highaltitude.log.20141001

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[05:13] <det_> good morning all
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[07:30] <tjanos> morning!
[07:31] <tjanos> Seems, for AETH22-3 need more 1-2 days to reach Eu? http://aprs.fi/#!call=a%2FAETH22-3&timerange=86400&tail=86400
[07:31] <tjanos> http://www.ready.noaa.gov/hypubout/15102_trj001.gif
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[07:37] <tjanos> are there any info the used aprs frequency on it?
[07:37] <UpuWork> 144.390
[07:37] <UpuWork> and the batteries are probably dead
[07:37] <tjanos> ok, thanks
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[07:37] <tjanos> hmmm...
[07:38] <fsphil> nothing last night anyway
[07:38] <fsphil> remembered to leave the radio on this time
[07:39] <tjanos> seems, there are godd iet streems there , 185 km/h
[07:39] <tjanos> good
[07:39] <tjanos> jet
[07:43] <x-f> streams
[07:49] <tjanos> x-f: thanks. My keyboard use is strange. Is it use 6 Watt? http://www.bigredbee.com/faq.htm
[07:49] <LeoBodnar> looks like it.
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[07:50] <LeoBodnar> I am looking forward for it coming here over UK
[07:50] <UpuWork> haha
[07:50] <LeoBodnar> 6W on 144.390 airborne what could cheer you up more?
[07:50] <UpuWork> I can feel the amateur radio community gearing up for an epic level of moaning
[07:50] <fsphil> and there was me worried that my antenna might not be sensitive enough
[07:50] <fsphil> it might overload my radio
[07:50] Action: fsphil starts a letter of complaint
[07:51] <UpuWork> Aether guys will be like http://i.imgur.com/RM7bR7X.gif
[07:52] <gonzo_> royal society of gas bags starts extradition proceedings....
[07:53] <fsphil> I imagine these are quite large balloons, they might be visible optically
[07:57] <tjanos> looks like: http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-ft-dia-Professional-Weather-Balloon-150g-orange-New-/371125871880?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5668d36508
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[07:58] <McLinks> I'm trying to read up on this whole thing.. what is "b-flights"? looking at the map at spacenearus.com they seam to be balloons that stay up for a long time...
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[07:58] <fsphil> a very long time
[07:59] <fsphil> they're superpressure balloons, rise to a certain altitude then float
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[08:01] <tjanos> By the way, are there any web page with up-to-date info about b-balloons? It seems, leobodnar/balloons-pages not have the case
[08:01] <McLinks> os. Is there a place that lists flights with fq etc?
[08:02] <UpuWork> !flights
[08:02] <SpacenearUS> 03UpuWork: Current flights:
[08:02] <fsphil> haven't heard from the B's in quite a while
[08:02] <UpuWork> I think B-66 is dead
[08:03] <UpuWork> B-64 is probably fine just over nowhere
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[08:03] <tjanos> after how many km-s?
[08:04] <UpuWork> B-66 was 69583km
[08:04] <UpuWork> B-64 is 108155km
[08:04] <UpuWork> about 1/3rd of the way to the moon
[08:04] <tjanos> Oh... thanks
[08:05] <tjanos> are there any facts/speculations, why the B66 was dead?
[08:05] <gonzo_> B64 on another little arctic excursion?
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[08:12] <mfa298> tjanos: I don't think they were expected to last more than around a week certainly not this long
[08:12] <mfa298> I think someone had calculated the helium was supposed to have diffused enough through the balloon about a month ago so they'de have started coming down then (although I'm not sure there's much evidence of that happening)
[08:16] <tjanos> since jul 19 there are enough time to lost some helium, through the best foil material too
[08:17] <craag> Are these ones polythene or foil?
[08:18] <gonzo_> the leo-mk1 self sealing system. Consisting of a small imp, with a John Bull repair kit
[08:18] <craag> :)
[08:19] <fsphil> there is a slight decline in altitude on one of the Bs
[08:19] <fsphil> that may well be the helium escaping
[08:19] <gonzo_> not quite sure what it uses in place of the bucket of water though
[08:19] <tjanos> or 15 jul ? (in the headline of balloons/B-66
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[08:43] <amell> anyone for some underground habbing? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29413045
[08:43] <fsphil> LABing
[08:44] <fsphil> sub-terranean altitude balloon has an unfortunate acronym
[08:48] <daveake> Buy the bits at cosycave
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[09:10] <vincentsan> First successful balloon flight yesterday !
[09:13] <nats`> some of you use gqrx ?
[09:14] <nats`> cool vincentsan :)
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[09:18] Nick change: gonzo_ -> gonzo__
[09:19] <fsphil> nice one vincentsan
[09:19] <fsphil> nats`: yea
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[09:21] <vincentsan> It was a first flight so not very far but enough to test
[09:21] Nick change: gonzo__ -> gonzo_
[09:21] <vincentsan> Small sumup here: http://www.up-in-the-air.com/
[09:23] <nats`> fsphil maybe for my modulation I could add it to gqrx
[09:23] <nats`> is there any plugin system ?
[09:23] <nats`> I really don't want to rewrite from scratch an application to listen to audio input etc
[09:23] <nats`> I would have take sdrsharp but windows only
[09:24] <vincentsan> I used the TCP to pilot the freq from fldigi
[09:24] <fsphil> what's your modulation?
[09:25] <fsphil> I don't think gqrx has a plugin system at the moment
[09:25] <nats`> oky so I'll end up either writing from scratch something or trying to dig into fldigi
[09:25] <nats`> what I saw at the moment from fldigi is...... ewwwkkkk
[09:25] <vincentsan> no, but you can do some basic controp over TCP : http://gqrx.dk/doc/remote-control
[09:25] <fsphil> cute payload vincentsan
[09:26] <vincentsan> fsphil, thanks
[09:26] <nats`> vincentsan it's not really the problem I need to access the IQ stream to make a demod :)
[09:26] <fsphil> you don't want to do IQ in fldigi :)
[09:26] <vincentsan> nats, ah yes won't work then
[09:27] <nats`> fsphil I can either make the IQ modulation myself
[09:27] <fsphil> what was the altitude, 1.1, 3.7 or 1.582?
[09:27] <nats`> or handle it in real
[09:28] <vincentsan> 1582m
[09:28] <fsphil> hehe
[09:28] <fsphil> new record perhaps :)
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[09:29] <vincentsan> hehe ! Did not wanted to go too far
[09:29] <daveake> Opposite of Mexican
[09:29] <fsphil> agreed on the parachute colour issue
[09:29] <vincentsan> It was a LAB
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[09:30] <vincentsan> fsphil, do you have any inputs on the GPS ?
[09:30] <fsphil> a brightly coloured chute is ideal, as it's often the first thing spotted at a distance
[09:30] <daveake> agreed
[09:30] <fsphil> what you wrapped it in might cause gps problems
[09:31] <nats`> fsphil if I wanted to tweak fldigi should I start on dl-fldigi or on fldigi ?
[09:31] <fsphil> anything conductive near the antenna will reduce its sensitivity
[09:31] <vincentsan> I removed all wrapping before launch. But even though, was very long to get a fix
[09:31] <fsphil> nats`: depends what your goal is, if it's a HABy thing then dl-
[09:31] <nats`> haby
[09:32] Action: nats` is taking a deepbreath before checkouting source
[09:32] <fsphil> you'd LOVE fldigi's source code
[09:32] <daveake> s/love/HATE/
[09:32] <vincentsan> fsphil, maybe Lipo beneath
[09:33] <gonzo_> with small antennas, I find it can take 20min to get a gps ,lock
[09:33] <nats`> fsphil I already had a look my eyes are stil bleeding
[09:33] <fsphil> lol
[09:33] <nats`> the only other solution would be to make C++ QT application from scratch
[09:33] <fsphil> the power cable might be a bit close
[09:33] <nats`> but alone is not a good idea
[09:33] <fsphil> to the gps antenna
[09:33] <fsphil> and the board underneath
[09:34] <fsphil> or it could just have been fewer satellites in the sky at that time
[09:34] <vincentsan> gonzo, I see
[09:34] <daveake> yeah they like to hide round the other side
[09:34] <vincentsan> fsphil, what about the chip scale antenna orientation ?
[09:35] <fsphil> but from cold it can take up to ~20 minutes
[09:35] <fsphil> I'd normally have it like in that picture, the chip being vertical
[09:35] <vincentsan> should it be vertical or horizontal ?
[09:35] <gonzo_> the gps sats transmit circular pol. So using a linear antenna, the pol should not matter
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[09:36] <vincentsan> gonzo_, thanks good point
[09:36] <gonzo_> most important is putting the antenna clear of obstructions and sourc es of interference
[09:37] <gonzo_> (cheap key fob cameras/switchng PSUs wiring carrying noise from these things
[09:38] <vincentsan> do you think power lines could be a source of interference ? There were some 500m away in the first launch site
[09:38] <gonzo_> and if using foil balloons, keep them clear till you get lock too
[09:38] <gonzo_> very unlikley
[09:39] <gonzo_> mains power lines will be mainly low freq noise in the 10's of MHz range, gps is around 1.5GHz
[09:40] <vincentsan> Yes, that was also my thinking
[09:40] <vincentsan> About the RFM69, do you think I could receive packet with dBm closer to the receiver sensitivity (-120dBm) ?
[09:40] <gonzo_> on my few flights, I have usually left the payload running for a while, to get lock, whilst preparing other stuff.
[09:41] <gonzo_> not a clue, someone else with experiance of that module may jump in
[09:41] <vincentsan> this is what I did, but it took 30 min to get the first lock and then just sticking the latex balloon above made me loose the lock
[09:41] <vincentsan> got it back in the air !
[09:43] <gonzo_> does not sound good. Some local interference in the payload?
[09:43] <gonzo_> launching without loock is not good practice
[09:44] <vincentsan> I see. Might have been the Lipo beneath
[09:44] <vincentsan> (not in the picture)
[09:44] <fsphil> switch mode PSUs are very noisy
[09:45] <fsphil> *can be very noisy
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[09:45] <fsphil> there may be good types out there (RF wise)
[09:46] <gonzo_> mainly down to grounding and filtering I recon
[09:47] <vincentsan> hum, second launch site was better
[09:47] <vincentsan> 5 min to get a lock
[09:48] <vincentsan> Anyways, I'll start working on version 2
[09:49] <vincentsan> Hope to get over 5km ;-)
[09:49] <gonzo_> does that processor board you were using have a switch mode regulator on it?
[09:49] <mfa298> vincentsan: we use the rfm69 in it's packet mode as part of #ukhasnet and a few have been flown with mixed results (best was around 60km) but you're then reliant on the module decoding it so I'm not sure I'd want to rely on that yet
[09:49] <gonzo_> the balloon you are using looks to be quite heavilly inflated. So you will not get muct altitude before burst.
[09:50] <mfa298> nats`: another place to start with for code is rtl_fm (console and rtl dongle based but might be an easier bit of source to start with)
[09:51] <nats`> mfa298 yep but I don't want to use rtl or gnuradio dependance because I want to rpeserve compliance with old audio rig :)
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[09:51] <vincentsan> this was a MCP1703, LDO regulator
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[09:53] <vincentsan> mfa298, I see. So you do the CRC checksum yourself ?
[09:53] <craag> vincentsan: we use the rfm69 internal crc
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[09:54] <vincentsan> mfa298, I think that if sensitivity is around -120dBm, I can normally expect to receive full 40bits PACKET only for a greater power. I am just thinking how to get the closest to -120dBm
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[09:55] <mfa298> nats`: In that case I'd be half tempted to start from scratch. There's been a lot of talk about moving away from fldigi for HAB as it seems to have a lot of issues (the last time a merge was tried it caused issues with rtty decoding as someone just put random numbers in with a this might work attitude)
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[09:55] <vincentsan> craag, what motivated the 868Mhz versus 434Mhz channel ?
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[09:56] <craag> vincentsan: Can use 100mw with 10% duty cycle limit. And 868 seems to be less crowded.
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[09:57] <vincentsan> craag: I see. What it the lowest RSSI you get for a full PACKET transmission ?
[09:58] <nats`> mfa298 after discussion with fsphil I'll go from scratch QT + C++
[09:58] <craag> I think the lowest we've seen was -113dBm from the balloon
[09:58] <qyx_> craag: rx on rfm69?
[09:58] <craag> We use 2kbps
[09:58] <craag> yeah
[09:58] <qyx_> hm, i found out that some parameters alter rssi readings
[09:59] <mfa298> nats`: ideally try and make something we can easily add other stuff too and we might be able to get rid of dl-fldigi :)
[09:59] <qyx_> dagc mainly
[09:59] <vincentsan> do you thing increasing the preamble and sync word could increase the range ?
[09:59] <craag> qyx_: Yeah - I don't trust it much
[09:59] <mfa298> and I like C++ so that aspect makes me happy :)
[09:59] <nats`> mfa298 the the idea
[09:59] <nats`> that's
[09:59] <nats`> I'm doing some model of "universal" class
[10:00] <qyx_> vincentsan: no, increasing sync word length will decrease false positives count
[10:00] <craag> vincentsan: No, opposite if anything
[10:00] <qyx_> but you are doing crc either, so it doesn't matter much
[10:00] <vincentsan> what about preamble ?
[10:01] <qyx_> longer preamble is good only for antenna diversity, receiver sync, accurate FEI / AFC and such
[10:01] <qyx_> rfm69 bit synchronizer can work with very short preamble
[10:01] <vincentsan> Ok, thanks for the advice
[10:02] <craag> vincentsan: I notice you have no ground plane on the tx antenna, that may help!
[10:02] <amell> vincentsan: just looked at your page. did you actually launch a bright yellow party balloon?
[10:02] <craag> rtty is very forgiving of crappy antennas
[10:02] <vincentsan> craag, I had to remove it with the insulation layer (because was getting poor GPS reception)
[10:02] <craag> due to massive link budget
[10:02] <craag> packet modes not so much
[10:03] <vincentsan> amell, yeah ! Why not :)
[10:03] <craag> vincentsan: The groundplane needs to be connected to 0V as well.
[10:03] <amell> vincentsan: surprised it got that high! where did you get balloon from?
[10:04] <qyx_> craag: also check RFM69_REG_18_LNA, do you use 50ohm setting?
[10:04] <qyx_> it gives me about 2dB worse rssi
[10:04] <vincentsan> amell, Qualatex on Ebay, but watch out, they mixed some size I burst two 12¨ balloons before noticing
[10:04] <qyx_> i wonder what is their matching circuit
[10:04] <amell> vincentsan: why not use foil?
[10:04] <craag> qyx_: I tried both on my nodes, got better on the 50 ohm setting
[10:04] <qyx_> hmm
[10:05] <vincentsan> craag, ok I will definitly had them for next flight
[10:05] <amell> vincentsan: i have some 100g pawan here in cambridge if you want to try one of those
[10:05] <craag> qyx_: I really need to buy the factory tuned antennas though rather than trimming wires.
[10:06] <mattbrejza> vna...
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[10:06] <qyx_> craag: i am about to check our local uni lab, they offer some services for quite low cost
[10:06] <craag> mattbrejza: vna would be nice... but I'd need to buy hundreds of antennas to make up the cost!
[10:07] <mattbrejza> i wasnt suggesting you buy one :P
[10:07] <mattbrejza> also a carefully cut 1/4wave whip is probably better than a shitty mass-produced thing
[10:07] <vincentsan> qyx_, default 200ohms :( Will try with 50 next time
[10:07] <mattbrejza> i was more thinking of measuring the impedance of the rfm rf in
[10:08] <vincentsan> amell, I did not want it to go too high. This was my first flight
[10:08] <vincentsan> amell, I calculated it should go up to 2400m
[10:08] <craag> I had a flight that floated at 1500m... that was worse.
[10:08] <amell> nice :)
[10:10] <vincentsan> I imagine but I had a 24g light for a 20g weight
[10:10] <vincentsan> so it went up quite fast
[10:10] <vincentsan> (spinning in fact)
[10:12] <vincentsan> so ukhasnet guy, do you think receiving at -104dB seems OK, or there was something else wrong (apart from the 200ohm setting and missing ground plane) ?
[10:12] <craag> the 36" foil qualatex are quite good for that kind of weight
[10:12] <vincentsan> guys
[10:12] <craag> -104 is ok. Not amazing. But we had ~30km distance at that rssi so your antennas could do with improvement.
[10:13] <vincentsan> yes but foil would mean no burst right ? And a very long flight ? I did not want to exceed 30 min.
[10:14] <vincentsan> craag, thank you for the reference
[10:15] <vincentsan> what about simple FEC (repeat 3 times) with no RFM69 CRC and CRC check on Atmega ?
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[10:18] <craag> vincentsan: The foils only float when free lift (lift with paylod attached) is less than about 5g
[10:18] <craag> Use ~12g of free lift and you'll be fine
[10:19] <vincentsan> craag, ok
[10:19] <craag> vincentsan: https://philcrump.co.uk/CRAAG1
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[10:19] <craag> why are my photos broken...
[10:21] <vincentsan> craag, nice ! Very similar though more professional ;)
[10:22] <vincentsan> craag, true that it would be nicer with pictures !
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[10:23] <craag> click on the pictures, scroll down to the thumbnail, then click on it
[10:23] <craag> that works
[10:23] <craag> eg https://philcrump.co.uk/images/8/8b/CRAAG1_Camera_After_Filling.jpg
[10:23] <craag> ^^ That was 50g payload + 11g free lift
[10:24] <vincentsan> I am aiming for CRAAG2 now !
[10:24] <vincentsan> Did you flight it ?
[10:25] <craag> I did fly it doing rtty on 868MHz
[10:25] <craag> which I have since found is not legal
[10:25] <craag> there was a wiring fault on the PCB unfortunately that caused intermittent issues with the RFM22
[10:25] <craag> so haven't flown it since
[10:26] <gonzo_> unless you assume that the time that you are not flying is the 90% off duty
[10:26] <craag> gonzo_: The docs state that the maximum continuous TX time is 1s
[10:27] <vincentsan> craag, how did you design the PCB board ?
[10:28] <craag> vincentsan: In a program called Eagle. You import parts from libraries, make the circuit diagram, then place all the parts on a layout and wire them up.
[10:29] <daveake> That sounds simple :p
[10:29] <craag> Heh yeah put aside a few hours...
[10:29] <craag> more on the first go....
[10:30] <craag> sooo satisfying though :)
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[10:30] <vincentsan> craag, Indeed :) What I meant is how did you choose to position your elements. UBlox intergration manual seems very picky on GPS position and surrounding elements.
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[10:31] <craag> vincentsan: These are some trackers and a packet receiver board that mattbrejza has just put together in eagle and sent off to a factory: https://twitter.com/SUSpaceflight/status/516932061920497664/photo/1
[10:31] <craag> Read *all* the datasheets
[10:31] <craag> also look at how other people have done it
[10:31] <craag> eg Anthony's GPS breakout boards on hab supplies
[10:31] <craag> but first read the datasheets... don't rely on other people to get it right!
[10:32] <craag> Then you can always post it up here for us to critique
[10:33] <vincentsan> craag, I will. After first LowAB, I will dive into SMD boards and soldering...
[10:33] <mattbrejza> forgot the #ukhas hashtag, such a social media n00b
[10:34] <vincentsan> craag, do you know where I can find Open Source designs ?
[10:34] <mattbrejza> github
[10:34] <vincentsan> I am looking for Atmega328p + RFM69 + Max7C + MCP7940N
[10:34] <craag> Anthony has a library of nearly all the parts in his shop which is useful
[10:35] <vincentsan> yes, I have seen that
[10:35] <craag> He'll have mega328 and max7v
[10:35] <craag> *7
[10:35] <vincentsan> I am looking for full board designs to inspire me
[10:36] <craag> vincentsan: How about this then: https://github.com/philcrump/UKHASnet-avr-sensor
[10:36] <craag> It's not gps
[10:36] <craag> not a hab board
[10:36] <craag> but has through-hole 328 and rfm69 and reg
[10:36] <craag> (see V2/*png)
[10:37] <mattbrejza> the top of https://twitter.com/SUSpaceflight/status/516932061920497664/photo/1
[10:37] <mattbrejza> is through hole
[10:37] <mattbrejza> tracker
[10:38] <craag> ^^ That's with rfm98 btw - different module
[10:38] <vincentsan> craag, yes would be a start
[10:38] <craag> Also you can see the eagle files for those trackers at: https://github.com/suspaceflight/lora-tracker
[10:39] <vincentsan> mattbrejza, do you know where to find the eagle files ?
[10:39] <mattbrejza> for what?
[10:41] <vincentsan> to build my own tracker (Atmega328p + RFM69 + Max7C + MCP7940N). I like to do everything from scratch to understand well but at the same time relying on other's experience prevent me from obvious mistakes !
[10:42] <mattbrejza> i thought you were after something more specific, but the link craag posted is a start
[10:43] <craag> vincentsan: Take some time playing with eagle before starting anything serious
[10:43] <vincentsan> craag, I will. Thank you very much for all your advices.
[10:44] <vincentsan> I'll keep you posted with my progresses
[10:44] <craag> :)
[10:44] <craag> There are several other bits of software for PCB design
[10:45] <craag> But eagle is probably the most popular here at the moment
[10:48] <vincentsan> craag, some easier ones ? with my four components available in lib ?
[10:49] <craag> I don't know - I found eagle the most intuitive
[10:50] <craag> Do some googling and reading though - try it all out - see what you think
[10:54] <vincentsan> Yep, thank you again. I'll start this right away. Cheers !
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[12:20] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03EDUPIC3 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=EDUPIC3
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[12:22] <edmoore> is edupid launching jededu ?
[12:22] <edmoore> edupic*
[12:22] <edmoore> and if so as the prediction not over a major city?
[12:22] <craag> He did launch it due east last time
[12:23] <craag> and the prediction is showing east-north-east
[12:23] <edmoore> cool
[12:23] <daveake> yeah looks ok
[12:24] <craag> Wonder if he's changed the freq..
[12:24] Nick change: craag -> M0DNY
[12:24] <daveake> away from Radio Leo ?
[12:24] Action: M0DNY picks up the pitchfork
[12:25] <M0DNY> narr, away from my repeataaaaarrr
[12:25] <edmoore> going in all heavy with the M0's
[12:25] <edmoore> could form a gang of ham thungs
[12:25] <edmoore> the M0FO's
[12:25] Nick change: M0DNY -> craag
[12:26] <craag> lol
[12:27] <fsphil> MI0MI
[12:31] <edmoore> there exists a wearable quadcopter
[12:31] <edmoore> they should put a pi on it and use it to load-test the hackaday server
[12:33] <fsphil> not sure the market for flying clothes is very big
[12:33] <edmoore> how many unused raspberry pis are there?
[12:33] <edmoore> i would hazard 'most of them'
[12:33] <edmoore> sitting in drawers or in piles on desks
[12:33] <edmoore> you can make money from people who don;t understand what they're doing or what they're buying
[12:34] Action: mfa298 looks at the box behind him
[12:34] <daveake> I think I have an unused one here
[12:34] <mfa298> yep, still lots of unused pi's there
[12:34] <craag> Send them to me! I've run out...
[12:34] <fsphil> there should be a Pi amnesty
[12:34] <edmoore> daveake is at the top of the league table for doing Actual Stuff with Pi's
[12:34] <fsphil> most of mine are doing CCTV
[12:35] <edmoore> i suspect the 99% just thought 'cool!' after reading edgadget and havn't touched it since
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: on a completely unrelated topic - how much hardware have you bought and not touched?
[12:35] <daveake> I'd list all the different things I've done with them, but I always forget 2 or 3 when I try
[12:35] <mfa298> In terms of number used in a single project I might win out on that. I almost made it to 90.
[12:35] <edmoore> SpeedEvil, what kind of hardware?
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> :)
[12:35] <edmoore> my weakness is text books
[12:35] <daveake> mfa298 OK I lose that one :0
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: yeah
[12:35] <edmoore> i buy more than i have time to properly work through
[12:36] <edmoore> i think i'm decent with tools though
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> edmoore: if only smoothies worked.
[12:36] <craag> mfa298: Yeah you got us beat. 31 deployed so far here.
[12:36] <edmoore> i tend to use the tools i buy
[12:36] <fsphil> I have several unused STM32 dev boards
[12:36] <fsphil> well, they blink
[12:36] <edmoore> i think dev boards are expendable anyway
[12:36] <edmoore> i buy them to get the toolchain working
[12:36] <edmoore> the second i'm happy i can probably do what i want, i make a custom pcb
[12:36] <edmoore> and the dev board has done its job
[12:37] <SpeedEvil> yeah - that's used though, even if once.
[12:37] <SpeedEvil> Buying stuff that remains on the shelf is way too easy for many
[12:38] <edmoore> i did once get a kitchen knife i didn't really need
[12:38] <edmoore> it was a very shiny japanese damascus steel thing for lots of money
[12:38] <edmoore> stupid stupid purchase
[12:39] <edmoore> i think i'd just got the job offer that involved me moving to oxford so i made a celebratory splurge in cambridge
[12:39] <gonzo_> but did you later wonder how you ever got by withoyt that knife?
[12:40] <edmoore> no
[12:40] <edmoore> i still don;t use it much
[12:40] <edmoore> i use it if there are two of us cooking
[12:40] <edmoore> but when it's just me cooking, i have a wusthoff chef's knife and a wusthoff paring knife and i use those two for everything
[12:40] <gonzo_> (though I still thinbk it's hard to beat a good tool steel)
[12:40] <edmoore> and never feel like i need anything else
[12:40] <edmoore> except for filleting fish or something
[12:50] Action: mfa298 considers setting up a pi to monitor the 3D printer. One home user product to monitor another - that'll work right ?
[12:50] <edmoore> this conversation has made me just buy a filleting knife
[12:50] <edmoore> the cycle of destruction continues
[12:51] <daveake> Your knife block has an empty slot
[12:51] <daveake> This will .... fill it
[12:52] <edmoore> that is true actually
[12:52] <edmoore> and i do find my big knife a bit cumbersome for filleting fish
[12:52] <edmoore> and i am having a lot more fish atm
[12:52] <edmoore> so...
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[13:01] Action: SpeedEvil thinks of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkjbMoj0JY4
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[13:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 030x01 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=0x01
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[13:19] <gonzo_> you can never have too many tools. Whether they be knives or spanners
[13:19] <gonzo_> you can have to many crap quality tools though
[13:21] <jededu> edmoore it launched yesterday it was a 20g payload on a foil and no major cities were in danger http://imgur.com/iuBn2nW,uHEieMD#0
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[13:36] <myself> "no major cities were in danger".... but it did lay waste to a significant swath of agricultural land and country side, and wipe two small indigenous communities off the map
[13:36] <myself> with a purposeful grimce and a foil balloon, he pulls the spitting high-tension wires down...
[13:36] Action: myself jams out on the guitar
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[13:42] <gonzo_> I think a foil ballon would be self deleting, on HT wires.
[13:45] <nats`> edmoore that's all the point to have devboard given by manufacturer :D
[13:45] <edmoore> indeed
[13:45] <nats`> so you can look at them guilty free and say HAHAHAHA Never I'll use you !
[13:46] <nats`> I have a bunch of stm32 crap I'll never use
[13:46] <nats`> but they are happy to give them and hope we will feel the epiphany
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[15:15] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SR0FLY - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=SR0FLY
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[17:19] <LeoBodnar> 22-3 http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/119854_trj001.gif
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[17:22] <LeoBodnar> 22-1 http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/120153_trj001.gif
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[17:27] <Maxell> sweet
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[17:53] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[17:53] <fsphil> yoyo
[17:53] <fsphil> LeoBodnar: aww
[17:53] Action: fsphil turns off igate
[17:54] <fsphil> tried direwolf. handy that it's all in one program now (sound capture, demodulation and igate)
[17:54] <fsphil> but annoying that it insists on overriding the console colour settings
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[18:22] <Maxell> fsphil: yeah "-t 0" for that
[18:22] <fsphil> ah there's a flag, thanks
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[18:44] <nats`> plop
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[19:03] <Upu> where are those Aether balloons mean to come ashore ?
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[19:19] <amell> Upu: spain western coast apparently
[19:21] <Upu> ok ta
[19:32] <Laurenceb__> when?
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[19:32] <amell> [LeoBodnar: 22-3 http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/119854_trj001.gif]
[19:33] <amell> noon tomorrow?
[19:39] <Laurenceb__> might just be in range tonight
[19:40] <kf7fer> So some of the "features" on balloons seem to be a bit... overstated. Take http://www.ebay.com/itm/20-ft-dia-Professional-Weather-Balloon-600g-New-/311102849358?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item486f2cc14e as an example; it appears to say that you can fly 3.8lbs (1700g) to 110k (33500m). Various burst calculators appear to beg to differ
[19:40] <edmoore> kf7fer, yes you're quite right
[19:41] <edmoore> there is a lot of fairly ropey opinion on ebay listings
[19:41] <edmoore> usually worth a few extra dollars to get a known thing from a decent person like steve
[19:41] <edmoore> (rocketboy)
[19:41] <kf7fer> didn't know about rocketboy... just looking at that since Aether has been mentioned a bit lately
[19:42] <amell> didnt someone on here get balloons with pinholes in them from ebay&
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[19:42] <edmoore> one of the pleasant things about HAB is that the physics is relatively simple and allows you to calculate stuff from scratch, so if for example if you know the balloon mass and burst diameter, you can calculate for yourself a certain-mass-to-certina-altitude pairing
[19:42] <edmoore> from first principles, rather than relying on manufacturer's advertising copy
[19:43] <edmoore> kf7fer, rocketboy is Steve Randall who is one of the UK old-hands at HAB
[19:43] <edmoore> v experienced and bullshit-free
[19:43] <edmoore> and sells balloons at basically zero profit just to make it easy for everyone to experiment
[19:43] <kf7fer> does he have a site?
[19:43] <edmoore> yes
[19:43] <edmoore> http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Welcome.html
[19:44] <edmoore> he does balloons and parachutes and similar hardware, anthony (upu) is similarly BS-free and does electronics like radio modules and gps modules
[19:44] <kf7fer> Well I know a bit about that Upu guy but thanks for the tip
[19:44] <amell> ok, so where is the BS? it has to go somewhere.
[19:44] <edmoore> 'that upu guy' :)
[19:45] <edmoore> sounds like he's a dealer on a street corner
[19:45] <amell> gps modules in plain paper bags for cash.
[19:45] <edmoore> opens up the inside of his jacket to reveal a stash of gps modules
[19:45] <edmoore> lol
[19:45] <kf7fer> heh :-)
[19:46] <LeoBodnar> psst, oi, want some good non-COCOM modules?
[19:46] <edmoore> now that *could* get you in trouble with the law!
[19:46] <amell> do they exist?
[19:47] <edmoore> yes
[19:47] <edmoore> i made one :)
[19:47] <LeoBodnar> you can sell within UK
[19:47] <edmoore> but if you're serious you can buy them if you sign an appropriate agreement
[19:47] <amell> tbh, why would anyone designing missiles use gps in any case?
[19:47] <LeoBodnar> which is probably half the world's HAB market
[19:48] <edmoore> (not from me, mine are prototypes for in-house fun and games)
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[19:48] <amell> any serious war would employ GPS jamming.
[19:48] <edmoore> sure
[19:48] <edmoore> it's all a bit vestigial
[19:48] <edmoore> but so are many laws
[19:49] <edmoore> designed for super-power battlefield conflicts
[19:49] <edmoore> rather than an angry person acting alone in a city
[19:49] <amell> i seem to recall GPS being turned off over iraq in 2003.
[19:49] <LeoBodnar> look at the export controlled list, it's full of shit that mainly appeals to highendauidophiles
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[19:50] <edmoore> it hasn;t been turned off no
[19:50] <edmoore> however they did sometimes do something called 'selective availablity', where some error was introduced to the timing of the signals broadcast on the civilian signals
[19:50] <amell> http://www.forbes.com/2003/03/25/cx_ah_0325gps.html
[19:50] <LeoBodnar> old NAVSTAR did not have beam steering
[19:51] <edmoore> however selective availability has no been used since a decree preclusing it in 2000
[19:51] <edmoore> officially anyway, however I believe it as too many people would notice if it was done nowadays
[19:52] <kf7fer> well the way 90% of Americans drive I believe they wouldn't notice
[19:52] <edmoore> :)
[19:52] <edmoore> amell, i believe that article supports what i said
[19:52] <amell> the Air Force can send false GPS-like signals over selected areas that would prompt civilian equipment to show incorrect position data. 
[19:52] <amell> yeah
[19:53] <edmoore> "So far, civilian signal accuracy has held, even after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks and the war in Afghanistan; SA has remained off during the war in Iraq. "
[19:53] <edmoore> i'm quite sure USAF reservse the option
[19:53] <amell> The military has it own highly accurate tamper-proof encrypted signal that civilian equipment cant receive.
[19:54] <LeoBodnar> military probably uses eTrexes as backups
[19:54] <edmoore> yes, the mil signal is a bit cleverer than the civilain ones
[19:54] <edmoore> though not absurdly
[19:54] <edmoore> the data signal is mixed with an extremely long pseudorandom key
[19:55] <edmoore> which makes it more-or-less undetectable unless you have that mil key
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[19:56] <myself> I heard first-person from several Desert Storm vets that they were buying commercial hikers' GPS receivers to augment what they had through official channels, and I'd assume that's only mushroomed in years since.
[19:56] <edmoore> it's not witch-craft by the standards of modern cryptography but it's basically sound, fundamentally
[19:56] <LeoBodnar> but you can corerelate P(Y) from L1 and L2 without knowing what they are?
[19:57] <edmoore> no
[19:57] <edmoore> it also has lower jitter on the clock, i believe
[19:58] <LeoBodnar> well I mean you can get ionosphere correction by correlating P(Y) data received from both L1 and L2?
[19:59] <edmoore> i guess
[19:59] <edmoore> but you can get atmospheric data with just L1 and L2 anyway
[19:59] <edmoore> inasmuch as you can calculate the electrical path length vs euclidean
[20:00] <edmoore> so as a lowly civilian like me you can get cm accuracy
[20:01] <myself> doubly so if you have a base/rover RTK setup, if you can resolve the integer ambiguity you're basically dead-nuts from there on out.
[20:01] <edmoore> singly so
[20:01] <edmoore> they're equivalent
[20:01] <edmoore> though combining L1 and L2 decouples you from any ground reference
[20:01] <edmoore> you can be a hab or a model rocket or whatever
[20:01] <edmoore> and still get the accuracy
[20:02] <myself> Oh yeah, all you're doing in either case is trying to ignore atmospheric distortions.
[20:02] <myself> single-freq RTK is cheaper than a dual-freq receiver, though, isn't it?
[20:02] <edmoore> possibly but i think that's a function of market demand
[20:03] <edmoore> there isn't a huge market for civilian dual-freq gps
[20:03] <edmoore> but in principle it should be cheap
[20:03] <edmoore> you just need a pair of front-ends
[20:03] <myself> yeah, exactly. Whereas I can blow new firmware into a pair of $8 ublox modules and link 'em with xbee radios, rtklib on the laptop and I'm home before dinner.
[20:03] <edmoore> L1 and L2 are both integer multiples of 10.23MHz
[20:04] <edmoore> sure
[20:04] <edmoore> you're quite right
[20:04] <myself> (actually I'm aiming for hoperf radios, they're cheaper, but the idea's the same)
[20:04] <edmoore> if your gps gives you raw-ish output, you're gravy
[20:04] <myself> then go resurvey all the local geocaches and "submit updated coordinates" to 7 significant figures :D
[20:04] <edmoore> my interest lies in very dynamic position solutions
[20:04] <myself> trollin' the cache maintainers..
[20:04] <edmoore> so i'm a bit more interested in on-board position decoding without needing a ground ref
[20:05] <edmoore> e.g. accurately modelling stages separating on a rocket, for example
[20:05] <myself> Especially as you might have a good chunk of atmosphere between you and the ground, too :)
[20:05] <edmoore> or parachutes deploying
[20:05] <edmoore> yes indeed
[20:05] <edmoore> good point
[20:06] <myself> though I think the troposphere isn't such a pain as the ionosphere, there's still no harm in avoiding it
[20:06] <edmoore> no indeed
[20:06] <edmoore> we did some parachute testing in the past and it was fascinating to see the response of the gps
[20:06] <myself> do you need solutions in real time for things like stage separation, or could you log raw parameters and post-process to get the dynamics after you recover the memory cards? :)
[20:07] <edmoore> we let the vehicle free-fall for a while to a moderate peed, then deployed the chute
[20:07] <edmoore> the deceleration was of the order of 100G
[20:07] <Laurenceb__> is dis some GPS
[20:07] <edmoore> the accelerometers and pitot say it all accurately enough by the GPS took many seconds to recover
[20:07] <edmoore> saw it all*
[20:07] <edmoore> however it didn;t loose lock
[20:08] Action: Laurenceb__ has been trying to work out if stm32f7 makes software gps easier
[20:08] <myself> Was the GPS set for a ihgh-dynamic environment? I know they have some black-box filters that muck with those things.
[20:08] <edmoore> it was more like a poorly tuned control loop- it over-shot then recovered
[20:08] <Laurenceb__> edmoore: i saw the same sort of thing on rogallo drop
[20:08] <edmoore> on the position
[20:08] <Laurenceb__> ~12s for the gps to get sane fix again
[20:08] <edmoore> myself, it was, but it was 100G high-dynamics
[20:08] <edmoore> it wasn;t*
[20:09] <myself> Yuuup. They do the same thing on a vehicle on a test-track, hit the skidpad and things go a little weird for a second. The GPS track goes places the vehicle clearly never went.
[20:09] <edmoore> yeah
[20:09] <myself> That's only a 1G or so, but a poorly tuned loop will still get ya.
[20:09] <edmoore> understandable but still annoying when you have niche instrumentation requirements
[20:09] <edmoore> hence my little bit of interest in making my own gps
[20:09] <myself> SDR, I assume?
[20:10] <myself> Seriously, now that there's patched firmware to enable RAW output on the cheap UBX modules, I don't feel a need for more.
[20:10] <Upu> link to that ?
[20:10] <myself> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/UbloxRAW
[20:10] <edmoore> myself, yep, SDR
[20:11] <craag> interesting
[20:11] <myself> you'll have to search for the md5 of the firmware... let me dig that up
[20:11] <edmoore> yes that stuff is built into the ublox modules
[20:11] <kf7fer> The Fox Valley guys 2nd attempt at a paper airplane had the gps on the tracker "lock up" at 50k feet during descent and the tracker continued to transmit updated telemetry (less the same GPS position) during the next 8 minutes. I believe the descent may have been a little less than optimal (it was spinning and looked to be free falling)
[20:11] <edmoore> the TIM modules offer is as standard
[20:12] <Upu> so to get it on a non timing module all you need to do is issue that command ?
[20:12] <edmoore> but given it's basically the same chipset throughout, it can be ported to other chipsets
[20:12] <Laurenceb__> ooh clever
[20:12] <Laurenceb__> i like that
[20:12] <Laurenceb__> someone dig gps fix with ubx raw on arduino
[20:12] <Laurenceb__> yah really
[20:12] <myself> I think TIM and LEA both offer it, but yeah, neither of those is $8 on ebay :P
[20:12] <Laurenceb__> *did
[20:12] <Upu> no raw output is normally just on the T models
[20:12] <edmoore> the only thing is that the data rate is not stellar
[20:13] <edmoore> given you can get 1000 position updates per second in thoery
[20:13] <edmoore> cool for accuracy, less cool for high-dynamics
[20:13] <Laurenceb__> you can get any rate in theory
[20:13] <Laurenceb__> but its limited to a fix bandwidth in the tens of Hz for most antenna
[20:13] <edmoore> well, you can unambiguously get 1kHz
[20:14] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[20:14] <Laurenceb__> so....
[20:14] <edmoore> i guess you can do better if you look at sub-chirp stuff
[20:14] <Laurenceb__> can max7 do raw then?
[20:14] <edmoore> i've never done that though
[20:14] <Upu> This isn't a custom firmware is it ? This is just how to turn on the RAW messages via UBX
[20:14] <Laurenceb__> if it can then Leo is sorted
[20:14] <myself> Upu: http://gpsforum.geospector.de/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3317#p15096
[20:14] <Laurenceb__> no more 2 hourly current spikes
[20:14] <myself> there's the firmware, linked from http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/RTKLIB
[20:15] <myself> (sorry it took me a minute to find the good link)
[20:15] <Upu> am I missing something I can't see that link
[20:15] <Laurenceb__> holy shit
[20:15] <Laurenceb__> thats a gold mine
[20:16] <Upu> no its not
[20:16] <Laurenceb__> but where is the firmware
[20:16] <Laurenceb__> grrr
[20:16] <Upu> those are just commands to turn on the RAW on a compatible reciever module
[20:16] <Upu> you can get them from uCenter
[20:16] <Upu> now if there was a firmware to enable it on the non T chips
[20:16] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[20:16] <Upu> that would be of interest to many people
[20:16] <Laurenceb__> "Supports RAW GPS or GLONASS"
[20:17] <Laurenceb__> for MAX7
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[20:18] <Laurenceb__> im confused
[20:18] <myself> It was a few weeks ago that I last played with this, and my memory is crap anyway. I'll poke at it soon and report back.
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[20:20] <Laurenceb__> MAX-7 is ROM anyway
[20:22] <edmoore> re-open mominations
[20:22] <Laurenceb__> ROM Paul
[20:23] <myself> TIM Geithner
[20:23] <edmoore> and other puns
[20:23] <Laurenceb__> that site has got to be wrong
[20:24] <Laurenceb__> theres no other answer
[20:24] <edmoore> maybe that really is the secret of weight-loss
[20:25] <Maxell> http://hackaday.com/2014/10/01/ask-hackaday-help-nasa-with-their-high-altitude-problem/
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[20:27] <craag> The consensus is that auto-piloted parafoils are illegal in the uk right?
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[20:27] <daveake> mmmm
[20:27] <edmoore> craag, nah
[20:27] <edmoore> fly it
[20:27] <edmoore> notam specifies descent under parachute
[20:27] <daveake> indeed
[20:29] <edmoore> parafoil is a parachute
[20:29] <edmoore> the whole hab caboodle is already an exemption to unmanned flight rules
[20:29] <craag> oh ok
[20:29] <edmoore> IANAL
[20:29] <LeoBodnar> fackaday is clucthcing at straws
[20:29] <edmoore> but i'm happy to fly such things
[20:30] <edmoore> hacakday?
[20:30] Action: edmoore investigates
[20:30] <LeoBodnar> it is easier to ask forgiveness than to obtain permission
[20:31] <edmoore> "There is a tendency for the system to develop a flat spin, where the payload and para foil ‘orbit’ each other at a high speed, proving to be unrecoverable."
[20:32] <edmoore> i believe this is exactly the phenomenon i described in an email to the list recently
[20:32] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[20:32] <edmoore> about parachute dynamics at high altitudes
[20:32] <Laurenceb__> what about SiRF IV
[20:32] Action: Laurenceb__ grabs datasheet
[20:32] <edmoore> "The para foil will not inflate because of the low air density."
[20:32] <edmoore> confused BS
[20:32] <Upu> ok that mildy interesting
[20:32] <edmoore> "The lines get tangled easily." neither here nor there
[20:32] <Upu> b5 62 09 01 10 00 dc 0f 00 00 00 00 00 00 23 cc 21 00 00 00 02 10 27 0e
[20:32] <Upu> 09 01 isn't documented
[20:33] <Upu> B5 62 06 01 08 00 02 10 01 01 01 01 01 00 26 37
[20:33] <Upu> thats the official command to turn RXM-RAW on
[20:33] <Upu> there is no UBX with a CLS of 0x09
[20:34] <Upu> file:///C:/Users/Anthony/Dropbox/Public/PDFS/u-blox6_ReceiverDescriptionProtocolSpec_%2528GPS.G6-SW-10018%2529.pdf page 88
[20:34] <Upu> no
[20:34] <lz1dev> lol
[20:34] <LeoBodnar> what does RAW provide? frontend samples?
[20:34] <Upu> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/PDFS/u-blox6_ReceiverDescriptionProtocolSpec_%2528GPS.G6-SW-10018%2529.pdf
[20:34] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar: tracking info
[20:35] <LeoBodnar> cd c:/
[20:35] <LeoBodnar> dir
[20:35] <Laurenceb__> someone implimented a GPS on arduino with it
[20:35] <Upu> :)
[20:35] <Laurenceb__> lol
[20:35] <edmoore> it gives you pseudoranges
[20:35] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[20:35] <myself> If you simplify GPS to two stages: Measuring satellites, and then figuring out where you are, RAW is in between those steps.
[20:36] <Laurenceb__> the fact it can be done on tarduino means it can tbe too hard to use :D
[20:36] <edmoore> which is exactly where my talk at the ukhas conf got to
[20:36] <myself> So by taking raw data from a couple of receivers, you can figure out where *all of them* are, using each other's data for a better solution, more or less.
[20:36] <edmoore> extracting psueodoranges
[20:36] <myself> (Especially if you know where one of them is, which is the base/rover concept used in RTK)
[20:37] Action: Laurenceb__ is looking to see if SIRF does raw mode
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> that's better than perfect
[20:37] <edmoore> yes
[20:37] <edmoore> it's the annoying bit done
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> and shut the damn thing with a mosfet so that it is guaranteed dead
[20:37] <edmoore> however as i mentioned earlier the pseudoranges are not that frequent
[20:38] <edmoore> which is why i didn't go down that route for the high-dynamics stuff
[20:38] <Laurenceb__> muhahaha
[20:38] <Laurenceb__> SiRF IV does pseudorange
[20:38] <Laurenceb__> it might be locked down on some firmware builds
[20:38] <Laurenceb__> im not sure what this means in practice...
[20:38] <LeoBodnar> in my world high dynamics is measured in minutes
[20:38] <edmoore> this shouldn't be news
[20:38] <LeoBodnar> and anything >1m/s
[20:39] <edmoore> mike castle (remember him?) who worked for sirf was advertising this stuff back in 2007/8 on this channel
[20:39] <Laurenceb__> also uses 1ma less than ublox7
[20:39] <Laurenceb__> yeah we met up a few time irl
[20:39] <edmoore> meatspace
[20:39] <Laurenceb__> hmmm
[20:39] <Laurenceb__> gps == solved?
[20:39] <Laurenceb__> got Leo at least
[20:39] <Laurenceb__> *for
[20:39] <edmoore> gps has been solved for ages?
[20:40] <edmoore> btw still subject to cocom
[20:40] <LeoBodnar> it's cocom's problem
[20:40] <edmoore> at least on any implementation of 'raw' know about
[20:40] <myself> also for what it's worth, the navspark has a raw firmware, and it weighs very little :) I'm not sure if the raw firmware can work on the cheaper ns boards, but someone must've done it by now..
[20:40] <Laurenceb__> ublox seems to come out of sleep and start refreshing all the almanac every 2 hours or so
[20:41] <myself> if raw is happening before the receiver has computed its altitude and speed, how can it determine cocom compliance?
[20:41] <edmoore> it's not
[20:41] <edmoore> is the answer
[20:41] <Laurenceb__> it might not be
[20:41] <Laurenceb__> yeah
[20:41] <edmoore> it gives you the sattelite a given psuedorange is coming from
[20:41] <Laurenceb__> it which case sirf might start updating itself too
[20:41] <edmoore> so it's decoding everything still
[20:41] <LeoBodnar> if you tracker spits out altitude and speed and you are selling it abroad than it's subject to export licence
[20:42] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[20:42] <edmoore> it's just another protocol option to spit out some additional data
[20:42] <Laurenceb__> but you can load data onto it
[20:42] <Laurenceb__> maybe max7 can be spoofed like that
[20:42] <LeoBodnar> unrestructed speed AND altitude
[20:42] <edmoore> in theory but not practuice
[20:42] <edmoore> atleast not on the ublox 6s
[20:43] <edmoore> i'm quite sure the internal engine is the same
[20:43] <edmoore> raw just allows api access to some already-present interla datastructure
[20:43] <edmoore> nothing fundamentally different
[20:43] <Laurenceb__> message IC28 in sirf binary
[20:43] <edmoore> comapred to normal mode
[20:43] <Laurenceb__> *ID
[20:44] <Ian_> . . . and how does ITAR and COCOM stack up when all the semiconductor fabs end up in China?
[20:45] <LeoBodnar> it's no different to any RTL dongle
[20:45] <edmoore> Ian_, they already are
[20:45] <edmoore> moot point
[20:45] <edmoore> laws are to do with selling not fabrication
[20:45] <Ian_> That's about what I thought.
[20:45] <myself> So if they sell a cocom-compliant version, but you go to whatever.cn and download the other firmware...
[20:46] <edmoore> assuming it exists
[20:46] <edmoore> sure
[20:46] <Laurenceb__> not so many fabs are in china
[20:46] <Laurenceb__> its mostly encapsulation and pcb / final assembly over there
[20:46] <edmoore> but firmware and fabs are sort of different
[20:46] <edmoore> 99% of them use an asic that is an arm core and a hardware correlator
[20:46] <edmoore> the arm core runs the firmware
[20:46] <myself> point being, all the production is outside the US anyway
[20:47] <edmoore> it doesn't really need to make it to china
[20:47] <edmoore> can just be flashed at the warehouse
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[21:16] <Laurenceb__> http://michelebavaro.blogspot.co.uk/2011/08/is-sirf-really-bringing-back-carrier.html
[21:17] <craag> starting googling around on parafoils - found your ukhas.org article from 2009 Laurenceb__
[21:17] <Laurenceb__> hah
[21:18] <Laurenceb__> yeah i flew that thing in the end
[21:18] <Laurenceb__> but it was "undone" by a knot
[21:18] <craag> ah I remember that
[21:19] <edmoore> so here's my DL on parafoils
[21:19] <edmoore> infact i've had a boozy dinner so cba to DL
[21:19] <edmoore> but basically the control law is strongly a function of air density
[21:19] <edmoore> see my email to the list
[21:19] <Laurenceb__> shrug... use rogallos
[21:20] <Laurenceb__> but thats even more naughty
[21:20] <edmoore> and as a result prachutes are v slippy customers at high alts
[21:20] Action: Laurenceb__ is happy
[21:20] <edmoore> Laurenceb, rogallos are hard to deploy
[21:20] <Laurenceb__> Wickes stock 6061 anodized alu stock
[21:20] <Laurenceb__> true
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[21:22] <Laurenceb__> £4 for a 1m 16mm tube
[21:22] <Laurenceb__> it seems to be tempered too
[21:23] <kf7fer> craag: How about one of these? http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__14284__hobbyking_paraglider_parafoil_2_15m.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjwzK6hBRCbzLz_r_f-3tkBEiQA-zyWsCm1dS8EEJ0k3EHy9s_G6-mEvzA1KTf7oa1Wbd-pIaIaAl0z8P8HAQ
[21:23] <craag> I can see the spinning/orbiting thing being a real nightmare
[21:24] <SpeedEvil> http://www.orbitalfasteners.co.uk/en/search/q/aluminium_tube_16mm/sq/aluminium_tube would be a lot more awesome if their site diddn't suck donkey balls
[21:25] <Laurenceb__> yeah the rogallo was really stable, i was suprised
[21:26] <Laurenceb__> you can find nice stuff online, but most diy stores only stock nasty extruded junk
[21:26] <craag> kf7fer: Yeah there's a load of parafoil wings - the hard bit will be controlling it - and building it to be able to be controlled
[21:26] <Laurenceb__> they have their own brand timber sections too, cheaper and better quality than richard burbidge
[21:27] <kf7fer> I would think deployment could be difficult as well.
[21:27] <Laurenceb__> i hate how richard burbidge is all you ever seem to find in diy stores
[21:28] <craag> kf7fer: I was thinking the easiest thing might be to pre-deploy and pre-shape with some stiff wire or similar
[21:28] <craag> cutaway the balloon
[21:29] Action: SpeedEvil is about to order a pallet of plywood.
[21:29] <craag> and hope you hold stable enough in freefall
[21:29] <SpeedEvil> I did the numbers, and I'd need about a 30m balloon to make it float - with hydrogen.
[21:30] <Laurenceb__> erm there is a simpler way
[21:30] <Laurenceb__> just launch it assembled
[21:30] <Laurenceb__> and stick the cutdown on the top
[21:30] <Laurenceb__> thats how i did it
[21:30] <Laurenceb__> the problem is that turbulence shakes it violently during ascent
[21:30] <Laurenceb__> that undid some of the knots on mine
[21:31] <craag> Laurenceb__: I think that's what I mean
[21:31] <craag> did you recover?
[21:31] <Laurenceb__> yes
[21:31] <Laurenceb__> it was in a tree lol
[21:31] <Laurenceb__> most of the way down it was in a ~400m radius circle
[21:32] <Laurenceb__> L/D was 3.8 or something... it was a while ago now
[21:33] <Laurenceb__> 45km/h horizontal velocity
[21:33] <Laurenceb__> about 10kg/m^2 wing loading
[21:36] <Laurenceb__> the tree probably saved it from obliterating itself
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[22:15] <amell> daveake: did you test range on LoRa when changing between 20k8 and 125k bandwidth? any obvious difference?
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[22:16] <daveake> I've not flown 125k
[22:16] <daveake> Not allowed on 434
[22:16] <daveake> (I think)
[22:16] <amell> this is for ground location of rockets. im finding rate too slow at 20k8
[22:17] <daveake> use 868 then
[22:17] <craag> Could do 250khz on 868
[22:17] <daveake> iirc the duty cycle is per 1 hour
[22:17] <amell> the module i have is 434
[22:17] <amell> or are they really multi freq?
[22:18] <daveake> you can set 868 on it but I assume the circuitry around the chip is designed for 434
[22:19] <amell> This is an upumodule
[22:19] <daveake> It's just the Hope(less)RF module
[22:20] <daveake> They come in 434 and 868 variants so one might assume there is actually a difference
[22:20] <amell> ok so this is restricted to 434 apparently - any idea what the max bandwidth on 434 works out at.
[22:20] <daveake> approx 1400 baud equiv
[22:21] <amell> so 250khz apparently has a receive bandwidth of 586bps
[22:22] <daveake> erm?
[22:22] <amell> why do you think 250khz is not alllowed on 434?
[22:23] <daveake> 250kHz can get you a whole lot more than 486bps
[22:23] <daveake> 5
[22:23] <daveake> because it's a channelised band
[22:23] <daveake> 25kHz channels
[22:23] <amell> page 28 of the datasheet states nominal Rb (bps) is 586bps.
[22:24] <daveake> "nominal" eh?
[22:24] <daveake> You can get lots more
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[22:26] <daveake> Should be about 16kbps max
[22:26] <amell> oh, now i understand, use spreading factor to increase.
[22:26] <daveake> exactly
[22:26] <daveake> You've got that, plus the FEC setting
[22:27] <amell> ideally im looking for a position report every 3-4 seconds.
[22:27] <daveake> with all wond up "to the max" it's approx 1400baud equiv at 20.8k. 250k is 250/20.8 faster
[22:27] <daveake> Well you can get that inside 20.8k b/w
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[22:28] <amell> doesnt work, i get lots of nonsense with valid crc if i transmit that fast.
[22:29] <daveake> you're doing something wrong then
[22:29] <amell> wonder what&
[22:29] <daveake> I can guess
[22:29] <daveake> There's a bit in the manual about the "special" fast mode
[22:30] <amell> oh i saw that. didnt think it applied. will read it again
[22:30] <nats`> fast mode = minimum spread + no preamble
[22:31] <daveake> you mean no header?
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[22:31] <nats`> header yes sorry
[22:31] <amell> yeah, spreading factor = 6 on page 27.
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[22:45] <amell> well, i tried 500k temporarily, and looked on my SDR - wow. completely wipes out a big chunk of spectrum& changing it back.
[22:49] <daveake> At 500 you have to find a band that's >=500k wide :/
[22:49] <nats`> on 868 there is one that fit
[22:49] <amell> its very antisocial on 434&
[22:51] <amell> anyway, my application worked perfectly at 500k, so now i know the bandwidth is the issue. just need to twiddle the factors.
[22:51] <mikestir> amell: can you compress the position? you already have a rough idea of where it is given that a rocket isn't going to go that far
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[22:52] <amell> thats an idea,
[22:53] <mikestir> I mean even without compression 32 bits for lat/long is surely enough. does it really take that long to send 8 bytes?
[22:54] <amell> altitude too
[22:54] <mikestir> ok 10 bytes
[22:54] <amell> i have a few things to drop so will do that
[22:54] <amell> its 60 bytes at the moment
[22:54] <mikestir> is it ascii?
[22:54] <amell> yep
[22:55] <mikestir> well if you send it in binary that's going to be a big saving for starters
[22:55] <amell> just your usual hab rtty string
[22:56] <mikestir> for lora you already have a protected packet, and you're not constrained to 7 bits, so just send lat/long/alt in binary with fixed word length and no delimiters
[22:57] <nats`> if you know your area you could even send only part of long lat
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[23:05] <amell> yep. its working a treat
[23:05] <amell> all i need to do now is add the code to log flight path to SD card.
[23:10] <mikestir> are you working in C?
[23:10] <amell> well& Processing :)
[23:11] <amell> i.e. bastard C
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[23:11] <mikestir> just have your data in a struct for transmission and write the same thing contiguously to the SD card
[23:12] <mikestir> I guess you'd want a timestamp on the sd card as well
[23:12] <amell> yep
[23:13] <mikestir> same idea though. you probably want to store time as relative to some epoch
[23:13] <mikestir> probably in milliseconds rather than seconds
[23:13] <mikestir> mind you no point in storing more time resolution than your gps update rate
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[23:28] Nick change: davo_ -> davo
[23:28] <amell> ok. all working and done. range tests tomorrow with the dog. will tie tracker to his collar :)
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[00:00] --- Thu Oct 2 2014