highaltitude.log.20141129

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[01:19] <mightymik> we need a fresh B balloon
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[01:20] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VK3YT-11 after 033 days silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=VK3YT-11
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[02:17] <Oddstr13> Well, If B-64 wendt further north, it might just be that it has no sunlight what so ever
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[07:51] <spacetoday> What do you guys think is the future of HABs? The tech is cool but in some ways it doesn't feel like it has advanced as far as it could
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[07:58] <mfa298> spacetoday: how do you expect it to advance
[07:59] <mfa298> I think in terms of flight duration and amateur habbing there's been some advancment recently
[07:59] <spacetoday> I'm not sure I *expect* anything, I just don't see the value in stagnant technology
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[08:00] <spacetoday> except for teaching people and getting them involved in science, I guess
[08:01] <mfa298> If you're expecting them to go higher and higher then unfortunatley I think you'll find physics gets in the way
[08:03] <spacetoday> that's my point - I'm curious where people who are invovled in the community think the next frontier is, because it's not really higher
[08:03] <spacetoday> longer, perhaps, or with broadcasting ability, like Google Loon
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[08:04] <mfa298> longer duration has been happening (see B-64 as an example), also different radio modes.
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[08:06] <mfa298> broadcasting for general public is going to be tricky due to licensing and power (most are already broadcasting their position somehow to people that know how to receive it)
[08:07] <jcoxon> the current frontier is amateur super-pressure
[08:07] <jcoxon> and with that long duration flights
[08:08] <mfa298> I'd say that and playing with other radio technologies (Lora, ukhasnet etc)
[08:08] <jcoxon> yes agreed - certainly what i'm working on
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[08:55] <Rdizzle> 11,14
[08:55] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03HORUS - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=HORUS
[09:00] <Rdizzle> 2,99,913666,9
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[09:59] <Reb-SM0ULC> SpacenearUS: well, i wouldn't call it stagnant. maybe a little less acceleration for a moment. but people are working in many aeras..
[10:01] <goopypanther> spacetoday unfortunately logged off or else I would have added
[10:01] <Reb-SM0ULC> aaah
[10:04] <goopypanther> I think the future is probably payloads and data, most of the launches return gps and temp at most, I'd like to see more nano payloads send barometric data, air purity. Gas sensors seem to be more energy hungry and heavier.
[10:05] <Reb-SM0ULC> right, and on the receiving side, both on the ground and aloft, the revolution with ultra-cheap SDRs like rtldongels etv
[10:12] <Reb-SM0ULC> goopypanther: i probably think ssdv is the most cool application softwarewise, since it support a distribution of receivers to collect all data and put it together.
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[10:41] <SpeedEvil> Air purity is hard
[10:42] <SpeedEvil> _really_ hard
[10:42] <SpeedEvil> Smoke detectors or simple hacks using gas sensors intended for safety of life don't cut it
[10:42] <SpeedEvil> you actually need sensitive gas analysers to do meaningful stuff
[10:42] <SpeedEvil> Unless, of course, you overfly bits of china
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[10:57] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PEAKSKY after 0313 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=PEAKSKY
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[11:05] Action: SpacenearUS is going for a nap.
[11:05] Action: SpacenearUS is back!
[11:05] Action: SpacenearUS got confused... send help
[11:06] Action: SpacenearUS is back!
[11:10] Nick change: Matt_soton -> mattbrejza
[11:12] <mattbrejza> !ping b-64
[11:12] <SpacenearUS> 03mattbrejza: Last contact with 03B-64 was 036 days ago
[11:13] <SpeedEvil> :/
[11:15] <fsphil> nooo
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[11:18] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[11:19] <mfa298> i think we've had longer periods of silence from B-64 in the past although maybe much longer than this
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[11:20] <lz1dev> yes, but it was over land without coverage
[11:21] <lz1dev> it had almost 2 days over europe without contact
[11:23] <mfa298> although if it's taken a northern path to russia it could have had limited light for solar.
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[11:31] <lz1dev> on the other hand, how often has hysplit been wrong?
[11:32] <lz1dev> could the cold temperature kill the lipo?
[11:32] <Upu> lipo is dead anyway I think
[11:32] <fsphil> would killing the lipo stop it running of solar?
[11:32] <Upu> it wasn't maintaining charge over night
[11:32] <Upu> I think it needs some voltage on the battery to start the tracker
[11:32] <lz1dev> only 0.5v from solar
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: tyes
[11:34] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: if the battery shorts - the payload gets no voltage
[11:36] <lz1dev> longer nights at -50C > battery
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[11:45] <Lunar_Lander> what was the currently last day of contact?
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[12:01] <SpeedEvil> !seeb b-64
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> !ping b-64
[12:01] <SpacenearUS> 03SpeedEvil: Last contact with 03B-64 was 036 days ago
[12:01] <SpeedEvil> So sunday
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[12:04] <SpeedEvil> I guess to miss swedish recievers along the coast, it's pretty much got to go northeast. Not ESE - as the most northerly of the hysplits has it
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[12:56] <Lunar_Lander> thanks SpeedEvil
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[13:14] <pd3t_> !flights
[13:14] <SpacenearUS> 03pd3t_: Current flights: 03B-64 434.500 Contestia 64/1000 10(3afe)
[13:14] Nick change: pd3t_ -> pd3t
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[14:01] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PS-25 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=PS-25
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[14:50] <guido_> !ping b-64
[14:50] <SpacenearUS> 03guido_: Last contact with 03B-64 was 036 days ago
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[15:47] <Lunar_Lander> 134 days between launch and comms out
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[18:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03M1 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=M1
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[18:47] <mattbrejza> fairly sure the bot and bot interations have made up 70% of activity in here today
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[18:48] <lz1dev> mattbrejza: you will have to accept our mechanical overlords
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[19:28] <Babs_> Evening all (I'm not a cop, just being social)
[19:28] <Babs_> Quick Q on ublox protocols
[19:29] <Babs_> So my code turns off the various NMEA sentences that the ublox churns out as a default. i.e. sending it a string of the form 0xB5, 0x62, 0x06, 0x24, 0x24, 0x00, 0xFF, 0xFF, 0x06, 0x03, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x10, 0x27, 0x00, 0x00, 0x05, 0x00, 0xFA, 0x00, 0xFA, 0x00, 0x64, 0x00, 0x2C, 0x01, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x00, 0x16, 0xDC
[19:29] <Babs_> etc.
[19:29] <Babs_> it works fine on my old ublox 7, on the new ublox it also works fine but then i am getting some weird results
[19:30] <Babs_> my suspicion is that the configuration messages have changed
[19:30] <Babs_> however, i set them all up 6 months ago and forgot how i did it
[19:30] <adamgreig> i think just the 8s have some new messages sent by default that you need to turn off
[19:30] <adamgreig> about the non-gps constellations
[19:31] <Babs_> thanks adamgreig
[19:31] <Babs_> the nav-pvt instruction had changed, and i tracked that down
[19:31] <Babs_> i have just forgotten where i found the config codes to turn off the various default sentences
[19:31] <adamgreig> on my ublox max-m8 i turn off... GGA, GLL, GSA, GSV, RMC, VTG and that seems to work fine
[19:31] <Babs_> was it in u-center? and if so where?
[19:31] <adamgreig> you can do it from u-center
[19:32] <adamgreig> the actual numbers are in the receiver prototcol specification document
[19:32] <adamgreig> though i've also written them here https://github.com/cuspaceflight/m2-electronics/blob/master/m2r/firmware/ublox.c
[19:32] <adamgreig> but yea, uh
[19:32] <adamgreig> none of those are new messages
[19:32] <Babs_> i am setting gll,, vtg, gga, gsa, gsv and rmc off too
[19:33] <adamgreig> can you monitor the gps serial and see what it's sending?
[19:33] <adamgreig> certainly on my m8 that was enough to get it to shut up
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[19:33] <Babs_> so the thing is the data i am getting back from the nav-pvt poll is correct in string length, so no problem there
[19:34] <Babs_> but it just returns a zero from the bit of the string that is meant to indicate a lock and a zero from the number of satellites
[19:34] <adamgreig> does the gps in fact have lock?
[19:34] <adamgreig> if you have a PVT message that has a valid checksum and has a zero in the lock field...
[19:35] <Babs_> it may or may not have lock, but it does spit out the time and lat long correctly, so it must have >0 satellites
[19:35] <Babs_> yes, valid checksum
[19:35] <SA6BSS> upu posted something about this some time ago, dont know if this is of interest https://github.com/HABduino/HABduino/blob/master/Software/habduino/habduino.ino#L446-L468
[19:36] <adamgreig> if you're reading in a valid pvt message with a good checksum then it doesn't seem like other messages are the problem here
[19:37] <adamgreig> maybe get a good dump of the message on a serial port to your computer and check every field for anything untoward, or plug the gps into u-center if you can and you can poke its configuration from the GUI which can be revealing
[19:37] <Babs_> thats the next step i think, i will keep you posted
[19:38] <adamgreig> certainly on my max-m8 the pvt message worked as expected and disabling those strings was enough
[19:38] <adamgreig> so don't think there should be any particular gotchas
[19:43] <Babs_> ok thanks
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[19:54] Action: Devilholk had a partion success
[19:54] <Devilholk> partial
[19:55] <Devilholk> But my balloon descended when it got cold and hovered outside someone window, shining a blue LED in there
[19:55] <Devilholk> On top floor so I couldn't do anything about it
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[20:00] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PI_SKY_PLUS - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=PI_SKY_PLUS
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[21:01] <ike> can you tell me if this is true about Semtech LoRa: http://e2e.ti.com/support/wireless_connectivity/f/156/t/343273.aspx
[21:01] <ike> is this PR talk
[21:01] <ike> or it's true
[21:02] <ike> so they say that with LoRa you have 18bps and if there is noise you loose that packet
[21:03] <ike> thay say: very weak co-existence performance
[21:03] <ike> so if there is any meteostation at 433 you will not get any packets
[21:04] <ike> they say: LoRa spread the signal information over a wide bandwidth (500 kHz), but will be jammed by any other system operating in this bandwidth
[21:04] <ike> is it true?
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[21:07] <Laurenceb_> lolwut
[21:08] <Laurenceb_> trolling instruments
[21:09] <Laurenceb_> 18 bps (yes, 18 bits per second), which is not a usable rate for any application
[21:09] <Laurenceb_> lulwut
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[21:10] <Laurenceb_> fine for a position every 15 seconds
[21:12] <daveake> Posted by TI employee
[21:12] <daveake> Well well
[21:13] <Laurenceb_> i think your results count as "real world"
[21:15] <ike> daveake this is TI forum with TI employee in it
[21:15] <daveake> Yes I know
[21:16] <ike> and 18 bps is verry slow, except for balloons. Imagine if you had a rocket or a plane with 18 bps telemetry
[21:17] <daveake> Not quite sure what you're saying here
[21:17] <Laurenceb_> "not a usable rate for any application"
[21:17] <daveake> I've used it at approx 50 baud and 1400 baud (SSDV) and both worked very well
[21:18] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:18] <daveake> fsphil picked up packets from (iirc) well over 300km away
[21:18] <Laurenceb_> the 1400 outperformed RTTY
[21:18] <daveake> I'd say that it works
[21:19] <daveake> Well .... for RTTY I was carefully pointing yagis; for LoRa I had a handheld receiver with tiddly aerial horizontal on the (outside) bench
[21:19] <daveake> Latter worked better than former
[21:19] <ike> so 168 dBm link budget at 18bps is good?
[21:20] <daveake> I've not tried that slow, and don't see the need either
[21:20] <ike> you will get 2-3db
[21:20] Action: SpacenearUS is going for a nap.
[21:20] Action: SpacenearUS is back!
[21:20] <ike> this is like going from 5W to 10W
[21:21] <daveake> I still don't see the need
[21:24] <ike> can you decode SX1276 with RTL SDR dongle?
[21:26] <daveake> no
[21:26] <tweetBot> @aiqy65: #ukhas http://t.co/ICcweSi1W6 websdr now has a HAB amp and dongle/band for HAB tracking. Impressed with the habamp.
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> unless...
[21:27] <Laurenceb_> someone made an opensource LORA decoder
[21:27] <daveake> that would be good
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[21:29] <Laurenceb_> well we know its chirp modulated with some sort of convolutional FEC
[21:36] <ike> you know that samknows are giving routers
[21:36] <ike> how cheap can you make receiving station
[21:36] <ike> to give to friends and relatives
[21:37] <ike> to hook to their router and have reveiver across the globe
[21:39] <Reb-SM0ULC> godd evening
[21:39] <qyx_> arm ethernet thing can be made for ~15e in single pieces
[21:39] <ike> qyx_ there are 3$ wifi to serial modules
[21:40] <ike> so you can use wifi to router
[21:40] <qyx_> you still need cpu + receiver
[21:40] <qyx_> or
[21:40] <qyx_> those esp modules with embedded arm
[21:41] <ike> they have 32bit mcu, but it's not arm
[21:42] <qyx_> hm, why did i automatically assume arm
[21:42] <qyx_> ok, whatever
[21:43] <ike> SI4432 SPI modules are getting cheaper and cheaper now that SI4432 is discontinued
[21:44] <daveake> You don't need much ... anything that can talk SPI and pass the data on. I have 3 types of LoRa receiver - a Pi gateway, an AVR with bluetooth link to a phone, and an AVR handheld thing with an LCD
[21:48] <Reb-SM0ULC> wasn't there a project for decoding LoRa?
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[21:56] <Laurenceb_> samknows?
[21:58] <ike> yes sam know what are you doing
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> shit
[21:58] <ike> and they give you 100$ routers to find you
[21:58] <Laurenceb_> creepy bastard
[21:58] <ike> daveake how hard is to make this http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-ESP8266-ESP-03-Serial-WIFI-Module-Wireless-Transceiver-Send-Receive-NEW-/381064428094?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58b935ba3e
[21:59] <ike> with this http://www.ebay.com/itm/HM-TRP-Wireless-Transceiver-433Mhz-915Mhz-LoRa-UART-easy-for-assembly-/261633369099?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item3cea90640b
[21:59] <Laurenceb_> huh
[21:59] <ike> as receiving station
[21:59] <ike> and you will need 5V 1A usb charger for 0.99$
[22:01] <ike> BOM is $1 + $9 + $3 = $11 for LoRa receiving station that can be put in the atic close to 220V outlet and in range of home router
[22:01] <daveake> The key thing, if you're going to buy something that interfaces to the lora chip for you, is if it allows full access to all the lora registers or not
[22:02] <daveake> And if you put a 99c mains charger in the loft I hope you have good fire insurance
[22:02] <daveake> these things are cheap for a reason
[22:02] <ike> daveake those ESP8266 have GPIO pins broken out so you can talk to LoRa receiver
[22:03] <ike> most people have 5V old charger anyway
[22:03] <ike> so this is not the issue
[22:03] <daveake> I think you misunderstand how to connect to lora
[22:03] <daveake> You need a processor with SPI
[22:04] <daveake> So you get those then you get a wifi module then you write some code
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[22:05] <ike> wifi module have 32 bit cpu inside
[22:05] <ike> and GCC compiler for it
[22:05] <ike> you don't need another mcu
[22:06] <daveake> have fun
[22:07] <daveake> Sounds like an interesting learning exercise, however if you value your time just get an AVR or something
[22:07] <daveake> Or connect the lora to a pi
[22:07] <ike> or 3000$ gaming PC
[22:08] <nats`> PC is a bad choice
[22:08] <nats`> it's always a pain in the **** to make hardware access on PC
[22:08] <nats`> I mean it's loss of tme to output simple spi or i2c
[22:08] <daveake> ike you're not making sense
[22:09] <ike> that is because you don't have 3000$ gaming PC
[22:09] <Lunar_Lander> balloon + PC = awesome?
[22:10] <daveake> I don't have any gaming PC. I don't have lots of things but most don't have anything to do with making a cheap lora gateway
[22:11] <ike> imagine if we need 1000 lora gateway across the world
[22:11] <ike> for R pi + lora module that is 60^
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> looking into hot-air soldering
[22:11] <ike> for R pi + lora module that is 60$
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> looks fun
[22:11] <ike> and this is 60 000$
[22:11] <tweetBot> @daveake: Pi-In-The-Sky gets APRS. Prototype tracker successfully uploading to aprs.fi #UKHAS http://t.co/x4UPLAnwRL
[22:13] <ike> with ESP8266 you can have 10$ lora gateway so this is 10 000 for 1000pcs
[22:13] <ike> and this way you got 40 000$ in profit
[22:13] <nats`> why are you talking about money
[22:14] <nats`> and why are you forgetting about the more important stuff in that businees non plan
[22:14] <daveake> ike always talks about money
[22:14] <nats`> assembly and pcb cost
[22:14] <nats`> I have no problem with that
[22:14] <nats`> but if you talk about money at least get it correct
[22:14] <nats`> I mean if you talk about money at least learn to count and make addition
[22:15] <ike> <nats`>why are you talking about money - why don't we have 1000 stations across the world that is because we don't have 60 000$
[22:15] <nats`> oO
[22:15] <nats`> in the direction it's exactly how you can make it for less
[22:16] <nats`> if you assume that in this field there are enough people able to use basic diy and assembly instruction
[22:16] <nats`> if you talk about profit you're talking about ready made product
[22:16] <nats`> choose your way the two are exactly opposed
[22:17] <nats`> the real question is you want to make a world network of amateur or you want to sell stuff
[22:18] <ike> I whant you to make lora gateways and send it to your firiends and familly
[22:18] <nats`> so don't talk about k$ talk about how easy it can be made
[22:18] <nats`> going for a RPi module (I hate RPi) is one of the easy way
[22:18] <mikestir> ike: don't forget about getting your esp8266-based device approved if you are going to sell it (good luck with that)
[22:19] <nats`> if you want to make a wifi module it's complicated
[22:19] <nats`> without talking about CE cert etc...
[22:19] <nats`> you need to give a way to total noob to configure the IP adress
[22:19] <qyx_> actually i like his idea
[22:19] <nats`> and trust me it's more complicated than copying a linux image on a SD card
[22:20] <mikestir> murata sn8200 - goes into access point mode so you can configure it to your lan using your phone, then it reboots as a station
[22:20] <Darkside> and you still havent thourhg much about decent antennas
[22:20] <mikestir> buy in one-off from mouser
[22:20] <mfa298> if you want to get something widespread put a design together that's easy for others to put together and opensource it.
[22:20] <Darkside> and coax for decent antennas
[22:20] <Darkside> that'll all add to the cost
[22:21] <nats`> Darkside and wanting people to put it in the right place
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[22:21] <nats`> other good struggle explain to a total noob with right on the gateway is not a good idea
[22:21] <nats`> or behind the TV
[22:21] <nats`> etc...
[22:21] <nats`> cost is often outside of the electronic hardware
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[22:30] <ike> the you can go to your friend's house and install it there yourself
[22:31] <nats`> oky so you need 10 of them so some hundre of $$ :)
[22:31] <nats`> not 40k :D
[22:32] <ike> 10 * 60 = 600 so for that price you can have 10pcs or 60pcs what do you preffer?
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[22:34] <nats`> what I can ?
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[22:36] <ike> nats` do you need more receiving stations?
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[22:37] <nats`> myself nop but seeing LORA perf 10 station with good antenne and well placed you can cover all the Paris area
[22:38] <nats`> and I talk about omni antenna
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[22:39] <nats`> daveake you played with the 1276 ?
[22:40] <Upu> Semtec ?
[22:40] <ike> nats` if you are in paris can you use tower there as an omni antenna?
[22:40] <daveake> once or twice
[22:41] <nats`> do you know if it's possible to use the two rf path on the High or low band ?
[22:41] <nats`> I mean the two pll are able to do every freq or the LOW Freq one is only for 100MHz band ?
[22:42] <daveake> not tried the low band
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[23:08] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03PEAKSKY after 0312 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=PEAKSKY
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[23:09] <fsphil> just me that gets all excited when spacenear reports a new position, then disappointed when it's not B-64? :)
[23:10] <daveake> no :/
[23:12] <arko> i feel ya
[23:15] <SpacenearUS> No new position from B-64 after almost 10 years silence - http://habhub.org/mt/?focusintensely=B-64_PLEASE
[23:15] <ulfr> Isn't that a bit over-exaggerated?
[23:19] <Reb-SM0ULC> well, one wonder what Leo has been working on while they have been flying
[23:19] <qyx_> the map looks too empty
[23:19] <arko> wonder where he is
[23:21] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SPARK - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=SPARK
[23:26] <ulfr> Or perhaps someone is traveling at the speed of light?
[23:27] <ulfr> (or near a very massive gravitational force)
[23:27] <Lunar_LanderA> Leo is a star!
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[23:38] <Lunar_LanderA> good night
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[00:00] --- Sun Nov 30 2014