highaltitude.log.20141029

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[00:04] <ulfr> or more gas and make a quicker flight.
[00:04] <ulfr> but it's hard to battle the weather gods.
[00:05] <joeman> hi
[00:05] <joeman> got a question I hope someone might be able to provide a bit of advice
[00:05] <joeman> I'm sending up payload for 1hr 51 min - 27km...
[00:05] <ljenkins> kf7fer: still have record of the seller on ebay you got your SMA connectors from?
[00:05] <joeman> all sindie strofoam
[00:06] <joeman> styrofoam
[00:06] <joeman> and I have a LiPo battery in it
[00:06] <joeman> which obviously won't work terribly well if it gets to -20c
[00:06] <joeman> There will be a bit of heat generated internally by camera and other pieces
[00:07] <joeman> My thinking is that because it is a relatively short flight I can "probably" go without a "hand warmer"
[00:07] <joeman> i.e. a hand warmer near battery to ensure it keeps at a relatively cosy tempoerature
[00:08] <joeman> but I'm also aware that too much heat might not be a good thing...and of course I'd prefer to not add more weight (even though it is minimal)
[00:08] <joeman> Has anyone else sent LiPO batts without warmers and all been okay?
[00:08] <craag> From what we've seen lipo batteries do ok without warmers as long as you're not trying to charge them
[00:08] <craag> on up-burst-down flights at least
[00:09] Action: joeman nods
[00:09] <joeman> I'm contemplating to put adjacent to the electronics box (poly carb) which I know will have a bit of warmth generated
[00:09] <joeman> Thanks for that craag.
[00:09] <craag> That sounds like a good plan
[00:10] <joeman> Thanks muchly
[00:10] <goopypanther> don't most hand warmers require oxygen to work anyhow?
[00:10] <craag> yep a lot do :)
[00:11] <joeman> yes..this one I have does
[00:11] <craag> and you get better energy density using a large resistor and a AA battery.
[00:12] <joeman> when I was thining hand warmer.. I thought that the lack of air up there would mean the heat generated would less...which might actually be a good thing
[00:12] <craag> Just don't bother with the hand warmers
[00:12] <joeman> sure
[00:12] <BeaverOne> what about a hydrogen helium mixture?
[00:12] <craag> insulate the lipo so it holds some heat from the ground and you'll be fine
[00:13] <craag> (it will drop a little in capacity as it cools)
[00:13] <craag> BeaverOne: For what?
[00:13] <BeaverOne> craag: better lift
[00:13] <craag> Why not all hydrogen if you're going to the fuss of using it?
[00:14] <BeaverOne> heard it's possible to detonate
[00:14] <BeaverOne> too early
[00:14] <craag> well yes it's a flammable gas
[00:14] <craag> not going to be any less flammable when mixed with helium I'd have thought
[00:15] <fsphil> needs oxygen
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[00:15] <craag> Hydrogen would give you better lift, but that's not going to help with the wind
[00:16] <BeaverOne> this is a very difficult hobby
[00:16] <goopypanther> from what I understand, hydrogen doesn't actually beat out helium
[00:16] <craag> It does on altitude for a given balloon size and payload weight.
[00:17] <craag> As you get the same lift with less volume
[00:17] <goopypanther> since h2 has higher density it kills out the excess lift
[00:17] <craag> err h2 as a gas has lower density.
[00:17] <craag> You can play with the effects of switching here: http://habhub.org/calc/
[00:18] <craag> Open 'Constraints (advanced)'
[00:18] <craag> And select between helium and hydrogen
[00:20] <craag> BeaverOne: Probably easier to wait for wind to die down - there's a few of us waiting so we can launch :/
[00:21] <BeaverOne> what's with some of the balloons circling the earth for like 80 days?
[00:21] <ulfr> someone forgot it there.
[00:21] <ulfr> D:
[00:21] <goopypanther> ah okay yeah, 8% difference between the
[00:21] <craag> BeaverOne: They're superpressure balloons - see http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-64/
[00:25] <BeaverOne> could we come up with a superpressure-hybrid balloon to get 30km and then circumnavigate the world until we decide it's close enough to us to pop and drop?
[00:26] <craag> Yes you could - big technical challenge to get it to float for that long though!
[00:26] <craag> (and that's only at 12km)
[00:27] <craag> Took leo 64 goes...
[00:27] <craag> A good deal of his success is down to the tracker only weighing 11g too
[00:28] <craag> so no room for cameras at all. cutdown mechanism would add a bit.
[00:28] <craag> doable - but it's not easy! ;)
[00:28] <fsphil> needs one of those single line sensors pointing down
[00:28] <goopypanther> cutdown wouldn't be too much mass
[00:28] <fsphil> just scan the earth as it floats overhead
[00:28] <Laurenceb__> i was thinking of a microphone array
[00:29] <SpeedEvil> Cameras are quite doable at that mass
[00:29] <Laurenceb__> you could fit 4 or 5 I2S mics on it
[00:29] <SpeedEvil> the problem is getting the data back
[00:29] <Laurenceb__> and do synthetic aperture tricks
[00:29] <Laurenceb__> for environmental noise images
[00:29] <fsphil> yea aprs is rubbish at large data
[00:29] <SpeedEvil> I wish high gain antennas were lighter at wifi
[00:30] <ulfr> well
[00:30] <Laurenceb__> just use 20M band
[00:30] <SpeedEvil> A dish to work the ground at ~20km would be quite annoying
[00:30] <ulfr> there are polyethelyn balloons with regulation systems.
[00:30] <Laurenceb__> 20M band with a foil loop antenna, job done
[00:30] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: yeah - I mean able to actually dump many megabytes of pictures
[00:31] <craag> Laurenceb__: Awesome, when are you launching? :)
[00:31] <Laurenceb__> heh i have other projects
[00:31] <ulfr> 10~15GHz band. :)
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[00:31] <Laurenceb__> first i need to get a beaglebone to boot
[00:31] <Laurenceb__> but compared to that, foil antenna are probably easy
[00:31] <SpeedEvil> ulfr: yeah - well - that raises the annoying issue of how many recievers there are
[00:32] <ulfr> SpeedEvil: just use sats
[00:32] <ulfr> when you're streaming Mbps of data anyway.
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> ...
[00:32] <ulfr> You need better equipment than some hamstuff.
[00:32] <ulfr> :D
[00:32] <SpeedEvil> ulfr: I was literally meaning wifi
[00:32] <ulfr> I'm not.
[00:33] <SpeedEvil> To stations it happened to be passingover
[00:33] <craag> gn all!
[00:33] <SpeedEvil> Night
[00:33] <ulfr> wifi wouldn't work...
[00:33] <BeaverOne> good night
[00:33] <SpeedEvil> ulfr: It could
[00:33] <SpeedEvil> ulfr: the antenna is unfortunately annoying though
[00:34] <goopypanther> I would love to put something like this on a nano-tracker http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/OVM7690-R20A/884-1019-1-ND/2123272
[00:35] <Laurenceb__> on the other hand...
[00:35] <Laurenceb__> if 10mW on 20M can do australia to belgium
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[00:35] <Laurenceb__> then you could run 10mW ~24/7
[00:35] <Laurenceb__> at a few bits per second
[00:36] <Laurenceb__> so 40Mb so far from B-64
[00:36] <ulfr> I thought we were discussing high bandwith.
[00:37] <SpeedEvil> ulfr: I was - Laurenceb wasn't
[00:37] <ulfr> ah
[00:37] <SpeedEvil> https://twitter.com/ISS101/status/527225052333633536/photo/1 - that's not how you want a rocket launch to look.
[00:37] <SpeedEvil> (most recent launch to ISS) -
[00:38] <ulfr> yup
[00:38] <ulfr> sad sad day
[00:39] <Laurenceb__> thats a quite a lot of high res shots
[00:39] <Laurenceb__> this would be like uber slow scan video
[00:39] <Laurenceb__> a month per frame :D
[00:39] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0SgAU9LXI - holy crap
[00:40] <SpeedEvil> 'Vehicle is at 60m and expanding at mach 1'
[00:40] <SpeedEvil> :/
[00:41] <Laurenceb__> wow
[00:41] <Laurenceb__> lucky they werent hit
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[01:17] <SpeedEvil> http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html - press conference
[01:17] <BeaverOne> http://www.ustream.tv/nasahdtv
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[01:57] <BeaverOne> any Scotsmen in here? Scots? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvsOZ8C3n4w
[01:58] <BeaverOne> Scottish?
[02:00] <ulfr> I drink theirr national drink ocasionally, if that's something's worth...
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[03:10] <SpeedEvil> ulfr: buckfast?
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[04:32] <Ian_> Ha ha, Buckfast Abbey is in England of course!
[04:32] <Ian_> Just goes to show that Scottish drunks are very pious.
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[06:40] <goopypanther> oh man, looks like we got b-64 back this evening
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[07:06] <arko> http://www.spaceflight101live.com/progress-m-25m---launch-to-docking.html
[07:06] <arko> backup rocket about to take off
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[07:09] <goopypanther> well not really backup, this was already planned
[07:10] <arko> oh snap
[07:10] <arko> i was wondering how the heck they could get this all approved so quick, assumed standby
[07:11] <arko> i should have checked the source that told me this
[07:14] <goopypanther> I was wondering if they modified the manifest at all to send up anything they were depending on the cygnus for but everything on the progres is sealed up days ahead of time so something like that wouldn't be possible
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[09:42] <SP3OSJ> #habhub
[09:42] <fsphil> that way -->
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[09:53] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PYTIN-2 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=PYTIN-2
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[10:09] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VORTEX4 after 0318 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=VORTEX4
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[10:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Those interested in the AirSpy product, the mail-shot for pre-order is due out in the next 24 hours, just announced on #airspy
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[10:34] <fsphil> got a price yet?
[10:36] <craag> $199 according to the website
[10:36] <craag> 12 bit ADC is good
[10:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Nope and the web site is down at the moment
[10:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Yes its the 12bits that is most attractive
[10:37] <craag> Will be interesting to see how sensitive it is vs blade/hack
[10:37] <craag> http://imall.iteadstudio.com/im141027001.html
[10:37] <fsphil> £123 -- that matches it against the FCD pretty well
[10:37] <fsphil> and with better bandwidth
[10:37] <fsphil> could be interesting
[10:39] <fsphil> think I'll save up for the bladerf though
[10:39] <fsphil> being able to TX would be super useful
[10:39] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> $199=£123.5 at the moment
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[10:52] <Laurenceb__> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zarWT7H9t54
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[11:17] <SP3OSJ> Hi please enter my fly: Doc ID:2fce720c7cd4bd24ac7f8e176db11ca2
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[11:18] <maxmed> Hi, how hard is it to apply to the CAA to launch from some random place (eg. public park)? how long does it usually take to get permssion?
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> VEry easy
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> some months
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> Depending on what ytou want to do - there may be no need
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> - if your balloon and payload will at all times in flight be under a 2m sphere
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> be enclosed in
[11:19] <craag> Can take at least a month first time. After one has been approved others will be quicker/easier.
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> a virtual one
[11:19] <craag> (for the same place)
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> craag: Are there sample submitted forms - to get it in a consistent format?
[11:20] <craag> Not that I know of. It's quite easy to fill in.
[11:21] <craag> I might not be the best person to talk to though - as both of mine were denied :P
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> hah
[11:22] <maxmed> My balloon wil be too big during flight to be classified as a pico. I'm thinking that I might apply to get permission to launch somewhere in Bournmouth for a couple of months time, then if I can't find a time the winds will let me launch from Cambridge I can use the slot
[11:22] <maxmed> is it a problem if you end up not using the launch?
[11:22] <daveake> no
[11:22] <gonzo__> maxmed, where abouts are you? In bournemouth?
[11:22] <daveake> But if you decide to cancel before permission is issued, let DM@CAA know
[11:22] <daveake> He does appreciate not doing work for nothing :)
[11:23] <daveake> Rule 1: Apply well in advance
[11:23] <daveake> Rule 2: Send him a remind 3-4 days before launch saying you do actually want to launch
[11:23] <daveake> +er
[11:23] <daveake> Rule 3: Say thanks after.
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[11:25] <mattbrejza> maxmed_: weve got permission in the new forest before, so that will probably be granted much quicker. cant go east or south though (until its higher than airliners)
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[11:27] <gonzo__> I had the same restriction on one from out wimborne direction. The problem is 90% of the time the windtakes it east and south
[11:28] <gonzo__> lucky on the day a weather front cane through and the track was north. But with a weather front comes weather. And we got drenched.
[11:28] <maxmed_> South from the new forest is not an issue as wouldn't want to launch if it was going to land in France! Do you just have to check the prediction to see if it is heading East? how East os
[11:28] <maxmed_> *is East
[11:29] <gonzo__> pico balloons are your friend. As you can pick the days you want on a whim
[11:29] <gonzo__> they don't want it drifting through the hurn and solent airspace basically
[11:29] <maxmed_> what weight payload can a pico take?
[11:30] <gonzo__> can obnly talk about my own launches, 30-40gm on 2x foil balloons is useable. But the lighter the better
[11:31] <craag> Or you could use a 100g pawan latex
[11:31] <gonzo__> there are small latex balloons that are close to the pico limit.
[11:31] <gonzo__> snap
[11:31] <craag> with the payload tucked right up by the neck
[11:31] <craag> Try it out on the burst calc
[11:32] <gonzo__> they are very close, so you have to do tricks to be sure it will not infringe the 2mtr rule
[11:32] <gonzo__> if you are looning to fly cameras, then other than a little key bob type vcam, you are well into the NOTAM sized balloons
[11:33] <gonzo__> fob
[11:33] <gonzo__> (I was going to correct 'looning', but prefer it!)
[11:33] <maxmed_> Problem is i got a box of about 10 350g latex balloons! And i want to try and get a decent camera onboard so a larger balloon is needed
[11:33] <craag> Sounds like you're joining us to wait for favourable new forest predictions then :)
[11:34] <craag> Hmm saturday isn't disastrous
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[11:34] <maxmed_> I got one of the keyfob cameras and was very unimpressed with the quality
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[11:35] <craag> I had to send 2 back that were advertised as HD, and not HD
[11:35] <craag> were sub-vga mjpeg
[11:35] <gonzo__> some people have also had issues/suspissions with them jamming GPS
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[11:35] <mattbrejza> i reckon launching on the NW corner of the new forest will avoid the east restriction though
[11:36] <craag> seller was very apologetic, said he didn't know what they were, so advertised them as the most expensive model :|
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[11:36] <gonzo__> but they are cheap and it hurst less when the thing lands in the sea
[11:36] <craag> / gets stuck in a tree
[11:36] <gonzo__> mattbrejza, was stoney cross used before?
[11:37] <craag> (the one I got stuck in the tree was HD, and was rather good)
[11:37] <mattbrejza> yea
[11:37] <gonzo__> of if you are steve, in power lines
[11:38] <maxmed_> once you've got permission once how long does it usually take?
[11:38] <mattbrejza> couple days or so
[11:38] <gonzo__> we used to use that for rockets. lots of planes, as it's a visual reporting point, but rockets don't go high and have such short duration you can just look and chack
[11:38] <mattbrejza> also rockets <160N the CAA dont care
[11:38] <mattbrejza> *160Ns
[11:39] <gonzo__> I suspect that the first application for a site means that they have to assess and contact airfields etc. After that it's just crank the handle
[11:39] <gonzo__> not a clue what we had. Hobby motors from the model shop
[11:40] <gonzo__> going sideways to the road was more of a concern
[11:40] <craag> 160Ns is a lot
[11:41] <craag> http://www.sunwardhobbies.ca/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/Estes-engine-chart_32.jpg
[11:42] <gonzo__> D motors, 20Ns
[11:42] <gonzo__> so we were in the garden firework terratory!
[11:42] <maxmed_> Do you guys bother with a radar reflector?
[11:43] <craag> maxmed_: No
[11:43] <gonzo__> but we managed to send up video cams and bring them back down on chutes
[11:44] <gonzo__> radar ref is not a requirement, and the size req for one that ATC radra would see is silly big for our balloon/payload size
[11:46] <maxmed_> ok cool, I see on the notam form you can specify daily period and date of flight/s, how many different dates could you apply for on a single form? e.g. could you apply for the same time everyday for a week and hope on one of the days the forecast is good?
[11:49] <gonzo__> Prob yes. I applied for a few hrs slot sat/sun over 2 weekends.
[11:51] <maxmed_> ok, also I've seen this chart: http://stratosvision.com/docs/UK-ATS-AIRSPACE.pdf is it advisable to avoid launch sites inside the blue rectangles?
[11:52] <gonzo__> others with more experience than my one notam'ed flight may chip in?
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[12:35] <Laurenceb> B-64 heading towards 4 months
[12:36] <Laurenceb> another 2 weeks and its up in the "top tier"
[12:36] <Laurenceb> only ghost and a handful of cnes have flown past 125days
[12:40] <Maxell> It's number one for ukhas-related launches right?
[12:40] <Maxell> aka diy balloons...
[12:40] <Laurenceb> just slightly
[12:41] <Maxell> hmmm
[12:41] <Maxell> Still amazing tough :D
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[12:57] <LeoBodnar> what's google longest one?
[13:05] <jededu> Any idea what this is Im getting on 434.650 GBARC,412,0,13:55:59,52.8366,-3.4920,8264m,12
[13:11] <fsphil> ah BARC again
[13:11] <fsphil> with a working gps
[13:12] <Maxell> 8264m ?
[13:12] <Maxell> !payload GBARC
[13:12] <SpacenearUS> 03Maxell: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[13:12] <fsphil> they don't use standard ukhas strings
[13:12] <Maxell> !payload BARC
[13:12] <SpacenearUS> 03Maxell: Can't find a flight doc matching your query
[13:12] <Maxell> ah
[13:12] <jededu> It looked like it was moving very weak though
[13:13] <fsphil> previous flights of theirs had lots of gps issues
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[13:19] <lz1dev> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL5eddt-iAo
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[13:24] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Nothing heard on 434.650+/- down here, suspect its a bit to far North for me
[13:24] <fsphil> ooh did I leave my radio on I wonder
[13:26] <fsphil> nope I did not
[13:26] <fsphil> ah well
[13:27] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Be about 120-130 degrees from you
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[13:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EDUPIC6 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=EDUPIC6
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[13:39] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> Do you think this applies to the callsign ? http://www.acronymfinder.com/Greater-Boston-Association-for-Retarded-Citizens-%28Boston,-MA%29-%28GBARC%29.html
[13:41] <fsphil> oh dear
[13:46] <fsphil> BARC are these guys: http://sentintospace.com/
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[14:22] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EDUPIC5 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=EDUPIC5
[14:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> How slow can B-64 go its down to 18mph!
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> There is a reason it's called the jet stream
[14:31] <craag> been pulled over by strato-cops?
[14:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah perhaps its paying its repects to Tombstone!
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[14:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> Um winds are a bit slow in the vicinity http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/isobaric/500hPa/orthographic=-114.80,33.32,3000
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[14:50] <wenko> B-64 dropped out of APRS range rather fast...
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[14:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> What makes you think its dropped out of range ?
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[15:13] <myself> If B-64 is over land when it finally gives out, do you figure people will try to go get it? I sure would if it happened anywhere nearby..
[15:14] <UpuWork> was anyone listening to BARC ?
[15:15] <UpuWork> tl;dr they've lost it any position reports would be appreciated
[15:16] <jededu> I only had it for a couple of mins
[15:16] <fsphil> my radio isn't on at home
[15:16] <Geoff-G8DHE> Couldn't hear it down here, there was a location given in the last posting about it back up the list
[15:16] <jededu> It was at 8km so probably wouldnt help
[15:16] <fsphil> might have been heading down
[15:18] Nick change: day- -> day
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[15:19] <UpuWork> I'll ask them
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[15:19] <Laurenceb> down to 12mph
[15:20] <jededu> fldigi wont output audio through pc speakers any ideas
[15:21] <jededu> I have audio output on the pc and I can select speakers in the settings
[15:22] <jededu> I have line input but no sound
[15:23] <fsphil> there's an option burried deep within windows to enable monitoring the line input
[15:23] <fsphil> used to be easier in xp to enable it
[15:24] <jededu> Thanks fsphil as soon as you mentioned it i knew where it was
[15:25] <fsphil> ah grand, just found a link but realised I was browsing in a VM I can't copy and paste from
[15:27] <UpuWork> jededu can you still hear that payload ?
[15:27] <UpuWork> it should have come down somewhere between tamworth and leicester
[15:28] <fsphil> the pasted string put it in wales
[15:28] <fsphil> assuming it was received correctly
[15:31] <jededu> No Ill point the yagi that way hang on
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[15:35] <jededu> Nothing sorry but I should at least see it on the waterfall if its that close
[15:35] <day> myself: would that even be doable? how often does it update its position? Maybe the electronic dies before the balloon dies.
[15:36] <jededu> What freq was in on
[15:36] <day> i dont think its going to be found unless it keeps transmitting after it landed
[15:36] <day> 'crashed' :P
[15:37] <BrainDamage> https://i.4cdn.org/int/1414591955618.jpg
[15:38] <lz1dev> 1/fq 1
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[15:42] <myself> day: Nobody said it would be easy ;) But for such a record-setting gizmo, the payload if recovered would surely go on display somewhere interesting.
[15:46] <Geoff-G8DHE> Perhaps start a Museum of HAB balloons, we could hang up the shreds of Latex that return ;-)
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[16:00] <fsphil> we could put it next to the fan museum
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[16:07] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> The English Heritage could come along and deem it of Cultural significance and list it ..
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[16:11] <ibanezmatt13> Much better video of yesterday's launch mishap, in case you've not spotted it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ0SgAU9LXI
[16:13] <adamgreig> i enjoy how the sky fades to black as the motors ignite, and then later snaps back to blue after the explosion diminishes
[16:14] <adamgreig> how's it going ibanezmatt13?
[16:14] <ibanezmatt13> not bad adamgreig. Got a few offers back from various unis
[16:14] <fsphil> don't expect they'll find any clues left on the launchpad
[16:14] <fsphil> hopefully there's enough data to figure out what happened
[16:15] <adamgreig> cool cool
[16:15] <adamgreig> what and where?
[16:15] <ibanezmatt13> Manchester, Southampton and Bath, for Aerospace. Not heard back from Bristol or Cam yet, though I've got the main ones I wanted
[16:15] <adamgreig> sweet
[16:16] <adamgreig> offers good?
[16:16] <ibanezmatt13> mm, A*AA apart from Manchester, AAA
[16:16] <adamgreig> my cousin is at bath and loves it to bits. tho she is doing english rather than aerospace :p
[16:16] <ibanezmatt13> nice
[16:17] <ibanezmatt13> I think I might have been slightly optimistic, but, ah well. Oh adamgreig, like my latest rocket in sw: http://pbrd.co/1004rPi ? :)
[16:18] <adamgreig> oh i think i saw a tweet of this
[16:18] <adamgreig> biprop?!
[16:18] <ibanezmatt13> yup
[16:18] <adamgreig> optimistic? you already have three offers in hand! :P
[16:18] <mfa298> Bath is a nice city and still has lots of heritage stuffs.
[16:18] <ibanezmatt13> yea, optimistic as, A*AA... :P
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[16:19] <adamgreig> it can be a solid motivation to study hard :P
[16:19] <adamgreig> nice design
[16:19] <DL7AD> !hysplit B-64
[16:19] <SpacenearUS> 03DL7AD: HYSPLIT for 03B-64 - 12http://spacenear.us/tracker/hysplit_cache/141029-10_150378_B64.gif
[16:19] <ibanezmatt13> indeed, thanks
[16:19] <adamgreig> we have modified the hybrid you saw firing to have the nozzle retention a bit more similar to yours in fact
[16:19] <adamgreig> screw in bolts rather than the huge threaded end cap thing
[16:19] <adamgreig> though ours screw in radially so that the bolts are in shear loading
[16:19] <adamgreig> might be worth a thought
[16:20] <ibanezmatt13> Ah yeah. Really happy with it considering it's been designed properly
[16:20] <adamgreig> I might be misreading the design though, is the fuel feed on the right? :P
[16:20] <ibanezmatt13> For now that injector is just my imagination at work, nothing proper
[16:21] <ibanezmatt13> The chamber and nozzle has been done properly, working on the injector now
[16:21] <adamgreig> ah ok cool
[16:21] <adamgreig> nozzle is on the left? integral?
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[16:21] <ibanezmatt13> yes and yes
[16:21] <adamgreig> what's it all made of?
[16:21] <ibanezmatt13> copper
[16:21] <adamgreig> cool
[16:21] <adamgreig> gonna cool it?
[16:21] <ibanezmatt13> should be able to withstand the heat for a few seconds. Err, well. Not sure yet
[16:22] <adamgreig> just add some speed-fins ;)
[16:22] <ibanezmatt13> Might just ask my grandad to kindly spray water over it with a power washer...
[16:22] <adamgreig> what's the fuels?
[16:23] <ibanezmatt13> isopropanol
[16:23] <ibanezmatt13> I think that's how you spell it
[16:23] <ibanezmatt13> and gox
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[16:23] <adamgreig> IPA?
[16:23] <ibanezmatt13> yeah
[16:24] <adamgreig> cool
[16:24] <adamgreig> sounds good!
[16:24] <ibanezmatt13> yep :)
[16:24] <ibanezmatt13> Just need to get the flaming injector sorted, and then I can look at sorting out a launch control system with fancy solenoids and things
[16:25] <adamgreig> what're you pressurising the fuel feed with?
[16:25] <adamgreig> assuming no turbopumps
[16:25] <ibanezmatt13> Oh god no, though they do look awesome
[16:25] <ibanezmatt13> Blow down
[16:25] <ibanezmatt13> regulator etc
[16:26] <adamgreig> nitrogen or something? or just compressed air in the IPA tank?
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[16:26] <ibanezmatt13> Haven't really thought yet, not sure
[16:26] <ibanezmatt13> I think nitrogen possibly yeah.
[16:26] <adamgreig> sweet
[16:27] <edmoore> i recommend nitrogen
[16:27] <ibanezmatt13> cool, oh Ed not showed you this pic: http://pbrd.co/1004rPi
[16:28] <adamgreig> so what's the date for the first firing? :3
[16:28] <craag> aweome ibanezmatt13 !
[16:28] <ibanezmatt13> thanks craag
[16:28] <craag> awesome even :)
[16:28] <ibanezmatt13> well... asap really :)
[16:29] <adamgreig> hehe of course
[16:29] <ibanezmatt13> but, I'll be getting my design verified
[16:29] <edmoore> what's the impingement angle/
[16:30] <edmoore> on the injector
[16:30] <ibanezmatt13> firstly, totally disregard the injector on that pic, it was pure imagination
[16:30] <edmoore> right
[16:30] <ibanezmatt13> I was thinking no angle for the fuel, and just have it come in at the centre, axially along the chamber
[16:30] <edmoore> that was about to develop into a conversation about we should redesign your injector
[16:30] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, don't panic
[16:31] <ibanezmatt13> Then a few oxidizer orifices around that one, angled to impinge somewhere in the middle. Not sure about the angle
[16:31] <ibanezmatt13> I had a bash at working out the tan of the angle of resultant momentum, and could get it no where near zero
[16:31] <edmoore> i might be inclined to swap that round
[16:31] <edmoore> so you have a fuel rich boundary layer down the chamber
[16:32] <edmoore> it'll be much nicer to the metalurgy
[16:32] <ibanezmatt13> ah yeah I suppose so
[16:32] <ibanezmatt13> check this out:
[16:32] <ibanezmatt13> http://pbrd.co/10076IN
[16:32] <edmoore> yeah, don't worry about absolute momemtum, it's the momentum ratio you want to design to
[16:32] <ibanezmatt13> ah ok
[16:32] <edmoore> this is all good stuff matt
[16:33] <ibanezmatt13> Sure is, so really I'm just in the process of working out if I'm on the road to sensible values.
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[16:39] <ibanezmatt13> edmoore, I think I'm going to struggle to have several fuel orifices around the outside. For 8 orifices, the diameters would be < 1mm
[16:40] <edmoore> yes
[16:40] <edmoore> welcome
[16:40] <edmoore> to the world of machining Good injectors with small massflows
[16:40] <ibanezmatt13> sounds fun. Changing the pressure drop does basically nothing
[16:41] <ibanezmatt13> It's doable with 4 orifices, diameter about 1mm
[16:41] <edmoore> you could just do an unlike impinging pair
[16:41] <edmoore> 4 would be fine
[16:41] <edmoore> when doing small holes, you need to be careful
[16:41] <edmoore> i suspect your grandad can helps with all this
[16:41] <ibanezmatt13> not really, we don't have the kit. Only basic tools
[16:41] <edmoore> but know that drills always drill bigger holes than their nominal diameter
[16:42] <edmoore> because they untwist slightly from the torque
[16:42] <edmoore> so drill say a 0.9 then do a finishing 1mm, which will put less force on the 1mm
[16:42] <edmoore> or much much better yet, ream to the final dimaeter
[16:42] <ibanezmatt13> ah right, didn't know that
[16:43] <ibanezmatt13> I think it'll be a case of designing it for a while until I can find somewhere to get it done. I've had quotes, they're not cheap :P
[16:44] <edmoore> yeah
[16:44] <edmoore> find a lathe
[16:45] <ibanezmatt13> The lathe bit probably isn't so hard, I can't imagine milling out the inside
[16:47] <edmoore> http://i.imgur.com/0xaEd2j.jpg
[16:47] <ibanezmatt13> haha :)
[16:48] <craag> maybe talk to a local hack/makerspace if there is one near you. They might have a lathe.
[16:49] <edmoore> http://i.imgur.com/zmk3gwH.gif.jpg
[16:49] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah might be worth a shot craag
[16:50] <craag> Be careful of blowing their minds though ;)
[16:50] <myself> Heh. Ours isn't super precision but it's pretty alright for being a 14x40-inch machine.
[16:50] <ibanezmatt13> lol yeah. Just realised I should've thought about tolerances...
[16:50] <myself> (wanna make some stupidly big injectors??)
[16:51] <myself> also totally drop in next time you're in detroit. Minds may blow in all directions.
[16:51] Nick change: heathkid|2 -> heathkid
[16:51] <ibanezmatt13> Oh thanks. Sadly, don't think I'll be coming over to detroit for a few years
[16:53] <myself> sadtrombone.com
[16:53] <ibanezmatt13> i like that :)
[16:54] <mfa298> laser cutter that could do metal would be the cool way of doing it.
[16:55] <adamgreig> not sure many laser cutters that can do metal can also do a precise hole less than 1mm diameter
[16:55] <mfa298> although I doubt many hacker spaces have the,
[16:56] <ibanezmatt13> are large chunks of copper expensive? :/
[16:57] <mfa298> I've only used a laser cutter that can do plastics, wood and paper and that can be pretty accurate. I'm not sure what a metal one would be like though.
[16:57] <adamgreig> accuracy isn't the issue as much as the kerf
[16:58] <adamgreig> ibanezmatt13: it's not the world's cheapest material.. :p
[16:58] <ibanezmatt13> right... :P
[16:58] <ibanezmatt13> This design might remain in my head for longer than planned then :)#
[16:59] <adamgreig> if you can design it to be machined from more commonly available parts, like copper pipe and sheet, you'll have a cheaper time
[16:59] <ibanezmatt13> Well there was always the option of doing a bodged job and welding a nozzle of some description onto some copper pipe for the chamber
[17:00] <edmoore> i doubt you'll get much copper pipe that diameter
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[17:00] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, bout 7mm
[17:00] <ibanezmatt13> plus I'm not sure it'd be thick enough
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[17:01] <adamgreig> 7mm?
[17:01] <ibanezmatt13> er
[17:01] <ibanezmatt13> 70mm
[17:01] <ibanezmatt13> :P
[17:02] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, it's 7.08cm
[17:02] <adamgreig> alibaba has 70mm copper pipe for about $100 a kilogram, min order only half a ton
[17:03] <adamgreig> but yes
[17:03] <adamgreig> that's probably larger than you can find premade I guess
[17:03] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, a rather costly build this rocket
[17:03] <ibanezmatt13> still, it'll look good in solidworks when it's finished, just won't make the noise
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[17:09] <ibanezmatt13> edmoore, is there a manufacturer of decent inlets to bring the propellant into the injector from the feedlines? Like the Bucanneer of inlets, not connectors :P
[17:10] <edmoore> swagelok
[17:10] <ibanezmatt13> cool, thanks
[17:10] <edmoore> rocket engine maccano
[17:11] <ibanezmatt13> sure looks like that
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[17:14] <ibanezmatt13> time to do absolutely nothing and raid the fridge. bbl :)
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[17:15] <deano86> good aftenoon everyone
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[17:23] <lz1dev> http://www.livestream.com/spaceflightnow
[17:24] <mattbrejza> 100% less explodey
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[17:24] <lz1dev> yep
[17:25] <lz1dev> these guys have some sick video tracking
[17:26] <LeoBodnar> Farnell has 20% discount day today until midnight
[17:26] <mattbrejza> over £200?
[17:27] <LeoBodnar> discount code is OCTUK10
[17:27] <LeoBodnar> yep
[17:27] <LeoBodnar> no T&M, devkits or Pies
[17:29] <lz1dev> that dude is like mid 20s
[17:29] <edmoore> this is jolly good timing for ula
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[17:35] <lz1dev> they could do with a higher res visualization :)
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[17:36] <SpeedEvil> They should just give up and use the kerbal interface
[17:37] <SpeedEvil> http://www.livestream.com/spaceflightnow
[17:37] <SpeedEvil> What is that on the background - right
[17:37] <SpeedEvil> It's not quite a shuttle
[17:37] <myself> Weren't there folks using the X-plane API for real flight controls a while back?
[17:38] <edmoore> i think someone on this channel was
[17:39] <edmoore> what a nice suit
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[17:48] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[17:59] <maxmed> Hi, I know that if you connnect a GPS to hardware serial on an arduino you can't program the arduino without disconnecting the gps, but how do you guys get around this? just unsolder rx and tx when programming or use a conector or a switch? is there a better way?
[18:00] <maxmed> by better i mean more compact
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[18:02] <mattbrejza> a resistor between gps and avr
[18:03] <myself> So the FTDI, when it's active, can "boss around" those lines, and the GPS has such weak influence it doesn't interfere. But when the FTDI is disconnected, the GPS's influence over the high-impedance AVR inputs is plenty..
[18:04] <myself> not sure if that's the best way to explain it, but that's how it works in my head
[18:04] <jonsowman> sounds like a good explanation to me :)
[18:04] <myself> (this also means you can step into the other side of the resistors, nearest the GPS, and speak NMEA to it, also without disconnecting the arduino)
[18:04] <maxmed> ok, that sounds like a good idea, do I need one of the rx and tx or just on one?
[18:06] <maxmed> and what value resistor would you use?
[18:06] <myself> my gut feeling says "10k until proven otherwise" :)
[18:08] <maxmed> ok- do you know what colour bands that is?
[18:10] <Ian_> Brown black orange ( three bands) or more likely brown black black red
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[18:12] <maxmed> brilliant, just found a set of them sitting right infront of me on my desk! (I love being disorganized!) Do i need it on tx and rx or just on one?
[18:14] <LeoBodnar> you can do this scientifically i you know impedances of all the sources and loads, level thresholds and safety margins
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[18:21] <maxmed> Someone must know if you need a resistor on tx and rx or just one!
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[18:38] <myself> maxmed: instead of spoon-feeding you color codes, you could try to talk out how the scheme works and check your understanding, and you'll figure it out for yourself with perhaps a little guidance
[18:40] <lz1dev> !hysplit run pytin-2
[18:40] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Your job has been added to the queue. Check in a few minutes
[18:45] <maxmed> I do understand color codes for resistors, I can decode a resistor but was unsure how to go the other way, ie was 10k black brown yellow or brown black orange? both come out as the same and didnt want to waste my time looking through a bunch of ressistors for one with the wrong code!
[18:48] <myself> Okay, skipping right past the word "understand"... Can you explain the function of putting a resistor on a signal line between the gps and processor?
[18:51] <maxmed> It weakens the signals between the proccessor and gps enough that when another source of "signals" is introduced (programmer) they overpower the gps's signals so can communicate directly with the processor without interference from the gps, when the programmeris discconnected there is still a strong enough signal for the proccesor to comunicate witht the gps.
[18:53] <myself> Okay, so which side of the reisistor does your programmer need to be connected on?
[18:54] <maxmed> the same side as the proccessor
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[18:55] <myself> okay, so do you need a resistor in the other lead, where the processor talks back to the gps/programmer?
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[18:58] <maxmed> Probably as I'm guessing the programmer requires verification that the new code has been received by the proccessor and probably doesnt want spamming up with stuff sent out by the gps
[19:01] <maxmed> was that logic correct?
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[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> guess that is to prevent crosstalking on the line
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[19:23] <mikestir> maxmed: no that logic isn't correct. think about which devices are talkers and which are listeners
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[19:26] <LeoBodnar> programmer usually faints when he sees a bare resistor
[19:27] <maxmed> during programming processor is listener and programmer is talker, in normal use gps is talker and proccessor is listener (but does some talking at the start). As the proccessor doesnt talk during programming you don't need a resistor on the proccessor's tx ?
[19:27] <mikestir> think about the transmit and receive signals independently
[19:29] <maxmed> programmer transmits signals to processor, processor then sends "received" signals which must get back to programmer but can also go to gps?
[19:32] <mikestir> getting there. but do you understand why it can also go to the gps? remember you have two separate wires each with a connection to the gps, programmer and processor. on one of those wires only one of the connections is a talker...
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[19:34] <maxmed> The gps won't be listening for "received" signals as is just a talker, not a listener
[19:35] <mikestir> think about it electrically rather than logically. all three have a transmit pin and a receive pin. what matters is how they are connected together
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[19:39] <maxmed> oh, I think I see, if the programmer sends a signal to the processor then it will send it to the proccessor's rx pin which is the gps's tx pin so won't be heard by the gps. If the gps tries to send something it will go to the processor's rx so the programmer's tx so won't be heard. If the programmer tries to send something it will go to the gps's rx pin and the programmer's rx pin so will be heard so you need a resistor between th
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[19:40] <mikestir> yes that's basically right. the analogy would be two conversations in a room. In the first conversation you have one talker (CPU) and two listeners (GPS and PGM). If the talker talks then both listeners can hear (and ignore if they're not interested)
[19:41] <mikestir> in the other conversation you have two talkers (GPS and PGM) and one listener (CPU). Both talkers talk over each other and the listener hears nothing intelligible
[19:42] <mikestir> but if one talker (GPS) talks into a pillow then CPU can understand GPS as long as PGM doesn't say anything (because it would be much louder)
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[19:43] <maxmed> thats a cool analogy, makes sense. so resistor between processor's rx and gps's tx
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[19:43] <mikestir> exactly
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[19:45] <maxmed> one more thing, have I understood the data sheet correctly that the NTX2B draws 20mA max? so I can connect it to one of the I/O pins and set it to output and high in setup and it will work fine? (can deliver max 40mA I think)?
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[19:45] <mikestir> and to illustrate why there's no point in having a resistor on the gps rx - that would be like the cpu talking into a pillow while pgm and gps listen. the programmer and gps will both still hear it, just more quietly
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[19:47] <mikestir> you want to power the ntx2b from an IO? I thought it had a shutdown pin?
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[19:49] <maxmed> yeah it does, the En pin which you could just set to low and turn it off, but powering it from an IO makes the wiring easier as don't have to try and get 2 wires into one pin/hole
[19:53] <mikestir> they IOs are only rated up to 20mA so I wouldn't risk it
[19:54] <myself> You'll incur some voltage drop through the processor if trying to use an output as a power supply. It'll result in poor power quality, and noise from the transmitter would have a higher chance of affecting the processor.
[19:55] <mikestir> and this
[19:55] <mikestir> and by the way - I see where you got the 40mA figure from so it's a good opportunity for me to have another rant about absolute maximum ratings :)
[19:55] <edmoore> use a fet if you want an i/o pin to control vcc to the gps
[19:55] <myself> In general you want your power supply to be "stiff", low-impedance, and running it through the resistance inherent in the processor's totempole output would make it squishy.
[19:55] <edmoore> the peak current consumption of gps's is actually fairly higher
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[19:56] <edmoore> and yes, as others say you get all the internal switching noise from the microcontroller on the vcc of the gps if you use an io pin
[19:56] <mikestir> edmoore: he's wanting to use it to power the ntx2b because it's easier than running two wires for power and enable
[19:56] <Upu> :o)
[19:56] <edmoore> oic
[19:57] <edmoore> i don;t keep up with things anymore
[19:57] <edmoore> getting old
[19:57] <maxmed> ok then, I'll connect it to the VCC pin, so I guess you get the same problems using a I/O as a ground pin for the NTx?
[19:57] <Upu> wut
[19:57] <edmoore> yes
[19:57] <mikestir> so maxmed: to the right of the box where it says "DC current per I/O pin = 40mA", read the bit starting with "NOTICE"
[19:57] <edmoore> don;t do that
[19:58] <Upu> the ntx2 has a regulator on board
[19:58] <Upu> just connect it to the supply line and turn it on and off using EN
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[19:58] <Upu> bonus doing this means you can use software serial on the en pin to change frequency
[19:59] <Upu> just as a matter of point maxmed if you are considering launching this under a balloon
[19:59] <Upu> you are putting your design into a fairly harsh enviroment
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[20:00] <Upu> any shortcuts or being lazy type design descisions are likely to bite you in the ass
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[20:02] <maxmed> mikestir- oh I see, thats kinda misleading! Upu- my plan was always to have the En pin connected to a IO pin so I could change frequency etc. I wanted to use a different pin to act as the power supply and another to act as the ground pin so I wouldnt have to fit 2 wires into the same hole on the arduino board (one to go to NTx other to Gps) as it would make wirimg neater but sounds like it won't work well
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[20:05] <mfa298> maxmed: learn to use a soldering iron, then you can make up cables so you can run two things off the same pin
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[20:05] <mfa298> also if you're planning on flying this I wouldn't want to rely on wires poked into holes.
[20:06] <mfa298> apply the Ed stairs test, would you be confident to throw it down the stairs and have it still working when it hits the bottom.
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[20:07] <edmoore> oh yes
[20:07] <edmoore> wires in holes is not a thing
[20:08] <edmoore> people get cursed when they try and do too much robust engineering with arduino-ey prototyping
[20:08] <mikestir> maxmed: "absolute maximum ratings" is a terminology thing. You will see that section in the datasheet for basically any semiconductor device (chip, transistor, led, whatever). These are the numbers beyond which you have probably destroyed the device. The numbers you actually design with are the ones in the "characteristics" or "operating conditions" section(s)
[20:08] <maxmed_> My main hobby is building robotwars style fighting robots so I know a thing or two about making things that won't break when dropped from a staircase. The wires are soldered in the holes directly on the arduino board, soldering directly to board = one less point of failure
[20:08] <edmoore> it's worth doing cables and connectors properly for something going on a trip like a balloon ride
[20:09] <edmoore> maxmed_, which weight class?
[20:09] <maxmed_> mikestir- I was just going off this page: http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardProMini - doesnt even have the notice or state that it is maximum conditions
[20:10] <Upu> maybe best check atmel's datasheet
[20:10] <maxmed_> edmoore- I do antweights (150g), featherweights (13.6kg) and am building a heavyweight (100kg)
[20:10] <mikestir> ffs
[20:10] <mikestir> yes, what Upu says, since it seems that the arduino guys don't know what they're doing
[20:10] <LeoBodnar> learn from others' mistakes
[20:11] <LeoBodnar> look what arduino did to Antares
[20:11] <Upu> lol
[20:11] <edmoore> maxmed_, cool, a did antweights and a feather quite a number of years ago
[20:11] <edmoore> i competed in AWS3 and 4
[20:12] <maxmed_> wow that was a while ago! for antweights I've only been to AWS43!
[20:12] <edmoore> i think my first one was also peter waller who i understand has done quite well since
[20:13] <mikestir> maxmed_: this is where they got that number from http://i.imgur.com/CW8hyge.png
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[20:16] <maxmed_> mikestir- that is ridiculus, I was trying to find a proper datasheet but nothing was coming up, i assumed the actual arduino page would have it's facts straight but clearly a load of rubbish. edmoor- yeah he is still about, has enough robots to take over a small country I think
[20:16] <LeoBodnar> go after small planet
[20:17] <mikestir> maxmed_: http://www.atmel.com/devices/atmega168.aspx
[20:17] <edmoore> maxmed_, in general there is sero substitute for the device datasheet
[20:17] <edmoore> the arduino universe is a thin and incomplete veneer over an atmega
[20:17] <mikestir> full of misinformation and a lack of decoupling
[20:18] <edmoore> that makes the basic 10% of microcontoller jobs 10x easier (which has a place) but often causes problems when you want to do something more complicated
[20:21] <maxmed_> yeah clearly arduinos have there problems but they are a great eductional tool, without them there is no way I would be doing this.
[20:21] <edmoore> see above
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[20:21] <LeoBodnar> i disagree
[20:22] <LeoBodnar> with "a great eductional tool"
[20:22] <mikestir> indeed. people learned how to do embedded systems just fine before arduinos came along
[20:22] <mikestir> and those people ended up with a half decent grasp of computer architecture into the bargain
[20:22] <LeoBodnar> perhaps "a comfortable stop-gap solution"
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[20:24] <Upu> I just invited someone on here to come had a chat, its not about balloons its about using GPS and PPS to sync two radio telescopes
[20:24] <Upu> so be nice to him he knows its not strictly on topic
[20:25] <lz1dev> time to bring out the pichforks
[20:26] <maxmed_> it depends what you eventually want out of it, if you want to do more electronics/programming then arduinos are useless but if you just want to be able to do some cool simple projects then they are great as you can pick it up in a day or two having never done much programming
[20:29] <LeoBodnar> where is he? http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/nervous.gif
[20:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> He needs a decent Pulsar then http://media1.giphy.com/media/1MLNnALtEqdVK/200.gif
[20:32] <edmoore> easy peasy upu
[20:32] <Upu> yeah he's wanting accuracy down to ns level
[20:32] <edmoore> that's not that accurate
[20:32] <edmoore> so, still easy peasy
[20:32] <Upu> heh
[20:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> Arduino would do thatthen ...
[20:33] <Upu> But my second para. was not for NTP, but UTC determination locally (my rural site) - indeed right onto the dishes front-ends, where I shall down-convert. The LOs for the down-converters will be straight from a dual DDS locked to the master clock. It's the master clock I am after, with the tight UTC time-stamping needed in order to allow good correlator activity from the two antenna streams
[20:33] <Upu> (by post processing, with the key part of the receivers being SDRs using Python-coded FPGAs). This front-end syncing will be done by direct wire connection, not a bus/Ethernet. Then the post-processing can do a MLS re-sync of the streams w/o lots of potential for error or jitter, might even be able to dispense with this step. But I'm no expert.
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[20:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> If others haven't seen it yet the AirSpy is now available for pre-order at $199
[20:34] <myself> Upu: This convo might be right at home in #rtlsdr; there are some folks there who do crazy radio astronomy things and precise sync is among them.
[20:34] <Upu> I went on #rtlsdr once
[20:34] <Upu> crazy was certainly one word that described it
[20:34] <myself> http://www.sbrac.org/files/DTP_RX.pdf most recently among them
[20:35] <edmoore> #gnuradio is good
[20:35] <LeoBodnar> the box you have sounds suspiciously close to what you describe
[20:35] <Upu> I know
[20:35] <Upu> did you ever develop code for that ?
[20:36] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[20:36] <Upu> that can set anything other than 10mhz ?
[20:36] <LeoBodnar> what master clock freq is required?
[20:36] <LeoBodnar> yes
[20:36] <Upu> may I ?
[20:36] <LeoBodnar> you will
[20:37] <myself> Upu: CDMA cellsites use GPS-referenced LOs to achieve phase-correct timing at regional scales. Depending on your budget and scale, you might look at using a few GPSTM modules and calling it a day.
[20:38] <LeoBodnar> I think for radioastronomy anything not 19" mounted will get you strange looks
[20:38] <edmoore> yeah i'm quite sure there are a lot of OTS solutions for this
[20:45] <lz1dev> can you get nanoscale clock percision on a pc?
[20:45] <edmoore> depends where on the pc
[20:45] <edmoore> like, there are tings with accurate clocks
[20:45] <edmoore> higher end network phys
[20:45] <edmoore> various io controllers
[20:46] <edmoore> but deterministic latency through the os layers usually needs an rtos
[20:47] <edmoore> white rabit is a cern in-house open ethernet extension that syncs all the computer nodes to <ns
[20:47] <edmoore> over up to about 10km links
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[20:48] <lz1dev> looking at a linux box, the clock precisions report by ntp
[20:48] <lz1dev> is 2^-21
[20:48] <edmoore> ntp is useless
[20:48] <lz1dev> which is about 500ns
[20:48] <edmoore> ptp is much better
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[20:48] <edmoore> white rabbit an order of magnitude better still
[20:49] <lz1dev> whats ptp?
[20:49] <edmoore> precision time protocol
[20:49] <edmoore> ieee1588
[20:49] <edmoore> it characterises the latency over the netwrok link
[20:49] <edmoore> a series of messages pinged back and forth, to get a mean and varience on ping time
[20:49] <edmoore> then an algorithm to sync your lock with the master somewhere else on the network
[20:49] <edmoore> good for 1us
[20:50] <edmoore> i mean, easily
[20:50] <edmoore> and better with good switches
[20:50] <edmoore> it's used in industrial control mostly
[20:51] <lz1dev> surely ntp does that ?
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[20:52] <Bob_Saget> I've got one of these feeding the 10mhz input of my B200 : http://www.ebay.com/itm/10MHZ-OCXO-ISOTEMP-OCXO131-40-10-000Mhz-OCXO-OSCILLATOR-sine-wave-12V-/261359369165?pt=US_Ham_Radio_Transceivers&hash=item3cda3b7bcd
[20:52] <mikestir> ptp uses hardware timestamping in the ethernet mac though
[20:53] <edmoore> the way it does it is only good to about 1ms
[20:53] <edmoore> because it's all done by the os
[20:53] <edmoore> whereas ptp needs a specific mac that timestampes the packets in hard realtime
[20:53] <edmoore> d'oh, what mikestir said
[20:54] <lz1dev> ah ok, that makes sense
[20:56] <edmoore> a lot of uC's have ptp in their macs now
[20:56] <edmoore> eg ones i'm using
[20:56] <edmoore> so i can sync up ethernet-based datalogging boxes
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[20:56] <edmoore> so they all timestamp their samples the same even if they have notionally free-running 50kHz sampling clocks
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[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> hm german TV discusses if the recent balloonjump was a fake
[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> strange
[21:08] <ulfr> it's just a conspiracy?
[21:09] <lz1dev> lel
[21:09] <Lunar_Lander> yea I don't get it
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[21:10] <LeoBodnar> you have to altavista it
[21:10] <lz1dev> i'd ask them if they think the earth is round
[21:10] <Lunar_Lander> they have the video recordings and still say "allegedly someone from Google jumped from a balloon"
[21:10] <lz1dev> im sure they have been base jumps of a ballon
[21:10] <day> well everything is allegedly
[21:11] <LeoBodnar> and everyone is someone
[21:11] <day> there never is proof unless you saw it yourself, and even then its only proven to yourself :>
[21:11] <lz1dev> if someone jumps from balloon and there is film crew to film it, did it ever happen?
[21:11] <lz1dev> food for thought
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[21:12] <LeoBodnar> I am dionysian dichotomist myself
[21:13] <day> i love how he didnt even use a cabin. Like, Cabin? No i trade it for another 10km :D
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[21:17] <Lunar_Lander> yea xD
[21:18] <edmoore> yes, i thought that was quite sensible
[21:18] <edmoore> i thought the same thing for the baumgartner one
[21:18] <edmoore> the cabin is a huge amount of complexity when you have a suit anyway
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[21:33] <LeoBodnar> baumgartner had problems with claustrophobia
[21:33] <Upu> s/with claustrophobia/ 
[21:41] <SpeedEvil> Tehre are commercial solutions.
[21:42] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm//251307041155- skip the spacesuit and the parachute
[21:48] <Ian_> What was it? The listing has been removed . . .
[21:48] <ulfr> Fill the thing up with hydrogen and skip the balloon as well?
[21:49] <ulfr> oh wait, you have to breath as well..
[21:55] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm//251307041155
[21:57] <SpeedEvil> You can in principle breath H2/O2 just fine.
[22:00] <myself> Okay I'm sure this is described somewhere, but I'm not sure where to look. I was just looking at http://spacenear.us/tracker/flyb.php zoomed in on B-64, and it showed the projected future track (that's what the thin red line is, right?) as a little squiggle, ending just a few miles in front of the baloon's current position. Moments later, it shows the thin red line as a thousand-mile trace that arcs off into the Yucatan. What changed?
[22:01] <Upu> myself click this
[22:01] <Upu> http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/?filter=B-64
[22:01] <Upu> and then hit the HySplit button
[22:01] <Upu> the predictor on Spacenear.us isn't aware of floater flights
[22:03] <myself> So the previously short track was assuming descent at a fixed rate, given near-zero ground track speed, and now it's assuming descent while really cruising, and the habhub hysplit prediction is assuming no descent at all?
[22:03] <Upu> yeah
[22:05] <myself> oh I bet the prediction changed when the new climate models happened at the top of the hour or something :)
[22:05] <Upu> yup B-64 is in the automatic hysplit runs
[22:06] <Upu> !hysplit list
[22:06] <SpacenearUS> 03Upu: HYSPLIT available for: 03B-64, SP5NVX-12, PYTIN-2
[22:06] <myself> aha! Thanks, that 'splains it.
[22:08] <SpeedEvil> Does 'telemetry graph' work (on b64) for anyone?
[22:09] <Upu> it might work eventually
[22:09] <Upu> I don't think it was designed with this number of points in mind :)
[22:09] <Upu> yes it does
[22:09] <Upu> quite a few gaps though
[22:09] <Maxell> 1/1 01:00
[22:09] <Maxell> A script on this page may be busy, or it may have stopped responding. You can stop the script now, or you can continue to see if the script will complete.
[22:09] <Maxell> Script: http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/js/mobile.js line 1 > eval:1
[22:09] <Maxell> lol
[22:09] <Upu> use http://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/payload/ instead
[22:10] <Maxell> And then it craps out
[22:10] <Upu> http://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/payload/B-64#g/altitude
[22:10] <Upu> etc
[22:10] <Maxell> Ok, there it is :)
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> I think it's decided it likes Arizona.
[22:10] <SpeedEvil> 6.1m/s
[22:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> I suspect it maybe having memory problems the number of points to be plotted for B-64 is getting large!
[22:10] <Upu> not that bad actually
[22:11] <Upu> I've seen some 300 baud launches have more
[22:11] <Upu> 56585
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[22:14] <Maxell> no way :P
[22:14] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its just that even GE is having problems plotting the points within the refresh time
[22:16] <lz1dev> SpeedEvil: telemetry graph loads fine for me
[22:17] <lz1dev> takes about 5-6s
[22:18] <Maxell> ah wow, b-64 40395 datapoints, PicoAtlas IX 43423
[22:18] <Maxell> And the winner is....! B-6 139017
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[22:19] <SpeedEvil> lz1dev: FF ( a somewhat old version) - stalls requiring repeated 'continue' before it restarts after seemingly the next datapoint
[22:20] <lz1dev> im on quadcore so thats probably it :)
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> metoo
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[22:21] <SpeedEvil> well,dual
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> It just uses one corethouhg
[22:21] <lz1dev> i probably have a higher clock speed as well :)
[22:21] <SpeedEvil> Probably
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> But 3.4GHz i3 shoud not take that much longer than 6.4
[22:22] <lz1dev> depends, if its dual there could be other stuff taking a slice of the CPU
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[22:23] <lz1dev> ff tries to detect scripts that stall
[22:23] <lz1dev> the drawing library doesn't seem to be smart so it draws everything
[22:23] <lz1dev> and since I made it do gaps where there are no packets
[22:24] <lz1dev> it has to draw boxes for the altitude background
[22:24] <lz1dev> and thats a whole lot of work for nothing
[22:24] <SpeedEvil> ah
[22:24] <lz1dev> would be nice if it first checked the area it has to work with
[22:24] <lz1dev> and then only draw certain datapoints or something
[22:25] <lz1dev> and it has to redraw everything when I add a new packet
[22:25] <lz1dev> which is just...
[22:26] <lz1dev> but when it's closes, it doesnt redraw so you won't feel any performance hits
[22:26] <lz1dev> closed*
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[22:30] <SpeedEvil> yeah - closed and there are no issues
[22:30] <lz1dev> my phone takes 2 minutes to draw the graph :D
[22:31] <lz1dev> what a waste of quadcore cpu
[22:31] <lz1dev> silly single thread javascript
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[22:33] <Laurenceb__> SpeedEvil: majority of the altitude change is due to weather
[22:33] <LeoBodnar> was B-6 txing continuously for three days?
[22:33] <Laurenceb__> so weather prob correlates with windspeed
[22:34] <LeoBodnar> yeah it was overdramatic French tour
[22:35] <lz1dev> LeoBodnar: will we see a equator crossing?
[22:35] <LeoBodnar> when it was trolling F5APQ
[22:36] <LeoBodnar> heh
[22:37] <lz1dev> that would be hard, air doesn't move as fast there
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[22:37] <LeoBodnar> Gosh B-6 was only last summer
[22:37] <LeoBodnar> 2013
[22:38] <Laurenceb__> nobody had flown for even two full days
[22:39] <lz1dev> b-6 you say
[22:39] <lz1dev> http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/?docid=2d028a45cca5ee334e756b3523d5830c
[22:39] <lz1dev> 472d ago apperantly
[22:39] <LeoBodnar> lol Main Bus B
[22:40] <Laurenceb__> main screen turn on
[22:40] <mattbrejza> should it load a few points every few seconds?
[22:41] <lz1dev> yep
[22:41] <lz1dev> habitat really struggles when you pull out stuff
[22:42] <mattbrejza> i tohught it was fine to give you a few thousand at once?
[22:42] <Laurenceb__> is there a "simple" interface to hysplit archive?
[22:42] <Laurenceb__> i was thinking about generating a float pressur eplot
[22:42] <lz1dev> the cache directory
[22:42] <lz1dev> has indexing
[22:42] <lz1dev> you can just browse it
[22:43] <Laurenceb__> oh
[22:43] <Laurenceb__> good idea
[22:43] <lz1dev> 9.5km/h
[22:43] <lz1dev> jesus
[22:43] <lz1dev> 3.5
[22:43] <lz1dev> what is this
[22:43] <chrisstubbs> haha I like how slow habitat loads, its almost like a replay of the flight :P
[22:44] <mattbrejza> how many positions in each step?
[22:44] <craag> is this the ddos party?
[22:45] <lz1dev> 200 points per request
[22:45] <LeoBodnar> lol
[22:45] <lz1dev> 6s per request
[22:46] <lz1dev> was it a long flight?
[22:46] <SA6BSS-Mike> http://www.leobodnar.com/balloons/B-6/index.html
[22:47] <mattbrejza> im currently at berck
[22:50] <lz1dev> that altitude variation
[22:51] <craag> Who was it who had the list of receivers and email addresses in foreign countries?
[22:52] <LeoBodnar> Sven?
[22:52] <LeoBodnar> DL7AD:
[22:52] <DL7AD> yeah?
[22:52] <DL7AD> i have a regex set in my irc client to "sven" ^^
[22:52] <lz1dev> does your client make a sound?
[22:52] <craag> I just got an email from SP5NVX asking about my ukhas listeners map to track down receivers in italy
[22:53] <DL7AD> dl7ad or sven both will triiger an alarm ^^
[22:53] <lz1dev> with sound?
[22:53] <DL7AD> yeah :D
[22:53] <lz1dev> well
[22:53] <craag> Your system would be more useful
[22:53] <craag> Can I PM you his email address?
[22:54] <DL7AD> craag: eh...do you mean me?
[22:54] <craag> yeah
[22:54] <DL7AD> who?
[22:54] <craag> 'Tom' SP5NVX
[22:55] <DL7AD> yeah sure :)
[22:55] <LeoBodnar> it is the longest SP6NVX's flight to date so he is naturally excited
[22:55] <DL7AD> i will keep an eye on my mail *keeping fingers crossed*
[22:59] <LeoBodnar> SP5NVX's rather
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[23:05] <Laurenceb__> huh
[23:05] <Laurenceb__> its been dead for over a day?
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[23:09] <goopypanther> how is b-64 giving telemetry from when it was out of range, does it constantly save a decimated telemetry set and retransmit on a several day delay?
[23:10] <craag> yep
[23:10] <craag> encoded into aprs comments
[23:10] <craag> which leo then decodes and submits into habitat
[23:10] <goopypanther> oh, so thats what that is
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[23:12] <goopypanther> I take it the aprs network ignores packets with out of date timestamps
[23:12] <goopypanther> so you can't just transmit them and let aprs.fi shuffle them into the past
[23:12] <LeoBodnar> it's encoded into comment field so aprs-is just ignores it
[23:13] <craag> aprs.fi is heavily broken with regard to timestamped packets iirc
[23:13] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[23:14] <craag> / aprs implementations are heavily broken and aprs.fi has to deal with them
[23:14] <LeoBodnar> well ask Hes, he's here
[23:15] <lz1dev> well why would hte network route packets that are days old?
[23:15] <LeoBodnar> i think there are some attempts to get this fixed for balloon backlog data purposes
[23:15] <LeoBodnar> maybe because the standard has it lol
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[23:16] <LeoBodnar> not route but deliver
[23:16] <lz1dev> yep
[23:16] <LeoBodnar> it's the job of transmitter to hold on to historical data
[23:17] <lz1dev> afair there isn't a format
[23:17] <LeoBodnar> but when it emerges onto the network it has to be dealt with somehow
[23:17] <lz1dev> that has the date and time
[23:17] <lz1dev> in the same packet
[23:17] <LeoBodnar> there is
[23:17] <lz1dev> full timesamp ?
[23:18] <lz1dev> year month date hour min second?
[23:18] <lz1dev> day*
[23:18] <LeoBodnar> page 32 http://www.aprs.org/doc/APRS101.PDF
[23:19] <LeoBodnar> no the day of the month is the best you have
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[23:20] <LeoBodnar> Day/Hours/Minutes is reasonably suitable for ballooning
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[23:52] <kf7fer> So I was looking at putting an accelerometer on a tracker mostly for the "free fall" detection. Does anybody have any suggestions for something that does i2c and is fairly cheap? I was thinking of sticking with the ADXL345 but wondered if there was anything better (as in lower-power)/cheaper/smaller/free
[23:54] <daveake> that's the one I was going to suggest
[23:57] <nats`> adxl362 ?
[23:57] <nats`> for the low power part
[00:00] --- Thu Oct 30 2014