highaltitude.log.20141216

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[08:15] <jededu> Just looking at spacenearus/tracker, the path for EDUPIC10 is very short ?
[08:17] <jededu> Actually it gets shorter every day is this some sort of auto delete ? :)
[08:18] <fsphil> might only be showing the last 24 hours
[08:18] <jededu> mmm
[08:19] <jededu> Could be
[08:21] <lz1dev> top right corner of the map
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[08:22] <jededu> Ahh found it lzldev thx
[08:23] <fsphil> amazing how easy it is to miss things
[08:23] <jededu> Indeed :0
[08:23] <lz1dev> people are not used to that, since the old tracker didnt have it
[08:24] <lz1dev> !ping b-64
[08:24] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Last contact with 03B-64 was 0323 days ago
[08:45] <superkuh> :\
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[09:29] <day> i know that some here have microsats in orbit. DO they really reenter atmosphere in less than 6month? Seems kinda ridiculous for the price you pay :o
[09:40] <gonzo_> for many student projects, they only need to be working for weeks, not months
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[09:44] <mfa298> I think some of the non student ones have been up for a while (funcube was launched november last year and I think is still going)
[09:46] <mfa298> and the same looks to be true for $50sat even with it's rfm22
[09:49] <edmoore> (which has been proved reliable)
[09:49] <edmoore> (where reliable means you have to constantly reset it to stop it locking up)
[09:51] <pc1pcl-qrl> msg pc1pcl e03,04teste
[09:51] <pc1pcl-qrl> fail x2 ;)
[09:52] <mfa298> pc1pcl-qrl: you want /msg pc1pc1 test
[09:52] <mfa298> or more generic: /msg <nick> <text>
[09:52] <pc1pcl-qrl> yup, that was the first fail ;) and the test itself didn't work as hoped, so that was the second failure.
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[10:32] <day> mfa298: the sat costs 50$ or the launch? Because so far i couldnt find a price for the launch.
[10:32] <Darkside> lol
[10:32] <day> But i expected the launch to be at least xxxx¬
[10:32] <Darkside> lol would cost slightly more than $50
[10:32] <Darkside> maybe a few orders of magnitude higher
[10:33] <day> i think i go with UPS then
[10:36] <day> but then i dont understand why mfa298 meantioned the price. Because a 5000$ sat isnt going to stay in orbit longer than a 50$ sat :/
[10:37] <Darkside> it was the name of the project
[10:37] <Darkside> the claim was the bill-of-materials for the sat was $50
[10:37] <day> oh ... a splendit name :D
[10:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://www.50dollarsat.info/
[10:39] <day> The low build cost of $50SAT (less than $250
[10:39] <day> in parts) means that Engineering models are readily affordable by
[10:39] <day> do i have to understand that logic?
[10:40] <day> aside from 50!=250
[10:40] <Darkside> lol
[10:40] <day> they will have to pay a massive amount for the launch anyways
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[10:53] <craag> student microsats often get free launch slots from esa and the like, which will be for whatever launch they have slots free, so can be low and <6 month re-entry, or higher and a lot longer.
[10:54] <edmoore> although i understna dit's getting a bit harder to secure slots at the min
[10:54] <edmoore> supply/demand
[10:54] <craag> yeah - not just
[10:55] <craag> "oh you're students here's a slot" anymore - lots of selection
[10:55] <amell_> !ping b-64
[10:55] <SpacenearUS> 03amell_: Last contact with 03B-64 was 0323 days ago
[10:56] <craag> UoS3 has been promised a slot - but not allocated yet so have been warned it *could* be <6 month, although they're all hoping a lot more.
[10:56] <edmoore> who are you flying with?
[10:56] <craag> they're flying with esa
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[11:03] <diegoesep> the cost for launch was around 20000$ for the 50$ sat payload
[11:04] <edmoore> that's not bad
[11:04] <diegoesep> I think that you can expect around 1 year or more in orbit
[11:05] <diegoesep> but the launching slots are difficult to find
[11:05] <edmoore> you can get accidently put into the worng orbit
[11:06] <edmoore> i know people whove had sats on various rocket in the last 18months that have ended up in rather surprising orbits
[11:06] <edmoore> and reentered after a few weeks
[11:06] <craag> :/
[11:07] <diegoesep> it looks like the microsat hobby is much more stressfull compared to hab :)
[11:07] <craag> slightly different tier of 'hobby' I think ;)
[11:08] <edmoore> indeed
[11:08] <diegoesep> but seems the logical next step after HAB :)
[11:08] <Darkside> hah
[11:08] <Darkside> i had bruce perens tell me that
[11:08] <Darkside> "real men go into orbit"
[11:09] <edmoore> bruce tremens
[11:09] <Darkside> this was in a conversation where him and jacob applebaum were trying to get me to open source my balloon payload designs and start a training organisation in australia
[11:09] <Darkside> bit of a weird conversation
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[11:10] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[11:11] <edmoore> i think we're not far off the stage where a cubesat person will buy a whole rocket
[11:11] <edmoore> to launch their constellation
[11:12] <craag> Would that change the state of the rocket market, allowing room for more competition for example?
[11:13] <Lunar_LanderU> just like cubesats deployed by a Dnepr rocket but just having cubesats of one group onboard?
[11:13] <diegoesep> and pocketqube too :)
[11:13] <Darkside> dnepr rockets are awesome
[11:13] <Darkside> i love the launch process for them
[11:13] <Lunar_LanderU> yea
[11:14] <edmoore> craag, not reallt yet
[11:14] <edmoore> you're only going to buy buying old russian icbm's
[11:14] <edmoore> everything else still too expensive
[11:14] <craag> heh ok
[11:15] <edmoore> to compete you'd need a modern dnepr-replacement for a <=$5M/launch i reckon
[11:15] <edmoore> doesn't currently exist
[11:15] <diegoesep> are there active irc channels for microsats ? I have tried cubesat but it is not too much active
[11:15] <edmoore> not that i'm aware of
[11:15] <edmoore> i suspect here is as good as any
[11:15] <edmoore> it's not that big a world
[11:16] <Lunar_LanderU> how expensive is Vega?
[11:16] <fsphil> high altitude certainly covers orbit :)
[11:16] <diegoesep> any low earth orbit is highaltitude :)
[11:16] <diegoesep> yes
[11:16] <diegoesep> anyway low earth orbit is highaltitude :)
[11:17] <Lunar_LanderU> brb
[11:17] <edmoore> Lunar_LanderU, too?
[11:18] <fsphil> we need details
[11:18] <Maxell> OH6DC Dual banana CW paddle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJKZ76Npo-o
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[12:16] <Lunar_LanderU> back
[12:16] <Lunar_LanderU> if I am making a cubesat? no
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[12:21] <HF_ATL> hello all
[12:21] <HF_ATL> any arduino guru around here? ;)
[12:22] <pc1pcl-qrl> probably depends on your definition of guru ;)
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[12:24] <HF_ATL> atm just want to know if the latest rev3 arduino can be used with the telemetry shield (habduino)
[12:24] <HF_ATL> *uno
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[12:26] <jarod> There will be a transmission with the Alexanderson 200 kW alternator on VLF 17.2 kHz from Grimeton Radio/SAQ on Christmas Eve, Wednesday, December 24th, 2014.
[12:26] <jarod> The message transmission will take place at 08:00 UTC (09:00 local time). The transmitter will be tuned up from around 07:30 UTC (08:30 local time).
[12:27] <gonzo_> it is interesting to justen to then during the setup
[12:27] <gonzo_> listen
[12:27] <gonzo_> you can hear them 'tuning' as they crank the goveror with a spanner
[12:28] <gonzo_> and it drifts as the mark/space ratio of the keying changes and loads the altenator
[12:28] <craag> HF_ATL: I'd be surprised if they've broken any compatibility
[12:29] <craag> Looks fine to me
[12:29] <craag> A few silkscreen and layout changes but no changes to the headers
[12:29] <HF_ATL> just to be sure as I'm considering buying the shield and have not any arduino
[12:31] <craag> Yep it'll be fine
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[12:31] <HF_ATL> I've already seen the changes for rev3 in arduino website but not having the shield I can't be sure
[12:32] <craag> THere's no changes that'll break it
[12:32] <craag> A couple of extra pins it looks like - the habduino will just plug into the ones it needs
[12:33] <HF_ATL> so probably it will just be the time to upload directly the code after stacking the shield and it will be ready to use I suppose?
[12:33] <craag> Yep, you'll need to sort out connecting batteries and make the antenna as per the tutoiral
[12:33] <craag> *tutorial
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[12:34] <craag> Then should *just work*
[12:34] <HF_ATL> also Im considering buying additional arduino sensors to include in the pars packets
[12:34] <HF_ATL> *aprs
[12:34] <craag> That you will need to make changes to the code for - so get a simple version working first :)
[12:34] <craag> Then you can always roll back if it doesn't work or you run out of time
[12:35] <HF_ATL> yes will be that way but guess someone already have done that and could help in any way :)
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[12:35] <craag> Yes I'm sure people will be able to help :)
[12:35] <Lunar_LanderU> I can only strongly suggest like craag did to get the basic system working first
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[12:36] <HF_ATL> also I've seen people used magnetic mount external gps antenna but without a ground plane in the payload box wonder what's the advantage of having a mag mount (more weight)
[12:36] <craag> The habduino is designed for use with the active gps antennas
[12:37] <craag> If you can find a compatible one without the magnet, that would make sense for weight
[12:37] <HF_ATL> yeah I've been looking but no luck, most of sma gps antennas are mag because they are intended to use in a car
[12:38] <craag> The school I worked with just glued the magmount one onto the top of the polystyrene box
[12:38] <HF_ATL> also with a ridiculous 3m+ rg174 cable which for 1575MHz introduce some significative loss
[12:38] <Lunar_LanderU> there is no easy way to get the magnet out of the box I suppose?
[12:38] <craag> HF_ATL: There's a preamp in the black box which is designed to mitigate the cable loss
[12:38] <craag> does it very well
[12:39] <craag> Lunar_LanderU: YOu could, but you do risk breaking it by opening it (might be glued shut)
[12:39] <HF_ATL> i guess you can but probably you will end with a not so tight closed enclosure to guarantee waterproof
[12:39] <craag> That too
[12:39] <Lunar_LanderU> oh ok
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[12:40] <craag> The active antennas do tend to perform better than the passive ones despite the cable
[12:40] <craag> Another tip I've heard is to put a large square of foil under it on the top of the box
[12:40] <HF_ATL> and for what I've seen you can get them very cheap on ebay
[12:40] <HF_ATL> but with 60g weight
[12:40] <craag> Yeah - or anthony sells them too I believe
[12:41] <HF_ATL> yes, it will act as a reflector improving gps signals reception but on the other hand it will influence the radiation of the tx antenna
[12:41] <craag> Your tx antenna should be out of the bottom of the box, with it's own ground plane on the bottom of the box
[12:41] <craag> So will not be affected at all
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[12:42] <HF_ATL> depends on your payload box dimensions :)
[12:42] <craag> see bottom of http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payload_antenna
[12:42] <gonzo_> some gps antennas will be designed to mount on a ground plane. If so, then you sould have one
[12:42] <craag> err, whatever size it is, you gps antenna should be the other side of the TX groundplane to the radiating element
[12:43] <craag> so no effect (none worth worrying about anyway)
[12:44] <craag> Yes the magmount gps antennas are designed for use with a groundplane, hence me suggesting it. Although in the cushy world of hab-conditions, they work fine without it.
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[12:45] <HF_ATL> guess I'll try to contact the seller to inquiry for a 1m length cable instead of the 3m+
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[12:45] <craag> If you can find one with a short cable - I'd be interested too :)
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[12:46] <craag> Considered making my own just to avoid having to coil 2.5m of cable in the box.. (non hab stuff)
[12:46] <HF_ATL> If I have the crimping tools then no problem, but I don't so I really will try to find a 1m cable length with SMA already crimped
[12:46] <craag> mm
[12:47] <HF_ATL> or directly solder a SMA pigtail, I hade many laying around from other projects
[12:48] <gonzo_> I suspect that the ceramic patch antennas don't need much of a groundplane. And what is usully inside the plastic/moulded puck is a patch on a bit of a groundplane, with an LNA on the back
[12:48] <HF_ATL> but in that case I have to open it
[12:49] <HF_ATL> yeah and they claim 28db gain which I doubt, also a good LNA cost money, so I assume that the SNR will not be much improved with that antenna
[12:49] <HF_ATL> at least the 1575 is a clean freq
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[12:49] <gonzo_> be a bit careful if using an active antenna that was shipped with 10ft of coax, then cutting it short. As I have seen the RX being overloaded by the excess gain, when you don't have lots of lossy coax
[12:49] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 10 ft = 3.05 m
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[12:50] <gonzo_> nopw, it's 10ft
[12:50] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 10 ft = 3.05 m
[12:50] <HF_ATL> yeah good point
[12:50] <gonzo_> sibot is persistant
[12:50] <gonzo_> the 28db probably inclodes the lna gain
[12:51] <gonzo_> and low noise gain is cheap thse dasys
[12:51] <edmoore> 10 ft. Dr Dré
[12:51] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 10 ft = 3.05 m
[12:51] <paul_HAB-P> Yay funcube working in GQRX :)
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[12:52] <HF_ATL> they are also passive ceramic patch antenna, with alu foil back it will also improve reception and will be a lightweight solution
[12:53] <HF_ATL> *external (with sma connector)
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[12:56] <gonzo_> the rx madules are sensitive these days and even the tiny chip antennas that upu puts on his breakout boards work supprisingly well.
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[12:58] <db_g6gzh> The HAB supplies one I got about a year ago for NTP server has 1m cable (which is actually a bit short for re-using it on the car now I have an outside antenna) but I see it now says 3m
[12:59] <HF_ATL> yeah, also the payload has always a clear unobstrucuted view of the sky, excellent conditions compared with the ground usage
[13:00] <edmoore> indeed
[13:00] <edmoore> it's a nice environment
[13:00] <edmoore> and hopefully less other interference generally
[13:00] <edmoore> unless your pcb is noisey
[13:04] <db_g6gzh> having just looked at it the habduino kit includes "GPS Antenna with 0.5m cable." anyway
[13:04] <craag> HF_ATL: ^^
[13:05] <edmoore> the ublox has some gain control so hopefully it cane cope with a fair bit
[13:05] <edmoore> it's not a noddy front-end
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[13:22] <Laurenceb> http://modlabupenn.org/underactuated-rotor/
[13:22] <Laurenceb> ^genius
[13:26] <pc1pcl-qrl> So, they're modulating the speed of the rotor to control direction ?
[13:28] <diegoesep> ccon
[13:28] <diegoesep> sorry bad console :)
[13:34] <Laurenceb> yup
[13:37] <pc1pcl-qrl> wondering if that would scale up, or is just something you can get away with with on the small 'drones' that are all the rage now.
[13:37] <Laurenceb> problem with their scheme is it needs position sense
[13:38] <SpeedEvil> I would here link properly, but I can't be arsed.
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> NASA did some interesting research into aerodynamically powered swashplates
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> you run two tubes along the rotor
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> one is open at the base, one at the tip
[13:39] <edmoore> i saw something really fascinating about rocket-assisted helicoper rotors
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> between these tubes, you put fast operating servo valves and air powered flap activators
[13:40] <SpeedEvil> can replace the swashplate entirely without requiring external power
[13:40] <edmoore> they blades were hollow, at the tip of the blades was a silver catalyst pack and a nozzle pointed tangentially
[13:40] <SpeedEvil> yeha - tip helicopters are fun
[13:40] <edmoore> peroxide was injected into the root of the blades and the centrifugal force on the blades accelerated to peroxide into the cat pack with a high pressure
[13:41] <edmoore> and the resulting rocket action from the nozzle could lift the helis off really very very quickly
[13:41] <edmoore> i think it was to get out of harms way on the battle field extremely quickly when dropping troops off
[13:42] Action: Laurenceb suspects AfroESC with optical tacho going into the PWM input and commands via I2C would work
[13:43] <Laurenceb> having said that, my AfroESC doesnt skip unless you do something stupid
[13:43] <Laurenceb> so you could map its reported angular position to true position using an IMU and kalman filter
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> As motors increase in size, the natural resonant frequency of the motor will fall
[13:50] <SpeedEvil> at some point this falls below the prop frequency
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[13:53] <pc1pcl-qrl> http://www.birthdaydirect.com/images/18844-balloon-air-helicopter.jpg
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[13:58] <HF_ATL_> back again
[13:59] <edmoore> welcome
[13:59] <HF_ATL_> thank you
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[14:00] <HF_ATL_> yeah just read that it comes with 0.5m cable
[14:01] <HF_ATL_> but don't mention what kind of antenna and no pics
[14:01] <HF_ATL_> maybe the store owner can shed some light
[14:01] <craag> It'll be a magnetic-type active
[14:01] <craag> Yeah ping him an email
[14:02] <HF_ATL_> is it upuwork?
[14:02] <craag> It is
[14:02] <HF_ATL_> can you please tell me his email?
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[14:05] <HF_ATL_> or just use the store contact form?
[14:06] <craag> store contact form should be fine
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[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: that is neat. Also - I don't think it does need a position sensor
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: you can do all the position sensing with EMF - there is no gearbox between the motor and prop
[14:19] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Plus - I think you can drop one motor.
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Go to one motor, plus fixed aerofoils in the propwash to kill torque.
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[14:21] <SpeedEvil> EMF + some 'work out which way the control axis is pointing + cogging I think works.
[14:21] <pc1pcl-qrl> maybe they want torque to aim a camera/laser? position sensing could be done by pilot if feedback loop tight enough and some sort of feedback of where the gun is pointing?
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[15:23] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hot-Melt-Edge-Bander-/321618386228?ssPageName=ADME:SS:SS:US:1120
[15:27] <navrac_2E0VKK> hmm - I'm not buying that - I'm still trying to remember where I left a lathe I used to own
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[15:42] <daveake> It'll turn up some day
[15:43] <SpeedEvil> That is some world-record level untidiness.
[15:50] <Myself> Oh I seem to have misplaced my stamping press..
[15:53] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: not quite
[15:54] <Laurenceb> with modified AfroESC firmware I'm getting position
[15:54] <Laurenceb> but its only relative, I dont know starting positing, at least on a motor with lots of poles
[15:54] <SpeedEvil> yes, you don't
[15:55] <SpeedEvil> I'm assuming that you know the number of poles, and the airframe is trimmed well enough it doesn't need massive control in the ~0.5s after lift-off
[15:55] <Laurenceb> yes
[15:55] <SpeedEvil> Put in a control input and see which way it goes
[15:55] <Laurenceb> itd probably work
[15:55] <Laurenceb> but an optical tacho is simple
[15:55] <SpeedEvil> Sure.
[15:55] <Laurenceb> stick it into PWM input on afro esc, it has input capture
[15:56] <SpeedEvil> I would be surprised if you couldn't actually pull it off in one rev
[15:56] <Laurenceb> then three control input channels on I2C
[15:56] <Laurenceb> hmmm
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Look at 1:15
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> That is a really, really significant orientation change per rev
[15:57] <SpeedEvil> trivially pick-upable by a gyro
[15:58] <SpeedEvil> You can actually see the nutation(?) due to assymetric torques on the landing frame as the prop rotates
[15:59] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:59] <Laurenceb> hmm
[15:59] <Laurenceb> i see they have normal prop on the bottom
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> I make it a degree a rev easily
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> So each 'sinusoidal impulse' will give you half a rev
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> half a degree
[16:01] <SpeedEvil> Oh - I missed that it was normal
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[16:27] <Laurenceb> black sticker on the side of the motor and optical tacho is prob best
[16:32] <SpeedEvil> Sure - for one off
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[16:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03G6MDG_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=G6MDG_chase
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[17:49] <Lunar_Lander> evening
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[17:54] <HF_ATL_> hi there Lunar_Lander
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[18:36] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03SP5NVX after 033 days silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=SP5NVX
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[19:31] <paul_HAB-P> so playing with the funcube pro + in GQRX, why does the centre frequency always have a huge signal on it no matter where the tuning is set in gqrx?
[19:31] <paul_HAB-P> (sorry for repeating gqrx)...
[19:31] <Upu> http://www.reddit.com/r/RTLSDR/comments/1rbbn0/strange_constant_signal_in_sdr_no_matter_what/
[19:31] <paul_HAB-P> TY lol
[19:33] <paul_HAB-P> well that helps with that :)
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[19:43] <jpx> hi
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[19:44] <jpx> does somebody have notice some fix problem with the m8q board ?
[19:46] <jpx> on the uBLOX MAX-M8Q Breakout With Quad-V Antenna
[19:46] <Upu> hi jpx
[19:47] <Upu> Did you just mail me ?
[19:47] <Upu> I think you did
[19:48] <Upu> I'll respond in an e-mail shortly
[19:51] <Upu> I sent you a mail jpx
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[20:46] <jpx> yes I am ;-)
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[20:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PYSY - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=PYSY
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[21:25] <boelle_dk> Hi, do i assume right that the tracker has been changed? ev erytime i visit space near us i'm forwarded to the mobile tracker
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[21:25] <edmoore> boelle_dk, correct
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[21:25] <edmoore> the 'mobile' tracker is now 'the tracker'
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[21:28] <boelle_dk> :-/ liked the old one better but what the heck....
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[21:33] <mfa298> the old one was generally broken and slow since google changed the gmaps api
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[21:33] <mfa298> the new one should have the same features now and is faster
[21:38] <Lunar_Lander> I like the feature of the new tracker to show flight data as graphs
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[22:02] Nick change: stilldavid_ -> stilldavid
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[23:13] <Laurenceb_> qinetiq are so full of BS
[23:13] <Laurenceb_> should be called infinite outsource
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[00:00] --- Wed Dec 17 2014