <Lunar_Lander> true :)
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> Though early soviet ones did tend ratehr to the triangular, not cylindrical
[22:37] <Lunar_Lander> yea, R-7 and all the versions through Soyuz today
[22:38] <SpeedEvil> ^conical
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> Boris Chertok describes why Korolev made it that way, something about having that surrounding metal structure that opens automatically on launch and other reasons
[22:38] <Lunar_Lander> have to read it up in rockets and people again
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[23:02] <Lunar_Lander> good night :)
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[23:07] <SpeedEvil> http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=36140.0;attach=626420;image
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[23:20] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXv-6i7aJT0 - I think the rooster-tails on the barge may be optimistic
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