highaltitude.log.20140901

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[00:01] <F1VJQ> SpeedEvil One filter is enough... two is a luxury..in practice all you achieve is a rejection of stuff within 10 or 20 MHz
[00:01] <F1VJQ> Id est... not a few hundred Hz
[00:02] <SpeedEvil> K
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[00:02] <SpeedEvil> And yes - in practice it's not needed.
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[00:02] <F1VJQ> so can I go to bed now please? :-)
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[00:03] <F1VJQ> 02:06 here
[00:03] <F1VJQ> 02:04
[00:03] <F1VJQ> ish!!
[00:03] <SpeedEvil> Only 1AM here
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> I'mnot saying it's a decent reciever - only that it vastly improves it for HABing to the point that it's not that far off
[00:04] <F1VJQ> SpeedEvil then you are in UK
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> If there are no very strong in-band interferers.
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> Yes.
[00:05] <F1VJQ> RX = dongle?
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> Much of the issue with the SDR things is out-of-band stuff cranking the AGC down, and poor image rejection
[00:05] <SpeedEvil> And bad noise figure
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[00:06] <F1VJQ> SpeedEvil dongle does what it does... it cannot beat a decent RX
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[00:06] <SpeedEvil> Well - except pretty obviously on price! :)
[00:06] <F1VJQ> but... it does what it does quite well... if not top of the shop
[00:07] <MLow_> cant seem to get mine to work right lol
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[00:07] Nick change: triple-clones -> tripleclones
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[00:08] <F1VJQ> I have an old Icom transceiver, IC 475 say £500 on ebay... bloody good RX ...not as cheap as a dongle but far better
[00:08] <SpeedEvil> Oh - sure.
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> In almost every way, a proper radio is better
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> (exceptions are if you need >3/9Khz
[00:09] <MLow> managed to mess with some settings and have a signal working that is nearby with high power
[00:09] <MLow> yay
[00:09] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:10] <MLow> http://screencloud.net/v/1g6W
[00:10] <amell> wow. someone hacked icloud and downloaded loads of peoples private pics.
[00:10] <amell> be interesting to see how apple respond&
[00:10] <F1VJQ> SpeEDeVIL WHY would I want 3/9 kHz?
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[00:11] <SpeedEvil> I mean bandwidth in a single signal
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[00:12] <F1VJQ> SpeedEvil only have real world 3kHz bandwidth on real radios!!
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> F1VJQ: I would also wonder if your monitor has a 55KHz timebase
[00:13] <SpeedEvil> ^horizontal
[00:13] <F1VJQ> Why?
[00:13] <F1VJQ> I have an XP laptop
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> That nice comb at 55khz (or so) intervals across the bottom of the signal
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> Try also unplugging the power adaptor of the laptop, and see if noise drops
[00:14] <SpeedEvil> Putting the thingy at the end of a 5m cable can also help
[00:16] <F1VJQ> power adapter and recently replaced adapter both the same... no interference
[00:16] <SpeedEvil> Can also be handy to carry it out into the garden, and see if any of that is very local
[00:18] Nick change: qyx__ -> qyx_
[00:18] <F1VJQ> I am off to bed... 02:18 here
[00:18] <F1VJQ> GN all 73
[00:19] <MLow> geez im at 47 ppm frequency correction, is that normal?
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[00:22] <amell> im at 79ppm
[00:22] <SpeedEvil> MLow: don't expect them to be more than +-100ppm or so accurate - the crystals they come with aren't good
[00:23] <MLow> i wonder if one could improve it much by replacing the crystal?
[00:23] <MLow> maybe a TCXO
[00:23] <SpeedEvil> MLow: you don't usually care about the absolute accuracy
[00:23] <amell> there was a link somewhere with all the enhancements you can make, but for the life of me i cant find it
[00:23] <amell> it was really good link :(
[00:24] <MLow> just relative yes, but what if as the chip heats/etc
[00:25] <SpeedEvil> 50ppm drift is 20khz
[00:26] <SpeedEvil> You will usually be able to spot the real signal within that
[00:28] <MLow> any idea why my sdrsharp looks like this?
[00:28] <MLow> http://screencloud.net/v/qqS7
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[00:30] <SpeedEvil> Everything is jumping around?
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[00:30] <MLow> the lines
[00:30] <MLow> they are not real signals it seems
[00:32] <Latobius> DL7AD: Please see http://www.ukhas.net/wiki/ircbot
[00:33] <DL7AD> !ping B-64
[00:33] <SpacenearUS> 03DL7AD: Last contact with 03B-64 was 03a few seconds ago
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[00:39] <Hoogvlieger> !flights
[00:39] <SpacenearUS> 03Hoogvlieger: Current flights: 03kg7juw-5 launch 10(f6a5), 03kg7juw-5 launch 10(8160), 03EMF1 10(ac03), 03PS-19 434.650 OLIVIA 8/250 Enable RSID 10(ea6f), 03B-64 434.500 Contestia 64/1000 10(3afe), 03B-66 434.500 Contestia 64/1000 10(705b)
[00:39] <amell> http://www.amazon.co.uk/KEEDOX®-RTL-SDR-Receiver-Realtek-RTL2832U/dp/B009VBUYA0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1409531764&sr=8-1&keywords=SDR#productDetails
[00:40] <amell> says the input impedance is 75 ohms. is that right? i thought it needed to be 50 ohms
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[00:54] <MLow> tons of noise or something even tho the signals seem strong, ugh
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[01:10] <MLow> bummer everyone going to sleep
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[02:32] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03ROFAAG_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?filter=ROFAAG_chase
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[03:44] <cipher0> Sup guys?
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[03:56] <cipher0> anyone here?
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[05:21] <cipher_> What I expected: http://i.imgur.com/PeKVEcI.png
[05:21] <cipher_> What I got: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Vwp6zcO.png[/IMG]
[05:22] <cipher_> http://i.imgur.com/Vwp6zcO.png
[05:22] <cipher_> Filled using the guide here on the wiki, and the calculators
[05:22] <cipher_> Any way to guess if this is a balloon (helium) problem or parachute problem?
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[05:37] <Upu> what was the decent rate ?
[05:37] <Upu> and how long before did you do the prediction
[05:38] <Upu> oh all spot ?
[05:39] <cipher_> OK, so it was a 300 gram payload with 18'' sphearachute, so accroding to this calc it was 5.45 m/s
[05:39] <cipher_> http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Parachutes.html
[05:39] <cipher_> Which is the number I imputted in the Predictor
[05:39] <Upu> but what was it in reality ?
[05:39] <cipher_> like the calculated ascent rate from the habhub calc
[05:40] <cipher_> In reality I threw it down a building and it seemed like it
[05:40] <Upu> lol
[05:40] <Upu> run a radio tracker next time so we have some data
[05:40] <Upu> How long before did you snap that predition ?
[05:41] <cipher_> Just before launch I ran the predictor
[05:41] <Upu> ok
[05:41] <Upu> its very hard to say without some actual flight data
[05:41] <cipher_> As well as few times an hour and 3 hours before, was very similar
[05:42] <cipher_> Well it ascends in the path of the Predictor, then data is lost because >6000 meters
[05:43] <cipher_> ascent rate: 5.14 m/s
[05:43] <cipher_> And then it appears again in Turkey
[05:43] <cipher_> so it went below 6000 meters again. And foes to the East
[05:43] <Upu> something was different
[05:45] <cipher_> Either the balloon wasnt filled with good helium, didnt burst at right altitude/time. Or the sphearachute somehow magically made it descend like cotton, which I think is unlikely. Thoughts?
[05:46] <cipher_> I don't think the Predictor is so inaccurate for my region right?
[05:46] <cipher_> Ran another predictor which gave the same prediction
[05:52] <Upu> same data as around the world
[05:52] <Upu> should be no more inaccurate
[05:54] <cipher_> Right. So the only thing I can think of is the gas had too much air mixed with helium, the balloon didnt burst for some reason, or the sphearachute did magic.
[05:55] <Upu> again really tough to judge without some data, this is another reason I don't like spots
[05:55] <Upu> possibly went higher, had a slower decent rate
[05:56] <cipher_> hm
[05:56] <cipher_> The fact that it went more East instead of West, does that sparkle a clue?
[05:57] <cipher_> And I guess I need to refresh my memory on this: what happens if balloon is overfilled and underfilled?
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[05:59] <cipher_> I've played around with the predictor by changing the ascend and descend rates from 5 to 7 and burst altitude from 28000 to 33000, no way it would go East according to the Predictor
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[06:02] <Upu> over filled would burst earlier
[06:02] <Upu> afk driving to work
[06:03] <cipher_> thanks man. And underfilled burst later ?
[06:05] <thasti> cipher_: or not at all, if it comes to a float before burst altitude can be reached
[06:06] <cipher_> thanks. that gives a clue
[06:06] <x-f> cipher_, did it land on time or much later?
[06:06] <thasti> then helium might leak out of the filling nozzle and the balloon might start to come down slowly
[06:06] <cipher_> much later
[06:06] <thasti> that might be in indicator
[06:06] <cipher_> let me check the time again
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[06:08] <cipher_> OK, so launch time (local) at 3:30 pm, landing on 7:02 am += 5 minutes
[06:08] <cipher_> *+-
[06:09] <x-f> 16 hours?
[06:10] <Rebounder> morgin!
[06:10] <Rebounder> +n
[06:10] <x-f> morning
[06:10] <cipher_> According to the tracker, yes.
[06:11] <x-f> cipher_, floaters usually burst shortly after the sunrise
[06:11] <cipher_> Thats a good hint, thank you.
[06:11] <cipher_> btw, why?
[06:12] <x-f> latex degrades, balloon warms up after the night, ascends higher and pops
[06:12] <cipher_> ok
[06:13] <cipher_> And it becomes a floated because of underfilling or leaking?
[06:13] <cipher_> *floater
[06:14] <x-f> both reasons are possible, both are used to achieve floating when it's the aim of the flight
[06:17] <cipher_> Thanks a lot. And can sweat.etc by accidental contact to me cause it to become a floater? Or will it just burst earlier/easier?
[06:18] <thasti> possibly the last one, it may degrade the latex
[06:18] <thasti> cipher_: did the GSM tracker you ordered (we talked about it here some weeks ago) work well?
[06:19] <cipher_> No, the payload was lost. Possibly the same thing happened and my sim card didnt have roaming enabled.
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[06:20] <cipher_> it works well, some people Ive heard use it as backup tracker, but here in Armenia the coverage is very poor.
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[06:21] <cipher_> So I guess my question is, if the latex is degraded, what do you think is more likely: that will lead toeasier burst or leaking? And if you have filled balloons with successfull recovery, have you managed to not have any contact with the balloon?
[06:23] <thasti> cipher_: my guess it that it just (if anything) leads to an earlier burst, a small "leak" in form of a hole in the balloon is not very probable (surface tension would tear up the whole balloon then) - but someone correct me if i'm wrong
[06:23] <cipher_> I hope you're right.
[06:24] <cipher_> Others: opinions?
[06:24] <thasti> well radio trackers are the thing to use, you can have steady connection to the balloon (position data, altitude) without being dependent on cellular networks
[06:24] <cipher_> thasti, I stopped using cellular based gps trackers
[06:25] <thasti> what did you use for that flight?
[06:25] <cipher_> A Spot tracker in a gyroscope.
[06:26] <thasti> yeah, but the problem persists - if it can "see" the satellite it won't give you any positions
[06:26] <thasti> can't*
[06:26] <cipher_> Yes I understand all that. I've thought about all this before making a choice.
[06:28] <cipher_> So the possibilities so far are leaking or underfilling...
[06:29] <cipher_> I also ran the Predictor with a crazy 0.1 m/s ascend rate to check if a bad quality "helium" gas could be the problem. Again says it would go East, to Iran or Azerbaijan, not Turkey (West)
[06:30] <thasti> yeah that is kind of strange, maybe some kind of bad weather (storms, rain etc) were in a region near you?
[06:30] <cipher_> Is this enough to conclude the problem wasnt a bad helium+air gas mix. Or would that also affect the balloon burst altitude.
[06:30] <thasti> did you measure the lift the payload had? or know about the ascent rate right after launch?
[06:31] <thasti> both could be used to tell
[06:31] <cipher_> thasti, doesnt the predictor take the weather into account? It was pretty sunny with little clouds at launch time and after 4 hours, then there were rain clouds.
[06:32] <cipher_> The payload was 300 grams. The balloon was Hoywee 500. I used the neck lift (904 grams) from the calculator on this site
[06:32] <thasti> i don't know if it takes that into account, but remember that moisture (i.e. raindrops)
[06:32] <thasti> also add weight that slow the ascent
[06:33] <UpuWork> its most likely a slow ascent cipher_
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[06:33] <cipher_> I ran the predictor at 0.1 m/s ascend and descend, it would go East then, not West
[06:34] <cipher_> I also used the bottle weghing the neck lift trick to determine how much helium to fill.
[06:34] <cipher_> *neck lift weight
[06:35] <cipher_> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=726e82163d6b1a3c50f537bf5967a373422e59c3
[06:35] <cipher_> It hasnt changed much since yesterday
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[06:37] <cipher_> I wish I had taken some photos of the filler and the water bottle tied to the filler. I can make some photos of how it looked in few hours
[06:37] <MLow> was RASA recovered it looks like the chase vehicle was right on it
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[06:39] <x-f> MLow, not yet, it landed in a huge tree in a swampy forest
[06:39] <MLow> dang
[06:39] <MLow> and the others?
[06:39] <x-f> we know where it is, more attempts will be made later
[06:40] <x-f> those tree payloads were under the same balloon
[06:40] <MLow> Oh
[06:40] <MLow> my mistake, interesting
[06:40] <x-f> three*
[06:40] <MLow> hehe, tree payloads they are now i guess
[06:41] <x-f> indeed
[06:43] <cipher_> So guys, if the balloon was filled with a impure helium, would that also change the balloon expansion rate and burst altitude, or just the ascent rate?
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[06:46] <jcoxon> yes it would ascend slower and burst earlier
[06:46] <jcoxon> well it depends
[06:46] <jcoxon> if you've measured neck lift it should ascend at the same speed
[06:46] <jcoxon> but burst earlier
[06:47] <jcoxon> x-f, should have flown a ukhasnet node
[06:47] <jcoxon> then you'd have a new node in a tree
[06:47] <MLow> lol
[06:48] <cipher_> Thanks. Yeah, I measured the neck lift. Burst earlier? Why.
[06:48] <jcoxon> because the helium/air mix
[06:49] <jcoxon> so the helium will provide the lift, the air won't add any lift
[06:49] <jcoxon> but it will expand
[06:50] <jcoxon> and so the balloon will expand more then predicted and burst earlier
[06:50] <MLow> so i was talking with someone about this the other day, but helium vs. hydrogen
[06:50] <cipher_> I get it now, thank you. So I can test what would happen then by just changing the burst altitude to other lower numbers yes?
[06:51] <MLow> i've done a little research, but can't seem to turn up much more than, hydrogen lifts more, but it's also dangerous as all get out
[06:51] <jcoxon> cipher_, its not particularly easy to change it on the predictor
[06:52] <cipher_> It isn't? I've tried values from 2000m to 40,000
[06:52] <number10> jcoxon: was the balloon in range of your node yesterday?
[06:52] <cipher_> using the CUSF predictor
[06:52] <jcoxon> oh i mean to take into account a helium/air mix
[06:53] <jcoxon> MLow, its cheaper as well but it isn't as dangerous
[06:53] <jcoxon> just need to be sensible
[06:53] <jcoxon> number10, on the edge but the downs would have been in the way
[06:53] <jcoxon> (remember i'm in kent these days)
[06:53] <cipher_> well, you said it would affect the burst altitude and explained why, and wouldnt affect the ascent rate
[06:53] <jcoxon> it went right between out 2 big sets of nodes in whitstable and southhampton
[06:53] <cipher_> And from my neck lift weight test, it didnt
[06:53] <MLow> jcoxon: all i can think about tho is hauling a tank in my little car that not only could explode but the contents are flamable
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[06:54] <number10> ah - I forgot - thought you were in london still, any other nodes in range
[06:54] <number10> (slow reading)
[06:54] <cipher_> So I'm not sure why the predictor wouldn't work well for this
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[06:55] <jcoxon> cipher_, oh i thought you were playing the the burst calculator, sure the predictor will be fine
[06:55] <daveake> cipher_, Where did it land?
[06:56] <daveake> and how long after launch?
[06:56] <jcoxon> number10, it sort of scrapped the range of my nodes in whitstable but their antenna are far from adaqute
[06:57] <cipher_> http://i.imgur.com/Vwp6zcO.png
[06:57] <cipher_> Turkey, went West
[06:57] <daveake> How long after launch?
[06:57] <cipher_> But should have been: http://i.imgur.com/PeKVEcI.png
[06:57] <cipher_> (East)
[06:57] <cipher_> according to the tracker, took 16 hours
[06:58] <jcoxon> cipher_, okay it floated
[06:58] <cipher_> (instead of the predicted 2)
[06:58] <jcoxon> and caught the east-west winds
[06:58] <daveake> yup
[06:58] <jcoxon> and got pulled east and over turkey
[06:58] <cipher_> east-west winds?
[06:58] <daveake> to go west
[06:58] <daveake> It can't go west otherwise
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[06:59] <jcoxon> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=47228b68c6030e9ce2617d2fd4e49e48aa2c8270
[06:59] <cipher_> Seems like it, guys. I played around with the precitor with crazy numbers like 0.5 m/s ascend and descend rate, 2000 meters to 40,000 meters burst altitudes. It never showed going West
[07:00] <jcoxon> so have a look at this
[07:00] <jcoxon> this is if it floated for ever
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[07:00] <jcoxon> but then imagine it bursting over turkey
[07:00] <jcoxon> when it descends it'll go east again
[07:00] <jcoxon> hence the pattern you got in the spot signal
[07:00] <cipher_> Nice!
[07:01] <cipher_> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=d87b64e49f0e3ee2c1cd938fc4c919a21f0db837
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[07:01] <jcoxon> cipher_, no i don't think that happened
[07:01] <cipher_> This is the only case when the predictor says it going East: 0.01 ascent rate and 2000 m burst altitude
[07:01] <cipher_> but I would have to be blind to not notice it going so slow
[07:01] <jcoxon> cipher_, i think daveake and our theory is better (from our balloon experience)
[07:02] <jcoxon> that you ascended, floated but caught the high altitude east->west winds
[07:02] <jcoxon> and then burst a few hours later and descended east again
[07:03] <cipher_> I wouldnt even call mine a theory, just thinking every other possible cause is very unlikely
[07:03] <cipher_> yes I think you guys are right
[07:03] <jcoxon> can you recover?
[07:03] <cipher_> Afraid not
[07:03] <cipher_> We have close borders with Turkey with snipers...
[07:03] <cipher_> *closed
[07:03] <daveake> This is another reason why radio is better than spot - you get data throughout the flight (assuming listeners available)
[07:03] <jcoxon> know anyone in turkey?
[07:04] <jcoxon> cipher_, email the ukhas mailing list and explain about the flight
[07:04] <jcoxon> who knows someone might know some nearby
[07:04] <cipher_> Yes, but too far from them (Istanbul).
[07:06] <cipher_> If anyone wants to recover the payload, the coordinates are 39.48077 43.02366
[07:06] <daveake> bit too far from here
[07:06] <cipher_> I don't care much about the payload, it has 1 spot tracker and a plastic gyroscope
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[07:07] <cipher_> I just want to know what went wrong really.
[07:09] <daveake> Well, to float it means it didn't have enough lift. Beyond that hard to say for sure.
[07:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> I see EDUPIC1 is still going strong even if the padding is wrong!
[07:09] <daveake> Isn't that what happened last time that launched?
[07:10] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> It is indeed he's been ribbed about on HABHUB ;-)
[07:10] <daveake> Ha :)
[07:10] <daveake> Oh dear. Still, my first launch had 2 bugs and I only fixed one for the second.
[07:10] <MLow> Geoff-G8DHE-Lap: ?
[07:10] <daveake> That got deserved ribbing too
[07:10] <fsphil> still does :)
[07:10] <mfa298> cipher_: the floating theory from jcoxon and daveake would seem most likely. if you look closely at the prediction you got just before the flight you can see it goes west for a bit just before the predicted burst. In reality it seems like it stayed at that altitude much longer.
[07:10] <MLow> its still tx but excuse my ignorance, "padding"
[07:11] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> The 0's in front of the lat/long are missing characters
[07:11] <daveake> It's when you send (e.g.) "1.5000" instead of "1.0050"
[07:11] <daveake> A very very common mistake
[07:11] <fsphil> %4i instead of %04i
[07:11] <daveake> Pretty sure it's #1 in the UKHAS hit parade
[07:12] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> the two parts of the value are handled seperatley
[07:12] <fsphil> it works 9/10 times
[07:12] <cipher_> Sorry mfa298, what do you mean that it stayed at that altitude much longer?
[07:12] <MLow> is that not from storing the variables incorrectly?
[07:12] <LazyLeopard> ...and leads to all sorts of spider webs and the like on th tracker.
[07:12] <daveake> cipher_, It did, obviously, as we said earlier
[07:12] <fsphil> it's from formatting the integer wrong
[07:12] <MLow> i understand that much
[07:12] <MLow> interesting
[07:12] <fsphil> side effect of people trying to avoid using floats
[07:13] <MLow> yeah i was about to say isnt that exactly what a float is for
[07:13] <cipher_> daveake, sorry, maybe its my english, I don't understand that part
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[07:13] <daveake> It landed west. Therefore it stayed, for some time, in winds that went from east to west.
[07:13] <cipher_> OK
[07:13] <LazyLeopard> 32bit float doesn't have sufficient precision for positions in degrees.
[07:14] <mfa298> cipher_: that's what floating would suggest, it got to a high altitude and stayed up there much longer than expected. either it went higher thn expected or it didn't burst when it was supposed to (i.e.it floated)
[07:14] <daveake> To do that it seems that it floated (i.e. stayed at the same altitude) in those winds
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[07:14] <daveake> That in turn means that it was under-filled. So it went up, stopped going up, went west, then eventually burst and came down
[07:15] <cipher_> I understand.
[07:15] <cipher_> You mean leaking right, because I tested the neck lift
[07:15] <daveake> No
[07:16] <cipher_> huh?
[07:16] <daveake> I don't mean it leaked
[07:16] <cipher_> So you think I tested the neck lift wrongly then?
[07:17] <daveake> I suspect so yes
[07:17] <daveake> Like I said it's difficult to say anything firmly other than we're pretty sure it floated
[07:17] <LazyLeopard> Which payload? Joey?
[07:18] <cipher_> thasti said he thinks the problem is leaking or underfilling. Why do you think it wasnt leaking?
[07:18] <cipher_> or did I misunderstand?
[07:18] <daveake> Because it burst
[07:20] <cipher_> I dont understand why leaking would make it impossible to burst
[07:20] <mfa298> To get that sort of flight with a leak from the balloon would probably take some real skill, you'de need to get just the right amount of gas to stop it bursting initially turning it into a float. The chance of that compared to the likelyhood of it being underfilled would suggest that it's most likely underfilled.
[07:21] <LazyLeopard> A leaking balloon comes down slowly as the balloon deflates.
[07:22] <cipher_> yes, but if I understood this correctly, it could have "bursted" from the sun degrading the latex?
[07:22] <mfa298> But without decent data of ascent rate and burst altitude (and how long it stayed at that altitude) it's impossible to say what happened for sure. Just than underfill and float is the most likely reason
[07:22] <cipher_> mfa298, yes I understand that.
[07:22] <LazyLeopard> A slightly under-filled balloon doesn't quite get high enough to burst so it sticks around at altitude until eventually the latex gives up.
[07:23] <cipher_> OK
[07:23] <LazyLeopard> Then it bursts.
[07:23] <cipher_> But why cant that happen to a leaking balloon?
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[07:24] <daveake> Because the pressure reduces, because of the leak
[07:24] <mfa298> if it was a leak that turned into a float and burst there are a lot of variables you need to get right (people have activly tried to get floating balloons with a leak in them and usually failed)
[07:24] <MLow> leak is another word for hole, and i doubt the latex would survive long when it started to expand with a hole, i could be pissing in the wind tho
[07:24] <daveake> Also, underfilling is quite common; I don't recall the last flight where it was believed to leak
[07:25] <cipher_> OK. I just thought what you guys said earlier about the balloon degrading could cause a leaking balloon to "burst" too, thats all
[07:25] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LORA2 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?filter=LORA2
[07:25] <daveake> eventually
[07:25] <MLow> ok guys, i spent all night doing it, here it is, my first tracker prototype :) please be gentle on me http://goo.gl/2UcfJE
[07:25] <cipher_> daveake, was that a reply to me?
[07:25] <LazyLeopard> It might happen if the leak was very slight. We've seen latex balloons develop leaks rather than bursting before now, but once they have a leak the gas escapes fairly steadily, so they descend steadily.
[07:26] <daveake> cipher_, yes
[07:26] <cipher_> ok
[07:27] <cipher_> LazyLeopard, you mean the leak would cause the gas to escape faster than the sun would be able to degrade and burst it?
[07:27] <LazyLeopard> One or two have even been launched with a small leak deliberately punched in the thick part of the latex near the neck.
[07:27] <mfa298> cipher_: a leaking balloon that floats and bursts would need to have a lot of things set perfectly to happen (probably including choice of balloon and payload weight as well as how quickly the gas leaked) the chances of you acheivign that randomly are very close to zero.
[07:27] <LazyLeopard> cipher_: Yes, all depends on how big the leak is.
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[07:28] <cipher_> OK :)
[07:28] <cipher_> So underfilling it is.
[07:28] <LazyLeopard> As the latex stretches the leak might get bigger, or the hole might just end up being the weak point that causes an early burst.
[07:29] <MLow> or as my understanding of it, could be bad gas
[07:29] <LazyLeopard> cipher_: Yep, seems most likely. A little more lift, and it'd have risen to bursting point.
[07:30] <daveake> No, bad gas would mean bursting early and going up a bit slower
[07:30] <cipher_> I actually meant a leak from improperly sealing the balloon (not tight enough) not a tiny hole on the balloon
[07:30] <LazyLeopard> MLow: Well, neck-lift measurements should take account of the gas being impure.
[07:30] <MLow> really? hm i guess i just dont understand much
[07:31] <daveake> By measuring neck lift you're measuring how much force there will be lifting the balloon (minus the weight of the payload). So if that's correct, but it's "bad" gas, the lift is the same but the balloon will be a bit larger (because of the extra air inside)
[07:31] <LazyLeopard> cipher_: you'd probably have seen slow descent with that situation.
[07:32] <cipher_> you mean ascent?
[07:32] <LazyLeopard> daveake: Yes, of course. Too early in the morning. ;)
[07:32] <daveake> :)
[07:32] <LazyLeopard> cipher_: Ascent would have slowed, and then the balloon would have descended slowly as it continued to lose gas.
[07:32] <MLow> so if it was bad gas why would it burst early? sorry to be dull
[07:33] <LazyLeopard> More gas inside for a given lift.
[07:33] <daveake> Because the balloon is larger because of the air that was in the impure helium
[07:33] <MLow> ah that make sense sorry
[07:33] <MLow> so it's all about the start diameter, i was trying to figure out why the helium would expand faster lol
[07:34] <cipher_> LazyLeopard, and now I'm again not sure if it wasnt leakage problem, sorry
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[07:34] <MLow> cipher_: not a whole lot you can do other than speculate, from what their saying i strongly agree, if not just for their vast experience in this
[07:35] <daveake> A leak in the envelope means an early burst. This did not happen. A leak in the neck means it not bursting, but coming down very slowly. This did not happen.
[07:35] <fsphil> vast experience of making mistakes :)
[07:35] <daveake> ha :)
[07:35] <daveake> Indeed
[07:35] <MLow> i'll take your vast experience in mistakes over my vast experience in mistakes any day
[07:36] <daveake> I'm honoured
[07:36] <MLow> i'll even adapt your funny way of spelling things :)
[07:36] <cipher_> I also think what you said is the most probable. Its just I want to know if the other only possible cause is extremely unlikely or not
[07:37] <cipher_> I guess the question I wanted to ask is, would small leak cause slow ascend but not cause descend faster than the time the sun would need to degrade and burst it
[07:37] <MLow> i cant make heads or tails of the gps data you linked to, but it looks like a pretty good ascent rate
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[07:38] <cipher_> MLow, how did you find that out from the gps data?
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[07:39] <amell> ooh another XABEN
[07:39] <RocketBoy> they breed like rats
[07:39] <amell> Guaranteed to hear this one. On the ground.
[07:40] <MLow> it looks like it was moving west before track was lost, preditions show it was east-west wind, so it must have got up to good altitude to be in the west-east upper winds
[07:41] <MLow> unless i am mistaken, that is
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[07:41] <cipher_> OK. Hope you're not
[07:41] <cipher_> OK, Im being too paranoid. I used two cable ties on the neck, the rope tied in their middle, then folded the neck over itself like in the wiki and added another cable tie. Taped it. Hoe likely is a leak?
[07:41] <LazyLeopard> cipher_: Here's a balloon that developed a leak rather than bursting properly: http://hrrunka.livejournal.com/pics/catalog/5370/96812
[07:42] <daveake> Wednesday is looking very good for flying
[07:42] <MLow> wow thats a pretty graph
[07:42] <LazyLeopard> Straight up, straight down?
[07:43] <cipher_> what does the graph hint? sorry.
[07:43] <amell> MaxMed was talking about launching from churchill on tues.
[07:43] <LazyLeopard> That's altitude by time.
[07:43] <MLow> equal rise/fall rates
[07:43] <MLow> and sloow
[07:43] <LazyLeopard> Ascent and descent slopes are similar.
[07:44] <amell> he did mention elsworth as a possibility but I said hed have to check with rocketboy on that.
[07:44] <cipher_> sorry for not getting this. And what does that mean?
[07:44] <MLow> looks like 2 hours to get up, 4 to come down wow
[07:45] <LazyLeopard> As the gas leaked out the balloon came down slowly.
[07:45] <MLow> it never really popped, it just deflated over 4 hours
[07:46] <cipher_> Ah, so the point was it came down faster than the sun had time to degrade and burst it, right?
[07:46] <MLow> if it had burst it would have fell in about 30 mins or something
[07:46] <MLow> not 4 hours
[07:47] <LazyLeopard> Yes, and there was less and less pressure inside as the gas leaked and it descended, so there wasn't pressure enough to cause it to burst.
[07:48] <cipher_> I mean the sun "bursting" it, not the gas pressure inside it.
[07:48] <MLow> from my understanding the latex is tuff stuff, it would take more than just the sun to burst it, long time, stress from expanding to 10m wide, etc then the sun can work it's magic
[07:48] <WillDWork> Daveake - are you running multiple trackers on the Wed flight? Also, do you need any specialist stuff to receive the LoRa signal?
[07:48] <daveake> yes and yes
[07:48] <daveake> Just about to send out a mail
[07:48] <WillDWork> groovy :)
[07:49] <fsphil> I can't not hear that in Duke Nukem's voice
[07:49] <LazyLeopard> The Sun degrades the latex, making it weaker, but it still needs pressure to make it burst.
[07:49] <WillDWork> 'let's play' and all that fsphil
[07:49] <cipher_> OK.
[07:50] <MLow> or if you go up quickly enough it just pops
[07:50] <cipher_> So I'll try to figure out what I did wrong to underfill it.
[07:52] <MLow> did you use the calculator do figure out what neck lift you needed?
[07:53] <cipher_> http://i.imgur.com/uA1caGt.png
[07:53] <cipher_> OK, so the number in the red is neck lift, right?
[07:54] <amell> is your payload mass correct? did you include all the string, tape and cable ties in that figure?
[07:55] <MLow> 300g?
[07:55] <cipher_> Yes, I put the parachute and strings in the box and weighed it
[07:55] <WillDWork> and fill pipe?
[07:55] <daveake> Was it windy at the launch site?
[07:55] <amell> 300g seems a nice round figure&
[07:55] <cipher_> I know right
[07:56] <MLow> my phone is 200g.....
[07:56] <cipher_> spot trace is like 88 grams
[07:56] <cipher_> the gyroscope is 140 grams
[07:57] <cipher_> daveake, there was little wind
[07:57] <daveake> ok
[07:57] <amell> you included fill tube?
[07:58] <cipher_> no -_-
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[07:58] <cipher_> wouldnt that mean overfilling?
[07:59] <amell> no, underfilling,
[07:59] <cipher_> huh?
[07:59] <amell> because if you weigh the balloon with the fill tube attached, it will be heavier than it will be at launch.
[08:00] <cipher_> OK, give me some time
[08:01] <fsphil> if you measure it with the filler attached, and launch without, it would be overfilled
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[08:01] <amell> oh yeah
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[08:02] <cipher_> So the neck lift is 904 grams. If I don't take into account the filler weight, then at launch site attach a 904 gram bottle with a string to the filler and fill it until it floats both the filler and the 904 gram bottle, doesnt it mean I'm overfilling (904 grams + the weight of the filler)?
[08:03] <fsphil> yep
[08:03] <amell> yes.
[08:03] <amell> my bad
[08:03] <MLow> doesnt explain anything about what happened though does it
[08:03] <fsphil> I've underfilled before, and yea it can cause it to float for a bit
[08:04] <MLow> overfilled though?'
[08:04] <cipher_> ok
[08:04] <amell> you mentioned rain earlier?
[08:05] <cipher_> this is why I dont understand how I could possibly underfill it.
[08:05] <fsphil> it's easy to do
[08:05] <fsphil> just needs a bit of wind at the launch site
[08:06] <cipher_> fsphil, "for a bit"? Flight took 16 hours :(
[08:06] <fsphil> yea my accidental floats usually only lasted an hour or so
[08:06] <amell> cipher_: is there any chance it rained on the envelope? weight of water adds to payload.
[08:06] <fsphil> is it on spacenear cipher_?
[08:07] <cipher_> spacenear?
[08:07] <fsphil> http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[08:07] <Geoff-G8DHE-Lap> He only had the SPOT TRACKER
[08:07] <fsphil> ah
[08:07] <fsphil> no altitude then
[08:07] <cipher_> amell, very unlikely.
[08:08] <cipher_> Rain might have started 4-5 hours after launch. I left the predicted landing area then and there were rain clouds nearby
[08:09] <fsphil> there was on flight that got caught in some very odd weather for hours before it finally ascended properly
[08:09] <fsphil> though that's only ever been seen once
[08:09] <cipher_> maybe I got lucky
[08:10] <fsphil> one*
[08:10] <fsphil> without altitude data we'll never know sadly
[08:10] <amell> that was jededus strange bouncy flight
[08:10] <fsphil> definitly the oddest flight I've seen that one
[08:11] <fsphil> all I can think of was it was ice dragging it down
[08:11] <fsphil> then melting at the lower altitudes
[08:11] <fsphil> or snow
[08:11] <cipher_> hail?
[08:11] <fsphil> possibly yea
[08:11] <fsphil> lots of thunderstorms that day
[08:11] <fsphil> and tornados
[08:12] <cipher_> and no weather forecast?
[08:13] <fsphil> hail might have punctured the balloon though
[08:13] <daveake> That was a very strange flight. I tried a 100g floater a few days later and that came down still inflated :/
[08:13] <fsphil> someone should test that
[08:14] <mfa298> just read some of the scrollback
[08:14] <mfa298> 07:08 < cipher_> OK, so launch time (local) at 3:30 pm, landing on 7:02 am += 5 minutes
[08:14] <fsphil> oh landing after sunrise
[08:14] <mfa298> that sounds like normal latex float and burst at sunrise
[08:14] <fsphil> yea you totally floated
[08:14] <daveake> it does
[08:15] <cipher_> OK, I can throw the possibility of bad gas and overfilling then, thanks guys.
[08:15] <cipher_> And only possible problem is underfilling because of wind and very-very unlikely leakage?
[08:15] <cipher_> That's all right?
[08:16] <amell> faulty scales?
[08:16] <daveake> underfilling because of any number of reasons
[08:16] <amell> how accurate is your weighting. kitchen scales are surprisingly inaccurate
[08:16] <cipher_> amell: hm, actually could be :/
[08:17] <cipher_> I used a
[08:17] <cipher_> *drumroll*
[08:17] <cipher_> kitchen scale
[08:17] <amell> it doesnt matter when youre cooking, as its the proportions of ingredients that make the recipe
[08:17] <amell> easy to prove/disprove
[08:18] <cipher_> what should I use?
[08:18] <amell> a few known weights. say 50g 500g and 1000g
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[08:20] <cipher_> I thought they are accurate to +-1/2 grams. Then there are sub gram scales for jewelry, etc.
[08:20] <daveake> It's worthing testing the scales with a known weight
[08:20] <amell> daveake: are you doing this Lohan spaceplane project?
[08:20] <daveake> not involved now, no
[08:20] Nick change: Chetic_ -> Chetic
[08:20] <amell> Who is? i dont understand the rocket engine CE problem.
[08:20] <daveake> nobody from here afaik
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[08:21] <mfa298> amell: to answer your question last night, TV stuff tends to have a 75R impedance although I'm not sure I'd necessarily trust the cheap rtl devices to be 50 or 75, a difference like that shouldn't make a huge difference (I think it's a 1.5:1 SWR which most people would treat as acceptable)
[08:21] <cipher_> OK, Ill test the scale with a weigh too. Thanks for the hint, amell
[08:21] <amell> mfa298: thanks for that.
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[08:22] <WillDWork> shame dave - now they've gone to the US - could have got a nice trip out of that
[08:22] <amell> I honestly think this no CE for longburn motors is bollocks, I have two in my garage.
[08:23] <mfa298> I've not had issues like that with kitchen scales (although I've not really tested any) but I've had bathroom scales outright lie to me (not in a good way) and they were reasonably modern ones.
[08:23] <amell> Im suspicious of the reasoning behind the move to america instead of spain.
[08:23] <daveake> mfa298 They *all* do that to me :/
[08:24] <mfa298> these ones were suggesting I'd put on a lot of weight over night (not just the general lie they all give)
[08:24] <amell> but on the other hand, who would have imagined a B flight would casually float round the world three times.
[08:25] <cipher_> hm, if the balloon doesnt burst completely, its not likely to act as "extra parachute" or something right?
[08:25] <daveake> It can, but again that wouldn't explain what happened
[08:26] <cipher_> right, right, went west
[08:29] <MLow> anyone heard of these guys? http://www.pawanexport.com/
[08:29] <cipher_> Arent they the guys who make Pawan balloons?
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[08:35] <MLow> yes
[08:35] <MLow> wondering if the balloons are any good
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[08:35] <cipher_> I've got few
[08:36] <cipher_> The balloon calc here has option for them and Steve sells them so I guess they are good.
[08:36] <cipher_> Packaging is nice.
[08:36] <MLow> all i see is pawan 1200
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[08:37] <cipher_> Flew 2 with gsm trackers (my first flights). Can't tell how good they are because the payloads were lost, but flew until I couldn't see them and the gsm signal was lost.
[08:37] <cipher_> Pawan 600 is out of stock I think
[08:38] <MLow> im sure they will fly
[08:38] <MLow> curious how to go about fitting one into the burst calculator
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[08:45] <MLow> found a paper comparent totex and pawan 350 gram balloons
[08:46] <cipher_> email them about their burst altitudes
[08:47] <cipher_> pawan 600 is 28000 meters
[08:47] <cipher_> put that in the calculator
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[08:50] <daveake> What you need is their burst *diameter* not altitude
[08:50] <daveake> feed that into the calculation
[08:53] <cipher_> This calculator? http://habhub.org/calc/
[08:54] <cipher_> If I choose the balloon type, payload mass and altitude I get the neck lift
[08:58] <RocketBoy> the calculator on the bottom of this page has a wider range of balloons included http://randomaerospace.com/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[08:59] <cipher_> hadn't seen it strangely, thanks.
[09:00] <cipher_> BTW, I see it isnt hard to underfill. How easy it is to overfill? How easy it is to overfill to cause a 2-3 km difference in burst altitude, in your opinions?
[09:01] <RocketBoy> assuming your measuring fill by neck lift then its easy to under/overfill if outside in windy conditions
[09:02] Action: SpeedEvil remembers the balloon that went down on release.
[09:02] <RocketBoy> in such conditions just take your time to judge is tf the balloon is neutrally boyant
[09:03] <SpeedEvil> Problem is that a restrained balloon in wind does not have zero lift
[09:03] <RocketBoy> i remember a balloon that was underfilled - and dragged the payload alond the ground
[09:03] <RocketBoy> then it hit a power line
[09:03] <cipher_> oh...
[09:03] <nats`> I can support for lora RX if balloon goes by france
[09:03] <RocketBoy> then it was paulled over the power line
[09:04] <nats`> just tell me in advance if you launch a floater with that tech
[09:04] <RocketBoy> then it was dragged along the ground some more
[09:04] <RocketBoy> then over another power line
[09:04] <RocketBoy> then some more dragging until a ditch and bush and managed to capture it
[09:04] <cipher_> OK...
[09:05] <cipher_> Wind hasnt confused me that much yet. What do you think the difference can be for burst altitude from overfilling?
[09:05] <RocketBoy> cought it before it reached a main road about 1mile from where it was released
[09:05] <cipher_> *typically
[09:05] <daveake> cheers nats`
[09:06] <nats`> hi daveake :)
[09:06] <daveake> RocketBoy Sounds exciting :p
[09:06] <RocketBoy> depends on how much you overfill
[09:06] <RocketBoy> it was - well it certainly got the adrenalin going
[09:07] <daveake> :)
[09:07] <RocketBoy> not one of mine I might hasen to add - but I was there
[09:07] <daveake> Yes I remember you telling me about it :)
[09:08] <jcoxon> oi oi
[09:08] <RocketBoy> basically - never underfill to the point it wont lift off
[09:08] <cipher_> well if there's little wind and the helium is stopped as I notice the balloon and filler tryingto ascend, what do you think the difference can be?
[09:08] <jcoxon> thankfully there was a prickly hedge
[09:08] <cipher_> (if the balloon started ascending steadily upon release)
[09:09] <RocketBoy> that launch is etched in my memeory
[09:10] <jcoxon> mine too
[09:10] <RocketBoy> a few 100g of lift maybe
[09:10] <jcoxon> looking at the map the emfcamp launch from yesterday is quite near to a tracking station
[09:10] <jcoxon> was there any mention of recovery?
[09:10] <daveake> That one of Upu's at Elsworth looked like it was going to get stuck in that tree half a mile away
[09:11] <RocketBoy> yeah - I remember that well too
[09:11] <jcoxon> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wZW7_4p98k
[09:11] <RocketBoy> sort of just made it over some trees
[09:12] <UpuWork> lol
[09:12] <UpuWork> sort of
[09:12] <daveake> I reckon that longer antenna just brushed the tree
[09:13] <UpuWork> it was miles away no worries :)
[09:13] <number10> spectacular balloon fail
[09:13] <UpuWork> the 1.5km high mountain that got in the way was the problem
[09:14] <daveake> 1.8km
[09:15] <UpuWork> that too
[09:15] <daveake> Landing altitude within metres of the one I did in Spain
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[09:16] <cipher_> BTW, anyone used plexiglass on their payloads and can tell me how durable they are and how thick they should be?
[09:17] <UpuWork> for what ?
[09:18] <LazyLeopard> If you use it for a window you'll likely get frost on it.
[09:18] <LazyLeopard> Ideal thicknes, 0mm. ;)
[09:18] <UpuWork> yeah don't use it
[09:19] <cipher_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS42F82aGW8
[09:19] <cipher_> for connecting the toy to the box
[09:20] <RocketBoy> that was one of mine
[09:20] <cipher_> nice one
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[09:22] <RocketBoy> https://www.flickr.com/photos/16828840@N07/sets/72157635949455475/
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[09:23] <cipher_> niice
[09:23] <RocketBoy> note the forrest on the other side of the road
[09:24] <cipher_> so thought for using plexiglass for that? if not good idea, why? And other options? Thanks!
[09:25] <RocketBoy> which would you prefer to be hit over the head with - plexiglass or bulsawood?
[09:25] <UpuWork> did you film that coming in ?
[09:25] <UpuWork> cipher_ don't use it, will just steam up
[09:25] <cipher_> ok, what then?
[09:26] <UpuWork> fresh air
[09:26] <UpuWork> nothing
[09:26] <UpuWork> a hole
[09:26] <UpuWork> nada
[09:26] <UpuWork> oh power cables too RocketBoy
[09:26] <UpuWork> it missed those and the forrest ?
[09:27] <cipher_> I mean the thing to attach the toy to, not for a window, guys
[09:27] <UpuWork> oh yeah nothing spikey and hard
[09:27] <UpuWork> sorry misunderstood
[09:27] <cipher_> no prob
[09:28] <cipher_> OK. I mean what thickness plexiglass to not fracture, etc.
[09:28] <gonzo__> or heavy, and put something padded around it all
[09:28] <UpuWork> you want it to break if it hits something just tie a cord up it so if it does break you still have your item
[09:28] <daveake> yup
[09:28] <RocketBoy> UpuWork: i have a photo of it landing somewhere
[09:29] <LazyLeopard> I'd have thought balsa wood (or similar) would be better?
[09:29] <LazyLeopard> ...to hold a toy out at some distance from the camera you (presumably) want to photograph it with?
[09:30] <RocketBoy> thats typically what i use - or polystyrene
[09:30] <RocketBoy> paper reinforced polystyreene can be quite rigid
[09:33] <gonzo__> you may be able to lighten up the toy/item too.
[09:35] <UpuWork> oh if you want MAX8's there are in stock now
[09:35] <UpuWork> RFM modules later this week
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[09:42] <WillDWork> I'm guessing the MAX8's are better than the 7's UpuWork
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[09:42] <UpuWork> well
[09:43] <UpuWork> "better" is a subjective term
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[09:45] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BALYOLO - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?filter=BALYOLO
[09:46] <UpuWork> they do concurrent GLONASS
[09:46] <UpuWork> I don't think there is much else thats different
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[09:47] <WillDWork> ah ok - cheers, no need to worry too much then
[09:47] <UpuWork> power usage seems about the same as the MAX7 and they do seem to lock slightly quicker, possibly because of the extra "network"
[09:47] <MLow> alright
[09:48] <UpuWork> its drop in
[09:48] <MLow> i've finally got it decoding with the rtlsdr woo
[09:49] <MLow> http://goo.gl/2UcfJE not sure how to connect all the bits more permanantly tho
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> MLow: :)
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> MLow: spray with hot-glue
[09:51] <MLow> plausable
[09:51] <MLow> i was thinking about making a pcb for it
[09:55] <MLow> u know i was thinking
[09:56] <MLow> whats some good data to log while up there
[09:56] <MLow> or is everyone just all about pictures or the challenge
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[10:04] <gonzo__> everyone has different interests in hab
[10:06] <fsphil> fly a telescope
[10:07] <lz1dev> or a flish
[10:07] <lz1dev> fish
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[10:12] <MLow> just wondering to myself i guess what would be interesting to do
[10:13] <gonzo__> whatever you want, as long as it's safe and legal
[10:14] <jededu> UpuWork the order is in
[10:16] <MLow> i mean its a tad early to be thinking about that stuff seeing as i dont really have much done yet
[10:16] <MLow> still looking into how to power everything, looking at boost regulators
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[10:20] <UpuWork> thx jededu
[10:21] <UpuWork> and dispatched
[10:21] <UpuWork> :)
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[10:27] <fsphil> how's that for service
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[10:31] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/jd26Ks0.png
[10:35] <MLow> tastefull
[10:37] <lz1dev> #realbeauty
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[10:42] <MLow> http://www.pololu.com/product/798 this seems too good to be true
[10:45] <daveake> "generates 5 V from voltages as low as 0.8 V"
[10:46] <daveake> Not with any meaningful current it doesn't
[10:47] <lz1dev> just get supercap
[10:47] <lz1dev> its manly
[10:50] <MLow> well it says 200ma
[10:50] <SpeedEvil> At what efficiency
[10:50] <MLow> 70-80% from the looks of it
[10:51] <SpeedEvil> At 0.8v?
[10:51] <MLow> yeah, closer to mid 90s with higher voltage
[10:51] <BrainDamage> http://b.pololu-files.com/picture/0J4293.1200.png?426ee73613a1f9ef93052ce980149977
[10:51] <BrainDamage> you're limited to 50mA output at 0.8V
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[10:52] Nick change: Baz -> Guest87625
[10:52] <MLow> well i posted to learn if it was any good :)
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[10:56] <MLow> this one actually looks better
[10:56] <MLow> http://www.pololu.com/product/2564
[11:00] <MLow> the images coming in from LORA2 looks like my desk :S
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[11:03] <fsphil> oh no he's found out!
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[11:11] <Maxell> haha
[11:12] <Maxell> HAB on a secret mission
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[11:33] <cm13g09> those who were at EMF, how was it?
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[11:53] <jededu> ping lzldev
[11:54] <jededu> ping upuwork
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[11:59] <UpuWork> hi jededu
[11:59] <jededu> pm
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[12:31] <myier> MLow: I used the NCP1402 to power an arduino uno + ublox + BMP180 + 2 1-wire dallas temperature sensors + NTX2B + SD shield with 2 AA lithium for more than 10 hours
[12:31] <myier> for short flights it does its job
[12:32] <myier> you just have to think about the time needed for the output voltage to get stable when you draw current, like 1.5s after switching on the NTX2B
[12:33] <myier> I also have the second product you linked, but its efficiency is even worse
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[12:34] <myier> also, the more the batteries go low, the less efficient the converter is, so the higher current is required. It means that when the batteries get bad, it's over
[12:34] <myier> depending on what you are powering with the converter of course
[12:35] <myier> With 3V it was around 250mA drawn from the 2 AAs, with a 2V level it was around 850mA with no stable output voltage
[12:37] <gonzo__> I think we have all been around that loop. I ended up settling on 3xAAA and a 3v ldo reg, as being the simplest solution (and less to go wrong). As the lithuim batts have a reasonably sharp knee in the dischare curve. So there is little power left to scavenge at lower batt voltages
[12:38] <gonzo__> and the efficiency of switchers is not much different from the limear regs at those sorts of voltages
[12:38] <gonzo__> (voltage differentials I mean)
[12:39] <daveake> yup
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[12:49] <myier> are there any switching converters that work with lower tensions? or any other high efficiency step-up converters?
[12:50] <myier> some sensors don't like voltages below 3 or 2.7V, it's hard to rely only on batteries
[12:50] <myier> the goal being to avoid adding the third 1.5Vbattery
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[12:57] <gonzo__> 3batts is 4.5V and the knww on lithiums is around 1.3v each. So that still gives 600mv head for the LDO
[12:58] <gonzo__> (sailing a bit close to the wind for an MC1702, but doable)
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[12:59] <gonzo__> the problem with lower voltage inpout on switchers is that the efficiency is not great.
[13:00] <myier> ok
[13:00] <gonzo__> It may be to do with the V drop on the diode ir the poor Ron of the switchjing fet? Sure someone will jump in and correct me
[13:01] <myier> I have no idea
[13:01] <SpeedEvil> That, increased inductor current too
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[13:01] <gonzo__> I've not done a great deal with switching regs, so guessing
[13:02] <gonzo__> ta SpeedEvil
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[14:45] <amell> Is buzz lightyear going to near space?
[14:46] <fsphil> I would like to define near-space as being >= 50 km and < 100km
[14:46] <fsphil> who's with me? :)
[14:47] <Maxell> fsphil: you go reach that altitude first. :P
[14:47] <myier> or between 95 and 100
[14:47] <fsphil> nah, once you've got to 50km you're half way
[14:47] <fsphil> that's near
[14:47] <myier> ok you got me convinced, I'm with you
[14:47] <fsphil> nearer space than the ground anyway
[14:48] <fsphil> yay!
[14:48] <fsphil> new challange for LeoBodnar
[14:48] <myier> haha
[14:48] <myier> rockoons!
[14:51] <amell> already done
[14:51] <amell> sad here at the lack of new Bs
[14:52] <myier> B-63 is considered dead speaking of which?
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[14:53] <SpeedEvil> myier: likely
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[14:57] <arjun_> Hi
[14:57] <Maxell> Hello
[14:58] <arjun_> Which rope can I use for the payload and balloon
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[14:59] <tweetBot1> @jamescoxon: I've got a new website: http://t.co/yobQPLgF9q - collection of my presentations and projects #ukhas #ukhasnet #hamr - check it out
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[15:05] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03BUZZ - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?filter=BUZZ
[15:12] <daveake> arjun_ Soething like 1.5mm diameter braided nylon
[15:12] <daveake> http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Stuff.html
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[15:13] <lz1dev> !whereis b-64
[15:13] <SpacenearUS> 03lz1dev: 03B-64 is over 03Division No. 18, SK, Canada 10(54.6115,-104.1488) at 0312170 meters
[15:14] <lz1dev> good ol' division n 18
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[15:24] <Maxell> !isleoflying
[15:24] <Maxell> booo!
[15:24] <lz1dev> !exterminate Maxell
[15:25] <fsphil> !regenerate doctor
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[15:28] <arjun_> daveake: Thanks, also for your launches where about on the payload box do you place the cameras
[15:29] <daveake> Depends where they need to point, but somewhere at the bottom generally
[15:30] <arjun_> daveake thanks
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[15:40] <Laurenceb> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAeXl7hZnx4
[15:49] <Maxell> Laurenceb: wow, i have an app for that
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[15:59] <arjun_> daveake : How much does the Pi in the Sky kit weigh
[16:01] <daveake> The board is 25g
[16:01] <daveake> Dunno about the GPS antenna but you can reduce that by removing the magnet
[16:03] <arjun_> thanks
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[16:29] <Laurenceb> arg
[16:29] Action: Laurenceb had forgotten how much he hates matlab
[16:30] <Laurenceb> everything about it is horrible
[16:30] <Laurenceb> just looking at it gives me eye strain
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[16:35] <mattbrejza> so i herd you liek 1-based arrays
[16:36] <Laurenceb> heh
[16:36] <Laurenceb> all the hotkeys are custom
[16:36] <Laurenceb> wtf
[16:36] <Laurenceb> the tabs are weird
[16:37] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03LORA1 - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?filter=LORA1
[16:37] <mattbrejza> its more of a fancy calculator rather than something you want to do some serious programming
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[16:37] <mattbrejza> not that its used like that
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[16:46] <Laurenceb> its used for _everything_ at work
[16:46] <Laurenceb> even GUIs for customers
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[16:55] <matfu2> Hi, is anyone here experienced with using solar panels on high altitude balloons?
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[16:57] <bertrik> matfu2: yes, LeoBodnar uses them on his floaters
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[16:59] <matfu2> Ah thanks
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[17:00] <malgar> !whereis b-66
[17:00] <SpacenearUS> 03malgar: 03B-66 was over 03Kalmansky District, Altayskiy kray, Russia 10(53.0078,83.0759) at 0313472 meters about 034 days ago
[17:00] <malgar> !whereis b-64
[17:00] <SpacenearUS> 03malgar: 03B-64 was over 03Division No. 18, SK, Canada 10(54.7209,-103.6431) at 0312180 meters about 0341 minutes ago
[17:01] <matfu2> LeoBodnar, could I ask you a few questions about how you use the solar panels?
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[17:17] <Laurenceb> at java.awt.event.InvocationEvent.dispatch(Unknown Source) at java.awt.EventQueue.dispatchEvent(Unknown Source) at java.awt.EventDispatchThread.pumpOneEventForFilters(Unknown
[17:17] <Laurenceb> hell yeah matlab
[17:21] <Laurenceb> "matlab has encountered an internal error"
[17:21] <Laurenceb> yeah it exists
[17:26] <Laurenceb> todays lesson: matlab needs >6GB ram to run
[17:28] <mfa298> damn, how did we ever cope when I did my degree and 0.6GB of ram was extravagant.
[17:28] <SpeedEvil> Abacus?
[17:28] <mfa298> then again 0.0006 GB should be enough for anyone
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[17:36] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[17:38] <SpeedEvil> hey
[17:39] <ScottM85> Finally figured out why I couldn't get the ublox gps module to return anything, had transmit and receive wires swapped around...doh
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[17:43] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[18:23] <w1wt> not much going on here??
[18:24] <SHARP-SATS> Yes, quiet at this time.
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[18:25] <w1wt> very much so. We just broke our altitude record 122,000 feet
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[18:27] <SHARP-SATS> Super. Were are you? Call sign?
[18:28] <w1wt> W1WT Bangor Maine
[18:29] <w1wt> Balloon was N1ME-7. Switched to hydrogen from Helium
[18:33] <SHARP-SATS> I found you in QRZ.com - but not otherwise. When was the flight?
[18:33] <aadamson> w1wt, you sure that was the callsign, it hasn't flown in 27 days and then as only -11, whereas ab1om-11 flew today
[18:33] <aadamson> to 123k
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[18:34] <w1wt> that one was last weekend. 2 gopro onboard on several gps/aprs also working on hf rtty
[18:35] <aadamson> which one?
[18:35] <aadamson> ab1om-11 few 3 hrs ago - http://www.s3research.com/flightdata/
[18:35] <w1wt> You may see kd1om not ab1om-11
[18:35] <w1wt> yes we went up today at 8am
[18:35] <aadamson> http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=11&call=a%2FAB1OM-11&timerange=3600&tail=3600
[18:35] <aadamson> so I'm still totally confused
[18:36] <aadamson> what flew today on aprs.fi was ab1om-11
[18:36] <aadamson> there isn't an n1me-7 that's ever flown
[18:36] <aadamson> and the last n1me that few was -11 27 days ago
[18:36] <w1wt> n1me yes has flown
[18:36] <aadamson> http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=11&call=a%2FN1ME&timerange=3600&tail=3600 - with aprs?
[18:37] <aadamson> http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=11&call=a%2FN1ME-11&timerange=3600&tail=3600
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[18:37] <w1wt> yes and has on board 2 mtr repeater
[18:38] <w1wt> have had contacts from NY abt 400 miles on 2 mtrs
[18:38] <aadamson> ok... so I guess I'm to understand that the callsign of the flight today was *NOT* n1me-7 (at least not via aprs) and that the callsign was ab1om-11 that few today to 123k ft with aprs
[18:39] <w1wt> yes.. call sign may have chnged today. Several transmitters on board. We had one on 20mtrs rtty sevral weeks ago n1me wnet to 102k.
[18:41] <aadamson> ah, ok, that now makes sense
[18:41] <aadamson> you guys also flew an evening *floater* I think a week or so ago?
[18:41] <aadamson> pm btw
[18:42] <w1wt> No not yet, but we are working on a floater. Project with Univ of Maine
[18:42] <aadamson> ah, maybe it was them that I saw..
[18:42] <aadamson> it was a really late launch, maybe 11pm edt
[18:42] <aadamson> and I noticed that by morning it appeared the batteries had died it appeared
[18:43] <w1wt> Yep night launch had an on board strobe. thought we would get calls on that but no...nothing.
[18:43] <aadamson> hehe
[18:43] <aadamson> curious if you can see the PM messages that I sent you?
[18:44] <w1wt> Want to do a long floater over the atlantic..but much more work to do on that
[18:44] <w1wt> no no message
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[18:45] <aadamson> ok, maybe your client doesn't support it... no worries
[18:45] <aadamson> hehe, you change your call recently?
[18:46] <w1wt> yes, was wu9p
[18:46] <aadamson> I finally stopped using my ham call as email addresses, as it was too big of a pita due to me changing mine
[18:46] <aadamson> n1daq->kb1oc->ne1h->n1ip->w7qo :)
[18:46] <w1wt> wow thats a lot o changes
[18:47] <aadamson> well, that's over more than 25 years too :)
[18:47] <aadamson> everything up to n1ip was issued, n1ip and w7qo were/are vanity
[18:47] <w1wt> understand. I sticking with this one. Really good on cw
[18:48] <w1wt> so are you in 7 land now?
[18:49] <aadamson> no, from there originally, live in Atlanta, now
[18:49] <aadamson> was first licensed however from hartford, CT
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[18:49] <aadamson> and lived there up through the ne1h call when I got my extra
[18:50] <aadamson> just sent you an email btw :)
[18:50] <w1wt> Ah hotlanta.. used to live in JAX fl. Moved here to maine several years back. Having beautiful summer this year. mid 80s now
[18:51] <aadamson> yeah hotlanta is right... 97 and 74% humitidy yesterday :)... yuck!
[18:52] <w1wt> yep familiar with it. Although winter here last year was worst ever..wicked bad..many gave it up and moved away this year.
[18:53] <aadamson> yeah I can appreciate that... I grew up in eastern utah and it would routinely be -20 below due to inversion... 2000 feet up the mountians it would be 40... not real interested in living there anytime soon :)
[18:53] <w1wt> sorry see no email yet
[18:54] <aadamson> k, let me see where it was sent too, maybe the email was an old one
[18:54] <w1wt> -20 huh... now thats sick
[18:54] <aadamson> ioc address?
[18:54] <w1wt> yep that works.. ioc..com
[18:55] <aadamson> it had some links to check your spam may have ended up there
[18:55] <aadamson> s/to/so
[18:55] <w1wt> just did ..not there
[18:56] <aadamson> well, bizzare... let me try from my other email address...
[18:56] <w1wt> w1wt@
[18:56] <aadamson> ok... i'll try that too
[18:57] <aadamson> ok, you may get in triplicate :)
[18:57] <aadamson> sent from my gmail and my hotmail :)
[18:57] <w1wt> ha ! nice !
[18:57] <w1wt> checking now
[18:57] <aadamson> k
[18:59] <w1wt> yes..bizarre..nothing in junk trash or inbox yet. Couple other thiings but all spam..even today ..go figure
[19:00] <aadamson> well, let me try one last thing... curious however
[19:00] <w1wt> now im curious
[19:00] <aadamson> let me try something without links... hang on
[19:01] <aadamson> ok, quickie sent with just test message in title and nothing useful in content :)
[19:01] <w1wt> k..standby
[19:02] <aadamson> to w1wt@
[19:03] <w1wt> correct address.. ah just came in
[19:03] <aadamson> all, or test?
[19:03] <w1wt> test
[19:03] <Latobius> w1wt: Achievement unlocked: you have joined #ukhasnet
[19:04] <aadamson> hehe, have no idea what that is...
[19:04] <craag_philcrump> mfa298: ? ^^^
[19:04] <aadamson> test
[19:04] <Latobius> aadamson: Achievement unlocked: you have joined #ukhasnet
[19:04] <craag_philcrump> It's a bot
[19:04] <aadamson> figured that was the keyword it was looking for
[19:04] <aadamson> yeah figured that much
[19:04] <craag_philcrump> a slightly buggy one...
[19:05] <aadamson> :)
[19:05] <aadamson> no bugs... only features :)
[19:05] <w1wt> so triggers on t e s t?
[19:05] <craag_philcrump> yeah
[19:05] <craag_philcrump> looks like it
[19:05] <Upu> does it need to be here now ?
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[19:05] <mfa298> I should probably shift the bot back to only be in #ukhasnet
[19:05] Action: Upu changes his nick to grumpy pants
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[19:06] <w1wt> sent you reply
[19:06] <aadamson> kk... this will be interesting :)
[19:08] <aadamson> got it and replied, will be curious if you get that reply?
[19:08] <w1wt> checking
[19:11] <w1wt> yes got links. That is a new device they are working on.. have not actually seen that on board. The balloon shown is not the actual baloons flying..Much much bigger!
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[19:12] <aadamson> ah, was curious... I've seen that in the description a few times lately so wondered...
[19:13] <w1wt> been using arduinos with gps on board and 2 and 440 xmtrs
[19:14] <aadamson> http://www.engadget.com/2014/08/29/google-project-loon-balloons-retrieval-video/
[19:14] <w1wt> that is Unif of Maine High Altitude Balloon project.
[19:15] <w1wt> Ok got your msg. With bcast link..working now!!
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[19:16] <aadamson> ah good
[19:19] <w1wt> Hmmm project Loon..very interesting..amazing what one can do when one can tap big bucks
[19:19] <w1wt> gonna show that at club next week
[19:20] <jcoxon> hehe, might have known that already
[19:20] <jcoxon> (thanks UKHAS Conference)
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[19:26] <w1wt> yikes..just watched that vid. Thats some serious doing there
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[20:02] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03tttttest_chase - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?filter=tttttest_chase
[20:03] Action: fsphil resists
[20:04] <malgar> !whereis b-64
[20:04] <SpacenearUS> 03malgar: 03B-64 was over 03Division No. 18, SK, Canada 10(54.9006,-102.7709) at 0312165 meters about 032 hours ago
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[20:14] <MarkB_> Hi, anyone around just now?
[20:14] <Upu> always
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[20:16] <MarkB_> How you doing? I'm getting close to gathering all I need for my first launch. Logger complete, telemetry working and tested. I need to do some more 'reliability' checks first before I launch though. One thing I would like some advice on is helium regulators / valves and supplies. I've looked at teh UKHAS site but that info is a little old. The ineternet has lots of helium sellers but,,, which one??
[20:17] <daveake> The cheapest
[20:17] <daveake> UK ?
[20:19] <MarkB_> Hi Dave. Yep, I agree. I'm more conecrned to get a regulator which is suitable for a balloon of a couple of meters volume i.e. has a gas flow that doesn't just dribble out of the end for small paryt balloons. I live in the UK, just a couple of miles from the Elsworth site.
[20:19] <Upu> Either Air Products or BOC
[20:19] <RocketBoy> The air products clyinders have a integral regulator
[20:19] <MarkB_> Hi Upu. Thanks. DO they have a standard connector or, does BOC use a different connector to everyone else?
[20:19] <daveake> I've used http://balloonhelium.co.uk/
[20:20] <daveake> dunno if anyone is cheaper now
[20:20] <daveake> You should get a regulator/valve with the cylinder
[20:20] <Upu> they'll supply a ...what daveake said
[20:20] <Upu> Hydrogen is slightly different
[20:21] <MarkB_> OK. Do the bottles come with a suitable regulator? My only experience of buying gas is for MIG welding and I have to use my own regulators.
[20:21] <daveake> <daveake> You should get a regulator/valve with the cylinder
[20:21] <Upu> helium ones generally yes
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[20:22] <daveake> I think I saved a whole £5 by refusing the regulator/valve thing last time :)
[20:22] <MarkB_> Hahaha, OK, I get it. Can I just check that the gas flow is reasonable?
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[20:28] <MarkB_> Fellas, I'll contact the suppliers you mentioned above for quotes. Thanks again for the steer. 73s
[20:29] <daveake> Yes gas flow is fine
[20:29] <daveake> The regulators either have a rigid plastic outlet or a flexible plastic one
[20:30] <MarkB_> Ack, thanks.
[20:30] <daveake> I've only used the former but I think most people use the latter
[20:30] <daveake> Either way you need to use something to attach your hose to it
[20:30] <daveake> e.g hose clip, tape, polypropylene adhesive, will power, all the above
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[20:32] <MarkB_> Steve R showed me the one he made and has placed on the UKHAS site; my intent is to replicate that first.
[20:33] <daveake> Good plan
[20:33] <daveake> Steve's fillers bestest fillers
[20:34] <MarkB_> He's an inspiring fella too. Kindly allowed me to observe a launch - I learnt loads.
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[20:39] <amell> MarkB_: Ah, you enjoyed the pleasure of Elsworth facilities too ? :)
[20:40] <amell> my main issue is that you cant see the dog crap in the long grass.
[20:41] <MarkB_> Hi amell, yes. Ah, I missed that (I hope). I thought the big plastic sheet was to protect the balloon from sharp edges, not.....
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[20:45] <amell> when did you observe at Elsworth?
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[20:46] <MarkB_> Well over a month ago. Not any of Steve's recent launches. Sadly my day job gets in the way of fun.
[20:47] <amell> yeah, i live a mile down the road from Elsworth, so pop over when I can.
[20:47] <MarkB_> I'm in St Ives (Cambs not Cornwall)
[20:47] <amell> ho. I am in Hilton.
[20:48] <MarkB_> How about that? We go riding to Monarch Farm every Sunday
[20:48] <amell> and thats even more down the road :)
[20:48] <amell> Youll need to let me know when you launch.
[20:49] <MarkB_> Roger. What's the best way to pass contact details? Through the HAS mailing list?
[20:49] <amell> will pm you email address.
[20:49] <MarkB_> Ack
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[20:51] <simium> evening... we're preparing a launch this weekend (night launch, third in a row) and the people managing the APRS have stepped out
[20:51] <simium> #firstworldproblems
[20:53] <jcoxon> eek
[20:53] <amell> simium: what country you in?
[20:53] <simium> Spain
[20:54] <simium> we're lucky cause my payload is only doing SSDV and I'll refurbish it to be a tracker too, but in the 70cm band
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[20:54] <amell> why do you need people to manage APRS ?
[20:55] <simium> cause the rest of the team doesn't have a HAM license
[20:55] <simium> they had their callsign and the tracker
[20:55] <amell> Ah.
[20:55] <simium> we don't have a) HAM license b) APRS tracker
[20:56] <simium> also, we don't have HAM operators on the ground to listen to the payload
[20:56] <gonzo_> what country?
[20:56] <simium> Spain :)
[20:57] <jcoxon> simium, you have time to recruit listeners on 70cm
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[20:57] <jcoxon> for a licence exempt flight
[20:57] <simium> I'll upload the payload info to spacenear.us just in case someone can track it from Europe or other parts of Spain
[20:57] <gonzo_> 70cm is pretty good. You should get signals to the horizon, with reasonable rx kit
[20:57] <jcoxon> simium, email the list - there are people on there who can help
[20:58] <daveake> If you announce, you should get some trackers though not many
[20:58] <simium> I have a good enough yagi and a funcube dongle, I've tested it up to 5 km as it was in the room next door
[20:58] <daveake> You may get some in Portugal or France close enough, depending where you are and how high it gets
[20:58] <simium> Aragon, just under the Pyrinees
[20:58] <simium> around Zaragoza
[20:59] <amell> you might get a tracker from Bordeux who frequents here...
[21:00] <simium> I think we can do pretty good just with the yagi (not a windy weekend ahead, luckily), but we accept all the help available
[21:00] <simium> and you might get good enough live pictures of the sunrise
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[21:13] <simium> amell jcoxon thanks for the spirits!
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[21:17] <fsphil> sunrise/sets do look pretty amazing up there
[21:17] <SpacenearUS> New vehicle on the map: 03SP9RQA - 12http://habhub.org/mt/?filter=SP9RQA
[21:18] <amell> why has LeoBodnar gone quiet? Does he require regeneration?
[21:19] <jcoxon> amell, he lives, i saw him on saturday
[21:19] <amell> How many free pints did he get?
[21:19] <fsphil> they didn't go all wickerman at emfcamp?
[21:20] <jcoxon> habville was very sophisticated
[21:20] <amell> fsphil: burning an effigy of Leobodnar? :)
[21:20] <fsphil> it did look great. wish I could've been there
[21:20] <jcoxon> its a bit of unusual place
[21:20] <amell> do pics exist? would llike to see.
[21:26] <simium> fsphil we hope so... your ssdv code will be up there fyi :D
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[23:38] <MLow> wish there was more activity where i am i'd love to observe a launch and the tracking/etc in person to get a bit more confidence
[00:00] --- Tue Sep 2 2014