highaltitude.log.20141009

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[04:56] <Rebounder> morrn
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[06:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK2HAB-11 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=VK2HAB-11
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[06:48] <Lunar_Lander> morning
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[08:13] <Darkside> hmm
[08:13] <Darkside> anyone here know about the Vaisala RS41s?
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[09:09] <diegoesep> hello everyone
[09:11] <diegoesep> I plan to launch a Pawan 1200G ballon in a few weeks and for helium filling I have a question: can I use ballonium for gas filling : http://www.airproducts.co.uk/microsite/uk/balloon_gas/index.htm ?
[09:11] <diegoesep> Is it the same as helium?
[09:12] <diegoesep> does anybody as already used balloonium for a high altitude launch?
[09:14] <diegoesep> daveake, have you already used balloonium?
[09:14] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I understand its He with added air so that people don't knock themselves out when playing with breathing it in!
[09:15] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> It is used in ballloons but obviously has less lift the pure He.
[09:15] <day> isnt there any data on the composition?
[09:16] <diegoesep> I have found data on composition I will provide the link:
[09:19] <diegoesep> but it may be only for helium...
[09:19] <diegoesep> http://oliver.primary.co.uk/airproducts/microsites/balloonium/safety_data_sheet_helium.pdf
[09:20] <diegoesep> I'm not sure this is a link for the balloonium data sheet
[09:20] <diegoesep> it may be only for helium
[09:21] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03B-64 after 0315 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=B-64
[09:22] <day> why even use helium if you want high alitude? Wouldnt hydrogen be much better/ cheaper?
[09:22] <fsphil> gas is cheaper but the initial hardware cost is a bit higher (fancier regulator)
[09:22] <diegoesep> for safety I prefer to use helium
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[09:23] <LeoBodnar> vacuum is lighter than H2
[09:23] <day> that cant be true. i cant fly :(
[09:24] <day> although i wonder. would it be possible to create a hard shell that can contain its structure with a vacuum within?
[09:24] <diegoesep> nobody has tried balloonium for ukhas launches?
[09:24] <day> that is light enough to fly, obviously
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[09:26] <LeoBodnar> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_airship
[09:26] <diegoesep> the problem will be that as I plan to use a 1200g balloon with 8m burst diameter, if the gas is not helium but a mix of helium and something else I will have issue to reach the predicted burst altitude
[09:27] <diegoesep> either because it will burst at a lower altitude or either because the ascent rate will be lower than expected
[09:27] <fsphil> ask them. it's probably 10% air
[09:28] <fsphil> I think BOC's balloon gas is about that
[09:28] <diegoesep> ok fsphil
[09:28] <diegoesep> have you already used this kind of balloon gas for a launch?
[09:28] <fsphil> just used BOC's balloon gas
[09:28] <fsphil> I know it's not 100% helium
[09:29] <fsphil> they don't state what the ratio is, it probably varies
[09:29] <diegoesep> I see
[09:29] <diegoesep> with this gas have you got results for burst altitude close to the burst predictor?
[09:30] <fsphil> yea
[09:30] <diegoesep> ok good
[09:30] <fsphil> the quality of the balloon material will be the main factor in deciding your burst altitude
[09:31] <fsphil> unless there's a lot of air in that Balloonium
[09:31] <fsphil> (silly name!)
[09:31] <diegoesep> :)
[09:31] <fsphil> http://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au-boc-industrial-store/balloon-gas
[09:31] <LeoBodnar> BOC does not guarantee contents or purity of "balloon gas"
[09:31] <fsphil> oh 3% air
[09:31] <fsphil> that's lower than I thought
[09:31] <day> eh. i would even sell that as pure helium and demand a higher price :P
[09:32] <LeoBodnar> guarantee costs money even if the feature is there
[09:32] <LeoBodnar> compare ADSL with T1 speed and cost
[09:33] <diegoesep> Ok so with 3.0% Air and 97% helium you got good results for your hab launches and bursts?
[09:33] <diegoesep> fsphil, ?
[09:34] <day> 3% sounds like nothing :? the balloon quality spread will probably have a much larger impact
[09:35] <mfa298> diegoesep: reading the start of that page balloonium sounds like marketing speak for their range of cylnders + helium + ??? gas.
[09:37] <diegoesep> yes I have to find out the ??? gas ratio
[09:37] <fsphil> if this is very important for you I'd go for H2 instead or ask the supplier for purer helium
[09:37] <diegoesep> for me this is not very important to reach a specific altitude
[09:37] <diegoesep> but I would like to be in the range of the predicted burst
[09:37] <diegoesep> let's say between 30 and 34 km high
[09:38] <diegoesep> I know taht several others factor are more important than purity of helium
[09:38] <fsphil> the balloon will be the main factor
[09:39] <diegoesep> my main question is: does all the hab launches you guys have made are with pure helium or with party grade helium?
[09:39] <diegoesep> and have you noticed big differences when using party grade helium cylinders instead of pure helium?
[09:40] <fsphil> any differences would likely be lost in noise
[09:40] <fsphil> ask the suppler. if it's about 10% or less, don't worry about it
[09:41] <diegoesep> ok good
[09:43] <mfa298> I think there was some discussion along these lines on the mailing list a few months ago which might provide some useful maths
[09:45] <diegoesep> I will try to find the emails mfa298 thank you
[09:47] <Laurenceb> looks like B-64 has battery issues
[09:50] <Lunar_Lander> regarding gas
[09:50] <Lunar_Lander> our university supply gave us about 95:5 He:air
[09:50] <Lunar_Lander> that was good
[09:52] <day> how do the batteries even handle the low temperature?
[09:52] <gonzo_> if it's sold as balloon gas, it's probably a mix. From a professional; gas supplier, it will be whatever your order
[09:52] <day> i mean on long distance flights
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[09:53] <mfa298> LeoBodnar: T1's have we gone American now, AFAIK it's all E1 and multiples of over here for that sort of technology (E1 has a few more channels than T1)
[09:54] <mfa298> day the right choice of batteries for the payload - The favourite (Energizer Ultimate Lithium) are good down to around -40C.
[09:55] <diegoesep> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/ukhas/helium/ukhas/gRW40r6TQv0/CaowXu2deckJ
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[10:02] <day> how long are the balloons able to send their signal?
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[10:02] <day> if there is something like a 'standard balloon + standard payload' thing
[10:02] <mfa298> diegoesep: the posts linked at the bottom of that one also has some useful information
[10:03] <mfa298> day: that really depends on what you want to acheive. Generally people in here are hobbiests so want to do different things
[10:03] <fsphil> most flights are only an hour or two long
[10:04] <mfa298> The longest is probably B-64 which was launched in July (I think) and is still going, But that's a specialised lipo, solar and lots of careful thought about the payload (how much power to use, when to charge etc)
[10:04] <day> i meant those aprs endless flights
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[10:05] <mfa298> I think Upu has now got a payload that should do several days from a single primary cell (72 hours from a single AA I think)
[10:06] <mfa298> for other people it's a few hours from several AA's if they're sending back live images.
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[10:06] <day> oh im not speaking about live images. maybe an aprs burst every few hours/days
[10:07] <mfa298> in that case we're still waiting to find out how long - I think B-64 is the record holder by a long way
[10:07] <day> is there any data on b-64 on the net`?
[10:08] <mfa298> but you're pretty much asking how long is a piece of string. How long it keeps going is dependant on a lot of factors
[10:09] <mfa298> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-64/
[10:10] <day> mfa298: well ive no idea about the whole hobby atm. So right now i think. take standard balloon, take standard aprs beacon, take standard battery pack, send coordinates once each hour.
[10:10] <day> ty for the link
[10:10] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> All of Leo Bodnars flights are documented to some degree on his web site http://leobodnar.com/balloons/ also some KML files and other images on my site http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/
[10:11] <mfa298> day: if you havn't already it's probably worth having a browse through the wiki (link in /title)
[10:11] <day> right, will check it out
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[10:12] <mfa298> some balloons struggle to last >24 hours, others can go for longer but have limited listing capacity.
[10:12] <mfa298> day: where are you based ?
[10:12] <diegoesep> mfa298, I will more information about the percentage mix of helium/air from the supplier
[10:12] <diegoesep> mfa298, depending on the percentage I will go for it or not
[10:12] <diegoesep> if it is >= 95% is is safe
[10:13] <diegoesep> if > 90% it may be ok :)
[10:13] <craag> morning mfa298
[10:13] <mfa298> morning craag
[10:13] <craag> how are you?
[10:14] <day> mfa298: northern germany
[10:14] <mfa298> well I think the madness at work has dropped off a bit. Although Tuesday was spent playing with `Lasers'
[10:14] <craag> :D
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[10:14] <cm13g09> mfa298: Ping
[10:15] <mfa298> and not those poncy few mW things (work now has a laser cutter)
[10:15] <mfa298> cm13g09: pong
[10:15] <craag> heh nice
[10:15] <cm13g09> mfa298: you *know* what I'm trying to sort out.....
[10:16] <mfa298> day: ah ok, you may be ok for airborne aprs then (although you'll need to have an amateur radio license) - not everywhere allows airborne use of amateur radio
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[10:18] <day> mfa298: considering that its impossible to track those things especially if they send only a few beacons per day i dont really care about that. Ontop it will leave my country probably in a matter of days...
[10:23] <mfa298> day: remember that you'll probably be testing it on the ground first people will know where it was launched from. If you want it to fly for days any commercial tracker is probably not suitable. So I *strongly* recommend looking at all the relevant rules (amateur radio/ launch conditions/ etc) rather than breaking any laws (also don't forget this channel is publicly logged and indexed by google)
[10:26] <day> mfa298: its not a issue anyways i know enough people who have the license and could support me in that regard
[10:27] <day> sooner or later im going to need it anyways due to sailing :/
[10:28] <mfa298> for sailing Amateur radio license is not the same as Marine Radio license and one may not help get the other.
[10:29] <mfa298> although there's potentially nothing to stop you using Amateur radio at sea (depending on license conditions)
[10:29] <day> sigh... i make sure to hold a glass of saltwater under the transmitter than
[10:29] <day> then*
[10:30] <day> is there a technical difference between amateur and marine radio communication?
[10:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes
[10:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Amateur radio is about understanding how radios woek and communications
[10:31] <craag> different frequency bands and whole different regulations
[10:31] <mfa298> Amateur radio tends to be more about the technical side of the hobby (propogation, electronics, antennas etc). Marine is about communictions between sea going vessels.
[10:31] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Marine radio is about using a radio for communications at sea, need to know very little about how it works.
[10:32] <craag> marine vhf is pretty much just knowing the procedure for use
[10:32] <day> aka a marine licence allows me to use it on the sea, but suddenly everything changes on water and im not allowed to touch it anymore o0?
[10:32] <mfa298> I think the Marine license is about a days work and is things like how to use the radio, How to properly make a mayday / panpan call etc.
[10:32] <day> on land*
[10:32] <craag> day: different frequencies. and that.
[10:32] <day> ok
[10:33] <day> yeah the marine license is easy to get 1-2 days
[10:33] <mfa298> In the same way aircraft use different bands again and different licensing from amateur / marine. And Broadcast radio is different again ....
[10:33] <craag> it's like motorcycle license vs a truck license I guess. One is not the other, although they use the same road.
[10:34] <craag> truck license is a little more involved
[10:36] <WillDWork> this would look fun to fly: https://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/linkit-one.html
[10:37] <gurgalof> B-64s uptime has given me some cool ideas
[10:39] <gurgalof> too bad I dont have time for it yet, I have to build an awesome weddinggift for my brother
[10:39] <gonzo_> the main difference between the full AR licenbce and just about any other type, is that on the AR bands we are allowed to build our own equipment. Everywhere else you are restricted to using off the shelf, typed/certified approved kit.
[10:41] <gurgalof> gonzo_: and often use higher power
[10:41] <gonzo_> so the full Ar licence exam is a test that you understand the licence conbditions and have the basic knowledge to check that your station complies
[10:41] <gurgalof> like 1kW on most bands, atleast in Sweden
[10:41] <gonzo_> there are plenty of high power non AR systems about.
[10:42] <gurgalof> true
[10:42] <gonzo_> but all installed/certified etc.
[10:42] <gonzo_> It's the diy side of Ar that is the real difference
[10:43] <day> i see. makes sense. How long does that exam take? weekend?
[10:43] <gonzo_> day, are you in thbe UK?
[10:44] <day> no, germany. But considering that its technical i doubt those exams will differ extremely
[10:44] <gonzo_> they probably do differ a lot
[10:44] <day> hmm
[10:45] <mfa298> day: that's something you may need to look up in Germany. In the UK the basic AR license can be done in a weekend, but you need to get to the third level to use it in other countries (where there's a reciprocal agreement)
[10:45] <day> lets rephrase it, how long does it take in the UK?
[10:45] <gonzo_> you will have to havea look at your nations AR society web site. They should have all the info
[10:45] <gonzo_> the UK has three levels. And you have to go through all three
[10:46] <gurgalof> Sweden has one level, ant it's maybe too easy to get it
[10:46] <gonzo_> the foundation is a weekend course. But you can just take the test/assessment if you want (as many have done at the UKHAS meeting each year)
[10:46] <mfa298> you'll also need to look up what level of license you need to get to for airborne use (In the UK it's not allowed at all, In the USA I think it's allowed on the most basic level).
[10:47] <gonzo_> The intermediate level is about 6 days/evenings course, but again you can just take the test if you are confident.
[10:47] <gonzo_> The full licence is a 2hr (?) exam
[10:48] <gonzo_> check darc.de
[10:48] <day> and after that they let you tinker with 1kW transmitters? O.O
[10:48] <mfa298> In the UK it's 400W for the Full license level on some bands (some bands are lower power limits)
[10:49] <gonzo_> it differes between countries. The UK allowa 10w/50w/400w at the different levels of licence
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[10:49] <mfa298> In the USA I think they get 1.5KW on some bands - but they may also get that power level on some bands at the basic level as well.
[10:49] <mfa298> not that more power always helps much
[10:49] <day> welcome to the shady business of licenses..
[10:49] <gonzo_> it is possible to get special 1kW licence, for specific technical experiments.
[10:50] <gonzo_> I expect we will end up with a european licence system at some stage. But at the moment it is all done by each country
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[10:51] <day> nah i mean in general. Im amazed radios are even usable these days. Every monkey could get a license and legally tinker with high power transmitters :O
[10:52] <gonzo_> that's the idea of the exam.
[10:53] <craag> Heh hopefully a european system would be able to limit a callsign to be issued to one license/person :P
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[10:54] <gurgalof> oh, btw my callsign is SA6BMF if anyone wanted to know
[10:54] <day> the ultimate trolling bait..
[10:54] <craag> day: If you cause interference to another service, that's when ofcom and equivalent agencies get involved and jump on you
[10:54] <gonzo_> problems of duplication?
[10:55] <craag> 26 minutes it took them to locate and destroy some pirate fm broadcast kit that jammed an airport approach freq in london.
[10:55] <mfa298> If it's monkey's playing with 1KW transmitters they're just doing a Clarkson but that power is only heating things up and not going into the air
[10:55] <mfa298> MOAR POWER
[10:55] <SA6BSS> gurgalof: Tjena, sa6bss här :)
[10:57] <gurgalof> SA6BSS: skulle vart kul att släppa en svensk floater här, men det verkar billigare att åka till UK och släppa den där
[10:58] <gurgalof> english: It would be fun to release a swedish floater here, but it seems that is cheaper to go to UK and release it there
[10:58] <SA6BSS> japp, dyrt är bara förnamnet, men om dom gör det för dyrt svårt så släpper folk upp ballonger ändå utan anmälan ;)
[10:58] <gurgalof> ja det är synd
[11:01] <gurgalof> kanske nästa sommar om jag har tid och pengar
[11:02] <SA6BSS> waiting for my pcb:s then hopefully there will be a realese of a floter under a 36" qualatex
[11:03] <SA6BSS> back to work... afk
[11:05] <gurgalof> I have a half finished tracker
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[11:10] <Lunar_Lander> back
[11:10] <Lunar_Lander> btw day you said you are from germany?
[11:10] <gonzo_> what are the limits on pico flights over there?
[11:10] <Lunar_Lander> hello :)
[11:11] <gonzo_> 36" is ok without permisdsion?
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[11:34] <Lunar_Lander> day, from where in germany are you if I may ask?
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[12:29] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LORA2 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=LORA2
[12:38] <DG0MG> Lunar_Lander, you're from germany too?
[12:38] <ulfr> Arent we all...
[12:39] <ulfr> fun fact: I'm chemistry class, there's a german flag hanging on the wall, and I was working in the german embassy this morning.
[12:39] <Maxell> I'm not German!
[12:39] <DG0MG> That was BLUNA
[12:39] <ulfr> Coincidence? I think not...
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[14:02] <ra4nhy> Hello, I testing my payload. I recieve string by dl-fldigi, and the data sent to server, I see it on http://habitat.habhub.org/logtail/
[14:02] <ra4nhy> but
[14:03] <ra4nhy> it don't appeared on the map http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/
[14:04] <x-f> because "_fix_invalid": true,
[14:05] <ra4nhy> what it means?
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[14:06] <x-f> hmm.. or because "A time was not in the required format."
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[14:07] <x-f> in either case it's a problem with your flight document
[14:07] <x-f> err.. payload document
[14:09] <x-f> ra4nhy, your payload doc has a filter "common.invalid_always", you should remove that (by making a new doc)
[14:09] <ra4nhy> ok, i try it
[14:10] <x-f> not sure about the second error
[14:10] <ra4nhy> it is necessary ti use ":" in time field?
[14:11] <x-f> no, i think habitat recognizes it automatically
[14:11] <ra4nhy> ok
[14:12] <ra4nhy> thanks
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[14:29] <LeoBodnar> can you post your typical string here ra4nhy ?
[14:29] <LeoBodnar> you can use 15:29:08 or 152908 in the field "Time"
[14:30] <ra4nhy> $$RA4NHY,134357,0,5836.19751,04940.48651,344,+210,203.3,09,1.860*49A2
[14:30] <day> is the transmitter part a ready to use module?
[14:31] <day> aka. you just pump in your string and it handles the rest?
[14:32] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> day, what transmitter part?
[14:33] <mfa298> !wiki arduino linking ntx2
[14:33] <SpacenearUS> 03mfa298: No results for your query
[14:34] <day> Geoff-G8DHE-M: most GPS moduls only have a serial interface.
[14:34] <mfa298> day: you might want to read the link above
[14:34] <day> Geoff-G8DHE-M: is it the same with the transmitter/Radio module?
[14:34] <day> the link already explains it :P
[14:35] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> So you code your computer to read the GPS then build the string to be sent as text and then send the resulting bit string to the transmitter bit by bit normally.
[14:35] Action: mfa298 pats zeusbot (doing a better job than SpacenearUS)
[14:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> for RTTY at least, the transmitter module is just that a radio transmitter it needs to be told what to send bit by bit aong with start, parity and stop bits for RTTY.
[14:36] <day> wow its THAT simple o0
[14:36] <day> why do you even use arduinos for that. Its just configurationg a few registers for pwm :o
[14:37] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Most don't use Arduinos, but they can be used.
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[14:38] <mfa298> the pwm only allows the tx module to generate two tones (in that wiki example) you need to then generate and send suitable data which is what the microcontoller actually does
[14:39] <mfa298> so read in nmea/ubx data, parse it for useful stuff, read other sensors, parse into a suitable format and transmit
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[14:40] <LeoBodnar> ra4nhy: time should be type "Time" not "String"
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[14:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> LeoBodnar, Have you had any response yet from ARHAB records site yet ?
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[14:48] <day> does it happen that multiple beacon signals mix up?
[14:49] <day> from the receiver pov
[14:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> No because most people announce there frequency in advance on the mailing list so others avoid.
[14:49] <mfa298> there's also (or should be) a unique identifier on all flights
[14:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> also all the flights announced are here
[14:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> !flights
[14:49] <SpacenearUS> 03Geoff-G8DHE-M: Current flights: 03B-64 434.500 Contestia 64/1000 10(3afe), 03B-66 434.500 Contestia 64/1000 10(705b)
[14:52] <LeoBodnar> I think we are in stall mode. I have sent Keith everything i usually send but he said "youll have to send them to me in an eMail."
[14:52] <day> mfa298: ah no, i didnt mean mixing up coordinates, or whole packages. I meant, if two balloons send data in the same timeframe on the same frequency, it might either end up unusuable or corrupt
[14:53] <day> i guess a checksum would be one solution, but not THE solution
[14:54] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> LeoBodnar, right I guess he just wants to evidence before he commits it to the page for something so extreme!!!
[14:54] <LeoBodnar> day are you BoDK ?
[14:55] <DG0MG> day: The telemetry frames HAVE a checksum
[14:55] <LeoBodnar> they also have callsigns
[14:56] <DG0MG> sometimes :)
[14:56] <day> isnt the callsign the important part? for bragging :P
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[14:59] <DG0MG> No. If you use a callsign, you make ham-radio, if you use a NAME instead of a callsign u DONT make ham radio, but you can only use ISM-frequencies.
[15:02] <mfa298> technically you can call both a call sign, but using an amateur radio callsign on what's a shared frequency (ISM) within the ISM power limits get's into a grey area.
[15:02] <mfa298> but if my balloon sent rtty $$BALLOON,1,160220,51.0,-1.4,100*csum
[15:03] <fsphil> within ISM limits, you can transmit anything. if it has a valid amateur radio callsign in it, meh
[15:03] <mfa298> you could call BALLOON a callsign, but it's not an amateur radio callsign
[15:03] <gonzo_> if you buse an AR callsign outside of the AR sevice, it's just a sequence of letters and numbers. It has no legal meaning
[15:04] <fsphil> zactly
[15:04] <mfa298> I'm calling the AR within ISM a grey area as people will moan (whether it's legal or not - which probably comes down to intentions)
[15:04] <gonzo_> if you are within the ISM limits and you say thatit is ism, then that is what it is
[15:05] <mfa298> less of a grey area on 868, CB or PMR etc as that's not shared space (it's obviously not AR unless you have a special permit)
[15:05] <gonzo_> the moany old men will moan anyway. Leave them to it
[15:05] <day> a callsign holds a legal meaning?
[15:05] <LeoBodnar> is it illegal to spin a piece of paper with my callsign on it very very quickly?
[15:05] <day> i thought of it always as something like an irc nick
[15:06] <fsphil> I could use anyone's callsign on ISM 434 mhz. it would be rude, but perfectly legal :)
[15:06] <gonzo_> if the ISM is shared, then you can be ISM or AR. You are govened by each set of rules
[15:06] <mfa298> within licensed radio a callsign is the station idendifier (that's for Amateur Radio, marine, Air, broadcast etc)
[15:06] <LeoBodnar> day you should stop posting after sunset
[15:07] <gonzo_> But if you decide to use ISM, then there is no requiremebnts for callsigns, If you put one on, it's just data
[15:07] <mfa298> now if only the low power mode on the 817 was 10mW (I think it's more than that)
[15:07] <fsphil> 500mW
[15:07] <day> LeoBodnar: :X the sun is still up
[15:07] <fsphil> or you could speak very quietly :)
[15:08] <fsphil> ISM equipment needs to be certified though, that could be where you'd be breaking the rules
[15:08] <fsphil> I doubt an ft817 is
[15:08] <gonzo_> aside:there were some 464meg radios that would also do 10mw 434 ISM, maplin were doing them. That really uposet the moany old men
[15:09] <mfa298> I suppose I could get one of those ntx2 .650 modules and pass in some voice and cctss tone and try opening the local(ish) repeater
[15:09] <fsphil> hehe
[15:09] <gonzo_> especially when they got in to prepeter inputs
[15:09] <fsphil> voice on 434 ISM is fine
[15:09] <fsphil> just no music
[15:09] <x-f> ra4nhy, you still have the "always fix_invalid" filter
[15:09] <fsphil> mfa298: yes, and ironically it wouldn't be you breaking rules - it would be the repeater
[15:09] <gonzo_> the maplin radios I have a feeling woudl do ctcss too
[15:09] <fsphil> (repeating non-amateur signals)
[15:10] <gonzo_> there are also mil signals in there. You may hear air cadets on spot rreqs with MRx-nn calls
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[15:11] <mfa298> would be even more fun if I spoke random data that was MI6XYZ or MM6XYZ
[15:11] <gonzo_> the ATC that do our car parking for our hamfest use uhf, though I think they choose out of Ar band ones, just becuase....
[15:11] Nick change: j -> Guest9199
[15:11] <gonzo_> yep, and that would be quite legal
[15:12] <fsphil> yea
[15:12] <fsphil> rude definitly
[15:12] <fsphil> but legal
[15:12] <Guest9199> quite illegal, i would say
[15:13] <gonzo_> it's not an ideal situation, but it's down to whoever made the allocations.
[15:13] <fsphil> yea
[15:13] <fsphil> ofcom's fault :)
[15:13] <fsphil> or the RA back then
[15:13] <fsphil> but anyone setting up a new 70cm repeater would be silly to put the input in the ISM band
[15:13] <gonzo_> I suspect that the ISM came after AR, or the ISM was unused in the UK when the AR bandplan was setupo
[15:14] <gonzo_> many new allocatiosn are using wide split
[15:14] <gonzo_> which makes far more sense
[15:15] <gonzo_> the proximity of the simplex and rptrs, and the silly narrow split is just historical, as radios were restricted to a limited tuning range
[15:15] <gonzo_> that limitation went long ago. So let's spread out
[15:15] <gonzo_> it also makes repeater site filtering so much easier
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[15:17] <mfa298> looking at the repeater list there's an interesting mix of 430, 434 and 438 inputs
[15:18] <gonzo_> 430-432 is a probelmatic area, as there are geograpgical limitations
[15:18] <gonzo_> 438-440 was (a while ago) earmarked for being auctioned off
[15:18] <mfa298> looks like most of the 430 input ones are digital,
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[15:19] <gonzo_> suppose no problem is the repeaters are well away from the limited areas
[15:19] <mfa298> for analogue I think they're mostly 433/434 or 430/438 (op/ip)
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[15:20] <mfa298> although the list on ukrepeater isn't the most useful. no generic sort on columns just a few pre-defined ones
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[15:24] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03RA4NHY - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=RA4NHY
[15:24] <mfa298> looks like repeaters are dying out down here still. Seem to be even fewer on the map for hampshire
[15:24] <ra4nhy> :)
[15:25] <DG0MG> in Kirov on the Map
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[15:27] <gonzo_> I suspect that access to useable sites is the biggest pressure on repeaters
[15:27] <gonzo_> that's what killed off ours
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[15:28] <x-f> ra4nhy, congrats! :)
[15:29] <ra4nhy> thanks :)
[15:31] <Lunar_Lander> well done :)
[15:32] <mfa298> that was the same with the Southampton ones, although I saw reports that the Portsmouth ones might have been due to abuse.
[15:35] <diegoesep> anyone know an equivalent of the rfm22b for the 2meters band (144Mhz) ?
[15:35] Nick change: davo- -> davo
[15:36] <mfa298> diegoesep: if you're after aprs there's the HX1 (more like the NTX2 devices than rfm22)
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[15:41] <diegoesep> mfa298, I forgot to mention that it has to be frequency agile
[15:42] <diegoesep> I plan to switch between 144.650 which is legal for airborne in france and maybe 144.800 after landing
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[15:55] <qyx_> maybe si446x transceivers
[16:07] <diegoesep> ok thanks qyx_ and mfa298
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[17:40] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SKA1 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=SKA1
[17:41] Nick change: MichaelC1 -> MichaelC
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[18:43] <Lunar_Lander> beeep
[18:43] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[18:45] <fsphil> shh, you'll wake everyone up
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[18:45] <daveake> _______@_______________________
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[18:49] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VORTEX1 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=VORTEX1
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[18:51] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LORA2 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=LORA2
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[19:10] <Upu> A moment silence please for B-66
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[19:12] <junderwood> How long does one of Leo's flights have to disapear before it's declared dead?
[19:12] <junderwood> They seem to disapear for weeks on end and then pop up in some random country
[19:12] <Upu> quite a while as they keep popping back up
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[19:13] <Geoff-G8-> But B-64 continues on for its 90th day!
[19:13] <Upu> but this one has been gone 3 weeks
[19:13] <Upu> and it went awol in an area where it should have had good reception
[19:13] <junderwood> The B flight tracker page looks like a 3 year-old has been scribbling on it
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[19:24] <gurgalof> 3 year-olds are B flight prophets
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[19:31] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP5NVX - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=SP5NVX
[19:40] <Upu> did we decide what to do with RESET_N on the MAX8's ?
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[19:41] <jededu> I have power save mode working on the uBlox :) I am trying to set up CFG-PM2 update interval but its the only one I cant get to work
[19:42] <jededu> Has anybody configured this
[19:42] <Upu> don't bother
[19:42] <Upu> doesn't save much more
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[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> OK I think today I can say
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> +it
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> well that started well
[19:44] <jededu> Ok :) the board is down to about 30ma total
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> my professor approved my ideas for a second ascent. Currently working on getting that into the air probably this year still
[19:45] <mikestir> jededu: I had a play with the power management settings but I found that increasing the interval just made it go into full shutdown mode rather than cyclic tracking, which in turn makes it take ages to reacquire and ends up using more power over all
[19:46] <jededu> mikestir thx ill leave it as is
[19:46] <mikestir> I seem to recall the manual hints that the extreme power saving features are only really useful if your sampling interval is very long (like 15 minutes)
[19:47] <jededu> Makes sense I think i read that along the way
[19:48] <Upu> bye bye B-66
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[19:50] <jededu> Upu what do you get the pava down to (ma)
[19:50] <Upu> depends what it was going through
[19:50] <Upu> buck or boost
[19:50] <Upu> or native
[19:50] <Upu> I think "native" it was about 18mA ? maybe a little more
[19:51] <Upu> might be wrong I can't remember now
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[19:53] <Upu> you're at 3.3V though ?
[19:53] <jededu> Yes for now
[19:54] <LeoBodnar> Gordon Brown got rid of them [20:50] <Upu> buck or boost
[19:54] <jededu> but there is a 1.8v pic
[19:54] <jededu> :)
[19:54] <Upu> there isn't a 1.8V MTX2
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[19:55] <mikestir> upu what about those rfm24 (?) modules with the si446<something> on them? any sign of them coming out yet?
[19:55] <jededu> I know it will have to be on board next step
[19:56] <mikestir> well if you can find one of those new hoperf modules you could use one of those jededu
[19:56] <mikestir> I am yet to find anywhere selling them though
[19:57] <Upu> they rarely have TCXO's on
[19:58] <jededu> what about your LoRa modules
[19:58] <mikestir> true, but my tracker doesn't have a tcxo on it and it was usable
[19:58] <Upu> sure
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[19:58] <Upu> its about time people had to do some work tracking :)
[19:59] <mikestir> I don't think it would have worked with dominoex, which doesn't seem to be that tolerant of drift, but it was ok with olivia
[19:59] <jededu> Need to look into it
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[20:01] <mikestir> the only thing with those modules is that you'd need to change the crystal to do the mfsk modes, so it may just be easier to buy the components especially since farnell started selling the si4060
[20:02] <Upu> oh so they did
[20:02] <Upu> thats nice
[20:02] <mikestir> yeah - the week after I got a load from mouser :)
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[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> xD funny that no one reacted on my announcement
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[20:11] <Scott85> hi
[20:11] <Lunar_Lander> hi
[20:12] <Scott85> replaced my Arduino Uno with one of these, it works great and so small: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00H38Y3J6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
[20:12] <Scott85> How do they make them so cheap though? It seems to be a genuine ATmega328
[20:12] <ulfr> this might be quite useful for an upcoming project.
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[20:13] <mikestir> because atmega328s cost about a quid in any kind of volume
[20:15] <Scott85> ah right
[20:15] <mikestir> it's not really that cheap - it's just that normal arduinos are expensive
[20:16] <Upu> also watch out I've seen Arduino compatible stuff with Atmega328's on , not the p
[20:16] <Upu> and that
[20:16] <mikestir> compare with http://uk.farnell.com/stmicroelectronics/stm32f429i-disco/stm32f4-discovery-eval-board/dp/2355377 for £15
[20:16] <mikestir> that was 8MB SDRAM on it, touch screen lcd and a 168 MHz ARM cortex M4
[20:16] <mikestir> s/was/has/
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[20:18] <Scott85> wow, that looks pretty powerful
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[20:18] <mikestir> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMI9GdDQVHU
[20:18] <mikestir> indeed
[20:20] <Scott85> is it similar to the atmega in that it's realtime as opposed to using a Pi or something like that?
[20:20] <DL7AD> evening
[20:21] <Upu> hi Sven
[20:21] <Upu> get your bits ?
[20:21] <DL7AD> bit?
[20:21] <Upu> parts
[20:21] <DL7AD> ehm not so far. they will bring it to me tomorrow
[20:21] <mikestir> Scott85: the answer is yes, but realtime refers more to the choice of OS than the microcontroller. The Cortex-M chips would normally be used either bare metal (like arduino) or with a real time operating system. Pi is normally used with Linux, but there's no reason why you couldn't run an RTOS on it instead
[20:21] <Upu> ok cool
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[20:22] <Scott85> So the Arduino stuff is actually just a complete rip off?
[20:22] <Upu> wouldn't go that far the PCB's are of a reasonable quality
[20:22] <Lunar_Lander> hi DL7AD
[20:22] <Upu> but its just a way of making programming AVR's chips easy
[20:22] <mikestir> and the ecosystem gives you access to a lot of modules you can literally just buy and plug together
[20:22] <mikestir> that's worth money
[20:23] <DL7AD> hi Lunar_Lander
[20:23] <Scott85> I suppose so but this compatible board is exactly the same
[20:23] <englishman> stm32 >> avr in literally every single way
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[20:23] <englishman> unless you want to copypaste libraries.
[20:23] <Upu> also the component quality on arduino clones is dubious
[20:23] <lz1dev> meanwhile
[20:23] <lz1dev> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUuTvERSpWA
[20:23] <mikestir> they do, however, hide a lot of the important details of embedded systems development so I think most people would recommend moving on from arduino once you are comfortable with it
[20:24] <Upu> consider the Arduino Duplo Lego
[20:24] <Upu> and STM boards Lego Technics
[20:24] <Upu> lol lz1dev
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[20:25] <Scott85> hahaha
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[20:31] <lz1dev> Upu: the comments are lol
[20:31] <lz1dev> people think its fake
[20:34] <Scott85> I don't get why they would think that's fake
[20:34] <mattbrejza> because internet
[20:35] <lz1dev> Scott85: i wouldn't dwell on that
[20:44] <mclane_> Hi Lunar_Lander - what are you going to do??
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[20:56] <Lunar_Lander> hi mclane_
[20:56] <mclane_> Hi - I read your announcement - what are you going to do?
[21:00] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:00] <Lunar_Lander> sorry couldn't respond
[21:02] <Lunar_Lander> will be a flight which tests some new devices so to speak
[21:02] <Lunar_Lander> photocell cloud detector, new cutdown, the digital honeywell humidity sensor
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[21:24] <LeoBodnar> by the time you are comfortable it's too late to move "moving on from arduino once you are comfortable with it"
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[21:39] <Lunar_Lander> yea can imagine that Leo
[21:40] <myself> I got that way with BASIC.
[21:41] <myself> I'm dain-bramaged 30 years later.
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[21:43] <Lunar_Lander> ohhhh
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[21:53] <fsphil> one nice thing about C64 basic was it was rubbish
[21:54] <Geoff-G8DHE_> B-64 Polar image http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2014_Flights/B-64_20140712/polar6.jpg and KMZ todate http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2014_Flights/B-64_20140712/B64_201410092117.kmz
[21:54] <fsphil> graphics and sonud had to be done by accessing hardware registers directly
[21:54] <arko> lol
[21:54] <fsphil> ended up easier just to do it in assembly
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[21:57] <arko> my god
[21:57] <arko> 5 times around the world?
[21:58] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Yup its on the 6th now
[21:58] <arko> wow
[21:58] <Geoff-G8DHE_> only one meets the FAI requirment however the Black circle
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[21:59] <Geoff-G8DHE_> allthe others are to close to the "pole"
[22:00] <kf7fer> Scott85: FWIW it's always much cheaper to produce a design that you didn't have to do any R&D on nor any support - that's an advantage the clones have, which means cheaper costs. Just a thought.
[22:01] <Scott85> I suppose so
[22:02] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
[22:02] <kf7fer> Wasn't trying to beat them up just mention why some boards are much cheaper
[22:02] <fsphil> nite Lunar_Lander
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[22:26] <Ian_> Given that it was B-64 first lap that made the FAI acceptable lap, is there any thought that if it had launched a month earlier then it might have got two good laps in?
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[22:27] <Ian_> The period of the year being a potentially deciding factor?
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> Surely the launch time is what's important?
[22:27] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:27] <Geoff-G8DHE_> I don't think that Leo had the slightest idea it was going to cirumnavigate in the first place!
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> I suspect you could have gotten a sizeable bet against 3 weeks
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[22:29] <Ian_> I take it that's a YES SpeedEvil - understood Geoff-G8DHE, hind sight is a wonderful thing . . . Need a wayback machine for a visit to the bookies :)
[22:29] <gonzo_> time travel forwards is much easier
[22:29] <Ian_> I suspect that by B-66 Leo had an inkling about repeatability however.
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[22:30] Nick change: Mission-Critical -> MissionCritical
[22:31] <Geoff-G8DHE_> But I would agree with the idea, but any time the jet stream is North of the flight path then the balloon is going to stay further from the Pole, once crossed over to the Northern side of the jetstream then its most likely to stay that side I suspect.
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[22:57] <mikestir> <fsphil> one nice thing about C64 basic was it was rubbish <- well it was a microsoft product ;)
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[23:24] <tweetBot> @daveake: Must be well over 20 years since I did any curses programming. Anyway, dual LoRa gateway is getting a makeover #UKHAS http://t.co/Lb8rzmlzyf
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[23:32] <Paulo_BUE> Hi how is it going?
[23:32] <Paulo_BUE> I m Paulo from Buenos Aires, Argentina
[23:33] <Paulo_BUE> I ve just bought a raspy in the sky module
[23:36] <mattbrejza> its bed time in the uk im afraid
[23:36] <Paulo_BUE> jaja sorry...
[23:37] <Paulo_BUE> i was checking how good was this IRC.. such a long time i ven `t uses one
[23:37] <Paulo_BUE> i realise that it s really good.
[23:38] <daveake> It is, just not the best time :/
[23:38] <Paulo_BUE> sorry i won t bother anymore... i ll be dowloading the code from github
[23:38] <daveake> In fact, I'm asleep right now
[23:38] <Paulo_BUE> thanks for your time
[23:39] <daveake> Yeah just follow the instructions on the support page
[23:40] <Paulo_BUE> thanks :)
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[23:47] <Maxell> Paulo_BUE: and there is always someone not sleeping :)
[23:48] <Paulo_BUE> Maxell: jajaj maybe i ll be bothering you after downloading the SD or i ll see if i ve time i ll cofigure it manually
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[23:49] <Maxell> You can always try!
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[00:00] --- Fri Oct 10 2014