highaltitude.log.20141014

[00:03] <ulfr> huh
[00:03] <ulfr> That was surprising.
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[05:24] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03EDUPIC4 after 039 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=EDUPIC4
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[05:43] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 0316808545_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=16808545_chase
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[06:59] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VORTEX3 after 0313 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=VORTEX3
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[08:32] <diegoesep> hello
[08:33] <diegoesep> mfa298, fsphil I 've got information for the balloonium , this is 97% helium :)
[08:33] <diegoesep> so this should be fine for hab :)
[08:36] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VORTEX4 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=VORTEX4
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[09:13] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
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[09:18] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VK3YT after 038 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=VK3YT
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[11:30] <Haxxa> Anyone able to give me hand with a pcb I am having trouble with?
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[11:33] <Miek> what trouble are you having?
[11:40] <Haxxa> Miek still here?
[11:41] <Miek> Haxxa: yup
[11:42] <Haxxa> cool are you experienced in electronics?
[11:42] <Miek> i think so
[11:43] <nats`> Haxxa just past your stuff here
[11:43] <nats`> many people can help
[11:43] <nats`> (basically just don't ask to ask... ask :D)
[11:44] <craag> yeah, I'll happily take a look, just can't really commit time in advance :)
[11:45] <Haxxa> Ok firstly I am student so keep this in mind I have been really attacked in the last channel I was in so I am sorry in advance
[11:45] <Haxxa> "it's not only ugly, but that's some terrible soldering too, Haxxa. Congratulations."
[11:45] <craag> We all started somewhere, and I was a student until about 3 months ago.
[11:46] <craag> lots of people here still are
[11:46] <Haxxa> Anyway I will start of by briefing what I am doing -
[11:47] <Haxxa> Not strictly high altitude - I am sending a sensor to antartica in which similar conditions apply
[11:47] <Haxxa> I am using L91 Engeriser to power my electronics
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[11:47] <craag> I remember us talking about this before :) go on
[11:47] <Haxxa> My sensor is built around parts that are rated to - 40 c
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[11:48] <Haxxa> The problem I am currently having is I have moved from breadboard to perfboard and the sensor no longer works somewhere in my soldering I have broken or shorted something
[11:49] <Haxxa> I have very limited debug options as the sensor is in low power sleep and has no leds
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[11:49] <Haxxa> here is the images of the sensor - please don't laugh - http://www.filedropper.com/2014-10-142
[11:50] <nats`> what is the sensor for ?
[11:50] <craag> DLing. Next time btw: imgur.com
[11:52] <nats`> Haxxa firstly I don't think this sensor is good enough for what you want
[11:52] <nats`> but go on the next point
[11:52] <Haxxa> imgur is my favourite but it will not upload for some reason
[11:52] <nats`> one of the solder seems to be not soldered in fact
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[11:52] <nats`> there are some red wire under the board
[11:53] <nats`> and some component pin goes to them
[11:53] <nats`> one of them is really like no solder at all
[11:53] <Haxxa> using abc - 123 reference what are you refering to?
[11:54] <Haxxa> nats ^
[11:54] <Haxxa> on perfboard
[11:54] <craag> I've never seen board like that before.
[11:54] <nats`> I don't know I closed the archive anyway did you test the continuity on your setup with a multimeter
[11:54] <nats`> that would be a good start to see if solder are out of equation
[11:54] <Haxxa> yes
[11:54] <nats`> if it's not a solder problem we will need a schematic
[11:55] <craag> I would gently suggest stripboard next time :)
[11:55] <nats`> because maybe you just reversed something on the sensor
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[11:55] <Haxxa> ok so you want a scematic?
[11:56] <nats`> it's alway better to debug :)
[11:56] <nats`> but more important you need to check that you respected the schematic
[11:56] <nats`> it's easy to rverse something when using veroboard
[11:56] <Haxxa> ok lets start of by stating the code works - this operates on a breadboard fine
[11:56] <nats`> you turn the board upside down to solder and sometime... wooosh you missed the pin
[11:57] <Haxxa> I am certain my soldering is screwed up.
[11:57] <nats`> if you have a continuity test and pass it it's not the solder
[11:57] <Haxxa> imgur
[11:57] <Haxxa> http://imgur.com/zIuCIKS,edvoAxe,MYnZbaQ,SJvLON1,OkfIoJT,3DbVyI2,Y7b0R4P,K8VPalM,MI6ga4x#1
[11:57] <nats`> unless you stay 3hour on the sensor and burnt it
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[11:58] <nats`> V11 and T12 are really suspicious
[11:58] <daveake> yes
[11:58] <nats`> R01-02 is the blue wire soldered ?
[11:58] <Haxxa> those wires are soldered and are just vcc and gnd
[11:59] <Haxxa> you can't see from angle
[11:59] <nats`> next time try to use black for gnd red for vcc
[11:59] <Haxxa> but they are in place
[11:59] <nats`> blue white and other for signal
[11:59] <nats`> oky
[11:59] <nats`> and what is the other board soldered
[11:59] <nats`> LC technologie
[11:59] <Haxxa> sd card reader
[11:59] <Haxxa> microcontroller is atmega328p
[12:00] <nats`> I guess you powered it ?
[12:00] <nats`> or not ?
[12:00] <Haxxa> yes
[12:00] <nats`> oky and what happened
[12:01] <Haxxa> nothing - nothing should happen though as it should log to sdcard every 10 minutes with heat and humitity values
[12:01] <Haxxa> nothing was logged
[12:01] <nats`> uhhhhmmmm
[12:01] <nats`> oky
[12:01] <nats`> take a multimeter
[12:01] <Haxxa> this is scematic
[12:01] <Haxxa> http://www.homautomation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Capture-d%E2%80%99%C3%A9cran-2014-06-11-%C3%A0-19.52.11.jpg
[12:01] <nats`> check the voltage between VCC and GND first
[12:01] <Haxxa> ignore rf part
[12:01] <nats`> there are Soooooooooo many reason to not log
[12:02] <Haxxa> code works fine though
[12:02] <Haxxa> okay 3.3v reading
[12:02] <nats`> that's a first cool point
[12:02] <nats`> I don't see the quartz
[12:02] <Haxxa> resonator
[12:03] <nats`> the yellow ceramic stuff ?
[12:03] <Haxxa> 16mhz - more tolerent in low temp ie. antarica
[12:03] <Haxxa> yes
[12:03] <nats`> hopefully you don't use tight timing stuff
[12:03] <Haxxa> nope
[12:03] <nats`> because ceramic resnnator in antartica will slow down like hell :D
[12:03] <craag> resonator is more tolerant?
[12:04] <nats`> uhhmmmmm you didn't put capacitor on the pin of the resonnator ?
[12:04] <Haxxa> yes this japanese one is rated to -40c at 16mhz
[12:04] <craag> iirc the internal rc oscillator is specced lower than some resonators
[12:04] <craag> nats`: no, they tend to have them inbuilt
[12:04] <daveake> On the schematic, where is GND connected to the RRF thingy?
[12:04] <nats`> it's usually not really needed but it can sometime stop it from working
[12:04] <craag> Hence the middle ground pin
[12:05] <Haxxa> The Rf module was replace with sdcard reader
[12:05] <nats`> pin4
[12:05] <daveake> OK. On the schematic, where is GND connected to the SD thingy?
[12:06] <Haxxa> rf module would not operate properally in low temps
[12:06] <Haxxa> daveake look closley there is a joint on pin 22
[12:06] <nats`> daveake first I would check that the atmega startup
[12:06] <Haxxa> green dot
[12:07] <daveake> bloody hell
[12:07] <daveake> Not making life easy for yourself with that
[12:07] <Haxxa> I didn't make it and yer it made my life harder
[12:08] <daveake> tbh, I'd start by a) shooting whoever did it, and b) doing it properly myself
[12:09] <Haxxa> Give you an idea here top left is dht22 - middle arduino and barebone caps / resonator - bottom sdcard reader
[12:10] <Haxxa> so any ideas
[12:11] <craag> Haxxa: Check continuity everywhere as nats` said
[12:11] <craag> Also check that nothings shorted that shouldn't be
[12:11] <craag> work through the pins one by one
[12:11] <Haxxa> nothing is shorted
[12:11] <craag> (welcome to the world of electronics debugging)
[12:12] <craag> Then check there is voltage where there should be
[12:12] <day> ^ where you never know if its a software issue or a hardware issue :>
[12:12] <nats`> Haxxa you know how to flash your uC ?
[12:12] <mattbrejza> unfortinely holding a multimeter up to a picture on the screen doesnt work quite as well as doing that on the actual circuit, so we are somewhat limited
[12:12] <craag> put a Blink Demo oon the AVR
[12:12] <nats`> start by doing a test with that
[12:12] <craag> check it pulses a pin
[12:12] <nats`> to see if this avr start up
[12:12] <Haxxa> <day>true but it works on breadboard and nothing was changed
[12:13] <Haxxa> I am going to start again - lets be honest I don't have enough to info to provide and it could be anything
[12:14] <nats`> Haxxa first step
[12:14] <nats`> find a way to make the uC starts
[12:14] <Haxxa> what is uc?
[12:14] <craag> flash it with a blink program
[12:14] <craag> the avr
[12:14] <nats`> usually if you have an oscilloscope check if the resonnator is resonnating
[12:14] <Haxxa> oh ok
[12:14] <nats`> if not flash a blinking program
[12:14] <nats`> like 1 second on and off
[12:14] <nats`> and use a multimeter on that pin
[12:15] <nats`> that's the first step if you uc doesn't start everything else is worthless
[12:15] <Haxxa> ok can we take a step back - mc starts and blink program was used to debug to begin with
[12:15] <craag> on this board?
[12:15] <nats`> on this board ?
[12:15] <nats`> lol craag you're faster :)
[12:15] <craag> too slow ;)
[12:15] <nats`> on the exact current setup ?
[12:16] <nats`> because you changed thing between the two boards
[12:16] <craag> bbl
[12:16] <nats`> otherwise it would work :)
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[12:16] <Haxxa> no but heres the thing there are no progamming pins - see picture and the mc is solder on and I have limited solderwick
[12:17] <nats`> just solder wire on the pin and plug them on a connector
[12:17] <nats`> you can solder on the top side if needed
[12:17] <Haxxa> So I will take a step back - tomorrow I will buy some stuff and try again because this board is not professional
[12:18] <Haxxa> thanks for all the debug stuff btw much appreachiated but I think I will not succeed at the very begiing I swapped 3.3v with gnd and mc may be dead
[12:18] <nats`> ahhhh
[12:18] <Haxxa> and I cannot test
[12:18] <nats`> that's possible
[12:18] <nats`> or the sensor
[12:18] <nats`> or many other things
[12:18] <nats`> you should say everything from the start
[12:19] <nats`> :)
[12:19] <fsphil> should'tve said that to begin with :)
[12:19] <Haxxa> the dht22 was sitting on my iron and got damaged maybe its shorting?
[12:19] <Haxxa> too many issues
[12:19] <nats`> yep redo everything neatly
[12:19] <nats`> and after we will see
[12:19] <Haxxa> starting from scratch in this case makes sence
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[12:19] <nats`> and put a conenctor for flashing !
[12:19] <nats`> because you'll need it
[12:20] <Haxxa> and stand offs for replacing mc
[12:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK2HAB-11 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=VK2HAB-11
[12:20] <Haxxa> time is of the essence
[12:21] <mattbrejza> soldering an IC holder doesnt take any longer...
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[12:21] <craag> Haxxa: FYI: I do have a PCB design that does pretty much what you want.
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[12:21] <Haxxa> I do to I printed a pcb and got it all fabbed and spent ages ensuring parts would work in cold temps and writing really good code
[12:22] <Haxxa> my board does not reflect my effort
[12:22] <craag> ok..
[12:22] <Darkside> PCB dsign is an art that takes practice
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[12:22] <nats`> Darkside well said
[12:23] <NickB1> true true
[12:23] <nats`> Haxxa to feel better take a look at high speed design
[12:23] <nats`> and remember that not many here could make one :)
[12:23] <fsphil> down that way lies madness
[12:23] <Haxxa> Darkside you know I am aussie looking to launch a weather ballon for project at some stage - we should talk later
[12:23] <nats`> I do'nt even know if someone here can do one :)
[12:23] <Darkside> oh rly?
[12:23] <fsphil> haha
[12:23] <Darkside> Haxxa: what stat?
[12:23] <Darkside> state*
[12:24] <Darkside> and how did you know i'm an aussie >_>
[12:24] <Darkside> oh wait, host has .adl in it
[12:24] <NickB1> They told him yesterday
[12:24] <Darkside> oh
[12:24] <Darkside> thanks guys
[12:24] <Darkside> now the internet knows
[12:24] <Haxxa> Channel 10 covered somethiong on a kids show - was that you
[12:25] <Darkside> yes
[12:25] <Darkside> on Scope, and on Totally Wild
[12:25] <Haxxa> maybe it was scope
[12:25] <Darkside> i'm not terry though
[12:25] <Haxxa> small world
[12:25] <Darkside> juxta_: is terry
[12:25] <Darkside> i'm in the background a few tims though
[12:25] <Darkside> times*
[12:25] <nats`> huu we talk with a TV superstart !
[12:25] <Darkside> my advice is start the comms with casa early
[12:26] <nats`> \o/
[12:26] <Haxxa> <nats`> Thank you for your help
[12:26] <Darkside> as they take aaaages to do stuff
[12:26] <nats`> Haxxa no problem next time come with all information
[12:26] <nats`> and remember black is gnd red is vcc :)
[12:26] <Haxxa> seriously and craag but yer I will be more prepared
[12:26] <Darkside> Haxxa: so where are you located?
[12:27] <craag> :) np
[12:28] <Haxxa> craag you recommended a different board this is my local hobby store - http://www.jaycar.com.au/ maybe a stripboard might be suitable from here
[12:28] <Darkside> yes
[12:28] <Darkside> stripboard is a good start for prototyping
[12:28] <nats`> I don't know why people love strip board
[12:28] <Darkside> my first payload was made on stripboard
[12:28] <fsphil> my first four payloads used stripboard
[12:28] <Darkside> but then i got annoyed and learnt how to design PCBs
[12:28] <nats`> I prefer with only metallig hole
[12:28] <fsphil> it's handy for simple quick jobs
[12:29] <Haxxa> <Darkside> https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Chadstone+Shopping+Centre/@-37.8873921,145.069995,3a,75y,91.52h,85.74t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1srMFd7zJqUbvhBCaIYKKz8g!2e0!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0xf0456760532d460
[12:29] <nats`> probleme with strip board is if you forget to cut a line
[12:29] <fsphil> where I might only need an ntx2, some resistors and an sma socket
[12:29] <Darkside> well i didnt man exactly lol
[12:29] <Darkside> Haxxa: i just means what city haha
[12:29] <fsphil> lol
[12:29] <Haxxa> More info is always helpful
[12:30] <fsphil> Melbourne looks like a nice spot
[12:30] <Haxxa> <nats`> what do you use then?
[12:30] <nats`> about same board as you when I designed first circuit
[12:30] <nats`> now I do PCB
[12:30] <nats`> it quickly help to maintain a good level of cleaness :)
[12:31] <Haxxa> I think tullamarine is a good place - nice open fields lots of good lauch sites
[12:31] <Haxxa> so you print yours?
[12:31] <Darkside> err
[12:31] <fsphil> open spaces is something australia is good at in general
[12:31] <Darkside> you may have trouble launching from the melb area
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[12:31] <Darkside> i think andy goes north for his larger launches
[12:32] <Darkside> you want to get *away* from tullamarine
[12:32] <nats`> I have a question Haxxa
[12:32] <Haxxa> I guess air traffic regulations apply :(
[12:32] <nats`> you want to launch this "pcb" to antartica
[12:32] <nats`> but how will you retrieve information ?
[12:32] <nats`> (be infromed that your sensor will stop working quickly)
[12:32] <Haxxa> no two seperate things - this is been flown to antartica
[12:32] <Haxxa> aand flown back
[12:33] <nats`> oO
[12:33] <nats`> with a balloon ?
[12:33] <Haxxa> weather balloon is seperate later project
[12:33] <Darkside> plane most likely
[12:33] <Darkside> :P
[12:33] <Haxxa> its a plane
[12:33] <nats`> ahh oky :)
[12:33] <Haxxa> airbus
[12:33] <Darkside> nats`: regular research flights to antarctica from australia
[12:33] <nats`> you have a deadline ?
[12:33] <Darkside> nats`: we have a few bases down there
[12:34] <nats`> because if not I would suggest to change the sensor by a chip sensor based on polymide technic
[12:34] <Haxxa> Its going to casey base at bom researcher area
[12:34] <nats`> oky Darkside didn't know that :)
[12:34] <Haxxa> I should have sent it already really next flight leaves soon
[12:35] <nats`> http://www.stmicroelectronics.com.cn/web/en/catalog/sense_power/FM89/SC1718/PF260067
[12:35] <Haxxa> <Darkside> how are you familiar with that? do you work in this field?
[12:35] <nats`> those kinf are more resistant to extreme weather
[12:35] <nats`> silabs and TI do some sensor too
[12:35] <Haxxa> its summer in antartica so only - 20c
[12:36] <Haxxa> caps rated at - 40c
[12:36] <Darkside> Haxxa: nah, not really
[12:36] <Haxxa> fair enough
[12:36] <Darkside> Haxxa: my original payload dsign was intended for antarcica too though
[12:36] <Darkside> Haxxa: with a UK research team
[12:37] <Darkside> never happened though
[12:37] <Haxxa> huh - why uk we own halve of the place
[12:37] <Darkside> connctions to the university of bath, who were doing experiments down there
[12:37] <Haxxa> cool
[12:38] <Haxxa> annoying it never happened
[12:38] <Darkside> this was years ago now
[12:38] <Haxxa> http://search.jaycar.com.au/search?w=board&view=list - what should I use?
[12:38] <Darkside> still, i ended up at the university of bath desighing a cubesat payload, so that was cool
[12:38] <Haxxa> nat`
[12:38] <Haxxa> ^
[12:39] <Darkside> http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=HP9542
[12:39] <Darkside> and just snip it to size
[12:39] <nats`> Haxxa it's really a matter of taste
[12:39] <nats`> take many of them and feel what is the more confortable
[12:39] <nats`> it's like for soldering technic
[12:39] <Haxxa> ok
[12:39] <nats`> it's always a personnal choice
[12:39] <nats`> or like coffee/meat/cigarette/alcohol :D
[12:39] <nats`> no discussion only troll :)
[12:39] <Haxxa> and was my baord really bad? and what made it bad?
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[12:40] <nats`> for a first one ?
[12:40] <Haxxa> so I can improve
[12:40] <nats`> no it's correct
[12:40] <nats`> you'll quickly see what's wrong if you continu
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[12:40] <nats`> in fact you'll learn how to make board when you'll start debugging board
[12:40] <nats`> you'll see what is a pain in the ass to debug
[12:40] <nats`> and so later you'll avoid those pitfall
[12:40] <Haxxa> But I seemed to use lots of 22 awg wire
[12:41] <nats`> yep
[12:41] <Haxxa> can I work around that
[12:41] <nats`> yep
[12:41] <Haxxa> how?
[12:41] <nats`> there are other really thin wire
[12:41] <nats`> but for the moent learn
[12:41] <nats`> moment
[12:41] <nats`> just make board
[12:41] <nats`> see how it work etc
[12:41] <Haxxa> well I am buying stuff tomorrow
[12:41] <nats`> learn how to make neat solder too
[12:41] <Haxxa> to make experience better
[12:42] <nats`> http://uk.farnell.com/pro-power/100-26g/wire-kynar-26awg-green-100m/dp/1202495
[12:42] <nats`> I use that when I occasionanly breadboard/veroboard
[12:42] <Haxxa> nats` my pre fabbed pcb was perfect but this was just to get up and running as fast as possible
[12:42] <nats`> or when I patch pcb
[12:42] <nats`> but it's a level higher than the first board
[12:42] <Haxxa> Thanks Darkside
[12:43] <nats`> with that http://uk.farnell.com/ck-tools/t3756-40/wire-stripper-0-40mm/dp/146421
[12:43] <nats`> those wire are better because thin and they are easy to solder on board
[12:44] <nats`> you just need to remove a little of plastic insulation and it goes directly in melting solder
[12:44] <Haxxa> any other recommendations for stuff I should buy
[12:44] <nats`> other advice is always "tin" your wire before soldering it
[12:44] <SpeedEvil> And more importantly, your soldering iron
[12:44] <nats`> and buy an IC stand off
[12:44] <Haxxa> always did :)
[12:44] <nats`> yep good solder iron is important
[12:44] <nats`> is your solder tip correct ?
[12:45] <nats`> clean and tined ?
[12:45] <Haxxa> wesd51 - weller
[12:45] <Haxxa> as always yep :)
[12:45] <nats`> don't care about the brand
[12:45] <nats`> the tip is really important
[12:45] <nats`> that's all :)
[12:45] <nats`> brand is good for sourcing accessory :)
[12:46] <Haxxa> yer tips are easy to get and cheap
[12:46] <Darkside> night all
[12:46] <Haxxa> night - btw where are you located?
[12:48] <Darkside> adelaide
[12:49] <Haxxa> lots more space :)
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[13:03] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03TRACKER - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=TRACKER
[13:07] <day> Haxxa: it usually makes sens to keep the complexity as low as possible (the internal resonator is bad, but its 'guaranteed' to work f.e.). Dont attach 5 components and start to program. Attach one and make it work etc.
[13:08] <day> a debug led is also nice if you have limited resources
[13:08] <nats`> yep or even two pin to make a serial port :)
[13:08] <day> ^ so much this
[13:11] <craag> the internal rc osc will work down to -40, you just need to calibrate it for accuracy.
[13:11] <nats`> no need for accuracy here :)
[13:11] <nats`> I guess the sd card will be used in spi mode
[13:11] <craag> exactly :)
[13:11] <nats`> and the sensor is not really timing constrained as much as I see
[13:11] <craag> even the dht22 timing is rather lax iirc
[13:12] <craag> beat me that time ;)
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[13:15] <craag> hmm I hope he's planning to use an rtc
[13:15] <craag> else after 4 months, his timestamps are going to be a bit off
[13:15] <craag> even with a decent resonator!
[13:28] <edmoore> oh hi Haxxa
[13:28] <edmoore> how did you get on in the end over that weekend?
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[13:45] <mfa298> Reading some of the scrollback I was going to say exactly the same as day, the bare minimum (atmega in a socket and icsp header) and test that works then add bits at a time and test
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[14:10] <day> craag: why not use the gps signal to keep the time on track?
[14:10] <craag> He's not using gps
[14:11] <day> ah i only read tracker
[14:14] <craag> Not a tracker, just a sensor data logger
[14:25] <day> im still thinking about a atmega88 tcp/ip weather station :p
[14:27] <myself> I weep preemptively for the evils of TCP that you will bodge together to fit in that code space
[14:28] <adamgreig> uIP might just about fit
[14:28] <adamgreig> of course it does involve a lot of weeping
[14:28] <edmoore> you probably don;t need tcp
[14:28] <day> myself: oh it has been done already. no need to write it yourself
[14:29] <day> most of the work is outsourced to a dedicated network chip
[14:29] <edmoore> i'd just use udp for that
[14:29] <fsphil> wouldn't even need an IP stack
[14:29] <fsphil> just have a pre-formed UDP packet in memory
[14:30] <day> i wouldnt dare to write an ip stack on my own
[14:30] <edmoore> collision detection probably
[14:30] <day> its the biggest pain to write something that has to be compliant to something :X
[14:30] <edmoore> yes that's very true
[14:30] <edmoore> writing it so it sort of works is one thing
[14:30] <edmoore> robust to edge cases is a very boring chore
[14:31] <day> especially if theres no 'half working' it either works or it doesnt. which is painfully to debug
[14:31] <edmoore> yes, although that's not the case with a tcp/ip stack
[14:31] <edmoore> there are several layers of functionality
[14:31] <fsphil> it always works until it's in the hands of the person least capiable of debugging problems
[14:32] <edmoore> you could go quite far with bitbanging and tcpdump on a laptop with a crossover cable
[14:32] <edmoore> udp broadcast only is actually fairly simple compared to tcp
[14:33] <day> i still puke when i see my python hd48..... 2x16char display linux driver :X
[14:33] <edmoore> anyway ot
[14:33] <day> best example of bitbanging
[14:33] <day> not ever again
[14:36] <day> en28j60 is the network chip i was talking about btw.
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[14:47] <edmoore> yes, it's quite common
[14:47] <edmoore> i believe jonsowman has used it before with uIP
[14:49] <adamgreig> he has nothing but good things to say about the whole experience
[14:49] <adamgreig> I once ported uIP to PIC C
[14:50] <adamgreig> it will be several years before i'm ready to think about tcp/ip again
[14:50] <gonzo_> I had to do some bug fixed on some oddball tcp stack in a pic 18
[14:51] <gonzo_> not enough ram to hold a complete ip frame, so it relied on byte stuffing it all into the NIC buffers.
[14:52] <gonzo_> really ideal when I had to burrow in to find the seq numbers and checksums to get the retry mech to work
[14:52] <adamgreig> so upsetting when your nic peripheral has more ram in buffers then your microcontroller
[14:52] <edmoore> yes
[14:54] <gonzo_> and having to reverse engineer the checksum routine to allow me to retrospctivly adjust the value to compensate for a changed packet byte, rathe than having the lucury of being able to just re-run the calc on the packet
[14:54] <adamgreig> god
[14:54] <adamgreig> sounds joyous
[14:54] <gonzo_> but we were happier then, though we were poor......,
[14:54] <myself> and we walked to the gateway router, in the snow
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[14:55] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03EDUPIC4 after 037 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=EDUPIC4
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[15:11] <fsphil> getting closer: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bz6amgXCYAEw1Q-.jpg:large
[15:13] <Dale_> Hi there
[15:13] <Dale_> I've been referred here for some help regarding a University Project
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[15:14] <fsphil> evening
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[15:16] <Dale_> Im looking at making a sensor package for a weather balloon launch
[15:17] <craag> Sounds like you're in the right place :)
[15:17] <craag> Where are you based?
[15:18] <Dale_> In Portsmouth
[15:18] <Dale_> Its going to be my final year project for my Electronics course
[15:19] <Dale_> Appreciate any help :)
[15:19] <fsphil> how much have you done already?
[15:19] <Dale_> I'm happy with most of the electronic side of it, microcontroller, sensors etc. Its really the RF stuff
[15:19] <craag> Ah cool, I'm a recent graduate of soton uni
[15:20] <craag> Still doing balloon stuff with the spaceflight society
[15:20] <Dale_> I've been looking at the radiometrix stuff
[15:20] <Dale_> ahh ok, didn't realise they had one
[15:20] <craag> NTX2B is the general route
[15:20] <craag> !wiki NTX2B
[15:20] <SpacenearUS> 03craag: No results for your query
[15:20] <adamgreig> or mtx2 these days
[15:20] <craag> !wiki NTX2
[15:20] <SpacenearUS> 03craag: Wiki page 03linkingarduinotontx2 (guides) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[15:20] <SpacenearUS> 03craag: Wiki page 03ntx2 (guides:radio_modules) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:radio_modules:ntx2
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[15:22] <Dale_> ah cheers
[15:22] <Dale_> i'll have a little read
[15:22] <Dale_> I imagine i'll need a license for these modules then?
[15:23] <craag> nope
[15:23] <craag> they transmit in the 434MHz ISM band
[15:23] <craag> which is license-exempt and permitted airborne with a maximum power of 10mw
[15:23] <Dale_> Ah ok great
[15:23] <craag> you will need a radio receiver
[15:24] <craag> a cheap rtlsdr is good for testing
[15:24] <Dale_> ok, I have read you can use a DB tuner for this?
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[15:25] <craag> one of the rtlsdrs yes
[15:25] <craag> they're good for testing
[15:25] <Dale_> okay nice, I am a little new to this, then when using this what differentiates your transmissions from anyone elses?
[15:25] <Dale_> is it simply the frequency?
[15:25] <craag> there's only usually a couple of balloons at most up
[15:26] <craag> and we co-ordinate freequencies
[15:26] <fsphil> frequency and callsign
[15:26] <craag> ah yeah, and that ;)
[15:26] <edmoore> !wiki *
[15:26] <SpacenearUS> 03edmoore: No results for your query
[15:26] <edmoore> good
[15:26] <adamgreig> !wiki e
[15:26] <SpacenearUS> 03adamgreig: Found 03379 results for you query - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/start?do=search&id=e
[15:26] <adamgreig> lol
[15:26] <craag> Have a read of the wiki
[15:26] <fsphil> http://ukhas.org.uk/communication:protocol
[15:27] <craag> as much of it as you can find
[15:27] <Dale_> ah ok great, so would these for suitable for like a data stream of sensor data?
[15:27] <fsphil> yea there is loads of info in there
[15:27] <fsphil> if you can find it :)
[15:28] <UpuWork> Hi Dale it was me who pointed you here thanks for listening to the advice its not always taken
[15:29] <fsphil> the normal ukhas protocol is fine for sensor data if you don't need really fast updates
[15:29] <adamgreig> Dale_: what sensors, out of interest?
[15:29] <UpuWork> you can also store all your data on an SD card and recover
[15:30] <fsphil> you'd just have a string such as $$callsign,time,latitutde,longitude,altitude,sensor1,sensor2... etc
[15:30] <adamgreig> for a final year project you might want to try doing something more advanced than just sending text sensor data twice a minute :P
[15:30] <adamgreig> (get that working first though!)
[15:31] <adamgreig> admittedly if the project is in electronics then I guess spend your time on the electronics rather than the radio business
[15:31] <Dale_> I was looking at a range of sensors, at the moment gas sensor, gyroscope, magnetometer, accelerator, UV sensor, colorimeter, humidity
[15:31] <Dale_> 've done quite a comprehensive board
[15:32] <Dale_> I would really like some data link to it
[15:32] <adamgreig> what kind of sample rate do you need?
[15:32] <adamgreig> or total data rate?
[15:32] <Laurenceb> has anyone done a beaglebone payload?
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[15:32] <adamgreig> maybe consider a pressure sensor as an obvious addition for a weather balloon
[15:32] <Dale_> derp< pressure is one i've got on there
[15:32] <Laurenceb> im feeling lazy, wondered what libraries are around to help out
[15:32] <adamgreig> and perhaps a geiger-muller tube which requires somewhat more interesting electronics (a high voltage supply for one thing)
[15:33] <adamgreig> what pressure sensor are you using?
[15:33] <Dale_> nah, I've previously used radiation sensors from tevisio
[15:33] <Dale_> the rd2014, silicone based
[15:33] <Dale_> bmp815? I think
[15:33] <Dale_> don't have my schematic to hand at the moment
[15:34] <adamgreig> be sure to check the lower pressure limits on these things
[15:34] <adamgreig> most will cease to function at quite low altitudes
[15:34] <adamgreig> not much you can do about it but there do exist easy enough pressure sensors that work down to near vacuum and plenty more that go a chunk lower than the ms5611
[15:34] <adamgreig> uh, bmp815
[15:34] <adamgreig> such as the ms5611 :P
[15:34] <Dale_> maybe the bmp805
[15:35] <adamgreig> rd2014 looks nice, maybe stick that on it then?
[15:35] <Dale_> off the top of my head
[15:35] <edmoore> http://www.meas-spec.com/product/pressure/MS5611-01BA03.aspx
[15:35] <Dale_> yeah I can do I have links to the UK distributor, i've done some commissioned work for him
[15:35] <adamgreig> you won't get full rate information down from all those sensors if you just stick them as text in your telemetry strings
[15:36] <adamgreig> so either you'll want to log it to an SD card, do something cleverer with the radio, or drop a lot of samples (all valid!)
[15:36] <Dale_> okay
[15:36] <adamgreig> what microcontroller are you using?
[15:36] <Laurenceb> the MS5611 is insane
[15:36] <adamgreig> ms5611 is really nice
[15:36] <Dale_> uhh, think I decided on the ATXMEGA 32E5
[15:36] <adamgreig> seems to be quite popular these days Laurenceb
[15:37] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:37] <edmoore> i'm using it on a board atm
[15:37] <Dale_> has the two uarts, which will be handy for interfacing to radio module and GPS
[15:37] <adamgreig> martlet 2 carried one
[15:37] <adamgreig> even at very high sample rates its noise was really nice
[15:37] <adamgreig> woah woah when did STM32F7 become a thing
[15:37] <adamgreig> http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/mmc/SC1169/SS1858
[15:37] <edmoore> you might not need a uart for radio comms, depending on your radio
[15:37] <Laurenceb> is there a python library for processing ublox?
[15:37] <adamgreig> cortex-m7 core?
[15:37] <edmoore> adamgreig, recently
[15:37] <Laurenceb> heh F7 is mental
[15:37] <edmoore> looks quite impressive
[15:38] <Laurenceb> they are going to do a 400mhz one soon
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[15:38] <adamgreig> jeeeez
[15:38] <adamgreig> the ram is all over the place though
[15:38] <edmoore> yes i noticed that
[15:38] <adamgreig> pin compatible with the F4, nice
[15:38] <edmoore> i just want 1MB of ram
[15:38] <edmoore> all in one memory space
[15:38] <edmoore> all directly addressable from the cpu
[15:38] <adamgreig> only available in LQFP100 smallest sadly
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[15:47] <SpeedEvil> What happened to b66: http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/Eagle_89c0b3_1377658.jpg
[15:48] <Dale_> So when it comes to the payload/flight documents
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[15:48] <Dale_> All I have to do is fill in the details and then it gets tracked/put online
[15:49] <Dale_> without me having to use any receiver hardware?
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[15:49] <cm13g09> Dale_: I strongly recommend your own tracking hardware
[15:50] <Dale_> ah ok
[15:50] <craag> Yeah for any data to make it to online, someone needs to be receiving it
[15:50] <craag> at the launch, and landing, that will need to be you
[15:51] <craag> plus you need to test it beforehand to know that it's gonna work!
[15:52] <Dale_> yeah :P
[15:52] <Dale_> ahh ok is the flight documents for others to track it then?
[15:52] <craag> payload doc tells the server how to parse your packets
[15:53] <craag> flight doc distributes autoconfigure settings to dlfldigi on the day
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[15:53] <craag> and locks the payload doc version so it can't be messed with in flight
[15:53] <Dale_> okay, so I parse the data to the server via a program?
[15:54] <craag> yeah, the dl-fldigi program mentioned and pictured on the wiki, decodes RTTY audio from your radio, into packets, and automatically uploads
[15:54] <craag> (assuming payload doc is set up)
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[15:57] <Dale_> okay great, im slowly ready through the wiki :)
[15:57] <Dale_> reading*
[15:58] <craag> :)
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[16:03] <Dale_> Is it alright then adding additional fields in the payload data, in order to get more data into the protocol
[16:03] <craag> yep
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[16:03] <craag> as many as you want
[16:04] <craag> but it makes the strings take longer to send
[16:04] <craag> and more chance of a single bit error corrupting the entire string
[16:04] <craag> saving values to sdcard and using the radio minimally or for something different is probably the way to go
[16:05] <fsphil> or split it into two strings
[16:06] <Dale_> ah okay, what is the average transmission time you guys normally do?
[16:06] <Dale_> 1 / second?
[16:07] <fsphil> hehe
[16:07] <fsphil> 50 baud is typical
[16:07] <fsphil> but 300 works fine too
[16:07] <craag> with 10mw there isn't much link budget for fast telem
[16:08] <fsphil> for occasional position updates the slow speeds are fine
[16:08] <fsphil> but if you're pushing lots of data then it's worth going a bit faster
[16:09] <craag> have you got any other way of tracking it currently?
[16:09] <fsphil> faster spreads out the 10mw pretty thin so you have to be careful the antenna is working well
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[16:10] <craag> If you've got a while for development, you could do a 50baud gps transmission, and a 300 baud sensor transmission on another frequency
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[16:11] <craag> lots of possibilities :)
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[16:12] <craag> gtg
[16:16] <Dale_> ok cya
[16:16] <Dale_> cheers for the help
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[16:27] <Laurenceb> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1243275397/air-umbrella
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[16:33] <mattbrejza> oh it does actually kinda work
[16:34] <mattbrejza> perhaps just for light drizzle
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[16:38] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> and don't forget to provide some lead-in charaters to allow sync before the data if you turn the Tx off between transmissions, its better not to turn off the Tx at all!
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[16:47] <myself> UUUUUU is a common sync sequence because it's 010101010101010101 :)
[16:47] <mattbrejza> UUUU is designed to help the AFC and bit sync, but its useless for character sync
[16:47] <myself> true enough!
[16:49] <mattbrejza> UUUUnn$$PAYLOAD, where n=NULL is generally best
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[17:29] <Lunar_Lander> evening
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[17:36] <Lunar_Lander> the new cold tests are postponed to tomorrow
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[17:36] <Lunar_Lander> was not really good to get the wires through the freezer door
[17:37] <Lunar_Lander> but I saw the NTX2B working decodable down to about -70°C
[17:37] <craag> nice
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[17:40] <Lunar_Lander> now I want to suspend the breadboard in a styrofoam box with dry ice on the floor
[17:40] <Lunar_Lander> or LN2
[17:40] <Lunar_Lander> but rather dry ice
[17:41] <craag> LN is cool stuff :)
[17:41] <craag> :D
[17:41] <Lunar_Lander> yea :)
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[18:06] <cm13g09> craag: ping
[18:07] <craag> pong pong
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[18:17] <jededu> EDUPIC4 24 Hours an an AA so far still at 1.37v :)
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[18:54] <Upu> power saving for the win jededu
[18:54] <arko> nice
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[19:04] <ScottM85> evening
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[19:05] <ScottM85> does anybody know of a cheap, decent camera to use in a hab?
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[19:05] <ulfr> any hd camera for cheap?
[19:05] <Upu> yeah find that canon that takes AA batteries
[19:06] <ScottM85> I was thinking of using the Pi?
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[19:06] <ulfr> If you have a pi, you can use the pi-camera
[19:06] <ScottM85> with cam module
[19:06] <ulfr> it gives okay pictures.
[19:06] <ScottM85> yeah, I have, they looked pretty decent from my testing
[19:06] <ulfr> Are you using the pi for something else?
[19:06] <ScottM85> just looking for the cheapest option in case I don't get it all back lol
[19:07] <jededu> Yes upu :) thanks to your pointers I diddnt realise how versatile the uBlox was
[19:07] <ulfr> A word of advice, have your tracking system throughly tested and redundant.
[19:07] <ulfr> (and don't land in water)
[19:07] <ulfr> because it's a bad idea"
[19:07] <daveake> If you already have tracking, then a cheap A-series Canon compact will cost about the same as Pi+camera, is less work and will take better pictures
[19:08] <ScottM85> well I've got a few B's that I'm using, I'd prob get an A for a camera though
[19:08] <ulfr> A few, in a hab setup?
[19:08] <ScottM85> no, at home
[19:08] <Upu> All the most sexy habbers have landed on water
[19:08] <ScottM85> media player etc
[19:08] <Upu> that right daveake ?
[19:09] <ulfr> ScottM85: ah..
[19:09] <daveake> s/landed on/landed an recovered from/ :)
[19:09] Action: cm13g09 ponders if it would be possible to land ON water, rather than landing IN water...
[19:09] <ulfr> I thought you were sending up a RPi cluster.
[19:09] <daveake> cm13g09 It is "on". You need a lot of weight to go under
[19:09] <ulfr> cm13g09: well, if it sinks to the bottom, you're doing something wrong.
[19:09] <cm13g09> fair enough
[19:10] <ulfr> hab setup is supposed to be sort of lightweight
[19:10] <daveake> average payload will be approx 10-20% underwater
[19:10] <ulfr> unless you're launching a full scale research lab...
[19:10] <cm13g09> fair enough
[19:10] <jededu> I will have an RTC when the boards arrive even more saving :)
[19:10] <ScottM85> what? I'm putting a brick in mine
[19:10] <ScottM85> for stability
[19:11] <jededu> Then I can put the PIC to sleep
[19:12] <ulfr> ScottM85: excellent idea!
[19:12] <ulfr> ScottM85: also easier if it lands in water, then you can just use the aprs to find it at the b ottom of the sea....
[19:15] <Ian_> cm13g09: Landing on, rather than in, water is slightly easier during a hard cold winter, when it's frozen of course.
[19:16] <ulfr> Ian_: depends on whether the parachute deployed or not *grin*
[19:19] <Geoff-G8DHE_> B-64 should be in range of the USA by late morning to early eveing tomorrow if Hysplit is to be believed, which it normally can be!
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[19:22] <Ian_> ulfr: would that be a conditionally dstributed system then?
[19:23] <ulfr> Well, might say that.
[19:29] <jededu> How do you predict the path of a floater?
[19:30] <ulfr> there are some datasets available, might be fun to try at least..
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[19:37] <jededu> Thx ulfr I wonder how accurate the predictor is if I set the descent rate at 0.1
[19:37] <jededu> .01
[19:38] <fsphil> 0.000000001 has been used in the past :
[19:38] <fsphil> :)
[19:38] <ulfr> heh, going to use a large parachute?
[19:39] <jededu> Interesting fsphil
[19:44] <jededu> Friday looks ok http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=5e1ab07001a1b123b401e28ae3c88735aa3e511e
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[19:50] <fsphil> apparently aurora visible over the uk atm
[19:50] <fsphil> if anyone has clear skies might be worth a look
[19:51] <fsphil> total cloud cover here
[19:51] <edmoore> lolno
[19:52] <ibanezmatt13> Iceland is the place, slightly nicer than Wigan
[19:53] <fsphil> satellite picture isn't looking hopeful
[19:53] <ulfr> ibanezmatt13: nah, we have SO2 atm.
[19:53] <fsphil> nasty big swirly thing out over the atlantic atm
[19:53] <ibanezmatt13> ah
[19:54] <myself> there's our resident meteorologist
[19:54] <myself> whippin' out the edumucated vocabulumary
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[19:55] <ulfr> huh?
[19:56] <CountyClare> Greets from a yank living in ireland.
[19:56] <ulfr> fsphil: yeah, just south of us there's some crazy clouds making interesting forms
[19:57] <fsphil> CountyClare: evening from up north
[19:57] <CountyClare> No stars visible here in Ennis tonight.
[19:59] <fsphil> might clear up later
[19:59] <fsphil> though not looking hopeful
[20:00] <CountyClare> I have some parts ordered and an interest in HAB. I was on hand to watch the first trans-american flight of Maxie Anderson in his rather outsized helium balloon in San Francisco years ago).
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[20:01] <fsphil> nice
[20:01] <CountyClare> I am trying to source rf parts for telemetry.
[20:01] <fsphil> http://hab.supplies/
[20:02] <CountyClare> Thx!
[20:02] <lz1dev> wait
[20:02] <fsphil> lol
[20:02] <lz1dev> that's an actual tld
[20:02] <fsphil> yep
[20:02] <lz1dev> lel :D
[20:03] <fsphil> CountyClare: the most common radio module used these days is the NTX2B
[20:03] <fsphil> it's pretty reliable and easy enough to use if you've got electronic experience
[20:03] <CountyClare> is that the piggyback board?
[20:04] <fsphil> the module itself is http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=71_63&product_id=92
[20:04] <CountyClare> I will look at the pin-out.
[20:05] <fsphil> !wiki ntx2 connecting
[20:05] <SpacenearUS> 03fsphil: No results for your query
[20:05] <fsphil> aww
[20:05] <fsphil> oh linking
[20:05] <edmoore> !wiki ntx12
[20:05] <SpacenearUS> 03edmoore: No results for your query
[20:05] <fsphil> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[20:05] <edmoore> !wiki ntx2
[20:05] <SpacenearUS> 03edmoore: Wiki page 03linkingarduinotontx2 (guides) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[20:05] <SpacenearUS> 03edmoore: Wiki page 03ntx2 (guides:radio_modules) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:radio_modules:ntx2
[20:05] <fsphil> loads of good info on the wiki
[20:06] <fsphil> if you know the magic incantations
[20:06] <lz1dev> docuwiki search functionality is hit and miss
[20:07] <SpeedEvil> http://i.imgur.com/qD3CcFw.gif Fork lift fun
[20:07] <CountyClare> Do it werk with a raspberry?
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[20:08] <CountyClare> or is it mainly adruino coupled?
[20:08] <craag> depends how you cook it :)
[20:08] <fsphil> hah
[20:09] <fsphil> it can be made to worth with pretty much anything
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[20:09] <fsphil> though there is a board developed just for the Pi in that shop
[20:09] <edmoore> it just need a voltage applied to a pin
[20:09] <CountyClare> IPerhaps it will work with a grilled cheese sandwich.
[20:10] <ulfr> or a toaster running netbsd.
[20:10] <CountyClare> So the data is sent over, like, FM?
[20:10] <fsphil> ulfr: I remember that
[20:10] <edmoore> CountyClare, we tend to send it as fsk
[20:10] <edmoore> although the ntx2b described itself as fm, really it has a vco on the input
[20:11] <CountyClare> If i recall that is "frequency shift key"? nO?
[20:11] <ulfr> yes
[20:11] <fsphil> yeppers
[20:11] <edmoore> so 0-3v on the input pin maps approximately to 0-20kHz (ontop of the carrier freq)
[20:11] <CountyClare> vco is voltage controlled oscillator? (Used to have a moog. ;-)
[20:11] <edmoore> so we apple, say at 50 baud, a changing voltage to that pin, say 1V for low and 1.2V for high, such that we get a shift of about 500hz in frequency
[20:12] <edmoore> soprry yes, vco = voltage controlled oscillator
[20:12] <edmoore> apple = apply
[20:12] <edmoore> sorry one handed typing
[20:12] <ulfr> lol
[20:12] <fsphil> it seems to have gone a little pear shaped
[20:13] <CountyClare> I'm trying to digest this. That's a lot of words for a slab with seven pins. lol.
[20:13] <edmoore> yes sorry
[20:14] <edmoore> giving you the collected experience of 7 years of community trial and improvement in 2 mins as if it were all obvious
[20:14] <CountyClare> No worries. Yer grand.
[20:14] <CountyClare> Like all noobs, I appreciate your patience.
[20:15] <edmoore> i'm also stirring a pan full of mushrooms
[20:15] <edmoore> anyway
[20:15] <edmoore> so
[20:15] <edmoore> imagine a serial port on an arduino or a pi
[20:15] <edmoore> you might blast out say 9600baud data
[20:15] <edmoore> toggling between perhaps 5V and 0V
[20:15] <edmoore> depending on whether you're sending 1 or 0
[20:16] <CountyClare> So you have this hi/lo fsk signal, presumably at some baud rate, and it is recieved on the ground by a dongle/laptop combo and the software does the rest?
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[20:16] <fsphil> bingo
[20:16] <edmoore> well, to feed the ntx2, we take that idea, and drop the frequency down to about 50 baud (it's about right for the tiny power limits and range requirement) and drop the voltage jumps to sabout 1V and 1.2V
[20:16] <edmoore> instead of 0V and 5V
[20:17] <CountyClare> I mean, I suppose you have to figure out what the data structure is going to be--is there a standard?
[20:17] <edmoore> oh yes
[20:17] <edmoore> certainly
[20:17] <edmoore> it's very broadly
[20:17] <edmoore> $$callsign, messageid,time,latitude,longitude,altitude,you,own,variables,checksum
[20:17] <edmoore> but you can define it yourself in what we call a flight document
[20:18] <daveake> s/flight/payload
[20:18] <edmoore> http://habitat.habhub.org/genpayload/
[20:18] <edmoore> yes sorry
[20:18] <edmoore> there are two documents
[20:18] <edmoore> payload doc and flight doc
[20:18] <edmoore> the former defines the protocol
[20:18] <CountyClare> It's pretty cool stuff for a bunch of "hobbyists", isn't it?
[20:18] <edmoore> later is details for when you want to fly so the online map can display you and so on
[20:18] <edmoore> yes
[20:18] <edmoore> it's all evolved slowly but surely from nothing
[20:19] <edmoore> it used to just be you send rtty
[20:19] <CountyClare> sending rtty would keep the payload warm, I bet.
[20:19] <edmoore> then someone had to leave home but wanted their radio to help, so they made a little script that read the log output of the modem software and got an irc bot to spit it out into this channel
[20:20] <edmoore> then another person is this channel threw togther a script to put that on a google map
[20:20] <edmoore> and it's evolved from that
[20:20] <edmoore> well it still is rtty that we send
[20:20] <fsphil> if you've not seen the map, it's at http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[20:21] <CountyClare> Oh, I was thinkin about teletype clatter. (I'm old).
[20:21] <ulfr> I liked the ircbot.
[20:21] <fsphil> or a newer version at http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/
[20:21] <ulfr> gui is not hipster enough.
[20:21] <CountyClare> lol
[20:22] <lz1dev> you just don't understand my art, man
[20:22] <edmoore> ulfr, it had a charm
[20:22] <edmoore> that was jcoxon who did that
[20:22] <CountyClare> The map looks like my bloodshot eyes on sunday morning
[20:22] <fsphil> lol
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[20:22] <fsphil> yea B-64 is making a bit of a mess
[20:22] <lz1dev> CountyClare: try this version http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/?nyan=1
[20:23] <edmoore> he also implemented dial frequency by pointing a webcam at the dial of his old radio and using the serial port flow control lines to generate pulses to tune up and down through the jack interface on the back
[20:23] <jcoxon> haha
[20:23] <ulfr> jesus
[20:23] <fsphil> remember that
[20:23] <edmoore> they were good times
[20:23] <jcoxon> actually i put a servo and a belt to turn the central dial
[20:23] <fsphil> lol
[20:23] <ulfr> this b64 thing has gone too far.
[20:23] <edmoore> still are good time
[20:23] <edmoore> oh yeah!
[20:23] <edmoore> sorry i forgot about the servo
[20:23] <jcoxon> it was awesome
[20:23] <jcoxon> and sort of did work
[20:23] <edmoore> there was something about pulses giving it a kick of about 1khz though?
[20:24] <edmoore> or am i misremembering everything
[20:24] <jcoxon> oh yes that was later
[20:24] <CountyClare> How is it managing to stay aloft for so long? I remember Anderson telling me that balloons were only good for a certain number of sunrise/sunset cycles, after which you ran out of ballast or helium, or both. Then you had to land--or die.
[20:24] <jcoxon> through the speaker socket on the front
[20:24] <jcoxon> hows tricks edmoore
[20:24] <ulfr> CountyClare: it broke the gravity.
[20:24] <fsphil> depends on the balloon CountyClare
[20:24] <daveake> dark energy
[20:24] <ulfr> the balloon has popped long time ago, it just defies gravity and refuses to land.
[20:25] <myself> it's carried along by sheer will power
[20:25] Action: ulfr hates when that happens, and stuff just randomly falls off the earth.
[20:25] <CountyClare> Maybe its passed into the afterlife.
[20:25] <fsphil> it's floating much like a brick doesn't
[20:25] <ulfr> haha
[20:25] <edmoore> a more physics based answer is that leo made his own balloons
[20:26] <edmoore> and i think he's made them sufficiently big that they can float just above the tropopause
[20:26] <fsphil> superpressure balloon - it's sealed so shouldn't lose gas
[20:26] <CountyClare> he's mastered dark energy.
[20:26] <edmoore> which is the point where the temp stops decreasing with altitude and starts increasing
[20:26] <myself> I thought sealed and superpressure were different concepts
[20:26] <myself> I mean, one requires the other
[20:26] <myself> but, superpressure results in a stable float altitude, because you stop growing more buoyant as you rise, right?
[20:27] <edmoore> up there it's more thermodynamically stable (if you start to descend quickly, you're warmer than your surroundings so your bouyancy increases so you go back up)
[20:27] <edmoore> also less weather
[20:27] <CountyClare> so of course, these are unmanned balloons. I suppose the Anderson team was thinking mainly manned jobs.
[20:27] <fsphil> he was probably flying ZP (zero pressure) balloons
[20:28] <CountyClare> So are there plans to "recover" b64?
[20:28] <fsphil> none
[20:28] <fsphil> just track until it fails
[20:28] <ulfr> I think people have given up on the hope rescuing it from the sky.
[20:28] <fsphil> recovery would be great though - it should go in a museum
[20:28] <CountyClare> Tell ya, his balloon took two semi-trucks worth of helium.
[20:29] <Geoff-G8DHE_> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/
[20:29] <ulfr> it would be a cool museum item
[20:29] <ulfr> The Royal HAB museum?
[20:29] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Have to have a museum with no skylights
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[20:30] <CountyClare> so foil is used because it is non-porous?
[20:31] <edmoore> i don't think the alumising contributes much to porosity
[20:31] <edmoore> but it's a knob to twiddle if you want to play with thermal stuff
[20:31] <myself> more to reducing temperature swings with sunlight, I think
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[20:33] <CountyClare> You guys have given me an awful lot to think about tonght.
[20:33] <edmoore> there's lots of good people here
[20:34] <ulfr> And some bad.
[20:34] <edmoore> it's a fun place to try stuff out
[20:34] Action: ulfr waves
[20:34] <CountyClare> Well, the nice thing is that I'm learning stuff already.
[20:34] Action: myself wave to ulfr
[20:34] <Laurenceb_> any FreeCAD users here?
[20:35] <edmoore> no, i had a play once though
[20:35] <CountyClare> did you read about the south korean propaganda balloons and the exchange of heavy machine gun fire?
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> its nice until it breaks horribly :-/
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> i cant rotate a pad
[20:35] <edmoore> CountyClare, yes, we were wondering who on here it was
[20:35] <Laurenceb_> suddenly the controls have all greyed out
[20:35] <ulfr> What?
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[20:36] <ulfr> Was the balloon equipped with machine guns or was it fired upon?
[20:36] <edmoore> this doesn't help you at all but we went with solidworks
[20:36] <edmoore> our one concession at ork to not using free software
[20:36] <CountyClare_> sorry, IRC dumped me.
[20:36] <edmoore> ulfr, it was fired upon
[20:36] <gonzo_nb> not sure we would get a notam for that in the uk
[20:37] <edmoore> leafletting or machine-gunning into the sky?
[20:37] <gonzo_nb> the latter
[20:37] <CountyClare_> I think tne N Koreans took umbrage at them, then the S Koreans took umbrage over the bullets landing in S Korea.
[20:37] <gonzo_nb> machine guns on balloons
[20:38] <CountyClare_> It is probably for that reason there's not much air traffic over the DMZ.
[20:38] <CountyClare_> Except propaganda balloons.
[20:38] <CountyClare_> with holes in them.
[20:39] <ulfr> Isn't that classified as a falling or crashed object then?
[20:39] <myself> I'm picturing balloons on machine guns. Like, make 'em all festive, some patriotic bunting and streamers..
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[20:39] <gonzo_nb> I was at a range in the south of france, up in the hills. The backstop was just a pile of tyres. I asked if the frencg authorities were woried about bellets going over the top and into the other side of the valley
[20:40] <myself> I'm pretty sure I know where this is going.
[20:40] <gonzo_nb> they looked puzzled and asked why that should be, that; side of the valley is spain
[20:40] <fsphil> lol
[20:40] <myself> Yup.
[20:40] <gonzo_nb> ta dum
[20:40] <ulfr> haha
[20:41] <CountyClare_> lol
[20:42] <gonzo_nb> I forget the name of the area, but it has change shands many times over the centuries as the border moved. A veryu odd mix of french and spanish
[20:43] <CountyClare_> myself, that's really a very Terry Gilliam idea about those balloons with machine guns.
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[20:44] <myself> I can't even imagine what franish would sound like, but I bet they have amazing food.
[20:45] <CountyClare_> "Mange ma burritos, caballeros!
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[20:46] <edmoore> gonzo_ andora?
[20:46] <CountyClare_> Flagelletas semaphoras!
[20:48] <CountyClare_> Just told my wife what I'm doing here, and she thought it sounds like a lot of fun to build and fly a balloon. But most things fun are illegal in Ireland unless they involve alcohol.
[20:48] <CountyClare_> We can deal with that, I suppose.
[20:48] <gonzo_nb> I thoiugh that most things that were fun were a sin?
[20:49] <CountyClare_> I've certainly had my fun!
[20:49] <CountyClare_> So I'll start researching telemetry methods and scour ennis for plastic laundry bags...
[20:50] <CountyClare_> I thank you for your assistance tonight and will be back--no doubt--when the next level of confusion is reached.
[20:51] <edmoore> if a balloon comes in range, having a go at tracking it will ve great practice
[20:51] <edmoore> and give you a feel for things
[20:51] <gonzo_nb> unless you can get north of the border and launch from there
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[20:51] <CountyClare_> What are we using thse days to track balloons most effectively?
[20:52] <CountyClare_> Laptop and a dongle?
[20:52] <gonzo_nb> the ground rx, or are you asking about the whole system?
[20:52] <CountyClare_> No just the ground rx.
[20:53] <CountyClare_> any special hdware for antenna?
[20:53] <Rebounder> metal?
[20:53] <gonzo_nb> the dongle, is a cheap way to start. I would recomend using with a habamp too
[20:53] <Rebounder> ;)
[20:53] <CountyClare_> Like maybe convert a UHF TV antenna? I'm not great at radio theory..
[20:54] <gonzo_nb> start with a simple quarter wave antenna
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[20:54] <gonzo_nb> converting a tv ant would not ve viable
[20:54] <CountyClare_> What wavelength are we talking here?
[20:55] <gonzo_nb> you can get cheap amareur 70cm band yagi cheap enough
[20:55] <gonzo_nb> they are ideal
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[20:55] <CountyClare_> There ya go. 70CM yagi on a stick. LOS reception, I guess.
[20:55] <gonzo_nb> anything designed for the 70cm or 432MHz amateur band will work on the 434MHz licence exempt band
[20:56] <CountyClare_> very good. I am jotting all this down.
[20:56] <CountyClare_> 75 ohm coax?
[20:56] <gonzo_nb> even a verical colinear antenna will get you line of sight to the horizon
[20:57] <gonzo_nb> most amateurs antennas are designed for 50ohm coax
[20:57] <CountyClare_> K. That'll get me started.
[20:57] <gonzo_nb> the actual impeadence 50/75 is not really that critical. But most 75r coax is designed for TV and is crap
[20:57] <Rebounder> jsut to throw one antenna on the barbeque: http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/1054
[20:59] <gonzo_nb> if it's for mounting on the house, for listening to everyone's flights, a 'white stick' colinear that will cover the 70cm amateur band (they will often be sold as dual band, which is fine)
[20:59] <gonzo_nb> a length of good quality coax, like RG213
[20:59] <gonzo_nb> an hab amp and dongle, would be a very good starting point
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[21:00] <gonzo_nb> for chasing your own balloon, look for a mag mount quater wave antenna for the car
[21:00] <CountyClare_> I'll do a good bit of ground testing before I risk a flight, I'd wager.
[21:01] <gonzo_nb> and keep an eye open for a used yagi, for the final direction finding on landing. But though lots of us have/carry them, they are seldome used
[21:01] <gonzo_nb> get your home system going and track other's flights
[21:01] <gonzo_nb> it's very good experience
[21:02] <gonzo_nb> esencial I'd say
[21:02] <gonzo_nb> essential
[21:02] <gonzo_nb> can't type, can't spell. Must be an engineer
[21:03] <CountyClare_> Very good. Will get an order out for a dongle tomorrow.
[21:03] <gonzo_nb> have a look at the HAB supplies and the HABAMP
[21:03] <CountyClare_> Good night and thanks again.
[21:03] <gonzo_nb> gn
[21:04] <CountyClare_> OK
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[21:11] <MatB> While you're on with antennas, I'm thinking of dropping my thoughts of climbing the side of the house and shoving something in the loft instead. I've got an QFH tuned for weather sats on 138MHz. Would that work at 434MHz, or am I better off just throwing a measured dipole in there?
[21:11] <edmoore> probably the latter
[21:11] <jcoxon> MatB, a colinear is an good choice to be honest
[21:11] <edmoore> but equally if it's not too far away and you have a filter, worth a whot
[21:12] Action: MatB goes to Google colinear...
[21:12] <edmoore> watson w50
[21:13] <edmoore> if that can fit in the loft, go for it
[21:14] <jcoxon> MatB, if you want a nice project you could make a slim jim antenna
[21:14] <jcoxon> or a j-pole antenna for quite cheap
[21:15] <MatB> The only antenna I ever bought was a CB one and I think it was just a piece of PVC with a single strand inside so I wasn't that impressed.
[21:15] <MatB> Was tempted by a discone to go in the loft the other day
[21:15] <MatB> Building something cheap sounds like more fun, and I'm cheap :)
[21:16] <jcoxon> http://www.hamuniverse.com/slimjim.html
[21:16] <jcoxon> though make sure you use good quality co-ax
[21:16] <craag> I tracked other people's flights for quite a while with a wire dipole soldered onto a bnc panel mount socket
[21:16] <craag> that and an rtl-sdr :)
[21:16] <MatB> "Slim Jim is a vertically polarized omnidirectional end-fed antenna having considerable "gain" and this is concentrated almost parallel to ground toward the horizon rather than skyward" - don't we want it pointing at the sky though?
[21:17] <jcoxon> well it won't be good for balloons overhead
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[21:17] <MatB> given my tracking so far has been a telescope whip off my handheld scanner anything would be an improvement
[21:17] <jcoxon> but will excell for ones above the horizon
[21:17] <MatB> I'm mainly thinking of in the loft to give me visibility in more directions without having to walk the kit across the house to the appropriate window!
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[21:20] <MatB> Presumably a filter is more important once I have a length of coax involved? How important though?
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[21:28] <gonzo_> I knew someone who was banned by the 'authorities' (his parents) from putting Ar antennas up. So he partially disconnected their in the loft TV antenna and told them it was because the tv transmitter site had reduced the power and they needed an outdoor antenna
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[21:29] <gonzo_> he put up a colinear on the roof, in a bit of black PVC pipe, and a dummy TV ant on the top. Then reconnected the TV ant in the loft. All were happy
[21:29] <daveake> lol
[21:31] <MatB> ;)
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[21:45] <Laurenceb_> http://hackaday.com/2014/10/14/new-brain-for-an-old-washing-machine/#comments
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> lol
[21:45] <Laurenceb_> IEC 60730-1 ANNEX H TABLE H.11.12.7 "dunno if arduino includes any of the required libs."
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> ItsThatIdiotAgain says:
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> October 14, 2014 at 8:14 am
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> IOT Washing machine. Hackers boiled my underpants&
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[21:49] <Laurenceb_> lol
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[21:52] <myself> Heh. Honestly I would love a reprogrammable washing machine. I want delays, notifications, scheduling, custom cycles, water temperature sensing, TDS meter integration..
[21:53] <craag> machine is in the outhouse here. Notifications would be incredible.
[21:54] <craag> I've considered putting a photodiode over the 'door locked' lamp
[21:55] <gonzo_> <washing> Have just pissed on the floor, again
[21:55] <craag> hehe not a problem in the outhouse :)
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> yeah ive modified a ton of washers over the years
[21:55] <Laurenceb_> change water level etc
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[22:03] <gonzo_nb> I have a udp relay box for controling the central heating.
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[22:04] <gonzo_nb> but have to make a watchdog for it, bufore I let it loose
[22:04] <myself> thermal fuse..
[22:08] <gonzo_nb> want it to drop back to the harware timer/ctrl if I don't get a ping on one of the relays every min
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[00:00] --- Wed Oct 15 2014