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[03:03] <BeaverOne> http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/536252747867268269/003547E5BA308D2C5340B29C4E36158ABE805EF4/
[03:06] <lz1dev> http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/3296940930316196604/BA937DD33A8820C95C6A6653000105EBC165B6DB/
[03:06] <BeaverOne> lz1dev: how'd you do it ??
[03:07] <lz1dev> http://cloud-4.steampowered.com/ugc/3296940930283885753/7BB7F56AD73246DC1F322A351E3790679FC45F67/
[03:07] <lz1dev> i used my penis for inspiration
[03:09] <BeaverOne> ...
[03:09] <BeaverOne> that's not very nice
[03:09] <BeaverOne> how'd you produce the orbit?
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[03:18] <lz1dev> you need to get into earth orbit, then you do a burn to make a transfer orbit to mun
[03:18] <lz1dev> once you are there, you do retrograde burn to make an orbit around mun
[03:24] <BeaverOne> oh
[03:25] <lz1dev> pro tip
[03:25] <lz1dev> don't try to land on the sun
[03:26] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RA4NHY after 039 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=RA4NHY
[03:28] <malclocke> landing on minmus is way easier for a first try
[03:29] <lz1dev> people keep saying that, but it's not that much extra dV for mun
[03:31] <lz1dev> probably worth checking the wiki for basics on oribal mechanics
[03:32] <malclocke> the low g makes the descent way less critical on minmus though
[03:33] <lz1dev> if you switch to ground tracking (is that right?)
[03:33] <lz1dev> you get speed relative to the ground
[03:33] <lz1dev> and it's super easy to make a perfect landing
[03:38] <malclocke> 'super easy' is I guess a subjective statement :)
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[03:39] <malclocke> my most recent triumph is rescuing Jeb from his defunct craft via a 170km jetpack flight
[03:40] <lz1dev> oh yeh, i had a bunch of missions bringing people back
[03:40] <lz1dev> from being stuck in orbit
[03:40] <lz1dev> or on mun
[03:41] <lz1dev> first attempt at mun was successful in landing, but didn't have enough dV to transfer back to Earth
[03:42] <lz1dev> the only thing when landing is to make sure it's a soft one
[03:42] <lz1dev> otherwise your ship blows up
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[04:18] Nick change: kish` -> tomcruisenose
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[05:17] <Darkside> !hysplit b-64
[05:17] <SpacenearUS> 03Darkside: HYSPLIT for 03B-64 - 12http://spacenear.us/tracker/hysplit_cache/141022-04_195572_B64.gif
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[05:24] <Elwell> I'm guessing given the intersts of people here that a 13th Oct meeting is old news, but Baroness OCathain (Chairman) came out with a classic in
[05:24] <Elwell> http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/eu-sub-b-internal-market-infrastructure-and-employment-committee/civil-use-of-remotely-piloted-aircraft-systems-rpas/oral/14467.html
[05:24] <Elwell> " I was horrified the other day when I was given a certain website to look at. I could see the roses in my garden. It was on a Google map or something, and I have no idea how it was taken. It was taken from up there. Obviously it was not a large aircraft, but this is happening. It did not fill me with a sense of security.
[05:24] <Elwell> so no HAB flights over members of the upper house please :-)
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[05:35] <ok1cdj> GM
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[06:20] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03Seed1 after 039 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=Seed1
[06:22] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03Seed2 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=Seed2
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[06:36] <SA6BSS> Upu: got an eta on pi in the sky??
[06:37] <SA6BSS> have a schoolproject askinf for help on the swe ham forum, think pisky should be perfect.
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[06:48] <eroomde> and your school project might have succeeded too, if it wasn't for those pisky kids
[06:48] <jcoxon> morning eroomde
[06:50] <eroomde> morning jcoxon
[06:50] <eroomde> all well?
[06:50] <jcoxon> yeah good thanks
[06:50] <jcoxon> you?
[06:51] <UpuWork> hi SA6BSS
[06:51] <UpuWork> I may have some actually
[06:51] <UpuWork> got one that someone said they ordered by accident ..
[06:55] <SA6BSS> ok, perfect, I do a little writeup on the forum and we´l se how it goes. tnx
[06:56] <UpuWork> I'll let you know
[07:01] <UpuWork> SA6BSS Actually I have one here which was returned as undelivered
[07:01] <UpuWork> I've been asking the customer to come back to me for a month but they haven't so if you want it I'll refund them
[07:01] Nick change: day- -> Upa
[07:03] Nick change: Upa -> day
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[07:17] <ok1cdj> is there way how to get HAB with APRS visible on http://spacenear.us/tracker/ ??
[07:18] <fsphil> yea there's a script that can be run to import it, though it needs to be started manually by one of the admins
[07:20] <ok1cdj> ok and who is admin :-)
[07:20] <UpuWork> o7
[07:20] <UpuWork> whats the call sign and when do you want it runnig
[07:20] <fsphil> him up there ^
[07:20] <fsphil> or asking in #habhub
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[07:22] <ok1cdj> ok, it will be probably in saturday if weather permit
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[07:29] <ok1cdj> in saturday will be Stratocaching event in OK.. more info http://stratocaching.idnes.cz/english
[07:29] <ok1cdj> or ask me..
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[08:01] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03OK1ALX_chase after 0311 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=OK1ALX_chase
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[10:57] Nick change: day -> robhol
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[11:04] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03chris_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=chris_chase
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[11:21] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/RPvg27T.jpg
[11:22] <Laurenceb> the apartment of fail is open
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[11:27] <nats`> oO
[11:29] <SpeedEvil> Wut
[11:30] <SpeedEvil> I see no fixings in the footing
[11:33] <tweetBot> @AMSAT_UK: Australian solar powered pico balloon flight test weak signals http://t.co/jiqotE8WV4 #amsat #hamradio #hamr #ukhas #wspr #wsjt
[11:34] <Laurenceb> wspr?!
[11:35] <Laurenceb> oh i missed this
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[11:37] <craag> leading zero bug on the gps telem?
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[11:40] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb: http://www.zonaeuropa.com/200906c.brief.htm
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> Scroll down a little
[11:40] <SpeedEvil> For more of the above
[11:41] <Laurenceb> wtf
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> The report said the collapse was caused by earth, excavated to make a 4.6-metre deep pit for an underground car park alongside the building, being piled to depths of up to 10 metres on the other side of the structure. The weight of the pile created a "pressure differential" which led to a shift in the soil structure, eventually weakening the foundations and causing them to fail. This situation "may" have been aggravated by several days of
[11:42] <SpeedEvil> heavy rain leading up to the collapse, but investigators would not say whether this was a crucial factor. The report said the construction company - Shanghai Zhongxin Construction - "did not consider clearly" that the earth pile could have such a devastating effect.
[11:44] <Laurenceb> those piles dont look very strong at all
[11:46] Action: Laurenceb takes a look at wsprnet
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> yeah - but they're ony meant to withstand tensile loads
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> they were sheared by lateral forces
[11:47] <SpeedEvil> The pile of crap and hole pushed the building sideways
[11:48] <Laurenceb> even so
[11:48] <Laurenceb> id have expected them to be much thicker
[11:48] <Laurenceb> and not hollow :P
[11:48] <Laurenceb> 2014-10-19 07:52 VK3YT 14.097167 -15 0 QF51 0.01 ON7KO JO21ce 17075 309
[11:48] <Laurenceb> holy shit
[11:49] <Laurenceb> presumably thats whilst it was airborne
[11:51] <Laurenceb> received in Belgium :D
[11:51] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:51] <Laurenceb> using 10mW
[11:51] <VK2FAK-John> there were some very good distance spots from that balloon...there were 2 launched over the weeked
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[11:51] <VK2FAK-John> no....it was a 25mW payload
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[11:53] <Laurenceb> according to wspr it was 10mW on the 20m band
[11:54] <Laurenceb> looks like it was multi band
[11:54] <VK2FAK-John> yes Andy had it working on 20m and 30m
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[11:55] <Laurenceb> http://f-picture.net/lfp/s017.radikal.ru/i442/1410/d1/2900a66ed80f.gif/htm
[11:55] <VK2FAK-John> the one launched on Saturday...operated using JT65 and WSPR......the sunday Balloon used JT9 and WSPR..
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[11:56] <Laurenceb> ok
[11:56] <Laurenceb> this looks amazing
[11:56] <Laurenceb> trailing dipole antenna?
[11:56] <VK2FAK-John> Olivia was also used, but was very hard to get a good decode even with a strong signal
[11:57] <Laurenceb> i see
[11:57] <Laurenceb> so basically it could be flying anywhere and still decode in Belgium :P
[11:57] <fsphil> normal enough for HF
[11:58] <VK2FAK-John> thats the idea
[11:58] <Laurenceb> fsphil: yeah but most people use a lot more tx power for WSPR
[11:58] <Laurenceb> it wasnt clear if it was doable
[11:58] <Laurenceb> looks like airborne antenna does help a lot, even for HF
[11:59] <VK2FAK-John> NZ was still getting a good signal when is was only 100ft of so off the ground.....and the Saturday Balloon was found on Monday so he will get that back
[11:59] <theRealSIbot> In real units: 100 ft = 30 m
[11:59] <Laurenceb> interesting
[11:59] <Laurenceb> i was looking at an electrically shortened antenna for 20m
[11:59] <Laurenceb> its doable in <2m length
[11:59] <Laurenceb> but rather heavy :S
[12:01] <VK2FAK-John> I am not sure...but the antenna use was not tuned for either band
[12:02] <Laurenceb> oh wow
[12:02] <Laurenceb> how long was it?
[12:03] <eroomde> Laurenceb, what's that gif?
[12:03] <Laurenceb> express-am6 manoeuvring
[12:05] <VK2FAK-John> not sure...but this is what Andy said about it......"Antenna on the balloon will be unmatched dipole, ie. two lengths of wire a few meters each."
[12:06] <Laurenceb> ah
[12:06] <Laurenceb> even more impressive then
[12:07] <Laurenceb> i guess its possible to launch a dipole thats deployed over international waters
[12:08] <tweetBot> @Project_HAB: Two successful HAB Flights for JOTA 2014: http://t.co/kujFySdbM3 #hamr #HAB #UKHAS
[12:08] <VK2FAK-John> it was good, it seemed the further away stations were getting great signal strength...while with about 500km stuggled...line of sight work of course
[12:09] <Laurenceb> yeah thats ionospheric bounce
[12:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03CALLSIGN123_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=CALLSIGN123_chase
[12:22] <Laurenceb> can anyone recommend something other than inkscape for editing eps files on windows?
[12:25] <tomcruisenose> no
[12:29] <Steve_G0TDJ> Laurenceb: There's no substitute for Adobe Illustrator - What are you rying to do?
[12:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Paint Shop Pro can read and write EPS files, I do all my editing in PSP but only rarely need to use eps files.
[12:30] <Laurenceb> alter some text
[12:30] <Laurenceb> apparently inkscape is "giving errors"
[12:30] <Steve_G0TDJ> Can I help at all?
[12:30] <Laurenceb> im not sure i can help myself...
[12:30] <Laurenceb> trying to help some n00b windows users here
[12:30] <Laurenceb> over the phone...
[12:31] <Steve_G0TDJ> Ah right.
[12:31] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'm not familiar with InkScape, sorry
[12:32] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'd be happy to do the alteration for you on Illustrator if it would help.
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[12:37] <eroomde> Laurenceb, there are two dots
[12:37] <eroomde> one doesn't seem to manouvre, the other does
[12:37] <eroomde> are they both sats?
[12:37] <eroomde> is one an upper stage?
[12:38] <Laurenceb> one is the proton upper stage
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[12:38] <eroomde> but it's the sat that's doing the manouvering?
[12:38] <Laurenceb> aiui yes
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[12:38] <eroomde> ah right
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[12:39] <eroomde> i don't know much about proton upper stages
[12:40] <eroomde> i knew a bit about the fregat used in soyuz and zenit
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[12:40] <eroomde> and of course it was in the news quite recently because it was responsible for dumping the galileo sats into the wrong orbits
[12:40] <eroomde> as ones of its propellent lines froze
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[12:49] <nickjohnson> Upu suggested that some in here might know enough about analog signal chains to help me. I'm building a simple board around the AD9838 DDS (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1391590.pdf) and I need to figure out how best to filter and bias the output
[12:50] <nickjohnson> The DDS runs off 5v, and the output is complementary 0-4mA currents, with a compliance range of 0-8V. I want to convert this to a voltage centered around GND or VDD/2, and filter it steeply with a ~2MHz cutoff.
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[12:51] <nickjohnson> Any suggestions on the best way to approach this? Active filters are fine, but ideally the opamps shouldn't cost more than the original DDS :)
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[12:52] <nickjohnson> Presently I've only got gnd and 5v rails, but I can introduce a rail splitter for VCC/2, or a capacitative inverter for -5V if need be.
[12:54] <eroomde> what's the app?
[12:55] <eroomde> if the sample rate is 8MHz and you want to produce signals with 2MHz bandwidth, you almost certainly want active filters, as you'll need quite a high rolloff to achieve that
[12:55] <nickjohnson> A straightforward low frequency signal generator
[12:55] <nickjohnson> The sample rate is 16MHz
[12:55] <eroomde> oh i misread the datasheet
[12:55] <eroomde> sorry
[12:55] <eroomde> output frquency up to 8MHz, ah yes
[12:56] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03RA4NHY after 039 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=RA4NHY
[12:56] <nickjohnson> Obviously I'd like to have as steep a rolloff as possible, since that makes a wider frequency range available to users
[12:56] <eroomde> ok, well you'll still want active filters i think, as much for having a decently low output impedance as anything else
[12:56] <nickjohnson> But I figure 2MHz is a reasonable place to start
[12:56] <nickjohnson> Yes, I agree
[12:56] <eroomde> do you care about dc accuracy?
[12:57] <nickjohnson> Well, I'd like it to be well centered around some reference rail
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[12:57] <eroomde> sure, but I mean if your user says 1Vpp do you care if he gets 1.1Vpp?
[12:57] <eroomde> or do you want all 10 bits tranmitted through faithfully?
[12:57] <eroomde> or rather, without offsets
[12:58] <talsit_roam> Uuuuu... eroomde, long time!
[12:58] <eroomde> 1.1Vpp is obviously an exageration, if i bought a siggen that produced 1.1V when i asked for 1V i'd take it apart to see what had broken
[12:58] <nickjohnson> Ah, right
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[12:59] <nickjohnson> Are you asking if the gain across the frequency range needs to be consistent?
[12:59] <nickjohnson> Because if it's just a scaling error, that can be calibrated for
[12:59] <eroomde> hmm sort of
[12:59] <eroomde> so what i'm getting at is, op-amps have input offset voltages
[13:00] <eroomde> so if you chain a bunch up as an active filter, you might sum them all up and get a few mV off what you want, as a function of temperature, frequency and so on
[13:00] <nickjohnson> Ah, right
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[13:00] <nickjohnson> I'm more concerned about frequency stability than absolute amplitude
[13:00] <eroomde> i'm wondering how much of a problem that is - some topologies of op-amp are just inherently better for dc performance, like jfet amplifiers
[13:00] <nickjohnson> Though for frequency sweeps etc, it will be an asset to keep the amplitude as consistent as possible
[13:00] <eroomde> oh well frequency stability is entirely a function of your clock and dds
[13:01] <nickjohnson> Yup, I know :)
[13:01] <eroomde> the output filter will do basically nothing to it
[13:01] <nickjohnson> Basically, I'm building a simple experimentation kit around an AVR and low end DDS. I want it to be usable as a basic siggen for about 0-2MHz, and the output needs to be what you'd expect - centered around the connector's gnd and fairly consistent.
[13:01] <UpuWork> NSFW due to understandable swear http://vimeo.com/41699601
[13:02] <UpuWork> Ed's on the left
[13:02] <UpuWork> wrong channel but hi Ed
[13:02] <eroomde> why is this relevent?
[13:02] <eroomde> nickjohnson knows who i am
[13:02] <UpuWork> You were being discussed in hackvana
[13:02] <eroomde> we went for coffee in hoxton once
[13:02] <UpuWork> mentioning the rocket stuff
[13:02] <UpuWork> and I like that video
[13:02] <nickjohnson> UpuWork: Yup, I just didn't know who you meant by ed.
[13:02] <nickjohnson> Since I think of him as eroomde
[13:03] <nickjohnson> (Also, why aren't you in any channel I hang out in anymore, eroomde?) :P
[13:03] <eroomde> or just 'moody' for short since my divorce from mitch
[13:03] <UpuWork> lol
[13:03] <nickjohnson> heh
[13:03] <nickjohnson> That answers my last question
[13:03] <eroomde> i got annoyed with the service i got from mitch once, so i'm not using him for pcbs anymore
[13:03] <eroomde> however i do miss the chat
[13:03] <nickjohnson> ah
[13:04] <nickjohnson> I highly recommend #tymkrs on AfterNET for this sort of conversation, too
[13:04] <nickjohnson> Arguably even better than #hackvana
[13:04] <eroomde> cool
[13:04] <eroomde> ok so
[13:04] <eroomde> if you want to be centered on gnd, you'll need a double-sided supply, sorry if that's obvious
[13:04] <nickjohnson> So, the way I see it, I have two or three problems: Converting complementary current outputs to a bipolar voltage signal, and filtering that signal.
[13:04] <nickjohnson> That or a rail splitter, right?
[13:04] <nickjohnson> I've also seen solutions that use a center tapped RF transformer to generate a bipolar output
[13:05] <eroomde> ok, comp current outs to voltage is faiely easy - you just connect up a precision resistor between the two outputs
[13:05] <eroomde> then you get a voltage across that resistor
[13:05] <nickjohnson> Though that doesn't seem to work well for low frequencies
[13:05] <eroomde> no indeed it won't - though nice for rf as you realise
[13:05] <nickjohnson> Right, I know that, but the compliance voltage is only 0-0.8V, so I can't just convert it directly to a VCC/2 or GND centered bipolar voltage.
[13:06] <eroomde> sure, so you'll probably need a gain stage
[13:06] <nickjohnson> If I just use a resistor, I get a signal centered around the (unavailable) Vmax / 2
[13:06] <eroomde> which can also do offsetting
[13:06] <nickjohnson> Okay. How do I know what to offset by, though, if I don't have a voltage reference for the center?
[13:07] <eroomde> i'm still not quite clear - do you eventually want the output to have 0 DC bias?
[13:07] <eroomde> i.e. centered around gnd
[13:07] <nickjohnson> correct
[13:07] <nickjohnson> Or centered around VCC/2, and I can just use VCC/2 as the ground connector on the BNC
[13:07] <nickjohnson> I don't care what it's centered around as long as it's a stable rail
[13:08] <nickjohnson> Page 30 of this DS has a balanced-current-to-single-ended-voltage converter: http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/ds/symlink/dsd1796.pdf
[13:08] <nickjohnson> But it seems to make some assumptions about bipolar supplies I can't quite determine.
[13:08] <eroomde> ok, though be wary with vcc/2 if there's no ac coupling
[13:08] <eroomde> what i mean is
[13:09] <nickjohnson> Or maybe it's not as mysterious as I thought
[13:09] <eroomde> if this is to be used in a piece of test equipment, you'd expect the output to be isolated
[13:09] <eroomde> so you can't get grounds at different potentials making horrible ground loops
[13:09] <nickjohnson> So, it'll be a USB powered device. The cheap ass solution is "use a laptop" ;)
[13:09] <eroomde> so if you siggen defines gnd as vcc/2, it must never be connected to 'gnd' defined by the thing powering it, through your device under test or whatever
[13:10] <nickjohnson> Right, good point.
[13:10] <eroomde> i use isolated dc/dc converters on my instrumentation for this reason
[13:10] <eroomde> but, cxheapass
[13:10] <eroomde> as you say
[13:10] <nickjohnson> Like I said, the goal is to make a really cheap and simple low frequency siggen experimentation board
[13:10] <eroomde> cheapass*
[13:10] <nickjohnson> But I see your point - so generating a negative rail seems like a better bet.
[13:11] <eroomde> yeah
[13:11] <nickjohnson> Will the schematic I linked to in that datasheet work with two positive (but complementary) currents as Iout+ and Iout-? Is it a reasonable approach?
[13:11] <eroomde> you can get fairly decent cheapish integrated dc-dc converters that'll produce an isolated dual rail output for a simple dc input
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[13:11] <nickjohnson> I'm pretty sure by now that the answer to the first question is "yes"
[13:12] <nickjohnson> Yeah, I know, I used one in the Re:load Pro :P
[13:12] <nickjohnson> Well, the single-rail version of one
[13:12] <nickjohnson> But I think in this case a capacitative inverter will be the simpler solution
[13:12] <nickjohnson> since we're forgoing isolation
[13:12] <eroomde> yeah, that design doesn't look batter, though off the top of my head those Rs and Cs look like they have a much lower freq cutoff that you want
[13:13] <eroomde> batty*
[13:13] <eroomde> oh it says, fc=50kHz
[13:13] <eroomde> there you go
[13:13] <nickjohnson> Yeah, ignoring the values for a moment
[13:13] <eroomde> your output swing won't be able to get to your rails, you probably realise
[13:13] <nickjohnson> Though I'm not sure how to tune it for my frequency requirements other than tweak and simulate
[13:13] <nickjohnson> Yup
[13:13] <eroomde> you can calculate
[13:13] <nickjohnson> A couple of Vpp will probably suffice, and I suspect I can get more than that
[13:14] <eroomde> are you only ever producing one sinusoid at a time?
[13:14] <eroomde> or are you doing things like triangular or square waves?
[13:14] <nickjohnson> I've seen the calculations for regular filters, but never for a transimpedance amp or a differential amp
[13:14] <nickjohnson> Sin or triangle waves via the filter
[13:14] <nickjohnson> Square waves I'll provide a separate logic-level output for
[13:14] <nickjohnson> And there may be PSK or ASK
[13:14] <eroomde> this governs the choice of filter style - eg butterworth has better rolloff but non-flat group delay, whereas bessel is a slower rolloff but flat group delay
[13:14] <nickjohnson> er, PSK or FSK rather
[13:14] <eroomde> you'll want bessel then for triangles
[13:15] <nickjohnson> Good point
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[13:15] <eroomde> otherwise you'll get weird merigue peaks or something
[13:15] <eroomde> here's a useful thing
[13:15] <eroomde> microchip make a free bit of software called filterlab
[13:15] <eroomde> it makes you schematics of LP, HP, BP, butterworth/bessel/chebyshev etc
[13:15] <eroomde> calcs all the parts values
[13:16] <eroomde> you just enter the order and cutoff freq and so on
[13:16] <nickjohnson> Neat. Analog have something similar, though it only does active filters based on their opamps.
[13:16] <eroomde> sure, this is somewhat op-amp agnostic
[13:16] <eroomde> you just have to make sure you get one with sufficient GBW
[13:16] <nickjohnson> I'm not sure how to translate the results I get into something as seemingly exotic as that transimpedance-then-difference-amp configuration
[13:18] <eroomde> indeed, you could instead use an instrumentation amp as the first stage
[13:19] <eroomde> so, a dropper resistor out the iouts, into an instrumentation amp which doesn't care about the common mode
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[13:19] <eroomde> you can then use the in-amps output offset pin to put the output where you like
[13:19] <eroomde> eg around gnd
[13:19] <nickjohnson> Oh, that's a really good point
[13:19] <nickjohnson> Or any differential amplifier, surely?
[13:19] <eroomde> then have a conventional voltage based low pass filter network after
[13:19] <eroomde> yes sure
[13:19] <nickjohnson> It doesn't have to be an instrumentation amp?
[13:20] <eroomde> i'm just an instrumwentation guy so i go for the more expensive options instinctively
[13:20] <nickjohnson> Not sure why I didn't figure that earlier :)
[13:20] <nickjohnson> heh
[13:20] <nickjohnson> So, the reason they use transimpedance amps there is presumably to get the extra active filtering stages in?
[13:20] <nickjohnson> Rather than just rectifying and feeding straight into the difference amp?
[13:20] <eroomde> yes i guess so
[13:20] <nickjohnson> What would you do?
[13:21] <eroomde> for low BOM cost/parts count, the transimpedence stage probably has something going for it
[13:21] <nickjohnson> Well, also, having the transimpedance amp means not worrying about compliance voltages, since it holds its input at 0v, I guess
[13:21] <nickjohnson> Really? It adds 2 more amps.
[13:22] <eroomde> sure but that has some filtering in too
[13:22] <eroomde> in that diagram
[13:22] <eroomde> at least
[13:22] <nickjohnson> *nods*
[13:22] <eroomde> and difference amps are really several op-amps in one package :)
[13:23] <eroomde> i dunno, i guess you'd have to actually design an instance of each and then work it out with the farnell catalogue
[13:23] <nickjohnson> True
[13:23] <nickjohnson> I'd rather someone who knows more than me tell me what to do ;)
[13:23] <eroomde> i'd probably do difference then conventional voltage-based fir
[13:23] <nickjohnson> There we go!
[13:23] <eroomde> something like a 4-pole bessel, which you can do with 2 additional op-amps
[13:23] <eroomde> which can likely come in one package
[13:23] <nickjohnson> *nods*
[13:23] <nickjohnson> And can hopefully be affordable :P
[13:24] <eroomde> so the AD8510/8512/8513 are nice jfet opamps
[13:24] <eroomde> i use them for anti-alias filters
[13:24] <eroomde> they are the single/dual/quad parts respectively
[13:24] <eroomde> very good dc offset performance
[13:24] <nickjohnson> They're a bit on the pricey side
[13:24] <nickjohnson> About the same price as the DDS
[13:24] <eroomde> so 1V in at the beginning of the chain should come out as 1V, not 1.01V
[13:24] <eroomde> sure
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[13:24] <eroomde> i'm just brain dumping
[13:25] <nickjohnson> Yup, thanks
[13:25] <eroomde> but jfet amplifers might be good for the voltage performance, even if not those rolls royce ones
[13:25] <nickjohnson> JFET amplifiers are preferred because of low offset voltage and input current, I assume?
[13:26] <eroomde> talsit_roam, hello btw!
[13:26] <eroomde> nickjohnson, exactly
[13:26] <eroomde> it's the low input offset voltage specifically
[13:26] <nickjohnson> I did think that those would not be important characteristics with low or unity gain, though
[13:26] <eroomde> bias currents are not such a big deal as the output from the difference amp will be nice and low impedence
[13:26] <nickjohnson> yeah
[13:27] <eroomde> sure, the input offset is a big deal for me even with unity gain, but that's because we're doing sorta 24bit measurements
[13:27] <eroomde> not a thing for 10bit
[13:27] <eroomde> so perhaps ignore me on that one
[13:28] <eroomde> so yeah, i guess just spend some time with ADs opa-mp parametric search to find something in the top-right hand corner of your parameter space
[13:29] <nickjohnson> Looking at Farnell, 4MHz+ diff amps aren't the cheapest either
[13:29] <nickjohnson> So that's another argument in favor of the transimpedance amps
[13:30] <eroomde> oh yeah, of course
[13:30] <eroomde> 16MHz
[13:30] <eroomde> yes
[13:30] <eroomde> transimp
[13:31] <nickjohnson> I don't need more than 8MHz GBW, do I?
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[13:31] <eroomde> you don't in theory, though some overhead might be nice
[13:31] <eroomde> also
[13:32] <eroomde> check the slew rate
[13:32] <eroomde> as you can often max out on the slew before getting near the theoretical bandwidth limit
[13:33] <nickjohnson> Instrumentation amps are actually more affordable for this than difference amps
[13:33] <nickjohnson> Example: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1503745.pdf
[13:33] <nickjohnson> Blah, Farnell lied, that's not 35MHz
[13:33] <eroomde> bandwidth
[13:33] <eroomde> yeah
[13:33] <eroomde> what's the largest P/P you'll be doing?
[13:33] <eroomde> 10V?
[13:34] <nickjohnson> Wait, yes it is
[13:34] <eroomde> 5V?
[13:34] <nickjohnson> 5v would be fine
[13:34] <nickjohnson> I suspect
[13:34] <nickjohnson> I've never designed a siggen before :P
[13:34] <eroomde> that sounds fine
[13:35] <nickjohnson> Am I likely to be able to use the same opamp for the transimpedance amps as the final amplifier? Or will they have conflicting requirements?
[13:35] <eroomde> so a 5V pp sinewave at 2MHz is, by my calc, 62V/uS slew
[13:35] <nickjohnson> It'd be nice to be able to use a single quad opamp
[13:35] <eroomde> so you need to make sure your amp can do that
[13:35] <nickjohnson> *nods*
[13:35] <eroomde> yes i suspect you can do that
[13:35] <eroomde> the quad thing
[13:35] <eroomde> it's probably a nice way of doing things
[13:36] <nickjohnson> I could even use the fourth amp for another stage of filtering, I guess
[13:37] <eroomde> btw that's quite a high slew rate
[13:37] <nickjohnson> okay
[13:37] <eroomde> for an int amp anyway, i think
[13:37] <nickjohnson> I've abandoned using an instrumentation amp in favor of the transimpedance layout :)
[13:37] <eroomde> yep cool
[13:38] <nickjohnson> So, if I'm using one of these tools to generate a filter design, is applying one stage to the differential amp in that example circuit as simple as duplicating all the feedback components for high side and low side?
[13:38] <nickjohnson> In the datasheet schematic they're identical on the positive feedback and the gnd
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[13:42] <eroomde> i think topologies for transimp feedback are different
[13:42] <eroomde> if i was breadboaring this, i'd have a self contained transimp stage then a self contained low pass stage, just to get a baseline
[13:42] <nickjohnson> That was my followup question
[13:43] <nickjohnson> But in that example schematic there's a transimpedance amp on each output, then a single opamp configured as a differential amp
[13:43] <nickjohnson> That last one looks to be using a standard multitap filter configuration, only doubled for + and -. Is that righT?
[13:44] <eroomde> yep
[13:44] <eroomde> but i couldn't say for sure that that's the topology you want wrt group delay
[13:45] <nickjohnson> True
[13:45] <nickjohnson> Time to start messing around in LTSpice, I guess
[13:45] <eroomde> yeah
[13:45] <eroomde> also
[13:45] <nickjohnson> Am I correct that "group delay" is another way of saying "variation in phase with frequency"?
[13:45] <eroomde> yes exactly
[13:45] <eroomde> phase lag, to be pedantic
[13:46] <nickjohnson> right
[13:46] <eroomde> but i wanted to say, swinging 5V about at 2MHz (and depending on the load its driving, eg 50-ohm?) is not small bananas
[13:46] <nickjohnson> *nods*
[13:47] <nickjohnson> I'm happy to restrict that, either at high frequency or full-stop
[13:47] <nickjohnson> The way I understand it, a siggen is often useful at just 1vp-p and less.
[13:47] <eroomde> so while the high-speed opamps for the job exist, there might be an arguement to keep the gain much lower through the initial stages
[13:47] <nats`> <nickjohnson> Time to start messing around in LTSpice, I guess <= it's a good idea but take really great care of what op amp model you take
[13:47] <eroomde> then have a transistor output stage
[13:47] <nickjohnson> nats`: Yup :)
[13:47] <nats`> if possible find one fitting your need at linear tec
[13:47] <nats`> many spice model for op amp are borked
[13:48] <nats`> they don't use all the trick and optimisation of ltspice
[13:48] <eroomde> i suspect that would certainly be cheaper anyway
[13:48] <nickjohnson> eroomde: I'd rather decrease my requirements to suit a cheap opamp. I'd be happy with 3VP-P, or even 3VP-P at low frequencies and less at high frequencies.
[13:48] <nickjohnson> A parametric search on Analog's site turns up this as one of the cheapest options that meets requirements: http://www.analog.com/static/imported-files/data_sheets/ADA4851-1_4851-2_4851-4.pdf
[13:48] <nickjohnson> nats`: Good idea, re searching LT's site
[13:49] <eroomde> oh yes
[13:49] <eroomde> nice and high speed
[13:49] <eroomde> that should hopefully do you
[13:49] <eroomde> check what it can drive as a load
[13:49] <nickjohnson> It's pricier than I'd like, but it's a good start
[13:49] <nats`> put a buffer stage on output
[13:49] <eroomde> yeah exactly
[13:50] <nats`> precise op amp are always bad at driving load
[13:50] <nickjohnson> Short-Circuit Current Sinking/sourcing 90/70 mA
[13:50] <nats`> not that bad :)
[13:50] <eroomde> i don't know your market, but i strongly suspect that people would want to be able to drive 50-ohm loads
[13:51] <nats`> it's too low so
[13:51] <eroomde> or reactive loads
[13:51] <eroomde> they'll ruin your day
[13:51] <eroomde> in that situation my freflex is to grab an LT1010
[13:51] <eroomde> as that will sorte everything as a buffer
[13:51] <nickjohnson> Actually, it's 125/110 with +-5v supplies
[13:51] <eroomde> there is almost certainly a modern equivelent from TI for 1/20th the price
[13:51] <nickjohnson> eroomde: I'm trying to keep part count and cost down, though
[13:51] <eroomde> see above
[13:52] <nickjohnson> Yeah, I mean that I'd rather not add a buffer at all if I can get away with it :P
[13:52] <eroomde> but yeah, if it works fine as-is, one can't complain
[13:52] <eroomde> it's all gravy
[13:52] <nats`> buf634 first place in my mind :)
[13:52] <nats`> unity gain up to 100+MHz :)
[13:53] <nickjohnson> Okay, I'm going to target 3Vpp at 2MHz into 50 ohms as my goal. But like I said, I'm flexible.
[13:53] <eroomde> sure
[13:53] <nats`> don't bend too much you'll collapse :D
[13:53] <eroomde> breadboard somt up and see what happens
[13:53] <nickjohnson> heh
[13:53] <eroomde> always fun
[13:53] <nickjohnson> Breadboard? Nah, circuit fab ;)
[13:53] <eroomde> lol yes
[13:53] <nickjohnson> PCB fab rather
[13:53] <nats`> uhhh on breadboard you can't hope for more than few MHz anyway :)
[13:53] <eroomde> i was speaking colloquially
[13:53] <nickjohnson> Right :)
[13:53] <eroomde> you can do dead-bug prototyping on copper clad
[13:54] <nats`> keep the buf634 reference in a corner of your head
[13:54] <eroomde> for jim-williams cred
[13:54] <nats`> it'an helpful part to save a design
[13:54] <eroomde> yes, tho buf634 and lt1010s are about the same price
[13:54] <nickjohnson> Basically, the brief is "wouldn't it be neat if there was a cheap AVR/Arduino board that you could use to play around with signal generation and frequency counting on?"
[13:54] <eroomde> but, they're both exactly the sort of buffer that you want if it turns out that op-amp needs some help
[13:54] <nickjohnson> *nods*
[13:54] <eroomde> yeah, i can definitely see the gap you're aiming for
[13:55] <nats`> nickjohnson you'll quickly leave it in fact
[13:55] <eroomde> you have my bow
[13:55] <nickjohnson> Not just as a product - I want to play, too. :)
[13:55] <nickjohnson> nats`: Leave what?
[13:55] <nats`> if you really want to play with signal you'll quickly go upper level
[13:55] <nickjohnson> oh, right
[13:55] <nickjohnson> Sure
[13:55] <nickjohnson> I can build the "pro" version later ;)
[13:55] <nats`> in fact everything an arduino could do on that field is easier to simulate
[13:55] <nats`> scilab gnuradioetc..... so much possibility :)
[13:56] <eroomde> i have no money for test equipment atm
[13:56] <eroomde> it's upsetting
[13:57] <nickjohnson> How did you calculate that V/uS figure?
[13:57] <nickjohnson> A naive calculation of 10 volts * 2 megahertz in volts per microsecond gives me 20V/uS
[13:57] <eroomde> ah yes
[13:57] <eroomde> but
[13:57] <eroomde> visualise a sinewave
[13:57] Action: nickjohnson does so
[13:58] <eroomde> it's not a straight line from +5V to -5V
[13:58] <eroomde> it starts flat then goes steep then goes flat again
[13:58] <nickjohnson> Ah, true, its peak rate of change is much faster than that
[13:58] <eroomde> the slew rate max is the greatest slope of the sine wave
[13:58] <eroomde> which is just cos
[13:58] <eroomde> anyway
[13:58] <nickjohnson> So it's pi * 10v * 2 mhz
[13:58] <eroomde> it's 2*pi*f*V
[13:58] <eroomde> yeah
[13:58] <eroomde> 2*pi
[13:59] <nickjohnson> Oops ,right
[13:59] <eroomde> to convert to radians
[13:59] <nickjohnson> I went "hm, what would that figure be? I bet it's something to do with pi!"
[13:59] <eroomde> something like those buffers can do like 2000V/uS
[13:59] <eroomde> and drive very reactive loads
[13:59] <eroomde> fixed unity gain
[14:00] <nickjohnson> Even with relaxed requirements to 37v/uS, that opamp still comes out on top on Analog's site
[14:00] <nickjohnson> Could you use the buffer as a stage in your filter? Or would that be a bad idea?
[14:00] <eroomde> i'm not sure it'd serve any purpose
[14:01] <nats`> nickjohnson it's almost made for that :)
[14:01] <nickjohnson> nats`: Which is made for what?
[14:01] <nats`> but take care to not change the gain by error
[14:01] <nats`> buffer for filtering
[14:01] <nickjohnson> Ah, right
[14:01] <nats`> other interesting stuff you may have not noticed
[14:01] <nats`> all the BW and slew rate information are given for unity gain
[14:02] <nats`> and collapse really quickly
[14:02] <eroomde> yeah, they all have fixed unity gain usually
[14:02] <eroomde> the video buffers
[14:02] <nats`> so it explains why it's better to separate amp and processing
[14:02] <nats`> you amplify with no load to relax constraint
[14:02] <nats`> and after you drive hard without amplification constraint
[14:03] <eroomde> the reason they exist is because a long length of coax wire, say a video cable, looks basically just like a capacitor to a fast signal
[14:03] <eroomde> which will make any output stages unstable
[14:03] <nickjohnson> *nods*
[14:03] <nickjohnson> Final question, any reason not to use a capacitative inverter to generate the negative rail?
[14:03] <eroomde> so these buffers are just extremely stiff ways of driving lots of current at high speed to get the signal down the cable
[14:04] <nats`> yep nickjohnson it's inducing noise and other crap
[14:04] <nats`> just use single supply with biasing
[14:04] <eroomde> so long as it's not too noisy and can supply the current, you'll be ok
[14:04] <nickjohnson> My only single supply is 5v
[14:04] <nats`> ti as some great pdf on converting symmetric op amp circuit to single supply
[14:04] <eroomde> but switched capacitors are often not great on both those counts
[14:05] <nats`> I would definitely make a boost to 10V and filter the 12V
[14:05] <nats`> and having the center point of the op amp ad VCC/2
[14:06] <nats`> http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt189/slyt189.pdf
[14:06] <eroomde> nats`, remembering it's dc coupled into the rest of his system
[14:06] <nickjohnson> Then I need a stable VCC/2 reference
[14:06] <nickjohnson> And eroomde pointed out earlier that it introduces potential ground loops
[14:06] <eroomde> op-amps can make you those
[14:06] <nickjohnson> true
[14:06] <eroomde> if you've a spare
[14:06] <nickjohnson> http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/620567fc.pdf seems to be LT's answer to that Analog part
[14:07] <nats`> https://courses.cit.cornell.edu/bionb440/datasheets/SingleSupply.pdf
[14:07] <nickjohnson> I think I've seen that
[14:07] <nickjohnson> But if I'm going to introduce a switching converter, why not just use an inverting one and generate a -5 rail?
[14:08] <nats`> nickjohnson now you're there why not using a 5v op amp
[14:08] <eroomde> that's a nice part
[14:08] <eroomde> from linear
[14:08] <nickjohnson> eroomde: Any thoughts on if it's better or worse than the Analog one?
[14:08] <nats`> you'll find many high speed op amp in low voltage now
[14:09] <eroomde> the input offset isn't so good
[14:09] <nickjohnson> nats`: If I use a single 5v supply, my output swing is limited by how close to the rail it can get
[14:09] <eroomde> but equally, they're all drawn from a distribution
[14:09] <nickjohnson> *nods*
[14:09] <eroomde> and they're pretty close
[14:10] <nickjohnson> And LTSpice probably has a model for this one
[14:10] <nats`> nickjohnson take a rail to rail op amp
[14:10] <eroomde> both those are
[14:10] <nickjohnson> yup
[14:11] <nats`> <nickjohnson> nats`: If I use a single 5v supply, my output swing is limited by how close to the rail it can get <= my idea here is make a 5v stage and after put a buffer
[14:11] <nickjohnson> nats`: How does the buffer help? The amps feeding it have to have the same output range as it, don't they?
[14:12] <eroomde> those amps can drive 50 ohm loads i think
[14:12] <nats`> you enter with a divider
[14:12] <nats`> to go in the 5V range
[14:12] <eroomde> buffers can do it even more so, but that might not be necessary given those specific op-amps look good
[14:12] <nats`> in fact what is your input ?
[14:12] <nats`> because it may be overdesigning at his best :D
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[14:13] <nickjohnson> eroomde: The LT one specifies an output voltage swing of 3.8-4.35V on +-5v at 25mA
[14:13] <nickjohnson> The Analog one doesn't specify that, but has a much better short circuit current than the LT one
[14:13] Nick change: BrainDamage_ -> BrainDamage
[14:13] <nickjohnson> nats`: Output of a DDS chip, complementary currents.
[14:14] <nickjohnson> eroomde: What do you think of the supply rail dilemma? Generate -5V? How? Or go back to VCC/2?
[14:14] <nats`> so if your dds range is 0-5v take a rail to rail 5v amp
[14:14] <nats`> I'm not sure you'll notice the distortion of the amp
[14:14] <nats`> in your application it shouldn't matter much
[14:15] <eroomde> I'd *really* want some isolation if you're doing vcc/2
[14:15] <nickjohnson> nats`: The compliance range is 0-0.8V on the current outputs
[14:16] <nickjohnson> Hence the transimpedance amps and difference amp to convert it to a more reasonable voltage centered around something else
[14:16] <nickjohnson> eroomde: I thought you might say that. So, how should I generate my negative rail? :)
[14:16] <eroomde> one of those traco brickettes?
[14:16] <eroomde> too expensive maybe
[14:16] <nickjohnson> yeah
[14:16] <nickjohnson> I don't want to get into isolation, anyway
[14:18] <nats`> I'm right your DDS output between 30mV and 0.8V ?
[14:19] <nickjohnson> No, between 0v and 0.8v
[14:19] <nats`> oky and you want you op amp middle point at 0 ?
[14:19] <nickjohnson> http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1391590.pdf
[14:19] <nickjohnson> yup
[14:20] <nats`> and you want an output between -5 and +5 ?
[14:20] <nickjohnson> 5Vpp is fine
[14:21] <nickjohnson> So it doesn't have to be that big a swing
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[14:25] <nats`> try to use a little buck boost if you need more current
[14:25] <nats`> or a charge pump could be a good diea
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[14:25] <nats`> idea
[14:25] <nickjohnson> Well, so the original idea was to use a charge pump to generate -5v
[14:25] <nats`> mainly because you can calculate it for a frequency that will not be a problem
[14:26] <nats`> and don't forget to put the middle point of your op amp at 0.4V
[14:26] <nickjohnson> Why?
[14:27] <nats`> you told me that your DDS output range is from 0 to 0.8V
[14:27] <nickjohnson> Oh. Well, that's the beauty of the transimpedance amp
[14:27] <nats`> I guess if you output a sinus you want it between -5 a,nd +5
[14:27] <nickjohnson> It keeps the voltage on the pin at 0
[14:27] <nickjohnson> http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/ds/symlink/dsd1796.pdf <- search for figure 32
[14:27] <nats`> ahhh yep so you're designing a bigger stuff than I thought :D
[14:28] <nickjohnson> How so?
[14:28] <nats`> I mean you're doing it seriously :D
[14:28] <nickjohnson> Well, I'm trying to do it as simply as possible
[14:28] <nickjohnson> But transimpedance amps seem like the simplest way to convert and scale it
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[14:29] <Laurenceb> WSPR is really exciting
[14:29] <nats`> yep it's a better idea here
[14:30] <nats`> since you use a symmetric supply that's a better choice
[14:30] Action: Laurenceb is drooling over prospect of B-64 + WSPR
[14:30] <ulfr> huh?
[14:30] <ulfr> does B-64 do wspr?
[14:31] <Laurenceb> ulfr: VK3YT got from australia to belgium with a 10mW WSPR floater
[14:31] <Laurenceb> - radio range
[14:31] <adamgreig> lol that'd be quite the balloon flight
[14:31] <ulfr> Ah, I see.
[14:31] <ulfr> yeah, wspr is cool stuff.
[14:31] <ulfr> Always wanted to dive into that.
[14:31] <ulfr> But haven't got any further than just reading about it.
[14:31] <Laurenceb> its looking like the answer for long range comms
[14:32] <Laurenceb> it wasnt clear if it was doable at low power before
[14:32] <craag> It's got a very small data payload
[14:32] <ulfr> What do you mean?
[14:32] <ulfr> WSPR has always been extremely qrp.
[14:32] <Laurenceb> most poeple are using a watt or more for WSPR
[14:32] <nickjohnson> What's all this, people actually talking about HAB? That's not what I joined this channel for! Outrage!
[14:32] <ulfr> nickjohnson: Ok, we'll revert to cats.
[14:32] <ulfr> Or goats.
[14:33] <craag> Some people run 40w wspr..
[14:33] <ulfr> http://laughingsquid.com/star-goats-a-yelling-goats-version-of-the-imperial-march-theme-song-from-star-wars/
[14:33] <ulfr> craag: that's outrageous!
[14:33] <craag> I know
[14:33] <craag> not helpful
[14:33] <ulfr> that's like using 500W on 2m to hit a repeater 2km away.
[14:34] <ulfr> D:
[14:34] <ulfr> But then again, if you have an extremly ineffecient antenna, it can be justified.
[14:34] <ulfr> like a 50ohm dummy load :D
[14:34] <craag> true
[14:34] <craag> wonder what range you could get with 400W into a dummy load :P
[14:35] <ulfr> what frequency?
[14:35] <craag> 14M
[14:35] <ulfr> I can hit most of the repeaters around here with 5W into dummy load.
[14:35] <craag> put the dummy load on the windowsill :P
[14:35] <ulfr> probably quite long.
[14:35] <craag> mm
[14:35] <ulfr> unless it's some high tech dummy load.
[14:35] <ulfr> which is designed for no radio emission.
[14:35] <ulfr> most aren't, so that's all good.
[14:36] <craag> heh there are some 'ebay specials' out there
[14:36] <craag> rated to GHz
[14:36] <craag> with wirewound resistors and pl259 connectors :D
[14:37] <ulfr> heh
[14:37] <nickjohnson> eroomde: Actually, I just realised - without gain on the final difference amp, the max p-p this configuration can output is the positive rail voltage
[14:37] <nickjohnson> Since both inputs are positive.
[14:37] <nickjohnson> How do I combine gain and filtering?
[14:38] <mfa298> craag: do those ebay specials specify their impedance ?
[14:38] <craag> mfa298: 50.000 ohms of course
[14:38] <ulfr> that's quite alot.
[14:39] <craag> british not european lol
[14:39] <ulfr> doh
[14:40] <mfa298> need to specify them as variable impedance (based on 2 pi f L) and they'de be accurate (if not that useful)
[14:40] <craag> I don't even know how to write that when '.' is a thousand seperator
[14:40] <adamgreig> 50,000 ?
[14:41] <mfa298> I think you just tr ,. .,
[14:41] <ulfr> yup
[14:41] <ulfr> s/./,
[14:41] <craag> ok
[14:41] <craag> good thing to know
[14:42] <ulfr> Yes.
[14:42] <ulfr> I had this discussion few days ago.
[14:42] <Laurenceb> craag: there is an extended WSPR format
[14:42] <Laurenceb> or it can be abused...
[14:42] <Laurenceb> e.g. altitude as the tx power
[14:43] <craag> haha
[14:43] <Laurenceb> combination of extended format and abuse gives enough for battery voltage etc
[14:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> How many spots were there using WSPR ?
[14:43] <Laurenceb> tons
[14:43] <mfa298> that could make the wspr charts interesting. M6??? using 44KW
[14:43] <Laurenceb> check the database
[14:44] <ulfr> that is definately not qrp...
[14:44] <ulfr> :D
[14:45] <Laurenceb> http://pastie.org/9667775
[14:46] <ulfr> You know, an dispute over comma vs point nearly stalled the developement of ALGOL in 1958.
[14:46] <ulfr> Because european and american devs couldn't agree.
[14:46] <Laurenceb> looks like each packet averaged 4 receivers or so
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[14:48] <Laurenceb> and it transmitted every 10 minutes
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[14:48] <Laurenceb> im guessing there is a high probability of packet collision with WSPR :-/
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[14:55] <Laurenceb> this seems a slight flaw in the current protocol
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[16:23] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[16:31] <Lunar_Lander> today I read an interesting paper (german only unfortunately) about the life and work of Erich Regener, the professor from Stuttgart who first used automatic balloons for more than meteorological work
[16:31] <Lunar_Lander> it was interesting that he was also working on cellophane balloons about the same time this was tried in the US, but he also wasn't very successful, as cellophane isn't that good as PE
[16:32] <Lunar_Lander> and he briefly worked on the idea on carrying a pressurized air or hydrogen "gun" on such a balloon to fire a 100 g package to great altitudes
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[16:34] <LeoBodnar> aadamson: are you selling your trackers?
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[16:38] <aadamson> not really, I've helped a few guys out that have asked, but I really don't want to devote the rest of my life to building, testing, etc :)
[16:38] <aadamson> I told the GPSL guys that I may have some available from time to time
[16:39] <LeoBodnar> oh i see
[16:39] <aadamson> my panel is 3 boards so I usually build 3 at a time so occasionally I may have a spare or two
[16:40] <LeoBodnar> it's a small panel
[16:40] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: have you seen VK3YT managed WSPR?
[16:40] <aadamson> yeah 10cm x 10cm ... :)
[16:40] <LeoBodnar> i am yet to panelise trackers at all
[16:41] <aadamson> I had hackvana do me a panel of main, solar/lipo and single cell
[16:41] <LeoBodnar> yeah Laurenceb but he can afford long antennas
[16:41] <Laurenceb> http://pastie.org/9667775
[16:41] <aadamson> 3 mains, 9 solars, 14 single cells
[16:41] <Laurenceb> deployable antenna that deplys over water :P
[16:41] <aadamson> on a 10x10 with rails for the stencil8 holder
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[16:42] <LeoBodnar> with champaigne?
[16:43] <LeoBodnar> but yeah WSPR is interesting
[16:43] <Laurenceb> 17000km on 10mW isnt too bad
[16:43] <LeoBodnar> i got spotted from sweden by attaching a 10m dipole to an IC TTL output
[16:43] <Laurenceb> heh
[16:44] <LeoBodnar> not sure what that was in mW
[16:44] <Laurenceb> i suspect an electrically shortened dipole would work
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[16:44] <Laurenceb> but it comes down to how light you could make the inductors
[16:45] <LeoBodnar> assymetric dipole?
[16:45] <LeoBodnar> or just shortened?
[16:45] <Laurenceb> just shortened
[16:45] <Laurenceb> needs some pretty high Q inductors to work
[16:46] <Laurenceb> but i havent actually worked out how feasibly it is
[16:46] <Laurenceb> 10.14Mhz works out at 0.8grams of copper for a simple dipole
[16:47] <LeoBodnar> 1/4 wave?
[16:47] <Laurenceb> 1/2
[16:48] <LeoBodnar> it's a nightmare to launch in non-zero wind
[16:48] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:48] <Laurenceb> http://www.k7mem.com/Electronic_Notebook/antennas/shortant.html
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[16:51] <Laurenceb> i suspect a more sophisticated calculator is required to look at inductor Q
[16:51] <Laurenceb> and inductor wire AWK
[16:51] <Laurenceb> *AWG
[16:52] <myself> Inductor Q, the logically-figuring-things-out sidekick of Professor X
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[17:21] <bertrik> :)
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[18:24] <adamgreig> lol http://hackaday.com/2014/10/22/watch-that-windows-update-ftdi-drivers-are-killing-fake-chips/
[18:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03F11EXG_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=F11EXG_chase
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[19:33] <nats`> I have an old software to run on windows
[19:33] <nats`> is there any wine for windows ? :D
[19:34] <ulfr> dosbox?
[19:34] <ulfr> or just run virtualbox and win98
[19:34] <myself> wine for windows is a great idea. Remember when OS/2 was "A better Windows than Windows"?
[19:35] <ulfr> Did I just read myself typing? :O
[19:36] <ulfr> I never used OS/2 though.
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[19:38] <myself> OS/2 3.0 was the shit. It was like MS Windows and Amiga Workbench had scurried off into an upstairs bedroom at a party.
[19:39] <myself> And a while later, this amazing OS came onto the scene, with stability and power and a really sensible GUI, and it ran Windows software but had a really bitchin' command line too. Native REXX scripting.
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[19:40] <myself> And it was too good to be true, and nobody quite knew what to make of it, and it died, lonely and unappreciated, a few years later.
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[19:40] <LeoBodnar> it was good but IBM just scared everyone shitless
[19:41] <LeoBodnar> nobody figured out where's the catch
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[19:42] <LeoBodnar> also PS/2 etc
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[19:43] <nats`> ulfr it's a win98 application and this crappy win7 says that it can't run because of mode
[19:44] <nats`> I guess it's a 16bit application
[19:44] <ulfr> nats`: tried the "compatability" thing?
[19:44] <nats`> yep it doesn't even check that
[19:44] <nats`> it's directly an error box
[19:44] <ulfr> cool
[19:44] <nats`> like trying to exc a bad PE header
[19:44] <ulfr> windows at it's best"
[19:44] <ulfr> I think there's dosbox, or you could run wine through cygwin? :D
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[19:45] <nats`> inception !
[19:45] <nats`> :D
[19:45] <ulfr> or just virtualbox and use win95/98
[19:45] <nats`> yep I need to find a iso
[19:46] <ulfr> I might have one.
[19:47] <nats`> I found one
[19:47] <nats`> 120MO it's correct ?
[19:48] <ulfr> could be
[19:48] <ulfr> I don't remember, but that sounds a bit right
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[19:49] <nats`> all of that to make a wintage thermal camera software run :D
[19:49] <nats`> it'll deserve a reverse of the picture file format
[19:49] <ulfr> we have one computer dedicated for that at work.
[19:49] <ulfr> or that kind of software I mean
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[19:49] <ulfr> programming old radios and stuff
[19:50] <nats`> I'm not a ultra fanatic of open source but open format/protocol makes sense !
[19:50] <ulfr> yup
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[19:59] <nats`> it's not my evening virtual box doesn't want to install
[19:59] <nats`> for a dark reason
[19:59] <nats`> invalid G: drive
[19:59] <nats`> oO
[19:59] <nats`> I don't have a fucking g: drive
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[20:09] <nats`> creating a fake G: drive of 20MB fix the problem
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> strange
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[20:22] <nats`> apparently it's a common problem
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[20:23] <nats`> I wouldn't have trust anybody telling me that I would reinstall win98 after 2004 :D
[20:23] <SA6BSS> Upu: I have heard back from the school project and they interested in the pisky board, they will probably contact you with som questions in this channel
[20:24] <Upu> NPS
[20:24] <Upu> oops
[20:24] <Upu> thx
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[20:39] <fsphil> pisky sounds rude
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[21:23] <nats`> still trying to copy install file on the 98 VM oO
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[21:25] <fsphil> bring back memories?
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[21:26] <nats`> some sort yes
[21:26] <nats`> I have a proprietary picture file format to bring back from the death
[21:26] <fsphil> oooh good fun
[21:27] <nats`> yep
[21:27] <nats`> it's for my vintage thermal camera :)
[21:27] <nats`> I finally source a pccard to comapct flash adapter
[21:28] <myself> which format does the camera use? I have lots of native USB-CF readers
[21:28] <myself> And one old Lexar USB-PCMCIA ATA Flash reader :)
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[21:30] <nats`> the problem is the file format :)
[21:30] <nats`> .isi
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[21:32] <nats`> http://ndtnet.com/m/isi/products/shot.html
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[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
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[22:31] <Laurenceb__> http://caxapa.ru/thumbs/468328/misra-c-2004.pdf
[22:31] <Laurenceb__> useful - someone has stolen the misra spec
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[22:36] <qyx_> parts of it were public
[22:37] <qyx_> although its nice to have it :P
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[23:47] <Laurenceb__> http://patents.justia.com/patent/20140265690
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[23:50] <esculca> hi guys
[23:50] <esculca> who has been working with HopeRF98w modules?
[23:50] <esculca> in Lora mode
[23:53] <esculca> I am able to exchage packets with these modules
[23:53] <esculca> but I am getting a lot of errors
[23:53] <esculca> RSSI values is around 60
[00:00] --- Thu Oct 23 2014