highaltitude.log.20140810

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[00:52] <DL7AD> B-63 arrived in china
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[01:03] <myier> great
[01:04] <arko> WOW
[01:04] <arko> that was fast!
[01:05] <arko> going to meet those pacific hurricanes
[01:06] <arko> look at that velocity!
[01:06] <arko> 45m/s!
[01:07] <DL7AD> hopefully there will be enough time to download the log
[01:07] <arko> yeah
[01:08] <arko> it might show up here right as im leaving haha
[01:08] <DL7AD> im depressed about these crap digipeaters there
[01:08] <DL7AD> -.-
[01:08] <DL7AD> almost no range
[01:08] <arko> ha
[01:08] <arko> yeah
[01:10] <DL7AD> im going to run a new prediction
[01:10] <arko> nice
[01:10] <arko> im gonna start packing my luggage
[01:10] <DL7AD> for what?
[01:10] <DL7AD> ah sure
[01:10] <arko> flight to the uk :)
[01:10] <DL7AD> yes me too in a few days
[01:11] <DL7AD> still have to get my new tracker ready
[01:11] <DL7AD> http://www.dl7ad.de/femto21_back.jpg
[01:11] <DL7AD> http://www.dl7ad.de/femto21_front.jpg
[01:12] <arko> neat
[01:12] <DL7AD> when are you going to fly to uk arko?
[01:12] <arko> wonder how well its going to work
[01:12] <arko> tuesday
[01:12] <DL7AD> yep.... already busted one microcontroller :
[01:12] <DL7AD> :/
[01:12] <arko> i tried one that small too https://www.flickr.com/photos/arkorobotics/11128811074/in/set-72157637213955175
[01:13] <arko> but honestly, its just overkill on size
[01:13] <DL7AD> what chip were you running?
[01:13] <arko> cc1110
[01:13] <arko> rtty only
[01:13] <DL7AD> texas?
[01:13] <DL7AD> TI?
[01:13] <arko> yes
[01:13] <DL7AD> all in one chip?
[01:13] <arko> yeah
[01:14] <arko> mcu+rf
[01:14] <arko> then gps on the other ride
[01:14] <arko> side*
[01:14] <arko> it had very few components
[01:14] <DL7AD> ah okay. im running 3 chips. gps+micro+transmitter
[01:14] <DL7AD> and voltage regulator of course
[01:14] <arko> ah
[01:14] <arko> i didnt put one on there
[01:14] <arko> it was all powered by a coil cell
[01:15] <DL7AD> 3 or 1.5V?
[01:15] <arko> and all parts were in spec of the battery voltage range from charged to discharged
[01:15] <arko> both
[01:15] <DL7AD> ah okay
[01:15] <arko> but then it takes a lot of the fun away
[01:15] <arko> no solar
[01:15] <DL7AD> yeah i specified mine for one lithium cell
[01:15] <arko> short life
[01:16] <arko> and coin cells dont handle cold
[01:16] <arko> nice
[01:16] <DL7AD> what current did it draw in general?
[01:16] <DL7AD> in average
[01:16] <arko> im interested to see your results
[01:16] <arko> i never finished it completely, so im not sure
[01:16] <arko> but it was spec'd to max at 3v@0.15A
[01:16] <DL7AD> ah okay.
[01:17] <arko> but it would never get there
[01:17] <DL7AD> o.O
[01:17] <DL7AD> thats a lot.
[01:17] <arko> assuming 100mW and gps drawing max
[01:17] <DL7AD> eh okay
[01:17] <arko> thats not expected operation
[01:17] <arko> never finished it
[01:17] <arko> i should
[01:17] <DL7AD> :D
[01:17] <arko> but i got annoyed at trying to make it tiny
[01:18] <DL7AD> yep... that bothers me too
[01:18] <arko> made the new solar version instead
[01:18] <DL7AD> working with a microscope
[01:18] <arko> don't mind that, but i got so carried away that I didnt even have a programming port
[01:19] <DL7AD> eh....
[01:19] <arko> i just made a separate board to test on, once the code was ready, i would then remove the chip and transfer it over to flight
[01:19] <arko> board
[01:19] <DL7AD> rofl
[01:19] <DL7AD> thats intense
[01:19] <arko> yeah
[01:19] <arko> i wanted every gram
[01:19] <arko> saved
[01:19] <DL7AD> *fingers crossed*
[01:19] <arko> but soon saw the light, and went toward solar :P
[01:19] <arko> http://imgur.com/a/BRhLs
[01:19] <arko> latest revision
[01:19] <arko> good luck with yours though!
[01:20] <kf7fer> DL7AD: it looks like you have some traces under the ublox GPS. Does that cause any problems? I ask because I thought the datasheet warned against any traces under the gps
[01:20] <DL7AD> before i busted the micro mine draw 7mA @ 1.4V running at 12mhz. im about to slow it down to 1mhz
[01:21] <DL7AD> kf7fer: yes
[01:21] <DL7AD> but only power supply (nothing carring HF)
[01:22] <kf7fer> ah, ok. Makes sense. Was just wondering
[01:22] <DL7AD> yeah just slow I/O pins and VCC
[01:23] <DL7AD> VCC is a thick trace under there
[01:23] <DL7AD> *below
[01:23] <kf7fer> I was wondering because on my last board I routed one of the lines to a microSD card on the opposite side of the PCB and was always worried if that was a "bad thing"(tm)
[01:24] <kf7fer> doesn't matter much as I realized I really needed to flop the microSD anyways
[01:25] <DL7AD> kf7fer: yeah like arko i have just a few parts on the pcb
[01:25] <DL7AD> :D
[01:25] <DL7AD> crap
[01:37] <kf7fer> speaking of things that you might step in... I've been making boards with a GPS chip antenna and according to the datasheet I've been using them upside down!? (https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/GPS/JTI_Antenna-1575AT43A40_2006-09.pdf)
[01:38] <kf7fer> so the brown mark goes on top??
[01:38] <kf7fer> that's totally different than all the pics I've seen
[01:38] <kf7fer> (and if I have been doing them upside down... overall they seem to work fine ;-) )
[01:39] <DL7AD> i think it doesnt matter
[01:39] Nick change: DL7AD -> AF5LI
[01:40] Nick change: AF5LI -> DL7AD
[01:40] Nick change: jaymzx_away -> jaymzx
[01:40] <kf7fer> Looks like you're right. It does seem to work.
[01:42] <kf7fer> I've just had a couple of boards that couldn't get a fix and I never could figure out why. Hence the look at the datasheet (ok I should have looked at it _first_ but what can I say?)
[01:43] <DL7AD> because if there would be a rule how to put it on the pcb there will be no rule not to have copper below
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[02:20] <myier> hmm, funny. When I put an array as global in PROGMEM instead of a local, the program doesn't work anymore
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[02:24] <kf7fer> myier: Not to state the obvious but that means you're doing it wrong ;-)
[02:24] <kf7fer> you need to change the definition as well as the usage
[02:25] <myier> yes, I thought I was on top of it, and now I really suck
[02:25] <kf7fer> it can be tricky - I've really struggled
[02:25] <myier> ok, I didn't pay attention to the fact that types had to be changed...
[02:26] <myier> oh accessing it too
[02:26] <kf7fer> That makes a difference. So you change how the value is defined and then you need to change how you're using it. Exactly
[02:27] <kf7fer> sounds like you're on top of it then
[02:28] <myier> maybe not, how do you have a char array reference with this system
[02:29] <myier> you don't?
[02:31] <myier> I think I'll stick with regular variables until my RAM explodes
[02:34] <kf7fer> sorry... you mean how to you put a char array in PROGMEM?
[02:34] <kf7fer> I can give you an example it you'd like?
[02:36] <kf7fer> sorry s/it/if
[02:40] <myier> no it's ok kf7fer, don't lose time with that, there are plenty of examples on the web
[02:41] <myier> thanks anyway
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[02:41] <kf7fer> ok. if it helps I started with a simple program that just sent PROGMEM data to the serial port so I could make sure it was working correctly
[02:44] <myier> good idea
[02:44] <kf7fer> or rather I made sure to echo the data as I tried to use it to the serial port so I could see when things went horribly wrong ;-)
[02:45] <kf7fer> best debug tool is the serial port and the ease at which you can create and use test sketches
[02:46] <kf7fer> of course I've gone as far as to start coding using the Microsoft C/C++ IDE for the basic stuff - much easier to debug
[02:48] <myier> what does it do better?
[02:56] <kf7fer> well you can set break points and examine variables step by step
[02:56] <kf7fer> plus the intellisense makes coding easier
[02:56] <kf7fer> (though I don't like the default formatting)
[02:57] <kf7fer> I've used the Microsoft free tools to do basic development
[02:57] <kf7fer> you have to make changes of course but for the most part, if you structure your code correctly, you can just cut and paste
[02:59] <kf7fer> only 77 more airwires left! Whoo hoo!
[02:59] <myier> oh you mean you run it as regular intel code?
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[03:00] <kf7fer> no. but the source is the same
[03:01] <kf7fer> mostly
[03:01] <myier> ok
[03:01] <myier> thank you, good night
[03:02] <kf7fer> nite
[03:02] <myier> still no B-66 :(
[03:02] <DL7AD> i think it did
[03:02] <DL7AD> died
[03:07] <SpeedEvil> Oooh!
[03:07] <SpeedEvil> But 63 is back
[03:07] <SpeedEvil> Coming up on south korea
[03:08] <SpeedEvil> 46000km
[03:10] <SpeedEvil> yeah - 66 clearly isn't over spain in a functional condition
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[03:48] <nigelvh> Dunno what time it is over there. Wonder if UPU is up
[03:50] <kf7fer> 4:50am in London
[03:50] <nigelvh> Yeah, not quite yet then.
[04:04] <DL7AD> 6am in berlin
[04:05] Nick change: jaymzx -> jaymzx_away
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[04:27] <SpeedEvil> Looks like 63 has at least another couple of hours of comms - so a few more backlogs'll be filled in
[04:29] <nigelvh> I look forward to having it float over again
[04:29] <nigelvh> ^^ Also, that's ludicrously awesome
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[06:06] <malgar> b-63!!!
[06:07] <malgar> altitude now is under 13000 m
[06:07] <malgar> the beginning of the end?
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[06:38] <jcoxon> Its alive
[06:38] <jcoxon> b63 that is
[06:38] <arko> wild!
[06:39] Nick change: jaymzx -> jaymzx_away
[06:43] <malgar> :D
[06:43] <malgar> and 1 month
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[06:54] <Upu> morning
[06:55] <malgar> morning Upu
[06:55] <malgar> take a look at the tracker :)
[06:55] <Upu> I've seen
[06:55] <Upu> quite amazing
[06:57] <malgar> poll: what feature would you like to be implemented in the next Leo's flights?
[06:57] Action: malgar SSDV
[06:58] <malgar> (It would be working just few days over europe but it's enough for me :P)
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[07:46] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Is it me or is hmt not showing the tracks?
[07:53] <Upu> its you
[07:54] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Muh cleared cache, reloaded,rebooted....
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[08:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Ah new feature! "Click here to view entire flights" by default its only showing current position!
[08:01] <Upu> where is that ?
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[08:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> On the settings page in the top text maybe only on phone/tablet?
[08:02] <Upu> possibly
[08:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-Tab> Its much faster of course without the track on this Nexus7
[08:03] <Upu> ah yes
[08:03] <Upu> appears on my mobile
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[08:24] <alistair> A question, http://i.imgur.com/SXZ6wnH.jpg
[08:25] <alistair> how do you attach the rope to your parachute's top (red arrow in the image)
[08:25] <alistair> And how long should the rope between the balloon and parachute be (green)?
[08:27] <mclane_> I am not the specialist, but I tend to keep the green rope shorter then the rope between parachute and payload so that the remnants of the balloon may not touch the payload and damage the antennas
[08:29] <alistair> Okay, but how long do you make them? And I forgot to ask this too: what happens to the rope I highlighted in green? Will it fall and lay on the parachute?
[08:32] <mclane_> what we typically do: green rope = 4 m; rope between the parachute and payload = 8 m.
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[08:33] <mclane_> problem in this cnfiguration: if the balloon does not perfectly burst, there is the risk that the green rope tangels around the parachute which will not completle unfold then --> accelerated falling
[08:34] <alistair> Thanks. if the balloon perfectly bursts, what then though? Wont the rope still hang on the parachute?
[08:35] <mclane_> yes, but since this is low weight it won't hurt
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[08:36] <alistair> then I didnt understand you, what do you mean that the rope can tangle the parachute if the balloon doesnt perfectly burst (Im not sure what you mean by that too)?
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[08:39] <mclane_> either the balloon perfectly bursts (and disintegrates completely) and you then have only a small piece of the balloon neck on the end of your green rope (which weights a few grams) or the balloon
[08:40] <mclane_> or you still have the remnants of the complete balloon on it (several 100 gms) which then typically tangles around the parachute lines due to the weight
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[08:42] <alistair> Oh, I understand now, many thanks.
[08:42] <mclane_> perfect burst: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX6UXHLXjb0
[08:42] <alistair> I wonder what you need to do to get a perfect burst
[08:43] <mclane_> you cannot influence that, depends on the balloon make
[08:43] <alistair> OK
[08:43] <alistair> btw, whats with the alarm sound?
[08:44] <mclane_> no idea
[08:44] <mclane_> (was not my video)
[08:44] <alistair> do you think its something to find the payload on the land easier?
[08:44] <alistair> was thinking of something like that earlier
[08:46] <mclane_> could be
[08:46] <alistair> but cant find anyting suitable (lightweight and runnable for few hours)
[08:46] Action: mfa298 wonders what the likelyhood B-63 will fly over California next weekend.
[08:46] <mclane_> I have never done that and I think you don't need it with a good tracker
[08:46] <mfa298> probably quite high as arko will be in London.
[08:47] <DL7AD> rofl
[08:47] <DL7AD> bummer
[08:48] <alistair> Extra safety doesnt hurt
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[08:50] <mfa298> alistair: my personal thought is that a buzzer/sieren on the balloon should be remotely enabled (and disabled) rather than on by default. You may not want to alert other people to it's presence (a few payloads have gone walkabout) and you don't want it to be irritating to any locals if it's stuck in a tree (How would you like it if there's a sieren going off outside your house that keeps going until the battery runs out - which could take a long time
[08:51] <alistair> ok
[08:52] <mfa298> Radio tracker should get you pretty close if it's working and if you're close enough to hear something you should be close enough to enable a buzzer remotely - although that does add some more complexity.
[08:53] <alistair> not a radio tracker, satelite
[08:54] <mfa298> ah, are you just planning on flying a spot then?
[08:54] <mclane_> where are you located alistair?
[08:54] <alistair> yeah, in a mini gymball
[08:54] <alistair> i mean gimbal
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[08:56] <MaXimaN> A gymball should give it lots of protection
[08:56] <MaXimaN> ;)
[08:56] <MaXimaN> Morning all
[08:56] <mfa298> If you don't have any other electronics then possibly a quieter buzzer with some form of timer then. Aim for something that's going to be useful but not annoying if it lands in a tall tree near a house (hopefully that's worst case in terms of annoying someone)
[08:57] <alistair> OK
[08:57] <alistair> http://ourhabproject.com/gps-global-positioning-system/
[08:57] <alistair> Any suggestions for a mini buzzer thing?
[08:57] <MaXimaN> I use one for my multirotors
[08:58] <MaXimaN> Switches on and off via a PWM signal
[08:58] <MaXimaN> Let me find a link
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[08:58] <MaXimaN> http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/__20578__Turnigy_Be_Found_Lost_Model_Beeper.html
[08:59] <alistair> thanks
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[09:00] <MaXimaN> 7.2g. You can akways make it lighter by stripping off the heatshrink
[09:00] <alistair> ok
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[09:01] <MaXimaN> Sorry, that was the international warehouse. UK warehouse link is: http://www.hobbyking.co.uk/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=31793
[09:01] <MaXimaN> Or eBay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Turnigy-Be-Found-Lost-Model-Beeper-Finder-/291121331198?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item43c82efbfe
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[09:03] <alistair> Nice!
[09:05] <alistair> BTW, Why don't most of the HAB parachutes I've seen have spill holes? I thought parachutes need spill holes to not wave side to side uncontrollably?
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[09:14] <MaXimaN> alistair: That's a really good question.
[09:14] <MaXimaN> I do kite aerial photography and fly frameless kites, and that kind of venting is essential for stability in the air
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[09:37] <alistair> my internet connection reset. Anyone replied to me about the spill holes?
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[10:06] <MaXimaN> alistair: That's a really good question.
[10:06] <MaXimaN> I do kite aerial photography and fly frameless kites, and that kind of venting is essential for stability in the air
[10:07] <MaXimaN> Estes sell parachutes for their rockets and I noticed that they don't have any spill holes
[10:07] <qyx_> he is not here
[10:08] <MaXimaN> ...again :)
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[10:37] <malgar> how is working the playback of the coordinates from B-63?
[10:38] <malgar> it should be at least 5 days, right?
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[10:39] <SpeedEvil> yes
[10:39] <SpeedEvil> I vaguely remember that it's a log datapoint every 8 minutes.
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> But that doesn't seem to work,
[10:41] <SpeedEvil> It ran out of APRS just as it went out of sight of the chinese mainland
[10:41] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> It depends where in the cycle it is when its re-acquired,
[10:41] <malgar> it is autamatic? is there a Leo server that pre-process the APRS data before sending them to habhub?
[10:41] <SpeedEvil> prhaps
[10:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Not sure
[10:42] <adamgreig> yes
[10:42] <adamgreig> his software decodes the logs, it's not automatic
[10:42] <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately (I'm lazy) the old hysplit on mobile tracker at least shows it taking a sharp left after SK and going north along the russian coast.
[10:42] <SpeedEvil> So it may miss dense APRS coverage in japan
[10:43] <SpeedEvil> Actually no - it's not old - it's 3h old
[10:44] <SpeedEvil> Well, that is old too.
[10:44] Action: SpeedEvil should stop arguing with himself.
[10:44] <SpeedEvil> Also - highaltitude teaches you shit.
[10:45] Action: malgar thinks about B-64 doing several circles around the pole.. in an endless polar vortex
[10:45] <malgar> LOL
[10:45] <SpeedEvil> I had no idea Vladivostok was right next to north korea
[10:45] <SpeedEvil> Ignore above.
[10:45] <malgar> "Learn geography with Leo 101"
[10:46] <SpeedEvil> There is massive APRS activity around vladivostok
[10:47] <malgar> anyway I'm surprised too that is so close to NK
[10:47] <malgar> maybe they moved it in the last months :P
[10:48] <malgar> you know.. conspiracy..
[10:49] <x-f> it's a seismically active area after all
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[10:49] <malgar> x-f: could it affects the balloon's flight? :P
[10:50] <alastair_> how do you connect parachute top to balloon rope?
[10:50] <SpeedEvil> alastair_: 10-20m of light strong string
[10:51] <Upu> you don't need too really alastair_ you can just attach the base of the chute 1/3rd of the way between the payload and the balloon
[10:51] <Upu> 2/3rds
[10:52] <x-f> malgar, i meant the movement of tectonic plates (Vladivostok to NK), but vulcanoes probably would affect
[10:52] <malgar> x-f: clever
[10:53] <malgar> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/42.4199/130.6405 there is only the railway between russia and nk. No roads
[10:55] <malgar> nice triple border nk-russia-china
[10:56] <malgar> I'v been only in the point bewteen nl-be-de
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[10:58] <on4bhm> anyone got any sample code how to set freq for the RFM24 from hope?
[10:58] <on4bhm> in arduino?
[11:00] <alastair_> I dont understand, sorry
[11:01] <Upu> payload to balloon = 30m tie the parachute at 10m from the balloon
[11:01] <Upu> it will hang down until the balloon bursts
[11:01] <alastair_> yeah. how? http://imgur.com/2ZuFUHG The red in this image
[11:02] <Upu> no
[11:02] <Upu> thats a load bearing arrangement
[11:03] <Upu> probably because they had a cut away
[11:03] <malgar> load bearing?
[11:03] <Upu> yeah parachute is in line and supports the payload
[11:03] <malgar> ok, my two flights has been in this way
[11:04] <malgar> everything fine
[11:04] <malgar> and descent nominal
[11:04] <Upu> nothing wrong with it
[11:04] <malgar> :)
[11:04] <Upu> if you have a parachute with a balloon attachment its fine
[11:05] <Upu> though needs more space between the balloon and the payload than on that image
[11:05] <malgar> I was worried that the remaining latex coud fall on the parachte and close it, but it didn't happen :)
[11:07] <malgar> Upu: why wuld you use mor space between the parachute and the payload? I used a long cable just to get it lower if it would went upon a tree.
[11:07] <Upu> the balloons rarely burst clean
[11:07] <Upu> and the 1600g could end up with 10 meters of latex flapping around
[11:07] <Upu> you won't want that wrapping round your payload / smashing it to bits
[11:08] <malgar> ok
[11:08] <Upu> also reduces penduluming
[11:08] <Upu> if that is a word
[11:08] <malgar> I dont know if it is the word, but it's clear :)
[11:09] <malgar> brb
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[11:55] <Laurenceb__> ooh B-63
[11:56] <Laurenceb__> weird that B-66 vanished
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[12:31] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb__: while in line of sight to north korea
[12:31] <F1VJQ> Hey Ho... B-63 is back ; over South Korea!!
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> F1VJQ: not quite
[12:32] <F1VJQ> Pyongyang watch out, Leo's about
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> It was moving quite rapidly at that point
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> 100km/h - it'd have crossed it in a couple of hours
[12:32] <F1VJQ> It shows on snus as over Seoul
[12:32] <SpeedEvil> yes - that's the last datapoint
[12:33] <SpeedEvil> It was being relayed from china still
[12:33] <F1VJQ> ah yes... the time Doh!
[12:34] <F1VJQ> My 70cm rig has been scanning all morning 434.500 +- 10kHz for B-66 but zilch
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> It's probably somewhere in the sea of japan
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> Likely heading up to vladivostok
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[12:36] <F1VJQ> surprised no Japan APRS received it
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> Check the hysplit - it's not implausible
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> It looks like it takes a sharp north turn immediately after where it left from
[12:36] <F1VJQ> maybe it will cross the dateline a second time
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> where it lost signal
[12:37] <F1VJQ> I see KL7L in Alaska on the map... maybe he's listening for approacing Leos
[12:38] <SpeedEvil> But then there is the awkward problem in why it's not being picked up in vladivostok
[12:38] <SpeedEvil> Of course, it's quite plausible that after a month, the envelope has simply given up, or the payload died
[12:38] <SpeedEvil> A month!!!
[12:38] <SpeedEvil> !!!
[12:39] <SpeedEvil> :)
[12:39] <alastair_> I hope I understood the two possible balloon/parachute configuration you guys mentioned. I made these images real quick,
[12:39] <alastair_> http://i.imgur.com/KXOxVML.png
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[12:39] <alastair_> http://i.imgur.com/Eqh9Ned.png
[12:40] <alastair_> Are these what you guys meant?
[12:45] <Upu> those are nice did you do them yourself ?
[12:45] <Upu> yes thats exactly what I meant
[12:45] <Upu> Eqh9Ned = Load bearing
[12:48] <alastair_> Yes I did them in Blender3D.
[12:49] <Upu> you may illustrate the entire wiki I permit it
[12:49] <alastair_> sure let me know what I can do
[12:50] <alastair_> I'd go with 1st one as it doesn't require to attach the top of the balloon to the rope.
[12:50] <alastair_> Which I have no idea how should be done
[12:50] <Upu> I've done a few like those
[12:50] <Upu> you buy them with a balloon attachment
[12:51] <alastair_> You mean you've done like in the first image or second one?
[12:51] <alastair_> By parachutes dont have an attacment
[12:52] <alastair_> *my
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[12:53] <Upu> in that case 1st one then
[12:55] <alastair_> OK, have you done it like that before? I've heard it can get tangled like that.
[12:55] <Upu> I have
[12:55] <Upu> and yes they can
[12:56] <Upu> but its unusual
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[12:56] <alastair_> good to know
[12:56] <alastair_> I've done it like this once, http://i.imgur.com/yjpSuNM.png
[12:56] <alastair_> payload is lost, no idea if it worked
[12:56] <Upu> yeah may cover up your camera :)
[12:57] <alastair_> Sure, but anything else other than that?
[12:57] <Upu> may flap about and damage your antenna
[12:58] <alastair_> got no antenna
[12:58] <Upu> no radio tracking ?
[12:58] <alastair_> spot
[12:58] <Upu> oh
[12:59] <alastair_> My concern was will the parachute open as easily if its hanging like that rather than in the second image where its connected to the balloon rope from its top
[13:00] <alastair_> but since you say you've done it yourself I guess it does
[13:00] <Upu> it will open
[13:00] <daveake> You can cut a bleed hole if it doesn't have one, reinforce the cut circle, then sew in 2 pieces of braided nylon strapping at right-angles across the hole
[13:00] <daveake> Then you can put the chute inline
[13:01] <alastair_> sure
[13:01] <alastair_> but then I have to find out what size spill hole to make
[13:01] <daveake> meh 4"
[13:01] <amell> B-63 got to korea quick!
[13:02] <alastair_> You actually reminded me, how come most parachutes I've seen used in habs dont have spill holes? I thought every parachute needs one?
[13:02] <amell> once upon a time we were amazed when balloons were received in korea. now its just meh :)
[13:03] <daveake> I believe most do alastair_
[13:04] <alastair_> I don't see them
[13:04] <alastair_> here http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Parachutes.html or here http://www.rocketchutes.com/
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[13:05] <alastair_> last link is the parachute used in one of the hab tutorials
[13:05] <daveake> Yes, rocket chute, not HAB chute
[13:05] <daveake> Spherachutes have the spill hole and straps
[13:05] <amell> spherachutes look strange
[13:05] <amell> i am not keen on them for visual appearance.
[13:06] <daveake> Yes that should always be top of the priority list
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[13:06] <amell> if you want to land a thing of beauty, try fruitychutes iris.
[13:06] <daveake> a) work b) easy to see the end
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[13:07] <alastair_> does the one in randomsolutions have a spill hole? http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Parachutes_files/RocketMan.jpg I don't see it
[13:07] <amell> no it doesnt
[13:07] <daveake> See what I said earlier
[13:07] <amell> actually. these are specially made for steve i believe
[13:07] <amell> normal spherachute doesnt have a spill hole. I think steves variant does.
[13:08] <daveake> I don't know if Steve had a hand in the design, but they are sold elsewhere like that
[13:09] <amell> oh its just an attachment loop that is all?
[13:09] <daveake> It's what I described earlier
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[13:10] <alastair_> So sphearachutes have, rocketman ones dont. Did I get it?
[13:10] <amell> http://fruitychutes.com/parachute_recovery_products/iris_ultra_parachutes.htm if you want to see awesome chutes.
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[13:11] <amell> look at the pics, the spill hole has its own strings
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[13:11] <daveake> Yeah I have some sonde chutes that have extra lines down the middle like that
[13:13] <fsphil> nice diagrams alastair_
[13:13] <alastair_> thanks
[13:14] <alastair_> So rocketman parachutes dont have a spill hole right?
[13:15] <amell> apparently not
[13:15] <amell> does that help?
[13:15] <daveake> I don't know. They do have the attachment loops
[13:16] <alastair_> I think it helps to know that some parachutes sold by Steve dont have a spill hole. It kind of means you dont really need one, maybe.
[13:16] <alastair_> The guys from here don't have one either, https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/187
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[13:18] <amell> some people put these spreader plates in between the payload and the chute. I dont see the point of these?
[13:20] <daveake> The spill hole stops/reduces "cupping" where the chute swings back and forth. If your flight has a camera you may well feel that this is a ood thing
[13:22] <daveake> Re the speaders, I imagine it's so that if the balloon comes down below the chute, it stops the ensuing tangle from getting up as far as the canopy
[13:23] <daveake> I've seen flights where the chute is down to maybe half the original diameter because the balloon and line is wrapped around the chute cords
[13:23] <alastair_> That's what I've heard too.
[13:23] <daveake> I'm just guessing re the purpose but if that's right it could be worth doing
[13:24] <amell> your friends at balyolo use spreader plates.
[13:24] <daveake> It's not at all uncommon for 2/3rds of the balloon to come back down
[13:24] <alastair_> Its just Im wondering if I should cut my own spill hole in the rocketchutes parachute or that will cause a tearing
[13:25] <amell> you dont want to do that unless you are willing to tape all the edges up properly with a sewing machine.
[13:25] <daveake> Often the balloon remnants stay above the parachute, as the drag on them is high enough to slow the latex down to slower than the chute speed, but sometimes the latex drops faster
[13:26] <alastair_> so you think it will tear
[13:26] <amell> without reinforcement yes
[13:26] <daveake> My first chute I did this - cutting and sewing. It's easy enough. Since then I've only used spherachutes.
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[13:26] <amell> speak of the devil
[13:26] <amell> the chute expert is here.
[13:29] <alastair_> Hm didnt sew the spill hole in my first flight. Wondering if it teared and fell to death and thats why it was lost.
[13:31] <daveake> My money is on the Spot
[13:31] <alastair_> what?
[13:31] <amell> your spot may have landed upside down
[13:32] <alastair_> Didnt use a spot then, used a cellular gps
[13:32] <Upu> really seriously strongly recommend a radio tracker
[13:32] <alastair_> which wasnt the best idea
[13:32] <daveake> In that case I shall double my bet
[13:32] <Upu> oh :) 50/50 on those
[13:33] <alastair_> probably fell to death in a zone with no connection as well :p
[13:36] <amell> any germans here?
[13:36] <alastair_> do you think no spill hole will affect the landing distance as well?
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[13:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> lz1dev, noticed the change in tracking on the tablet this morning with only the current position, how do you switch back to it after changing back to full path ?
[13:59] <qyx_> wait, the mobile tracker is like 5x faster
[13:59] <qyx_> what happened?
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[14:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> qyx_, thats why I am asking, ran it this morning and only current position shown - very fast
[14:02] <qyx_> i can see the path also
[14:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> then found in settings a new bit of text with a link to full path, took it back t normal
[14:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> but I can't find how to get back to the current position only
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[14:04] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Ah found it! delete cache and the new version appears with current only and the link back
[14:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> ah ?latestonly=0 parameter supplied
[14:05] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> for full path
[14:06] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> ?latestonly=1 for current position
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[14:26] <Laurenceb__> B-63 approaching 800hours airborne
[14:26] <amell> thats pretty nuts :)
[14:26] <Laurenceb__> hopefully it will appear over Russia
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[14:40] <amell> bit surprise B-63 isnt reporting positions?
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[14:42] <amell> also B-66 is overdue. should have been at spain by now
[14:42] <amell> I think B-66 and B-64 have probably come down.
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[14:43] <Dark-Fx> Now I can get upset at you guys for polluting the oceans
[14:43] <Laurenceb__> B-63 is over the sea atm
[14:43] <Laurenceb__> might be arriving in Russia around now
[14:49] <amell> thought there was more aprs over korea, surprising
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[15:00] <Laurenceb__> B-63 went to Gangnam
[15:05] <Laurenceb__> http://airspy.com/
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[15:46] <MarkB_> Hi, anyone about?
[15:47] <fsphil> maybe
[15:47] <craag_philcrump> yep
[15:47] <craag_philcrump> floating around
[15:50] <MarkB_> Happy days. I'm tweaking some script that Steve Smith kindly sent my way to get me going (first build in prog). I've managed to get GPS data parsed and Tx using RTTY but I'm struggling to get my AT mega off the ARDUINO dev board on to a smaller circuit. I've used the pinout and datasheets and content taht power supllies etc are good but, my question is, do I need to use an external oscillator or, just th einternal?
[15:50] <craag_philcrump> using an external for hab stuff is recommended
[15:51] <craag_philcrump> the temperatures can cause the internal one to drift to the point where what it thinks is 9600 baud, and what the GPS does, is different enough to cause problems
[15:51] <MarkB_> Roger thanks. THt's what I thought. I couldn't see any reference t a external source in teh script but, since it wasn't working away from the dev board thought I was having a 'moment'.
[15:52] <craag_philcrump> the oscillator is set up when programming the fuses on the atmegas
[15:52] <craag_philcrump> not in the .ino arduino script
[15:52] <MarkB_> The symptoms I'm getting are just a continuous Tx steady freq, no RTTY.
[15:52] <MarkB_> Ack, the fuses, thanks Phil
[15:53] <craag_philcrump> All arduino atmegas, (afaik), are set up to use an external crystal
[15:54] <MarkB_> Ah, does that mean I'm mandated to use one then? Forgive me being dim, but I want to bottom this one out. I've read the Ard site etc.
[15:55] <craag_philcrump> You can reprogram the fuses for it not to use one.
[15:55] <craag_philcrump> You'll need an ICSP to do that.
[15:55] <MarkB_> Rgr, thanks Phil. I appreciate your help. Are you going to the conf on 16 Aug?
[15:55] <craag_philcrump> I am! you?
[15:56] <MarkB_> :( Sadly, no. My neice has decided to get married in Glasgow on the 16th
[15:56] <craag_philcrump> ah how inconsiderate
[15:56] <craag_philcrump> ;)
[15:57] <MarkB_> Haha. I was looking forward to going though. There has been some great help from a few guys and it would be good to catch up. Next year perhaps.
[15:58] <amell> ooh airspy finally some activity
[15:58] <craag_philcrump> Yeah hope to see you there next year!
[15:59] <amell> I did register for airspy, so will keep an eye out
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[16:00] <MarkB_> Again, thanks. 73s
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[16:13] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes just hope the price for the Airspy is good!
[16:18] <fsphil> prepare for the worst :)
[16:21] <SpeedEvil> http://b3ta.com/board/11093702 - latest from Rosetta
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[16:32] <jellyfishtree> hello everyone. anyone around to approve a payload/flight document?
[16:35] <craag_philcrump> not me. Where/when are you launching though?
[16:36] <jellyfishtree> Tuesday, from Colorado, in the uS
[16:36] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[16:36] <Laurenceb__> B-63 might be on the wrong frequency for Vladivostok
[16:36] <craag_philcrump> jellyfishtree: Ah ok. Can't help much with the tracking from the other side of the pond then. good luck!
[16:37] <jellyfishtree> @craag - appreciated. not this time around.
[16:38] <jellyfishtree> this is my first launch - any advice for a first timer?
[16:38] <craag_philcrump> read the wiki - hoping you've done this already ;)
[16:38] <craag_philcrump> make checklists
[16:38] <jellyfishtree> haha, yeah...the ukhas site has been my bible for the past year
[16:39] <jellyfishtree> checklists have been made. :)
[16:39] <jellyfishtree> im nervous about handling the balloon.
[16:39] <craag_philcrump> what size balloon?
[16:39] <jellyfishtree> its the hyowee 1600
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[16:43] <jellyfishtree> How do you guys design your payload/balloons to travel such far distances?
[16:43] <jellyfishtree> do you weight them to stay at a certain altitude?
[16:44] <SpeedEvil> Fixed volume balloons tend to stay at one altitude.
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> As they rise, there is unbalanced force due to the balloon as a whole being lighter than the surrounding air.
[16:45] <jellyfishtree> are these the ones with ballasts at the bottom?
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> That is - its volume/weight
[16:45] <SpeedEvil> When it rises far enough, the envelope becomes taught, and begins to compress the balloon.
[16:46] <SpeedEvil> The balloon loses lift and eventually comes to a halt.
[16:46] <jellyfishtree> interesting.
[16:47] <jellyfishtree> whereas standard latex/mylar balloons will continue to rise until the pressure inside is greater than the external and burst
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> The reason you get a floater is because the balloon is strong enough to compress the internal gas and not let it expand - to such a point that it increases the density so that bouyancy=0
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[16:48] <jellyfishtree> ahhhh
[16:48] <SpeedEvil> 'compress the gas' is of course wrong - it's relative to external pressure
[16:49] <jellyfishtree> what material are these balloons made of?
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> But it compresses the gas compared to an ideal flexible membrane with infinite elasticity
[16:49] <SpeedEvil> Leo's recent ones have been custom, made out of commercial balloon film, as used to make standard party balloons
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[16:50] <SpeedEvil> the silvered ones. He strips the aluminising off
[16:50] <jellyfishtree> wow. that's pretty awesome. has he put together any tutorials on how to do this? or can we purchase balloons like these somewhere?
[16:50] <bertrik> AFAIK, the more weight you need to lift, the more gas you put in the balloon and the higher the pressure difference at float altitude, so lighter is always better
[16:51] <SpeedEvil> At some point for a given pressure difference/diameter - the balloon will burst
[16:52] <SpeedEvil> Go too light - and the balloon bursts.
[16:53] <jellyfishtree> so its a combination of proper weight and strength of the balloon size and material in relation to the pressure at the targeted altitude
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[16:53] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> Say you've got a balloon going to 100 millibars.
[16:53] <Dark-Fx> you could devise a pressure regulation system
[16:53] <SpeedEvil> The atmospheric density is around 150g/m^3.
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> If your balloon is 1m^3, and contains helium, it will weigh around 40g+the balloon envelope + payload.
[16:54] <SpeedEvil> If it's floating, you know that the total density is 150g/m^3
[16:55] <SpeedEvil> But, there can be excess helium inside - and this is required if you want it to ascend to that level in a finite time, and 'stick' to it - rather than just wander up and down.
[16:55] <SpeedEvil> If the balloon envelope is strong enouhg to contain 5mB of helium pressure, then the internal pressure can rise to 105mB, which knocks 5% off the lift.
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> And you now have a balloon which won't sink if it gets - say - a gram of rain on it.
[16:56] <SpeedEvil> It'll just drop a little, and the superpressure will fall
[16:57] <SpeedEvil> It only starts to plummet when the superpressure - the excess pressure over atmospheric - falls to 0
[16:59] <jellyfishtree> interesting
[17:00] <jellyfishtree> sounds like something i'd like to get into for my next launch
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> It gets really quite complex when you realise that it's not as simple as this
[17:00] <jellyfishtree> Is there anyone around now that can approve my launch documents?
[17:00] <SpeedEvil> the balloon envelope has finite elasticity, and this varies with temperature, the gas inside is heated by the sun, ...
[17:01] <jellyfishtree> haha SpeedEvil I think you are trying to burst my brain...
[17:02] <jellyfishtree> I gotta run. Will check in later if there are any people that can approve my launch docs
[17:02] <craag_philcrump> jellyfishtree: Try in #habhub
[17:02] <jellyfishtree> ooh, thank you
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[17:28] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
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[17:47] <maxmed> Hi, just put my tracking circuit together on a stripboard and was testing with a multimeter to check nothing was going to short out, everything was fie except for all the positive/negative termials which showsed they were connected. depending on which way I measure: when I measure the correct way round *ie. negative leed from multimeter on negative pins I get zero resistance, the other way I get a resistance of 400 ohms. Is this n
[17:51] <daveake> Does your meter have a diode/buzzer position?
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[17:55] <maxmed> daveake: I don't think so, just resistance, voltage, current and battery tester- its just a cheap thing
[17:57] Action: cm13g09 told craag_philcrump and mfa298 to meet him at a certain time (ish). I then realised that I needed to explicitly state that abuse of ISH was not tolerated ;)
[17:58] Action: mfa298 wonders if he should leave now and apply -ve ish
[17:58] <craag_philcrump> +/- 3 hours
[17:58] <cm13g09> craag_philcrump: lol - NO
[17:58] <craag_philcrump> ;)
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[17:58] <cm13g09> mfa298: you aren't allowed to apply negative ish.....
[17:59] <mfa298> it's allowed in the definition it's just a rare occurance
[17:59] <cm13g09> lol
[17:59] <cm13g09> and at this rate, I might be positive ish as well...
[18:00] <cm13g09> (waiting for the batteries to beep and tell me they're cooked
[18:04] <maxmed> who do I contact if I want to launch from the churchill site at Cambridge? Getting pretty close to launching (hopefully) ! Also anyone any ideas about this circuit, I don't want to plug my battery in and get a load of magic smoke!
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[18:07] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[18:24] <mikestir> maxmed: a lot of meters actually output the positive on the black wire when on their ohms range, so what you are seeing is probably reasonable
[18:24] <SHARP-SATS> B63 over Seoul but last aprs digi was from China. Are there no digis in Korea? What is the burst altitude of Leo's floaters? Alt seemed to be creeping up.
[18:25] <Flo_> Had one APRS scrambled packet here in Alaska on 434.5 @ 1700Z yesterday nothing since
[18:27] Nick change: jaymzx_away -> jaymzx
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[18:30] <SpeedEvil> SHARP-SATS: there seem to be none
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[18:30] <SpeedEvil> SHARP-SATS: there should be some in vladivostok - which should have been in range. Howver, there was earlier speculation it may be on the wrong frequency
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> SHARP-SATS: and they're floaters - they won't burst naturally
[18:31] <SHARP-SATS> Just checked aprs.fi. Almost no aprs activity around Seoul but the ports in south east Korea show a lot of ship traffic. I guess we wait till its over Japan or N. America.
[18:32] <SpeedEvil> hysplit shows it missing japan and following the russian coast
[18:32] <amell> Flo_: any idea who/what the packet was from?
[18:33] <amell> maxmed: why do you want to launch at churchill?
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[18:34] <SpeedEvil> amell: getting your own launch site takes a long time to get approved
[18:34] <amell> yes, just wonderign why not elsworth
[18:35] <amell> then i can listen to it on the ground :)
[18:35] <daveake> I didn't have to wait long for permission for my new place
[18:35] <daveake> Maybe I have Frequent Flier status :p
[18:36] <SpeedEvil> Or just go pico
[18:37] <maxmed> what's pico?
[18:37] <amell> 2m or under at any point in the flight
[18:37] <mikestir> s/any/all/
[18:38] <amell> LDSD onboard video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yRWhu0UGYw
[18:38] <maxmed> 2m balloon diamter?
[18:38] <amell> everything
[18:39] <maxmed> oh so 2m from top to bottom when balloon is fully inflated
[18:39] <mikestir> the whole lot has to fit in a 2x2x2m cube
[18:40] <amell> never seen a balute before...
[18:41] <amell> wow. so basically the chute completely shredded.
[18:45] <maxmed> Is there any advantage to Elsworth over Churchill?
[18:46] <amell> its countryside.
[18:46] <amell> easy to get to.
[18:46] <amell> easy to take a slash while youre filling...
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[18:48] <maxmed> Who do I have to speak to/ ask permission from to launch from Elsworth?
[18:48] <amell> Rocketboy
[18:48] <amell> when do you want to launch?
[18:49] <myier> is it possible to have a 3 day launch window?
[18:49] <maxmed> Not sure yet, around the end of August, obviously depends on winds!
[18:52] <maxmed> Does rocketboy come on here much? Am I better asking on the mailing list?
[18:53] <daveake> He's not here often
[18:53] <maxmed> Is there a better way to contact him?
[18:54] <amell> email him
[18:54] <maxmed> On what address?
[18:54] <amell> its on http://www.randomengineering.co.uk/ somewhere
[18:55] <adamgreig> maxmed: churchill is also pretty easy to get too, what with being just off the motorway
[18:55] <adamgreig> and has actual toilets...
[18:55] <daveake> :)
[18:56] <amell> nowt wrong with keeping a bucket in your boot.
[18:56] <daveake> But then, you need to know which way the wind is blowing ...
[18:56] <amell> you can launch in all directions at elsworth
[18:56] <mattbrejza> and steve doesnt need to drive across a couple of counties to get to it
[18:57] <adamgreig> have you ever been to churchill, amell? :P you can launch in all directions there quite readily
[18:57] <adamgreig> it's a huge open field....
[18:57] <amell> ive never been to churchill
[18:57] <mattbrejza> that didnt stop us almost hitting the top of the gym
[18:57] <adamgreig> :P
[18:57] <amell> because I can launch at elsworth lol
[18:58] <amell> and i can check my payload is working before release, because my home rig hears it on the ground
[18:58] <maxmed> And who is the contact for launches at Churchill?
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[18:59] <amell> adamgreig is the contact, apparently
[19:00] <adamgreig> contact@cusf.co.uk
[19:00] <maxmed> ahh thats convenient! How far in advance do you have to request permission? I've also heard you have to register the launch somewhere before hand but don't know where/how?
[19:01] <amell> where are you based maxmed?
[19:01] <maxmed> Tonbridge, Kent
[19:02] <amell> cambridge area probably your best bet then
[19:02] <adamgreig> for CUSF we have a full time permission to launch so the main thing is coordinating having someone around to be present for notam reasons
[19:02] <amell> pico floater? if so you can launch it from your back garden
[19:02] <adamgreig> the launch registering is for the habitat tracking system, for which see http://habitat.habhub.org/genpayload/
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[19:32] <maxmed> ok great, got my payload wired up today and initial tests look good, made my parachute aswell today, bit heavier than I'd like but if it prooves a big problem I'll just use a streamer next time. My big box of weather balloons also arrived the other day, look a bit old but got them for a great price and have 11 so I'll see how it goes, expect they may burst a bit prematurely but ahwell
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[19:39] <Laurenceb__> no B-66 in Russia :(
[19:39] <Laurenceb__> erm B-63
[19:40] <Laurenceb__> i wonder if this is a frequency zone issue
[19:40] <Laurenceb__> it might not have retuned
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[19:45] <Lunar_Lander> yay South Korea
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[20:10] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar, do you plan to make a page about B-63?
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[20:30] <G0WXI_Graeme> Hi, I've just submitted a flight doc for this coming Wed, 13th Aug, flight is G-06, a pico floater, could someone approve for me, Thanks
[20:30] <adamgreig> got the doc id?
[20:31] <adamgreig> found it
[20:31] <adamgreig> for a floater, you've only set it to a single day of window
[20:31] <adamgreig> so habitat will stop accepting telemetry from it at midnight on the 13th
[20:33] <G0WXI_Graeme> OK, I'll update it, with the 3day window
[20:35] <G0WXI_Graeme> <adamgreig> Hi, I've extended it to run to Friday, that should be enough to outlast my battery, Thanks
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[20:40] <amell> so have we decided whether b-64 has come down? 8d18h since we last heard from it
[20:40] <adamgreig> G0WXI_Graeme: great, approved
[20:41] <amell> b-63 completely smashed the duration record
[20:41] <snelly> I wonder if Great Successor had anything to do with B-63's silence
[20:43] <snelly> I wonder if it shows on radar. There are a lot of paranoid people watching that airspace
[20:45] <G0WXI_Graeme> adamgreig: Many Thanks
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[20:52] <SpeedEvil> amell: Statistically, it's pretty likely that one of 63,4,6 is still up
[20:52] <amell> i have no doubt that 3 is up
[20:52] <SA6BSS> amell: b-66 was absent for 12 days before it showed up
[20:52] <amell> good point
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[21:28] <gurgalof> I want a long life floater like that with a pressure sensor
[21:29] <gurgalof> maybe it's time to build one, but I can't launch it here
[21:32] <SpeedEvil> where are you?
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[23:12] <Laurenceb__> http://winfred-lu.blogspot.ch/2014/05/ugfx-notepad-on-stm32f429i-discovery.html
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[23:58] <ian_> 'join #habhub
[00:00] --- Mon Aug 11 2014