highaltitude.log.20141127

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[02:02] <Laurenceb_> anyone here familiar with windows networking using samba from linux?
[02:03] <Laurenceb_> ive got some seriously weird shit going on
[02:03] <Laurenceb_> ls -l /media/windowsshare
[02:03] <Laurenceb_> d????????? ? ? ? ? ? windowsshare
[02:03] <Laurenceb_> ^means server is down?
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[02:15] <Ian_> Sprry Laurenceb. it was a loooong time ago. Power was put off in the machine room and when it came back up the Linux box realised that the DNX server had been moved to a different host thirteen months previously. Don'tcha love good uptime.
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[05:01] <Oddstr13> man, I wish I had multiple sdr dongles right now
[05:06] <Oddstr13> awesome, receiving broadcast fm with my Pi :3
[05:06] <Oddstr13> I guess that means it's working
[05:27] <Oddstr13> rtl_tcp and gqrx dosn't seem to like me particulary much tho
[06:29] <Maxell> rtl_tcp is a bit iffy and you might not have suffcient bandwidth to send down the complete stream of information
[06:29] <Maxell> try lowering samplerate with rtl_tcp
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[07:33] Nick change: day- -> day
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[08:11] <mfa298> Oddstr13: if you're after a known radio station / frequency you could look at rtm_fm - that works nicely on the pi.
[08:13] <Oddstr13> Maxell: bandwith shouldn't be an issue, connection was wired LAN
[08:13] <Oddstr13> I did however only observe noise in gqrx
[08:13] <Oddstr13> changing frequency didn't seem to work either
[08:14] <Oddstr13> mfa298: local powerfull station worked fine with rtl_fm
[08:17] <Oddstr13> the Pi froze when i killed it once tho, and I'm kinda tired, so i just unplugged the Pi and kinda called it a night :P
[08:17] Action: Oddstr13 needs to stop chatting, and go sleep
[08:18] <mfa298> when I played last I had to reboot the pi between times as the audio device seemed to lock up.
[08:18] <mfa298> next time I play with it I might use a fifo so rtl_fm can be restarted without having to restart aplay
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[08:27] Action: SpacenearUS is going for a nap.
[08:27] Action: SpacenearUS is back!
[08:28] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AETH31-1 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=AETH31-1
[08:30] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03AETH31-8 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=AETH31-8
[08:32] <fsphil> Oddstr13: the Pi's USB bus is pretty weak, and shared with the ethernet chip. that's your main bottleneck
[08:34] <fsphil> I wasn't able to get rtl_sdr streaming reliably over it
[08:34] <fsphil> rtl_tcp even
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[09:03] <DanHodder> I am looking for help regarding the releasing of a high altitude balloon and camera for a school event in February. I am a teacher in a school in South Somerset and wondered if anyone would be happy to provide their contact details to act as an adviser. I have a small staff of 3 and a budget of around £1000-1500. We are starting we no previous knowledge and would really appreciate some guidance beyond the instructions given
[09:09] <lz1dev> hi DanHodder
[09:09] <DanHodder> Hi
[09:09] <lz1dev> are you looking for a ready made solution
[09:10] <amell> somerset? your best bet is probably daveake
[09:10] <lz1dev> or do you want to get involved in building process of a tracker
[09:10] <DanHodder> Either - we have a DT department and a budget to build but a ready made solution would deal with a good number of our issues
[09:11] <amell> DanHodder: daveake is in Ross - I think hes the closest expert
[09:12] <daveake> "expert" :/
[09:12] <lz1dev> :D
[09:12] <amell> lol
[09:12] <DanHodder> What is the best way of making contact?
[09:12] <daveake> erm you just did :)
[09:12] <daveake> daveake@gmail.com
[09:12] <DanHodder> Thanks very kind
[09:13] <amell> Ill take commission for the introduction lol
[09:13] <DanHodder> Do excuse me for a moment a student has come into my office -
[09:13] <daveake> I'll pay you a complement
[09:14] <lz1dev> a 'complement'
[09:15] <amell> I think thats complementary to compliment
[09:15] <lz1dev> im sure he can write your name on the balloon
[09:15] <DanHodder> sorry I am back
[09:16] <amell> What age range are the students?
[09:16] <DanHodder> David if your happy I will speak to my team and contact you next week with some questions.
[09:16] <DanHodder> 13-18
[09:16] <daveake> sure no problem
[09:17] <amell> oh, you should be able to do something really educational then.
[09:17] <daveake> have a think about what you want to achieve and what you can do yourselves, in what timeframe
[09:17] <daveake> more you do the better
[09:18] <DanHodder> I argee
[09:18] <DanHodder> We would love to hand as much over to the students as possible
[09:18] <amell> daveake is the man with lots of gas.
[09:19] <daveake> it's not the amount it's the type
[09:19] <amell> true
[09:20] <mfa298> DanHodder: it may also be worth talking to Southampton Uni Space Flight (SUSF) as they've done things with schools in the past
[09:20] <DanHodder> Mfa298 thank you I was not aware of that I will have a look and try and make contact
[09:21] <mfa298> a few of them are usually around in here
[09:21] <DanHodder> I need to make a move to my next lesson. I am very grateful to everyone here for their help. My e-mail address is djh@kingsbruton.com (David - if your happy I will contact you next week) Thanks so much again!
[09:21] <daveake> np
[09:22] <DanHodder> Thank you!
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[09:37] <Jake__> cmdccma
[09:38] <Jake__> Hi guys, i am looking to launch a high altitude balloon. I live in the UK, and I have a few questions about frequencies and data formats if anyone is avaliable to answer
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[09:40] <fsphil> fire away Jake__
[09:42] <Jake__> well first off, i was wondering if there are any Ofcom regulations as to how often i can transmit at 434.075MHz. We have sensors on board that will record data throughout the flight, but are there any limitations as to how often that data can be transmitted to ground?
[09:42] <SpeedEvil> Jake__: first - what bitrate?
[09:42] <SpeedEvil> Jake__: do you have a lot of sensors that you need to get data back promptly from?
[09:42] <SpeedEvil> Or is recovery on the ground OK
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[09:43] <SpeedEvil> we have a pretty decent predictor that will let you recover it essentially all the time, barring accients, if you launch on the right day
[09:43] <Jake__> well in order to meet our flight requirements we need to transmit in the air and not jsut upon recovery.
[09:43] <daveake> On 075 you can tx all the time, at 10mW max erp
[09:43] <gonzo_> there is a lot of info on the UKHAS site. If anyone has the link handy
[09:43] <SpeedEvil> Jake__: well - yes
[09:44] <SpeedEvil> Jake__: but I mean - can you for example fit this into 50, or 300bps or will you need 100000
[09:44] <SpeedEvil> http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/ - tracker for balloons broadcasting
[09:44] <SpeedEvil> http://predict.habhub.org/ landing predictor
[09:45] <Jake__> im not sure :D i think each packet we need to transmit will be about 300KB
[09:45] <Jake__> but not sure what it is in bits
[09:45] <SpeedEvil> Ok - you're not doing that at all
[09:45] <SpeedEvil> the bandwidth, power, and antenna size requirements mean it's basically impractical
[09:45] <fsphil> 300 * 8 in bits
[09:46] <fsphil> well for rtty it's 300 * 11
[09:46] <SpeedEvil> Well - maybe once per flight of several hours
[09:46] <fsphil> at 300 baud it takes about 10 seconds to transmit 0.25KB
[09:46] <SpeedEvil> live non-postage stamp pictures are basically a non-starter
[09:46] <SpeedEvil> without very significant investment in the UK
[09:47] <fsphil> there are data modems that can run faster, but they're still a bit experimental
[09:47] <SpeedEvil> And they may not be legal
[09:48] <SpeedEvil> Airborne use is severely restricted over what's legal for radio hams on the ground - it basically doesn't apply
[09:50] <Jake__> ok, so all this stuff is brand new to me. We are measuring roughly 5 different parameters twice a second, and ive been told i need to transmit on a 10% duty cycle but im a little lost as to what all that means
[09:50] <gonzo_> it's 300bd / (8 bits plus framing). So the max sensible rate is 30bytes per second
[09:51] <gonzo_> on 434mhz there is no duty cycle limit
[09:51] <daveake> Unless he needs high bandwidth, which he does
[09:51] <SpeedEvil> Jake__: '5 different parameters twice a second' - is not 300KB
[09:51] <SpeedEvil> Unless you mean over the whole flight, or images
[09:52] <Jake__> well its a 4 hour flight and it will be measuring 1300 sample points
[09:52] <amell> http://spaceflightnow.com/2014/11/26/spacex-hopes-to-recover-rocket-intact-after-next-launch/ - incredible.
[09:52] <Jake__> i apologize for my lack of knowledge
[09:52] <amell> never seen hypersonic grid fins before.
[09:53] <SpeedEvil> Jake__: how many bytes - total - are the measurements for one point packed into?
[09:55] <edmoore> amell, do you have a setting other than hyperbole?
[09:56] <edmoore> and if so could you switch down to it?
[09:56] <amell> edmoore: eh?
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[09:56] <SpeedEvil> It's hardly hyperbole if he's never seen grid fins before
[09:57] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right - you meant the incredible.
[09:57] <edmoore> exactly
[09:57] <edmoore> it's completely credible
[09:57] <SpeedEvil> I'd say it qualifies as at least pretty awesome.
[09:57] <amell> i do find landing a rocket from space onto a gps controlled barge quite audacious.
[09:57] <SpeedEvil> Or incredible-for-NASA
[09:58] <edmoore> it's more a sad reflection of how space-launch has been dominated by ICBMs and military contractors for many decades too long
[09:58] <Jake__> well that would obviously depend how often i transmitted which i am unsure on also. would 50 bytes per second be unreasonable?
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[09:59] <edmoore> 50 bits (not bytes) per second is normal, though 50 bytes per second is also possible
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[09:59] Nick change: spacetoday_ -> spacetoday
[10:01] <Jake__> bits* i apologize
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[10:02] <edmoore> 50bps is standard
[10:02] <edmoore> v achieveable
[10:02] <Jake__> would it be feasible to transmit every 10 minutes or so? or would the packets then be too large?
[10:03] <Jake__> we would be looking at 30000bits
[10:03] <edmoore> i'm not really sure what you mean by feasible
[10:04] <edmoore> it's possible of course
[10:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03MickUk_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=MickUk_chase
[10:04] <edmoore> (10 minutes * 60 seconds) / (30kbits / 50baud) = 1
[10:05] <edmoore> so yes, you can transmit 30000bits in 10 minutes at 50 baud
[10:05] <edmoore> but if you're proposing doing it all as one message with a single checksum, you hugely increase the chance of a failed message
[10:06] <edmoore> as a single bit flip will invalidate the checksum
[10:06] <Jake__> we are hoping to store all the data in non-volatile memory to recover at the end and then transmit at a regular rate and retransmit if there are issues.
[10:07] <edmoore> how will you know if there's an issue?
[10:07] <edmoore> and storing all the data onboard is fine
[10:07] <Jake__> say if one of the readings doesnt come through?
[10:07] <edmoore> yes but how will your payload know to retransmit a message if you don't receive it correctly?
[10:09] <Jake__> good question. does the SDR# package have the ability to transmit as well as receive? if there were a receiver of the payload.
[10:09] <edmoore> i think your level of understanding of all this is not yet at the stage where you could be confident of getting reliable uplinks to the balloon
[10:10] <Jake__> i agree. unfortunately it's a university project so i kind of have to ha!
[10:10] <edmoore> so it's a requirement that you have an uplink aswell as a downlink to the balloon?
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[10:14] <JackD> Hi, I have a few questions about low power transceivers that connect to a micro controller, I wondered if someone could help?
[10:14] <edmoore> JackD, IRC etiquette is to not ask to ask a question
[10:14] <edmoore> or ask someone to pre-emptively enter into a contract with you to help you
[10:14] <edmoore> instead, just ask the question
[10:14] <edmoore> if someone wants to answer, they will
[10:14] <edmoore> also, welcome to #highaltitude
[10:15] <craag> (there's 183 of us here, so it's likely someone will)
[10:16] <edmoore> fewer than that craaq when you subtract the non-human ones
[10:16] <nats`> Am I human ?
[10:16] <nats`> goos question I'll go to §##philosphy
[10:16] <nats`> :D
[10:16] <spacetoday> it's all a simulation anyway
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[10:16] <Jake__> i apologize edmoore i just read over the requirements and it doesnt seem i need an uplink
[10:17] <nats`> spacetoday I hope we run on ltspice !
[10:17] <fsphil> that makes things much simpler
[10:17] <edmoore> ok Jake__
[10:17] <edmoore> so
[10:17] <edmoore> to a first approximation, here is a known-good recipe for hab flights
[10:17] <JackD> Apologies, thanks for the welcome. It is stated on the data sheet of the 10 mW transceiver i have selected that it has a data transfer rate of 10 kbps, i am aiming to send a balloon to 11km, I have estimated that the packets of data i am intending to send back to ground (frequently) are around 1kb, does this infer that for a 10% duty cycle i would be aiming to send data around once a second for 0.1 seconds?
[10:17] <edmoore> send a message about once every 10 seconds at 50-baud rtty
[10:18] <edmoore> the message should contain lat,lon,alt, time, a few sensor values, and a checksum, other stuff if you need
[10:18] <edmoore> use that priary for tracking and housekeeping
[10:18] <edmoore> if you have a particularly high bandwidth data downlink requirment, consider a separate radio module on a separate freq just for data
[10:18] <edmoore> however, if you can store it all onboard on an sd card, much easier - we used to do that
[10:19] <edmoore> and if you can make it fit in your once-per-10s housekeeping message too, so much the better
[10:19] <fsphil> if your sensor data is small then do both, transmit and store
[10:19] <edmoore> exactly
[10:19] <edmoore> if you can make that recipe work for you, I would go with that as a low-risk path
[10:19] <edmoore> but it sounds like you need to write yourself a list of requirements first
[10:19] <craag> JackD: You need to think about RF link budget. I can guarantee that you won't get 10kbps back from a HAB at 10mW (at least not without a radio-astronomy dish).
[10:20] <gonzo_> (ed means, that you transmit 50bd continuously, with the packets being roughly 10sec long)
[10:20] <edmoore> JackD, 10kbps is with lots of assumptions about range and antenna gain. these are not valid for hab. we tend to drop the baud rate much lower, to 50 or 300bps
[10:21] <craag> JackD: This why, as edmoore is explaining, we use 50 baud rtty to guarantee reception of vital data (position, battery level), and then you could add a higher rate, less vital datalink alongside.
[10:21] <edmoore> you need to define 'frequently' with a number, as adjectives have no place in engineering when you're actually designing something
[10:21] <edmoore> precisely how often do you wish to send 1kb, and we can work from that to see if these modules will work for you
[10:22] <JackD> I was intending to send the data once every 2 seconds
[10:23] <edmoore> ok, so thats 500 bits per second
[10:23] <edmoore> that's doable but towards the upper end of what is typically used as a downlink rate
[10:24] <gonzo_> (also there is the need to question whate data is actually required. If a big data block from an instrument only contains a tiny amout of data. Sending anything more than the actual data is very wasteful of your downlink)
[10:24] <mfa298> Jake__: depending on where you are in the UK it might be worth tracking someone elses flight fairly soon - and possibly see if you can go along for the launch and chase.
[10:24] <gonzo_> Jake__ and JackD, are you both working on the same project??
[10:25] <craag> Looks like from their IPs</stalker>
[10:25] <gonzo_> I had the feeling of De Ja vue
[10:25] <edmoore> which is to say, is this a university project for both of you and which university?
[10:27] <mfa298> at a guess Manchester Uni (/me follows craag's lead)
[10:30] <edmoore> stunned silence
[10:34] <JackD> no, our IPs are visibile as we indeed at uni haha, yes we are working on the same project and are novices
[10:35] <edmoore> cool
[10:35] <edmoore> so, what's your specialism?
[10:35] <JackD> aerospace, but we have never been taught anything about radio communication, and research has proved difficult
[10:35] <edmoore> like, if you have done some information theory or comms then you don't need us telling you to use 50 baud because that's patronising guff and you can work out that you can do 10kbps with the right error correcting codes
[10:36] <edmoore> however, it can all be black magic if you've not done comms stuff before
[10:36] <edmoore> in which case, stick with the 50-baud thing
[10:36] <JackD> what is baud?
[10:36] <edmoore> 1 baud = 1 symbol per second
[10:37] <edmoore> a symbol is not a bit although it is in the specific case of being only able to send 2 things
[10:37] <edmoore> so for example
[10:37] <edmoore> you might send one frequency to send a 0 and a slightly higher one to send a 1
[10:37] <edmoore> and toggle between those two frequencies
[10:37] <edmoore> in that case, one symbol = 1 bit
[10:37] <edmoore> but instead imagine you might send any one of 4 frequencies
[10:37] <edmoore> freq 1 = 00
[10:38] <edmoore> freq 2 = 01
[10:38] <edmoore> freq 3 = 10
[10:38] <edmoore> freq 4 = 11
[10:38] <edmoore> in that case your bit rate is twice your symbol rate, because each symbol (one of the frequencies for a period of time) encodes 2 bits
[10:38] <edmoore> see thee difference?
[10:38] <JackD> i think we will require much more than that, we are taking data points twice a second and intend to send that information to the ground with atleast 10% duty is our requirement
[10:39] <edmoore> where is that requirement from
[10:39] <JackD> the project description
[10:40] <edmoore> this is sort of a trap question, i think i know where it's from and i think the person setting it has misunderstood the legislation
[10:40] <JackD> we are send a packet that might look like this <TeamID><Packet#><TIME><LAT><LON><ALT><PRESS><TEMP><SCI04X><SOL_FLUX><BATT_VOLT AGE><BATT_CURRENT><SYS_STATE><OPT_DATA><MD5>
[10:40] <edmoore> go to page 17 on here
[10:40] <edmoore> http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/spectrum/spectrum-policy-area/spectrum-management/research-guidelines-tech-info/interface-requirements/IR_2030.pdf
[10:40] <craag> You need to send battery voltage twice a second?
[10:41] <edmoore> the person specifying 10% has looked at IR2030/1/10
[10:41] <edmoore> but you can fly under IR2030/1/12
[10:41] <edmoore> 2 rows down
[10:41] <gonzo_> also, there is an existing community of receiving stations, geared up for the standard comms modes we use. Going for something new meands that you are on your own for receiving the downlink. So if the comms side is not the main thrust of the project, then it's safer sticking with tried and tested methods. As without comms, the whole flight will be wasted.
[10:41] <mfa298> JackD: the bits / symbols bit Ed mentioned is per frequency change, so if you switch frequency 50 times a second that gives you 50 bits per second for 1 symbol per bit, or 100bits per second for a 2 bit per symbol mode
[10:41] <edmoore> http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol
[10:42] <edmoore> what you have described can be happily done in a ukhas-compatible way ^
[10:42] <jonsowman> md5 might be suboptimal for a 50 baud link
[10:43] <craag> Data points from one or two sensors twice a second could be done be efficiently packing several seconds of bits into longer, ukhas-compatible packets.
[10:45] <edmoore> yes - sending a whole string once per 2hz sample is not going to be the best thing
[10:45] <edmoore> and i agree with jonsowman on md5
[10:46] <edmoore> 128bits of a checksum is rather sledgehammering the nut when your message is not that long by computer-file standards
[10:46] <edmoore> if you follow that link i gave you above, you can see a much simpler checksum which we use as standard
[10:49] <gonzo_> and multiple receioving sites will greatly increase the chance of someone getting a good packet, so you can ease up on the error correction
[10:49] <edmoore> greatly
[10:53] <mattbrejza> 'at least' 10% seems a little odd, sure they didnt mean 'at most'?
[10:55] <JackD> im thinking that mattbrejza, i think the requirements are poorly worded, and the atual intention is for it to transmit more than once every ten minuites
[10:56] <edmoore> can you just post the requirements
[10:56] <edmoore> respectfully, getting them after they've been convolved with students new to hab is a little hard to work with
[10:57] <edmoore> (I do mean that respectfully, it gets no easier after graduation, i have much smarter engineers than me getting annoyed when my lack of knowledge of x prevents me explaining a problem properly to them)
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[10:58] <mattbrejza> so yea just transmit all the time
[10:58] <mattbrejza> seems a little odd
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[10:59] <mattbrejza> is there much more to this project? making some electronics and sticking it in a box seems a more suitable project for electronic engineers not aerospace ones
[11:00] <edmoore> indeed
[11:00] <edmoore> maybe it's a comfort-zone (throwing out thereof) project
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[11:01] <JackD> the project is to make a HAB and recover it, record certain data during flight and thats it
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[11:01] <edmoore> ok, i'd recommend logging the data onboard too
[11:01] <Jake__> not really much aerospace about it tbh. welcome to education.
[11:02] <edmoore> that's very much easier for arbitrarily-high bandwidths
[11:02] <JackD> we are doing that also
[11:02] <edmoore> rather than getting too much in a pickle of data rates over radio
[11:02] <edmoore> Jake__, i was in your shoes 4 years ago. i'm going to pretend it gets better
[11:02] <edmoore> also for your sake
[11:03] <JackD> i think i understand a bit better, we are required to send the information the sensors are recording, incase we cannot recover the system
[11:03] <edmoore> (it actually does get better but only strongly as a function of choosing career wisely)
[11:03] <JackD> if i wish to send all new recorded data since the last transmission once every 5 seconds
[11:04] <edmoore> so how many bits of data do you wish to send every 5 seconds?
[11:04] <JackD> then the data rate of the transceiver needs to be atleast 2 kbps if we are to send 10 kb of data
[11:04] <edmoore> ignoring the callsigns and lats and lon and stuff, i mean how many bits is it when you add up all the sensors, their sample rates and resolutions
[11:04] <mfa298> It's probably worth having a good read of the wiki and see what people currently do, if it doesn't quite meet the specs you've got to acheive it could be worth talking to the person setting the specs with well reasoned arguments to make slight adjustments (e.g. differing checksum, slightly different format of data, continuous tx etc)
[11:05] <edmoore> how do you arrive at 10kb in 5s, is really my question
[11:05] <JackD> i estimated that each packet is 1 kb
[11:05] <edmoore> how did you estimate that
[11:05] <JackD> and the sensors record twice a seconds
[11:06] <JackD> using an online string calculator
[11:06] <edmoore> ?
[11:07] <mattbrejza> onlinehabtelemetrycalculator.com
[11:07] <edmoore> so like, 1000 bits / 8b-char = 125 characters?
[11:07] <JackD> yeah
[11:07] <edmoore> ok
[11:07] <edmoore> you might consider not sending your sensor data in plaintext
[11:07] <edmoore> what i'd start with is something like this
[11:08] Action: mfa298 wonders how much of that 125 chars is checksum
[11:08] <edmoore> for example: I have one 16 bit pressure sensor twice per sec - 32bits/sec, 160bits/5s
[11:08] <edmoore> i have one 8 bit battery voltage sensor twice per sec - 16bits/sec
[11:08] <edmoore> etc
[11:09] <edmoore> and basically calculate the total amount of information per second / per 5 seconds
[11:09] <edmoore> then start thinking about how to encode it
[11:09] <edmoore> and also sampling things like battery voltage twice per second is much more than necessary
[11:48] <amell> need to get into a raspberry pi which is not on the network, Mac USB keyboard doesnt work - dont have a powered USB hub. any clever ideas?
[11:49] <mfa298> buy a different usb keyboard
[11:49] <edmoore> there's a serial port
[11:49] <mfa298> or if you have a 3.3v rs232 cable connect to the uart
[11:49] <edmoore> on the gpio header
[11:49] <amell> yeah, was hoping to not have to go and buy a new keyboard
[11:49] <amell> i just needs to set the iP address on it.
[11:50] <amell> Hmm. does that give console output?
[11:50] <mfa298> they're set to do dhcp by default
[11:50] <mfa298> so you should only need to plug it into the network
[11:50] <amell> yes, it seems to boot up to a blue screen with options
[11:51] <edmoore> job's a good'n
[11:52] <amell> justc hecked, it boots into raspi-config
[11:53] <amell> would it typically have got an ip address by that point, as ive scanned the subnet and its not appearing
[11:54] <craag> yes it should have
[11:54] <craag> can you look at the leases on your dhcp server?
[11:55] <amell> thanks, i will check wiring first, as its not picking up a lease
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[12:05] <amell> 1
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[12:06] <pc1pcl-qrl> amell: as alternative to buying another keyboard, maybe just borrow one from a 'neighbour'?
[12:06] <amell> its ok, i am in now.
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[12:07] <prog> I'd have quoted "borrow"
[12:09] Action: mfa298 has several spare keyboards for that scenario. (I even have a couple of PS/2 keyboards and a PS/2 -> AT adapter)
[12:11] <pc1pcl-qrl> yeah, I also have a lot of those as spares, and they come in handy now and then, but I guess if you don't, it wouldn't be too hard to find someone that had either a spare, or one they could do without for a short while..
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[12:26] <nats`> someone bought all the sx1272 from digikey :\
[12:43] <SpeedEvil> http://www.alibaba.com/trade/search?fsb=y&IndexArea=product_en&CatId=&SearchText=sx1272
[12:44] <SpeedEvil> http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Wholesale-New-and-Original-IC-SX1272_60041590546.html in all sorts of packages
[12:44] <mattbrejza> seems legit
[12:46] <nats`> :p
[12:46] <nats`> I never bought anything on alibaba
[12:47] <SpeedEvil> I got quotes for lithium
[12:47] <SpeedEvil> but haven't followed through, as I can't work out how to make my battery not explode
[12:48] <nats`> maybe I could take the risk for few chip
[12:49] <mattbrejza> im having trouble getting legit ones working, hate to think that those alibaba ones are like
[12:50] <mattbrejza> well its hoperf's rebanded one, but still
[12:51] <nats`> mattbrejza I wonder why semtech has a so closed distribution network
[12:52] <mattbrejza> dont ask me :P
[12:55] <nats`> alibaba is so "I'm a nigerian king and I need your help with western union"
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> nats`: yeah - but when I can buy 2kg lithium for the price that local chemical suppliers want for 20 grams...
[12:56] <nats`> yep SpeedEvil I know what it feels :)
[12:57] <nats`> I'll send a mail and get a quote for some piece
[12:57] <nats`> I'll see if they are brick
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> http://www.scaffolding-direct.co.uk/alloy-tube-48-3mm-x-6m-length-for-tube-clamps-and-scaffolding.aspx is actually comparable with china
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> - but shipping is annoying
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> Amusingly, new aluminium poles are cheaper than used steel - because of the shipping
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[13:21] <Laurenceb_> anyone here any good with samba and windows networks?
[13:21] <Laurenceb_> ive been struggling for a few days with weirdness :-/
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[13:57] <Ian_> I was intrigued that the cattle weren't overly distressed by the Spacex booster testing a few hundred metres from them, as seen in the video earlier.
[13:58] <adamgreig> that is surprising. i've always found cattle very interested in smaller rockets
[13:58] <Ian_> The problem with Ali Baba, the Chinese version of ebay is that with a lot of stuff being FOB then it's only half of the solution and the gap is rather large. Not aimed at consumers it seems.
[13:59] <Ian_> It seems that larger rockets are just as intriguing, as when the booster returned the cattle aren't running away, but seem to be coming for a look see.
[14:00] <adamgreig> aliexpress is more consumer level
[14:03] <Ian_> I hadn't previously made the distinction in my mind between Ali Baba and Aliexpress, so thanks for the heads up on that adamgreig. I take it that with Paypal payments the protection is loosely similar to ebay also.
[14:04] <mfa298> aliexpress claims to provide similar protectons to ebay.
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[14:05] <adamgreig> yea aliexpress is a lot like ebay
[14:05] <adamgreig> alibaba is not really for consumers. like you say, fob makes it a lot harder
[14:05] <mfa298> I think they withhold monies going to the seller until you confirm the product has arrived (or a deadline is reached and you've not indicated theres a problem)
[14:05] <adamgreig> many ali baba sellers will organise freight for you, but it's not cheap :P
[14:07] <Ian_> I was interested in a min order of 25kg thymol a few years ago, but there were too many variables that I had difficulty in working out tax wise due to it being FOB Calcutta. I chickened out!
[14:12] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K6RPT-11 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=K6RPT-11
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[14:26] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03K6RPT-11 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=K6RPT-11
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[15:11] <marcosx86> hello
[15:11] <marcosx86> can anyone help me with a gps module?
[15:12] <marcosx86> i cant configure it, already searched about it =/
[15:13] <SpeedEvil> http://i.imgur.com/2Vslu5S.jpg
[15:15] <Ian_> I don't think that marcosx86 means that one SpeedEvil. Perhaps he will mention some useful detail that will help someone to give assistance
[15:16] <marcosx86> i have a ublox neo 6m module, tried to configure it using u-center thru a usb-serial converter with no success
[15:18] <craag> marcosx86: Have you checked you have tx/rx the right way round?
[15:18] <craag> ie tx->rx, rx->tx
[15:18] <marcosx86> yes, they are rx to tx and tx to rx
[15:19] <craag> Have you tried the other way round incase the labels are wrong?
[15:19] <marcosx86> when i connect like this to arduino, it only reads crap, tested on all baudrates
[15:19] <marcosx86> i have a mega 2560, used pins 10/11
[15:19] <marcosx86> i want to configure the module to speak NMEA, not UBX
[15:20] <marcosx86> yes craag
[15:20] <marcosx86> when I swap I get the obvious, no communication
[15:20] <craag> Ok
[15:21] <marcosx86> here is it: highaltitude
[15:21] <marcosx86> http://imgur.com/Gv8u3wq *
[15:22] <marcosx86> the second led blinks red after sometime, showing that probably it gets a 3d fix
[15:22] <craag> yep
[15:22] <daveake> Red wire for Rx and Grey for Vcc. That's novel.
[15:22] <UpuWork> WECLOM TO CHINA
[15:23] <marcosx86> UpuWork hahahahaha ;)
[15:24] <nats`> GND in yellow is my preferred
[15:24] <nats`> I'll do the same in my house
[15:24] <nats`> earth in brown
[15:24] <nats`> line in yellow
[15:24] <nats`> neutral in blue
[15:24] <nats`> let's kill the noob :D
[15:25] <marcosx86> at least it's a dettachable cable, we can fix swapping colors ;D
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[15:36] <Ian_> What is the default baudrate of the Ublox NEO-6M and is it 8bit no parity one stop?
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[15:37] <marcosx86> back on mobile
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[16:05] <day> Is B64 still going strong?
[16:06] <edmoore> oh whatever it is now
[16:06] <edmoore> i'm like five years out of date
[16:07] <day> lel i wasnt talking about the user
[16:07] <edmoore> no me neither
[16:07] <day> :"D
[16:07] <edmoore> i just can't remember the magic incantation for the other bot
[16:07] <x-f> !ping b-64
[16:07] <SpacenearUS> 03x-f: Last contact with 03B-64 was 034 days ago
[16:07] <edmoore> thanks x-f
[16:07] <x-f> np
[16:07] <x-f> Ian_, 9600 baud
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[17:28] <Ian_> !whereis b-64
[17:28] <SpacenearUS> 03Ian_: 03B-64 was over 03South, Iceland 10(64.1198,-19.0706) at 0312451 meters about 034 days ago
[17:28] <Ian_> Thanks x-f
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[18:34] <lcollins> I'm guessing this has probably been discussed a thousand times on here, but maybe someone can point me in the right direction. I'm trying to figure out what radio to use for a balloon and guided payload in the U.S.
[18:35] <lcollins> Is there a clear best choice? (Affordable, stays in range, doesn't require huge licensing effort, etc?)
[18:39] <fsphil> in the US the easiest method is probably with amateur radio (APRS)
[18:40] <lcollins> I was just seeing something along those lines in the archives
[18:40] <lcollins> I can do both tracking and general flight data status transmission that way?
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[18:43] <fsphil> yea an aprs packet can carry custom data
[18:43] <fsphil> you'd have to make or modify a transmitter though
[18:44] <lcollins> ok
[18:44] <lcollins> and we'd be at 144.xx MHz?
[18:45] <lcollins> sounds like some guys on here have suggested just going ahead and getting a HAM license
[18:46] <fsphil> they're not difficult to get and could always come in useful
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[18:49] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[18:50] <fsphil> howdy
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[18:53] <lcollins> is APRS sufficient for tracking without carrying GPS?
[18:54] <mfa298> if you don't have gps how will the payload know where it is ?
[18:54] <Myself> you want to carry a GPS, trust me. The chips are so small, cheap, and light now, there's no reason not to.
[18:55] <lcollins> ok, makes sense
[18:55] <mfa298> it may be possible to direction find the radio signal, but for a short irregular transmission like aprs that's going to be challenging
[18:55] <lcollins> right
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[19:20] <fsphil> http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2014/november/ofcom_discuss_pocket_spacecraft.htm
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[19:45] <lz1dev> but why?
[19:45] <lz1dev> Its 2023 and Alice is a teenage girl out shopping to take her mind off her soon to be released exam results. Her smartphone beeps with a notification from her Pocket Mission Control app to say that there are just two hours before her personal spacecraft starts its run into the rings of Saturn.
[19:45] <lz1dev> what
[19:47] <mattbrejza> because their leo cubesat went so well, why not go to the moon next
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[19:54] <lz1dev> what purpose could these thin disk serve?
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[19:57] <Ian_> Great that they will be using 435MHz of course, but will their frequencies be subject to the same coordination arrangements as most amateur satellites have to date. Sounds like a lot of shrapnel in spaceto me.
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[19:57] <mattbrejza> ill be suprised if those panels can even power the transmitter
[19:57] <mattbrejza> theres no battery or anything
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[19:59] <lz1dev> its only 50um thick
[19:59] <Ian_> If they get into orbit they may fail on the technical front, but they will still be a source of more space junk. Seems like a lot of people will be watching the launch with interest and sticking pins into effigies of rockets . . .
[19:59] <edmoore> who is trying fororbit?
[20:00] <lz1dev> is rocket voodoo dolls a thing?
[20:00] <mattbrejza> radiation event v2
[20:00] <edmoore> i've come halfway into the conversation
[20:00] <mattbrejza> http://www.southgatearc.org/news/2014/november/ofcom_discuss_pocket_spacecraft.htm
[20:00] <lz1dev> it's basically calling a paper plane, a plane
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[20:01] <edmoore> ambitious
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[20:03] <Ian_> Wish them luck http://www.fredaldous.co.uk/hat-pins-15cms-gilt-10-pack.html?gclid=CjwKEAiAtNujBRDMmoCN46aB8noSJAC7SYv7k_reUY1FT9e-2hfDDpDUruk5fRALrIkVCpmSTfJdORoC3Fnw_wcB
[20:04] <Ian_> Get the kids at school to knit launch vehicles . . .
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[20:06] <Ian_> it's trivialising education and research satellites edmoore. You didn't come halfway into the conversation, you came into the conversation at the half way point :)
[20:07] <edmoore> i tend to only keep one foot in irc
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[20:08] <Ian_> Could it be that your life's work might be to launch Kickstart CDs into orbit - I shouldn't worry too much about the International Reply Coupons, the Post Office doesn't sell them any more :)
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[20:09] <Oddstr13> hysplit on the habitat dosn't take account of when it was last seen, right?
[20:09] <edmoore> i hope my life's work is not to that end
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[20:11] <kc2pit_> "The mothership will set off to the moon where, when it arrives many months later, the rest of the Pocket Spacecraft will be released, photographed and then land on the moon to complete the mission."
[20:11] <kc2pit_> Heh.
[20:12] <Oddstr13> if only B-64 was at that possition right now, it would have a chance of passing right over my head in like 30h ._.
[20:12] <kc2pit_> If, by "land on," you mean "lithobrake into from 1600 m/s."
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[20:12] <edmoore> how is it getting to the moon?
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> 'it's only a flesh wound'
[20:12] <edmoore> one does not simple... etc
[20:12] <edmoore> simply*
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[20:19] <Myself> kc2pit_: I wonder if they could employ some sort of electrostatic braking, given that the pocket wafer things are intended to be so thin. I've heard stuff about a haze of dust hovering around on the sunlit side of the moon for electrostatic reasons.
[20:22] <kc2pit_> edmoore: They're pretty clear that they plan for the cubesat mothership to hitch a ride. Stick out the old sub-etha thumb, I guess?
[20:23] <edmoore> i'd quite like to see a cubesat get itself into a lunar orbit
[20:23] <edmoore> that would be progress
[20:23] <kc2pit_> Me too. Screw the silly flakesats, but getting a cubesat into lunar orbit from LEO or GTO would be fun.
[20:24] <Myself> So how small can you make an ion thruster?
[20:24] <edmoore> quite small
[20:24] <Myself> Charge for a few days, thrust for a few seconds, omgbatteries, recharge...
[20:24] <edmoore> there are pulsed plasma thrusters too
[20:24] <kc2pit_> Yes, quite. Propellant management and little overhead things weigh heavier and heavier with smaller systems, though.
[20:24] <edmoore> i think you might die of boredom waiting for a cube to get to lunar with ion
[20:25] <edmoore> if not boredom, the electronics might die first
[20:25] <kc2pit_> Pulsed plasma thrusters suffer from tiny propellant loads, and non-that-great Isp as plasma goes.
[20:25] <Myself> I'm picturing an inkjet cartridge with a charged grid in front of the nozzles.
[20:25] <edmoore> there are a lot of high energy particles beyond the van-allen belts that cubesat tronics might dislike
[20:25] <edmoore> if you spend 6 months there instead of 3 days you might notice it
[20:26] <Myself> That sounds like a fun engineering challenge. Superconducting magnet halo shield?
[20:26] <edmoore> i'd probably just go chemical
[20:26] <edmoore> assuming you can do a 3 or 4U cubesat
[20:27] <kc2pit_> Chemical is viable if you can build lightly enough. The paperwork for high energy chemicals is arguably a bigger burden than any of the design or construction work, though.
[20:28] <edmoore> Yes, you'd have to have someone friendly on the inside to help get you a launch slot
[20:28] <edmoore> I do, thankfully
[20:28] <kc2pit_> Primary payloads don't like sitting next to amateur-built cans of kaboom, nor do the assembly workers like handling amateur-built cans of methylethyldeath.
[20:28] <bertrik> cryogenic fairy dust
[20:28] <edmoore> you'd go for storable propellants i'm sure
[20:29] <edmoore> cryogenic sounds logistically terrible on a cube
[20:29] <edmoore> the launch timings are all wrong, the volume to surface area on the tanks is all wrong
[20:29] <edmoore> and storables have enough ISP i think
[20:29] <kc2pit_> Cubesats tend to sit in a P-POD or similar for months at a time, unpowered and unmaintained, while the primary payload gets its crap sorted out.
[20:29] <edmoore> trans-lunar injection from LEO, assuming an isp of 230 (fair for mon/hydrazine in a vacuum) is about 66%
[20:30] <edmoore> sorry, the mass fraction required for TLI from LEO
[20:30] <edmoore> is about 66%
[20:30] <edmoore> that doesn't sound ludicrous
[20:30] <kc2pit_> That's what I figured you meant. Challenging, but not impossible.
[20:30] <edmoore> exactly
[20:30] <kc2pit_> But that's just translunar, not insertion.
[20:31] <edmoore> and there are launch slots where you can go from upper-stage integration to deployed reasonably quickly
[20:31] <Myself> it's not the fall that kills you, it's the inability to stop at the end
[20:31] <edmoore> sure, i wasn't planning on going to lunar orbit
[20:31] <edmoore> i'd be quite happy with just going round and coming back
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[20:32] <edmoore> or basically just getting the earthrise photo
[20:32] Action: Myself performs a quick burn to raise his apogee in the direction of his parents' house for a tryptophan-exchange mission
[20:32] <edmoore> you can pour youself the drink at that point
[20:33] <Myself> we'll have robots to pour our drinks by the time the ionjet gets there :)
[20:34] <Oddstr13> guys, you're making me kinda wana try out KSP again :P
[20:34] <edmoore> i've not played it
[20:35] <edmoore> but lots of people tell me about it
[20:35] <Oddstr13> I wish it had proper multiplayer
[20:35] <Oddstr13> I hear there are mods for multiplayer however, should check out those
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> KSP
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> still have to buy it :)
[20:42] <Myself> If you're in the US and thus doing nothing of consequence for the next day or two, it'd be a fine time to dive into KSP and blow some th^W^W^W get something to orbit
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[20:43] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[20:49] <fsphil> Lunar_Lander: free version: http://www.nowykurier.com/toys/gravity/gravity.html
[20:49] <fsphil> slightly poorer graphics
[20:53] <Lunar_Lander> NICE!
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[21:32] <Michemto> hey!
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> (to estonia?)
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[21:41] <Michemto> YEeees~!
[21:42] <Michemto> Lunar, if i have scanner... do I need a external antenna to receive 434mhz signals
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> ah in principle yes
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> I would recommend it
[21:47] <Lunar_Lander> without one, you can only receive something very close by
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[22:00] <arko> maybe he's on holiday with B-64
[22:02] <daveake> recharging his batteries
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> i think i solved battery woes
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> http://www.sionpower.com/pdf/articles/SionPowerECS.pdf
[22:02] <Laurenceb__> lithium sulphur
[22:03] <Laurenceb__> these guys seem to have products in the pipeline
[22:03] <Laurenceb__> http://www.oxisenergy.com/contact/
[22:04] <Michemto> lunar... what do you think, which would be decent antenna
[22:04] <mattbrejza> they seem to have cycling issues Laurenceb__ ?
[22:04] <Laurenceb__> huh?
[22:04] <Laurenceb__> which page
[22:04] <mattbrejza> 10
[22:05] <Laurenceb__> dunno how to interpret that
[22:05] <Laurenceb__> they have >3k cycles in earlier graphs
[22:05] <mattbrejza> and 7
[22:07] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[22:08] <Laurenceb__> ah no, 450 cycles
[22:08] <Laurenceb__> yeah not ideal
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[22:19] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: did you see the nature paper?
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> hmm
[22:20] <Lunar_Lander> for my scanner I have one of those simple metal rod antennas which you can pull out
[22:21] <Lunar_Lander> has a BNC at the end
[22:21] <Laurenceb__> SpeedEvil: no
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&hs=UsT&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&channel=fflb&q=%22space+station%22+%22pregnant+mice%22&oq=%22space+station%22+%22pregnant+mice%22&gs_l=serp.3...5392.10762.0.11081.31.23.0.0.0.0.437.3634.0j2j10j1j1.14.0.ekpsr...0...1.1.58.serp..22.9.2435.o0YOxiOFY5Y
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> err
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v515/n7528/full/nature13883.html
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> sleeccive coatings on glass
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> Passive radiative cooling below ambient air temperature under direct sunlight
[22:23] <Laurenceb__> interesting
[22:27] <Laurenceb__> yeah maybe longwave IR is the answer
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[22:28] <Laurenceb__> the thermal IR flux is greater than mean solar flux for most areas where a floater is likely to fly
[22:28] <Laurenceb__> apart from in January/February
[22:28] <Laurenceb__> 250 to 300W/m^2
[22:30] <Laurenceb__> just need a way to harvest it...
[22:32] <Laurenceb__> of course there is another solution... RTG :D
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[22:40] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: I've got a couple of smoke alarms you can have
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[22:49] Nick change: WillTablet -> FlerbTablet
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[23:07] <Laurenceb__> SpeedEvil is a boy scout?
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[23:29] <amell> !ping B-64
[23:29] <SpacenearUS> 03amell: Last contact with 03B-64 was 034 days ago
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[23:30] <fsphil> we'll B together again
[23:31] Action: amell is concerned about the number of deliveries hes expecting from Amazon
[23:32] Action: DL7AD is will waiting for a parcel for 3 days
[23:32] <DL7AD> *still
[23:35] Action: SpeedEvil is ordering bigger stuff.
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> http://www.scaffolding-direct.co.uk/alloy-tube-48-3mm-x-6m-length-for-tube-clamps-and-scaffolding.aspx
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> ~10kg
[23:36] <amell> why?
[23:36] <fsphil> hmmm good point. I'd better order stuff I need for over the holidays now
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[23:36] <fsphil> though I refuse to take part in this black friday bollocks
[23:36] <SpeedEvil> A rail along the top of my house to make installing tiles and insulation easier
[23:37] <amell> wouldnt it be easier to just hire it
[23:37] <SpeedEvil> amell: Due to reasons, I'm _extremely_ slow at doing crap
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> hiring doesn't work
[23:38] <amell> actually, this stuff is bloody cheap
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> amusingly - aluminium new is cheaper than steel old
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> due to postage
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> But that's 10kg for 27 quid.
[23:38] <SpeedEvil> 2.7 quid a kilo for raw aluminium isn't a bad price even
[23:39] <amell> you have an Alu smelter in your garage?
[23:39] <SpeedEvil> amell: not yet
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[23:40] <SpeedEvil> Tehy even have trusses
[23:41] <SpeedEvil> http://www.scaffolding-direct.co.uk/alloy-steel-beams/
[23:41] Action: amell suspects many shopping sites might struggle at midnight
[23:42] <fsphil> quick, everyone visit hab supplies
[23:43] <fsphil> buy a single LED
[23:43] <amell> theres a black friday hab sale?
[23:43] <amell> black balloons at random perhaps
[23:43] SiC- (~Simon@cpc12-aztw24-2-0-cust193.aztw.cable.virginm.net) left irc: Remote host closed the connection
[23:44] <fsphil> bin liners
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[00:00] --- Fri Nov 28 2014