highaltitude.log.20141202

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[00:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 037510 Springdale_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=7510%20Springdale_chase
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[00:34] <amell> rapidly coming to the conclusion this rpi wifi adaptor is a lemon. tried a new distribution, usb powered hub etc. what a waste of flipping time.
[00:35] <amell> anyone got a recommendation for a solid usb wifi adaptor?
[00:38] <craag> I use TL-WN722N
[00:39] <amell> on rpi? what chipset is that
[00:39] <craag> It's an atheros 9k chipset, so well supported on linux
[00:40] <amell> 8 quid. this works in wheezy? looks pretty good. just rather large
[00:41] <craag> I've had 20 of them running for about 6 months straight now - had a fw crash on one, but reloading the kernel module fixed it.
[00:42] <amell> ok. says it needs powered usb hub
[00:42] <craag> Runs fine on B+
[00:43] <craag> Having a powered hub with any RF TX device on a non-plus is a good idea
[00:44] <craag> They have a large surge current when plugged in that can reboot the pi
[00:44] <amell> yeah. moved this one to powered hub. and it no longer reboots
[00:45] <amell> linux recognises the usb device, loads firmware, spits out loads of error messages about cant read status, then i get a usb disconnect.
[00:45] <craag> hmm :/ what chipset?
[00:46] <amell> im pretty certain as can be that this adaptor is fubared.
[00:46] <amell> rt2x00_set_rt: Info - RT chipset 5390, rev 0502 detected
[00:46] <craag> can you pastebin the errors?
[00:46] <amell> ok one sec
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[00:50] <amell> http://pastebin.com/h6Ux20RJ
[00:51] <amell> pretty nuts.
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[00:54] <craag> Yeah - not too helpful
[00:54] <craag> what kernel version are you using on that image?
[00:55] <amell> Linux octopi 3.12.33+ #724 PREEMPT Wed Nov 26 17:55:23 GMT 2014 armv6l GNU/Linux
[00:55] <amell> rpi-update doesnt give me anything more recent
[00:56] <craag> Nope that's the most recent
[00:58] <amell> out of ideas now.
[00:58] <amell> will buy that one off amazon
[00:59] <craag> It looks like there's some more recent rt2800 fw around
[00:59] <amell> i cant find any. the latest i have found on mediatek site is 2009.
[00:59] <craag> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=999751#c17
[01:00] <amell> ok will try that
[01:02] <fsphil> I've had good results with several tp-link usb adaptors on the pi
[01:02] <fsphil> they all just work
[01:02] <fsphil> really big though
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[01:03] <fsphil> also this: http://proto-pic.co.uk/miniature-wifi-150mbps-802-11b-g-n-module-for-raspberry-pi-and-more/
[01:04] <amell> just tried 0.33. exactly the same output
[01:05] <amell> that proto-pic- is that a realtek chipset?
[01:07] <fsphil> will check
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[01:10] <fsphil> yea
[01:11] <fsphil> Realtek Semiconductor Corp. RTL8188CUS 802.11n WLAN Adapter
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[01:15] <amell> TP-Link TL-WN725N - 6 quid from amazon, and i am prime. sorted.
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[01:22] <fsphil> they tricked you into signing up for that too? :)
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[01:23] <amell> it was free
[01:24] <amell> well had it for three months now. i got a free trial for a month, and cancelled immediately. wife signed up then, and added me, then amazon added another month to wifes for a complaint. result :)
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[01:26] <fsphil> nice
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[08:07] <x-f> http://www.erikwernquist.com/wanderers - Wanderers - a short film
[08:07] <x-f> "Wanderers is a vision of humanity's expansion into the Solar System, based on scientific ideas and concepts of what our future in space might look like, if it ever happens."
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[08:14] <fsphil> http://www.cnet.com/news/see-rosettas-comet-in-color-for-the-first-time/
[08:15] <fsphil> an actual colour image rather than that very nice artisic one
[08:15] <fsphil> artistic*
[08:30] <pc1pcl-qrl> Wonder if it really is 'red', or that the camera just happens to be more sensitive to red,.
[08:32] <fsphil> I imagine that's a very well calibrated camera
[08:35] <lz1dev> looks like it's not white balanced
[08:35] <fsphil> it might be stretched to bring out the colour too
[08:35] <pc1pcl-qrl> I guess it could be re-calibrated by looking at a reference star, but from earlier news I gather the comet's extremly dark,
[08:36] <fsphil> yea nearly black
[08:37] <pc1pcl-qrl> so I'd imagine they indeed 'stretched' the range quite a bit, and then maybe a small difference/offset favouring red comes out as a red haze over the wholething.
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[08:38] <pc1pcl-qrl> Still I don't think it would really look like that picture if you were riding along on rosetta and looking at it with a human eye..
[08:38] <lz1dev> tbh looks like it has increased saturation or vibrance
[08:38] <fsphil> some nice images of the moon with that
[08:43] <lz1dev> http://i.imgur.com/CKJhDDC.png
[08:43] <lz1dev> looks more believable
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[08:44] <fsphil> does
[08:44] <lz1dev> white is ice, covered by grey dust
[08:44] <lz1dev> unless its covered in copper dust
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[08:48] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 0350SAT - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=50SAT
[08:51] <lz1dev> The OSIRIS camera was already responsible for an impressive true-color image of Mars released in 2007.
[08:51] <lz1dev> http://www.esa.int/var/esa/storage/images/esa_multimedia/images/2007/02/true-colour_image_of_mars_seen_by_osiris/9969705-2-eng-GB/True-colour_image_of_Mars_seen_by_OSIRIS_node_full_image_2.jpg
[08:51] <lz1dev> i think they just pushed the sensitivity of the camera to max
[08:51] <lz1dev> and that's why it's red
[08:52] <lz1dev> same thing happen in phone cameras
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[08:52] <lz1dev> older phones won't auto balance the color, and you will get red tinted image
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[10:36] <SA6BSS> Longest time betwen updates of a B-ballons is 12 days, will be fun to se if some of the b6* balloons defrost a wakes up in the spring :)
[10:43] <fsphil> !ping b-64
[10:43] <SpacenearUS> 03fsphil: Last contact with 03B-64 was 039 days ago
[10:43] <fsphil> not far of that now
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[11:20] <edmoore> there >
[11:20] <edmoore> or there <
[11:20] <edmoore> depends on your irc browser
[11:21] <edmoore> or just some call to view the list of names
[11:21] <edmoore> there are many possibilities
[11:27] <Michemto> :D
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[11:55] <amell> !whereis 50SAT
[11:55] <SpacenearUS> 03amell: 0350SAT was near 03Pembroke, Bermuda 10(32.29999,-64.8) at 030 meters about 0312 hours ago
[11:56] <amell> someone on their holidays?
[11:57] <amell> Thursday looks like a good day for habbing in the UK
[11:58] <amell> and Wednesday for straight up and down flights
[11:58] <mfa298> I think that's a special case for payloads that don't send a location
[11:58] <amell> anyone launching weds/thurs?
[11:59] <lz1dev> !aprs list-bal 6
[11:59] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Recent balloons: SM7MUN-7, PU3XGS-11, BV5AB-11, SV1BYK-7, PU5PEP-11, CS7ACM-11, 9W2WIY-9, SQ5NWI-14, OM3BC-11, EA3IK-11, ED1ZAR-11, 9W2BPA-9, EA5DOM-11
[11:59] <lz1dev> go hunt :)
[11:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Stowe scholl on thursday according to iCal
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[12:06] <amell> Hayabusa 2 launch is at 4am tomorrow. hope it goes well.
[12:09] <mixio> Hello everyone, haven't seen this channel some years :P
[12:10] <fsphil> not much has changed :)
[12:10] <mixio> fsphil: funny as always :P
[12:10] <mixio> how is ssdv doing?
[12:11] <mixio> did you do realtime 3d transmission to the moon and back ? :P
[12:11] <fsphil> that's still on my TODO list
[12:12] <mixio> btw, I still didn't launch slaros #3 to test your ssdv
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[12:47] <SpeedEvil> Where to get helium cheap: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SOUJP5dFEg
[12:50] Nick change: day- -> day
[12:53] <amell> how many balloons is that? what a waste of helium&
[13:00] <edmoore> 17
[13:00] <edmoore> (balloons)
[13:01] <daveake> I made it 42. I guess your balloons are bigger
[13:01] <edmoore> you know me
[13:03] <SpeedEvil> I would guess well over a hundred litres of LHe
[13:04] <Oddstr13> 144.8 is dead silent ._.
[13:05] <daveake> "A typical MRI scanner uses 1,700 litres of liquid helium, which needs to be topped up periodically"
[13:05] <SpeedEvil> ~100m^3 or so
[13:05] <SpeedEvil> ~2000m^3
[13:05] <SpeedEvil> then
[13:05] <SpeedEvil> enough for a small airship
[13:06] <daveake> it'd keep me going for about 50 years
[13:06] <SpeedEvil> Leo for at least 3 weeks. (at peak output)
[13:06] <daveake> Nah he uses teeny amounts :)
[13:07] <Oddstr13> oh man, that would've been a lot of floaters
[13:07] <daveake> if only there were a cheaper, lighter alternative that could be made at will
[13:07] <Oddstr13> oh, i don't know... water maybe?
[13:09] <SpeedEvil> daveake: lithium
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[13:28] <Oddstr13> I'm hearing some sort of picture transmission on 27.7 MHz
[13:31] <fsphil> how do you know it's a picture?
[13:34] <Oddstr13> sounds like sstv
[13:35] <Oddstr13> you know, starts with those tones
[13:35] <fsphil> ah yes
[13:35] <fsphil> mmsstv does those little tones, not sure if they're functional or just a nice intro note
[13:35] <fsphil> they might signal the format
[13:35] <Oddstr13> or just allow for calibration?
[13:36] <thasti> VIS
[13:37] <thasti> http://www.g0hwc.com/sstv_modes.html
[13:38] <Michemto> That sounds weird if you talk to normal person about hearing a picture :D
[13:39] <Oddstr13> what is normal anyway?
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[13:40] <Oddstr13> can still hear something in the background there, but not anywhere near a decodable audio level
[13:40] <Michemto> :D
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[13:42] <SpeedEvil> http://www.freemovement.org.uk/an-immigration-lawyer-reviews-paddington/
[13:47] <fsphil> http://www.seeingwithsound.com/winvoice.htm
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[13:50] <amell> I saw a helium recycling system at the cavendish lab a couple of years ago.
[13:51] <amell> it was basically a flipping huge bag hanging from the ceiling.
[13:51] <amell> or should i say, stuck to the ceiling.
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[13:58] <edmoore> we always got helium for free from boc for ballooning
[13:58] <edmoore> when we aksed if this wasn't a great expense for them they said that what they gave us was about 0.1% of the daily leakage from the cavendish
[13:59] <gonzo_> we could offer a recycling facicliy too. Just the bag could be a bit tell rescricted
[13:59] <gonzo_> ?
[13:59] <gonzo_> bit less restricted
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[14:11] <Oddstr13> http://satomi.openshell.no/tmp/Screenshot%20-%2012022014%20-%2003%3a10%3a16%20PM.png I don't think the choppy waterfall is a good sign :P
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[14:17] <Oddstr13> aww, it's getting dark :(
[14:19] <edmoore> welcome to winter
[14:20] <Oddstr13> But... I like being able to see the 10, 11 and 12m bands :(
[14:20] <Oddstr13> havn't found any interesting local signals yet
[14:23] <edmoore> at this point i would give up and go for a drink
[14:23] <edmoore> treat the lack of interesting activity as a sign from god
[14:24] <edmoore> but then I am a rubbish ham
[14:25] <SpeedEvil> Oddstr13: leetle blimp with a 100W LED on it
[14:25] <Oddstr13> well, I can still see the hams at 10m
[14:25] <Oddstr13> but the CB band is gone
[14:26] <Oddstr13> or not, i guess it's fading back and forth at the moment
[14:29] <Oddstr13> I need a HamItUp. so I can play with SDR stuff after dark too :P
[14:38] <Oddstr13> http://satomi.openshell.no/tmp/Screenshot%20-%2012022014%20-%2003%3a35%3a41%20PM.png got a partial decode from one recording
[14:44] <Oddstr13> oh, look, 27.7 is listed as a SSTV frequency http://www.amateur-radio-wiki.net/index.php?title=SSTV_frequencies
[14:46] <qyx_> 6.50e for sdr dongle, not bad
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[14:51] <Oddstr13> qyx_: how do you measure that?
[14:52] <qyx_> i mean the price
[14:52] <Oddstr13> oh, ¬?
[14:52] <qyx_> by looking at ebay checkout :P
[14:52] <qyx_> yep
[14:52] <Oddstr13> either use the symbol, or EUR
[14:53] <qyx_> nah
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[16:26] <fsphil> hmm
[16:26] <fsphil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_eruption_of_B%C3%A1r%C3%B0arbunga
[16:26] <fsphil> regarding that email on the list
[16:26] <fsphil> B-64 would've flown fairly near that
[16:34] <lz1dev> half the hysplit lines on top of it
[16:38] <ulfr_> huh
[16:38] <ulfr_> somebody made a wikipedia entry on that
[16:39] <fsphil> volcano was not one of the ways I thought B-64 would end :)
[16:39] <lz1dev> guess thats what it takes
[16:39] <fsphil> if it is that, we may never know
[16:40] <ulfr_> It would have to land there...
[16:40] <fsphil> it may still be beeping away
[16:40] <lz1dev> not if it felt in the magma :)
[16:40] <fsphil> not sure how waterproof it is, it'll be being rained on now
[16:40] <fsphil> water and ash
[16:41] <ulfr_> huh
[16:41] <fsphil> it's battling the balrog
[16:41] <ulfr_> 9 days ago.. and I didn't even notice that it was going through my igate
[16:41] <lz1dev> can a volcano spit a hot drop of magna up to 12km ?
[16:42] <ulfr_> *can* yes.
[16:42] <ulfr_> But not this eruption.
[16:42] <ulfr_> it's only spilling lava couple of meters in the air
[16:42] <lz1dev> this one seems way underway to be spitting that high
[16:42] <ulfr_> it's just lava flowing...
[16:43] <lz1dev> there were some high winds on that day
[16:43] <fsphil> would it get enough dust up to 13.4km?
[16:43] <lz1dev> maybe one bit managed to fly and pop the balloon
[16:43] <fsphil> it wouldn't take much dust to weigh it down
[16:43] <fsphil> and reduce PV output
[16:44] <ulfr_> I highly doubt it
[16:44] <lz1dev> what about hot air
[16:44] <lz1dev> could it lift it high enough to burst the balloon?
[16:44] <ulfr_> No.
[16:44] <ulfr_> Unless b-64 landed in that volcano, it's not going to affect it.
[16:45] <lz1dev> but its a good end to the story
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[16:46] <fsphil> the last dust cloud that caused problems over the EU didn't seem to stop trans-atlantic traffic at about 11km
[16:47] <fsphil> I launched by first balloon during that - we basically had the sky to ourselves
[16:47] <fsphil> by/my
[16:48] <ulfr_> Yeah, that was because it was erupting under glacier
[16:48] <ulfr_> causing the ash cloud.
[16:48] <ulfr_> If Bárðabunga goes off then we'll have a similar situation, only worse.
[16:48] <ulfr_> And northern europe will probably suffer a mild nuclear winter for the years to come.
[16:50] <fsphil> yay
[16:50] <fsphil> B-64 was the first sign...
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[17:30] <arko> !ping b-64
[17:30] <SpacenearUS> 03arko: Last contact with 03B-64 was 039 days ago
[17:30] <arko> :(
[17:32] <kobold> Why is a hab amp better than a lna4all for hab tracking
[17:32] <kobold> with a lna4all you could also amp other freqencies
[17:33] <craag> the filter on the front of an rtlsdr is very wide
[17:33] <craag> like 50MHz+ wide at any decent attenuation
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[17:33] <craag> so if there's a strong tx 20MHz down, it'll deafen the rtlsdr
[17:34] <craag> the habamp has a saw filter that narrows this
[17:34] <mattbrejza> and intermod
[17:34] <craag> so now you've only got to worry about strong signals in the SAW filter range
[17:34] <kobold> and is it possible to use that filter together with lna4all
[17:35] <craag> Of course
[17:35] <craag> the habamp jsut puts saw+lna on a single pcb for you
[17:35] <kobold> where can i find such a diagram
[17:36] <craag> RF in -> LNA -> SAW -> RF out
[17:36] <craag> ^^ there
[17:36] <mattbrejza> irc CAD
[17:36] <mattbrejza> (TM)
[17:36] <craag> :D
[17:36] <kobold> thnx
[17:37] <craag> The saw filters don't tend to be cheap/available in small quantities
[17:37] <craag> 430 is one of the most common though
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[17:39] <craag> Seriously btw, it's a very simple layout - the saw filter has (in,gnd,gnd,out), the lna probably (in,gnd,gnd,out)
[17:40] <craag> lna then jsut needs dc injection (through an inductor) in the 'in'
[17:40] <craag> Take a look at the photos of the habamp
[17:40] <mattbrejza> isnt the LNA powered from a DC bias inductor? (well it varies)
[17:40] <mattbrejza> but yea, reverse engineering is easy for these
[17:40] <mattbrejza> might need some matching to 50ohm too
[17:40] <mattbrejza> datasheet will say :)
[17:41] <craag> most don't nowadays
[17:42] <mattbrejza> hmm cant say ive looked much
[17:42] <craag> habamp is one of the best I've come across tbh
[17:43] <craag> built a couple on the pga103+ but they tend to a) oscillate making noise, or b) oscillate and fry themselves
[17:43] <mattbrejza> lol
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[18:00] <gonzo_nb> they are not good with 10watts up their arse either
[18:01] <craag> heh, did that to my habamp :P
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[18:02] <gonzo_nb> I made a pga103 lna for vhf nfd, with lpf for 2mtrs and sucknouts on 50/70mhz
[18:03] <gonzo_nb> worked great till the sequencer was bypassed and txed up the rx chain
[18:04] <gonzo_nb> it's repaired and on my funcube station, and is excellent
[18:04] <gonzo_nb> very impressive little device
[18:05] <craag> They're amazing performance - we had them on the websdr for a bit
[18:05] <craag> they just needed a power toggle to calm them down every couple of weeks :/
[18:05] <craag> now using habamps for 2+70
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[18:06] <craag> and have removed 1296 today
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[18:31] <fsphil> a dual band habamp would be nifty and would totally sell at least one Upu Darkside hint
[18:31] <Upu> 2mtr/70cms ?
[18:32] <fsphil> yea
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[18:32] <Upu> one antenna dual outputs ?
[18:33] <fsphil> nah same as is. 2m/70cm colinear > habamp > fcd
[18:33] <gonzo_nb> assuming the z of those fikters is high out of band, may be poiss to just puggy back them
[18:33] <fsphil> hmm that might work
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[18:34] <gonzo_nb> seperating o/p should be easy too in that case
[18:34] <daveake> hmmm
[18:35] <gonzo_nb> neve can spell that
[18:36] <mfa298> do you then have a habamp with two outputs (seperate 2m and 70cm) or a combined output.
[18:37] <mfa298> although that might not be too hard to make an option with suitable headers and solder pads
[18:38] <gonzo_nb> depending on the bw of the antenna, may be enough to just use a preamp directly and put the fiktering at the fcd
[18:39] <gonzo_nb> if using the pro+, even that is not needed
[18:39] <fsphil> my thinking is one output
[18:39] <fsphil> this is for my remote FCD station
[18:39] <gonzo_nb> recon it's going to be difficult to overload a modern mmic
[18:39] <fsphil> it needs a habamp as it's so easily overloaded
[18:39] <fsphil> but using it would filter out 2m too
[18:40] <gonzo_nb> old fcd?
[18:40] <fsphil> yea
[18:40] <gonzo_nb> ok
[18:40] <fsphil> may as well use it for something
[18:40] <gonzo_nb> thought the same about mine
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[18:45] <mfa298> dual output could be interesting as you could potentially feed two receivers from the same dualband antenna and lna
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[18:57] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[19:00] <Michemto> hoi
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[19:27] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EURUS - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=EURUS
[19:29] <fsphil> not heard of eurus in ages
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[19:34] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03UKRHAB-2 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=UKRHAB-2
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[20:25] <Pi-per> good evening :) can somebody tell me what the easiest way is too send a "hello world" string with the raspberry tnc? i am a little confused over all these suggestions on the internet (ax25, netrom, rose, tcp/ip over ax1.5 and so on)
[20:26] <Pi-per> i just want to broadcast a message to my radio when an event on the raspberry occures
[20:27] <fsphil> what kind of tnc are you using?
[20:28] <mfa298> presumably you have a suitable license for transmitting or you're doing this on a license exempt band (most ax25 use is on amateur bands so needs an amateur radio license)
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[20:29] <Pi-per> tnc pi
[20:29] <Pi-per> license exempt band
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[20:30] <Pi-per> tnc pi = tnx http://www.tnc-x.com/TNCPi.htm
[20:32] <mfa298> I think it should be a case of just sending suitable commands over serial or i2c from the Pi for that.
[20:32] <Pi-per> i would like some simple solution (if possible). i conntected for a friend (which is a licence amateur operator) the ntx2 to his raspberry
[20:32] <mfa298> you also need to plug the TNC-Pi into a suitable transmitter module
[20:33] <Pi-per> it is connected to a transmitter, but after my first run with kissattach i cant send any data to the serial port
[20:33] <mfa298> if you're using rasbian have you disabled the various things that use the serial port by default
[20:34] <Pi-per> and without kissattach the tnc also does not seems to send any data send to /dev/ttyAMA0 (raspberry uart)
[20:34] <Pi-per> i have disable all accoriding to the manual
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[20:36] <Pi-per> just a (stupid) question, am i right, that the oly purpuse of the tnc is to convert digital data to an audio stream for the transmitter?
[20:36] <mfa298> the instructions seem to cover most of what I can think of (I'm only going by what the site says and what I know of the Pi and packet radio)
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[20:36] <mfa298> that's what it does.
[20:36] <mfa298> similar to a modem in the days of dialup internet (if you're old enough to remember that)
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[20:37] <mfa298> what radio module are you wiring the rnc pi up to
[20:37] <Pi-per> 56k age ^^
[20:37] <fsphil> ahhh the sound of dialup
[20:38] <Pi-per> its an chinese cb radio, opend up and connected to the pi
[20:39] <Pi-per> i have once used kissattach and ax25 with the radio of the friend and was able to create a packet radio connection to paxon
[20:40] <Pi-per> but is there no simpler way, without ax25, just uart + tnc -> radiosignal
[20:40] <pc1pcl> http://www.tnc-x.com/TNCPi.pdf <- manual
[20:41] <Pi-per> yes, read it already and like i said, have already acomplished an packet radio connection
[20:42] <mfa298> for transmit only a simpler way would probably be using something that generates the audio onboard the pi and connect the audio out to the radio mic input
[20:43] <Pi-per> but i would like to not use ax25, kiss and so on, because it makes things complicated (i dont know what kiss is for?). i want the raspberry so send data via a phyton or c script if an event occures
[20:43] <pc1pcl> yes, more for reference for others here. from wha tI understand of a qucik glance through the manual it's geard to Ax25
[20:44] <mfa298> depending on the range needed you might be better off using a dedicated radio module like the rfm69 or lora module (rfm98 ?)
[20:44] <mfa298> you program them and send data via SPI and the module handles putting it into packets and decoding those packets for you
[20:45] <Pi-per> yes somethink like the ntx2 would be easier, but the tnc is already boughed and i thoughed maybe somebody has a little more experiance and could help
[20:45] <Pi-per> :/
[20:46] <pc1pcl> probably 'easier' to just connect sound of pi to mic of radio, and use a gpio to drive ptt. probably would need a relay of some kind and some level convrsion between audio and mic.
[20:46] <mfa298> unless you re-program the tnc (if that's even possible) then you're probably stuck with ax25 and probably kiss as that's what they're designed for.
[20:47] <pc1pcl> yeah, once you would wnat to upgrade the straightforward link between soundcard and radio, youd be re-inventing all th e 'hard' stuff th eTNC does for you.
[20:48] <Pi-per> so a tnc is confugured that special?
[20:48] <pc1pcl> I think I understand what you're trying to do though.
[20:49] <pc1pcl> yeah, just like old time modems were fixed to particular standard of 'modulation' they performed
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[20:49] <Pi-per> i thought its more like a complex D/A Converter
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[20:50] <craag> They're more like a serial adaptor that happens to transfer 1/0 as different tones
[20:50] <craag> RX TNC decodes the tones back to rs232
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[20:51] <pc1pcl> I Guess Pi-per was probably expecting a kind of straightforward converter to convert a serial character (a series of electrical coded bits) to a series of beeps like rtty.
[20:53] <Pi-per> hm, quite confusing
[20:53] <pc1pcl> but it's doing more for you, which you'll eventually appreciate, but at the moment just makes it too much of a 'step' to take in understanding.
[20:54] <pc1pcl> the ntx2 you mentioned is (well can be used) more like a 'voltage to beep converter'
[20:54] <pc1pcl> although the beeps are RF instead of audio
[20:54] <Pi-per> hm, has anybody used a kissattached port for programming?
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[20:55] <Pi-per> because after starting ax25 and kissattach can't write to the serial port, because it is taken by kiss, instead i have a ax0 port in the network interface
[20:55] <pc1pcl> http://www.ax25.net/kiss.aspx
[20:57] <pc1pcl> maybe you can skip the kiss attach at first (or forever)?
[20:57] <Pi-per> if i can, i would
[20:58] <Pi-per> but if i do not use kissattach i cant send data to the tnc
[20:58] <pc1pcl> and talk to the TNC over the serial link using terminal emulator or even just using echo > /dev/ttyS0
[20:58] <pc1pcl> (use stty to set up the correct/expected by the tnc baudrate etc.)
[21:00] <Pi-per> tried this with stty -F /dev/ttyAMA0 19200 and echo "Hello world" > /dev/ttyAMA0
[21:00] <Pi-per> but th tnc does not sends data or activates ptt
[21:01] <daveake> No you need to talk the TNC language; you can't just send text and expect it to pass that on
[21:01] <Pi-per> what is the tnc language?
[21:01] <daveake> kiss
[21:02] <Pi-per> so is there something like "Hello world" > Kiss?
[21:02] <daveake> Why don't you look up what kiss is and how it works?
[21:03] <daveake> I don't know the answer so I'm not being awkward
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[21:03] <daveake> Too late now probably but TNC + radio is overkill for sending hello world down to the ground
[21:04] <Pi-per> ok, but if i would wrap my message into kissformat the radio should send the massage?
[21:04] <Pi-per> yeah, maybe i have choosed a very rocky path
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[21:05] <daveake> a pair of modem chips (any of the rfm things) would do it easily
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[21:13] <pc1pcl> crap provider doing maintenance :(
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[21:14] <Pi-per> yes, but the big goal is to release a drone (submarine) in a few years, which should send back data/images from deep sea
[21:14] <pc1pcl> "The "asynchronous packet protocol" spoken between the host and TNC is very simple,"
[21:14] <pc1pcl> but there is a protocol there, see that kiss.aspx page.
[21:15] <pc1pcl> "This asynchronous framing protocol is identical to "SLIP" (Serial Line IP), a popular method for sending ARPA IP datagrams across asynchronous links. It could also form the basis of an asynchronous amateur packet radio link protocol that avoids the complexity of HDLC on slow speed channels. "
[21:15] <pc1pcl> basically you're looking to do the last part of that..
[21:15] <pc1pcl> (at least for now, as a first test)
[21:15] <Pi-per> i believe with an tnc there a more possibilities for radios with more performance
[21:15] <pc1pcl> so I think you have to send 'FEND' (0xC0) character to end the previous frame (all the crap it has gotten form you so far ;) ) and start a new one, then a 'NUL' (0x00) first to designate the rest of the frame as data to send over port 0,
[21:16] <pc1pcl> then your data, "HELLO WORLD", and another FEND (0xC0).
[21:16] <pc1pcl> then the TNC should 'queue' that frame for transmission, and eventually (probably right away though) try to key up the radio and transmit .
[21:16] <Pi-per> ok so i guess
[21:16] <Pi-per> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_%28TNC%29#Send_the_characters_.22TEST.22_out_of_TNC_port_0
[21:17] <pc1pcl> of course you'd need a receiver set up to then hear that and do the reverse..
[21:17] <Pi-per> this shows what i should send to the serialport
[21:17] <pc1pcl> Hadn't read that wikipedia article yet, but looks like it's doing what I said, which was based on the protocol description on http://www.ax25.net/kiss.aspx
[21:18] <pc1pcl> perhaps easier to first try to listen to what the TNC tells you back?
[21:18] <pc1pcl> from what I read, it won't say anything back, the only defined message-back type is a type 0, which has received data.
[21:19] <Pi-per> well if this works to get the tnc to send data its quite a big step forward for me
[21:19] <pc1pcl> So I guess that if you can hook it up to something receiving data, e.g. aprs messages or a local packet radio station (do they still exist?)
[21:21] <pc1pcl> then just 'cat /dev/ttyANA' (or whatever the device name for the serial port is), you should get some stuff back.
[21:21] <pc1pcl> probably gibberish to the human eye as there will be a higher level protocol at work, but in sync with the packets heard
[21:22] <Pi-per> you mean when listening to a radio?
[21:22] <pc1pcl_> yeah, do you have a receiver that you can tune to 144.800 or 144.390 (dependending on where you are)
[21:23] <Pi-per> yes at my friends house
[21:23] <Pi-per> just to be sure
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[21:23] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03kilometres_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=kilometres_chase
[21:24] <pc1pcl> so you could try connecting that receiver up and see if the output of the TNC is what you expect..
[21:24] <Pi-per> ok, just to be sure, when i am directly sending data wrapped in kiss format to my tnc, my data will be converted an transmitted through radio
[21:25] <Pi-per> but it wont be in ax25 format
[21:25] <Pi-per> so i also have to build a receiving station?
[21:25] <pc1pcl> correct, all counts as far a I understand it.
[21:25] <pc1pcl> so for the receiving station you probably need another tnc.
[21:26] <mfa298> Pi-per: for deep sea you might need to look at something very different - I'm not sure you can get particularly high data rates over rf, you might want to check out the attenuation of water on various frequencies (this is mostly based on watching a few submarine films though)
[21:26] <pc1pcl> although that could be a pc running a software kiss tnc.
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[21:26] <pc1pcl> you can probably also try using a (high quality) recording of your tnc's output, and play it back to it.
[21:26] <Pi-per> @mfa298, data will be send when the submarine is using its solarcells to power the batteries
[21:27] <mfa298> with a receiver nearby or trying to do some distance ?
[21:28] <Pi-per> large distance
[21:28] <mfa298> still data/images over ax25 could be a slow process
[21:28] <pc1pcl> I am pretty sure the sub might ewventually be using something else to transmit, but this still helps to get your head around the concepts (and mine, as I'm just looking into KISS etc. just now)
[21:29] <Pi-per> jup, so far you have been a great help and guide into this topic
[21:29] <pc1pcl> Radio is probably a lot more 'primitive' and les magic than you imagine it to be.
[21:31] <mfa298> this sounds a bit like you want to get a few differnt modules etc. and play around with them all, see what sorts of data rates you can manage with some distance between them.
[21:31] <pc1pcl> if you can wire a headphone to the 'audio' out of the tnc, you can also probably figure out if it is actually sending something when you feed it stuff.
[21:31] <Pi-per> i have wired a speaker to the audio out
[21:31] <Pi-per> i can hear it sending/receiving data
[21:33] <Pi-per> just one further question
[21:33] <Pi-per> if i would like to use ax25 via uart, i would have to first wrap my text into ax25 formatting and this into kiss
[21:34] <Pi-per> so that i would send an ax25 frame
[21:34] <Pi-per> (just if i would want to tried packet radio the ugly way)
[21:34] <Pi-per> *try
[21:34] <pc1pcl> yes, I think so, although I also think that kissattach might do some/all of that for you.
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[21:36] <db_g6gzh> kissattach connects a kiss tnc to the linux kernel ax.25 stack, you can use the beacon program to send ax.25 frames
[21:37] <Pi-per> might be, but with all my effort i have neither found nor could create some way to send data through kissattach without the help of a program like call
[21:37] <pc1pcl> and then you'd use the 'standard' socket programming stuff, I guess call is something that could do that for you.
[21:38] <Pi-per> has the beacon program some kind of api, so that i could send data via a cpp/c or phyton written programm
[21:38] <db_g6gzh> well with kissattach the TNC is connected to the kernel, you then need to talk to the kernel
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[21:39] <pc1pcl> http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Sockets.html
[21:39] <pc1pcl> (whole new can of worms though)
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[21:39] <pc1pcl> used that stuff years ago when programming a MUD accessible over telnet...
[21:40] <db_g6gzh> you caould call the beacon program from a script, use -s for a single shot message http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/trusty/man8/beacon.8.html
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[21:40] <pc1pcl> it's all layers upon layers :) You're approaching 'getting your driver's license' from the angle of 'figuring out what petrol is' first.
[21:40] <db_g6gzh> but the ax.25 api is the kernel sockets layer
[21:42] <pc1pcl> lots of people driving cars that don't know what a piston even is, so it's not essential to learn all that stuff (but arguably more fun, and perhaps you are a better driver if you know what a clutch actually does under the hood)
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[21:42] <lz1dev> a pistol is a gun
[21:43] <Myself> a pistil is part of a flower's gonads
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[21:43] <lz1dev> you know your plant's anatomy, sir
[21:43] <pi_per> hello, lost connection
[21:43] <pc1pcl> welcome back :)
[21:44] <pc1pcl> probably missed my analogy of your approach to learning this stuff to learning to drive...
[21:44] <pi_per> thanks, has somebody written somethink back to my question
[21:44] <db_g6gzh> you could call the beacon program from a script, use -s for a single shot message http://manpages.ubuntu.com/manpages/trusty/man8/beacon.8.html
[21:44] <pi_per> *something / jup
[21:45] <pc1pcl> http://habhub.org/zeusbot/logs/highaltitude.log.20141202 <- you can read back here
[21:45] <db_g6gzh> or look at its source code to see how to sned messages from your own appliaction
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[21:47] <pc1pcl> you need to decide if you just want to learn enough to 'use a car to drive to the mall and back safely' or also 'how does the engine really work'.
[21:48] <pc1pcl> and then what you want to know first. probably a bit of both.
[21:48] <db_g6gzh> I adapted it to send APRS weather beacons https://github.com/dbrooke/ax25-tools/blob/wsaprs/ax25/beacon.c
[21:48] <pi_per> yeah, but driving without knowing how the engine works is not as fascinating as knowing what is happening under the hood
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[21:48] <pi_per> thank you very much, the beacon script is a great help
[21:49] <pi_per> i will try out both ways
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[21:49] <pi_per> first to see if i can send my selfbuild kiss messages and after if i can use your script
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[21:50] <db_g6gzh> OK, have fun 8-)
[21:50] <pc1pcl> yeah, still might get boring if you need to learn all the details of metallugy, both for casting parts for an engine, and to build that drilling rig to get the oil you'ree going to refine into gasoline (or diesel, or both because you want to know both techniques) etc. Probably there's a cut-off point somewhere :))
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[21:50] Action: SpacenearUS is going for a nap.
[21:51] Action: SpacenearUS is back!
[21:51] <pc1pcl> Hopefully we got at the right kind of mix for you at the moment.
[21:51] <pi_per> i now have a path, at least
[21:52] <pi_per> i have been working the hole day trying to find a way and have become very dizzy in my head
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[21:52] <pi_per> so much protocols and layers, just lost sight of what to do
[21:52] <pc1pcl> see also https://home.comcast.net/~wb2osz/site/ for a software tnc to run on your pc to act as a second station.
[21:53] <pc1pcl> you could probably start with not even using a radio yet, just audio frequencies through air from speaker to microphone.
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[21:55] <pc1pcl> once you get one 'station' working for sure to some degree, you can then use that to verify you're understanding how to control the other, and dive deeper 'under the hood' as desired.
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[21:57] <pc1pcl> all the layers are supposed to make it easier for day-to-day use, but when you're just learning, it probably makes it more of a barrier..
[21:57] <pi_per> yes, step by step sounds like an good idea
[21:58] <pc1pcl> Bedtime for me, thanks for the questions triggering me to look some of this stuff up.
[21:58] <pi_per> db_g6gzh: would you mind if i ask you questions via mail, if i have questions regarding you c-script
[21:58] <pi_per> thanks for helping me and pushing me in the right direction
[21:59] <pc1pcl> I hope it's the right direction ;)
[22:00] <pi_per> if not i should at least have learned a lot about ax25 and kiss on my way
[22:00] <pi_per> :D
[22:01] <pi_per> which will definitly help me to get further
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[22:02] <db_g6gzh> pi_per: my email in that man page is no longer valid, I'll give you one that works in a private message
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[22:04] <db_g6gzh> BTW I wasn't the original author of beacon, just a contributor
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[22:05] <pi_per> if all works out, i wont bother you, but its always good to know some smarter person, who maybe can help
[22:07] <db_g6gzh> whether it's the solution to your application I can't say but at least you should be able to try it and see
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[22:36] <Ian_> I always got the impresson that simple commands and text were fed into the TNC at one end and essentially came out of the companion TNC at the other.
[22:37] <Ian_> The AX25 stuff was all handled between TNCs. The fact that they are called Terminal Net Controllers is indicative of the complexity hidden from the users.
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[22:38] <Ian_> A good start surely would be to find a user manual for your particular TNC on line. Mr Google can help enormously there. The AEA PK88 was very popular back in the day.
[22:44] <Ian_> Giving this a quick read might help a little http://www.ddentremont.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/aea-pk-88-user-manual.pdf
[22:50] <fsphil> he left
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[22:58] <Ian_> Headed for trouble elsewhere . . .
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[22:59] <Ian_> When you think about it, the PK88 was just yesterday's metal boxed IC. Today you don't get the box, just the chip.
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[23:01] <gonzo_nb> think it was Terminal Node Controlers
[23:01] <gonzo_nb> still have my tiny 2
[23:01] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
[23:02] <gonzo_nb> from the 80's
[23:02] <gonzo_nb> gn
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[23:02] Nick change: vk5fsck-15 -> vk5fsck
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[23:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PLSTRA-1 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=PLSTRA-1
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[23:46] <amell> anyone else have a 3D printer? if so where do you get your filament from
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[00:00] --- Wed Dec 3 2014