highaltitude.log.20140811

[00:12] <gurgalof> SpeedEvil: Sweden, we have to pay a large fee for any balloon at any size
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[00:50] <SDSpike> yo
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[05:31] Nick change: jaymzx -> jaymzx_away
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[05:39] <jcoxon> B66 is back as well
[05:39] <jcoxon> managed to skip past europe
[05:41] <arko> woah weird
[05:42] <jcoxon> must of gone through africa
[05:42] <arko> yyeah
[05:42] <jcoxon> strange that B-63 hasn't reappeared over japan
[05:42] <arko> yeah
[05:42] <arko> wonder if it stopped transmitting for some reason
[05:42] <jcoxon> hopefully the b-66 back log will give some clues
[05:43] <arko> heh yeah, neat feature
[05:43] <arko> time to get some sleep after packing
[05:43] <arko> i just hope the airline wont bother me about my carry on being 0.8cm too long
[05:44] <jcoxon> if you can squash it in to the box all is good
[05:44] <arko> sweet
[05:44] <jcoxon> (*cage that they have at the checkin desk
[05:44] <arko> woo, works for me, its squishy
[05:50] <arko> my clothes selection has been very mixed
[05:51] <arko> shorts/tshirt and like 2 pairs of jeans and a jacket
[05:51] <arko> lets hope it doesnt freeze but i'd really like it to not be 100F like it's been here
[05:52] <arko> time to catch some zzzzz's, nite
[05:57] <jcoxon> night
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[06:25] <madmax34> GM all. Looks like B-66 alives, now on Black Sea !! ...(?)
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[06:49] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[06:50] <SpeedEvil> How the hell did it manage that?
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[06:50] <SpeedEvil> Three successful sequential circumnavigations!
[06:51] <andyfletcher> all three have now circumnavigated
[06:52] <andyfletcher> I do wonder if B64 will reappear in some unexpected location
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[06:55] <f5opv> hi everybody: have you an explanation about m0xer-6 disappearing frm canada to crimea ?
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[07:06] <SpeedEvil> A) It died and woke up again
[07:06] <SpeedEvil> B) It went an unexpected route and missed all ground stations
[07:07] <SpeedEvil> The backlog - in principle should tell us something about the last 5 days
[07:09] <SpeedEvil> But it's at the moment at the very edge of coverage to a station in turkey
[07:10] <f5opv> Tks SpeedEvil
[07:11] <f5opv> which way backlog is transmitted: uhf channel contestia ?
[07:13] <SpeedEvil> APRS
[07:13] <SpeedEvil> There are some APRS stations in eastern russia which it's not unlikely to hit
[07:15] <f5opv> Binary APRS comments i suppose ?
[07:15] <SpeedEvil> And following that - it seems likely to be picked up in china
[07:16] <SpeedEvil> It likely overflies Beijing on the 14th
[07:17] <f5opv> ok, tks for ur explanations
[07:17] <SpeedEvil> http://aprs.fi/telemetry/a/M0XER-6
[07:18] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[07:19] <SpeedEvil> I was about to comment that battery voltage looked unusually low - but it's not really atypical of the last week
[07:20] <SpeedEvil> http://aprs.fi/telemetry/a/M0XER-6?range=month
[07:21] <SpeedEvil> at leat superficially, the cycles of a week ago look similar to the cycles of a month ago
[07:22] <f5opv> it seems CPU is still working at 2.6v, isn't it ?
[07:23] <SpeedEvil> Though the battery is cycling to a _lot_ lower voltage than 4 or 6
[07:24] <SpeedEvil> yes
[07:25] <SpeedEvil> I think i tmay shut down just after that though
[07:27] <f5opv> Batt type is Li-ion ?
[07:28] <craag_philcrump> LiPo
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[07:28] <craag_philcrump> The CPU runs on 2.0V regulated down iirc
[07:29] <craag_philcrump> But it'll be switched off before it gets that low to protect the battery
[07:29] <f5opv> qsl
[07:29] <MaXimaN> The cold is probably helping to protect the chemistry of the cell also
[07:29] <f5opv> this is a little marvel hi !
[07:29] <f5opv> hats off agn to Mr Leo
[07:30] <craag_philcrump> MaXimaN: Err most lipos have real problems with cold
[07:30] <craag_philcrump> This is a low temp version
[07:30] <craag_philcrump> And still it waits for the battery to warm up >0 degrees in the morning before charging it
[07:31] <craag_philcrump> otherwise it kills it in just a few days (see battery graphs of early B- flights)
[07:31] <MaXimaN> craag: My understanding was that outgassing is reduced at lower temperatures
[07:32] <MaXimaN> If due to going under voltage, that is
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[07:33] <craag_philcrump> ok, I don't know that much detail. I just know that effective capacity is seriously reduced below 0, and charging it below 0 can permanantly degrade it.
[07:33] <SpeedEvil> It's a special low-temperature cell
[07:33] <craag_philcrump> I've also heard that high-current charging of a frozen battery can have 'disastrous' effects
[07:33] <SpeedEvil> he got a batch made
[07:34] <f5opv> Have a project to build an autonomous telemetry aprs sender to set on a mountain top @4500ft
[07:34] <craag_philcrump> SpeedEvil: Yep - buys him about 10 degrees margin I think he said.
[07:34] <f5opv> what kind of batt would U use LiPo ?
[07:34] <fsphil> 1371.6 metres
[07:34] <SpeedEvil> LiFePO4 probably
[07:34] <fsphil> now that's a proper mountain
[07:34] <craag_philcrump> f5opv: If weight is not an issue - I'd use lead-acid tbh.
[07:35] <f5opv> Lead under 0°C would be convenient during winter ?
[07:35] <MaXimaN> LiFe is more stable, certainly
[07:36] <craag_philcrump> f5opv: They're fine down to ~ -20 as long as they're charged.
[07:36] <craag_philcrump> maybe -30, but never tried that low!
[07:37] <f5opv> tks so sure lead would be better and easier to set with solar pannel !
[07:37] <fsphil> the solar cells will work better that's for sure
[07:37] <fsphil> they love the cold
[07:37] <MaXimaN> I'm pretty sure that is being tried by Leo's flights ;)
[07:37] <craag_philcrump> fsphil: As long as they're not covered in snow...
[07:37] <fsphil> hah
[07:37] <fsphil> yes
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[07:38] <craag_philcrump> fsphil: Hows your mountaintop station going?
[07:38] <fsphil> my wifi bits haven't arrived yet. got everything else ready
[07:38] <MaXimaN> The battery voltages would suggest Leo is not using LiFe cells, though
[07:39] <MaXimaN> I'm prety sure a single cell doesn't go higher than 3.6V
[07:39] <SpeedEvil> he's not - it's a special lithium
[07:39] <SpeedEvil> li-ion
[07:39] <MaXimaN> But Leo's go to LiPo voltages
[07:42] <f5opv> on mountain, hw prevent snow effect on batt charging: hanging solar pannel in a fir tree ?
[07:43] <fsphil> only thing you can do really is keep it at an angle
[07:44] <fsphil> unless you give it wipers
[07:45] <fsphil> does it snow often at the site?
[07:45] <fsphil> wind power might be more reliable in the winter
[07:46] <f5opv> snow covered during 3 months a year
[07:46] <SpeedEvil> Vertically hung panel can be a good solution
[07:47] <SpeedEvil> Though some places, the snow is going to stick
[07:47] <SpeedEvil> Coatings may help
[07:48] <f5opv> just for telemetry test for a few months (arduino r3 with lm335 + black rain gauge)
[07:50] <f5opv> sorry thats not the subject here tks for your comments
[07:51] <SpeedEvil> Consider also not.
[07:51] <SpeedEvil> Work out a power budget, and work out if a simple changeable battery every couple of years is the easier route
[07:52] <SpeedEvil> Also, vandalism
[07:53] <SpeedEvil> You can box up a solar-less device way easier
[07:53] <fsphil> mppt battery charger would help too
[07:55] <f5opv> Arduino uno is power hungry so i was thinking abt simple solar power solution.
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[08:03] <SpeedEvil> Don't use it then
[08:04] <SpeedEvil> What range do you need - what telemetry and how often?
[08:08] <f5opv> range: up to the next vhf repeater 10km far from site hx1 frm radiometrix would fit i suppose
[08:09] <f5opv> tlm: voltage, temp, rain or snow
[08:10] <f5opv> every 10'
[08:14] <amell> wtf re B-66! is the backlog importer running?
[08:15] <amell> B-66 apparently encountered temps of -254C&.
[08:16] <SpeedEvil> amell: I wonder if it reset
[08:16] <amell> reset would lose the backlog?
[08:16] <SpeedEvil> dunno
[08:17] <Maxell> Temp: 9.200 C ?
[08:17] <SpeedEvil> f5opv: If only every 10 minutes, then 30s/10 min is 1:20 duty cycle. If you have 50mW power usage when on, that's 2mW or so. That's 16Wh/year.
[08:18] <amell> this is strange.i cant see how B-66 would have gone through africa. Is it possible it shut down, and turned on again a few days later?
[08:18] <SpeedEvil> amell: That's what I'm wondering
[08:18] <amell> the winds dont look right for going via africa.
[08:18] <SpeedEvil> If it's shut down for low battery, and the charging diddn't go right
[08:19] <f5opv> ok thanks !
[08:19] <amell> Yeah, this seems to be the obvious explanation. I would have expected it to get picked up in greece/italy/yugo otherwise.
[08:19] <SpeedEvil> 16Wh/year is 2 or 3 18650 cells
[08:20] <amell> leobodnar: is that a reasonable hypothesis?
[08:20] <SpeedEvil> If you don't actually need 10 minutely reports, but just readings at 10 minute intervals, and are OK with this being relayed once every couple of hours say - this could be much lower
[08:22] <amell> the first battery report is 3.18V with solar input of 0.49V - sounds like a brownout to me if it went below, but Leo would need to comment on what min operating voltage is.
[08:22] <f5opv> ok i will think abt frame spacing for energy savings
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[08:27] <Maxell> Yeah, something went wrong with B-66. No way it could have passed Tukey, they have good APRS coverage.
[08:27] <amell> 2014-07-31 22:34:21 BST: PA3WEG-7>M0XER-4: Hi leo, tracking from bicycle! lol
[08:28] <Maxell> amell: http://pa3weg.nl/?id=news http://pa3weg.nl/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/M0XER-4_Bicycle_mobile.jpg
[08:28] <Maxell> lol
[08:29] <amell> you can send aprs messages from a handheld? hmm!
[08:30] <SpeedEvil> amell: APRS bidirectional isn't that hard
[08:30] <SpeedEvil> It's a bit annoying.
[08:30] <Maxell> amell: that Kenwood can, yes :)
[08:30] <amell> sure, just didnt know that handhelds supported it
[08:31] <amell> https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10590434_10152249819056179_349747836706673506_n.jpg
[08:31] <Maxell> 2014-08-11 04:58:32 CEST: M0XER-6>APRS66,YO6KNY-2,WIDE2*,qAR,YO4RDJ-10:!/85C*VjWTO N&ef/A=044579|!"C{&F"r!)|
[08:31] <amell> ffs
[08:31] <Maxell> fist B-66 packet
[08:31] <Maxell> amell: nsfw
[08:33] <SpeedEvil> Oooh - new b66 packets from a new receiver -
[08:33] <SpeedEvil> Should take it most of the way to the caspian sea
[08:33] <Maxell> UA6LBJ-1 DR-135F, Soundmodem, UI-View32 v.2.03
[08:33] <SpeedEvil> Several hours of coverage - should replay most of the logs with luck
[08:33] <amell> i would have thought logs would have come through by now.
[08:34] <SpeedEvil> The log importer needs to be running
[08:34] <amell> ah. yes.
[08:34] <SpeedEvil> But that can be done from archive
[08:34] <SpeedEvil> s
[08:34] <Maxell> why not run it 24/7 on some vps?
[08:35] <SpeedEvil> It's only been useful in the last couple of weeks
[08:35] <amell> theres logs since 4am this morning
[08:35] <amell> can someone run the importer?
[08:35] <Maxell> amell: LeoBodnar needs to do that
[08:36] <SpeedEvil> I'm sure he'll get around to it :)
[08:36] <amell> where is he when you need him
[08:36] <Maxell> Work? Vacation? :)
[08:36] <amell> if there is indeed logs, maybe there is radio issues.
[08:38] <amell> thanks for the spam
[08:38] <Maxell> lol why does zeusbot does this in the channel? :P
[08:38] <SpeedEvil> amell: while you wait: http://imgur.com/gallery/50q0zpH
[08:38] <fsphil> it's an old bot. it's a bit senile
[08:38] <amell> /msg zeusbot !msg LeoBodnar Logimporter needs to be run for B-66!
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[08:40] <amell> http://www.engadget.com/2014/08/10/warkitteh/ - interesting idea.
[08:42] <Maxell> fsphil: yes, sending it to the channel reminds me of the "good old times"
[08:44] <UpuWork> I think he knows amell
[08:47] <mfa298> a lot of IRC bots will just reply to wherever the query came from. So the polite thing to do it send the commands in a pm if they're going to be spammy
[08:55] <LeoBodnar> yeah i think it had a hard shutdown or reste as first Black Sea packet had seq.no. = 1 which is hard reset with very high probability [09:20] <amell> leobodnar: is that a reasonable hypothesis?
[08:56] <Maxell> mfa298: except that zeusbot did not accept the !help in query :)
[08:56] <LeoBodnar> hard reset deletes the log unfortunately
[08:56] <amell> thats a bummer
[08:57] <amell> looks like it might have been shut down a while. what is your expectation of minimum operating voltage?
[08:57] <LeoBodnar> i think GPS locked up over Atlantic and either depleted battery or kept it in continuous reset loop
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[08:58] <LeoBodnar> if it shuts down due to low battery voltage it still retains message sequential number and th elog
[08:58] <MaXimaN> B-66 really seems to be doing the grand tour. It's 100km from where they held the winter olympics :)
[08:58] <LeoBodnar> "radiation event"
[08:59] <amell> blame it on radiation ;)
[08:59] <MaXimaN> Cosmic rays!
[08:59] <MaXimaN> :D
[08:59] <LeoBodnar> Comic rays
[08:59] <fsphil> sporadic E(rasure)
[08:59] <amell> seems to be the standard explanation for unexplained events i.e. bugs. lol
[08:59] <MaXimaN> Must have been a gamma ray burst froim a nearby galaxy. That would do it.
[08:59] <LeoBodnar> "for technical reasons"
[08:59] <MaXimaN> amell: That and aliens.
[09:00] <LeoBodnar> well startup temperature was -256C so it came from outer space
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[09:00] <MaXimaN> Perhaps it drifted through a cloud of liquid nitrogen
[09:01] <amell> yes, 434.500 will be polluted for years to come, as Leos Bs orbit the globe perpetually.
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[09:06] <MaXimaN> Leo: Have you looked at how the LiPo is holding up through these charging and thermal cycles?
[09:10] <LeoBodnar> there wasn't much visible degradation from "new"
[09:12] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: there is no attempt in the payload to track where it's been - other than the log - it couldn't have gotten confused at a circumnavigation?
[09:14] <MaXimaN> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA4Za3Hv6ng
[09:14] <MaXimaN> Could be a nice way of viewing HAB timelapse sequences
[09:14] <LeoBodnar> no, there are no state machines in the firmware
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[09:23] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Why is the flight document for B-64 appearing for 31sr August ?
[09:25] <Laurenceb__> lol B-66
[09:25] <Laurenceb__> looks like it went further south
[09:26] <Laurenceb__> there is no B-66 log?
[09:27] <DL7AD> no it should be received before
[09:27] <Laurenceb__> looks like a firmware bug?
[09:27] <DL7AD> there are many digipeaters in greece and this region
[09:27] <Laurenceb__> causing it to turn off
[09:27] <amell> laurenceb__: pls review the channel log :)
[09:27] <DL7AD> it can be even received for the medirrerrenean sea
[09:28] <Laurenceb__> yeah
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[09:31] <Laurenceb__> i wonder if there is a way to fix this
[09:32] <Laurenceb__> should be possible to reset the gps
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[09:42] <lz1dev> ??+ lol="1"
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[09:42] <lz1dev> ??x lol
[09:43] <lz1dev> y so broken
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[09:46] <fsphil> !learn add zeusbot I am a cranky old senile IRC bot
[09:47] <fsphil> hah
[09:47] <fsphil> totally broke
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[09:47] <lz1dev> rip
[09:47] <fsphil> oh now you work
[09:47] <lz1dev> wat
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[10:35] <lw2dtz> hello
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[10:36] <sp2ipt> hi
[10:36] <joeman> g'day
[10:36] <malgar> holy shit! how is possible that nobody received B-66 over europe?
[10:36] <malgar> :O
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[10:37] <SpeedEvil> It reset
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> The first reception was with sequence number 1
[10:37] <SpeedEvil> Now, while that's not - quite - impossible - ...
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[10:37] <LeoBodnar> it's been incommunicado
[10:38] <SpeedEvil> Speculation is GPS related bugs.
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[10:39] <malgar> so no playback?
[10:39] <malgar> anyway.. good to see it alive!
[10:39] <lw2dtz> somebody of habitat here ?
[10:39] <malgar> LeoBodnar: you did it three times :) great
[10:40] <malgar> btw: I like very much the new version of mobile tracker. Thanks a lot to the developers
[10:40] <LeoBodnar> looks like it
[10:40] <fsphil> stealth floater
[10:41] <malgar> who is the mobile-tracker developer?
[10:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> lw2dtz, depends what your looking for you might need #habhub ?
[10:41] <lz1dev> malgar: np :)
[10:41] <malgar> lz1dev: you? :)
[10:42] <lw2dtz> Hi, I need to approving to flight to be launch in two weeks.
[10:42] <lz1dev> am I not enough?
[10:42] <lz1dev> :(
[10:43] <LeoBodnar> more than :D
[10:43] <LeoBodnar> stealth upgrades
[10:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> lw2dtz, best in #habhub then thats where the admins sit
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[10:44] <lw2dtz> Thanks//
[10:46] <MaXimaN> Leo: So if I udnerstand the hypothesis correctly, GPS locked up in high current drain state, drained battery faster than it could be charged (or was at night and not charging), LiPo protection kicked in and cut off power to the tracker?
[10:48] <LeoBodnar> yes it looks like it. Or perhaps solar panel has degraded or been damaged and could not provide enough charge. We need more data
[10:48] <MaXimaN> And the GPS logs are held in RAM?
[10:49] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[10:49] <MaXimaN> Debugging from thousands of miles away :)
[10:50] <LeoBodnar> guessing more like it
[10:50] <MaXimaN> Wait... there are other kinds of debugging besides guessing?
[10:50] Action: MaXimaN makes notes
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[10:55] <MaXimaN> I'm really curious to know what happened to B-64.
[10:55] <fsphil> yea, blinking an LED is a classic microcontroller debugging method
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[11:00] <holders> Hello gentlemen, would it be possible to ask a question about which radio receivers are best for beginners?
[11:01] <joeman> just ask :)
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[11:01] <holders> Excellent, so what is the best radio receiver for beginners?
[11:02] <holders> I've been looking at various yaetsu models, are they advisable?
[11:02] <mfa298> theres a list of radios people have used on that page
[11:02] <holders> ahh excellent, thank you!
[11:03] <mfa298> If you just want a cheap receiver things like the rtlsdr dongles are reasonable and the Funcube Pro+ is very good but you obviously need a decent laptop to go with it.
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[11:04] <mfa298> the FT817 is popular as a small radio but has a higher pricetag as it's a transmitter as well (and you'll need an amateur radio license to use it for transmitting)
[11:05] <yokis> is it possible to go chasing a balloon with a software radio USB dongle (like an adapted TV one) and a decent aerial? or is it only really advisable to use a proper radio if you're trying to track something you've launched and find it
[11:05] <holders> Ah ok... I will have a look at the funcibe
[11:05] <fsphil> I've chased a few flights with a funcube dongle
[11:05] <fsphil> and a little magmount whip on the roof of the car
[11:06] <yokis> and got good enough signal? Or was it a bit patchy?
[11:07] <mfa298> yokis: people have used an rtlsdr for chasing with.
[11:07] <Geoff-G8DHE> If its a Chase car then you might want to have a small Yagi to be able to DF the transmitter when very local or if GPS fails.
[11:08] <mfa298> The smaller standalone radios are more useful if you're just looking for the payload based on radios signal and you're having to go through woods etc.
[11:08] <mfa298> but I've used a Funcube Pro+ in the car when chasing.
[11:09] <MaXimaN> I have a cheap rtlsdr and an X-50N in the loft and I receive... bugger all.
[11:09] <MaXimaN> FCD+ on the way, though
[11:09] <mfa298> In terms of receiver quality I've not seen much difference between the Funcube Pro+ and the FT817. The rtlsdr's aren't as good but they'll do well enough with a reasonable antenna.
[11:09] <fsphil> you need that x-50n in it's natural territory
[11:10] <yokis> what would you recommend as a reasonable antenna? What size?
[11:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> Better to put the X-50N outside then before replacing the dongle!
[11:10] <MaXimaN> fsphil: They great outdoors?
[11:10] <MaXimaN> Heh - not an option, sadly
[11:10] <fsphil> for chasing I use this: http://cpc.farnell.com/watson/wsm-270/wsm-270-mini-mag-antenna/dp/IT44456
[11:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> yokis, what purpose for the aerial, just listening, or actually chasing payload in car or on foot ?
[11:11] <yokis> chasing payload, probably in a car
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[11:12] <Geoff-G8DHE> In car as above, but if Direction Finding on foot you need a YAgi to point in direction and get bearing
[11:14] <yokis> mfa298: by "decent laptop" do you mean decent specs like processor or is there something else I should know?
[11:16] <fsphil> SDR software usually needs a pretty good processor
[11:17] <mfa298> main thing is having a laptop that can run the the sdr software and dl-fldigi. and potentially enough battery life if you're having to carry it around to find the payload.
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[11:41] <F1VJQ> LeoBodnar Congratulations on your THIRD cirumnavigation with B-66
[11:42] <F1VJQ> Any idea how B-66 got to the Black Sea undetected?
[11:42] <LeoBodnar> looks like it has been in shutdown mode
[11:45] <F1VJQ> Oh... I didn't know about that mode!!
[11:45] <F1VJQ> No backlog to upload?
[11:46] <F1VJQ> I suppose it could have entered N Africa and then across E Mediterranean to get to Black Sea...
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[13:22] <DL7AD> what a mess in europe on the snus map
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[13:46] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-bjwQMepmE
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[13:57] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sA4Za3Hv6ng
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[14:04] <cm13g09-work> mfa298: ping
[14:07] <mfa298> cm13g09-work: pong
[14:08] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Ouch http://safeshare.tv/w/kLlmcNCGBk
[14:08] <cm13g09-work> mfa298: see PM
[14:08] <Dark-Fx> lame
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[15:21] <Evaldas> Hi guys
[15:21] <Evaldas> is there any chance I can catch something with SDR and RTL usb dongle?
[15:22] <Evaldas> find some signals but unable to decode
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[15:28] <mfa298> Evaldas: where are you located ?
[15:28] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes use a couple of Dongles here with pre-amps (HABAMP) and then into one of the radios SDR-RAdio is my preference
[15:29] <Geoff-G8DHE> You will need a decent outdoor aerial if you want to track long range but a simple ground plane aerial will get you started for flights that are nearer to you.
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[15:34] <Evaldas> Geoff-G8DHE: initial plan is to track weather balloon
[15:34] <Geoff-G8DHE> OK thats what I do with one of the dongles, that's normally connected to the 2m/70cms co-linear aerial
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[15:35] <Evaldas> have you made it yourself or bought?
[15:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its an amateur radio aerial that's close enougth to the Sondes band @ 400-420MHz to work for the purpose WX-2
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[15:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> Are you in the UK or elsewhere ?
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[16:02] <Evaldas> Geoff-G8DHE: can you recomend any areal for me to start with?
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[16:05] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its best to be mounted outside I would go for a simple 2m/70cms co-inear aerial like http://www.amazon.co.uk/X-30-COLLINEAR-ANTENNA-AERIAL-PMR446/dp/B00793HWQQ
[16:05] <Evaldas> cheers pal
[16:06] <Geoff-G8DHE> Try looking on ebay as well you may find cheaper
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[16:14] <Evaldas> Geoff-G8DHE: have you got any good resources (online)
[16:16] <Geoff-G8DHE> For HAB work then the wiki
[16:16] <Geoff-G8DHE> Is a good starting point
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[16:32] <Evaldas> Geoff-G8DHE: is that antenna you mention possible to mount on a car?
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[16:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> Nope co-linears are possibly a bit long for car mounting, normally use a 5/8thsLambda or smiliar like
[16:33] <Evaldas> because if I cannot mount it on my car then how can I track my balloon :)
[16:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://www.nevadaradio.co.uk/comet/?sort=1&stock=&category=121
[16:34] <Geoff-G8DHE> You talked about weather balloons not your own HAB !
[16:34] <Geoff-G8DHE> But these aerials are good for either
[16:36] <Evaldas> :))) as far as I understand I want to cover 144/430MHz range
[16:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> Where are you wanting to fly your own balloon from UK or elsewhere ?
[16:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> The relevant radio bands differ around the world
[16:38] <Evaldas> yes UK
[16:38] <Evaldas> want to use a tv dongle for tracking
[16:38] <Evaldas> and py in the sky
[16:38] <Geoff-G8DHE> in the UK we use the ISM band which happens to be located within an Amateur Radio band called 70cms
[16:38] <Geoff-G8DHE> we use ISM because AR is not legal in the UK when airborne
[16:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> The aerials are also close enough to the Radio Sonde band (weather balloons) to work adequately
[16:39] <mfa298> for use in a car I think a number of people use http://cpc.farnell.com/1/1/21033-wsm-270-mini-mag-antenna-wsm-270-watson.html
[16:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> so if your listening from home a co-linear like X-nn types are good
[16:40] <Geoff-G8DHE> from car then as above or the listing from Nevada are good
[16:40] <Evaldas> thanks for helping me out
[16:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> However if you want to chase a balloon and then Direction Find it when you get close you will need a Yagi directional aerial as well
[16:41] <mfa298> It's well worth having an antenna at home and trying to track other flights before doing your own one, that way you get used to the software and how it works
[16:41] <Evaldas> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MALDOL-VM-727-RS-MOBILE-ANTENNA-2-metre-70cm-/221518881149?pt=UK_Mobile_Phones_Communication_Radio_Antennas&hash=item33938de17d
[16:42] <Evaldas> what do you think
[16:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yup probably adequate
[16:43] <Evaldas> gonna use GPS for tracking too
[16:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> What else is there to use ;-)
[16:44] <Evaldas> I dunno, intuition :D
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[16:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> I would take a look at the Wiki tracking guide if you haven't already
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[16:47] <Geoff-G8DHE> also http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning
[16:48] <chimpusmaximus> Hi i'm working with Evaldas, i had to disconnect and rejoin but we are looking to use a gsm/gps tracker as a backup when close to ground for GSM and a pi in sky rpi board to provide GPS through radio feed.
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[16:49] <Geoff-G8DHE> GSM has a reliability problem for these purposes, they might work is the best you can say!
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[16:51] <chimpusmaximus> Yep its only going to be a backup, i have a sim card which will roam in the uk to pick up what ever signal it can. But it will only work if we have a signal.
[16:51] <Geoff-G8DHE> Try it on a phone when lying on the ground ....
[16:51] <Geoff-G8DHE> in a country field rather than a town of course
[16:52] <chimpusmaximus> :-) i'm on holiday at moment near welsh border and lucky if i can get a signal..
[16:52] <Geoff-G8DHE> quite ;-)
[16:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> right called for tea -= AFK
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[16:56] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi
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[17:04] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> TRIPLE CIRCUMNAVIGATION!
[17:09] <Lunar_Lander> congratulations LeoBodnar
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[17:11] Nick change: martijn__ -> PB0NER
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[17:13] <PB0NER> it might be a bit off topic, but there are many HAMs here.... I am looking for multiband dish feed systems (70?, 23, 6 and 3cm) for my 1,8m dish...
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> nothing says you can't fly a 1.8m dish.
[17:16] <PB0NER> haha lol
[17:16] <SpeedEvil> (well, the CAA, gravity, funding, but apart from that...)
[17:16] <LeoBodnar> ta Lunar_Lander
[17:16] <PB0NER> Well I do not care about the CAA .... for obvious reasons
[17:16] <daveake> "It's not a dish it's a parachute. Honest"
[17:17] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[17:17] <PB0NER> martians fly even bigger ones
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[17:19] <PB0NER> I got hold of one last week, the feed is a logpair (23...3cm) and can be only horizontal or vertical and has only one N connector
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[17:20] <PB0NER> It has been used for ATV (which I do too, but this will be on a AX/EL rotor)
[17:21] <PB0NER> AZ/EL that is
[17:21] <ian_> That will be different. Most use AZ/EL rotators . . . :) Why don't they call them X/Y rotators eh?
[17:22] <SpeedEvil> Because they are not.
[17:23] <ian_> Apparently . . .
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[17:23] <PB0NER> What I want is a H/V/CPL/CPR switchable feed for 23,13, 6 and 3cm ..... I know thats sort of impossible but I want to get as close as possible
[17:24] <PB0NER> the AX was a typo
[17:24] <ian_> I gathered that
[17:25] <ian_> But let's not lose an opportunity
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[17:26] <ian_> What's realistic, two separate switchable feeds, linear H/V and the other CPL/CPR?
[17:27] <PB0NER> I might experiment with with a multiband X yagi as feed ... thing is I have no equipment to test the lot. Ring's cannot be switched between H/V polarisation (as far as I can see)
[17:28] <PB0NER> or I must rotate 1/2 turn
[17:28] <PB0NER> 1/4 ... sorry
[17:28] <ian_> 1/2 or 1/4?
[17:29] <PB0NER> 1/4
[17:29] <ian_> How do the satellite TV do it, magnetically?
[17:30] <PB0NER> this looks interesting though: http://www.jamsat.or.jp/features/on6ug-feed/index_e.html
[17:30] <ian_> If you hadn't guessed, I'm well out of my depth
[17:30] <PB0NER> you x-y comment did the trick
[17:30] <PB0NER> ;)
[17:31] <ian_> Ha Lol, the picture looks good, but not sure that it doesn't look like something for slicing sushi or bacon, yum!
[17:31] <PB0NER> LNB's have two antenna's one for hor and one for vertical
[17:32] <ian_> I have a couple of windscreen wiper motors, for a future AZ/EL creation with a small dish.
[17:32] <PB0NER> and it is switched between the two by some kind of magic in the LNB itself
[17:32] <ian_> Very basic though.
[17:33] <PB0NER> what will you do with that? Satelite stuf?
[17:33] <ian_> Different feeds would be via a Spanner.
[17:33] <PB0NER> I have two M2 x yagis which will be on the AZ/EL rotor with the 1.8m (~ 6ft) rdish between them
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[17:34] <ian_> I'm thinking of 2m and 70cm helicals for satellite tracking, but that was well before I got the HABit.
[17:36] <PB0NER> most info I find is very theoretical or like the japanese amsat site without any specific details... I understand the lot but:
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[17:36] <PB0NER> it will be on top of my house in such a position that experimenting is not a real option
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[17:37] <ian_> I stopped a scrap metal man in the street and bought two 60cm TV dishes from him for £10. Do you notice how they expand, like tree branches, when you try to throw them into the back of a car?
[17:37] <ian_> They always look smaller up in the air . . .
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[17:40] <PB0NER> this one does not look small, that is for sure...
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[17:42] <ian_> Neat pictre
[17:42] <PB0NER> yeah, yagis will be bigger though
[17:43] <ian_> I'm limited to 2.5m antenna length because of garden dimensions and rotation.
[17:44] <PB0NER> that is a 60cm dish on top ....
[17:44] <ian_> Impressive though.
[17:44] <PB0NER> about 42dBd gain on 23cm if I got that correct
[17:45] <PB0NER> I do not have the full specs yet
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[17:46] <ian_> That's an awful lot of effective power but a fairly narrow beam.
[17:47] <ian_> I was amazed by a 3m eme dish that was completed a few years ago somewhere and within hours of being switched on the guy had reported about ten contacts. They must have been following his project and queuing up for the switch on event.
[17:47] <ian_> I wonder if he has had as many contacts in subseuent years. Lol
[17:48] <PB0NER> EME is pretty busy nowadays
[17:48] <PB0NER> I will have a go
[17:49] <ian_> Nice talking. I recognised your call from here earlier in the year - a regular. Speak again.
[17:49] <PB0NER> I will have a go with EME, I'm still here
[17:50] <PB0NER> yeah, I am one of the regular HAB trackers here near Rotterdam
[17:51] <ian_> HAB is becoming increasingly popular, and showing a few regular HAMs that there is more to be done with radio. I always seem to read your callsign as PBONER, so it's memorable!
[17:51] <ian_> G0PAI here
[17:51] Nick change: adamgreig -> AI6CZ
[17:52] Nick change: AI6CZ -> adamgreig
[17:52] <adamgreig> o/
[17:52] <PB0NER> ah... Yeah I choose that call since I like to be sort of a clown
[17:53] <PB0NER> my nickname around here is (translated freely 'the stiff one'
[17:53] <ian_> Lol, a sure sign of a flexible personality though!
[17:53] <Dark-Fx> One does not simply pee with a boner
[17:53] <PB0NER> haha...
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[17:53] <ian_> If at all
[17:54] <PB0NER> I always try to get away from the standard paths
[17:54] <PB0NER> Dark-Fx: I do... with some practice and enough beer
[17:55] <ian_> A collection point for such people. I'm always told that I'm either a teller of hard truths or asking the odd questions that no one else think about.
[17:55] <PB0NER> I think I'm like that too
[17:55] <ian_> I guess that beer must be a bit of plasticiser then.
[17:56] <PB0NER> just high pressure does the trick
[17:56] <ian_> Are you going to the Conference?
[17:57] <PB0NER> If I only had the money.... I would
[17:57] <ian_> Yes, it's quite expensive just from middle England when factoring in accommodation.
[17:58] <PB0NER> oh I can ride my bike and camp, that is not the issue ... there is some expensive water in between
[17:58] <ian_> Lol
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[17:59] <Dark-Fx> just need to bicycle very fast
[17:59] <PB0NER> I returned from Friedrichshaven yesterday
[17:59] <PB0NER> mine has no pedals...
[18:00] <PB0NER> for a 100 year Dornier (aircraft) party
[18:03] <PB0NER> http://pb0ner.nl/pictures/meindo.jpg
[18:03] <PB0NER> I restore historic aircraft too....
[18:03] <ian_> I had an operator many years ago who asked to come into work an hour late . . . he said he was going to Munich. Work was at Maastrict. I think his name must have been Buck Rogers . . .
[18:03] <PB0NER> Lol vodafone?
[18:05] <ian_> Vodafone claimed that they were what you needed to be "in when you were out". Voice mail makes you "Out when you are in!.
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[18:06] <ian_> I'm amazed that they could preserve the Do17 that was dug up from the Goodwin Sands a while ago. I would have thought that the magnesium alloy would have been well eaten up
[18:06] <ian_> Time for tea . . . AFK. 73
[18:06] <PB0NER> If you have the plate with the serial number, with some work, you have a flying plane
[18:06] <PB0NER> 73!
[18:06] <ian_> Lol
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[18:07] <PB0NER> work and money that is
[18:07] <maxmed> Hi, I hope to launch my first balloon around the end of august nut currently don't have a proper radio, just a cheap dongle thing. I know they are really expensive so would rather not buy one, does anyone know of a good place to try to rent/borrow one from? I live in Kent and will launch probably from Churchill in Cambridge
[18:08] <PB0NER> I'm AFK too ... my tent is still drying in the rain ....
[18:17] <PB0NER> maxmed
[18:17] <PB0NER> maxmed: Do not worry about the radio, worry about the antenna
[18:17] <PB0NER> THAT is the receiving bit
[18:18] <PB0NER> Cheap dongles do fine (as in RTL dongle)
[18:18] <PB0NER> or give it a go and go and talk to the local HAM club
[18:18] <PB0NER> they might help you from the club station or someone might join you
[18:20] <PB0NER> thing is you need a radio with sideband reception
[18:20] <PB0NER> (SSB)
[18:20] <PB0NER> they are not that common mostly they are FM
[18:20] <PB0NER> most scanners will do, and they are relatively cheap
[18:21] <PB0NER> maxmed: are you still there?
[18:22] <maxmed> yes, ok, I'll see if I can find a better antenna for the dongle but sense its not much good as it keeps cutting out in SDR sharp and just freezing. I'll also try and find our local ham club and see if they can help
[18:23] <PB0NER> HSSDR is better... cutting out and freezing is probably caused by wrong settings or lack of CPU power
[18:23] <PB0NER> HDSDR
[18:24] <PB0NER> do not set it to wide... that reduces the CPU hunger dramatically
[18:24] <maxmed> ok, I'll try that as well, my computer is pretty cr@p as well, no processing power!
[18:25] <PB0NER> I have been tracking HAB's with an RTL dongle... distance to balloon over 300km!
[18:25] <PB0NER> with a diamond X5000
[18:25] <PB0NER> no pre-amp no filters
[18:25] <Reb-SM0ULC> PB0NER: same for me, about 300 km with dipole + dongle
[18:25] <PB0NER> RTL dongles go way better with a bandpass filter and a pre-amp
[18:26] <Reb-SM0ULC> PB0NER: yeah, i'll build a couple of bpf
[18:26] <PB0NER> the pre-amp is just to compensate for the loss of the bandfilter
[18:27] <PB0NER> It can be used to decode the FUNCUBE sat easily too ... that puts out a little more power... but that is 700km up!
[18:28] <PB0NER> and I decode over the sahara or greenland... with a RTL dongle and HDSDR
[18:28] <PB0NER> I prefer my IC-910 though
[18:28] <Reb-SM0ULC> PB0NER: slight differenc in cost.. :)
[18:29] <PB0NER> well... I already had my 910 when I needed to spend mony on an RTL dongle
[18:29] <PB0NER> I CNC milled a housing for the RTL dongle and that helps too
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[18:30] <maxmed> Is a Yupiteru MVT-7100 decent? what sort of price is reasonable for 2nd hand?
[18:30] <PB0NER> Do not know the radio, let me check
[18:31] <PB0NER> hmmm 530khz ~ 1650MHz does not seem to fit
[18:32] <PB0NER> eh sorry misread... the khz bit
[18:32] <PB0NER> yeah ... looks fine has AM/FM/SSB
[18:33] <maxmed> So what sort of price would be reasonable do you think? DDon't want to massively overpay!
[18:34] <PB0NER> I really do not know... HAMS often look at TRX, at least I do
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[18:35] <PB0NER> list price is about 250USD so second hand anything above half of that would be a too much
[18:36] <maxmed> ok, dinner time now so off for a bit but will leave laptop running and be back soon!
[18:36] <PB0NER> look around if they are for sale
[18:36] <PB0NER> enjoy!
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[19:01] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
[19:02] <ian_> Maxmed: if someone from this channel lives close to your launch site, you might ask if they are interested in assisting you and bringing their tracking kit along. Also, at a radio club, the person to note is the one that is regularly buying new equipment and selling off their last model, often cheap, particularly so if they are not good at looking after their spending.
[19:04] <PB0NER> ian_: we might have a go and make a non internet QSO ...
[19:05] <ian_> I only have 2m and 70cm antennas at the moment.
[19:05] <PB0NER> hmm bummer
[19:05] <PB0NER> I only have a FD3.. connected to a FT-900 works pretty well though
[19:06] <mfa298> cm13g09: pong
[19:06] <PB0NER> I rarely use the kit
[19:08] <ian_> I regularly make skeds on 2m and 70cm, but had a 20m dipole at 5m and got a lecture from an Italian who said that I was wasting my time as all my power would be going into space. I thanked him profusely for the use of his expensive antenna and explained that mine must have cost all of 2 Euro.
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[19:11] <PB0NER> haha lol... and he does not seem to understand how propagation works... High power is useless
[19:11] <PB0NER> I think he put more power into space than you did :)
[19:12] <PB0NER> I mostly receive
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[19:12] <PB0NER> for some reason ... and definitively are not a 5-9 goodby guy
[19:15] <PB0NER> and=I am
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[19:30] <gurgalof> I hate when people have trouble reading me, then give me a 5-9...
[19:32] <Maxell> gurgalof: yes same in digital modes'
[19:33] <Maxell> heck - fldigi can even prefill the rst in and out to 599
[19:33] <Maxell> 559?
[19:33] <Maxell> dunno
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[19:43] <PB0NER> indeed... that is what i mean
[19:43] <PB0NER> damn... it smells like burned chicken here
[19:44] <amell> maxmed: I would be happy to assist you with your launch in the cambridge area. have tracker will travel.
[19:45] <PB0NER> you see... the community works... I would help you but my travel costs are way higher than a radio
[19:46] <amell> maxmed: and if you launch from elsworth, i wouldnt even need to leave my office. lol
[19:47] <amell> maxmed: but happy to travel to churchill: just 20 mins for me. elsworth is 5 mins.
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[19:49] <maxmed> amell, thank you very much for your very generous offer, I will certainly take you up on it! There is a radio on eBay which have have my eye on so will see if I can get that as well, I think having a backup with some experience is a very good idea for my first launch.
[19:50] <amell> thats fine, if my laptop behaves. the last couple of launches its been locking up. but i will fix it before your launch.
[19:50] <amell> cant be before 31st august though as i am away
[19:50] <PB0NER> backup with some experience is a very good idea
[19:51] <PB0NER> indeed that is so... radio is confusing at start
[19:52] <amell> i love the sight of a screamingly loud waterfall signal :)
[19:52] <PB0NER> at least you can play around with the payload and your radio @home
[19:53] <PB0NER> hmmm well done me.... i just made an audio pre-amp with some old junk and without calculating the resistor values.... and it works
[19:54] <amell> maxmed: i can do anytime after and including sunday 31st aug.
[19:54] <PB0NER> 0 - 100kHz ...
[19:55] <PB0NER> and pretty flat... amazing
[19:56] <PB0NER> flat amplification over the whole range
[19:56] <maxmed> amell, does that include weekdays (the Monday/Tuesday 1st/2nd)?
[19:57] <PB0NER> afk for a bit
[19:57] <amell> it can do, subject to availability
[19:57] <PB0NER> do you refer to yourself by 'it'? funny
[19:57] <amell> it = the sentence.
[19:58] <amell> I think we have a language issue there
[19:58] <PB0NER> hmm I read it to quickly... you are right
[19:59] <Dark-Fx> too*
[19:59] <PB0NER> indeed..
[19:59] Nick change: luteijn -> PC1PCL
[20:00] <PB0NER> sometimes I'm too lazy to do it right, sorry
[20:00] <amell> its fine :)
[20:01] <PB0NER> I know.. It is no excuse, but I'm doing 3 things at the same time. Measuring my pre-amp, speaking German and this...
[20:02] <PC1PCL> So that's probably also the reason it smells like chicken?
[20:02] <PB0NER> haha... negative... I had to (here with one 'o') hold some metal part whilst soldering it to the PCB
[20:03] <Dark-Fx> I know whenever I try to speak German that it smells like burned chicken
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[20:03] <PB0NER> well GErmans do
[20:04] <PB0NER> in some cases
[20:04] <PC1PCL> Ok, so not due lack of concentration on the soldering job because of too much other things going on.. I understood the chicken reference though
[20:04] <maxmed> amell could you pm me your email address?
[20:04] <PB0NER> and as I found out
[20:05] <PB0NER> PC1PCL: I did it on purpose
[20:05] <PB0NER> I knew it was gonna hurt but did it anyway
[20:06] <PC1PCL> I've got a couple of handy hands, some small pliers and still managed to chickenfy my fingertip earlier tonight holding something in place. sometimes it is worth it..
[20:06] <PB0NER> indeed
[20:07] <PB0NER> sometimes I ask my wife to hold something :)
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[20:10] Nick change: PB0NER -> PB0NER-Martijn
[20:10] <PB0NER-Martijn> At least you now all know my real name
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[20:11] <Dark-Fx> But I don't know how to pronounce it.
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[20:12] <PB0NER-Martijn> I can imagine, If we ever meet... you can call me MArtin
[20:13] <PC1PCL> first part like the start of 'march' and last part like part of of a fork: 'tine'..
[20:13] <PB0NER-Martijn> but it sounds like marteign
[20:15] <PB0NER-Martijn> In English and GErman I'm used to be called Martin
[20:16] <PB0NER-Martijn> but I listen to 'Hey you' too
[20:16] <Upu> last few places for the conference if anyone is on the fence about coming
[20:17] <PB0NER-Martijn> well I'm over it
[20:17] <PB0NER-Martijn> Would be really nice to meet all of you
[20:18] <PC1PCL> Yeah, with al my crazy-dutch letters in my name, I got pretty good at answering to 'hey you' too..
[20:18] <PB0NER-Martijn> luteijn was your previous nick ... Is that your name?
[20:19] <PC1PCL> yeah, last name, and Pieter usually gets mutilated too, or misspelled into Peter..
[20:20] <PB0NER-Martijn> oh ok, well Hi Pieter
[20:20] <amell> Pieter Pan?
[20:21] <PC1PCL> hmm this torch has a bigger flame then I thought, better not make any chicken with it..
[20:21] <PB0NER-Martijn> and do not have a close look.... or get a fryball
[20:24] <PB0NER-Martijn> hmm another way to get away from a multiband feed in a dish:
[20:24] <PC1PCL> not suitable for smd-parts... but I think I got my bit of pipe into submission with it.
[20:24] <PB0NER-Martijn> http://www.q-par.com/images/DSC_0010_250.JPG/
[20:25] <PC1PCL> nice set of dishes..
[20:26] <PB0NER-Martijn> not very suitable for my 6-cyl diesel Rotor though
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[20:28] <PB0NER-Martijn> http://pb0ner.nl/pictures/6cylrotor.jpg
[20:28] <Dark-Fx> you guys need more V8s in the nedarlands
[20:28] <PC1PCL> not sure of the scale of that first picure..
[20:28] <arko> wow man
[20:29] <arko> thats a dish
[20:29] <PB0NER-Martijn> I had the same car with a 4,4 V8
[20:29] <Dark-Fx> nah, something like a 6.2L or 7.0L
[20:30] <PB0NER-Martijn> I used to have a flat-6 with 480cuI
[20:30] <PB0NER-Martijn> (7.8L)
[20:30] <PB0NER-Martijn> but that turned a propellor
[20:31] <PC1PCL> With you and rotor, something like this comes to my mind first: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4f/Sikorsky_S-92_rotor_P1230176.jpg
[20:31] <PB0NER-Martijn> Done something similar for a living..
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[20:32] <PC1PCL> which is why I tought of it ;)
[20:32] <PB0NER-Martijn> oh you know? .... used some equipment with 4x4800sHp too
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[20:34] <PB0NER-Martijn> but JetA1 is a bit more powerful diesel fuel
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[20:36] <PB0NER-Martijn> but I'm still looking for a 23/13/6/3cm H/V/LCP/RCP solution for that dish
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[20:36] <PB0NER-Martijn> or anything that comes as close as possible
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[20:41] <PC1PCL> maybe someway to turn/shift different units into to focus would work, but then you'll have more points of failure..
[20:42] <PB0NER-Martijn> I thought about that, but that is no real solution if I want to use 2 bands at the same time
[20:43] <PB0NER-Martijn> (one rx/one tx)
[20:45] <PB0NER-Martijn> If possible I would like to use it for both ATV and satellite work
[20:46] <PB0NER-Martijn> the dish was used for ATV.. which is all horizontal polarized
[20:46] <PB0NER-Martijn> and the feed is a special kind of log-pair 23-3cm
[20:48] <PB0NER-Martijn> rotating that 19 degrees would help a bit, but it has a single N connector and I do not like using a du/three/quad plexer on microwaves
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[20:48] <PC1PCL> so you could rotate that 90 degrees and cover hor and vert polarization, probably easier than rotating the whole dish on its center-axis..
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[20:49] <PB0NER-Martijn> that is what I meant
[20:49] <PC1PCL> with such a big dish, perhaps you could live with the loss when being mismatched for circular polarisation..
[20:49] <PB0NER-Martijn> I am in no real hurry, the whole mast needs to be installed
[20:50] <PB0NER-Martijn> I can make something like this : http://www.emclab.cei.uec.ac.jp/img/equip/dual-polarized-log-periodic.jpg
[20:51] <PB0NER-Martijn> but two vbands at the same time is still an issue
[20:51] <PB0NER-Martijn> -v
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[20:54] <PB0NER-Martijn> hmm sometimes it shows the picture behind the link sometimes not... kinda weird
[20:54] <PC1PCL> hmm, other angles than 90 degrees might work, again, it would not be optimal, but perhaps good enough, if you had something like that cross and put it at 45 degrees?
[20:55] <PC1PCL> (either permanently, or with a separate rotor to optimize alignment when you needed it)
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[20:56] <PB0NER-Martijn> at 45 degrees you can switch between H and V too... but if I put it up like that it would be a simple switch
[20:57] <PB0NER-Martijn> Rings can be possible too, but then it is way harder to switch
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[20:57] <PB0NER-Martijn> and I really need to rotate the feed
[20:58] <PB0NER-Martijn> thing is I have no real details about the dish yet... I will put in smaller mesh since this is 1x1cm
[20:58] <PB0NER-Martijn> and that is too big for 3cm
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[20:59] <PC1PCL> maybe something along the lines of hf-multiband dipoles with passive traps could work at cm ranges too?
[21:00] <PB0NER-Martijn> I do not think so
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[21:03] <PC1PCL> nice thunderstorm going on..
[21:06] <Laurenceb__> anyone here got train tickets for london before?
[21:06] <Laurenceb__> im having major issues with nationalrail.co.uk ordering train to conference
[21:07] <Laurenceb__> it seems to get confused about DLR, and if it should use underground or overground
[21:07] <Laurenceb__> is there a better site?
[21:07] <mattbrejza> you can buy tickets from the rail companies as well as nationalrail
[21:07] <Laurenceb__> i know
[21:07] <danielsaul> Just get a train ticket to a main london station and buy tickets on the day for stuff like the tube and dlr
[21:07] <Laurenceb__> but the prices are more expensive
[21:07] <Laurenceb__> eeek thats going to cost
[21:08] <mattbrejza> oh, i thought generally all the sites were the same
[21:08] <Laurenceb__> they are all giving me different stuff
[21:08] <Laurenceb__> first capital connect seems to work ok, but its £1 more expensive than everywhere else
[21:08] <danielsaul> Try thetrainline
[21:08] <PC1PCL> Probably should just get an Oyster card for London area when you arrive at the station there.
[21:08] <mattbrejza> i think normally trains to london are to 'london termini,' then you use oyster to get around london
[21:09] <Laurenceb__> thetrainline charge a booking fee
[21:09] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[21:09] <Laurenceb__> i think ill try first capital connect and virgin trains
[21:09] Action: SpeedEvil ponders how many hours Laurenceb will spend tonight to save a pound.
[21:09] <Laurenceb__> and buy tickets individually
[21:09] <Laurenceb__> heh
[21:09] <mattbrejza> i would nomrally get tjem from http://www.southernrailway.com/ but thats because they sometimes do cheaper tickets for their routes
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[21:09] <arko> the gift shop at greenwich uni sells oyster cards
[21:09] <arko> thats were i got mine
[21:10] <danielsaul> It's generally pointless prebooking for TfL services though, just use an oyster or get a travelcard
[21:10] <arko> still got 30 pounds on it
[21:10] <arko> :)
[21:10] <arko> woop woop
[21:11] <PC1PCL> Only went to London by train twice, once from Manchester and once by TGV. I think in both cases a plane would have been faster and cheaper though.
[21:13] <PC1PCL> Somehow had this idea that trains were a good idea, but you can appearantly not depend on them like the murderers in Agatha Christie stories etc.
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> http://spaceweathergallery.com/full_image.php?image_name=Mike-Bartils-Noctilucent-Clouds-12-2_1407237758.jpg&PHPSESSID=dv150cnnj3tveh8pa33pagcco6 - wow
[21:13] <SpeedEvil> Noctilucent clouds caused by SpaceX launch
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[21:17] <RB__> sorry to be repetitive, how many of Leo's balloons have got all the way around
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[21:20] <SpeedEvil> 3, that we know of
[21:27] <Laurenceb__> lol first capital connect pwns all other sites
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[21:27] <Laurenceb__> its found a journey thats 1 hour shorter
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[21:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> If your travelling up from the South side of London head for Maze Hill, that way you only need Southern region trains
[21:33] <Laurenceb__> im travelling from the north
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[21:37] <Upu> last minute charlie Laurenceb_ :)
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[21:45] <mikestir> Laurenceb__: the west coast mainline is shut that day so all the trains stop at watford or something
[21:45] <mikestir> that's why I'm not coming to the conference
[21:45] <mikestir> takes 6 hours instead of 2
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[21:47] <mikestir> most of the journeys I got offered involved sleeping over at birmingham new street or getting a 3 hour bus ride from hemel hemstead
[21:47] <SpeedEvil> mikestir: For a similar reason b-64 is delayed. The balloon has failed, and it's being carried by a polar bear
[21:47] <Laurenceb__> mikestir: luckily ill be coming on midland mainline
[21:47] <mikestir> the trains aren't running because Bs on the line
[21:48] <Laurenceb__> its probably easier to recompile linux than order a train ticket...
[21:48] <mikestir> Laurenceb__: isn't that the same one? the one that goes into euston?
[21:48] <Laurenceb__> no
[21:48] <mikestir> I guess that must be the route involving the stop-over at birmingham then
[21:51] <mikestir> not sure who thought it would be a good idea to have major engineering works every saturday of august, including the bank holiday
[21:51] <mikestir> hopefully they've been fired
[21:51] <Geoff-G8DHE> Nope their planning the HS2 line installation
[21:51] <mikestir> is this the bit where they make the actually quite good normal trains look shit so they can justify it?
[21:52] <Broliv> try living in the North west. Here the trains look like rickshaws
[21:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> That's the one ;-)
[21:53] <mikestir> you must be on the city line Broliv
[21:54] <Broliv> Lol, it's a sad state of affairs that you even know where abouts I live
[21:54] <Broliv> just from a description of the crap trains
[21:55] <Broliv> Merseyrail isn't bad, Northern rail on the otherhand got a rough deal when they were given those buses on train dollys
[21:55] <mikestir> actually it's because you emailed me the other week when I did that WG2 launch for wirral grammar
[21:56] <Broliv> Ahh
[21:56] <Broliv> gave it away ;)
[21:56] <Broliv> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_142
[21:56] <mikestir> yeah those bus trains are pretty bad. the merseyrail electrics are excellent however. Having lived elsewhere for several years and moved back I think public transport round here is actually very good
[21:57] <mattbrejza> mikestir: you not close to anyone else to get a lift with?
[21:58] <mikestir> I think I had my pass revoked now anyway because I've taken too long to lay a patio
[21:59] <mikestir> Broliv: I don't think we can complain about being able to leave lime street just before 7 to be in euston for 9. that's pretty good
[21:59] <Broliv> No no, that is pretty good, you are right
[21:59] <Broliv> going down to London is actually pretty quick
[22:00] <Broliv> going across (as I live between Liverpool and Manchester) is aweful tho
[22:00] <Broliv> it's 35 miles to Manchester but it can take an hour and 20 minutes
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[22:10] <Laurenceb__> lol the class 142 looks pretty soviet
[22:15] <mikestir> the good bits run on these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_508 which are older but not made out of a bus
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[22:16] <Broliv> I definitely agree with Mike on that
[22:16] <ian_> My travel is sorted, Birmingham to London Victoria by National Express, then a couple of TfL busses C10 to Lambeth N stn a 53 or 453 to Deptford Bridge and a ten minute walk.to Greenwich Novotel. And return of course. The only time critical points being the National Express coaches.
[22:17] <ian_> I bought a visotor Oyster card online and delivered a couple of days later.
[22:17] <mattbrejza> why not tube/dlr from victoria?
[22:20] <ian_> Limited research showed two buses to be simple. Having an acceptable solution I didn't look further, but of course with the Oyster I can replan at any time up to the day.
[22:21] <ian_> It's been a good few years since I was last familiar with the Underground.
[22:23] <mattbrejza> trains > buses
[22:23] <mattbrejza> everyone knows that :P
[22:23] <mattbrejza> espcially the dlr
[22:23] <mattbrejza> sky train
[22:24] <mikestir> except when it's a train that used to be a bus
[22:25] <Lunar_Lander> :P
[22:26] <Lunar_Lander> like a bus! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkTw7J-hGmg
[22:26] <ian_> Sky Train, shades of Freddie Laker surely. predecessor to Easy Jet and RyanAir. Got a hard ride but set the original agenda
[22:27] <Broliv> lol > Lunar_Lander
[22:27] <Lunar_Lander> :D
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> Payload candidates.
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallest_organisms
[22:28] <SpeedEvil> Well - probably not 'The smallest crocodilian is the Cuvier's dwarf caiman (Paleosuchus palpebrosus) from northern and central South America. It reaches up to 1.6 m (5.2 ft) in length.'
[22:30] <Lunar_Lander> oh
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[22:33] <Laurenceb__> national express O_o
[22:33] <Laurenceb__> rather you than me
[22:34] <Laurenceb__> id take walking over that
[22:34] <Laurenceb__> my feet would get some exercise rather than having zero circulation for about 7 hours...
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[22:40] Action: Laurenceb__ is watching dragons den
[22:40] <Laurenceb__> http://www.um-brands.com/stick-um-nano-suction-phone-holder
[22:40] <Laurenceb__> interesting stuff
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[22:46] <SpeedEvil> Interesting
[22:47] <Laurenceb__> i wonder if it can "stick" to ptfe or silicone
[22:47] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[22:48] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb__: can geckos?
[22:49] <Laurenceb__> yes
[22:49] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BptTjPc6ee8
[22:49] <Laurenceb__> well - to ptfe
[22:50] <ian_> I remember my wife arriving in Singapore. I opened this kitchen cabinet and a chit chat ran out at high speed . . . welcome to Singapore! That would be the big fat kitchen chit chat.
[22:51] <Laurenceb__> ?!
[22:51] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcghSDmR7-I - eww - while searching for that (don't click)
[22:51] <Laurenceb__> ...
[22:52] <Laurenceb__> eye bleach
[22:54] <ian_> That lived in a fourth dimension behind the refrigerator.
[22:54] <ian_> ooooh! Ya always need to keep your ring clean, but on YouTube?
[22:55] <Laurenceb__> nsfw
[22:55] <amell> ffs. disgusting
[22:56] <amell> thanks for afflicting me with bad dreams tonight
[22:56] <Broliv> i'm off, night all
[22:56] <ian_> I don't suppose that a swim around the bath would do. It would need to have some deep end to get adequate coverage. Gross was the thought that came to mind.
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[00:00] --- Tue Aug 12 2014