highaltitude.log.20141212

[00:12] <Laurenceb__> http://scottbarrykaufman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/trolls-just-want-to-have-fun.pdf
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[00:32] <SpeedEvil> http://www.theverge.com/2014/12/11/7378035/peru-criminal-charges-greenpeace-nazca-heritage-damage
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[05:06] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03AETH28-10 after 0319 days silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=AETH28-10
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[05:19] <qyx_> wut
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[05:55] <Reb-SM0ULC> morrn
[05:55] <lz1dev> !aprs info sm0ulc
[05:55] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: No matches found
[05:55] <lz1dev> :(
[05:56] <lz1dev> !aprs info sm0ulc*
[05:56] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: No matches found
[05:56] <lz1dev> where is moring at this hour :/
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[09:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03car_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=car_chase
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[10:30] <Laurenceb_> AETH solved their battery issues?
[10:30] <Laurenceb_> or is it a new launch?
[10:31] <Laurenceb_> ooh
[10:31] <Laurenceb_> looks like a circumnavigation or two
[10:31] <Laurenceb_> "pico"ballooning is coming on fast
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[10:36] <henryplumb> Morning
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[10:39] <Maxell> Laurenceb_: AETH isn't like picoamericur ?
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[10:40] <Laurenceb_> lol
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[11:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK5EI-11 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=VK5EI-11
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[12:02] <Laurenceb_> http://nodemcu.com/index_en.html
[12:04] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fabric_of_Reality#The_Church.E2.80.93Turing_thesis
[12:04] <Laurenceb_> what is this guy smoking...
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[12:36] <paul_HABnoob> What would people recommend as an entry level USB receiver for SDR? Looked at funcube dongle pro but the reviews don't seem that positive...
[12:38] <paul_HABnoob> want one that is compatible with dl-fldigi on linux
[12:38] <gonzo_> the pro+ version is pretty good
[12:38] <paul_HABnoob> ok cool. just looked like lots of bitching in their reviews...
[12:39] <gonzo_> you have to run all sdrs through some dort of demod program first
[12:39] <paul_HABnoob> like fldigi...
[12:40] <gonzo_> the original pro version was just a raw tv rx front end chip up front, so overloading and desense was a problem (but fixed with a filtered LNA, like the habamp)
[12:40] <gonzo_> the output from SRDs will be two channels of data, called IQ
[12:41] <gonzo_> you need to put that through an srd prohram (I use spectravue) to metematically crunch the data to give you the equiv of a speaker o/p
[12:41] <gonzo_> mathematically
[12:42] <gonzo_> you can then feed that into a data decoder program like fl-digi
[12:43] <paul_HABnoob> ok - hang on then. if i use the 2832u dongle, that'll just plug straight into fl-digi without having to have an extra demod?
[12:43] <gonzo_> if you can find a cheap FCD pro, then with a hab-amp it shopuld be quite useable
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[12:43] <gonzo_> or get the newer FCD pro+, which has lna and filters built in
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[12:44] <gonzo_> not sure what the 2832 is
[12:44] <gonzo_> fldigi and similar progs are designed to be fed from the speaker output from a radio
[12:45] <paul_HABnoob> RTL-2832U chipset used in lots of DVB-T usb sticks. the wiki on getting started recommends using one...
[12:45] <gonzo_> an sdr will not give this. It relies on software to take the IQ output that the SDR produces to give an audio uotput
[12:46] <gonzo_> OK, I've not vread the wiki in a while.
[12:46] <gonzo_> I recon that any SDR will need some sort of sw to generate the audio output
[12:46] <paul_HABnoob> (I'm also probably complicating the issue here as well as trying to learn right now)...
[12:47] <gonzo_> others on this chan may be able to recommend something for lunix
[12:47] <gonzo_> linux
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[12:48] <paul_HABnoob> cool thanks...
[12:49] <db_g6gzh> paul_HABnoob: you'll need something like gqrx on linux to use an RTL 2832 based SDR
[12:49] <db_g6gzh> then take the audio from that into dl-fldigi
[12:50] <paul_HABnoob> ah - right got it! I am guessing this can be done in software...
[12:51] <db_g6gzh> and if using pulseaudio to route the audio make sure it's a recent version as there was a resampling bug
[12:51] <paul_HABnoob> got it!
[12:52] <paul_HABnoob> so I could get a funcube pro+ dongle and route it through gqrx and into fldigi...
[12:52] <db_g6gzh> yes
[12:52] <paul_HABnoob> Now that sounds fun. shopping time!
[12:53] <db_g6gzh> just be aware of the pulseaudio issue - it doesn't noticeably affect speech so isn't an obvious bug but messes up RTTY
[12:54] <paul_HABnoob> yeah just found the post setting it to 48000
[12:54] <paul_HABnoob> thanks for that!
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> I find the best thing to do for pulseaudio problems is to travel back through time, and kill Lennart Poettering.
[12:59] <db_g6gzh> 8-) a bit harsh but would solve many things
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[14:03] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KJ4ZVJ - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=KJ4ZVJ
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[15:44] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KM4EFW-11 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=KM4EFW-11
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30454240
[15:44] <SpeedEvil> derp
[15:45] <SpeedEvil> London airspace closed after computer failure
[15:52] <cm13g09> SpeedEvil: OOPS!
[15:54] <SpeedEvil> Perfect time for a launch!
[15:54] <SpeedEvil> (not really)
[15:54] <mattbrejza> gotta wait for everything to land first
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[16:04] <cm13g09> mattbrejza: I get the feeling NATS are trying to do that as well....
[16:04] <cm13g09> wait for everything to get down on tarmac
[16:09] <cm13g09> although whether there's *space* to do that.....
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[16:10] <mattbrejza> there is still plenty of stuff due to land, but some of it is doing little loops
[16:12] <cm13g09> mattbrejza: yeah
[16:12] <cm13g09> something tells me Southampton's gonna be up the spout as well tonight
[16:12] <cm13g09> = late night for me
[16:12] <cm13g09> yay for living on the flight path......
[16:13] <mattbrejza> ? :/
[16:13] <cm13g09> well, most of the flights into Soton go through London airspace....
[16:13] <mattbrejza> how does that affect you?
[16:13] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Rumor has it that the problem of RADAR display at Swanick (NATS) now reolved ....
[16:14] <Geoff-G8DHE_> resolved
[16:14] <mattbrejza> theyre now using flightradar24
[16:15] <Geoff-G8DHE_> probably!
[16:17] <cm13g09> mattbrejza: I'm about 1km off the end of Southampton's runway
[16:17] <cm13g09> the planes are, what, 200m up when they pass my flat
[16:18] <cm13g09> mattbrejza: yeah.....
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[16:18] <cm13g09> worrying how good that site is
[16:18] <mattbrejza> so will they run later, or just cancel though?
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[16:19] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Gatwicj flights now departing
[16:20] <mattbrejza> flightrdar has a minute delay or so
[16:20] <mattbrejza> nax2806 is going down the runway...
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[16:22] <cm13g09> mattbrejza: normally Southampton ends up picking up some of the pieces on the smaller LHR flights
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[16:22] <cm13g09> which will in turn, lead to other flights being delayed....
[16:22] <cm13g09> which in turn means that last flight in will be maybe midnight tonight
[16:22] <cm13g09> vs 2135 normallly
[16:22] <mattbrejza> hmm
[16:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03NM5SS-10 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=NM5SS-10
[16:23] <mattbrejza> i cant say the planes were that loud when i was at wessex lane, i guess youre closer
[16:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03NM5SS-11 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=NM5SS-11
[16:27] <cm13g09> mattbrejza: I am closer to the flight path.... yes
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[16:52] Nick change: pd3t_ -> pd3t
[16:53] Nick change: pd3t -> pb1dft
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[16:53] Nick change: pb1dft -> pd3t
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[17:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AIRCOR-1 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=AIRCOR-1
[17:09] <lz1dev> NOAA aircore ^
[17:12] <edmoore> paper: http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/2010JTECHA1448.1
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[17:13] <stilldavid> I should go out and look at it!
[17:13] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:13] <edmoore> shoot it down
[17:14] <edmoore> sparkfun presumably has a big laser
[17:14] <stilldavid> it's seriously gonig to go right overhead
[17:14] <stilldavid> www.stilldavid.com/stuff/skitch//habhub_tracker_2014-12-12_10-14-16.png
[17:14] <stilldavid> wish I had my radio today :(
[17:15] <edmoore> i take that as no laser then
[17:16] <stilldavid> well... that's not _entirely_ accurate
[17:17] <edmoore> plausible deniability
[17:19] <lz1dev> stilldavid: what do you use to capture images? some evernote addon?
[17:20] <stilldavid> I have been using monosnap since skitch went weird
[17:20] <stilldavid> it's pretty fully featured
[17:21] <lz1dev> thanks, ill give it a go
[17:22] <lz1dev> looks great, upload via SFTP
[17:23] <stilldavid> yup :)
[17:24] <lz1dev> how can desktop recording be so smooth
[17:25] <stilldavid> magic.gif
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[17:36] <edmoore> RS are such useless bastards
[17:36] <edmoore> they're inumerate arseholes who can;t design a webpage to save their lives
[17:37] <edmoore> look at this bullshit
[17:37] <edmoore> https://www.dropbox.com/s/md7ufwrrzdjizzs/Screenshot%202014-12-12%2017.36.20.png?dl=0
[17:37] <edmoore> what the f*ck kind of ordering is that
[17:37] <amell> load of wank ordering obviously.
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[17:40] <arko> wat
[17:44] <stilldavid> see also: http://php.net/manual/en/array.sorting.php
[17:51] <edmoore> stilldavid, one year ago i sent some code to our RS rep having explained the problem to him
[17:52] <edmoore> i wrote him a little python function that could sort units of force/weight
[17:52] <edmoore> https://www.dropbox.com/s/5ec348cygbbilxx/Screenshot%20from%202013-12-10%2012%3A16%3A38.png?dl=0
[17:52] <edmoore> he got me to talk to their web team to explain the problem with their website
[17:52] <edmoore> nothing done about it
[17:54] <Lunar_Lander> :(
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[17:59] <lz1dev> heh, two years ago i made a fix for boiler plate CSS, got a response yesterday
[17:59] <lz1dev> https://github.com/dhg/Skeleton/pull/119
[18:01] <stilldavid> at least he was sorry?
[18:02] <lz1dev> makes me question if i should ever botter contributing to open source
[18:02] <lz1dev> bother*
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[18:10] <BrainDamage> are you generalizing over an entire community because of the experience with a single dev/project?
[18:11] <lz1dev> not really, it's pretty much depending the project
[18:11] <BrainDamage> exactly
[18:11] <lz1dev> but i also have more examples of late reponses
[18:11] <lz1dev> or none at all
[18:12] <lz1dev> i supose is my time dedicateding time to a dead project
[18:12] <lz1dev> my fault*
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[18:21] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03car_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=car_chase
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[18:22] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M0RPI-11 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=M0RPI-11
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[18:53] <lz1dev> !aprs info m0rpi-11
[18:53] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: 03M0RPI-11 is near 03Herefordshire, UK 10(51.95031,-2.54438) at 03147 meters - 12http://aprs.fi/info/M0RPI-11
[18:53] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Path: 03M0RPI-11>APRS via 03WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,qAR,M0RPI-1
[18:53] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Symbol: 03O/
[18:53] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Comment: 03|!"| /M0RPI,78'C,http://www.daveakerman.com
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[18:54] <lz1dev> daveake: :)
[18:55] <daveake> yeah testing our Pi APRS tracker
[18:55] <daveake> Can't fly it here obv
[18:56] <mcbcurator> super excited about the Pi APRS tracker.
[18:56] <lz1dev> daveake: your b91 telemetry is too short :)
[18:56] <daveake> It's code borrowed/stolen from Habduino ... I'll take a look to see what I broke :)
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[19:04] <fsphil> uh-oh, was it mine?
[19:05] <daveake> Just the packet-builder bit
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[19:16] <mcbcurator> Is there historical HAB flight prediction available to check different launch sites for seasonal patterns?
[19:17] <Upu> not really the dataset is 27Gb every 6 hours
[19:18] <fsphil> there are some general patterns. things in winter tend to land in the sea, summers are usualy better
[19:18] <fsphil> but not always
[19:18] <mcbcurator> Wow, didn't realize the dataset was so large
[19:21] <lz1dev> you just stumbled into a deep sea of data
[19:21] <mcbcurator> here in south texas we're under the subtropical jet much of the time
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[20:11] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening all
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[20:27] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening :-)
[20:27] <SP9UOB-Tom> What happened to old tracker interface ?
[20:28] <fsphil> howdy
[20:28] <fsphil> it got retired
[20:28] <SP9UOB-Tom> fsphil: what a pity :-(
[20:28] <Upu> really ?
[20:29] <SP9UOB-Tom> hi Upu :-) really what ?
[20:29] <Upu> a pity the old tracker was retired :)
[20:29] <Upu> hi Tom
[20:30] <SP9UOB-Tom> Upu: i liked it :-)
[20:30] <Upu> its still there if you know the super sekrit url
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> hello Tom :)
[20:31] <SP9UOB-Tom> hello Lunar_Lander :-)
[20:31] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
[20:32] <SP9UOB-Tom> im planning o launch directly into Alexandra ;-)
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[20:58] <mfa298> lz1dev: seeing the rant ealier, there do seem to be a lot of open source projects that started, looked promising then have just been abandoned.
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[21:03] <lz1dev> it's more like, they get to some point, and the author disappears for whatever reason
[21:04] <lz1dev> therefore any maintaing is impossible, and you have to fork
[21:05] <lz1dev> but then everybody forks
[21:06] <mfa298> the point they usually seem to get to is almost working, or working for an obsolete version of the language (in the case of libraries)
[21:07] <lz1dev> and you have small changes in my repos, and what do you
[21:07] <lz1dev> my repos = many repos
[21:07] <mcbcurator> Or they keep adding tons of features without ensuring that the current features actually work.
[21:09] <lz1dev> we are going on a tangent here
[21:09] <lz1dev> but the point is, it would be nice if somebody is there to maintain it
[21:09] <lz1dev> especially if the thing has developed a tiny following
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[21:12] <mfa298> Having had to start using ruby (it what every one at work uses) there seem to be a load of popular libraries that are effectively dead.
[21:12] <mfa298> and also have really poor documentation (the other thing that OS seems to fail at)
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[21:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03KC9QCD-10 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=KC9QCD-10
[21:15] <lz1dev> well at least they OS, you can pick them up :P
[21:17] <mfa298> annoyingly one I'm using has part of it provided as a pre-compiled library (for RPI gpio support) but no obvious sources for it :(
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[21:18] <mfa298> I may end up asking if it's availalbe (or whether it's been taken from elsewhere as I suspect)
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[21:21] <HF_ATL> hello all
[21:21] <Upu> evening
[21:21] <Upu> oops
[21:21] <Upu> evening
[21:22] <ulfr> Can you do that again in italic?
[21:23] <HF_ATL> what is the consensus about the best balloons brand to buy? totex?
[21:23] <Upu> seems so
[21:23] <edmoore> they're fine but not so available now - most use howyee
[21:23] <lz1dev> %Ilol
[21:23] <edmoore> the actual spelling of hoywee is a mater fo some debate
[21:23] <edmoore> inside my head anyway
[21:23] <Upu> No totex ?
[21:23] <edmoore> also the pronunciation
[21:23] <Upu> Totex are generally more reliable
[21:23] <Upu> burst when they say they will
[21:24] <Upu> Hwoyee are a bit random some times
[21:24] <lz1dev> asd
[21:24] <lz1dev> inv
[21:24] <edmoore> you'll find the whoyee cheaper and more prevelent probably
[21:24] <edmoore> especially in the uk
[21:24] <Upu> yep
[21:24] <Upu> www.randomengineering.co.uk
[21:25] <Upu> you're not from the UK though are you ?
[21:25] Action: mikestir wonders how many iterations it will take for it to become "wooyay"
[21:25] <Upu> I think I prefer wooyay
[21:25] <Upu> my balloon popped at 44km "Wooyay!"
[21:26] <mcbcurator> What's the feeling on Kaymont?
[21:26] <edmoore> ridged for extra pleasure
[21:26] <edmoore> i mean extra altitude
[21:26] <edmoore> they're all fine, just get one that is sized appropriate for the altitude/mass combo you want
[21:27] <Upu> also good robust burst when they are meant too
[21:27] <Upu> as long as you fill them to spec
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[21:29] Action: mikestir wonders if that's still a condom gag
[21:31] <edmoore> i don't know what to believe anymore
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[21:31] <HF_ATL> sorry I had to get out for a minute
[21:31] <HF_ATL> nop, I'm from Portugal
[21:32] <HF_ATL> I see that there is a significative price difference between the totex and hoywee
[21:32] <HF_ATL> seems like opinions diverge a bit
[21:33] <Upu> well
[21:33] <Upu> if you want it to burst when it should do and be reliable Totex or Kaymont
[21:33] <Upu> if you like random
[21:33] <Upu> Hwoyee
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[21:33] <Upu> I only fly Hwoyee*
[21:33] <Upu> *Daves Hwoyees
[21:34] <HF_ATL> and if I choose the next hwoyee model should I expect the same diameter burst as the totex previous?
[21:34] <Upu> no like I said
[21:34] <Upu> they can be random
[21:34] <HF_ATL> even the larger ones?
[21:34] <Upu> like bursting way over what they are meant too
[21:34] <daveake> Hwoyee tend to go higher
[21:34] <Upu> very the larger ones
[21:35] <daveake> but sometimes don't
[21:35] <Upu> yeah conversely they can burst low too
[21:35] <Upu> http://habhub.org/calc/
[21:35] <mikestir> sometimes they come back in one piece
[21:35] <Upu> yeah they like to tear rather than burst
[21:36] <daveake> I've had that with wooyee and totex
[21:36] <Upu> but again all the altitude records have been set by Hwoyee
[21:36] <daveake> approx 2/3rds comes back down
[21:36] <daveake> well obviously it all comes back down but only some with the payload :)
[21:37] <edmoore> yohow's have larger necks too
[21:38] <HF_ATL> there are more detailed spec of the wooyee somewhere? website only show the burst diamter although it is a very important and needed info to calculate burst altitude
[21:38] <Upu> http://habhub.org/calc/
[21:39] <Upu> burst diameter as follows
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[21:39] <Upu> 1600g Hwoyee 27km -> 45km
[21:39] <Upu> 1000g Hwoyee 25km -> 41km
[21:39] <Upu> err altitude
[21:39] <daveake> hah
[21:39] <HF_ATL> well but if there is QA issues with them the calculator does not help much
[21:40] <daveake> depends how much you care how high it gets
[21:40] <HF_ATL> i would be very happy reaching the 30km mark but obiously the more the better
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> btw why does the calculator deviate from the input?
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> if I enter 3 m/s for example it gives me a solution for a different ascent rate
[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> 3.4 m/s or something
[21:43] <HF_ATL> i believe that is due to the fact that you enter the initial desired ascent rate but as you know the ascent rase increases with the height thus the medium ascent rate will be higher than the input
[21:43] <edmoore> surprised if it's that much
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[21:43] <HF_ATL> i've developed a matlab program and derived the equations and realized that
[21:44] <HF_ATL> but i don't know the coding behind the calculator
[21:44] <Upu> well the burst calc is open source
[21:44] <Upu> also
[21:44] <Upu> http://www.randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> ah ok, thanks
[21:45] <Upu> scroll down there is Steves on there
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[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> the excel one?
[21:45] <HF_ATL> I'd like to the developer improve it and use the Cd with variation with the reynolds
[21:45] <HF_ATL> it is not a constant
[21:46] <edmoore> we know about this but it's not really a huge deal compared to all the other sources of noise
[21:46] <edmoore> a constant ascent rate is a basically reasonable assumption, for simplicity
[21:46] <Upu> yeah honestly you could spend hours pouring over this
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> true
[21:47] <Upu> and on the day wind could mess your weight calcs up and all your maths will make no difference
[21:47] <mcbcurator> I have to imagine the variation in a fill will overwhelm any of the other sources of noise
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> I once calculated the ascent rate of a balloon in 1000 m levels to 34 km
[21:47] <Upu> just don't underfil
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> I equated friction to buoyancy for that
[21:47] <edmoore> mcbcurator, indeed
[21:47] <edmoore> and forecast accuracy
[21:47] <Upu> as that can under certain circumstances lead to a float
[21:47] <HF_ATL> well it can be for larger balloons but for smaller ones the reynold number goes to the drag crisis zone and the Cd increase very much below that
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> and I think you become a bit faster towards the top
[21:47] <daveake> esp with h2
[21:47] <Upu> HF_ATL just fill it up
[21:47] <edmoore> HF_ATL, not that much
[21:48] <Upu> then put some more ahem "Stirks" in
[21:48] <Upu> !wiki Stirks
[21:48] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: No results for your query
[21:48] <Upu> !wiki Stirk
[21:48] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: No results for your query
[21:48] <Upu> good
[21:48] <daveake> hah
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> what about a HAB unit page?
[21:48] <daveake> It's a unit of gas
[21:48] <daveake> volume
[21:48] <edmoore> i've modelled this before from flight data and the Cd kinked about where you expect 10^5-10^6 or whatever it is
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> didn't we have also Lunars and Akermans and so on?
[21:48] <edmoore> but it wasn;t by a huge amount
[21:48] <daveake> The "Lunar Cycle"
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:48] <daveake> appears to be > 2 years :p
[21:48] <Upu> :)
[21:48] <mikestir> a unit of gas equal to "put the lot in"?
[21:48] <HF_ATL> around the 3*10^5
[21:49] <edmoore> sure, wherever
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[21:49] <Upu> Ed's Rule
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> well
[21:49] <HF_ATL> Cd go abruptly from 0.2 to 0.45
[21:49] <Upu> If you'd be unwilling to throw your payload down the stairs, it might be unwise to fly it.
[21:49] <edmoore> the balloons aren;t exactly spherical
[21:49] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:glossary?s[]=stirk
[21:49] <Lunar_Lander> hadn't I become ill for the last november week, we probably would have flown before christmas
[21:49] <HF_ATL> but of course it is not a issue for big balloons
[21:49] <qyx_> nanana, connector for balloon tracker arrived http://i.imgur.com/3U4foz3.jpg
[21:49] <qyx_> also the lighntning protector
[21:49] <qyx_> -t
[21:49] <edmoore> it's not a huge issue for balloons at our scale
[21:50] <edmoore> you won;t observe a change in Cd of that magnitude
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> that is a flaw in our team btw
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> when I am absent, the rest of us isn't very productive
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> we have to find a way to change that
[21:50] <HF_ATL> well I just simulated a kci-600 some days ago and had that issue
[21:50] <arko> "how is Arduino?"
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> for example, the lab door is locked when I am home
[21:50] <arko> lol
[21:50] <edmoore> HF_ATL, yes
[21:50] <edmoore> i'm sure
[21:50] <mcbcurator> I guess if you wanted to get fancy and expensive with your fills you could use a helium mass flow controller.
[21:51] <edmoore> but that means your simulation is probably wrong
[21:51] <arko> lol im so going to use the term 'stirk'
[21:51] <edmoore> unless you have real data to verify your model, please stop claiming your model is correct
[21:51] <edmoore> that's not science
[21:52] <HF_ATL> I can show you the equations I used, it's a rather complicated formula but fit perfectly the cd curve
[21:52] <edmoore> all you need to do is to tell me if you've compared your model output with real flight data
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[21:52] <edmoore> i don't need to see your equations
[21:52] <HF_ATL> i'm not saying my model is correct, I just said that it will be a good improvement if the calculator havea Cd variation with reynolds
[21:53] <edmoore> sure, and i'm saying no it won't be a good improvement
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[21:53] <edmoore> and i'm saying that having compared a model that accounts for it with lots of flight data
[21:53] Nick change: nigelvh_ -> nigelvh
[21:53] <HF_ATL> in that way considering the actual temperatures in the atmosphere for the launch point will also have no effect in the burst altitude
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[21:54] <HF_ATL> makes no sense saying that
[21:54] <HF_ATL> it is always better to have a more realistic model
[21:55] <edmoore> ok here's your realistic model
[21:55] <edmoore> include all your effects
[21:55] <mcbcurator> But the point is that you can't verify if it truly is more realistic unless it's backed up by empirical data.
[21:55] <kc2pit> edmoore: The model is perfect. Discrepancies are reality's problem.
[21:55] <HF_ATL> if you say that the gravity acc does not vary much with height until 30km yeah I agree it will make almost no difference but some parameters will make
[21:55] <edmoore> then multiply the burst altitude it calculates by a number drawn from ~N(1,0.2)
[21:55] <edmoore> to account for manufacturing tolerances
[21:56] <edmoore> and i suspect that will swamp your 2nd-order effects
[21:56] <HF_ATL> those values nobody can predict of course and can play an important role but the parameters you can model with known and proven equations are worthwile considering
[21:58] <edmoore> if you want to
[21:58] <edmoore> i disagree
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[21:59] <mcbcurator> When I was in archaeology grad school, I got way into submillimeter measuring of meter-scale objects. My advisor pulled me aside one day and said "Consider a set of cutlery laid out for dinner. Now move the fork 0.02 mm left. What does that change in your interpretation?" I abandoned my submillimeter modeling.
[21:59] <edmoore> yes
[22:00] <edmoore> i understand non-ideal modelling of gasses but i also understand when i'd be wasting my time doing so
[22:00] <edmoore> and also when it's worth modelling real gases
[22:00] <edmoore> most of the problem of engineering is knowing when an answer is good enough and when you should do more analysis
[22:01] <HF_ATL> what I said does not influce the values in that order of magnitude of course, if it was the case then no sense and speaking about them
[22:02] <HF_ATL> of course that ideal gas law is also an approximation and so on, I agree
[22:02] <mcbcurator> HF_ATL, you could probably win a balloon challenge science award for a series of flights showing a statistically significant improvement in burst modelling.
[22:03] <Upu> but you won't as balloons we use aren't that consistant
[22:03] <astrobiologist> Hello, I am trying to APRS via the International Space Station. Can anybody advise me on this?
[22:03] <edmoore> i advise going to #hamradio
[22:03] <Upu> Evening Oliver
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[22:03] <edmoore> HF_ATL, for example, do you model the shape of the ballon changing as the skin tension changes throughout the flight?
[22:04] <HF_ATL> mcbcurator, I'm not interested in that at all. My aim is to acquire more knowledge with better feeling for the influence of various parameters on a particular flight/test
[22:04] <edmoore> i've no problem with performing a sensitivity analysis for a bunch of parameters
[22:04] <mcbcurator> And what I was trying to gently point out (along with others in here) is that you acquire more knowledge via testing your model against reality. That's science. Tested predictions.
[22:05] <edmoore> but so far the conclusions you've drawn from them seem to be misguided or incomplete
[22:06] <astrobiologist> Evening all. Before I head off, could anybody have a look at this for me: 20141212210512 : EI6IL]APRS,RS0ISS*,qAR,PA3DFN::BLNQSL1/1:IS0EBO-4,IZ1BOH,2E0LVR,F5SN,HG8GL-4{UISS52}
[22:06] <HF_ATL> I can't afford doing many balloon flights and moreover here there are no people doing that nearby
[22:06] <edmoore> just do one. model the flight then instrument the balloon
[22:07] <edmoore> measure absolute pressures, delta-p and delta-t inside-vs-outside the balloon
[22:07] <edmoore> measure vertical rates
[22:07] <edmoore> see if the model is right
[22:07] <astrobiologist> This is in the feed from the ISS on ariss.net but it doesn't look like an APRS string to me. Is it a normal packet instead? Did they hear me or is it somebody digipeating me?
[22:07] <edmoore> that's a useful exercise
[22:07] <HF_ATL> yes and that is in my plans
[22:07] <adamgreig> HF_ATL: hi i wrote the current calculator on the predictor and habhub
[22:08] <adamgreig> i have checked against hundreds of flights
[22:08] <adamgreig> the ascent rate is constant to a "good enough" approximation
[22:08] <HF_ATL> i'm doing it for personal use only, not for sell anyhting,just acquiring knowledge and develop my programming skills at the same time
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> Balloon materials also vary notabl
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> y
[22:08] <adamgreig> however it's open source so you're very welcome to contribute improvements and we can merge them in
[22:09] <HF_ATL> adamgreig, that is verified also for small balloons?
[22:09] <adamgreig> size of the balloon isn't recorded in the dataset so not explicitly, no
[22:09] <Upu> whats your definition of small ?
[22:10] <adamgreig> i should try checking against steve's load of 100g ones
[22:10] <Upu> those are actually quite consistant
[22:10] <HF_ATL> <400g
[22:10] <adamgreig> i still have some around myself actually
[22:10] <Upu> ok
[22:10] <adamgreig> Upu: very consistent but is the ascent rate very linear?
[22:10] <Upu> not checked
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[22:10] <adamgreig> HF_ATL: no promises about behaviour for the very small balloons you might use for 20g payloads, but no one uses the calculator for them anyway really, different physics
[22:10] <Upu> if I had some gas I'd go let one go for you now and check
[22:11] <adamgreig> i have some gas but it's coooold outside
[22:11] <daveake> ditto
[22:11] <adamgreig> also actually our new permission to launch requires 72 hours notice instead of 24
[22:11] <Upu> you don't have gas daveake ?
[22:11] <adamgreig> so bleh
[22:11] <Darkside> there's no kind of atmosphere?
[22:11] <Upu> this I do not believe
[22:11] <HF_ATL> adamgreig, so you're saying that for instance if the initial ascent rate is 5m/s, at 20km it is still under 6m/s?
[22:11] <daveake> I was dittoing Adam :)
[22:11] <Upu> ah
[22:11] <Upu> lol no problems sorry Capt H2
[22:11] <daveake> :)
[22:12] <daveake> Darkside :)
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[22:12] <adamgreig> HF_ATL: for 'most' balloons (tho probably this dataset overrepresents around 800g-1200g and is less representative of smaller balloons), it's still 5m/s
[22:13] <adamgreig> typically the curve was a bit s-shaped as well
[22:13] <adamgreig> should really write it up properly one day but it was a very boring result
[22:13] <adamgreig> "yes it is linear ok good"
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[22:13] <kc2pit> "6. (Mar's Law) Everything is linear if plotted log-log with a fat magic marker."
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[22:14] <Upu> I like your annotations on the conversation kc2pit :)
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[22:14] <kc2pit> (from http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/akins_laws.html which contains much that is valid beyond its specified field of application)
[22:14] <edmoore> i must post akins laws here about once a month
[22:15] <edmoore> used to anyway
[22:15] <kc2pit> Heh. I might have got it from here, dunno.
[22:15] <kc2pit> They're now posted on the wall of our cubesat lab, though.
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[22:15] <kc2pit> We're starting to just quote them by numerical reference.
[22:15] <edmoore> rule 16 especially true in my field
[22:16] <edmoore> lots of bunkum and confusion in old journal papers
[22:16] <edmoore> 16+17 kinda the same
[22:17] <edmoore> also 30 is absurdly true
[22:23] <mikestir> I like 35. one for the arduino guys
[22:26] <astrobiologist> How can I "voice" my username? #hamradio requires it but I don't know the relevant IRC command. Thanks
[22:26] <SpeedEvil> you may mean how do I register.
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> https://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml
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[22:29] <Laurenceb__> holy scrollback
[22:29] <lz1dev> /clear
[22:29] <lz1dev> :)
[22:29] <Laurenceb__> this sounds kind of interesting
[22:30] <astrobiologist> SpeedEvil I am sorry, I am none the wiser after skimming that page. What / command do I need to register please?
[22:31] <SpeedEvil> https://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
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[22:46] Nick change: day- -> day
[22:46] <astrobiologist> Thanks SpeedEvil! Nb how are you at deciphering raw packets?.....
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> not
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> never done it
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[22:51] <astrobiologist> thanks anyway, I'll mosey on to #hamradio now that I have registered!
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[23:28] <amell_> !ping b-64
[23:28] <SpacenearUS> 03amell_: Last contact with 03B-64 was 0319 days ago
[23:28] <amell_> what happened to him
[23:29] <murb> he was one with B-64
[23:30] <Upu> he's taken a sabbatical to actually get some real work done
[23:30] <amell_> ok. thats a good plan :) hope he comes back with a new B at some point.
[23:33] <murb> Upu: real work?!
[23:33] <Upu> yeah he has a job :)
[23:33] <murb> yeah the B series :)
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[23:35] <arko> some say leo is somewhere in northern greenland still chasing B-64 till this day
[23:36] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[23:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03G-07 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=G-07
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[00:00] --- Sat Dec 13 2014