highaltitude.log.20141008

[00:00] <SpeedEvil> do realise that steel really, really sucks for antennas due to teh skin effect
[00:00] <kf7fer> skin effect?
[00:00] <kf7fer> cause you can poke your eye out?
[00:01] <kf7fer> but this is Nickel - does that make a difference?
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> oh
[00:01] <SpeedEvil> nickel isn't great either
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> The skin effect is the tendancy for electrical current to flow only on the surface of conductors at AC
[00:03] <Ian_> So copper plate them
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> indeed
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/cond-high-freq.htm
[00:03] <qyx_> also brass wires have relatively good mechanical properties
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> http://www.rfcafe.com/references/electrical/cond-high-freq.htm - 3um @470MHz and copper
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> .35um with iron/steel at the same frequency
[00:04] <Ian_> Silver plate the steel
[00:05] <kf7fer> I'm firing up the electroplate rig as we speak
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> And due to copper being 10* the resistance - iron has 100* the skin resistance as coper
[00:05] <qyx_> huh brass is even better than silver?
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> and yes - copper/silver plating works well
[00:05] <qyx_> but the resistivity is not good
[00:06] <myself> still, you're not putting much power into it, does it matter that much?
[00:07] <SpeedEvil> myself: once resistance gets to more than several ohms, it starts affecting its performance even for receive
[00:07] <Ian_> Looks for old 2 shilling piece with decent silver content. HAB silver!
[00:09] <myself> interesting, good to know
[00:11] Action: SpeedEvil wishes metals were easy to source.
[00:11] Action: SpeedEvil wants a few tens of kilos of lithium and assorted salts, as well as Pb/Sb
[00:11] <SpeedEvil> ^cheaply
[00:15] <LeoBodnar> aadamson have seen Upu using them having seen me using them [00:58] <kf7fer> I think aadamson said he used it to mount his solar panels
[00:18] <kf7fer> ok sorry, I knew I'd seen a number of comments on how useful these were and he was the only one I knew for sure that was doing it.
[00:18] <LeoBodnar> cut the middlemen
[00:18] <SpeedEvil> Nothing wrong with slivers of bamboo
[00:19] <LeoBodnar> he is just the most vocal of those using them
[00:19] <kf7fer> will take forever to cut the middleman with bamboo
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[00:21] <LeoBodnar> i beg to differ http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/thesideshow/BlindFury.jpg
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[00:22] <kf7fer> Heh. I stand corrected.
[00:27] <kf7fer> So stupid question - I typically derate any caps I use to 1/2 the published voltage value. Can I use a diode at it's rated voltage or would I be wise to derate it as well?
[00:30] <LeoBodnar> If you are absolutely certain the power supply well be what it says it is
[00:30] <LeoBodnar> will
[00:31] <LeoBodnar> but it would be really a shoestring design
[00:31] <kf7fer> So as a general rule you'd derate them at 1/2 ala caps?
[00:32] <LeoBodnar> maybe not 1/2 but say 20-30% definitely
[00:32] <kf7fer> (this specific case I was looking at using a 6.2v diode on the USB power line)
[00:32] <qyx_> that's not a general rule
[00:32] <LeoBodnar> unlike tantalums /elctrolytics diodes don't deteriorate with time
[00:33] <kf7fer> ok I typically source 20% higher anyways just for the "feel good" factor
[00:33] <qyx_> huh, i will definitelly choose higher rating
[00:33] <LeoBodnar> kf7fer: is it a zener / protection?
[00:34] <qyx_> 6.2V looks weird
[00:34] <kf7fer> basically yes
[00:34] <LeoBodnar> USB line can generate an inductive voltage kick if cable is disconnected on the host isde
[00:34] <qyx_> which partno?
[00:34] <kf7fer> http://www.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&itemSeq=158722179&uq=635482975502191699
[00:34] <LeoBodnar> i suggest using dedicated USB protection parts
[00:35] <qyx_> 404 - File or directory not found.
[00:35] <LeoBodnar> they cover both power and data lines
[00:35] <kf7fer> Sorry at digikey the part is MM3Z6V2BCT-ND
[00:35] <kf7fer> Do you have any recommendations off the top of your head?
[00:35] <qyx_> thats zener
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[00:36] <qyx_> not "general" diode which is used in forward direction
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[00:37] <qyx_> you may use this connected between gnd and vbus rail with PTC fuse to provide overvoltage protection
[00:37] <qyx_> in this case 6.2V is okay
[00:37] <LeoBodnar> http://www.ti.com.cn/cn/lit/ds/symlink/tpd2e001.pdf
[00:38] <kf7fer> Ok I was trying to replace a diode I've been using before that was only .15A. This diode will be wired between the UVCC (coming from USB), a PTC, and then out to VIN (where it feeds a TPS6120x)
[00:39] <qyx_> huh? do you have a schematic handy?
[00:39] <kf7fer> LeoBodnar: Cool thanks! That looks great
[00:39] <LeoBodnar> good night
[00:39] <qyx_> gn
[00:40] <qyx_> but yes, use a device like leo says
[00:40] <kf7fer> It's from here: http://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/datasheets/Dev/Arduino/Boards/Pro_Micro_v13.pdf
[00:40] <kf7fer> I will certainly look at adding that to the next design
[00:40] <qyx_> i don't really get the idea of that protection circuit
[00:41] <qyx_> the ptc serves no purpose here
[00:41] <qyx_> as the diode will blow before the ptc even trips
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[00:41] <qyx_> it could be meant as a overcurrent protection
[00:42] <kf7fer> Against a bad hub or something?
[00:42] <qyx_> but in that case the protected device have to be able to handle 500mA current + some margin
[00:42] <qyx_> no, against shorts in your board
[00:43] <kf7fer> oh ok
[00:43] <qyx_> mic5219 might be able to handle 500mA, but in the workst case scenario (short), you have to handle 2.5W of dissipated power (5V @ 0.5A)
[00:44] <qyx_> it would definitelly go to thermal runaway if you use sot23-6 package
[00:44] <qyx_> ie -> blow
[00:44] <kf7fer> :-(
[00:45] <qyx_> but maybe the regulator will survive, because the 150mA diode will blow first :P
[00:45] <kf7fer> oh well it's only for power from USB anyways - who cares if that doesn't work? ;-)
[00:46] <kf7fer> it's not like I'm going to use a REALLY long cable on my next flight
[00:46] <qyx_> this will not protect you from long cables, just from overcurrent
[00:47] <kf7fer> Sorry was joking about powering the tracker from USB for a HAB flight
[00:47] <qyx_> if you want overvoltage/surge protection, you have to use TVS/zener between power rail and gnd
[00:47] <qyx_> ah
[00:47] <kf7fer> I'm really liking the TPD2E001 though - that looks like a no-brainer for the next revision
[00:47] <qyx_> leo's device does surge protection of power and data lines
[00:47] <qyx_> but doesn't provide any overcurrent protection
[00:48] <qyx_> also it is good practice to decouple vbus with 10nF close to the connector
[00:48] <qyx_> the ferrite bead and PTC fuse
[00:48] <qyx_> and surge protector
[00:48] <qyx_> if you want to do it right :)
[00:49] <kf7fer> Well this is the first time I've done anything with USB but I'd rather do it right. I don't suppose you have a good reference for a proper implementation?
[00:49] <kf7fer> I've actually only got a 1uF on VBUS :-/
[00:50] <kf7fer> wonders if that's a typo and should be 0.1uF
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[00:51] <qyx_> http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/usb-device-circuit-design/?action=dlattach;attach=48537;image
[00:51] <qyx_> like this
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[00:52] <qyx_> ptc is mostly included on the host side, you don't have to use it on the device side, one is enough
[00:52] <kf7fer> was much simplier when I was ignorant ;-)
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[00:53] <qyx_> it will work without :)
[00:55] <kf7fer> so the PTC is FB1?
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[00:58] <qyx_> no, fb is ferrite bead
[01:01] <kf7fer> name makes sense ;-) so no PTC in that example then? Just to be clear
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[01:04] <qyx_> yep, there is none
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[01:08] <qyx_> they don't even use decoupling caps on vcc/avcc
[01:09] <kf7fer> I was actually surprised that their design was a bit less than optimum.... I added several decoupling caps to my 32u4
[01:10] <kf7fer> of course I added them later so that's why they are 0402 and the rest of the parts are 0805 ;-)
[01:12] <qyx_> ok, bedtime, gn
[01:13] <kf7fer> nite. thanks for your help
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[04:10] <BeaverOne> http://www.highaltitudescience.com/collections/kits/products/eagle-pro-near-space-kit
[04:10] <BeaverOne> is that a decent kit?
[04:11] <SpeedEvil> In short - no
[04:12] <BeaverOne> SpeedEvil: can you recommend a kit?
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[04:12] <BeaverOne> that was going to be my first choice
[04:12] <SpeedEvil> err - I'm 90% sure that spot locks up at 18km+
[04:13] <SpeedEvil> waht is your level of knowledge of elecgronics?
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[04:14] <SpeedEvil> http://ukhas.org.uk/ - as a first step -
[04:14] <SpeedEvil> http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/
[04:14] <BeaverOne> SpeedEvil: relatively low, i can solder, i understand individual components function, but can't design anything at all
[04:15] <SpeedEvil> What's your goal?
[04:15] <SpeedEvil> And where are you
[04:15] <BeaverOne> USA, Pennsylvania
[04:16] <BeaverOne> my goal to use a gopro to take video looking like this, https://www.flickr.com/photos/30721501@N05/2961986598/in/pool-highaltitude
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[04:19] <SpeedEvil> he's often on as rjharrison
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[04:31] <BeaverOne> SpeedEvil: can you recommend any kits?
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[04:36] <BeaverOne> SpeedEvil: how is B-64 going to be recovered? it'
[04:36] <BeaverOne> s over the ocean
[04:37] <BeaverOne> what in the world, it's been up for 86 days
[04:38] <arko> yep
[04:45] <BeaverOne> i have no clue now, since the Eagle Pro Near Space Kit isn't any good
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[04:56] <SpeedEvil> It's basically unlikely to the pointo fcanishing that it will be recovered
[04:56] <SpeedEvil> BeaverOne: it's more that it's vastly overpriced
[04:56] <SpeedEvil> And has issues with the SPOT device
[04:56] <BeaverOne> oh
[04:57] <BeaverOne> man, it seems like to recover a balloon it can be hundreds of miles from the launch site !!
[04:57] <BeaverOne> i just read a report of spending two days traveling to recover one
[04:58] <BeaverOne> https://sites.google.com/a/mtlsd.net/citizen-science/ib1/the-payload/spot-ii
[04:58] <BeaverOne> 106 miles away from the launch
[04:58] <BeaverOne> is this to be expected ?
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[04:59] <x-f> BeaverOne, are you familiar with the CUSF predictor?
[05:00] <x-f> http://predict.habhub.org
[05:01] <BeaverOne> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=e3c493f260c802f8cb2eff0676263e88df84fbc5
[05:02] <BeaverOne> redid it with proper altitude
[05:02] <BeaverOne> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=4b00deb3b4e1c64e53f58e223e82f12bab75710d
[05:03] <x-f> autumn-winter season usually has fast jetstream, in summer winds usually calm down a lot and might reverse so your payload can actually land just a few kilometers from the launch site
[05:03] <BeaverOne> that's crazy, 120 miles away?
[05:05] <BeaverOne> x-f: what's the furthest you've gone to recover ?
[05:06] <x-f> 45 km in straight line
[05:08] <BeaverOne> x-f: what do you recommend here?
[05:08] <BeaverOne> seems like a horrible time for me to launch
[05:08] <x-f> are you ready to launch?
[05:10] <x-f> general recommendation is to wait for acceptable weather, to maximise chance of recovery
[05:11] <x-f> you can ask the Habhub folks to set up a hourly predictor for your location, like - http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/sigulda/ - then you can more easy see how the weather changes
[05:21] <BeaverOne> x-f: i posted to their google group asking for it to be added
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[05:55] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03OK1ALX_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=OK1ALX_chase
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[07:12] <Lunar_Lander> morning
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[07:23] <number10> morning
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[07:40] <tjanos> Morning, It seems, AETH22-4 reachable from Portugal: http://www.ready.noaa.gov/hypubout/185794_trj001.gif
[07:41] <tjanos> and some hours later from France, on 144.390 MHz aprs
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[07:52] <fsphil> nice
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[08:11] <jededu> Has anybody done any power saving config on the uBlox chips ?
[08:22] <craag> jededu: yep
[08:22] <craag> 1s cyclic tends to be the most popular mode
[08:22] <UpuWork> yeah jededu
[08:22] <UpuWork> on the MAX modules
[08:22] <UpuWork> disable all GNSS solutions apart from GPS
[08:26] <craag> I need to get me some of these 8s to play with
[08:27] <craag> Have you done any tests of position noise gps-only vs concurrent UpuWork ?
[08:29] <UpuWork> nope
[08:29] <UpuWork> but you can't put the module in PSM if you are in multignss
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[08:29] <UpuWork> so meh
[08:29] <craag> ok, will have to grab one and do it myself then :)
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[08:50] <jededu> Ahh thats what I was looking at on/0ff or cyclic
[08:51] <jededu> How much power saving is there to be had
[08:52] <UpuWork> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/ukhas/NJakdk2yotY
[08:52] <jededu> Wow
[08:53] <UpuWork> basically disable all GNSS solutions other than GPS
[08:53] <UpuWork> then stick it in power saving mode leaving everything else as is
[08:53] <UpuWork> keep an eye on sats if they drop below 4 go back into max performance mode just in case
[08:55] <jededu> Using CFG-PM2 ?
[08:59] <UpuWork> CFG-GNSS to disable the stuff
[08:59] <UpuWork> CFG-RXM to switch to PSM
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[09:30] <day> are these bare gps modules also have speed/height restrictions?
[09:30] <day> do these*
[09:33] <fsphil> the ublox modules are fine up to 50km when configured correctly
[09:53] <day> fsphil: I've read somewhere that military/safety restrictions exist, to prevend people to use commercially available gps receivers for rocket guiding. Apparently they are supposed to shutdown above a certain height level/ speed. Or a combination of both. I was just wondering if thats true.
[09:53] <day> from using*
[09:53] <UpuWork> it is true
[09:53] <UpuWork> called the COCOM limits
[09:53] <UpuWork> and most GPS modules this is 18km
[09:53] <UpuWork> or 500knots
[09:53] <UpuWork> either or
[09:53] <day> so its more like a guideline than an enforced law?
[09:54] <UpuWork> however ublox in flight mode work up to 50km as long as you don't exceed 500 knots or 4G
[09:54] <UpuWork> not its enforced
[09:54] <UpuWork> however
[09:54] <UpuWork> some manufactures implement AND
[09:54] <UpuWork> i.e above 18km AND over 500 knots
[09:54] <UpuWork> some implement it as OR
[09:54] <UpuWork> i.e above 18km OR 500knots
[09:54] <UpuWork> there are very few GPS modules that work above 18km
[09:55] <day> i see. so its not clearly defined
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[09:55] <UpuWork> no
[09:55] <UpuWork> but ublox work
[09:55] <UpuWork> some older Lassens work
[09:55] <UpuWork> Adafruit is iffy , they use to stop at 27km
[09:55] <UpuWork> I understand they work above that now, its meant to be 40km but no one has proven it
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[09:57] <day> well is 27km a reachable hight?
[09:57] <day> height*
[09:57] <UpuWork> any balloon can do that with the exception of a 100g
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[09:57] <UpuWork> so I take issue with them being sold as suitable for HAB
[09:57] <UpuWork> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:gps_modules
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[10:09] <day> i would love to tinker around with a gps modul. but i fear its a pita. Where you work you have barely any signals which makes testing a pain
[10:10] <day> do they have something like a test mode? In which they simply send dummy locations?
[10:12] <UpuWork> get one with an active patch on it and sling it out of the window
[10:12] <UpuWork> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=96
[10:12] <UpuWork> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_65&product_id=54
[10:22] <day> UpuWork: as long as they send a consistent datastream its fine.
[10:23] <day> i once build a dcf77 controlled watch and it was a pain. The receiver only worked in some locations, i had to dc the programmer, what a pain it was :D
[10:30] <fsphil> did it use the wearers arm as the antenna?
[10:31] <day> fsphil: nah it was a receiver from an alarm clock
[10:31] <fsphil> don't they have really big ferrite red antennas?
[10:31] <fsphil> rod*
[10:31] <day> half an index finger long
[10:32] <fsphil> ah that's not so bad
[10:32] <fsphil> the one I have is about 15cm
[10:32] <day> :o
[10:32] <fsphil> not watch friendly :)
[10:32] <gonzo_> my main clock in the living room was from lidl, and I think that is dcf
[10:32] <day> well with watch i meant clock :p
[10:32] <fsphil> ah
[10:33] <gonzo_> had to be carefully pl;aced to get sig
[10:34] <gonzo_> not sure though, how they set the local time zone? Programmed in per country of sale? There are some prog/test pins on it
[10:34] <day> im living relatively close to the transmitter. getting a signal is simple. But a breadboard is quite susceptible for all kinds of unwanted things. And GPS signals are infinite mor worse than dcf
[10:35] <fsphil> buy a module with built-in antenna, job done :)
[10:35] <fsphil> any from hab supplies would do
[10:37] <fsphil> the fastest signal you'd have to worry about on breadboard is the 9600 baud uart data
[10:39] <day> fsphil: i was talking about the satellite -> antenna transmition. i dont know what a gps modul outputs if it gets inconclusive input
[10:40] <fsphil> usually 0,0 or fairly random coordinates
[10:41] <day> as long as the data string is fine its ok. i dont need correct data for testing, all im asking for is something conclusive
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[10:52] <day> someone wrote something about aeth22-4 earlier. what exactly is that? all i can find is: http://aprs.fi/static/a/AETH22-4
[10:53] <fsphil> one of a series of balloons launched from the US
[10:53] <craag> It's a floating balloon with an aprs tracker
[10:53] <craag> see http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=11&call=a%2FAETH22-4&timerange=259200&tail=259200
[10:53] <fsphil> a few have crossed the atlantic to europe
[10:53] <day> what do they send?
[10:54] <craag> APRS which is gps beacon data on 144.390 MHz (in USA)
[10:54] <craag> see http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=AETH22-4
[10:54] <craag> ^^ raw packets
[10:54] <day> cool
[10:54] <craag> gets picked up by amateur radio packet radio infrastructure
[10:55] <craag> and uploaded to the web for pretty maps/graph :)
[10:55] <day> :D
[11:09] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[11:09] <Lunar_Lander> the best of british engineering :)
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[11:11] <craag> Lunar_Lander: ?
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[11:11] <craag> morning btw :)
[11:11] <Lunar_Lander> hello :)
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[11:12] <Lunar_Lander> ah I thought you meant spacenear.us xD
[11:12] <craag> pah, use http://habmap.philcrump.co.uk/?nobees=1
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[11:17] <Lunar_Lander> yay :)
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[11:19] <day> hm this raises the question, what exactly do these aprs tracker ballons do? Just wind direction tracking?
[11:21] <craag> we do it for fun / technical challenge :)
[11:21] <day> the tracking or the starting?
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[11:21] <day> i thought these are some kind of weather baloons
[11:22] <craag> They are, usually with homebuilt trackers (although these are using commercial ones), and very carefully filled (and sometimes homemade) balloons
[11:22] <craag> aprs uses the amateur radio infrastructure so tracking after launch is effortless
[11:22] <craag> we also play with other data types though which require active listeners with radios receiving
[11:23] <craag> allowing transmission of live images for example
[11:23] <day> But if they are weather baloons who starts them(except hobbiests, who dó it for fun)? And for what purpose?
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[11:24] <craag> weather balloons with commercial trackers are used by Weather Agencies to look at high altitude wind patterns
[11:24] <lz1dev> craag: habmap crashes my friefox withbees
[11:24] <lz1dev> :(
[11:24] <craag> although they tend to do up-burst-down flights
[11:25] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Normally reffered to as Weather Sondes
[11:25] <craag> lz1dev: Yep, upstream bug filed... :/
[11:25] <Lunar_Lander> yea just noticing that there seem much more float flights today
[11:25] <day> craag: it just seems crazy to me to start balloons to track wind directions.
[11:25] <craag> day: How would you do it?
[11:26] <cm13g09> morning craag
[11:26] <Lunar_Lander> that is why the Wx bureaus measure P, T and U on the flights
[11:26] <Lunar_Lander> pressure, temperature, humidity
[11:27] <craag> mornin cm13g09
[11:27] <cm13g09> well, a'noon in fact
[11:27] <craag> ssshhhh
[11:29] <Geoff-G8DHE_> the sondes produce this sort of data http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2014_Flights/Sondes/
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[11:30] <craag> Allows them to build a 3D map of the atmosphere to feed into the weather prediction computation
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[11:36] <day> craag: i would use a giant smog generator :P. Jokes aside. The wind tracking via balloons seems reasonable, but why not monitor more than just the wind directions? Temp, airpressure etc.
[11:36] <lz1dev> Geoff-G8DHE_: that's a skew-t :D
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[11:38] <craag> day: The weather agency ones do, see Geoff-G8DHE_'s link for an example output.
[11:40] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Most countries european fly sondes every 12 hours or so from a variety of sites see http://62.202.7.134/hpbo/sounding_europe.aspx#
[11:43] <Geoff-G8DHE_> and http://meteocentre.com/upperair/get_sounding.php?stn=03882&type=rs&yyyy=2014&mm=10&dd=08&run=00&hist=0&show=0&lang=en&region=uk
[11:50] <fsphil> we mostly take pretty pictures
[11:50] <fsphil> or try for higher altitudes / longer float times
[11:51] <craag> Yeah people often fly a temperature sensor as well as it's so easy to do
[11:51] <craag> but the result is always: it's very cold!
[11:51] <craag> not much else to do with that data..
[11:51] <mattbrejza> with about 20C error
[11:51] <fsphil> balloons are sometimes used to test things that might be flown in space
[11:52] <fsphil> though as it turns out, space is a nicer environment than 30km up in the air
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[12:00] <Lunar_Lander> btw day there was one experiment for high-altitude winds done in the carribean, as part of Project HARP, where gun projectiles were launched to very high altitudes
[12:00] <Lunar_Lander> and they dropped big parachutes or radar chaff or smoke and that was tracked to find out more about the atmosphere above where balloons can go
[12:02] <Darkside> https://i.imgur.com/WZynWKr.jpg
[12:02] <Darkside> thre we go
[12:02] <fsphil> aww
[12:02] <fsphil> it's below my horizon :(
[12:02] <Darkside> just a bit
[12:02] <Darkside> also its over
[12:02] <Darkside> :P
[12:02] <fsphil> ah well, there's one visible here next year
[12:04] <fsphil> was it a good one? I've seen lunar eclipses where it nearlly disappears
[12:04] <fsphil> others are not so dark
[12:05] <Lunar_Lander> nice
[12:06] Action: SpacenearUS is going for a nap.
[12:06] Action: SpacenearUS is back!
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[12:25] Action: SpacenearUS is going for a nap.
[12:25] Action: SpacenearUS is back!
[12:31] <Piet0r_> System update? :p
[12:31] Nick change: Piet0r_ -> Piet0r
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> No.
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> Unplugged to hoover.
[12:36] <Piet0r> Hoover?
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> A brand of vacuum cleaner.
[12:36] Action: SpeedEvil was not very serious.
[12:37] <Piet0r> I see
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[13:14] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03VK3YT - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=VK3YT
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[14:26] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LORA1 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=LORA1
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[14:55] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03UBSEDS2 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=UBSEDS2
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[15:05] <mattbrejza> with any luck B64 will hit that aprs station in the middle of russia today
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[17:00] <jededu> I am playing with the uBlox power settings does anybody have an example of the code to put into power save mode (hex)
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[17:01] <lz1dev> !wiki ublox
[17:01] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Wiki page 03ublox6 (guides) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox6
[17:01] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: Wiki page 03ublox_psm (guides) - 12http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox_psm
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[17:06] <jededu> Found it thx <lz1dev>
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[17:23] Nick change: MichaelC1 -> MichaelC
[17:34] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03B-64 after 032 days silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=B-64
[17:35] <qyx_> \o/
[17:35] <ulfr> Is that thing still floating!?!
[17:35] <SpeedEvil> Woo!
[17:35] <SpeedEvil> Barking mad
[17:36] <qyx_> 2.61V.. slowly dying
[17:36] <SpeedEvil> 3 earth circumferences!
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[17:37] <SpeedEvil> It is just before sunrise
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[17:52] <lz1dev> hysplit so gud
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[18:11] <jededu> I have worked out the uBlox power save mode now I need to turn off the unused NMEA sentences, cant find anything in the wiki
[18:11] <jededu> ping upu
[18:12] <Upu> that which is undocumented
[18:12] <Upu> CFG-GNSS
[18:12] <jededu> Ahh :)
[18:12] <Upu> ucenter
[18:13] <jededu> Yes ive looked at CFG-GNSS
[18:13] <jededu> Is it the same for the MAX8
[18:14] <Upu> yep
[18:15] <jededu> I was using PUBX, 40
[18:17] <Upu> nah you need to use UBX
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[18:19] <jededu> Ok ill fire up ucenter
[18:28] <mikestir> I'd recommend doing the whole thing with UBX jededu, although I realise you're not using C so it's not got quite the same advantages
[18:28] <mikestir> the MAX7 and above have a UBX packet that contains all the interesting navigation values in one go
[18:31] <day> is the http://habmap.philcrump.co.uk/?nobees=1 map correct? according to the map there are currently two balloons over england with a height of ~100m o0
[18:37] <SA6BSS> the map is correct but the balloons are probaly laing in someones workshop being worj´ked on
[18:38] <day> are there really that few flying around? :(
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[18:41] <day> also LORA1 seemed to flew pretty much around the world. But the other end of the line is called 'landing point'. But how can it land it Russia and be in England? It looks more like as if it started in russia, did not burst as predicted aand made it to england
[18:42] <lz1dev> day: try Use I/O cache
[18:42] <lz1dev> i mean http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/
[18:44] <daveake> day That's a live prediction not a flight path
[18:44] <day> i started to think, some of them will never come down :D
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[18:53] <Ian_> It seems to be a fact that the B series of balloons do not come down. Some cease communicating and others just achieve vanishing point :)
[18:55] <mfa298> day: remember that the maps (habmap, spacenear.us, habhub.org/mt) are just the hobbiest balloons. The metoffice launches a number of balloons every day but they're harder for a hobbiest to track
[18:55] <Ian_> The interest in HAB is a multi-disciplined affair involving a lot of technical challenges requiring light weight electronics, extreme power management, EMC considerations, antenna design et al. Something for everyone.
[18:56] <jededu> Thx mikestir
[18:57] <Ian_> Something for everyone to focus their creative thoughts upon and solve real engineering problems, whilst working as part of a large supportive team and having fun taking risks with GoPro cameras that might not always come back home.
[18:57] <day> mfa298: what makes them harder to track? I thought they are meant to pop at a certain height, which would make them quite boring tracking targets. Doe they even transmit their coordinates? I thought they work via triangulation
[18:58] <Ian_> Triangulation would make them harder to track, certainly for an individual.
[18:58] <day> well i guess i answered my own question then :D
[18:59] <mfa298> day: for the met office balloons they don't use an open protocol and I believe some of the gps decoding has to be done on the ground (meaning you need to know some positional information) There is some non-free software available that can do it from someone that managed to reverse engineer at least some of what they send back.
[18:59] <Ian_> Keep reading and following links for a while and you will be surprised how much information you start to acquire.
[19:00] <Ian_> And how many new disciplines you have to embrace to get on top of just some of it . . .
[19:00] <mfa298> The hobbiest stuff (which is more of what the people here are interested in) tends to be more open but flights are generally based around when people have time available and conditions are right for what they want to acheive.
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[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> modding to the max: http://s.gullipics.com/image/2/3/d/5yvgh2-kgmic3-0fij/20141007163629.jpeg
[19:02] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[19:03] <Rebounder> B6-64.. the neverending story
[19:03] <fsphil> now I've got that tune in my head. arg
[19:04] <Rebounder> neverending stooooory... nanana nanana ...
[19:06] <vincentsan> Hello guys, good evening. I'm jumping in ! I've updated my design with all your advices: http://www.up-in-the-air.com/#up2
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:07] <vincentsan> Still (and always) open for criticisms before sending to PCB fab
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[19:10] <Lunar_Lander> vincentsan, do you program with the arduino IDE?
[19:11] <Lunar_Lander> asking because of the 7.3 MHz xtal
[19:11] <vincentsan> now yes, but most of my code is pure C. Will have to switch for ICSP with this design
[19:11] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[19:11] <nats`> vincentsan you have some acid trap but I think your pcb fab will correct that
[19:11] <Lunar_Lander> I had a fail when I saw that the IDE is hardcoded to 8, 16 and 20 MHz
[19:12] <vincentsan> Yep, I had trouble with 4Mhz too
[19:13] <nats`> stick with C
[19:13] <nats`> screw arduino and those crap
[19:13] <nats`> if you can do bare metal it's better :)
[19:13] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[19:13] <nats`> there is a via I'm worrying about vincentsan
[19:14] <nats`> top layer midlle left of the atmega
[19:14] <nats`> it seems really close to the pad
[19:14] <nats`> do you know what fab you'll use
[19:14] <nats`> they usually provide DRU file
[19:15] <day> arduino the 'solution' for everything :X
[19:15] <vincentsan> nats' This one (and most of them was made by the autorouter)
[19:15] <nats`> ?
[19:15] <nats`> I really think you should move those via under the atmega
[19:15] <nats`> they are really close
[19:15] <vincentsan> The vias
[19:15] <nats`> just a little bit to the right
[19:15] <day> 21:12 < Lunar_Lander> vincentsan, do you program with the arduino IDE?
[19:15] <day> 21:13 < Lunar_Lander> asking because of the 7.3 MHz xtal
[19:16] <mikestir> made by the autorouter) <-- therein lies the problem
[19:16] <nats`> mikestir on that shot autorouter did a good job
[19:16] <nats`> and that' have nothing to do with autorouter
[19:16] <vincentsan> hum, I will move them then
[19:16] <nats`> if you set correct clearance autorouter works well
[19:16] <mikestir> I haven't looked at this particular one, but in general EAGLE's autorouter isn't very good
[19:16] <nats`> yep agree
[19:16] <nats`> so look at this one
[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> day yes?
[19:16] <nats`> it's like seeing jesus in a napkin !
[19:17] <mikestir> oh yeah that's surprisingly good :)
[19:17] <mikestir> it usually does helpful things like routing clocks all the way around the outside of the board
[19:17] <day> Lunar_Lander: ?
[19:17] <nats`> or putting via on straight line :D
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[19:18] <day> Lunar_Lander: oh. ive no idea how that post happend o0
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> ah no problem :)
[19:22] <nats`> hey eagle fanboys if you load a DRU before autorouting, does it take account of the rules set ?
[19:23] <kf7fer> nats': You should also drop the VCC connection to V_BCKP
[19:23] <myself> ...and then discards it and runs into walls...
[19:24] <vincentsan> kf7fer, why should I drop the VCC to V_BCKP. craag spoke about that too but it is not what is said in the datasheet ?
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[19:25] <kf7fer> My understanding is you only are supposed to connect V_BCKP if you are using a battery backup
[19:25] <kf7fer> I did it before because I was switching power to the GPS on and off
[19:26] <vincentsan> If you look at the HardwareIntegrationManual : Backup supply voltage input pin. Connect to VCC_IO if not used.
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[19:26] <vincentsan> And somewhere else : If no backup supply voltage is available, connect the V_BCKP pin to VCC_IO (or to VCC if not avaiable).
[19:27] <vincentsan> Maybe in practice it is better not to connect them
[19:28] <vincentsan> Upu's Ublox breakout does not connect them I think (but I would do it if I understand it)
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[19:29] <kf7fer> vincentsan: Ok, you are correct. I had thought I'd made a mistake
[19:29] <kf7fer> looks like the MAX-6 suggests connecting this to GND if there is no battery.
[19:30] <kf7fer> (hardware integration guide)
[19:30] <kf7fer> (I've been connecting V_BCKP to VCC as well so I know it works I just thought I shouldn't be doing it)
[19:32] <vincentsan> Yes, I can see that in the migration guide
[19:32] <vincentsan> very strange
[19:32] <nats`> internal crap maybe
[19:32] <kf7fer> How thick of a wire as you using btw?
[19:33] <kf7fer> as=are
[19:33] <nats`> those ublox are basically arm + gps IP
[19:34] <Rebounder> SA6BSS: test
[19:34] <vincentsan> kf7fer, no idea :)
[19:34] <kf7fer> well if you select "info", then click on one of the wires it will tell you what size it is
[19:34] <kf7fer> Just thinking you should thicken those traces if you can
[19:34] <nats`> not so much current isn"t it ?
[19:34] <kf7fer> I try to use as thick as possible (20mils as a minimum unless it won't fit)
[19:36] <kf7fer> I'm thinking is less about current and more about manufacturing
[19:36] <kf7fer> but shouldn't power and ground traces be thicker?
[19:36] <kf7fer> than the other traces I mean?
[19:36] <kf7fer> just as a rule of thumb?
[19:36] <vincentsan> 0.254mm
[19:37] <vincentsan> 10 mils, too small ?
[19:37] <nats`> kf7fer it depends on current
[19:37] <nats`> vincentsan it's good
[19:37] <nats`> almost every fab will take 0.152 minimum
[19:37] <nats`> you're twice thicker
[19:38] <vincentsan> what about the space between ground place and routes ? I've chosen 0.4064mm insolation. Should be ok ?
[19:39] <kf7fer> OSHPark is min 6mils
[19:39] <nats`> it's ok
[19:39] <vincentsan> great, thanks guys
[19:39] <nats`> ground clearance to trace is to be calculated but on 2 layers it's more a "pifometric" system
[19:39] <jededu> Is there a way to export the config from ucenter
[19:42] <kf7fer> nats': ok one last attempt at being helpful: Make sure the length of the antenna trace is at least 1mm between the ublox and the antenna. Can't tell if you've got enough space
[19:43] <nats`> true I forgot this one
[19:43] <nats`> :)
[19:44] <vincentsan> hum...
[19:45] <kf7fer> oops sorry that was meant for vincentsan
[19:45] <Lunar_Lander> what's your PCB fab btw?
[19:45] <vincentsan> for the 50 ohms impedance line ?
[19:45] <kf7fer> no I'm talking about the ublox antenna feed
[19:46] <kf7fer> that's not 50 ohms is it?
[19:46] <vincentsan> now ? no idea :)
[19:47] <vincentsan> yes the feed should be size to be 50 ohm
[19:47] <vincentsan> But I was thinking the smaller the better
[19:47] <kf7fer> I don't think it really matters at that length. Just make sure the line is at least 1mm
[19:47] <kf7fer> line=trace
[19:48] <nats`> forget about 50ohm
[19:48] <nats`> just put the antenna far away from gnd plane
[19:48] <nats`> :)
[19:48] <nats`> to match 50 ohm on your 2 layer it's a loss of time :)
[19:49] <vincentsan> ok, but why at least 1mm ?
[19:50] <nats`> because your antenna will be near the gnd plane
[19:50] <nats`> and so her performance will be poor
[19:50] <nats`> (simple version)
[19:50] <vincentsan> ok, simple version is enough :)
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[19:51] <nats`> for information you could even change the ceramic antenna by a solid metal wire :)
[19:52] <kf7fer> reports are that it's even better (if perhaps a bit less convenient)
[19:52] <nats`> yep it's bette r:)
[19:52] <nats`> because you can tweak the length
[19:52] <nats`> and ceramic antenna are easily detuned
[19:52] <nats`> by pcb and part around
[19:53] <kf7fer> but you'll poke your eye out!
[19:54] <vincentsan> hum ! I could maybe catch GLONASS with a wire antenna
[19:54] <vincentsan> but I'll stick to the ceramic antenna for this first design
[19:55] <nats`> no need to change design :)
[19:56] <nats`> on one you'll just don't equip ceramic and put a wire :)
[19:57] <vincentsan> yes, I will definitely try it. But how do I tune it ?
[19:57] <nats`> pifometric system :)
[19:57] <nats`> you take the 1/4 wavelength
[19:57] <nats`> and it should be ok in that case
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[19:59] <kf7fer> do you have to subtract 1mm for the trace length?
[19:59] <kf7fer> ;-)
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[20:00] <LeoBodnar> you can't make "impedance line" that is << than wavelength
[20:02] <LeoBodnar> which is around 100mm for GPS on FR4
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[20:02] <LeoBodnar> so a piece of 5mm track is a lumped component
[20:04] <Laurenceb_> woo hoo
[20:04] <Laurenceb_> B-64
[20:04] <kf7fer> so the length of the antenna doesn't start until after that "lumped component"?
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[20:10] <kf7fer> vincentsan: Have you read Atmel's AVR042?
[20:10] <kf7fer> http://www.atmel.com/images/atmel-2521-avr-hardware-design-considerations_application-note_avr042.pdf
[20:11] <vincentsan> kf7fer, yes altough not linearly
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: B-64 battery died?
[20:12] <kf7fer> I'm often wrong, but I thought it was common practice to add a pullup on reset? Since the internal pullup may not be enough.
[20:12] <kf7fer> Also I see that newer designs also use a diode as well
[20:13] <vincentsan> kf7fer, I did put one at first but yesterday I was told it was not necessary because on the internal one
[20:14] <kf7fer> ok. Just wondering. You mean like I was told not to connect V_BCKP?
[20:15] <vincentsan> I found references in the datasheet to connect V_BCKP to both VCC and GND !
[20:15] <LeoBodnar> kf7fer you can use the edge of the groundplane as an antenn starting point
[20:16] <Upu> if you don't use it the datasheet always said tie it to GNS vincentsan
[20:17] <Upu> GND
[20:17] <Upu> however
[20:17] <Upu> you can leave it floating, nothing untoward happens
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[20:19] <vincentsan> Upu, I am lost here: Page 10 of the Hardware Integration Manual says "If no backup supply voltage is available, connect the V_BCKP pin to VCC_IO (or to VCC if not avaiable)."
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[20:20] <Upu> did they change it again
[20:20] <kf7fer> it changed between the MAX-6 and 7
[20:20] <Upu> doesn't really matter I suspect
[20:21] <Upu> didn't notice that
[20:21] <Upu> well I always connect to GND and its never caused an issue
[20:21] <kf7fer> I was just afraid that I was causing extra current draw
[20:21] <Upu> also they claim MAX 6 , 7 and 8 are pin for pin compatible
[20:21] <Upu> if you are
[20:21] <Upu> its 15µA
[20:22] <Upu> I was doing some calcs on how long a 0.2F super cap would run it for today
[20:22] <kf7fer> So if I ignore the datasheet the result is lower power consumption? That kinda... blows
[20:22] <kf7fer> I typically get hosed because I don't read them
[20:22] <Upu> 15µA Brad
[20:23] <Upu> if thats an issue you have bigger issues :)
[20:23] <kf7fer> well I do have bigger issues but that's for anothe channel
[20:23] <vincentsan> conclusion : according to the datasheets, connect to either GND, VCC or nothing should work :) Has anyone even tested the backup. It is maybe a fake :)
[20:23] <Upu> actually its 100µA for the 8C
[20:23] <Upu> but it only draws it if the module is powered down I think
[20:23] <jededu> upu and how long did it last
[20:23] <Upu> I think it was about 18 hours on the Q's
[20:24] <Upu> no hang on
[20:24] <jededu> Cool
[20:24] <Upu> it was 57 mins on the C's
[20:24] <Upu> so about 6 hours on the Q's
[20:24] <jededu> Still good
[20:25] <vincentsan> wow
[20:25] <kf7fer> Upu: So does that include getting a fix and running?
[20:25] <Upu> no thats just the battery backup
[20:25] <kf7fer> when it's powered down?
[20:25] <Upu> yes
[20:25] <jededu> Sorted the UBX NEMA disable :)
[20:26] <Upu> now GNSS jededu :)
[20:27] <jededu> Yep and that
[20:29] <jededu> All I have in ucenter is gps gpgga
[20:31] <jededu> and I think I have exported the config file correctly
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[20:32] <jededu> Now to write it into the code
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[21:21] <qyx_> most of the mtk and sirfstar gps modules required backup voltage to be applied even during normal operation
[21:21] <qyx_> but never used ubloxes
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[21:28] <Upu> they don't
[21:28] <Upu> all mine are connected to GND
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[21:33] <kf7fer> So does anyone know if it's possible for Eagle to flag any of my traces that are NOT at a 45 degree angle?
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[21:34] <qyx_> simply draw them at different angles?
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[21:41] <kf7fer> Well I was wondering about finding any cases where I didn't do that.
[21:41] <chrisstubbs> -Check Angle - If you routed anything with a different style than the 45- or 90-degree turns, or if you moved a part after routing, checking this box will make Eagle yell at you for doing that.
[21:41] <chrisstubbs> in the DRC apparently
[21:42] <chrisstubbs> ah that might accept 90 degree angles
[21:42] <kf7fer> thanks! In DRC -> Misc -> "Check Angles". And that's good enough for me; I try and avoid 90 but may have...err... slipped on my 45's due to space
[21:45] <kf7fer> It does seem to generate a bit of noise though
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[23:38] <lz1dev> !whereis b-64
[23:38] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: 03B-64 was over 03Pavlovsky District, Altai Krai, Russia 10(53.478,82.8141) at 0311832 meters about 035 hours ago
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[23:44] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[00:00] --- Thu Oct 9 2014