highaltitude.log.20141203

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[01:33] <MaXimaN> amell: I get mine from eBay
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[01:51] <Crash-1> amell: what country are you in?
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[02:31] <Ian_> amell is in the UK
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[07:40] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PLSTRA-1 after 038 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=PLSTRA-1
[07:41] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PLSTRA-2 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=PLSTRA-2
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[08:26] <fsphil> looks like hayabusa 2 got off safely
[08:26] <fsphil> another one to look forward to
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[08:28] <fsphil> http://www.asahi.com/articles/ASGD3310NGD3TIPE003.html
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[08:28] <fsphil> it went off at quite an angle
[08:36] Nick change: day- -> day
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[08:40] <mfa298> amell: most of the filament we get at work comes from amazon (I think whichever seller comse up first)
[08:44] <craag> School friend of mine runs e3d, so I'll give that a push http://e3d-online.com/Filament
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[09:38] <pfy_> !whereis B-64
[09:38] <SpacenearUS> 03pfy_: 03B-64 was over 03South, Iceland 10(64.1198,-19.0706) at 0312451 meters about 0310 days ago
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[09:45] <amell> !rip B-64
[09:48] <fsphil> now's the time for someone else to try :)
[09:49] <es5nhc> Time to get out the Spirit xkcd comic
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[09:58] <x-f> that's too depressing, es5nhc
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[10:02] <x-f> Leo made B-64 so good that only a volcano could stop it
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[10:55] <day> amell: it died? :O
[10:56] <day> it probably left earth, after that many slingshot maneuvers :P
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[11:03] <edmoore> i like that the mailing list is full of improbably suggestions
[11:04] <edmoore> volcanic eruptions and being stuck in local vortices
[11:04] <edmoore> rather than just that the days are way shorter now and it's colder
[11:04] <edmoore> improbable*
[11:05] <lz1dev> the simplest explaination is usually the right one
[11:06] <lz1dev> aka dead battery
[11:06] <lz1dev> it may still be floating, just can't beacon
[11:07] <lz1dev> from narrative prespective, volcano is a great explaination
[11:08] <amell> well, it did appear to be having trouble charging just before it disappeared
[11:08] <amell> 2.6V at 5pm local time, going into the night.
[11:09] <lz1dev> bat is dead, it just too cold
[11:09] <craag> If it's gone north I doubt it'd have enough voltage to beacon at all, even at midday
[11:09] <craag> So we wait..
[11:09] <edmoore> indeed, it's not 24hr darkness inside the circle
[11:09] <amell> the big question is will it wake up in the spring or will the battery be irreversibly damaged?
[11:09] <edmoore> though i'm not sure if that's true at 12km asl
[11:09] <edmoore> it's now*
[11:10] <craag> edmoore: And it needs the sun to be >> horizon to get a decent rate of charge
[11:10] <amell> solar panels were horizontal at launch
[11:10] <amell> i wonder if they should have been vertical
[11:11] <craag> Leo didn't expect it to last this long
[11:11] <craag> And they worked fantasticly at the time of launch!
[11:11] <fsphil> according to a random calculator I just found, the sun won't appear even 12km above the pole
[11:11] <craag> vertical causes fun with dark panels when they don't face the sun
[11:11] <amell> do they work on the underside?
[11:12] <craag> no
[11:12] <craag> at least not any construction im aware of
[11:12] <lz1dev> fsphil: you know mt has a sun overlay right?
[11:13] <fsphil> does it adjust for altitude?
[11:13] <lz1dev> no
[11:13] <lz1dev> but 12 km is nothing
[11:13] <fsphil> it's more important in the arctic
[11:14] <lz1dev> not really
[11:15] <lz1dev> its perma night for stuff above 70 latitude
[11:15] <x-f> at my latitude the sun doesn't get higher than 10 degrees above horizon :/
[11:15] <x-f> today
[11:16] <edmoore> horizon from 12km is about 400km
[11:16] <edmoore> so if you're within 400km of the arctic circle you should see the sun
[11:16] <edmoore> at some point
[11:16] <edmoore> even if it's just a firey fringe for a second
[11:17] <fsphil> currently 12.2 degrees here
[11:18] <lz1dev> edmoore: yes but within 400km, the sun is on the true horizon
[11:18] <lz1dev> you probably want 3-5 degrees above
[11:18] <lz1dev> 5 degrees is like 120kms
[11:18] <edmoore> oh sure
[11:18] <edmoore> certainly
[11:19] <edmoore> but 400km from circle puts you to about 70 degrees
[11:19] <edmoore> 'but' is not the right word
[11:19] <edmoore> that factoid is unrelated
[11:19] <edmoore> so basically north of 70 and you're perma-dark till spring
[11:19] <lz1dev> sure, but you may catch a glimpse for like an hour
[11:19] <lz1dev> at best
[11:23] <lz1dev> anyway
[11:23] <lz1dev> im more inclined to believe it poped, than dead battery
[11:23] <lz1dev> since it takes a sharp turn and goes back to a nice low latitude
[11:24] <lz1dev> europe russia japan, would've caught a packet or too
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[13:45] <Laurenceb_> re B-64
[13:45] <Laurenceb_> i plotted battery voltage with temperature compensation
[13:45] <Laurenceb_> there was a 300mv hump over the first 30% of discharge that was getting worse
[13:48] <qyx_> what dies it mean
[13:48] <qyx_> *does
[13:48] <Laurenceb_> http://ecec.mne.psu.edu/Pubs/047304JES%202013.pdf
[13:49] <Laurenceb_> oops wrong link
[13:49] <Laurenceb_> http://trs-new.jpl.nasa.gov/dspace/bitstream/2014/41485/1/08-0012.pdf
[13:49] <Laurenceb_> page 4
[13:49] <Laurenceb_> B-64 was starting to look like D
[13:51] <day> Sanic-64
[13:52] <qyx_> does that lithium plating cause internal shorts?
[13:52] <Laurenceb_> yes
[13:53] <Laurenceb_> good news is there was no sign of icing, gas loss, or envelope yellowing
[13:53] <Laurenceb_> heating during the day was constant at ~5C
[13:54] <Laurenceb_> and any icing was causing less than 1.5grams of lift loss, with ~5 grams free lift
[13:54] <Laurenceb_> so the envelope should fly for years
[13:56] <Laurenceb_> wow nice
[13:56] <Laurenceb_> http://www.projectaether.org/main/images/Aether-Chicago_b.jpg
[13:57] <edmoore> that's daytime in chicago
[13:57] <Laurenceb_> lol
[13:59] <Laurenceb_> in a way its a pity it flies so long
[13:59] <Laurenceb_> really hard to test improvements quickly
[14:00] <Laurenceb_> i guess the existing setup with a supercap in place of the lipo, then a FET to connect the lipo in series with the cap would be one solution
[14:00] <Laurenceb_> with a software based low temperature charging cutoff, and some sort of way to cut off a shorting cell
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[14:01] <fsphil> not a bad picture
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[14:11] <Laurenceb_> something like this
[14:11] <Laurenceb_> http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electronics/Resources/product-datasheets/Bus_Elx_DS_4393_PB_Series.pdf
[14:12] <Laurenceb_> ~1gram, 1J stored energy, prob enough for ublox/tx power transients
[14:20] <SpeedEvil> -25C
[14:21] <SpeedEvil> I don't know if that's just because they don't test that low
[14:25] <Laurenceb_> aiui the ESR goes up as temperature decreases, but -45C should be ok
[14:25] <Laurenceb_> dunno if they use a water based electrolyte tho
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[14:25] <LIERO> hi
[14:26] <Laurenceb_> that may freeze below ~ -50
[14:26] <LIERO> what's the maximum altitude you can achieve with a tethered off the shelf balloon?
[14:26] <SpeedEvil> LIERO: depends where your shelf is
[14:26] <LIERO> )
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> tethering is hard
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> any minor amount of wind makes it go sideways
[14:28] <qyx_> Laurenceb_: gps hotstarted for 5s @ 30mA @ 1.8V is about 0.075mWh
[14:28] <qyx_> radio tx is about the same
[14:28] <Laurenceb_> ok
[14:28] <qyx_> + something for mcu, lets say 15s at 5mA
[14:28] <qyx_> 0.19mWh for signel burst
[14:28] <qyx_> and 1J is ~0.277mWh
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> Joules is probably a handier unit
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> apparently the aqueous stuff is always multiples of <2.3v
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> so looks like those are organic electrolyte
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor#Electrolytes
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> theres these.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_capacitor
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> but same damage problems
[14:31] <Laurenceb_> http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20090011272.pdf
[14:32] <mfa298> LIERO: Depending on where you are in the world there may be rules limiting how high a tethered balloon can be (at least without permission from the relevant authorities) but as SpeedEvil said you might have other issues before you get to that point.
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[14:33] <SpeedEvil> From memory, there are no actual rules on tethered balloons under 2m in the UK
[14:33] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[14:34] <SpeedEvil> I'm not sure if that 2m could be read to include the string
[14:34] <Laurenceb_> lol
[14:34] <mfa298> if it's tethered presumably the string and what it's attached to needs to be under 2m
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> naah - there are sane rules for >2m baloons
[14:35] <mfa298> whilst I know they say the world is getting smaller I didn't think they meant in that way (or that small)
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> LIERO: where are you?
[14:35] <LIERO> Bulgaria
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> Above answer was for the UK
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> Don't know the rules in Bulgaria
[14:36] <mfa298> UK I think it's up to 60m above ground level without permission. after that you might need a notam.
[14:36] <mattbrejza> <2m though?
[14:37] <mattbrejza> although theres 60m of cable lol
[14:37] <mfa298> that 60m bit was more for >2m
[14:37] <mfa298> I doubt a <2m balloon could lift that much string.
[14:37] <SpeedEvil> Sure it can
[14:38] <daveake> easily
[14:38] <SpeedEvil> 2m is 5 cubic meters - 8 kilos or so
[14:38] <SpeedEvil> that's enough for several kilometers
[14:38] <SpeedEvil> (using spectra)
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[14:59] <Laurenceb_> http://www.bigbangneverhappened.org/p7.htm
[14:59] <Laurenceb_> it never happened and he looks pretty pissed about that
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[15:16] <Reb-SM0ULC> Laurenceb_: oh, modern webpage.... not.. :) not records since 2003.. mm
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[16:26] Nick change: Steffann -> Steffanx
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[16:55] <SpeedEvil> http://www.framley.com/advertcalendar/index.html
[16:56] <kobold> how do i connect a SAW filter together with a lna4all
[16:57] <craag> RF in -> LNA -> SAW -> RF out
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[16:58] <kobold> but in the scematics of habamp they put some capacitors on the to sides of the saw filter
[16:58] <craag> SAW will have IN, GND, OUT
[16:58] <edmoore> i doubt that very much
[16:59] <mattbrejza> the lna might be dc biased
[16:59] <craag> They're dc blocking caps
[16:59] <edmoore> that's almost certainly the case
[17:00] <edmoore> but you shouldn't need them if you're doing nothing but inserting a saw after an off-the-shelf lna
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[17:01] <edmoore> unless the saw is going to stop the biasing of the lna
[17:02] <kobold> thx
[17:02] <kobold> now i know everything
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[17:03] <fsphil> everything? :)
[17:03] <adamgreig> sudden and painful enlightenment
[17:04] <craag> kobold: The link to the EPCOS SAW Filter datasheet on the hab supplies page has some info about how to connect it
[17:05] <craag> (hab amp page)
[17:05] <kobold> that i want to know
[17:06] <craag> well for an engineer - I'd say that ~= everything
[17:06] <amell> Laurenceb_: you should write up your findings on B-64 battery.
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[17:06] <Laurenceb_> yeah i need to improve my plotting script first
[17:13] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BoSS - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=BoSS
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[17:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HABDUINO - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=HABDUINO
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[18:01] Action: kc2pit_ reads Laurenceb_'s link to NASA's Li-ion temperature tests.
[18:02] Action: kc2pit_ gets to page 18.
[18:02] <kc2pit_> http://explosm.net/db/files/Comics/Dave/comicsans2.png
[18:02] <SpeedEvil> I can't see fonts
[18:03] <SpeedEvil> I mean - I don't notice them
[18:03] <kc2pit_> It was a really good read, though, despite not using consistent test conditions for the various cell types.
[18:03] <kc2pit_> ("Let's test these at -40C, and that kind at -10C, and this other type at -20C...")
[18:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M0UPU-Chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=M0UPU-Chase
[18:09] <Myself> Oh I love font-trolling people I suspect of being snobs for such things.
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[18:20] <Maxell> kc2pit_: wait, comic sans in NASA docs?
[18:21] <Maxell> Interns.....
[18:21] <arko> trolls
[18:21] <kc2pit_> I was just gonna go with "old people."
[18:24] <Laurenceb_> anyone know how to configure zero-if mode on si446x ?
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[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> evening
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[23:36] <superkuh> Fluffy socks; the key to large scale HAB.
[23:38] <superkuh> ref: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2014/12/project_loon_how_google_s_internet_balloons_are_actually_working.single.html , which has probably already been linked here.
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[00:00] --- Thu Dec 4 2014