highaltitude.log.20140922

[00:03] <mheld> ugh, I can't get a GPS fix
[00:03] <mheld> this sucks
[00:07] <mheld> is there a reason to use GPGLL over GPRMC?
[00:08] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03OK1MJO_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=OK1MJO_chase
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[01:17] <zzqa> kf7fer: have you seen this guy yet? http://www.radioddity.com/us/avrt5-aprs-tracker-vhf-with-gps-bluetooth-thermometer-tf-card-support-aprsdroid.html if that module isn't an sa818 it sure looks similar
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[02:07] <terman_> Tracking VK3YT via WSPRs now @ QH21 in North Queensland :-)
[02:12] <terman_> 2014-09-22 01:54 utc VK3YT 10.140200MHz -21S/N 0Drift QH21 0.01W VK4ZBV QG62ml 1297km 142deg.
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[02:46] <terman_> 01:54 VK3YT heading for the NQ coast near Hinchinbrook Island, between Townsville and Cairns.
[03:01] <terman_> 02:42 UTC VK3YT @ QH22 moved 100km north in last hour tracking towards the North above Cairns
[03:03] Nick change: loceur_ -> loceur
[03:21] <terman_> VK3YT Latest Report crossed NQ coast 2014-09-22 03:12 VK3YT 10.140200 -23 0 QH32 0.01 VK4ZBV QG62ml 1275 152 heading SE
[03:22] <kf7fer> zzqa: Yeah, I saw that. I was going to buy one but I figured I'd rather try and make my own first
[03:23] <terman_> Tracker well behind WSPR Reported track ?
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[04:59] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03hb-01_chase after 037 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=hb-01_chase
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[06:14] <Rebounder>
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[08:31] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VK3YT after 0315 hours silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=VK3YT
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[08:40] <fsphil> cool
[08:40] <fsphil> HF working well
[08:41] <fsphil> nice part of the world that
[08:45] <Maxell> JT65? lol it goed qrp?
[08:45] <Maxell> goes qrp
[08:45] <fsphil> yea just a few mw iirc
[08:46] <Maxell> Would be the best mode on the best band
[08:46] <Maxell> 30 meters is a nice mix between 40 and 20 (as you'd expect)
[08:46] <fsphil> not sure where the receiver station is
[08:46] <Maxell> nvis at day, dx at night
[08:46] <fsphil> if it's melbourne it's doing well
[08:47] <Maxell> Yeah qrz.com says near Melbourne
[08:48] <Maxell> http://aprs.fi/#!call=a%2FVK3YT-1
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[09:06] <mrShrimp> So, SP1 was not very successful. Someone who has the ability to take it off the tracker can do so.
[09:11] <mrShrimp> Something happened in the payload causing it to lose its fix in the time between our pre-launch check and our letting go of the balloon, and we lost the carrier signal pretty soon afterwards.
[09:11] <mrShrimp> We learned a lot though.
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[09:18] <daveake> That's good, though it's an expensive way to learn
[09:20] <mrShrimp> true
[09:20] <daveake> Lost carrier is unusual. NTX2?
[09:20] <mrShrimp> yeah
[09:21] <daveake> Well, those are very simple and reliable. Could be lost power, or enable line not tied up.
[09:21] <mrShrimp> It was becoming weaker while we were trying to follow it in the car, and we made the decision to drive to the expected landing site in hopes of finding the signal again, and maybe getting a visual.
[09:22] <daveake> So the carrier didn't stop quickly, it got weaker?
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[09:23] <mrShrimp> Yes, but it might have stopped at some point. We stopped tracking it after a while to conserve laptop battery, and never found it again.
[09:24] <mrShrimp> We were receiving with an ezcap dongle, preamp filter, and a yagi.
[09:25] <daveake> I don't use those dongles but that should have been good enough, so I'd suspect your transmitting antenna
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[09:29] <mrShrimp> It was a 1/4 wave ground plane, with supports for the radiator and radials. I didn't have access to a tuner when I was cutting it to size, and the radials were at 90 degrees instead of 45 degrees, so those factors might have degraded the signal clarity.
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[09:34] <eroomde> not really
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[09:35] <eroomde> the angle of your radials is squabbling over a couple of dB
[09:35] <fsphil> I've had all sorts of freaky radial shapes and lengths, they all work fine
[09:35] <fsphil> what you describe sounds like a faulty or missing antenna
[09:36] <fsphil> lose connector or broken wire perhaps
[09:36] <mrShrimp> It's possible the antenna wire wasn't secured properly.
[09:36] <eroomde> i've come late to the conversation - how far away was the payload when you stopped being able to hear it?
[09:37] <mfa298> agreed, that sounds like a bad antenna connection somewhere. I've received payloads at a reasonable distance with an rtl dongle and pretty basic antenna (the real radios and FCD do better though)
[09:37] <mrShrimp> We were only getting the carrier, so we don't know exactly how high up it was. We stopped listening about 30 minutes after launch.
[09:37] <mrShrimp> in the hopes of picking it up at the predicted landing site
[09:37] <eroomde> only carrier - ouch!
[09:38] <mrShrimp> yeah, haha
[09:38] <eroomde> that said don't give up then
[09:38] <eroomde> we've been able to recover payloads just with direction finding
[09:38] <eroomde> used to do it intentionally every now and then to stay sharp
[09:38] <fsphil> did you have contact details on the box?
[09:39] <mrShrimp> Yes, and there's a high probability that someone will spot it on their farm. We put shiny tape on it.
[09:40] <mrShrimp> It's all farmland where we launched. We didn't laminate the contact details, which in hindsight was a bad idea (irrigation systems), but we put a picture of them on the camera.
[09:41] <fsphil> you really must get a car laptop psu
[09:41] <fsphil> or an inverter
[09:42] <fsphil> essential component for chasing
[09:42] <mrShrimp> Well, we had an inverter, but it broke :P
[09:42] <fsphil> d'oh!
[09:42] <fsphil> one of those days eh
[09:42] <mrShrimp> 300W, my laptop PSU draws 200W
[09:42] <daveake> Everything breaks on a chase, eventually
[09:42] <mrShrimp> probably wasn't enough of a buffer
[09:42] <daveake> Backups need backups
[09:42] <eroomde> get a decent inverter
[09:43] <eroomde> if it doesn't weigh a lot it's junk
[09:43] <fsphil> I've been meaning to get a little pure sine inverter
[09:43] <eroomde> especially the things that are barely bigger than a plug
[09:43] <eroomde> irresponsibly bad garbage
[09:44] <mrShrimp> Ours was pretty hefty. Someone else who helped us offered to have us use his 400W inverter, but that broke too...
[09:44] <gonzo__> I brought a big fat inverter as an experiment to make a 12V comporessof fridge. But the DC currents of these things start to get frightening
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[09:44] <gonzo__> I had to wire mine for the car's winch power connector
[09:44] <eroomde> some of them have no input filtering either
[09:45] <eroomde> the spec on car 12V lines gives one pause
[09:45] <eroomde> -40V on the 12V rail is quite normal
[09:45] <eroomde> especially during starting
[09:46] <mrShrimp> What was strange was that the inverter seemed to break after we plugged it in the interior socket and tried to charge the laptop, but when we clipped it directly onto the battery, there was no problem.
[09:47] <eroomde> those 12V sockets can't do much current
[09:47] <eroomde> sure you weren't dipping beneathe the cutoff voltage?
[09:47] <eroomde> do/did they re-work when plugged directly into the battery?
[09:47] <fsphil> hate those plugs
[09:47] <fsphil> nasty things
[09:48] <eroomde> yes
[09:48] <eroomde> a nice car mod is to put a decent anderson-connector 12V feed into the cabin somewhere
[09:48] <eroomde> like the passenger footwell
[09:48] <daveake> Yes the car lighter sockets are awful, and really not up to this sort of use
[09:49] <eroomde> you can get an old defender and go mad
[09:49] <eroomde> where you don't mind drilling holes everywhere
[09:49] <eroomde> front and back winches - a must for hab
[09:49] <eroomde> snorkels - a must for hab
[09:50] <daveake> damn I thought I was done :p
[09:50] <eroomde> armoured engine pans, ditto
[09:50] <eroomde> az/el on the roof
[09:50] <fsphil> high power floodlights
[09:51] <eroomde> that actually is super useful
[09:51] <fsphil> my car is not radio friendly, too little space to hide wiring and things
[09:51] <daveake> Also I can recommend one of these https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/368443/P1090801.JPG
[09:51] <fsphil> like the idea of getting a big truck for it :)
[09:51] <mrShrimp> eroomde: They did not work after being plugged into the 12V socket. They whined for a bit, and charged the laptop intermittently, as if it was a charge pump.
[09:51] <craag_philcrump> I bought a 300W inverter cheap at a rally the other week - won't start up into anything more than a 80W smpsu :(
[09:51] <daveake> and one of these https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/368443/P1090806.JPG
[09:52] <chimpusmaximus> We had one on ours and it filled the car...
[09:52] <eroomde> that wasn't my question mrShrimp
[09:52] <fsphil> the rope or the person daveake?
[09:52] <daveake> yes and yes
[09:52] <fsphil> nice
[09:52] <eroomde> it was did they work again when you tried them directly from the battery
[09:52] <eroomde> having thried them from the cigarette lighter socket
[09:53] <fsphil> my old inverter was a belkin. to be honest I should have seen the problems coming before I opened the box
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[09:53] <eroomde> i do keep rope, a bush knife and a saw in my car
[09:53] <eroomde> sure it'll upset a policeman one day
[09:54] <fsphil> "It's OK, I'm a scientist"
[09:54] <eroomde> yes
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[09:54] <mfa298> I think the lighter socket on my car is fused at 15A, but it was pretty warm when I used it to run a radio drawing 2A on receive once so I'm not sure I'd want to use it for 15A longterm (that could have been the plug rather then the socket though)
[09:54] <daveake> I'm sure you could talk your way out of having the knife, rope, ladder, telescopic pole etc
[09:55] <daveake> Just don't take a baseball bat too
[09:55] <fsphil> telescopic baseball bat
[09:56] <mrShrimp> We first tried the 400W one directly from the battery, which worked. We then tried to plug it into the cigarette lighter socket, and it charged the laptop intermittently. After that, it did not work directly from the battery again.
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[09:56] <fsphil> that's how my belkin went too
[09:57] <fsphil> I opened it up and there's an alarming lack of big components in it
[09:57] <fsphil> I was expecting some big inductors and capacitors
[09:57] <daveake> fsphil Belkin and Linksys .. anything else you feel inclined to admit buying
[09:57] <daveake> ?
[09:57] <chimpusmaximus> Theone we used would only work when the car was running.
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[09:58] <fsphil> daveake: nope that's about it. I think
[09:58] <daveake> :)
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[09:59] <fsphil> I found a box with some PIC parts though
[10:00] <daveake> If you say "PICAXE tracker with an RFM22B", I may have to /ignore you :p
[10:00] <fsphil> SSDV on PICAXE... hmmmm
[10:01] <fsphil> found an old rfm22b based tracker too
[10:01] <fsphil> will have to give it an honourable disposal (under a foil balloon)
[10:03] <mrShrimp> eroomde: By cutoff voltage, did you mean that of the inverter?
[10:03] <eroomde> yep
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[10:11] <chimpusmaximus> Does any one have any info etc of any one who has done any evening launches to either capture sun setting or light pollution etc
[10:12] <daveake> info such as?
[10:12] <eroomde> yes
[10:12] <eroomde> i know quite a lot about someone who's done that
[10:12] <eroomde> what he's thinking about right now, for instance
[10:12] <daveake> how many coffees he's had today?
[10:12] <eroomde> 2
[10:12] <eroomde> 3rd on the go
[10:13] <eroomde> ulcer here we come
[10:13] <eroomde> chimpusmaximus, to be more helpful, i have done a number of sunset and dawn launches
[10:13] <mfa298> Having joined up with someone that did a night launch one warning would be watch out for cows in the field
[10:13] <chimpusmaximus> i guess i'm thinking about camera gear etc
[10:13] <mrShrimp> We didn't think to measure the voltage range, which would be a good thing to do before the next launch. This is the model we used: http://www.vetco.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8880, and it looks like it should have been able to handle most fluctuations in the battery voltage. We didn't have the engine on when we plugged it in, so it might have escaped the -40V.
[10:14] <daveake> mfa298, lol
[10:14] <eroomde> chimpusmaximus, for the most part, a compact isn't too bad
[10:14] <chimpusmaximus> I was thinking down the route of a pi noir camera but would like to possibly consider a ixus or something light weight for better quaility
[10:15] <eroomde> yes
[10:15] <eroomde> i'd get a decent actual camera
[10:15] <chimpusmaximus> eroomde: do you have any photos etc to see whats possible?
[10:15] <eroomde> sure
[10:15] <eroomde> one sec
[10:15] <eroomde> http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/
[10:16] <eroomde> we took that one at the top just after dawn
[10:16] <eroomde> i'll find you that whole gallery so you can see in the lead-upo to dawn
[10:16] <eroomde> https://www.flickr.com/photos/cuspaceflight/sets/72157621752577188/
[10:16] <chimpusmaximus> i have to admit i never took much notice of the pic.. it never dawned on me.
[10:17] <jonsowman> pun intended ;)
[10:17] <chimpusmaximus> Thanks
[10:17] <fsphil> the pi camera isn't very good at night
[10:17] <fsphil> it'll show streetlights, just about
[10:18] <eroomde> yes we got some street lights on that one
[10:18] <eroomde> i'll see if i can find a vid
[10:18] <fsphil> if the payload was stable you could probably do some great night time pics of the ground
[10:19] <eroomde> yes
[10:19] <eroomde> i agree
[10:19] <eroomde> all the balloon-lofted telescope stuff
[10:19] <eroomde> or a panorama of the northern lights
[10:19] <eroomde> that'd be sexytime
[10:19] <daveake> yup
[10:19] <fsphil> I'd like to image that night time glow of the upper atmosphere you see on long exposure ISS photos
[10:20] <eroomde> chimpusmaximus, if you have some budget, or faith in your recovery, you'll get really nice results from a modern semi-pro compact
[10:20] <eroomde> they have really good low ISO performance
[10:20] <fsphil> being cold will be a bonus too
[10:20] <eroomde> things like the fuji x100s though that has a fixed lens
[10:20] <eroomde> but there are lots of things in that style
[10:21] <eroomde> being cold in theory helps with the ccds but the lack of convection at high alts usually makes it worse
[10:21] <fsphil> ah yes, it'll just heat up
[10:21] <fsphil> annoying that
[10:21] <eroomde> http://vimeo.com/1639869
[10:22] <eroomde> there was def a video of cambridge city lights after launch somewhere
[10:22] <chimpusmaximus> Got a few to chose from but weight was putting me off at moment. Have been thinking of using a sony rx100
[10:22] <fsphil> should really video on a flight sometime
[10:22] <eroomde> you can see some light in this one http://vimeo.com/1639734
[10:22] <fsphil> the BBC one had gopros but it didn't go very high
[10:23] <eroomde> that sounds like a good choice chimpusmaximus
[10:23] <chimpusmaximus> i was tempted along the canon route as ou could change firmware etc but found the sony had limited control though usb cable
[10:24] <chimpusmaximus> I think a 5dmkiii will be a bit heavy and not sure i would want to risk loss.
[10:24] <eroomde> http://vimeo.com/1626665
[10:24] <eroomde> burst!
[10:24] <eroomde> there were all powershot a560s iirc
[10:24] <eroomde> or a540
[10:25] <eroomde> things have moved on since then
[10:25] <fsphil> what's with the sound on that last video
[10:25] <fsphil> sounds like an engine slowing down
[10:25] <eroomde> chimpusmaximus, yeah, my thoughts too, hence wanting something with similar image quality but much lower weight
[10:25] <eroomde> i'd like to fly a leica
[10:28] <chimpusmaximus> I think i'll plan around the sony. Have a rx100 mk1 and access to a mk3.. Have to convince then its a worth while adventure
[10:30] <eroomde> good luck
[10:31] <chimpusmaximus> cheers
[10:34] <eroomde> does chrome fetch things twice when you reload?
[10:36] <eroomde> i've written a little webserver for a cortex that displays the number of times it's received a get
[10:36] <eroomde> and that keeps going up by 2 every time i reload
[10:36] <eroomde> it could be my code of course
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: wget?
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[10:38] <eroomde> good thought SpeedEvil
[10:40] <eroomde> yep
[10:40] <eroomde> chrome loads it twice
[10:40] <eroomde> wget only increments in by 1
[10:40] <eroomde> interesting
[10:41] <fsphil> does it check for GET? chrome could be sending HEAD first
[10:41] <chimpusmaximus> Not my area but its not something like chrome preloading the page in background?
[10:41] <craag_philcrump> eroomde: Is one for the favicon?
[10:42] <eroomde> should just be the number of gets, as i've coded iut
[10:43] <eroomde> firefox reloads a single time
[10:43] <eroomde> just chrome being weird, so far
[10:46] <eroomde> oh well
[10:46] <eroomde> it's not lunch yet
[10:47] <eroomde> bad mood
[10:48] <mfa298> favicon could be a good guess - a lot of browsers will try and grab that (especially if they don't have it already)
[10:49] <fsphil> relic of the 90s
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[10:49] <mfa298> get's used more now though (I'm pretty sure that's what FF uses to put icons on tabs)
[10:50] <mfa298> ping cm13g09
[10:50] <fsphil> it might need one specified from the html page rather than just probing for favicon.ico
[10:51] <fsphil> IE will try loading it too
[10:52] <craag_philcrump> chrome aggresively probes for the favicon
[10:52] <fsphil> looks like it's optional in firefox, and disabled by default
[10:52] <eroomde> don't we all
[10:53] <fsphil> chrome and IE both try loading it automatically
[10:57] <SpacenearUS> New position from 03VK3YT_ after 03a day silence - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=VK3YT_
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[11:54] <MaXimaN> Hurrah! Antenna now on the chimney
[11:58] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:59] <eroomde> let's hope it doesn't let the magic smoke out
[11:59] <MaXimaN> I hear lightning powers up your sdr
[12:00] <eroomde> it does, rather briefly
[12:00] <eroomde> put an arrestor inline?
[12:02] <mfa298> unless you're called Marty McFly
[12:02] <eroomde> it's so chilli in the electronics lab today, autumn is here
[12:02] <eroomde> having to wear workshop overalls
[12:03] <SpeedEvil> Winter is coming.
[12:07] <eroomde> you can tell i was brought up in a house with an aga - i leave soldering irons on the whole time
[12:26] <SpeedEvil> :)
[12:29] <daveake> Wise. I've discovered that the time it takes for an iron to cool to below solder melting point is approx equal to the time it takes to notice the joint that I missed
[12:30] <eroomde> i'm going to get me a nice soldering iron soon with sleep in the holder
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> It would be nice to have one that has a nice seal around the iron, and puffs a puff of CO2 in it to make it non-oxidising atmosphere
[12:34] <eroomde> the iron i want has sufficient fast thermal response that it can go from 180-idle to 350-hot in about the second it takes from pulling out of the stand and taking to the workpiece
[12:39] <gonzo__> but wearing the lead apron to use it is a bit inconvenient
[12:40] <eroomde> :)
[12:40] <eroomde> it's a JBC iron
[12:40] <gonzo__> gamma reflow
[12:41] <eroomde> i've seen loads of people rave about them, and then saw someone do some smd work then take the iron and solder a copper coin to a sheet of copper-glad fr4 just-like-that
[12:41] <eroomde> same iron same tip
[12:41] <eroomde> i was really very impressed with its thermal response
[12:41] <eroomde> they just made a beautiful solder fillet around the perimeter of the coin
[12:41] <gonzo__> lthey look very expensive
[12:42] <gonzo__> the prob I find is that the tiny smd tips are too fine to have enough mass to even be of use for smd
[12:43] <gonzo__> I use a 5mm chissel tip for smd, just the corner of it, buit it seems to work well
[12:53] <MaXimaN> Any recommendations on an arrester?
[12:53] <MaXimaN> I have the feedline coming from the chimney, into the attic and then into the man-cave on the first floor
[12:55] <mfa298> MaXimaN: most ham stores should have a selection of lightening arrestors and the other required parts (Ground Rod, Decent earth cable)
[12:55] <MaXimaN> Inserting the ground rod is going to be a problem
[12:56] <mfa298> you might get away with just unplugging the antenna in a storm - Similar to what you might do with the TV (assuming terestial)
[12:57] <eroomde> we have thousands of lightning conductors round here
[12:57] <MaXimaN> It's an X-50N and where it is mounted it is not much higher than the chimney
[12:58] <MaXimaN> However there are few TV antennas nearby, so it is currently probably the path of least resistance
[13:00] <gonzo__> if the antenna is DC short, then there vshopuld be no risk of static build up.
[13:00] <gonzo__> if it's a direct strike, then say good bye to all your kit in the huse anyway
[13:01] <gonzo__> and lighning arrestors are usually just spark gaps. And the voltage req to get it to flash over, in the event of a near by strike, is prob enougbh to kill your radio
[13:02] <gonzo__> so basicaly, just don't worry about it
[13:02] <MaXimaN> Heh
[13:02] <MaXimaN> "Basically, you're fucked"
[13:02] <gonzo__> direct, yes
[13:02] <gonzo__> near, expect to have some repairs to do
[13:03] <MaXimaN> Would connecting the arrestor indoors to mains ground at least resolve static build-up?
[13:03] <gonzo__> nope, it would have to be big to geta spark.
[13:04] <gonzo__> you could pit a few K resistor from the coax centre to ground somewhere
[13:04] <gonzo__> but with all coax connectors, it's difficult to fiond somewhere convenient to do that
[13:04] <gonzo__> I have done that inside ant junction boxs, where I have buiolt my own yagi
[13:05] <MaXimaN> So I've seen lot sof examples like this: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/115333-Advice-on-lightning-protection-for-a-VHF-UHF-base-antenna-installation
[13:06] <MaXimaN> But that kind of setup for a single antenna would eb pretty challenging for me. The nearest place I could put a ground rod is aay from the house and foundations
[13:10] <MaXimaN> So disconnecting it in a storm is probably the best thing to do for now :)
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[13:16] <gonzo__> googling suggests that the X50 is DC grounded. So to stop static build up, just tie the outer of the coax to ground. And your mains earth is probably good enough (and a safer option for various reasons)
[13:17] <gonzo__> if you connect it via an inductor, eg a few turns around a ferrite EMC clip over, near the connection to the coax, you can avoid getting any noise in that way (unlikly, but could happen.)
[13:18] <gonzo__> but even a big earthing box like the one shown on that link, would probably be blown off the wall in the event of a direct strike
[13:19] <gonzo__> disconnecting the ant from your radio would prob not help, aslightening will have no prob jumping a few feet
[13:19] <myself> gonzo__: lightning ground should have as little inductance in the path as possible; a strike is a fast-rise-time pulse and it'll see high-L as a brick wall.
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[13:20] <myself> (meaning it'll take other paths, like your PC..)
[13:20] <gonzo__> have seen pics where a big fat lightening condictor blew, and it just jumped through a nearby window to earth on a mains earth
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[13:20] <gonzo__> direst strike it will blow everythiung to shit
[13:20] <fsphil> and probably things nearby too
[13:20] <gonzo__> the only thing you can do is provide a discharge for static build up
[13:20] <myself> telecom practice is to sweep the bends of grounds with as wide a radios as possible, and avoid "choking" them by running through ladder-rack rungs, and so on. All in the name of keeping the path low-inductance.
[13:22] <myself> btw, "a few k resistor from coax centre to ground" is what you find in an in-line attenuator pad. They're like $2.
[13:23] <gonzo__> yep, but you don't want the actual attenuation inline R
[13:23] <myself> right, so pick the lowest-value attenuator you can find; 0.1dB or some such, and it'll act as a static drain and not much else
[13:24] <myself> or just use a shorted-stub, if you don't mind being frequency-specific.
[13:24] <gonzo__> when I make coax dipole baluns, they are DC floating. So I will earth off one leg of the dipole, to ground, inside the mount box, with a few k of R, just as a static path
[13:24] <myself> http://www.mwpersons.com/articles/2013/shorted-stub/05-22-13-shorted-stub.html
[13:26] <gonzo__> in the case if MaXimaN's antenna, it is DC short anyway, so no need for that. Just a static ground, to stop any build up, eg where the radio/laptop/pc system is not grounded through
[13:27] <myself> oh yeah, if the antenna is shorted anyway, then it's a game of giving the current a path that bypasses the PC
[13:28] <MaXimaN> Okay, so using an inline arrestor and connecting the earth lug to mains earth should be enough for static build-up?
[13:29] <gonzo__> I've had similar with a radio on battery, and getting a little bite from static when touching the case
[13:29] <gonzo__> laptop psu's are often double unsulated, so any voltage builds up between that and earth
[13:30] <myself> MaXimaN: yeah, that would do it.
[13:31] <gonzo__> (actually they often ground the dc 0v to the centre of the Y caps (or is it the X caps?) on non earther PSus, leaving you with a floaty ground at half mains)
[13:31] <MaXimaN> Great - that is no problem for my setup
[13:31] <MaXimaN> Thanks for the help and insights guys :)
[13:32] <myself> Going the other way, I've seen high-voltage environments in particle accelerators and stuff, where an entire room is floating ~1MV above ground, connected with optical transceivers back to the rest of the control setup, and power is delivered to the room by a motor-generator pair with a long fiberglass shaft between them. :) So that's pretty much the opposite of what you want!
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[13:39] <myself> (In this photo, the silver box overhead is the high-voltage room, and the "middle leg" on the side nearest the camera is the generator shaft, powered by the silver motor on the ground behind the yellow-shirt guy: http://www.fnal.gov/pub/today/images/images10/photowalk_cockroft.jpg )
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[13:40] <myself> (and here's someone in the room while it's not running: http://agni.phys.iit.edu/~vpa/images/80-0121-03.jpg )
[13:44] <gonzo__> myself, I worked on the control gear for the fr-uk power link. A long tiome ago. That was a HV DC link, with great stacks of GTO thyristors to switch the DC back up to 3ph.
[13:44] <gonzo__> that used fibre optic network tcvrs, as simple switches, all the way up the stack
[13:45] <myself> gonzo__: oh, sweet :) More sci-fi-looking HV gear..
[13:45] <gonzo__> was fun to have to clean off all the optic cables to get any conductive mresidues off
[13:45] <gonzo__> The office I shared, was the old control rool for the defunct HV lab
[13:46] <gonzo__> Known as the frankenstein lab, as the 1938 (?) film used that as the dr's lab
[13:47] <gonzo__> and some of the old kit, like dis boards with knofe switches etc, that was borrowed for film props was still there
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[14:02] <myself> gonzo__: that sounds badass; do you have photos?
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[14:14] <edmoore> everyone who calls into radio 6 music is a graphic designer
[14:19] <myself> That's useful info.
[14:20] <myself> Get hired at r6 and start slipping subliminal messages into the programming, knowing that it'll impact graphic designers most heavily.
[14:20] <myself> A few months later, observe as advertising campaigns all shift towards a "cupcakes and dongs" theme, as suggested.
[14:21] <edmoore> well exactly
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[14:21] <myself> Sell cupcakesanddongs.com to the highest bidder, prfit.
[14:22] <edmoore> maybe easier to just rob a bank
[14:22] <gonzo__> myself, don't think I had a camera then
[14:23] <gonzo__> it still had a 3ft copper call on massive insulators, hanging down in the roof
[14:23] <SIbot> In real units: 3ft = 0.9144 metre
[14:23] <edmoore> it's back
[14:23] <gonzo__> sorry sibot, 1931 was imperial
[14:23] <jonsowman> and it says metre instead of meter now
[14:23] <gonzo__> we still had an empire back then!
[14:24] <gonzo__> is there a us version that will conver5t back to christian measuremen ts?
[14:24] <dieter> does anyone know where to find suitable, light weight rechargeable batterys for high altitude balloons?
[14:25] <gonzo__> energiser lithiums?
[14:25] <gonzo__> ah, sorry, rechargeable.
[14:25] <jonsowman> not rechargeable but it's what most people use since they're light and high capacity
[14:25] <daveake> recharged by buying new ones
[14:25] <gonzo__> that was going to be my jibe at sustainable
[14:25] <mfa298> In most cases you should only use rechargeable batteries if your name is Leo
[14:25] <dieter> they need to be recharged during the flight
[14:26] <gonzo__> wjhat sort of flight,. as the temp/p[ressure probably dictated the batt technology
[14:27] <edmoore> agilent make solar panel simulator sources
[14:27] <edmoore> interestingly
[14:27] <dieter> the battery is needed for a balloon, temperature falling down to -40*
[14:27] <edmoore> i think they mean what sort of flight
[14:27] <edmoore> is it to be floating at 10km?
[14:28] <dieter> yes
[14:28] <edmoore> or just going up and down to 30km over 3 hours?
[14:28] <dieter> no it woll be floating
[14:28] <dieter> maybe several days
[14:28] <gonzo__> leo is the man for that then
[14:29] <dieter> so he will be here someday?
[14:30] <edmoore> he's on quite often
[14:30] <dieter> okay thank you
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[14:30] <edmoore> i don't follow any of this, but i think it's a question of some brands of lithium-polymer battery behaving better than others
[14:30] <edmoore> you could buy a whole bunch and test them in the freezer
[14:31] <edmoore> and i imagine there's some strategy in knowing when to recharge
[14:32] <edmoore> i.e. not trying to recharge when the cell is too cold
[14:32] <dieter> i already made some tests with high impedance accumulators which perform well downto -20, but i need som more current, so maybe leo knows something better
[14:33] <dieter> and maybe he knowns where to get those solar cells
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[14:41] <mfa298> I think one of the key things Leo does is ensure the battery is warm enough before trying to recharge it. He's also got a pretty low power design.
[14:43] <gonzo__> heavilly insulate the batt and use some charging power to warm it irst>
[14:43] <gonzo__> first
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[14:54] <craag_philcrump> Leo went for the approach of minimal insulation, and colouring it black to use solar heating in the morning
[14:55] <SpeedEvil> mfa298: I don't think that's true
[14:56] <SpeedEvil> mfa298: If it was, the battery voltage would lag considerably the solar
[14:56] <craag_philcrump> SpeedEvil: Dunno if it's on B-6[4,6], but he's certainly done it in the past.
[14:57] <MaXimaN> edmoore: Leo confirmed he doesn't check temp before recharging
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> http://aprs.fi/telemetry/?call=M0XER-4&date_start=2014-09-21+03%3A36%3A54&date_end=2014-09-21+04%3A30
[14:58] <craag_philcrump> By the time the sun is high enough to incident the panels though - the payload's been side on for a while - and has probably warmed enough.
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> The battery voltage starts to rise atthe time the solar panel voltage is .25 volt or so
[14:59] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[14:59] <MaXimaN> That just means the cells are generating sufficient current to charge
[14:59] <SpeedEvil> yes - at -43C
[15:00] <craag_philcrump> Or that the cells are warming up and losing internal resistance...
[15:00] <SpeedEvil> craag_philcrump: I was ignoring that for simplicity
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:01] <craag_philcrump> so many factors :P
[15:01] <craag_philcrump> need to get a few test probes on it
[15:01] <craag_philcrump> anyone got a ladder?
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> If hte solar panel circuit was 'proper' MPPT - the amount of power out at .25V will be nearly zero.
[15:02] <SpeedEvil> If it has a minimum current it can draw - it may be somewhat noticable
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[15:04] <SpeedEvil> Or, indeed if the solar cell is leaky
[15:04] <ScottM85> hi
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> (to a close approximation, 60mV panel rise means 10* panel current at optimal power point
[15:05] <SpeedEvil> ScottM85: hey
[15:05] <MaXimaN> So something like this might do the trick? http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/sense_power/FM142/CL1810/SC1517/PF251161
[15:08] <SpeedEvil> What's the quiescant current?
[15:08] <MaXimaN> 60uA typical
[15:10] <ScottM85> I was on here the other day asking about using digitalwrite for RTTY between the Arduino and NTX2B and was told to look at this link: http://ava.upuaut.net/?p=617
[15:10] <ScottM85> Will RTTY with one pin like that work with digitalwrite or do I need to do something similar to this and swap high and low? http://alienproject.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/radiometrix-circuit-diagram.png
[15:11] <ScottM85> the second way seems to make more sense to me, when I tried to generate RTTY from one pin with digitalwrite and a resistor it seems to just be making noise
[15:12] <ScottM85> but then perhaps my resistor value was way off
[15:13] <edmoore> the first link uses PWM
[15:14] <edmoore> it approximates an analogue voltage by switching between 1 and 0 very quickly, but changing the amount of time it spends on '1' and '0' depending on what voltage you want to create
[15:14] <edmoore> so think of it like this
[15:14] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLgR3Ipo-Ng Teeny jet is teeny.
[15:14] <edmoore> you go to the light switch in your room
[15:14] <edmoore> you tun the light on for 1s, off for 1s
[15:14] <edmoore> repeat forever
[15:14] <edmoore> you'll see the light go on and off, yes?
[15:14] <ScottM85> yes, I did read up on PWM
[15:14] <edmoore> oh ok fine
[15:14] <edmoore> well you should be able to answerr your own question then
[15:15] <ScottM85> But does digitalwrite do the same thing?
[15:15] <edmoore> as to why a digital-write will or won't work, if you understand what the pwm is doing
[15:15] <edmoore> http://arduino.cc/en/Reference/digitalWrite
[15:16] <edmoore> it might work if you recreate PWM in software by using timers to switching the pin on and off very fast with digitalwrite
[15:16] <edmoore> but i suspect that's probably not something you want to do given your question
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[15:17] <edmoore> do you understand that the task at hand is to generate one of two specific analogue voltages for the ntx2?
[15:17] <edmoore> say 1V and 1.2V or whatever it is, I forget
[15:18] <edmoore> one way to do that is with PWM
[15:18] <edmoore> another way is with a potential divider
[15:18] <ScottM85> Yes, I think that's what my second link is doing? The 2 different resistance levels create different voltages
[15:18] <edmoore> exactly
[15:19] <edmoore> and the first link is doing the same thing with PWM
[15:19] <ScottM85> but the second link is driven by 2 pins as opposed to one?
[15:20] <ScottM85> set one high, one low, and swap them to change the voltage difference?
[15:20] <edmoore> yes
[15:20] <edmoore> you don't even have to do that
[15:20] <edmoore> you can do it with one pin and a potential divider
[15:20] <edmoore> 2 pins is unecessary
[15:20] <mattbrejza> lol the circuit that will never die
[15:20] <edmoore> you just need to arrange the resistors in the divider correctly
[15:21] <daveake> Just for luck, that has a resistor on the enable line, for no reason
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[15:23] <ScottM85> I saw that too, it's all so confusing lol
[15:23] <daveake> http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/guides:ntx2_1_.png?w=400&tok=29051a is what you need (for the digitalwrite version)
[15:25] <ScottM85> great, thanks, I'm going to try that tonight
[15:26] <edmoore> this has the maths
[15:26] <edmoore> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2?rev=1381045698
[15:26] <daveake> It should be easier to get your ahead round than the 2-output-pin version
[15:26] <edmoore> you're basically just making a potential divider that alternates between +v -- 1 resistor --- tx --- 2 resistors in parallel -- gnd
[15:26] <daveake> The 4k7 resistors set a bias to half the supply voltage, then the output pin pulls that down a bit or up a bit, depending on your digitalwrite value
[15:26] <edmoore> and the opposite, where you have 2 resistors in parallel at the top, and one at the bottom
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[15:27] <edmoore> because the gpio pin is really just connection its feed resistors to vcc or gnd, depending on your code
[15:27] <edmoore> connecting its feed resistor*
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[15:29] <ScottM85> OK, that makes more sense, I think it will be clearer to me once I get it working, then I can write high and low and measure what's getting to the txd pin
[15:29] <edmoore> yep
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[18:20] <edmoore> 'i'm jamie cullam and i'm here live in the studio'
[18:20] <edmoore> nothing poisen gas through the vents won't fix
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[19:15] <Rebounder>
[19:17] <fsphil> yes
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[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> http://www.nasa.gov/press/2014/september/nasa-s-newest-mars-mission-spacecraft-enters-orbit-around-red-planet/ yes :)
[19:41] <fsphil> indeedy, and another very shortly
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> It's not actually a scientific mission.
[19:42] <SpeedEvil> The NASA probe got hungry and ordered a curry.
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[19:42] <Lunar_Lander> the one that arrives on Wednesday?
[19:43] <fsphil> yea
[19:43] <Lunar_Lander> ah
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[20:10] <chrisstubbs> I'm after some power supply advice
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[20:11] <mattbrejza> decouple the everything
[20:11] <mattbrejza> </advice>
[20:11] <fsphil> decouple the decouple
[20:11] <chrisstubbs> The - of the supply is a hundred or so volts above earth
[20:12] <chrisstubbs> el cheapo bench supply that is
[20:12] <chrisstubbs> and it cant do any good for my PC when I connect it up to a board with a shared ground
[20:12] <chrisstubbs> should I just tie it down to earth?
[20:13] <mattbrejza> i would assume the terminal is floating, and so connecting to earth wont cause any current to flow
[20:13] <mattbrejza> your rcd will tell you otherwise though
[20:14] <mfa298> if you connect the 0v lines first it would probably be ok, My first DigitalTV USB device had a PSU like that. Made life interesting connecting things up
[20:14] <mattbrejza> but in general thats why its always a good idea to connect gnd first before anything else
[20:15] <chrisstubbs> Its not tripped the RCD before but you can feel it if you touch the output and something grounded
[20:16] <mattbrejza> a continuous feeling or just for a moment?
[20:16] <chrisstubbs> continuous
[20:16] <chrisstubbs> this is expert diagnostics ;)
[20:16] <mattbrejza> either way, connecting to earth seems like a wise move
[20:17] <mattbrejza> (itll connect to earth through your pc otherwise anyway)
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[20:22] <mikestir> there's an article in this month's radcom that will explain that high voltage
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[20:24] <MaXimaN> Extreme microSD recovery: http://emandatarecovery.com/articles/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/DSC_0263.jpg
[20:25] <mikestir> ha. and I thought I had a hard time when I recovered a memory stick for someone after they'd sat on it and snapped it in half
[20:25] <mikestir> that one was readable as long as it was clamped in a vice
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[21:16] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03PIFALCON - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?focus=PIFALCON
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[21:26] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
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[21:59] <mheld> fun fact
[21:59] <mheld> ublox celllocate is super inaccurate
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[22:04] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[22:27] <MaXimaN> I think I might have found somthing more useful than a lightning arrestor :)
[22:27] <MaXimaN> https://www.tindie.com/products/TAUTIC/as3935-lightning-sensor-board/
[22:27] <ulfr> That's cool.
[22:28] <arko> very
[22:28] <arko> fsphil: ^^
[22:30] <fsphil> lol at the rotating video
[22:30] <Ian__> The problem with knowing you have been hit with lightning is the speed with which your brain evaporates in the fireball.
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[00:00] --- Tue Sep 23 2014