highaltitude.log.20141206

[00:00] <mattbrejza> i ignore keepout usually
[00:00] <mikestir> I hand solder the passives by applying a small amount of solder to one pad and tagging the component down, then soldering the free end as normal and re-flowing the first joint if necessary
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[00:01] <mattbrejza> the other board i have on my desk is a ST dev baord, it looks like that uses the same size pads as eagle
[00:01] <mikestir> ignoring the keepout is ok but it's nice to pass the drc without having to ack everything
[00:02] <mattbrejza> i just turn off keepout ;)
[00:02] <mattbrejza> should probably fix the footprint and use it for what its designed for
[00:02] <mikestir> I've got an stm32f4 disco board here - they do have a large silk screen around all the resistors but the pads don't look particularly oversized
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[00:05] <mattbrejza> do the parts in eagle have large pads or just keepout
[00:05] <mattbrejza> ?
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[00:05] <mikestir> can't remember. I think the issue was mainly the keepout
[00:06] <mattbrejza> ok
[00:06] <mikestir> the pads were larger than the IPC "nominal" profile, but I never checked them against "most"
[00:06] <mikestir> like nats` was saying, you can fit an 0805 on the 0603 pads
[00:07] <mattbrejza> i have found that after cockups
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[00:11] <mattbrejza> just had a play with that program http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/234/765/b7e.jpg
[00:11] <mattbrejza> i think its one for the morning
[00:12] <mikestir> yeah it's not very intuitive
[00:12] <mattbrejza> you have to enter the typical dimensions for a say 0603 and then it tells you the footprint
[00:12] <mattbrejza> i wanted to click on '0603'
[00:13] <mikestir> click on library->search
[00:13] <mikestir> then pick the ...SMN7351 library, which is surface mount nominal profile
[00:14] <mikestir> then you can use find and tick use wildcards or regex or whatever
[00:14] <mattbrejza> ah right
[00:15] <mattbrejza> cool thanks
[00:15] <mikestir> you can also figure out the name remember that it's in metric, so 0603 is 1608. tick use wildcards and search for RESC1608* and then click "list all"
[00:15] <mikestir> then you find the one that's the right height and click view
[00:16] <mikestir> and I think you can actually tweak the dimensions in there if it's not quite what you need
[00:17] <mattbrejza> do smd caps and resistors have the same footprint?
[00:17] <mattbrejza> both 0603
[00:17] <mikestir> pretty much. as my boss is always telling me, though, the height is actually component especially for pick and place
[00:18] <mikestir> if the pad is too large for a very low profile part the solder fillet can end up too big and bad stuff happens
[00:18] <mattbrejza> and 'courtyard' is 'keepout'?
[00:18] <mattbrejza> hmm
[00:18] <mikestir> in general if the parts are the same size and roughly the same height then the footprint will be the same
[00:18] <mikestir> yes courtyard is keepout
[00:18] <mattbrejza> caps are generally double the height of resistors though
[00:19] <mikestir> for that nonsense sentence above s/component/important/
[00:19] <mattbrejza> i assumed thats what you ment :P
[00:20] <mikestir> yeah. it's late
[00:21] <mattbrejza> i might spend tomorrow redoing all my eagle footprints if i get fed up with these lora modules
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[00:21] <mikestir> I suspect I will spend tomorrow entertaining the kids while my wife spends the day nursing a post christmas party hangover
[00:22] <mattbrejza> :P
[00:22] <mikestir> stlil, my turn next weekend
[00:22] <mikestir> ha - that one I can blame on my wireless keyboard
[00:30] <mattbrejza> and there are also three different settings for the size of pads/keepout/etc
[00:30] <mattbrejza> nominal is probably fine...
[00:31] <mikestir> I think you'd usually start with nominal then go to least if you are really pushed for space and you are going to pick and place
[00:32] <mikestir> I guess you might find some assembly houses might ask for most to improve yield
[00:32] <nats`> nobody have the full spec of camera link crap ?
[00:32] <mikestir> ?
[00:32] <mikestir> mipi?
[00:32] <nats`> nop Camera Link
[00:32] <mikestir> oh is that yet another one?
[00:32] <nats`> this multi lvds lane used in scientific camera
[00:33] <nats`> it's pretty old
[00:33] <nats`> used with NI camera mainly
[00:33] <nats`> and adapter are really expensive
[00:33] <mikestir> sounds like it might be similar to flatlink
[00:34] <mikestir> that's multi lane lvds
[00:34] <nats`> yep that part is "easy"
[00:34] <nats`> but I wanted to have a full spec of frame control etc
[00:34] <mattbrejza> i ignore this all the time too: http://i.imgur.com/nJPsqwz.png partly blame eagle
[00:34] <mikestir> dunno. do they put that over the lvds as well?
[00:34] <nats`> those rules are less true mattbrejza
[00:34] <nats`> factory can now make "crazy" things
[00:35] <mattbrejza> oh good
[00:35] <nats`> I don't know mikestir I guess yes
[00:35] <nats`> seems they send 28 bit data
[00:35] <nats`> 4 are not image
[00:35] <nats`> mattbrejza today I would say put the via in the pad
[00:35] <mikestir> well normally you'd have video + vsync, hsync, pclk and dvalid
[00:36] <nats`> if the pad is big enough and if you block the via opening
[00:36] <mattbrejza> perhaps not the vias that you get from seeed/itead etc
[00:36] <mikestir> all that costs more though nats`
[00:36] <mikestir> even just capping vias
[00:37] <mikestir> if you're doing a cheap four or even two layer you can get good deals by getting the cem to have the cleaner throw it through at the end of the day
[00:37] <nats`> mikestir not regular via
[00:38] <nats`> via in pad are expensive for bga and those kind of stuff
[00:38] <nats`> but in 0805 pad it doesn't make any difference than a via in a copper pour
[00:38] <nats`> mattbrejza I do it often for big pad at seeedstudio
[00:38] <mattbrejza> itll suck away all your solder?
[00:39] <nats`> if you block the other side nop
[00:39] <mattbrejza> oh i see
[00:39] <nats`> with a 0.3 drill you're pretty safge
[00:39] <nats`> for bga it's harder
[00:39] <mattbrejza> i use 15mil (0.38mm) vias for some reason
[00:40] <mattbrejza> worth bearing in mind if needed
[00:40] <mikestir> you still working in mils?
[00:40] <mattbrejza> yea
[00:40] <mikestir> I've gone metric now. only fairly recently though
[00:40] <mattbrejza> mm is annoying, theres a decimal point everywhere ;)
[00:41] <nats`> I only use metric it's at leat a coherent system :p
[00:41] <mikestir> I finally reached a tipping point where I was mainly using QFP and QFN so it didn't make sense to have an imperial grid anymore
[00:41] <nats`> and I talk in "clean" metric
[00:41] <nats`> 0.3/0.6
[00:41] <nats`> :D
[00:41] <nats`> 0.15 for trace thickness
[00:41] <mikestir> mattbrejza: you could always work in microns
[00:42] <mattbrejza> then theres an extra digit ;)
[00:42] <mattbrejza> well 0.5mm is almost 10mil, so a 10mil grid works alright for qfp
[00:42] <nats`> I guess in the end everything will be metric
[00:42] <mattbrejza> providing you route 'out' of a pad
[00:42] <nats`> like mikestir said every package is now aligned on metric
[00:43] <mikestir> although I noticed on the orion telemetry earlier that they were showing altitude in nautical miles
[00:43] <mattbrejza> that made me sad
[00:43] <nats`> in miles ? oO
[00:43] <mattbrejza> and they had to keep saying satute miles to be clear
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[00:43] <nats`> but it's not even a coherent system
[00:46] <mikestir> right I must go to bed. gn
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[00:51] <mattbrejza> night
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[09:17] <Reb-SM0ULC> morrn!
[09:18] <mclane_> hello
[09:18] <Reb-SM0ULC> i remember someone here buying very cheap 70 cm yagis for about 5-8 euro. anyone that might remember where? :)
[09:20] <mclane_> http://www.thiecom.de/aby7lb-70cm-band-richtantenne.html?sid=3ffbe59b4b00eadbe7af8b296efa1e1e
[09:20] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 7 lbs = 3.2 kg
[09:20] <jcoxon> hehe theRealSIbot
[09:20] <mclane_> (sorry only german)
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[09:30] <Reb-SM0ULC> great!
[09:31] <Reb-SM0ULC> mclane_: no problem. ich sprache ein bisschein deutsch
[09:33] <Reb-SM0ULC> mclane_: trying to coach two hab-newbies about what they need for HABing..
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[13:10] <MaXimaN> Morning all
[13:13] <MaXimaN> http://techcrunch.com/2014/12/04/softbank-invests-7m-in-mit-based-clean-tech-startup-altaeros-energies/
[13:25] <SpeedEvil> Boring
[13:26] <MaXimaN> But another use for a lot of helium
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[13:26] Action: SpeedEvil tries to remember the one that someone in here was talking about a couple of years back.
[13:26] <SpeedEvil> Orbiting at >>wind speed
[13:28] Action: Laurenceb has been trying to understand fusion recently
[13:29] <Laurenceb> the general fusion thingy seems pretty sane
[13:29] <SpeedEvil> Any idiot can do fusion with just duct tape
[13:29] <SpeedEvil> It just takes _enough_ duct tape
[13:29] <Laurenceb> lul
[13:29] <MaXimaN> And hot glue
[13:29] <SpeedEvil> (several solar masses)
[13:31] Action: Laurenceb has a simpler design than general fusion
[13:31] <Laurenceb> they are compressing plasma "smokrings" using liquid metal
[13:31] <SpeedEvil> Does it involve eighteen russian shot-putters?
[13:31] <Laurenceb> no lol
[13:31] <Laurenceb> just fire two rings at each other
[13:32] <Laurenceb> the KE provides the fusion energy
[13:32] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[13:32] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_Star
[13:32] <Laurenceb> ^origional idea for that
[13:32] <SpeedEvil> The annoying 'looks plausible on the back of an envelope, now do 3 years of supercomputer runs to prove it'.
[13:33] <Laurenceb> heh
[13:33] <Laurenceb> yup
[13:33] <Laurenceb> well general fusion only looks borderline feasible
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/10/15/us-lockheed-fusion-idUSKCN0I41EM20141015
[13:33] <SpeedEvil> Then you get silly claims
[13:33] <Laurenceb> as shiva star has done similar stuff using shaped charge compression
[13:33] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:34] <Laurenceb> compressed plasma always seems to fail, as inhomogeneities are amplified
[13:34] <Laurenceb> thats the problem with Z pinch
[13:34] Action: MaXimaN nods and pretends to understand
[13:34] <SpeedEvil> We already have working fusion, with net energy gain.
[13:35] <Laurenceb> itd be nice if Lockheed published data
[13:35] <SpeedEvil> It's just people bitch when you design a power station using it
[13:35] <Laurenceb> i guess we can just read the guys PhD thesis
[13:35] <Laurenceb> guy who is running the program
[13:35] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[13:36] <Laurenceb> but im more interested in reading declassified info on the shiva star plasma cannon weapon :P
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:37] <Laurenceb> aiui they got 10^7m/s plasma velocity
[13:37] <Laurenceb> thats more than fast enough for fusion
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[14:28] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[14:29] <Maxell> Hi.
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[15:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PI_SKY_PLUS - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=PI_SKY_PLUS
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[16:05] <qyx_> mhm, anyone using rpi b+ with sdr dongle?
[16:05] <qyx_> is the cpu powerful enough to sample at 2msps with rtl_tcp?
[16:16] <mfa298> qyx_: the usb connection might be more of an issue as it's shared with the ethernet
[16:16] <mfa298> and 2msps leads to a lot of data to transmit
[16:17] <qyx_> 16mbit + overhead should be that much
[16:17] <qyx_> but yes, i didn't notice the shared thing
[16:17] <qyx_> hm, 32mbit actually
[16:17] <qyx_> *shouldn't
[16:17] <mfa298> from memory the ethernet data rate was more like 30mbit/s
[16:18] <qyx_> nah :/
[16:18] <mfa298> I did try it early on but had some issues but that was probably more to do with wifi and possibly older firmware
[16:19] <mfa298> that was probably an original B
[16:20] <qyx_> i will probably try one of those allwinner A20 boards
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[17:12] <mikestir> qyx_: might be interesting to try this when it comes out http://store.imgtec.com/
[17:13] <qyx_> meh, mips
[17:14] <qyx_> hm, i could use mikrotik for this purpose
[17:14] <qyx_> huh, openwrt even has packages for rtl-sdr
[17:14] <qyx_> i thint thats the way to go
[17:15] <mattbrejza> the IO on that boards such a mess
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[18:05] <Laurenceb> holy shit
[18:05] <Laurenceb> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Fugt1aPsVWU/TbQ1X3IGgbI/AAAAAAAALMY/SGl5OshH7Jc/s1600/helion1.png
[18:05] <Laurenceb> thats just what i was thinking of
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[18:12] <Laurenceb> http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/04/helion-energy-nuclear-fusion-by.html
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[18:37] <Munrek> !ping B-64
[18:37] <SpacenearUS> 03Munrek: Last contact with 03B-64 was 0313 days ago
[18:41] <Munrek> mclane_: about the cheap 70cm yagi you mentionned, is it "good enough" for listening to balloons ?
[18:45] <jcoxon> Munrek, lots of people track balloons without yagis so a 70cm yagi will be very good
[18:47] <mclane_> Munrek: yes
[18:48] <mclane_> I also have a magmount for the chase car - also works fine
[18:51] <jcoxon> would anyone be interested in a little pcb for a hellschreiber (or morse) beacon
[18:51] <jcoxon> based on a little lpc810 and ntx2b
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[18:52] <Piet0r> Sure
[18:52] <Piet0r> Is it free? ;)
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[18:52] <jcoxon> hehe, sadly not
[18:53] <jcoxon> more if i was to go ahead and make some to be sold
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[19:08] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFKsk8mPnPQ how to change the colour of ones trousers.
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[19:32] <SaS> Anyone here actually at their keyboard?
[19:33] <mclane_> yes
[19:35] <SaS> I have a HAB idea and wanted to run it by someone who has actually done a launch before.
[19:35] <mclane_> what i syour idea?
[19:36] <SaS> My thought was to make something similar to a blimp/dirigible. Basically an exoskeleton with the ballon inside, to keep it from expanding to the limit so that a long duration flight can be done.
[19:37] <SaS> The exoskeleton would maintain the integrity of the ballon and restrict the overall size and also limit the altitude.
[19:38] <mclane_> sounds complicated
[19:38] <mfa298> there was some talk about doing a netted balloon like that a while ago. But for larger balloons (i.e. latex ones) one of the problems with longer flights is the balloon degrading with UV light
[19:39] <SaS> Well I was also thinking of having a thin plastic around the exoskeleton to keep the ballon from being jostled around inside.
[19:39] <SaS> That would also work towards solving the UV problem you mention.
[19:40] <SaS> I'm in Hawaii, trying to fly a ballon to the continental US for fun.
[19:40] <SaS> Which is why I'm looking for that long duration.
[19:43] <edmoore> there have been flights of >100days without resorting to that
[19:44] <mfa298> I suspect getting a balloon launched in a more standard way is a better way to start, then try something a bit different once you know how a normal baloon works.
[19:46] <mfa298> adding an exoskeleton around the balloon adds complexity which means even more things to go wrong as well as added expense for materials and gas.
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[19:47] <SaS> I don't really see it that way, not too worried about expense.
[19:47] <SaS> I'm definitely doing some normal ballon launches.
[19:48] <edmoore> well, do the math, so to speak
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[19:49] <edmoore> on how much differential pressure you want to take, and how much additional mass a suitable exoskeleton would take
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[19:49] <SaS> Right. I was looking to any info on related design/success.
[19:50] <SaS> Haven't been lucky finding much about such a setup.
[19:50] <edmoore> it's because it's a bad idea
[19:50] <SaS> How so?
[19:50] <edmoore> i can drop the socratic method now and tell you not to bother
[19:51] <edmoore> just make a balloon envelope out of something strong enough in the first place to superpressure
[19:52] <edmoore> if the term 'superpressure balloon' is new then there's your google search term
[19:52] <SaS> Definitely new.
[19:52] <edmoore> there's the thing you want to research then
[19:53] <edmoore> those are balloons designed to take a higher internal pressure without popping
[19:53] <edmoore> they're how balloon researchers routinely gets weeks of flight
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[19:54] <SaS> Thanks, that's basically what I'm after.
[19:55] <edmoore> no probs
[19:58] <SaS> I just started looking in to this a few days ago. I know what I want to accomplish but I haven't really figured out the best way to go about it.
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[20:03] <SaS> superpressure sounds like a great idea but there really doesn't seem to be much of anything as far as commercial availability.
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[20:15] <SaS> There's definitely more than one way to contain the expansion of a balloon, having that built in to the balloon itself (superpressure) is one way of doing that but since it's not something that seems easy to go out and buy I'm already starting to divert back to my previous idea.
[20:18] <edmoore> ok well good luck
[20:19] <edmoore> let us know how it goes
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> ariane webcast about to start
[20:24] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.arianespace.tv/
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[20:26] <guido___> !ping b-64
[20:26] <SpacenearUS> 03guido___: Last contact with 03B-64 was 0313 days ago
[20:26] <Maxell> R.I.P. B-64
[20:27] <guido___> maybe it is hidden somewhere
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> hm
[20:28] <Lunar_Lander> it's the not so good commentator
[20:30] <arko> good night sweet prince
[20:35] <mfa298> SaS: I think there's been a few groups that have gone for the contained balloon approach but it's taken a lot of attempts to make it work. As edmoore suggested: do the maths on what you're going to need to make it work and see if it's really feasible.
[20:36] <Lunar_Lander> "The only cooler thing than being the English commentator would be to drive that truck. I would like to do that one day."
[20:36] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[20:37] <edmoore> less than 3 mins now
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[20:39] <SaS> mfa298: thanks, it's definitely going to take some work to get there. I haven't done any "standard" balloon launches yet so there's plenty of fun ahead. I want to do a simple launch with a spot tracker and see what happens.
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[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> liftoff
[20:40] <Laurenceb> what just lifeted off?
[20:40] <Laurenceb> *lifted
[20:40] <mfa298> if you're going for a long flight a spot tracker may not give you much information. From memory they cut out at 18km, latex balloons can reach >40km (depending on balloon and payload)
[20:41] <edmoore> those solids really give it a kick
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[20:44] <Lunar_Lander> ariane 5
[20:44] <Lunar_Lander> @laurenceb
[20:44] <SaS> I'm shooting for <60,000ft because of that, still working on the math behind it.
[20:44] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 60,000 ft = 18 km
[20:45] <SaS> Launching with a spot tracker would just be the proof of concept before loading it up with the desired payload.
[20:48] <SaS> Desired payload is a few gopros, external drive, and laptop to record data, as well as some HF gear for the communication side.
[20:49] <SaS> I just want to launch it from here in Hawaii and have it crash land anywhere in the continental US for retrieval.
[20:50] <ulfr_> Huh, we have an SI bot here?
[20:50] <ulfr_> How interesting,
[20:50] <SaS> ?
[20:51] <edmoore> ulfr_, yes
[20:52] <edmoore> it's to translate things into science
[20:52] <SaS> rgr
[20:52] <edmoore> 147ft
[20:52] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 147 ft = 45 m
[20:52] <mikestir> 12 nm
[20:52] <qyx_> 15 pints
[20:52] <mikestir> lol. no good for nasa use then
[20:53] <mikestir> mind you it probably thought I meant nanometres
[20:53] <edmoore> charitable assumption
[20:53] <Munrek> jcoxon: ok thanks, I would like to try it with a SDR receiver
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[20:54] <Laurenceb> 12 nanofeet
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[20:58] <daveake> <SaS> Desired payload is a few gopros, external drive, and laptop to record data, as well as some HF gear for the communication side
[20:59] <daveake> Was that suupposed to be 1 sentence?
[20:59] <ulfr_> edmoore: I like that idea.
[20:59] <mfa298> daveake: sounds like Pico Americur
[21:00] <daveake> That's what I'm fearing
[21:00] <mfa298> although surely that needs a portable generator and re-fueling blimps to keep the laptop going
[21:01] <Laurenceb> oxygen blimp to power the generator
[21:01] <mfa298> Laurenceb: I was about to add something along the lines of: and if you think that's a good idea go learn some science ;)
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> xD comparing the rocket to superman
[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> Satellite 1 seperated
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[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> Satellite 2 seperated
[21:12] <Lunar_Lander> mission complete
[21:13] <edmoore> deorbit upper stage i hope
[21:13] <edmoore> unless it's going to geo
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[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> it is in GTO
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> it would be good if they deorbit it
[21:19] <edmoore> i don't think they deorbit things from geo
[21:19] <edmoore> just push them into a graveyard orbit at eol
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[21:19] <Fak> hello
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[21:20] <edmoore> among the more memorable contributions to this channel
[21:22] <Lunar_Lander> true
[21:22] <Lunar_Lander> but gto is the big ellipse from about 200 km to GEO altitude
[21:23] <Lunar_Lander> well it could be that things burn up at perigee on that trajectory
[21:25] <edmoore> assuming it's the sat rather than the upper stage doing circularization
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[21:28] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:28] <Lunar_Lander> I think Proton flights usually do the apogee injection with the upper stage
[21:28] <Lunar_Lander> but now on Ariane, the sats do it themselves
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[21:29] <Lunar_Lander> also because they already are free of the upper stage now
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[21:38] <mikestir> what's involved in circularising the orbit in terms of fuel for the sats? is it a major operation?
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[21:39] <edmoore> fairly
[21:39] <edmoore> it's a decent kick
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[21:41] <edmoore> i think about 1500m/s
[21:42] <mikestir> is it a single operation or does perigee build up over several orbits?
[21:43] <edmoore> i think a single one often
[21:43] <edmoore> thought it might take some adjustment in subsequent orbits
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[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> and as the fuel is one of the limiting factors of satellite lifetime, they try to use it economically
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> or use other systems
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[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> as they said, the DIRECTV-14 has electric drives for steering when in GEO
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[21:48] <mikestir> yeah wasn't there one that ended up in the wrong transfer orbit but they managed to get it to geo by using up all of its stationkeeping fuel and then make do with it being a bit wobbly?
[21:49] <SaS> back
[21:50] <SaS> the idea behind my ballon idea is to take a large flexible plastic sheet that's about 1/16 of an inch thick and pop rivet the ends together and place a cap on each end using the same material.
[21:50] <SaS> and inflate the balloon inside
[21:50] <Lunar_Lander> AsiaSat3 aka HGS-1
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> the one sent to the moon and back
[21:51] <SaS> and place flexible solar cells along the top and outside of the cylinder
[21:51] <Lunar_Lander> that was a great idea
[21:51] <SaS> the laptop will have a very low power draw with no screen and with a solid state drive
[21:52] Action: mfa298 wonders how heavy this payload might be - kg or tonnes ?
[21:52] <SaS> I'm trying to target a payload of less than 15lbs.
[21:52] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 15 lbs = 6.8 kg
[21:52] <mikestir> why use a laptop rather than, say, a raspberry pi or a dedicated embedded board?
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[21:53] <SaS> A laptop doesn't weigh much when you strip it down, i.e. just the motherboard, drive and power source.
[21:53] <mfa298> raspberry Pi uses even less power and much lighter.
[21:54] <SaS> Because I don't know shit about linux, I'm decent with VB6 and python.
[21:54] <mikestir> well do it in python then and run it on a pi
[21:54] <mfa298> and a microcontroller is even lighter and effiecient
[21:54] <SaS> Adding more lift is going to be quicker than months of learning curve.
[21:54] <mikestir> if you know python then the learning curve for using linux consists of logging in and typing "python"
[21:55] <SaS> A windows PC gives me all the functionality I'm looking for.
[21:55] <mikestir> it's actually significantly easier than using python on windows
[21:55] <mfa298> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/Funny/pico.jpg
[21:55] <SaS> Mainly all the USB connections for the sensors, cameras, mass storage device, and RTTY.
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[21:57] <SaS> This isn't going to weigh as much as you probably think it does.
[21:58] <mikestir> the pi has a camera that you can access directly from python. mass storage you just plug in same as windows. rtty is best done on a separate microcontroller either way, to ensure accurate timing
[21:58] <mfa298> well B+ has 4 usb connectors and you can connect some sensors to the gpio (which will probably be cheaper, more effiencent ...)
[21:58] Action: mfa298 suspects this could weigh more than I dread to think.
[21:59] <mfa298> how do you propose getting the laptop to run for several days / weeks
[22:00] <mfa298> the longest amateur payload flight length is well over 100 days (launched in July, last contact about 2 weeks ago but possibly still flying)
[22:00] <SaS> A solar array and battery bank.
[22:00] <SaS> I'm ordering a 10" laptop with an atom processor.
[22:01] <mfa298> and that weiged a fraction of what you're thinking you need!
[22:01] <SaS> Going to strip it down and do some run time testing.
[22:01] <SaS> Hoping to get 2-3 days off one battery charge.
[22:01] <SaS> The solar charging should be able to keep up without a problem.
[22:02] <SaS> I'm not trying to go for 100+ days.
[22:02] <mikestir> I think I can get 2-3 hours out of my atom netbook
[22:02] <edmoore> if solar charging works without a problem then surely the life is indefinite
[22:02] <SaS> Because you have a screen attached.
[22:02] <SaS> With no screen and an energey efficient solid state drive the battery life dramatically increases.
[22:03] <mfa298> my atom netbook managed about 8 hours off a new battery but that probably only had the screen going for half the time.
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[22:03] <SaS> Plus this thing will barely be processing anything.
[22:03] <SaS> It will be sitting idle most of the time.
[22:03] <mfa298> if you get >10 hours off a charge I'd be surprised. And >20W of solar is going to be heavy (remember you need enough capacity to charge batteries for the darkness period)
[22:04] <SaS> No background processes, no anti virus, no web browser. Just a small VB6 or phython app.
[22:04] <mfa298> I think that 8 hours my old netbook was doing very little most of the time - probably less than your vb6/python app
[22:06] <SaS> There's also the external battery pack as well, which is going to add charging ability to the laptop and to the sensor package.
[22:06] <mikestir> so assuming the battery is around 4.5Ah, which seems about right for a 10 inch netbook, to get two days you are looking at a maximum average power draw of 1 watt
[22:06] <mikestir> that is not a lot for a PC based system that hasn't been designed with ultra low power operation in mind
[22:08] <mikestir> I know this reads a bit like an anti-windows campaign, but it really isn't the right tool for the job here
[22:08] <SaS> Agreed.
[22:09] <SaS> On the power.
[22:09] <SaS> There's still a ton of work ahead, figuring out the total weight of this thing, power draw, etc.
[22:09] <mfa298> I think my netbook is average of around 10W draw, and I'm not sure screen made a huge difference to that.
[22:09] <SaS> I've never built a custom solar charging setup before so that will be a new experience.
[22:10] <mikestir> to put it into perspective, a typical purpose built long duration tracker with gps and rtty (or similar) is usually in the region of a few 10s of milliwatts
[22:10] <edmoore> but you've said it will not be a problem
[22:10] <mfa298> I'd be *very* surprised if you got this under 8kg if there's laptop, spot, extra batteries, solar etc.
[22:10] <edmoore> some preumably you've calculated it all already
[22:11] <SaS> I haven't calculated any of it.
[22:11] <mfa298> most of the B-* baloons (B-64 which managed the >100 days flight) are under 0.02 kg
[22:12] <SaS> It's all an idea at this stage.
[22:12] <edmoore> ok
[22:12] <edmoore> so
[22:12] <daveake> oh, so the laptop idea was serious
[22:12] <edmoore> you need to tone down your assertions by a factor of about 100
[22:13] <edmoore> at the moment what's happening is you're coming to a tennis coach saying 'i want to learn how to play tennis with a rolling pin! i can't be bothered with a racket, i have a rolling pin already'
[22:13] <edmoore> you're entirely at liberty to have a go
[22:13] <edmoore> but don;t tell the tennis coach that the rolling pin is fine
[22:13] <SaS> You're making a ton of assumptions yourself.
[22:13] Action: mfa298 wonders if the HF part will be an FT-101
[22:13] <mfa298> (http://habhub.org/zeusbot/logs_highlighted/highaltitude.log.20140617.html)
[22:14] <SaS> This thing isn't going to reach a high altitude due to it's weight, which I'm fine with.
[22:14] <daveake> best it stays on the ground frankly
[22:15] <edmoore> i am making no assumptions at all
[22:15] <edmoore> the following two statements are incompatible in engineering
[22:15] <edmoore> [22:01] <SaS> The solar charging should be able to keep up without a problem.
[22:15] <edmoore> [22:11] <SaS> I haven't calculated any of it.
[22:15] <mfa298> correction, it's not reaching a high altitude because you want to track it with a SPOT, you could potentially reach >30km with a suitable balloon
[22:16] <SaS> edmoore you misinterpreted that.
[22:16] <Ian_> Will this be a H2 balloon?
[22:17] <SaS> Haven't decided yet.
[22:18] <Ian_> Normally floaters don't have the requisite parachute, by dint of their pico nature. several kg will definitely require a chute, which will help add to the weight. Best to throw in a box of matches at launch I think and solve all the problems in one go.
[22:18] <SaS> I plan to use spot for tracking initial launches that don't have the rest of the payload thats described.
[22:19] <SaS> The launch with the laptop will just use USB GPS.
[22:19] <mikestir> which will probably also cut off at 18km
[22:19] <mfa298> what altitude will your USB gps work to ?
[22:19] <SaS> Then tx out rtty
[22:20] <Ian_> What is the cost of a Spot GPS. I see a lot at > $100 for which two or three trackers could be built
[22:20] <SaS> Hopefully to the full 18km limit.
[22:20] <Ian_> I guess that the budget is - $Generous
[22:20] <SaS> They're about $125 right now.
[22:20] <SaS> Yes.
[22:20] <Ian_> There is a saying about money.
[22:21] <mfa298> SaS: you know the gps module most people use (not USB) goes to 50km (with the amateur record being aroound 44km)
[22:21] <SaS> First few launches will be floaters with just a spot.
[22:21] <SaS> mfa298 I do now.
[22:22] <mfa298> 18km isn't a limit apart from gps devices that impliment the requirements poorly (most of them)
[22:22] <Ian_> I have friends who until recently considered baloon tracking to be a case of DFing the package. It took a while but slowly they are getting the message. The truth is that floaters ar normally irrecoverable unless you use some form of cut down device
[22:22] <SaS> ian_ that's fine.
[22:23] <SaS> I'm not worried about recovering a spot, $125 isn't the end of the world.
[22:23] <Ian_> Can you upgrade from a Spot and send a few in this direction please?
[22:24] <SaS> if you can find the balloons then have at it
[22:24] <SaS> ha
[22:24] <mfa298> what if you have to launch (and lose) 99 balloons before you workout how to make what you want work
[22:24] <mattbrejza> what colour are these balloons?
[22:24] <SaS> If the design is only able to take the payload up to a few thousand feet then that's fine.
[22:24] <daveake> For Google it was more than 99
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[22:24] <mfa298> mattbrejza: :)
[22:24] <SaS> Reaching a very high altitude isn't necessarily a primary goal.
[22:25] <mattbrejza> you might want to join #lowaltitude
[22:25] <SaS> This design could be an absolute failure, I've never done anything like this before.
[22:25] <mfa298> I think 18km if higher than google are aiming for and as daveake said it's taken them a lot of attempts (>100) to get something that stays up for a decent length of time
[22:26] <Ian_> Leo had a program that comprised 66 balloons before he was happy with the result, at around 13km altitude. Hopefully as you learn more you will refine your ideas and gain your goal
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[22:26] <SaS> I'm aware of googles efforts but don't know any of the details.
[22:26] <mfa298> oddly though several people here have launched a lot of balloons and they generally all have the same idea about this endevour ...
[22:27] <Ian_> Google have also recruited from this community I believe
[22:27] <SaS> The ballon itself is going to be contained so the overall structure is quite rigid by comparison which I'm hoping will help maintain the integrity of the balloon.
[22:27] <Ian_> On the basis of the work that he did - Dan
[22:28] <SaS> And since it's constrained in its maximum size potential it will have a limit to it's altitude and not come close to the bursting diameter/pressures.
[22:28] <SaS> That's the idea behind it.
[22:28] <Ian_> Mr Google has most of the answers - eventually
[22:28] <SaS> It's more of a blimp/dirigible than standard weather balloon.
[22:28] <edmoore> well i def encourage you to try this all out
[22:29] <edmoore> there is blimp/dirigible experience in this channel too
[22:29] <Ian_> We do wish you luck of course.
[22:29] <zyp> SaS, I suspect the uneven force on the balloon surface will hurt the integrity more than it helps
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[22:30] <SaS> As of right now I don't know shit about balloons but the overall goals are significantly different from what seem to the "standard" launches.
[22:30] <edmoore> this is a blimp with a PC104 (core2duo-based, running linux) computer and a bunch of sensors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K29dn0Mzspk&list=UUDdAMHrUMRwFU3JafszKI2w
[22:30] <SaS> zyp, possibly, I don't know that for sure.
[22:30] <mfa298> SaS: ignoring any payload you've got an interesting challenge just getting a balloon into some structure that will contain it and stop the UV degredation with enough Gas to lift that weight. Maybe just start doing some maths on that (i.e. what will this thing weigh per square meter, and what gas do you need to lift that). This will give some idea of how it will work.
[22:31] <SaS> Yes, exactly, that's the starting point.
[22:31] <SaS> The first prototype will just have a spot attached, with some extra AA's for extended life.
[22:31] <edmoore> that blimp has an inner bladder for gas and an outer ripstop nylon skin for strength
[22:31] <SaS> I want to keep it under that 18km limit that I've read is the maximum capability of the spot.
[22:32] <SaS> Then develop it from there.
[22:32] <Ian_> Energiser Lithium batteries for the low temperature operation!
[22:33] <SaS> And scale it up as necessary to carry the payload I'll be working on in tandem.
[22:35] <mfa298> I think one thing you should do fairly soon is work out what the payload needs to do and choose a suitable platform for it. Whilst "I'm using a laptop because windows is all I know" is a reason for going that way I'm not sure I'd score that reason that highly especially if one of your potiential programming platforms is python (which is native to linux)
[22:36] <edmoore> SaS, to put that into perspective, that blimp could take about 4-5kg to about 1000ft above the launch level
[22:36] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 1000 ft = 305 m
[22:37] <mfa298> low power, lightweight and small should probably score higher (e.g. some form of embedded computer system)
[22:39] <SaS> a laptop isn't necessarily going to be the final solution either, none of this is set in stone, but for right now I plan on going with some form of windows on running on the lowest power draw I can manage to come up with
[22:39] <SaS> stripped down laptop, tablet maybe, embedded system, there are a lot of options to explore
[22:40] <SaS> the goal is to just float this thing to the continental u.s., there is no specific altitude goal, I just want it to get there.
[22:41] <SaS> and to take pictures along the way and have some form of 2 way comms
[22:41] <zyp> what's your budget?
[22:42] Action: mfa298 is glad he isn't in the US, I wouldn't want this landing in my neighbourhood
[22:42] <SaS> A few thousand.
[22:42] <SaS> $5000ish
[22:42] <SaS> I'm in Hawaii.
[22:44] <edmoore> the payload doesn't sound like it need be especially heavy
[22:44] <edmoore> 3-4kg maybe
[22:44] <SaS> Agreed.
[22:45] <SaS> I read a few articles about people putting up 10-15lb payloads so I used that as a reference point. Clearly a lighter payload makes things easier and would result in some more interesting pictures.
[22:45] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 15 lbs = 6.8 kg
[22:46] <edmoore> 3-4kg is heavy for what you want to do, but not crazy in absolute terms
[22:46] <mfa298> I susoect it could be more if there's laptop + batteries + solar to recharge all that + 1/16 inch thick material to contain the balloon and protect it from UV.
[22:46] <edmoore> the payload that's just gone round the world about 10 times is less than 15g
[22:46] <edmoore> for reference
[22:46] <mfa298> a better design should be a lot lighter than that (but stripped down laptop probably isn't in the better design category
[22:46] <SaS> Yeah.
[22:47] <SaS> I haven't settled on 1/16 inch material yet either, that's just the initial idea, seems quite easy to put together and it's relatively light.
[22:49] <SaS> Figured I'd do something along those lines for a trail run with the spot attached and see how it does.
[22:51] <edmoore> my thinking with this whole thing is that you'll be unhappily surprised by the mass of your containment skin
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[22:54] <SaS> That's a definite possibility.
[22:55] <mfa298> interestingly it looks like for ~17km with around 7kg of payload weight you could probably do it with a 700g balloon, so you'de need enough material for ~7m diameter.
[22:55] <SaS> I haven't figured out a lighter solution yet. A thin plastic cylinder is the best solution that has come to mind so far. I'm not really interested in sewing together a containment vessel using light weight material.
[22:55] <mfa298> so convert that to the area of a sphere and you can start estimating the weight of the containment
[22:55] <Laurenceb> wtf is the topic of conversation?
[22:56] <Laurenceb> non sane superpressure designs?
[22:56] <SaS> That about sums it up, yes.
[22:56] <zyp> Laurenceb is an expert on nonsane designs
[22:56] <Laurenceb> look into packaging films
[22:57] <Laurenceb> i see a troll
[22:57] <mfa298> Laurenceb: a possible contender for Pico Americur
[22:58] <SaS> What about using mylar emergency blankets.
[22:58] <Laurenceb> maybe
[22:58] <SaS> Light weight, fairly durable, they could be heat sealed together.
[22:58] <Laurenceb> if it was the 1960s
[22:58] <Laurenceb> there are some amazing films on the market now
[22:58] <SaS> I'll have to look in to it.
[22:59] <qyx_> I remember few days ago I was quote worried by the possibility of landing 0.5kg on my head at 8m/s
[22:59] <qyx_> now I know i don't want to live in US being exposed to 4kg payloads
[23:00] <qyx_> *hawaii to be exact
[23:00] <edmoore> i presume you run away from birds?
[23:00] <edmoore> stay indoors when the geese are migrating?
[23:01] <qyx_> actually i haven't done any research in this topic
[23:01] <qyx_> i assume that it is not so common for birds to just fall down
[23:01] <edmoore> i won't pretend to be shocked
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[23:01] <edmoore> it might not be some common for a bird to die in flight
[23:01] <edmoore> but where there are 10^7 birds for each hab
[23:01] <mattbrejza> there are ducks around here that sometimes fly at head height
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[23:02] <SpeedEvil> Geese have a much more pronounced tendancy to die in flight in some seasons
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[23:03] <qyx_> pff, you distracted me from the original topic
[23:03] <Laurenceb> quick, inform the FAA
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[23:03] <edmoore> i think the question is whether or not ducks are licensed to quack over international waters
[23:04] <mattbrejza> they just need the correct identifier
[23:05] <Laurenceb> SaS: with modern packaging films and a high (>11.5km) float, the problem seems to become more of a electronics issue again
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[23:05] <SpeedEvil> SaS: we've just seen a >>100 day float
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> and it's still up there likely - just thebattery died
[23:06] <Laurenceb> yeah
[23:06] <Laurenceb> we need to publish a paper on it, need to talk to Leo
[23:06] <qyx_> and wheres leo?
[23:06] <SaS> Okay, had another thought on a possible material. Sheets of plastic, similar to what a shower curtain is made out of, heat welded together with the balloon inflated inside.
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> SaS: there is really no point.
[23:06] <edmoore> what does it weigh per square metre SaS?
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> SaS: use the proper material - you do not want to duplicate layers
[23:06] <Laurenceb> packaging is a multi billion industry
[23:07] <Laurenceb> they are solving all the same issues
[23:07] <Laurenceb> much better than one person could in their spare time
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> Except they rarely worry about helium.
[23:07] <SaS> speedevil I'm not sure yet but lighter than the previous idea.
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> But - it turns out that oxygen/water barrier plastics do just about the same job.
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> lol
[23:07] <edmoore> make a spreadsheet
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> _MUCH_ better
[23:07] <SaS> speedevil yes I do want duplicate layers to keep the balloon from expanding.
[23:07] Action: Laurenceb has an NDA with Kuraray
[23:07] <edmoore> mass of envelope vs volume, how much lift that gives you, or how much payload to what altitude
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> you do not want a balloon
[23:08] <Laurenceb> id disagree with you SpeedEvil
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> and a seperate constraint layer
[23:08] <Laurenceb> i think Google have got a lot of people looking at balloons recently
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: err - on what
[23:08] <Laurenceb> and taking them seriously
[23:08] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: oh - right
[23:08] <Laurenceb> balloon related stuff...
[23:09] <Laurenceb> in principle theres no reason you cant fly for > a decade
[23:09] <SaS> speedevil why not?
[23:09] <Laurenceb> the materials already exist to do it
[23:09] <Laurenceb> satellite replacement starts to look feasible...
[23:09] <SpeedEvil> SaS: because you're re-making - terribly - what is churned out in literally milion ton amounts
[23:10] <SpeedEvil> SaS: http://www.eval.eu/media/28322/eval%20film%20high%20res.pdf
[23:11] <Laurenceb> eval == Kuraray
[23:11] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: Oh!
[23:11] <Laurenceb> just a brand name
[23:12] <SpeedEvil> http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/PA-PE-EVOH-9-layer-co_1273088079.html
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/China-manufacturer-of-metallized-pet-evoh_1648352085.html
[23:13] <SpeedEvil> That has an EVOH layer for oxygen barrier - a mylar layer for strength, and a PE layer so you can heat-seal it
[23:14] <Laurenceb> or just email them
[23:14] <Laurenceb> they are happy to help
[23:15] <SpeedEvil> yes - I'm not seriously suggesting china
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[23:16] <Laurenceb> google loon almost looks sane now they have switched to LTE
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[23:17] <Laurenceb> well... the all optical free space backhaul in the patents is mental :P
[23:18] <SaS> Thanks for the help. Later.
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[23:23] <SpeedEvil> Is there much more to the patents than 'point a laser at the other thing'
[23:23] <Laurenceb> yes
[23:23] <Laurenceb> think undersea networking kit, but in free space
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[23:23] <Laurenceb> this is genius http://www.rbsp.info/rbs/RbS/PDF/aiaa05.pdf
[23:28] <Myself> oh, neat
[23:28] <Myself> 2005
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[23:34] <Myself> I love the idea of direct power generation; laptop batteries are gonna look weird!
[23:35] <Laurenceb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratosolar
[23:35] <Laurenceb> lol
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> 'screw you carnot, you're not coming to this party'
[23:36] <Myself> Carnot, car-yes! Electric vehicles, anyone?
[23:36] Action: Myself straps a Mr. Fission into the back of a Fiero
[23:37] <Laurenceb> Mr Fission: gas mask and lead suit included for free
[23:38] <Laurenceb> http://www.stratosolar.com/ lolling
[23:39] <SpeedEvil> Actually- isn't ita heat engine, and they're wrong
[23:39] <SpeedEvil> it's simply that Th is _stupid_
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[00:00] --- Sun Dec 7 2014