highaltitude.log.20140805

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[05:29] <andy_vk3yt> hi guys
[05:31] <andy_vk3yt> a few people sent me emails mentioning it was mentioned on #highaltitude that I was fudging the picospace record on ARHAB
[05:31] <andy_vk3yt> I might have made a mistake but I re-checked and that seemed ok to me
[05:32] <andy_vk3yt> can someone please give me a sanity check?
[05:33] <andy_vk3yt> travelled distance was 16,274km. ARHAB distance was 8777 miles which is 14125km
[05:34] <andy_vk3yt> which is the great circle distance
[05:36] <andy_vk3yt> Am I right, or is there something fundamentally wrong with my understanding?
[05:46] <Upu> hey andy_vk3yt
[05:46] <andy_vk3yt> Hi Upu
[05:46] <Upu> we have been deciding which one to use
[05:46] <Upu> greater circle always worked for us
[05:46] <Upu> then leo flew round the world
[05:47] <Upu> ARHAB have always been greater circle
[05:47] <andy_vk3yt> I haven't got a change to congratulate Leo, that was all over the news here!
[05:47] <Upu> its not fudging
[05:48] <Upu> you just need to be claiming like for like
[05:48] <Upu> but we need to consider if thats the correct thing to be using now
[05:48] <andy_vk3yt> I thought I was Upu, I was using great circle distance
[05:48] <Upu> sure it wasn't the track length ?
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[05:49] <andy_vk3yt> yep, tracked length is 16,274km
[05:49] <andy_vk3yt> great circle distance is 14125km
[05:49] <Upu> ok
[05:50] <Upu> Well I guess its up to you and Leo to decide which one to use
[05:51] <andy_vk3yt> I just want to make sure I didn't make a mistake
[05:51] <Upu> I've not checked the maths, I know Leo has used greater circle in the past
[05:52] <andy_vk3yt> so sounds like I am ok :)
[05:52] <Upu> you about for a bit ?
[05:53] <andy_vk3yt> yes Upu
[05:54] <Upu> Lets see what LeoBodnar has to say when he turns up, him and you are the ones doing the longest flights atm so you may as well agree on what frame of reference to use the reference
[05:55] <andy_vk3yt> I thought it would be Keith's call as he runs the ARHAB web site, and currently it is explicitly stated "Great Circle Distance"
[05:57] <andy_vk3yt> Leo has set the bar pretty high it doesn't matter which way you look at his records are here to stay, at least from the perspective of being first
[06:00] <andy_vk3yt> from my point of view the "record fudging" misunderstanding has nothing to do with Leo's records. Even at another 2000km extra it doesn't make a dent to what Leo has done.
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[06:02] <andy_vk3yt> I was just not expecting for me to hear from third parties that I was fudging the records
[06:03] <andy_vk3yt> s/i was/it was/
[06:03] <andy_vk3yt> that was never the intention
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[06:50] <F1VJQ> Good morning
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[07:05] <LeoBodnar> morning chaps
[07:06] <LeoBodnar> re ARHAB I think Keith is looking at the way he runs the records tables
[07:07] <LeoBodnar> i'd be happy with whatever he is coming up with
[07:07] <andy_vk3yt> Hi Leo
[07:07] <F1VJQ> LeoBodnar Good morning
[07:07] <andy_vk3yt> Congrats on the flights :)
[07:07] <LeoBodnar> Hi andy :D
[07:07] <LeoBodnar> thanks!
[07:07] <andy_vk3yt> pretty amazing work!
[07:08] <LeoBodnar> lol yours is 1st place :D
[07:08] <andy_vk3yt> Haha not for long!
[07:08] <LeoBodnar> is PS-13 due to show up in Oz?
[07:08] <LeoBodnar> sorry for kerfuffle
[07:08] <andy_vk3yt> probbaly not :(
[07:08] <F1VJQ> LeoBodnar I think point to point distances cumulative are best way to record distance flown
[07:09] <LeoBodnar> Keith needs to define the rules
[07:09] <LeoBodnar> was it not due to circle over Africa for some time?
[07:09] <andy_vk3yt> it doesn't affect you!
[07:10] <F1VJQ> my igate was running all night and still is running, but nothing seen out over Bay of Biscay yet
[07:10] <LeoBodnar> I am going to work shortly
[07:10] <LeoBodnar> Bay of Biscuits
[07:10] <F1VJQ> Black hole of 144.8
[07:10] <andy_vk3yt> Can I get some sanity check from you Leo?
[07:10] <LeoBodnar> Distance flown is going to be quite a pain to calculate
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[07:11] <LeoBodnar> yeah?
[07:11] <andy_vk3yt> my distance was 14k (great circle), and Keith convert that to 8777miles, that sounds about right ?
[07:11] <LeoBodnar> for example GPS glitches need to be taken out
[07:11] <LeoBodnar> yep
[07:11] <F1VJQ> waypoint a to waypoint b + waypoint b to waypoint c +.........etc
[07:12] <andy_vk3yt> Cool thanks
[07:13] <LeoBodnar> so all the tracks would need manual checks to take out jumps
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[07:13] <LeoBodnar> one glitch with GPS going to 0,0 could affect the distance massively
[07:13] <andy_vk3yt> LeoBodnar: We mentioned you the other day, Rob GW0MOH/VK2GOM said he knew you from engineering circles but didn't know had your licence :)
[07:14] <LeoBodnar> we have seen this happening
[07:14] <LeoBodnar> oh cool :D small world!
[07:14] <LeoBodnar> are you coming to the conf?
[07:15] <andy_vk3yt> me? not this time, would love to come one day!
[07:15] <F1VJQ> 14000km = 8699 miles
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[07:15] <LeoBodnar> come over here it's English summer now
[07:15] <LeoBodnar> which only happens every 200 years
[07:15] <andy_vk3yt> haha it is freezing cold here
[07:16] <LeoBodnar> are you usually on some channel?
[07:17] <UpuWork> "freezing" = 15'C ?
[07:17] <andy_vk3yt> F1VJQ: exact number was 14124.3 according to http://williams.best.vwh.net/gccalc.htm
[07:17] <LeoBodnar> i was trying to catch you on #picospace to ask about the ARHAB records as Keith is collecting opinions on GPSL
[07:17] <andy_vk3yt> LeoBodnar: No I am not normally on any channels, just flat out with works
[07:18] <LeoBodnar> Freezing Upu == need fur T-shirt
[07:18] <F1VJQ> 8776.43
[07:18] <UpuWork> :)
[07:18] <andy_vk3yt> UpuWork: around 0-1 now :)
[07:18] <LeoBodnar> ah OK
[07:18] <UpuWork> wow
[07:18] <UpuWork> you may get this white stuff fall out of the sky
[07:18] <UpuWork> don't be alarmed its called snow
[07:19] <andy_vk3yt> Yes we do have that white stuff on the hills :)
[07:19] <F1VJQ> "global warming BLX"
[07:19] <LeoBodnar> yeah F1VJQ i think we have figured it out. ARHAB lists 8777 miles and 16274km
[07:19] <LeoBodnar> do you have a mail list andy_vk3yt ?
[07:20] <andy_vk3yt> LeoBodnar: #picospace is just a launch chat place. We initially used #highaltitude but felt guilty with adding too much noise to your channel
[07:20] <LeoBodnar> haha srsly
[07:20] <LeoBodnar> too much balloon talk on #ha
[07:20] <LeoBodnar> might kill it
[07:20] <andy_vk3yt> We didn't really create a new chat room :)
[07:21] <LeoBodnar> Darkside said the re was adiscussion on some mailing list
[07:21] <andy_vk3yt> yes I have a mailing list for launch notices
[07:21] <LeoBodnar> on your webpage?
[07:22] <andy_vk3yt> yes, can subscribe there, or send me an email an@comms.net.au
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[07:22] <LeoBodnar> every time i go to #picospace people are already going home :D
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[07:22] <LeoBodnar> coolio
[07:22] <andy_vk3yt> I also send notice to Australia APRS news group
[07:22] <LeoBodnar> ok
[07:22] <andy_vk3yt> Sorry about the #picospace confusion, we tried to talk to you a few times but thought you were falling asleep :)
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[07:23] <LeoBodnar> Well Keith is asking for ideas on what records to claculate and how
[07:23] <LeoBodnar> are you on GPSL?
[07:24] <andy_vk3yt> no i am not. I think total distance is fair
[07:24] <andy_vk3yt> but like what you said need to be smoothed out
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[07:24] <LeoBodnar> you can post to [GPSL] your ideas
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[07:25] <cipher_> so no way to convert atm to litres?
[07:25] <LeoBodnar> he proposed some rules on announcing flights, timeframe to submit stuff, etc
[07:25] <andy_vk3yt> maybe I should check out GPSL
[07:25] <LeoBodnar> or just email him direct
[07:25] <LeoBodnar> i can forward you relevant emails from GPSL
[07:26] <cipher_> baloon guy asked to check after I explained everything to him
[07:26] <LeoBodnar> and you can just email Keith directly
[07:26] <andy_vk3yt> cool, yes please
[07:27] <LeoBodnar> so it does not feel like the rules we changed without asking people who are using them
[07:27] <LeoBodnar> okie
[07:27] <LeoBodnar> i am ruching to work
[07:27] <LeoBodnar> rushing
[07:27] <andy_vk3yt> See ya
[07:27] <LeoBodnar> cu later! good luck with NZ flight
[07:29] <andy_vk3yt> thanks
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[07:34] <cipher_> no way to convert atm to litres?
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[07:37] <amell> not with any reasonable accuracy, no
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[07:40] <mfa298> myier: there's also vbplug on windows which I think is free or you can potentially use stereo mix which is built in (but means all your audio is mixed together)
[07:42] <LeoBodnar> morn
[07:42] <UpuWork> ok conference attendees
[07:43] <UpuWork> only
[07:43] <UpuWork> Do you have any specific curiosities about Loon ?
[07:43] <UpuWork> not my words
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[07:43] <cipher_> i guess you mean very inaccurate
[07:44] <daveake> "Will you be adding APRS to pick up Leo-Air"
[07:44] <amell> Upuwork: when will Google fund UKHAS to do this properly?
[07:44] <UpuWork> sensible questions :)
[07:44] <LeoBodnar> i do
[07:44] <daveake> damn
[07:44] <UpuWork> err never amell ?
[07:45] <LeoBodnar> how does it work?
[07:45] <UpuWork> I do it properly every time I launch
[07:45] <amell> Well, if you dont ask...
[07:45] <UpuWork> thats it Leo how does it work ? :)
[07:45] <LeoBodnar> also
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[07:46] <LeoBodnar> "Google's Project Loon balloon circles Earth in a record 22 days"
[07:46] <amell> is it rich de vaul coming to conference?
[07:47] <LeoBodnar> sup with "record"? 22 days seems like eternity for their stuff
[07:47] <amell> they obviously need to hire the Bodnar to sort their stuff
[07:48] <Nickle_> Leo. With your balloon it is hard tracking over oceans. Do you store the track on the balloon and resend when over land?
[07:48] <UpuWork> Dan Bowen amell
[07:48] <craag_philcrump> Do they have backup communications when the balloon is out of range of ground stations?
[07:49] <UpuWork> ok
[07:49] <UpuWork> any more ?
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[07:49] <UpuWork> I'm asking what batteries are on it and how they regulate the charging, are they heated etc
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[07:50] <amell> what altitude is loon float at?
[07:50] <LeoBodnar> Nickle_: there is a backlog stored in memory and downloaded with current positions
[07:50] <UpuWork> that might be public amell already
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[07:50] <LeoBodnar> ~20km from memory
[07:50] <amell> 20km apparently
[07:51] <amell> Project Loon uses software algorithms to determine where its balloons need to go, then moves each one into a layer of wind blowing in the right direction. By moving with the wind, the balloons can be arranged to form one large communications network.
[07:51] <amell> oh.
[07:51] <mfa298> I thought amell was meaning when will google fund UKHAS so we can do Loon properly for them.
[07:51] <craag_philcrump> I'd be interested to know what their power budget is, and whether they have enough battery to run 100% each night.
[07:51] <amell> so if the balloon is moving up and down, it is presumably venting helium?
[07:51] <LeoBodnar> pumping Helium into a pressurised vesel i reckon
[07:52] <LeoBodnar> vessel
[07:52] <Laurenceb__> no
[07:52] <LeoBodnar> and releasing it back
[07:52] <Laurenceb__> their is an air sack inside the envelope
[07:52] <Laurenceb__> it pumps air in and out of that
[07:52] <craag_philcrump> Also what's the longest float they've had? - have they encountered any interesting issues with extended operation?
[07:52] <LeoBodnar> so they control superpressure?
[07:52] <Laurenceb__> no
[07:52] <amell> but how does that vary neck lift?
[07:52] <Laurenceb__> they control effective volume
[07:52] <amell> oh.
[07:52] <Laurenceb__> which alters float altitude
[07:53] <craag_philcrump> Can they do OTA firmware updates? :)
[07:53] <Laurenceb__> lol haxored
[07:53] <amell> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFUjp495gUA is quite informative
[07:53] <LeoBodnar> but with ideal gas equation same pressure and same temperature = same volume
[07:54] <amell> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4D0c6yQftc covers the up and down stuff.
[07:54] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar: volume of hydrogen/He is changed
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[07:54] <Laurenceb__> its a bit more complex than that
[07:55] <Laurenceb__> temporarily the presure increases a little
[07:55] <Laurenceb__> then it reaches a new float altitude
[07:55] <LeoBodnar> that's what i meant
[07:55] <amell> see the pump in the video i just posted
[07:55] <amell> looks heavy!
[07:55] <Laurenceb__> ooh
[07:55] <LeoBodnar> they pressurise the main anvelope
[07:55] <Laurenceb__> yeah i was looking at pumps for doing this on pico
[07:55] <Laurenceb__> looked like 15grams for the entire system
[07:56] <Laurenceb__> it seems like a very smart way to do altitude control
[07:57] <Laurenceb__> but im sure they thought long and hard about the problem :D
[07:57] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9sTMJJggZA - SpaceX/Asiasat
[07:57] <SpeedEvil> 3 mins
[07:58] <LeoBodnar> well they effectively controlling the volume of He/H2
[07:58] <Laurenceb__> yes
[07:58] <Laurenceb__> bbl
[07:58] <LeoBodnar> ok, head sorted
[07:59] Action: LazyLeopard growls at new Google Maps and restores the "Use the OLD style that actually works, dammit!" cookie...
[08:00] <LazyLeopard> Well, perhaps apply s/actually works/isn't quite so frustratingly obtuse/
[08:00] <F1VJQ> LazyLeopard they haven't heard of backward compatibility.....
[08:01] <LazyLeopard> They've actually finally got a "show terrain" into the new one, but the toggle to switch it on is buried behind something that needs you switch off the location markers to get to it...
[08:02] <F1VJQ> new one = V3?
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[08:03] <LazyLeopard> Oh, I'm looking at a marker somewhere in the wilderness. Is it on a hill or in a valley? Ah, finally turned terrain on, now where's the marker gone?
[08:05] <F1VJQ> LazyLeopard have a look at this page... and switch terrain on/off >>> http://www.beaconspot.eu/beaconcm.php?beaconcall=ED1YCA&bandmhz=144.
[08:06] <F1VJQ> that works as intended
[08:06] <LazyLeopard> Yep. Old-style Google Maps.
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[08:07] <F1VJQ> That's V3
[08:07] <javier_> hi to all!
[08:07] <LazyLeopard> The terrain toggle there is old-style easily accessible.
[08:08] <javier_> News about B-63?
[08:09] <F1VJQ> LazyLeopard have you an example of your malfunctioning map?
[08:09] <LazyLeopard> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=52.880100250244,+-3.3819000720978&layer=&ie=UTF8&z=12&t=h&om=1&iwloc=addr
[08:10] <javier_> IT can be on trip to the Iberian peninsula
[08:10] <LazyLeopard> I'm talking maps.google.com itself...
[08:11] <F1VJQ> LazyLeopard I haven't seen that sort of display
[08:11] <LazyLeopard> Every so often I find myself being sent to the "new" version...
[08:11] <fsphil> yea I still prefer the classic maps
[08:11] <fsphil> and mostly for the terrain mode
[08:11] <fsphil> the new one keeps covering up the map with UI crap too
[08:11] <fsphil> no I don't want to see photos of the area
[08:12] <LazyLeopard> Each time it happens I have a look around to see whether they've finally added the functions I consider essential.
[08:12] <F1VJQ> please define "new one" - Is V3 not the latest?
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[08:13] <LazyLeopard> They're getting closer, but the way they've decided to allow switching between layers seems to miss the point completely...
[08:14] <fsphil> if the little map/satellite box also had terrain in it, it wouldn't be so bad
[08:14] <LazyLeopard> F1VJQ I'm talking maps.google.com itself, not the "embed a map in your website API".
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[08:14] <F1VJQ> LazyLeopard OK....
[08:14] <LazyLeopard> fsphil: Yeah, they need the layer toggles one-click accessible.
[08:15] <LazyLeopard> ...not "first close the search box and then we'll let you switch the toggles".
[08:16] <LazyLeopard> ..."(Oh, by the way, when you close the search box we'll delete all the markers.)"
[08:17] Action: LazyLeopard retires, muttering, to get more tea.
[08:19] <F1VJQ> I have visited that area round Llanrheadr ym mochnant...place of the pigs hihi
[08:20] <F1VJQ> javier B-64 seems to be at sea still
[08:20] <F1VJQ> B-63 I mean
[08:23] <F1VJQ> LazyLeopard That map is sure user unfriendly!
[08:28] <LazyLeopard> Yeah. Luckily, somewhere buried in the settings (about ten clicks down) there's a way to return to "Classic Google Maps".... ;)
[08:32] <F1VJQ> :-)
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[08:37] <LeoBodnar> is this about new Hysplit options?
[08:38] <LeoBodnar> the "Trajectory animation" option just nukes my machine
[08:38] <LeoBodnar> they started using Mapquest
[08:39] <F1VJQ> B-66 following a similar track to B-64 - quite uncanny
[08:41] <F1VJQ> and where has B-64 got to? what is there up there in Arctic Russia... no APRS cover!
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[09:01] <LeoBodnar> the Big Unknown
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[09:22] <F1VJQ> LeoBodnar B-64 back in range....
[09:23] <F1VJQ> B-63 I mean
[09:24] <F1VJQ> B-63 back on tracking via CQ0PAR
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[09:29] <Laurenceb_> why did B-66 aprs peter out?
[09:30] <F1VJQ> +++++++++++++++++++++++++== B-63 back on map ++++++++++++++++++++++++
[09:31] <F1VJQ> B-66 missed a few as it entered Saskatchewan, but APRS seems to be current now
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[09:32] <F1VJQ> map seems odd though
[09:32] <Laurenceb_> B-63 passes 4 weeks
[09:32] <F1VJQ> yes, amazing!
[09:33] <mattbrejza> so crossing the leo meridian early tomorrow morning it seems
[09:33] <F1VJQ> looks as if I MAY get to hear it!
[09:33] <Laurenceb_> ah loon is centrogular pump
[09:33] <Laurenceb_> i cant spell
[09:33] <F1VJQ> Isn't Laurence sometimes abbreviated to Lol?
[09:33] <Laurenceb_> yes
[09:33] <F1VJQ> LOL
[09:34] <F1VJQ> centrogular - Hmm
[09:34] <Laurenceb_> thats me
[09:34] <LeoBodnar> somebody submit corrupted packets into APRS-IS network [10:29] <Laurenceb_> why did B-66 aprs peter out?
[09:34] <Laurenceb_> centrifugal
[09:34] <Laurenceb_> ah
[09:34] <Laurenceb_> that thing looks a pita to manufacture
[09:35] <LeoBodnar> they are protected by CRC but you can force igateing software to bypass that
[09:35] <Laurenceb_> ah
[09:35] <Laurenceb_> looks like loon is brushless motor and fan, then silicone diaphragm valves for dump
[09:35] <F1VJQ> "someone" - malicious, or faulty igate software?
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[09:36] <Laurenceb_> i wonder if this could scale to pico
[09:36] <F1VJQ> interesting thought
[09:36] <F1VJQ> balloon in a balloon....
[09:36] <Laurenceb_> rpm would need to scale with 1/sqrt(rotor diameter)
[09:37] <LeoBodnar> just an igate setings too relaxed
[09:37] Action: Laurenceb_ does some maths
[09:38] <LeoBodnar> generally i would agree with displaying broken packets on the local screen but not feeding them into the network
[09:39] <fsphil> B-63 going to get anywhere near the UK?
[09:40] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[09:40] <Laurenceb_> centrifugal fails horribly
[09:41] <Laurenceb_> 500Pa with a 4cm diameter rotor at 20krpm and 12Km altitude
[09:41] <fsphil> not enough pressure?
[09:41] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[09:41] <Laurenceb_> works nicely at loon scale
[09:41] <LeoBodnar> thanks F1VJQ
[09:41] <LeoBodnar> centrifugal fan for overpressure? oO
[09:42] <F1VJQ> I have my 12 ele in direction of B-63 but it is still about 1200km away :-( looks like it is coming this way though
[09:42] <LeoBodnar> i think scaling is very unfavourable
[09:43] <LeoBodnar> isn't it growing like R^2 ?
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[09:43] <LeoBodnar> or dropping
[09:43] <LeoBodnar> at const RPM
[09:43] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar: when does the important log start?
[09:44] <LeoBodnar> it's on 0200UTC today now
[09:45] <DL7AD> yeah but between there has been not received a packet
[09:48] <Ron_G8FJG> just emailed VE5KKZ in Saskatchewan to listen out for B66
[09:50] <Laurenceb_> yes
[09:51] <Laurenceb_> R62
[09:51] <Laurenceb_> arg R^2
[09:55] <Laurenceb_> diy rotary vane might be feasible
[09:55] <Laurenceb_> for low mass
[09:56] <LeoBodnar> CF
[09:57] <Laurenceb_> http://www.faulhaber.com/Bilddatenbank/Applications/format1/fau_appl_hauchfein2_en.jpg
[09:57] <LeoBodnar> oh rotary vane
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[09:57] <Laurenceb_> genius
[09:57] <F1VJQ> Can B-66 duff telemtry position be removed?
[09:57] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Refresh the screen
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[09:59] <LeoBodnar> it's as weird as Mazda https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuId4nuxXaM
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[09:59] <F1VJQ> Geoff-G8DHE-M it still shows ballon and track at odds with each other even after refresh
[10:02] <F1VJQ> Geoff-G8DHE-M b-66 shown south of Saskatoon, but track extends as far as near Winnipeg
[10:04] <LeoBodnar> heh ARHAB lists duration in weeks-days-hours-minutes-seconds
[10:05] <LeoBodnar> so how long is one month when it comes to it?
[10:05] <Laurenceb_> 30.417 days
[10:05] <Laurenceb_> 30 days 10 hours
[10:05] <LeoBodnar> doesn't it reverse day and night in one month?
[10:06] <Laurenceb_> hmmm
[10:06] <Laurenceb_> 365/12
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[10:06] <Laurenceb_> is what i did
[10:07] <LeoBodnar> month-weeks-days-hours-minutes-seconds is worse than imperial
[10:07] <LeoBodnar> or we can introduce measures like "1 5/24 days"
[10:08] <LeoBodnar> so easy to use
[10:12] <LeoBodnar> if you put a distance markers on aprs.fi over North Korea and double-click on them, they have option "delete ruler"
[10:14] <DL7AD> :D
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[10:15] <LeoBodnar> I wonder if remaining free lift can be calculated from balloon mass and main altitude oscillation mode frequency
[10:15] <LeoBodnar> to monitor helium loss
[10:16] <LeoBodnar> but this needs a disturbance to cause oscillation
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[10:16] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar: there came recently a log-packet.
[10:17] <DL7AD> today 80:00
[10:17] <DL7AD> today 08:00
[10:18] <LeoBodnar> yes
[10:21] <Laurenceb_> so 2 days 7 hours to a "month" flight for B-63
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[10:26] <F1VJQ> a month is variable so should not feature, unless it is defined as 28 days
[10:26] <DL7AD> true
[10:29] <Laurenceb_> 30 days, 10 hours seems reasonable
[10:29] <F1VJQ> or 4 weeks
[10:30] <Laurenceb_> if very silly
[10:31] <F1VJQ> yes... days/hrs is OK
[10:31] <F1VJQ> or weeks/days/hrs
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[10:31] <adamgreig> is years ok? what about leap years...
[10:31] <Laurenceb_> lol
[10:31] <F1VJQ> but not month/week/days/hours
[10:31] <adamgreig> even days have issues with leap seconds
[10:31] <adamgreig> some days are 86401 seconds long
[10:31] <Laurenceb_> what is time
[10:31] <F1VJQ> months and years not required since variable
[10:32] <adamgreig> should probably just use ks and Ms
[10:32] <F1VJQ> 4 weeks or 52 weeks seems acceptable to me
[10:32] <adamgreig> yes I think I agree
[10:33] <adamgreig> but you could have 3.14E+07 seconds instead of 52 weeks
[10:33] <adamgreig> (it's easy to remember because it's basically pi!)
[10:34] <F1VJQ> 3.14E+07 seconds - Hmmm can I do that in my head?
[10:35] <LeoBodnar> should we redeifine year as À*10^7 sends?
[10:35] <LeoBodnar> seconds
[10:35] <adamgreig> shame it's irrational
[10:35] <adamgreig> that'd make a complete mess of everything
[10:35] <LeoBodnar> good, isn't that the reason for all the changes?
[10:36] <adamgreig> I think all our other units of time are at least strictly rational
[10:36] <adamgreig> and they're bad enough
[10:36] <LeoBodnar> with occasional nudge
[10:41] <mfa298> adamgreig: I think occasionally there's even days with 86402 seconds.
[10:42] <adamgreig> that's very rare
[10:42] <adamgreig> also 86399 seconds
[10:42] <adamgreig> I don't think there has ever been 86402 seconds - just, there could in theory be
[10:42] <adamgreig> perhaps not for much longer if we abolish the leap second
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[10:44] <LeoBodnar> how much energy is required to control the earth roation to within 1sec per 10 years?
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[10:44] <adamgreig> really quite a lot
[10:44] <adamgreig> depends where you apply it
[10:45] <adamgreig> well I guess no it doesn't
[10:45] <gonzo__> you are thinking of another project leo?
[10:45] <LeoBodnar> surely it's easier to nudge the earth with a nuke thank keep changing the clocks
[10:45] <mfa298> according to wikipedia there's been 25 +ve leap seconds since 1972. No -ve and no double one (I might have been wrong on those - it might have just been an allowance in some library I was using just in case)
[10:45] <adamgreig> mfa298: they can happen but haven't
[10:45] <adamgreig> hmmm
[10:46] <F1VJQ> LeoBodnar back to N Korea then!
[10:46] <adamgreig> actually the time.h man page suggests that
[10:46] <adamgreig> The range [0,60] seconds allows for positive or negative leap seconds. The formal definition of UTC does not permit double leap seconds, so all mention of double leap seconds has been removed, and the range shortened from the former [0,61] seconds seen in previous versions of POSIX.
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[10:47] <adamgreig> so I guess we can't have double leap seconds any more!
[10:47] <F1VJQ> B-66 track getting worse... another corrupt packet
[10:47] <mfa298> reading a couple of pages on the web suggested that ANSI C got it wrong
[10:48] <mfa298> there's a few references if you search for double on http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/leapsecs/timescales.html
[10:49] <adamgreig> mm, reading it now
[10:50] <mfa298> I didn't read much other than the bits around mentions of double leap seconds
[10:50] <LeoBodnar> just now F1VJQ ?
[10:50] Action: amell is back from his third interview so far this week :)
[10:51] <amell> Wonder how hard it would be to hack a loon and fly it over to Leobodnars back yard.
[10:52] <amell> Laurenceb_: Is it actually possible to make a loon land again using the centrifugal pump while preserving the helium?
[10:52] <Laurenceb_> amell: in theory yes
[10:53] <Laurenceb_> depends on the size of the internal membrane tho
[10:53] <amell> so a 100g pawan inside a 1600g hwoyee?
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[10:54] <DL7AD> hehe KT5TK did that before :P
[10:54] <amell> did he? to what end? altitude control?
[10:54] <Laurenceb_> it needs to be able to pressurize
[10:55] <DL7AD> amell: it ended in a slow descent
[10:55] <amell> surely an RC EDF fan could be used to provide pressure
[10:56] <Laurenceb_> unlikely
[10:57] <amell> they can generate quite a bit of pressure...
[10:58] <Laurenceb_> not 5kPa at 20kPa ambient
[10:58] <Laurenceb_> also too heavy for pico
[10:59] <LeoBodnar> you needs SP outside envelope
[10:59] <LeoBodnar> if it keeps expanding it's useless
[10:59] <LeoBodnar> so no latex inside the latex
[10:59] <SpeedEvil> 5kPa at 20kPa ambient is borderline possible
[11:00] <SpeedEvil> But - not in the mass
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[11:00] Action: SpeedEvil has been looking at martian quadcopters - it's not quite insane
[11:00] <amell> you can get 20mm EDF at 60000rpm
[11:01] <amell> i think the challenge is the power consumption.
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[11:03] <malgar> <LeoBodnar> I wonder if remaining free lift can be calculated from balloon mass and main altitude oscillation mode frequency > a barometer on board could help. Would it be possible in the next launches?
[11:03] <amell> did jededu launch his pico yet? im a bit confused as his email states launch at 9am
[11:04] <gonzo__> it didn't really give much idea as to the day either
[11:04] <amell> yes, the email title did say launch announcement 4/8
[11:04] <craag_philcrump> it gave the day as yesterday :P
[11:04] <amell> which didnt help when email was sent at 8pm.
[11:04] <craag_philcrump> I think he was on last night making reference to 'tomorrow' though
[11:04] <craag_philcrump> ie today
[11:04] <amell> jededu ping -
[11:04] <SpeedEvil> malgar: yes - barometers on board might be pretty interesting
[11:04] <Laurenceb_> its been done
[11:05] <Laurenceb_> SP3OSJ iirc
[11:05] <SpeedEvil> malgar: especially if you have one in and one out of the envelope
[11:05] <Laurenceb_> you can see two oscillations
[11:05] <amell> maybe he tried to get the 100g pawan over his head, and thats why he didnt launch
[11:05] <Laurenceb_> bouyancy and atmospheric
[11:05] <malgar> SpeedEvil: for sure but I'm not sure that inside the envelope is so easy to implement
[11:05] <SpeedEvil> malgar: Oh - it's not.
[11:06] <amell> malgar: why not? wire up through the neck?
[11:06] <SpeedEvil> amell: getting it 100% leak-tight
[11:06] <malgar> amell: ok, but I'm afraind that leakage would be massive
[11:06] <SpeedEvil> amell: It's got to withstand a PSI or so pressure difference without leaking a few litres of helium in a couple of weeks
[11:06] <malgar> could work for a up and down flight of few hours
[11:06] <amell> i cant see why not, seeing as we can seal necks now.
[11:07] <SpeedEvil> amell: For a small floater, the problem is _way_ worse than a latex.
[11:07] <SpeedEvil> As the density is lots higher, as well as the duration and internal pressure.
[11:07] <amell> ok youre talking about picos
[11:07] <SpeedEvil> yes
[11:07] <amell> nothing a gob of epoxy wont solve?
[11:08] <SpeedEvil> Epoxy doesn't seal well to thin plastic film
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[11:08] <SpeedEvil> And -40C doesn't help
[11:08] <malgar> SpeedEvil: I have and idea... a necklace with strain gauge sensor *outside* the envelope
[11:09] <SpeedEvil> In principle - sure.
[11:09] <LeoBodnar> an early B had one
[11:09] <SpeedEvil> It's all possible - is it easy - not really
[11:09] <LeoBodnar> wasn't conclusive though
[11:09] <SpeedEvil> I do wonder about a mic on the balloon
[11:09] <amell> strain gauge sensor sounds like a recipe for a bursh
[11:09] <amell> burst even
[11:10] <SpeedEvil> but that comes with rather more signal processing requirements
[11:10] <malgar> :P
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[11:10] <malgar> LeoBodnar: you did an internal barometer in the first launches?
[11:10] Action: amell contemplates measuring pressure with a laser diode
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[11:10] <LeoBodnar> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-5/
[11:11] <malgar> amell: how eould it work?
[11:11] <malgar> would
[11:11] <amell> by measuring the variation of something inside the balloon.
[11:12] <malgar> LeoBodnar: very interesting
[11:12] <SpeedEvil> indeed
[11:13] <malgar> anyway.. I see really tiny variations of altitude.. I think that leakage is very low at the moment. What do you think?
[11:13] Action: SpeedEvil ponders again putting the payload in the (transparent) balloon.
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[11:13] <SpeedEvil> Well, leakage must be low enough that the B*'s are all still superpressured, yes
[11:14] Action: amell notes the circular ground plane on B-6
[11:14] <amell> B-5
[11:14] <SpeedEvil> Once superpressure is lost, it will drop, and perhaps intermittently rise again
[11:15] <LeoBodnar> perhaps it will start dipping before sunrise due to IR cooling
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[11:15] Nick change: DrLuke__ -> DrLuke
[11:15] <amell> did you plot the internal pressure and temp over the course of the flight? Be interested to see that on the B-5 page too
[11:16] <malgar> SpeedEvil: so you say that once it is in superpressure, superpressure values didn't change the height?
[11:17] <SpeedEvil> malgar: Sort-of
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[11:17] <malgar> SpeedEvil: maybe later I'll try some calculation
[11:17] <SpeedEvil> Neglecting temperature, a superpressure balloon will stay at one atmospheric pressure.
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> Or more correctly - a balloon of constant density will stay at one atmospheric density
[11:18] <malgar> right
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[11:18] <Laurenceb_> thats why the air pump works so nicely
[11:18] <amell> hmm, could we force the balloon to rise by controlling temperature inside the envelope?
[11:18] <SpeedEvil> - humidity matters a bit too. In reality it's complicated as the balloon is not rigid - and temperature causes the internal pressure - and hence volume to vary a bit - causing the float altitude to vary
[11:18] <Laurenceb_> changes the density a lot
[11:18] <Laurenceb_> air is heavy
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Is a seperate air balloon an idea?
[11:19] <Laurenceb_> compared to H2
[11:19] <Laurenceb_> no
[11:19] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: rather than trying to put it inside teh main one?
[11:19] <Laurenceb_> air inside the main envelope is really effective
[11:19] <LeoBodnar> Lol @ B-6 payload description "2013-07-13 Long float attempt"
[11:19] <amell> a small heater inside the envelope?
[11:19] <Laurenceb_> as you are keeping volume the same
[11:19] <Laurenceb_> but swapping He or H2 for air
[11:19] <malgar> :D
[11:19] <Laurenceb_> so density changes a lot
[11:20] <Laurenceb_> changing float altitude a lot with a small volume of air
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Oh - I diddn't realise you meant to vent the lift gas
[11:20] <Laurenceb_> no
[11:20] <Laurenceb_> air in its own compartment inside
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> Ah - right
[11:20] <Laurenceb_> this is how Loon works
[11:20] <SpeedEvil> increasing pressure sort-of-vents it but not
[11:20] <LeoBodnar> Density [12:17] <SpeedEvil> Neglecting temperature, a superpressure balloon will stay at one atmospheric pressure.
[11:20] <LeoBodnar> ah "neglecting temperature.."
[11:21] <amell> so control temperature...
[11:21] <Laurenceb_> assuming a spherical cow
[11:21] <LeoBodnar> i suspect RH also plays tiny part
[11:21] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[11:21] <LeoBodnar> cow?
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: yeah - hence density, not pressure
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[11:21] <LeoBodnar> i have only blinked
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> Also, the yaardovsky effect.
[11:21] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_cow
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> (not really)
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> Oook!
[11:21] <SpeedEvil> s/k/h/
[11:22] <LeoBodnar> lol
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> Portugal has got B63
[11:22] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:22] <LeoBodnar> i need to make IRC window only 5 lines high
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> Headed for a nice trip over the med.
[11:23] <LeoBodnar> to stop commenting on stuff that is beyond visibility horison
[11:23] <LeoBodnar> that is about 30 seconds
[11:23] <SpeedEvil> :)
[11:23] <gonzo__> bugger me, just noticed that B66 has appeared again
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> you mean 3?
[11:24] <amell> and 6
[11:24] <SpeedEvil> 66 has been toodling across north america for a day or so now
[11:24] <gonzo__> are single world records too dull for you leo?!
[11:25] <SpeedEvil> 3 seems to be filling in more of the log
[11:25] <gonzo__> it was missing on mu snus, just refreshed and saw it
[11:25] <LeoBodnar> that's the problem with floaters
[11:25] <amell> when did we think B-64 might reappear?
[11:25] <LeoBodnar> in Soviet Russia balloons chase you
[11:28] <es5nhc> B66's track seems a bit crazy on snus
[11:28] <maxmed> Hi, I'm still having problems with my gps tracker. I'm using the TinyGPS library and a uBLOX MAX-7 Breakout With Sarantel Antenna connected to the hardware serial of my arduino pro mini 3.3v. The altitude keeps coming out as 9999999m which means TinyGPS has never seens a valid altitude. The GPS is running at 9600 baud, could the problem be serial overflow? Is there a way to fix this?
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[11:34] <SpeedEvil> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/141578_trj001.gif - well - that looks definite. (b64)
[11:34] <malgar> LeoBodnar: the visibility that B series is giving you, is also increasing your job business or you didn't noticed it at the moment?
[11:34] <amell> so it will either reappear in china or canada& that helps.
[11:34] <F1VJQ> <LeoBodnar> just now F1VJQ ? - sorry - I was at lunch - It was a comment on the nuke earth option!
[11:35] <malgar> SpeedEvil: LOL
[11:37] <LeoBodnar> malgar: I don't think i had any extra visibility or any extra business (that both suit me well)
[11:38] <malgar> :)
[11:38] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: I think you used old forecast data
[11:38] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: possibly
[11:38] Action: SpeedEvil is a hysplit-noob
[11:39] <LeoBodnar> don't split hairs
[11:43] <SpeedEvil> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/142112_trj001.gif - ah - right. This is clearly much better
[11:45] <amell> so it either reappears in canada or circles forever round the pole
[11:45] Action: amell wonders what the furthest north igate is
[11:46] <LeoBodnar> Probably near Hammerfest
[11:46] <maxmed> could I use Serial.print("$PUBX,41,1,0007,0003,4800,0*13\r\n"); to set the gps baud rate to 4800? Would this help reduce serial overflow? rest of code is here: https://github.com/Max-Med/New_HAB_Code/blob/master/New_HAB_Code_ino_ino/New_HAB_Code_ino_ino.ino
[11:47] <amell> nothing in svalbard? Im surprised.
[11:47] <LeoBodnar> or is Iceland further up North?
[11:47] <amell> svalbard/spitsbergen is much further
[11:48] <amell> my next door neighbours went to see reindeers there.
[11:48] <amell> I dread to think how much that cost.
[11:48] <boru> Nothing in Alert?
[11:48] <LeoBodnar> doh geography fail
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[11:49] <amell> I saw the holiday pics of spitsbergen - it looked like a nice place
[11:49] <LeoBodnar> Norway tip is much further
[11:49] <amell> eh? geography fail for leobodnar
[11:49] <amell> spitsbergen is way north of norway!
[11:51] <amell> next door were posting pics to facebook from spitsbergen, so you would have thought there was APRS.
[11:53] <LeoBodnar> there is an APRS client ther but he is using direct internet link http://aprs.fi/#!call=a%2FOE7GAT
[11:57] <maxmed> anyone? Is it worth trying or will it not help?
[11:59] <SpeedEvil> malgar: have you verified with something that you're actually getting fixes from the GPS?
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[12:02] <Laurenceb_> wtf B-66 position glitches
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[12:15] <Islam> hi there
[12:16] <Islam> could you please help?I get stuck in receiving gps data
[12:18] <DL7AD_mobile2> Hi
[12:18] <Islam> Hey
[12:19] <Islam> I have got an issue with my GPS. I'm using ublox gps receiver, instead of receiving the geolocation of my sensor, i'm receiving letters
[12:20] <Islam> such as *1F19 *C3C3 *E34E *E70E
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[12:20] <Islam> It seems like,the code is incorrect or?
[12:21] <SpeedEvil> Islam: what is the raw data you're getting from the GPS - not what your library is giving you
[12:23] <Islam> I guess, it's the data, cuz, im receiving the data from fldigi- i connected NTX2 and receiving the signal - the First line of my coding is "THe platform is ready" well, i can easly read it on my fl-digi, however the next lines are with these letters
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> From the actual GPS - not over the radio
[12:24] <Islam> How can i test it?
[12:24] <Islam> i mean check it
[12:26] <adamgreig> it seems like the problem is probably the code running on your microcontroller (arduino?)
[12:26] <adamgreig> you should probably give more details of your hardware and your software
[12:26] <adamgreig> otherwise we are entirely in the dark
[12:26] <Islam> yes, it's arduino uno
[12:26] <adamgreig> strings like *1F19 and *C3C3 are probably checksums, which should be sent just at the end of sentences
[12:26] <Islam> how can i upload the piece of my code here?
[12:26] <adamgreig> use something like pastebin.com
[12:26] <adamgreig> did you write the code yourself?
[12:27] <maxmed> SpeedEvil: were you talking to me when you said " malgar: have you verified with something that you're actually getting fixes from the GPS?" ?
[12:27] <SpeedEvil> malgar: yes
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[12:27] <malgar> oO
[12:27] <SpeedEvil> For example - same problem as Islam - you need ideally to read the raw data from the GPS - and see what it is
[12:27] <malgar> what?
[12:27] <Islam> some piece of coding i have done by myself
[12:27] <SpeedEvil> Is it of the form http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/nmea.htm#GLL
[12:28] <SpeedEvil> $GPGLL,4916.45,N,12311.12,W,225444,A,*1D - for example
[12:28] <malgar> oh wrong tab :P
[12:28] <SpeedEvil> Or is that 'A' replaced with a 'V' for void - and not all the numbers filled out
[12:29] <Islam> http://pastebin.com/s5WP1d1g
[12:29] <Islam> i added my full code there
[12:30] <SpeedEvil> I get a kitty of heavy load
[12:30] <maxmed> Speedevil: wait I'm confused are you talking to me (maxmed) or malgar?
[12:31] <SpeedEvil> err
[12:32] Action: SpeedEvil decides he's too unawake for working out names beginning with m, and goes to pick blaccurrants.
[12:32] <adamgreig> Islam: your problem is around line 274
[12:32] <adamgreig> you don't construct the data string and instead you only put the checksum into it
[12:33] <adamgreig> you need to actually construct the datastring, otherwise you end up transmitting no data
[12:33] <Islam> oh...
[12:34] <Islam> let me try to put the line there
[12:35] <maxmed> SpeedEvil: lol, I'll try and get the data direct from gps. When I plug the gps into ublox I do get altitude so seems odd. The gps satellites always comes out as 255 meaning TinyGPS doesn't think it has every seen the number of gps satellites either, but again when plugged into ublox centre it comes out as 5 or 6
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[12:48] <Islam> i put the line sprintf(datastring, "$$$$ManHUB,%i,%s,%s,%s,%ld,%i,%i,%i,%i,%i,%d,",msgcount,tchar,lat,lon,alt,sats,vel,head,acc), still receiving only check sum, maybe i should test it outside of building?
[12:49] <UpuWork> are you over writing the string with the checksum rather than appending it
[12:50] <Islam> i put the code line just before the checksum code
[12:50] <UpuWork> take the checksum code out
[12:50] <UpuWork> see if you get it
[12:51] <maxmed> just checked my data direct from gps and all looks valid, no void or missing data. Is it worth trying to reduce the baud rate? Would this reduce Serial Overflow?
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[12:51] <jededu> Upu pm
[12:52] <Islam> hmm..i deleted checksum line, but still getting the data :)
[12:55] <maxmed> Upu, your in-charge of payments for the conference right? I signed up the other day but used my dad's paypal so its been put under my dad's name, could you change it from Paul Medhurst to Max Medhurst to avoid any confusion on the day?
[12:56] <UpuWork> no problems Max
[12:56] <UpuWork> quick PM
[12:56] <Islam> any ideas?
[12:57] <UpuWork> done maxmed but if you could just have a look at your private message I sent thanks
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[13:02] <maxmed> UpuWork: pm replied
[13:04] <Islam> i cut the line from 296-299, now it shows only "The Platform is ready"
[13:04] <Islam> lines*
[13:05] <Islam> without checksum
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[13:05] <F1VJQ> Islam as a general point, can you not insert print statements to check values wherever you need to. Then you can see where your logic is taking you.
[13:07] <F1VJQ> for example befoer an IF where you expect to enter the conditional statements, print the values immediately BEFORE the if
[13:07] <Islam> ok, now i'm working on it
[13:09] <Islam> i put just after the if sprintf(datastring,"No new data \n"); and now it's showing that, no gps data, i guess something wrong with my gps receiver
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[13:12] <F1VJQ> well it certainly means >> newGPSData == false >> not sure if it got there validly
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[13:16] <F1VJQ> For example, can you see if you ever execute this >> newGPSData = true; >>
[13:18] <Islam> i cant receive any newgpsdata
[13:19] <F1VJQ> and your antenna is in view of sattellites?
[13:19] <Islam> trying to somehow look into that section, newgpsdata=true
[13:20] <F1VJQ> satellites
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[13:20] <Islam> i'm inside of building
[13:20] <Islam> btw i found some minor mistakes
[13:20] <F1VJQ> inside a building you are not likely to get GPS fix
[13:21] <Islam> lines 232 and 234, the variables are incorrect
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[13:21] <F1VJQ> to debug code, never assume anything will work as intended
[13:21] <Islam> should be int vel and int acc
[13:21] <Islam> let me try to test it outside
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[13:23] <F1VJQ> and to ensure you can see what is being executed, put a print in at the start of every set of conditional statements so you can see the flow
[13:24] <jb_bak> Hi, I am very very interested in the details posted at Spacenear.us
[13:24] <F1VJQ> then remove them as you are happy that each piece of code works
[13:24] <jb_bak> does anyone have a link to maybe a blog that shows the technical details?
[13:25] <F1VJQ> jb_bak what in particular?
[13:25] <jb_bak> well we have attempted this a few times, using the irdium 9602 tracker
[13:25] <amell> jededu: are you launching today? there was some confusion as to when you were launching.
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[13:26] <amell> jededu: it was to be at 9am on some undetermined date.
[13:26] <jb_bak> but have had a lot of trouble, i'd love to see how they are powered and the balloon design
[13:26] <F1VJQ> google for Leo Bodnar balloons
[13:26] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> jb_bak, You need the Wiki try http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[13:27] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> for starters but manmy other sections
[13:27] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> *many
[13:29] <jededu> Its raining here :( i have had bad experiences with balloona and rain
[13:30] <F1VJQ> jededu your email did not say the date
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[13:31] <amell> ok. so youre waiting for rain to abate
[13:32] <amell> its a nice day in cambridgeshire :)
[13:32] <jb_bak> ok thanks, does anyone have pics of B64?
[13:32] <jb_bak> the one that has went around the world?
[13:32] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/
[13:32] <jededu> F1VJQ its in the title
[13:33] <jededu> Was 9 this morning but its wet
[13:34] <Islam> i'm testing now gps receiver
[13:34] <Islam> B562624240FFFF83000010270050FA0FA06402C1000000000000001820 * Reading ACK response: (FAILED!)
[13:34] <F1VJQ> Title said 4/8
[13:34] <Islam> i guess, the receiver is not working
[13:34] <jb_bak> THank you F1VJQ!
[13:34] <jededu> Ahh should be 5/8 my mistake
[13:35] <LeoBodnar> jb_bak: Lester has a few pics http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/08/01/balloon_circumnavigates_world/
[13:36] <Islam> well,i changed the pins from (0 1) to (5 4) now i'm getting data
[13:37] <jb_bak> Very VERY cool guys!! I'm so jealous! We tried hard to do this last year
[13:37] <amell> ooh i had not seen the pic of a fully inflated envelope before.
[13:37] <amell> intereesting that the fill hole is not on the axis
[13:38] <F1VJQ> Islam that's good... now you can put monitor points in everywhere you expect something to happen, and see what is ACTUALLY happening
[13:38] Action: amell enjoys the comments on the reg article
[13:39] <F1VJQ> Brit balloon bod Bodnar
[13:39] <F1VJQ> LOL
[13:39] <amell> Lester knows how to write
[13:39] <Islam> i was receiving the data from serial, when i upload my full code, it didnt work, i mean, i couldnt receive anything..
[13:39] <F1VJQ> alliteration at its best
[13:40] <amell> Brad Bodnar, a geek from Wisconsin who has always fancied the lead cheerleader from high school, launches his balloon. It then flies round the world until it reaches North Korea who are just about to launch a Nuke at the USA. Brad's balloon detects this (don't ask me how) and he then re-programmes it, you will see him furiously typing at a keyboard while lots of code scrolls up the screen and there is an animation of his balloon on the screen, the bal
[13:40] <amell> descends in to the path of the nuke and destroys it.
[13:41] <jb_bak> hey guys what is the envolope made of?
[13:42] <Dark-Fx> atoms
[13:42] <amell> carbon atoms
[13:43] <UpuWork> my mum used to say if you can't say something helpful don't say anything at all
[13:43] <amell> is that a suggestion?
[13:43] <UpuWork> not entirely sure jb_bak
[13:43] <UpuWork> some PET plastic stuff composition unknown
[13:45] <Dark-Fx> something something your mom joke.
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[13:47] <UpuWork> LLDPE
[13:47] <UpuWork> possibly similar to http://balloonkits.com/order
[13:47] <Islam> woho!
[13:47] <Islam> it's working!
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[13:48] <Dark-Fx> 11g is impressive
[13:50] <F1VJQ> Islam well done.... now the real testing.... test, test, and test again!
[13:50] <Islam> thank you very much, i do appreciate
[13:50] <Islam> yeah,im gonna now test my stabilization
[13:50] <Islam> thanks a lot again
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[13:51] <amell> made of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EVOH apparently.
[13:53] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Love the mix of units in the advert
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[14:05] <maxmed> I just tried setting the ublox to 4800 baud to see if that helped solve the altitude/satellite problem but now it doesnt seem to get any gps fix at all, all I get is "waiting for fix". Any ideas whats wrong? Code is here https://github.com/Max-Med/New_HAB_Code/blob/master/New_HAB_Code_ino_ino/New_HAB_Code_ino_ino.ino I set baud to 4800 lines 58-60
[14:05] <Islam> F1VJQ, i have got a question. The altitude is everytime 100000 (meters)
[14:05] <Islam> is it normal?
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[14:06] <maxmed> I also tried setting the baud rate at the start of void setup but then it didnt do anything at all suggesting it didnt even get through the setup
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[14:09] <maxmed> Islam- sounds like you've got the same problem as me, except mine comes out as 9999999m. Which ublox module are you using?
[14:09] <fsphil> have you actually told the ublox to change its baud rate maxmed? (I've not checked the code)
[14:09] <fsphil> changing the avr's baud rate will have no effect on the ublox. it has to be changed on both sides
[14:09] <Islam> im using max 6Q
[14:10] <maxmed> fsphil, yes I think I have, used line: Serial.print("$PUBX,41,1,0007,0003,4800,0*13\r\n");
[14:11] <fsphil> see, should've read the code
[14:11] <fsphil> put your flush before your begin
[14:12] <maxmed> yes, "Serial.flush();"
[14:12] <maxmed> oh right sorry, misread. I'll move the flush
[14:13] <fsphil> not sure how the arduino library works there, it might be changing the baud rate before the $PUBX line has finished sending
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[14:14] <maxmed> do you think its worth putting a delay after the Serial.print but before the Serial.flush() ?
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[14:15] <fsphil> eeh I don't like using delays for that kind of thing
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[14:15] <fsphil> flush() should block
[14:15] <fsphil> until it's finished flushing
[14:16] <Johnwulp> Hi, im trying to connect my NTX2B-FA to a arduino uno with the example from http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2 , but i only hear this on my radio >> http://johnendanielle.nl/RTTY_1.mp3
[14:22] <UpuWork> you've recorded a geiger counter rather than the radio ?
[14:22] <UpuWork> can we have a picture of the setup ?
[14:22] <F1VJQ> <Islam> F1VJQ, i have got a question. The altitude is everytime 100000 (meters) - sorry - I'm away from computer working in the garden... no it isn't normal, except that if no GPS it is a default value of 99999s
[14:22] <UpuWork> and a screen shot of the dl-fldigi please
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[14:25] <Islam> now im working on it..
[14:25] <Johnwulp> UpuWork: Its output from my fm transceiver, not even dl-fldigi http://johnendanielle.nl/IMG_3675.JPG
[14:27] <Islam> it's showing 255 satellites :))
[14:28] <F1VJQ> Islam that's wrong too
[14:28] <UpuWork> Johnwulp you need a receiver that can do USB
[14:28] <F1VJQ> its a default value when no stas in viewi
[14:28] <F1VJQ> stas = sats
[14:28] <Islam> but how it's possible
[14:29] <Islam> im getting coordinates, which means the satellites are in view
[14:29] <F1VJQ> well I'll guess code error!
[14:29] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, your code won't be parsing the satellites correctly
[14:29] <UpuWork> what radio is it Johnwulp ?
[14:30] <Johnwulp> UpuWork: its a baofen uv-5ra, im going to search for my rtl-sdr stick&
[14:30] <F1VJQ> Islam after getting GPS data, print each variable straight away and check what is says
[14:30] <UpuWork> yeah not suitable sorry
[14:30] <UpuWork> RTL can do it
[14:30] <Islam> ok
[14:32] <Johnwulp> UpuWork: Crap, i got all the parts togheter i thog
[14:32] <Johnwulp> ught.
[14:33] <maxmed> Islam- That is exactly the same problem as me, I beleive it is due to Serial overflow. Try reducing the baud rate to 4800 baud- thats what I've done and it seems to be working (for now!)
[14:36] <Islam> well, you mean addin these lines GPS_SS.print("$PUBX,41,1,0007,0003,4800,0*13\r\n"); GPS_SS.begin(4800); GPS_SS.flush();?
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[14:37] <mfa298> Islam: Software serial may also be causing some issues. You may do better moving the GPS to the hardware serial port and using software serial for the debug information (you may need to remove the gps whilst you program the arduino in that setup though)
[14:38] <maxmed> Islam- yes- but do print-flush-begin. Not sure which software serial you are using but you could try the "newsoftware serial" library- it is meant to work better with TinyGPS
[14:39] <maxmed> Bye for now
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[14:41] <Islam> mfa298, yeah i know, when i uploading my code, i'm removing tx and rx of GPS
[14:44] <amell> Hmm, lancaster bomber just left hamilton, ontario headed for coningsby, UK
[14:45] <fsphil> nobody liked coningsby anyway
[14:45] <jb_bak> Hey guys, would it be possible (or helpful) for a raspberry pi with and USB dongle running dl-fldigi on the east coast of the USA?
[14:45] <amell> C-GVRA if you want to track it on flightradar24. It will take 4 days at 155kts :)
[14:46] <fsphil> I'm not sure the Pi has enough CPU grunt for doing SDR work
[14:47] <jb_bak> ok I have an odroid-xu that i can use too
[14:47] <jb_bak> just wondering, if my little usb-dvb dongle is really enough to do any good
[14:47] <mfa298> all my trials of decoding on the Pi show it doesn't have enough CPU power to be useful (tried dl-fldigi and matts java app)
[14:47] <fsphil> those little rtlsdr dongles are not too bad
[14:47] <mfa298> and that's using audio in not trying to do sdr as well
[14:47] <fsphil> the pi's usb bus is a bit weak
[14:48] <amell> fsphil: have you tried overclocking it?
[14:48] <fsphil> not recently. must try that though, see if I can get rtl_tcp working more reliably
[14:48] <craag_philcrump> mfa298: Did you use openjdk or oracle jvm?
[14:49] <mfa298> quite possibly openjdk although I cant remember and I think that Pi is currently off so I can't check
[14:49] <amell> I believe you can take it from 700Mhz to 1Ghz withoout too much trouble
[14:49] <craag_philcrump> Try again with oracle jvm - reduces the CPU load by about 5x
[14:49] <craag_philcrump> (on my ubuntu netbook)
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[14:50] <mfa298> I think I had reasonable success with rtl_tcp a year ago streaming to a laptop, but only when done over a wired connection - Wireless couldn't keep up with the packet rate
[14:50] <mfa298> craag_philcrump: I shall have to have a play
[14:51] <mfa298> assuming you can get oracle jvm on the pi
[14:56] <jb_bak> I have an odroid-xu, which has great CPU power (more than my laptop), my main question is, will that simple rtl dongle be enough to really recieve and do any good?
[14:56] <jb_bak> with just the standard antenna it came with?
[14:57] <fsphil> not with that antenna
[14:57] <jb_bak> what antennas do you guys use?
[14:57] <mfa298> with a reasonable antenna in a decent location the rtl dongle can do a decent job
[14:57] <fsphil> varies, but for a fixed station an omni directional would be ideal
[14:57] <fsphil> I've a dual band colinear on the roof
[14:57] <fsphil> does really well
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> The antenna it comes with may pick up balloons at a tenth of the range of a proper antenna
[14:58] <mfa298> something like a standard 2/70 vertical on the roof should do a decent job if you're location isn't in the bottom of a valley
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> Teh antenna doesn't need to be expensive - bamboo and copper wire work just fin
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> e
[14:58] <jb_bak> yeah that is another problem, i'm kinda in a valley
[14:58] <SpeedEvil> Line of sight is vital
[14:59] <fsphil> kinda? :)
[14:59] <jb_bak> well, i'm at one of the lower parts of a very flat area
[15:00] <gonzo_> I'm in a bit of a valley, it just means that the more distant balloons need to be at some height for me to hear them
[15:00] <mfa298> if you've got a decent view towards the horizon then it should be ok. If it's tall hills nearby then they will limit what you can receive
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> jb_bak: Where are you?
[15:01] <gonzo_> the land either side of me is about 50ft higher, within 100yds of my house
[15:01] <jb_bak> I am in Raleigh, NC
[15:01] <gonzo_> Sibot has probably gone of to sulk!
[15:01] <SpeedEvil> jb_bak: working out how many degrees up your horizon is may be useful
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[15:01] <fsphil> was wondering why it hadn't converted
[15:02] <jb_bak> ok sure
[15:02] <fsphil> 50 feet is 15.24 metres
[15:02] <gonzo_> phil-bot
[15:02] <fsphil> 100 yards is 91.44 metres
[15:02] <jb_bak> hey with a rooftop antenna, it would be best to locate the odroid right next to it in a water proof containter right? more coax equals loss of signal right?
[15:02] <fsphil> angle can be calculated from that
[15:02] <fsphil> yes
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> Or no.
[15:03] <fsphil> though having it easily accessable can be useful too
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> Coax can be quite low-loss especially at 433MHz
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[15:03] <jb_bak> ahh ok, so maybe put it in the attic where i could get to it easily, i've been wanting to do this for other reasons (not just this)
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> Having the antenna - perhaps a preamp - on the roof - and the reciever distant can be a plus
[15:03] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[15:03] <gonzo_> putting a preamp close to the antenna means you can get away with more cable loss and put the rx in a more convinennt place
[15:04] <gonzo_> snap
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> Putting the antenna itself in the attic may not work
[15:04] <SpeedEvil> And it means that the antenna is distant from self-generated interference from your reciever and odroid
[15:04] <jb_bak> no the odroid (raspberry pi like device) and dongle in the attic
[15:04] <LazyLeopard> Depends what coax you get (and how much you're prepared to pay...).
[15:04] <jb_bak> with a line up to the antenna
[15:04] <gonzo_> it depends on the material the roof tiles are made from
[15:04] <jb_bak> probably be a 10 ft line
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[15:05] <gonzo_> (actually, I should try my roof again, now that all the tiles have been replaced
[15:05] <LazyLeopard> aving a 70cms antenna the right side of walls and tiles can make a bit of a difference...
[15:05] <jb_bak> is the E4000 an ok dongle?
[15:05] <jb_bak> ok
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[15:05] <gonzo_> any of the cheap dongles benifit from a preamp with filtering (ie. HABAMP)
[15:06] <gonzo_> the funcube dongle pro+ is better as it has all that built in
[15:06] <gonzo_> but at a price
[15:06] <fsphil> it doesn't seem to work on the Pi atm
[15:07] <fsphil> just reports not enough usb bandwidth
[15:07] <fsphil> may be fine with that other board you mentioned
[15:07] <fsphil> I must try it on the beaglebone
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[15:39] <maxmed> yay my code now seems to work fully! it now displays the correct altitude and sends out the old stale data when the gps fix is lost! I've got a uBlox 7 max gps with a Sarantel Antenna- which way should I point the attenna? up? horizontal? at an angle?
[15:40] <UpuWork> it works in any orientation really
[15:41] <eroomde> (but up is nominal)
[15:42] <DL7AD_mobile> Whats yhe advantage of a sarantel antenne compared to a patch antenna?
[15:42] <eroomde> most of the gain of a patch is directed straight up
[15:42] <eroomde> sarantel has a much broader radiation pattern
[15:42] <eroomde> i.e. it's more tolerant to being at funny angles
[15:43] <eroomde> i think it's better tuned too than a typical small patch, but that's not an inherent property of the antenna types
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[15:43] <DL7AD_mobile> Ah its an isotropic one? :P
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[15:44] <eroomde> no because you'd get a nobel prize for that
[15:44] <eroomde> but it's nearer that than a patch
[15:45] <craag_philcrump> about as isotropic as you can get probably for that size.
[15:45] <DL7AD_mobile> I was kidding :P
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[15:45] <DL7AD_mobile> Okay good thing.
[15:46] <DL7AD_mobile> Thx
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[15:59] <Laurenceb_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_time#Notable_events_in_Unix_time
[16:00] <Laurenceb_> " This is not anticipated to pose a problem, as this is considerably longer than the time it would take the Sun to theoretically expand to a red giant and swallow the Earth"
[16:00] <SpeedEvil> Short-term thinking
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[16:02] <lz1dev> on what scale is that short-term?
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[16:04] <fsphil> there'll still be a B floating around by then
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[16:04] <eroomde> should be a lower helium diffusion rate too
[16:07] <lz1dev> fsphil: that begs the question, does a B still float if there is nobody to track it?
[16:07] <fsphil> is it still floating if there's no atmosphere or planet?
[16:08] <fsphil> we (UKHAS) should try a solar sail -- float around the sun
[16:08] <fsphil> can use an rfm22b to keep costs down
[16:08] <craag_philcrump> lol
[16:09] <LeoBodnar> "still" assumes that information or pre-knowledge is preserved. By that time eveything will be eroded by enthropy or reverse Big Bang
[16:10] <lz1dev> but the frequency might driff a bit
[16:10] <lz1dev> drift*
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[16:23] <maxmed> I've got a 3.3v voltage regulator, should i plug this into the raw or vcc of my arduino pro mini 3.3v?
[16:24] <eroomde> the former
[16:27] <maxmed> ok, so just to confirm so I don't break anything: on my breadboard I connect the positive/negative outputs of the voltage regulator to the indivual pos/neg tracks, then I connect all the positives from gps, radio etc. to those tracks, connect the arduino ground to the ground track and the arduino raw to the positive track but leave teh vcc totally disconnected from anything?
[16:28] <eroomde> er
[16:29] <eroomde> what voltage is the positive track at
[16:29] <maxmed> 3.3v
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[16:31] <eroomde> and what is supplying that 3.3V?
[16:31] <maxmed> 3.3v voltage regulator connected to 9v battery
[16:31] <eroomde> what kind of voltage regulator is it?
[16:32] <eroomde> and what kind of arduino pro mini is it?
[16:32] <eroomde> the 3v3 one or the 5v one?
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[16:34] <eroomde> if it's a 3.3v pro mini, then what you just described in that paragraph should be fine
[16:34] <maxmed> arduino mini is 3v3 one, regulator is traco power TSR 1-2433
[16:34] <eroomde> ok, so if it's traco i'm assuming it's a switching regulator
[16:34] <eroomde> so that should all be fine
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[16:34] <eroomde> carry on!
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[16:39] <maxmed> The datasheet for my voltage regulator seems a bit odd, the regulator has 3 pins, ground, +Vout and +Vin(Vcc) - isn't Vcc usually the regulated output voltage?
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[16:41] <eroomde> no
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[16:42] <eroomde> Vcc does not mean 'the voltage i want to use'
[16:43] <eroomde> it's a term abused to mean alsorts of things, it historically meant the line to which you connect the collector when using bipolar transistors
[16:44] <eroomde> circuits often need multiple voltages, eg on a datalogging board i was working on today i have, in addition to ground, 3.3V, 5V, +10V, -10V, and 2.5V
[16:44] <eroomde> some parts that say 'connect my pin 5 to Vcc' might be refering to any of those
[16:44] <eroomde> it's context specific
[16:46] <eroomde> so in your case, Vin needs to be connected to your unregulated supply (9V) and Vout is your 3.3V supply line that various things that need 3.3V should connect to
[16:46] <eroomde> those various things might have pins on them labelled Vcc, but what they mean is that they need to be connected to 3.3V
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[16:57] <maxmed> bollocks, after all that I went and connected it the wrong way round, accidently plugged 9v into Vout! hopefully nothings damaged
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[17:05] <F1VJQ> Concentrate!!
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[17:22] <lz1dev> GFS .5 http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/157658_trj001.gif
[17:22] <lz1dev> GFS http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/159765_trj001.gif
[17:26] <mattbrejza> alaska via the north pole would be neat
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[17:29] <F1VJQ> Wow, what a mess of spaghetti!
[17:31] <lz1dev> perhaps b64 possesses quantum propeties
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[17:33] <mattbrejza> b63 doesnt like going in a straight line
[17:33] <mattbrejza> from the moment it was launched
[17:36] <lz1dev> high on helium
[17:37] <Laurenceb_> B-66 heading for USA
[17:39] <F1VJQ> lz1dev high on He ... nice!!
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[17:41] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[17:51] Action: cm13g09 contemplates UKHAS conf
[17:52] <mattbrejza> i heard some really cool people are going...
[17:52] <mattbrejza> wouldnt want to be left out of all the conference banter
[17:52] <arko> srs
[17:52] <arko> im flying from the us to go to it
[17:52] <arko> its that cool
[17:53] <mattbrejza> wouldnt you want to see who wins the golden bucket?
[17:53] <mattbrejza> (ok perhaps not that type of gathering)
[17:53] <mattbrejza> but the other things are true
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[17:56] Action: cm13g09 places £5 bet with himself about Farnell order not going through first time.
[17:57] <F1VJQ> B-63 lining up on approach to the River Douro in Porto...!
[17:57] <maxmed> yay! My tracker now seems to fully work! It gets the correct altitude and continues transmitting the old data if the gps fix is lost! I need to change the datastrings a bit to remove the warning that the gps fix has been lost but other than that it works!
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[17:59] <harvy> Hey, can anyone assist with GPS to RTTY code?
[17:59] <maxmed> When I launch my payload am I able to have extra infomation on my datastrings? eg. fix_age and my truecount (count of actual good gps fixes) which are not in the standard datastring?
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[18:08] <F1VJQ> B-63 Bem-vindo a Portugal após a segunda Atlantic Crossing de Leo. Tenha um bom vôo. Agora, para uma segunda circunavegação. Boa sorte.
[18:08] <F1VJQ> B-63 Welcome to Portugal after Leo's second Atlantic Crossing. Have a good flight. Now for a second circumnavigation. Good luck.
[18:11] <F1VJQ> LeoBodnar Congrats on a 2nd Atlantic crossing...
[18:12] <LeoBodnar> thanks F1VJQ! i have missed it
[18:13] <F1VJQ> I have screenshots!!
[18:13] <MaXimaN> Leo: This circumnavigating the planet thing is becoming a bit of a habit ;)
[18:13] <F1VJQ> Will mail the interesting ones when I have time tomorrow
[18:13] <F1VJQ> a HABit
[18:13] Action: MaXimaN hits the rimshot
[18:13] <MaXimaN> :D
[18:14] <F1VJQ> I reckon I MAY just get to hear it in the wee small hours!!
[18:15] <F1VJQ> I'll leave the igate on overnight just in case!
[18:15] <MaXimaN> I won't have my antenna up until tomorrow evening, so hopefully it'll still be in range (if it heads this way) by then
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[18:15] <F1VJQ> It is only doing 55km/h
[18:16] <F1VJQ> slow going..long wait
[18:16] <F1VJQ> back later...
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[18:29] Nick change: MaXimaN -> MaXimaN_
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[18:33] Nick change: MaXimaN_ -> MaXimaN
[18:38] <MaXimaN> B-66 is making nice progress there
[18:43] <arko> i might actually be in the uk/eu when B-66 arrives
[18:43] Action: arko crosses fingers
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[18:44] <MaXimaN> Link to CAP393 on the UKHAS "Restrictions & Legality" page is b0rk
[18:44] <MaXimaN> Correct URL is: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=226
[18:53] <Geoff-G8DHE_> ^^^Item corrected
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[18:54] <MaXimaN> Ofcom Licence Exempt sheet link is also b0rk but I don't have the replacement for that one
[18:56] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Yup they keep changing these thongs :-( I'll have a hunt
[18:58] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Corrected
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[18:59] <LeoBodnar> Changing thongs? I hope you mean flip-flops
[19:00] <MaXimaN> I thought he meant briefs
[19:00] <MaXimaN> Interesting
[19:02] <MaXimaN> Small unmanned surveillance aircraft (Section 1, Part 22, Page 6) has different rules than small unmanned aircraft (Section 1, Part 22, Page 5)
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[19:03] <Geoff-G8DHE_> They change all the URL's on these sites everytime they change there thongs I reckon ;-)
[19:04] <MaXimaN> The small unmanned surveillance aircraft rules don't mention any altitude restriction
[19:04] <LeoBodnar> Geoff-G8DHE_ that message had one spelling mistake
[19:04] <LeoBodnar> and it wasn't "hunt"
[19:04] <Geoff-G8DHE_> :-)
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[19:10] <maxmed> Do you guys think this looks like a suitable parachute: http://www.thefintels.com/aer/parachutes.htm ? Do you think it needs all that reinforcing tape or is it OTT?
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[19:12] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Depends on the payload weight I guessw
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[19:16] <arko> Is there a hysplit for b66?
[19:17] <Geoff-G8DHE_> arko, have you tried the MT it has hysplit built in
[19:18] <arjun_13> Hi
[19:18] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Ho
[19:19] <arko> I'm on my phone
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> I'm on my sofa
[19:20] <arko> I'm in line for food a jpl
[19:20] Action: arko got a roast beef sandwich
[19:20] <Laurenceb_> gruel queue?
[19:20] <Laurenceb_> "please sir, may i have some more?"
[19:21] <maxmed> Geoff-G8DHE_ : The payload weight is only going to be about 200-250g.
[19:22] <Geoff-G8DHE_> You could get away with a streamer at that weight! http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:parachute_sizing_chart
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[19:25] <maxmed> Geoff-G8DHE_ : that had crossed my mind but would rather go with the chute I think, want a relatively slow decent to avoid breaking anything on my first attempt at this! Do you think the ribbon/webbing round the permimeter of the chute is overkill?
[19:26] <Geoff-G8DHE_> There can be a lot of turblence at times, I don't think you would want to rely on the nylon material alone having the strength without some re-enforcement
[19:26] <Geoff-G8DHE_> you will need something to spread the load at the attachement points
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[19:28] <maxmed> I'd have the 2 diagonal pieces going across the chute and the other smaller peices at the other attachment points like in that example.
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[19:29] <maxmed> I guess I could try and find some lighter weight ribbon/webbing to go round the circumference but then its adding quite a lot of weight (I guess thats why you recomended a streamer!)
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[19:43] <maxmed> Geoff-G8DHE_ : what do you think? does it need the perimeter webbing or just the diagonals + other tie down points?
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[19:46] <maxmed> sorry, I saw someone used my name but was on another tab and when I came back my laptop had disconnected! could you please repeat?
[19:46] <craag_philcrump> no reply in the meantime maxmed
[19:47] <maxmed> how odd, it was flashing saying "activity!". ah well, guess laptop is just misbehaving!
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[19:51] <DL7AD_mobile> Evening
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[19:58] <maxmed> do many people use streamers rather than parachutes? for a 250g payload can you get it to descend reasonably slowly with a streamer (about 3m/s)?
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[20:03] <harvy> Hey, can anyone assist with GPS to RTTY code?
[20:04] <harvy> It's sending out the signal but the gap between the oscillations is too big.
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[20:05] <harvy> I think it might be the pwm method acting up.
[20:07] <mfa298> harvy: is your code uploaded somewhere ?
[20:08] <myier> mfa298: sorry, I didn't notice your message, I didn't find vbplug, do you have a link?
[20:08] <myier> or what is the stereo mix you are referring to?
[20:09] <mfa298> stereo mix is a feature in windows (assuming your sound card drivers allow it) where you can record what's going out the speakers
[20:10] <mfa298> hmmm, maybe it wasn't vbplug I shall see if I have a bookmark
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[20:13] <mfa298> ah VB-Cable http://vb-audio.pagesperso-orange.fr/Cable/index.htm
[20:14] <myier> thanks!
[20:16] <mfa298> there's a couple of other alternatives listed on http://superuser.com/questions/356536/virtual-audio-driver-for-windows but I don't know anything about them
[20:16] <harvy> mfa298: https://github.com/ManchesterSpaceProgramme/tx-rtty/blob/master/online_ublox_ntx2/online_ublox_ntx2.ino
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[20:19] <mfa298> harvy: you may want to think about the order you do things in the loop function. Currently you appear to send the string via rtty, then generate it, then print it to serial, then get the data from gps.
[20:23] <mfa298> I can't see anything obviously that would give timing issues although I've not done arduino pwm so I might be missing something there
[20:23] <mfa298> do you have a screen shot of the dl-fldigi water fall and/or recording of the audio ?
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[20:29] <mfa298> harvy: doing a quick comparison between your rtty code and the example code on http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2 you might have some errors in how you toggle the pin.
[20:31] <harvy> mfa298: http://imgur.com/cyigfE4
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[20:32] <harvy> The band is the range it appears to be oscillating between.
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[20:36] <mfa298> see my second comment, that looks to be very wide which I think may be because you're not actually using PWM
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[20:46] <Johnwulp_laptop> Can smomebody point me in the right direction? im am using the "RTTY TEST BEACON RTTY TEST BEACON" example, but dl-fldigi keeps decoding "|YTtd|YQb9|YTtd,ILrQb9|YTtd|YQb9|YTtd,IL2Qb9" etc..
[20:46] <mfa298> Johnwulp_laptop: what's your setup ?
[20:47] <bertrik> Johnwulp_laptop: maybe a wrong setting for nr of data bits, stop bits, parity, baud rate etc
[20:47] <Johnwulp_laptop> mfa298: arduino uno with the example from the site, and a rtl sdr connected to sdrsharp routed via virtual cable like software into dl-fldigi
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[20:47] <mfa298> or possibly RV / LSB/USB mismatch
[20:48] <mfa298> Johnwulp_laptop: can you do a screenshot showing sdrsharp and dl-fldigi ?
[20:48] <Johnwulp_laptop> mfa298: the carriershift for the example should be 425, 7 bits per char, no parity and 2 stop bits
[20:49] <mfa298> that depends on what's in your code although that sounds plausible
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[20:51] <Johnwulp_laptop> mfa298: I follow this example. Uploading some screenshots is a moment...
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[20:54] <Johnwulp_laptop> mfa298: This is fldigi http://i.imgur.com/nCSlMhV.png
[20:54] <Johnwulp_laptop> sdrsharp http://i.imgur.com/aeEpMHH.png
[20:54] <Johnwulp_laptop> and the rtty setup for fldigi http://i.imgur.com/BIUgXep.png
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[20:55] <mfa298> I think with the rtlsdr you don't need swap I&Q ticked which might fix it for you
[20:55] <F1VJQ> doesn't look like he HAB version......
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[20:55] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Its not and the audio evel is too high as well hence the red diamond
[20:56] <Johnwulp_laptop> yeah that swap iq fixed it :-)
[20:56] <mfa298> F1VJQ: it's dl-fldigi but not run in hab mode, but that shouldnt make a difference
[20:56] <Johnwulp_laptop> strange, in the picture from the example is the same swap iq checkbox activated http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/guides:ntx2b-5.jpg?cache=&w=900&h=542&tok=c1b450
[20:57] <F1VJQ> mfa298 quite right....the bandwidth could be opened up a bit from the defaults
[20:58] <mfa298> Swap I&Q is needed with the Funcube dongles but shouldn't be needed with the rtlsdr.
[20:58] <F1VJQ> Opmode/RTTY/Custom then widen to about 200
[21:00] <mfa298> you could also have fixed it by one of the following: changing mode to LSB in sdr sharp, Pressing Rv in dl-fldigi, or changing the mode in dl-fldigi to RTTY or LSB (they all have the same effect of swapping over the mark and space tones. But Swap I&Q should be the correct fix in this case)
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[21:01] <Johnwulp_laptop> works like a charm right now. http://i.imgur.com/8Orei3I.png
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[21:01] <Johnwulp_laptop> Does it make any sense to put a delay for 10 sec between broadcasts, and power down the ntx2?
[21:02] <Johnwulp_laptop> Just to save battery?
[21:02] <mfa298> for 10 seconds probably not, I think you'll find the GPS draws much more power.
[21:02] <bertrik> no, if dl-fldigi tries to do automatic frequency control, it might lose track (IMO)
[21:03] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Depends on the length of flight for floaters maybe but for 2-3 hours up/Burst/Dwn not worth it.
[21:03] <Johnwulp_laptop> Ok thanks, i will remove that from my code then.
[21:03] <bertrik> I don't know about the ntx2, but I've seen some transmitters drift quite a bit just after the carrier being turned on
[21:06] <gonzo_nb> the original ntx drift on power up
[21:06] <gonzo_nb> so best to have a few sec of carrier fbefore sending data
[21:07] <gonzo_nb> that helps people manual tuning them, but the afc of fldigi may not cope
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[21:07] <F1VJQ> Johnwulp_laptop you may think about sending some idling before a message to allow AFC to latch on....
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[21:08] <mrShrimp> Does anyone know if, when building a quarter wave ground plane antenna of the type shown here (http://code.google.com/p/trackuino/wiki/Antennas), the extra diameter added by the brass tubing near the SMA connector noticably changes the effective length of the radials and radiator?
[21:08] <Johnwulp_laptop> well my goal is to go up, burst and go down so i'll guess i will transmit data all the time.
[21:08] <mrShrimp> sorry to butt in :P
[21:08] <F1VJQ> for idle, send a few mark
[21:10] <myier> news from my ground plane antenna story: I was able to bend the 4 ground tubes, how bad is it if they are not perfectly coplanar? like 1 or 2mm off? based on http://qyx.krtko.org/embedded/433mhz_ground_plane_antenna/
[21:11] <F1VJQ> mrShrimp I don't think so... it is the length that matters
[21:11] <F1VJQ> myier no difference at all
[21:12] <Geoff-G8DHE_> Aerials can be very forgiving ;-)
[21:12] <qyx_> you should even bend them down more to about 45°
[21:12] <qyx_> so some mm's don't matter
[21:12] <mrShrimp> Okay, thanks F1VJQ!
[21:12] <F1VJQ> a piece of coax stripped back so the braid can be split into 4 makes a ground plane cheaply!
[21:12] <harvy> mfa298: I am just using it in the setup(). And it appears to be used the same in the example.
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[21:13] <mfa298> harvy: your txbit function looked to be different
[21:14] <mfa298> remember that pwm sends out a signal based on how much it's on and off whereas a digital signal is just on or off
[21:16] <myier> great
[21:16] <myier> qyx_: what's mm?
[21:17] <myier> ah millimetres sorry
[21:17] <myier> I was thinking about an aerial geek term
[21:17] <myier> I'll just cut them to 164mm and I'm done then! awesome
[21:18] <F1VJQ> sounds about right!
[21:19] <myier> Oh since we're talking about antennas, I have a question. I'll probably have another ground plane on the payload, what orientation is preferred for both?
[21:19] <F1VJQ> the radials horizontal, the radiator vertical
[21:20] <F1VJQ> radiator pointing up or down ...doesn't matter
[21:21] <myier> how does bending the ground radials more than 90 degrees affect the radiation pattern? Is it just about impedance?
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[21:22] <myier> if I understand correctly, the radiation pattern makes it nearly impossible to receive if the two radiators are colinear, which tends to be the case when there's not much wind
[21:24] <harvy> mfa298: Ok that's looking a lot better.
[21:24] <harvy> mfa298: It's narrower but still switching slowly between the two signals.
[21:26] <mfa298> that may mean you've got some extra delay in there
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[21:28] <mfa298> but I can't see anything obvious on the code you've put on github
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[21:28] <F1VJQ> myier I'd just leave them at 90degrees to the radiator
[21:29] <myier> I think somebody mentionned impedance about that F1VJQ, I don't remember how
[21:29] <F1VJQ> it isn't really an issue - B-63 B-64 B-66 all have 90 degree small wires as radials
[21:29] <myier> ok
[21:29] <F1VJQ> myier - I wouldn't worry
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[21:30] <harvy> mfa298: Ok thanks for your help anyway.
[21:31] <myier> the fact is, I worry because I'll probably be the only receiver, so if there's a dark zone in the antenna configuration, I'd better work it out
[21:32] <F1VJQ> myier at altitude you will see plenty of signal
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[21:38] <F1VJQ> myier, why will you be the only receiver? There are plenty of 434Mhz stations if you announce flight in advance
[21:42] <Maxell> F1VJQ: however worst-case situation might not be "worst-case" in habbing
[21:42] <Laurenceb__> fun challenge: work out of B-63 meets FAI specs for circumnavigation
[21:42] <Maxell> for example the last 200 meters before touchdown
[21:43] <BullDoger> Laurenceb_, Just assume no :)
[21:43] <F1VJQ> Maxell well yes... touchdown means loss of signal if not close!
[21:43] <BullDoger> Did b-64 get it?
[21:46] <Laurenceb__> yes, easily
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[21:47] <N2NXZ> Looks like B-66 may fly past me.That would be something.
[21:47] <Laurenceb__> get a scope set up :P
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[21:48] <N2NXZ> Funny you mention that.I contacted 3 obsevatories about capturing visuals.
[21:48] <N2NXZ> They told me it is impossible...probably,but there are people who are talented with those scopes
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[21:49] <N2NXZ> Then again,some said balloons cant go around the earth :)
[21:49] <Laurenceb__> in theory it will be visible with a ~10cm scope
[21:50] <F1VJQ> people have photographed ISS so you can see the shape clearly, so not impossible I'd say
[21:50] <N2NXZ> This observatory claimed to have a 10inch
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[21:50] <N2NXZ> At least they entertained my email
[21:50] <F1VJQ> trouble is B-66 is a clear envelope!!
[21:51] <F1VJQ> N2NXZ especially weighing in at 11gr and one AAA battery!
[21:51] <N2NXZ> clear ? Not shiny foil thern...yes harder.
[21:51] <myier> F1VJQ: you've seen where I am, it's not a floater, nobody's in range, maybe the corsica listener if he's available on that date
[21:51] <N2NXZ> I asked them about 1600 hwoyee visuals too
[21:52] <N2NXZ> Another no
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> A normal - 20mA LED flashing at night would be very easy from a scope
[21:52] <SpeedEvil> 1s/60
[21:52] <N2NXZ> I think most anything can be done if one really wants it
[21:52] <myier> maybe observatories cannot focus that close
[21:52] <myier> amateur telescope can
[21:53] <amell> http://i.imgur.com/XvL1Ddn.png does anyone else see this behaviour in their browser?
[21:53] <myier> I've seen my first balloon explode live in a T115
[21:53] <F1VJQ> N"NXZ sounds like you got the standard polite "FO letter"!
[21:53] <amell> i was just wondering if it was peculiar to safari
[21:53] <jarod> amell that's just a normal balloon fart
[21:53] <amell> eh?
[21:53] <myier> I've seen that this morning amell but not this evening
[21:53] <amell> snus does not do that
[21:54] <amell> i think leo will have his second circumnav under his belt sometime tomorrow
[21:54] <Laurenceb__> now we know where amell lives
[21:55] <amell> i know where you ALL live
[21:55] <Laurenceb__> B-66 into USA
[21:55] <myier> how can you have a man picture on the map?
[21:56] <arko> hysplit?
[21:56] <myier> what's that?
[21:56] <Laurenceb__> what is what?
[21:56] <myier> hysplit
[21:56] <amell> what of it?
[21:57] <myier> oh that one, the trajectory model
[21:57] <myier> what does it have to do with the man image on the map?
[21:58] <amell> nice to see that B-66 is going to pass over the white house
[21:58] <amell> hysplit is unconnected to the man image
[21:58] <Maxell> amell: force reloading the page should fix that, CTRL+F5
[21:58] <Maxell> amell: they are old datapoints being fed in requires reload
[21:59] Action: amell visualises B-66 appearing over the white house and sending a ray of death downwards, just like in the film Independence Day
[21:59] <Maxell> amell: it happens with evey old data point being fed it could happen again
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[22:02] <SpeedEvil> lz1xe_chase clearly waiting for b63 comes over to chase it.
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[22:03] <N2NXZ> "FO letter"!...Yes,it seemed that way :)
[22:04] <N2NXZ> <amell> http://i.imgur.com/XvL1Ddn.png.Just checked it out,not on my screen!
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[22:08] <F1VJQ> Myier are you in VAR area?
[22:09] <myier> no alpes-maritimes, near monaco, reload the map I've launched dl-fldigi
[22:09] <F1VJQ> OK... got to be careful with recoveries when by the sea!
[22:10] <myier> yes, we won't launch if there's too much wind
[22:10] <myier> for our first flight, we got the balloon like 20km from where we launched it
[22:10] <F1VJQ> myier and no launch in southerly winds
[22:11] <myier> why?
[22:11] <F1VJQ> you don't want to drop in the Med!
[22:12] <myier> that would be wind from the north, but maybe I don't understand southerly properly
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[22:13] <myier> anyway, yes we'll be careful
[22:13] <F1VJQ> maybe I should have said winds from north!
[22:13] <craag_philcrump> southerly means wind from the south
[22:13] <F1VJQ> yes, mea culpa
[22:13] <myier> we are launching from jausiers, which gives us a bit of margin
[22:13] <myier> like 100km
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[22:14] <F1VJQ> OK
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[22:17] <myier> oh I didn't see the hysplit button on the mobile tracker, that's great
[22:18] <myier> I may be in range tomorrow
[22:18] <myier> oh no it'll be too low on the horizon I don't have that kind of field of view
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[22:48] Nick change: F1VJQ -> F1VJQ_overnightw
[22:48] Nick change: F1VJQ_overnightw -> F1VJ
[22:48] <harvy> Anyone still here?
[22:48] Nick change: F1VJ -> F1VJQ
[22:49] <F1VJQ> hi harvy
[22:49] <harvy> I'm guessing the night shift.
[22:49] <harvy> Just wondering if anyone can help out with a GPS issue.
[22:49] <myier> the antenna is working great
[22:49] <F1VJQ> yes.. I'm expecting to get sigs from B-63 but it's still 565km from me.... I can decode at 440km!
[22:50] <F1VJQ> myier good ... make sure you test it at a decent distance, not just on the bench!!
[22:50] <myier> I have a 2m cable attached to it
[22:50] <myier> oh the payload you meant?
[22:50] <F1VJQ> more than one flight has been OK at launch site and lost sigs after a few minutes
[22:51] <myier> ok
[22:51] <F1VJQ> if you have a place to test aver say up to 10km that's good
[22:51] <harvy> If i run my code without GPS setup then the baud is around 50 but with GPS in the setup() it sound like it's 1 baud.
[22:52] <myier> funny
[22:52] <F1VJQ> in UK I can hear the 10mW from a balloon TX testing at 15-20km
[22:52] <myier> yes F1VJQ I have great mountains to do that :)
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[22:52] <F1VJQ> harvy I think the "experts" may be asleep!
[22:54] <F1VJQ> harvy did you see earlier discussion about baud rate having to be set in several places?
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[22:55] <harvy> F1VJQ No, was it in todays conversation? If so I can have a look at the logs.
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[22:56] <F1VJQ> yes it was today.
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[22:57] <F1VJQ> sorry I can't help... I have not built a tracker or coded for one
[22:57] <F1VJQ> I just spend time tracking fliights
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[22:58] <F1VJQ> harvy if you follow "baud" for a start you may find other snippets of conversation which may be relevant
[22:59] <harvy> F1VJQ Yep just having a look now at the raw logs.
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[23:01] <F1VJQ> baud = 50 sound wrong anyway....
[23:02] <harvy> Well I mean 50 baud for the ntx2
[23:02] <F1VJQ> baud rate usually 4800, or 9600 etc
[23:03] <harvy> It is set to 4800 for the ublox. It's just the rtty transmission is running very slow.
[23:03] <F1VJQ> probably best to ask tomorrow... there are people with experience.. whuich I do not have
[23:03] <F1VJQ> OK... are there any loops in the code which contain another loop?
[23:04] <mfa298> harvy: I've not done much arduino but I know software serialcan cause problems
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[23:05] <mfa298> and due to how it works it could be worse at lower baud rates
[23:05] <harvy> Should I switch to hardware serial?
[23:05] <mfa298> using hardware serial for the gps might be worth a shot.
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[23:05] <HA7018> Hi!
[23:06] <HA7018> I've reinstalled my os. Went to w8.1 from w7
[23:06] <mfa298> possibly a quicker test would be to leave the gps software serial in place and leave it at 9600 baud (instead of switching to 4800) and see if that makes a difference (may not fix it but the timing may improve)
[23:06] <HA7018> dl-fldigi shows me runtime error ..... HTTP403
[23:06] <HA7018> What did I wrong?
[23:07] <myier> maybe habitat is not working
[23:07] <cipher_> I tried gsm gprs trackers and as you guys said they are bad. Thinking about getting a radio tracker, but very new to radio. I don't know what tracker I should get and how much it will cost, same for the receiver. What will you suggest for a guy like me?
[23:07] <myier> HA7018: I have no error when I launch it, so maybe it's working
[23:08] <mfa298> HA7018: could be an issue with a proxy server if you have to go via one
[23:08] <HA7018> No proxy here
[23:08] <harvy> mfa298: Damn don't have the hardware to start debugging that.
[23:08] <myier> a firewall maybe
[23:09] <harvy> I'll ask tomorrow
[23:09] <HA7018> disabled the firewall, but same error
[23:09] <mfa298> harvy: for the simple baud rate change just remove the lines at 40-42 in your code so it stays at 9600
[23:09] <F1VJQ> best bet I think Harvy there will be guys here who know, but not this late in Europe
[23:10] <F1VJQ> apart from mfa298 that is
[23:10] <mfa298> And I should probably be sleeping ...
[23:11] <F1VJQ> cipher it is late - best ask tomorrow
[23:11] <cipher_> ok
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[23:12] <harvy> mfa298: Do you still need to flush()?
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[23:12] <mfa298> cipher_: if you want something off the shelf then look at habduino (needs an arduino) or Pi in the Sky (needs a Raspberry Pi). Otherwise look at SPOT
[23:12] <mfa298> harvy: I don't think so
[23:13] <harvy> mfa298: Also won't this conflict with the other serial above?
[23:14] <mfa298> If you just remove (comment out) those three lines I don't think it will impact any thing else.
[23:16] <myier> good night
[23:16] <mfa298> In your current code you open the GPS software serial at 9600 baud (line 30), then tell the gps to use 4800 Baud (line 40) and switch the gps software serial to 4800 baud (line 41 and 42)
[23:16] <myier> good luck F1VJQ with B-63
[23:16] <HA7018> My bad, I found the mistake...
[23:16] <HA7018> Sorry for bothering
[23:16] <mfa298> the various serial. lines are printing out the data to the serial console which you're using for debug
[23:16] <mfa298> HA7018: might be useful to share the issue in case it affects somone else
[23:17] <F1VJQ> myier thanks. it is at 538km and I need it to be 440km or less
[23:17] <F1VJQ> I may not stay here since 100km will take maybe 2 hours!!
[23:18] <HA7018> I changed the altitude with longitude in settings, absollutely my mistake :)
[23:18] <F1VJQ> 59km/h
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[23:18] <F1VJQ> HA7018 good that you found the problem
[23:19] <HA7018> It's too late, and my eye are tired, the letters are small :D
[23:19] <F1VJQ> yes!!
[23:19] <HA7018> Again: sorry for bothering with so stupid mistake, Good Night all!
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[23:20] <craag_philcrump> Well done for working it out HA7018, good night!
[23:20] <F1VJQ> Goodnight
[23:20] <craag_philcrump> bah
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[23:21] <F1VJQ> craag_philcrump I am hoping to be first to get Contestia from B-63 after Atlantic crossing.... but it is going so slowly!!
[23:22] <harvy> Do I not need to set the ublox to use 9600?
[23:22] <harvy> I can't seem to set it to flight mode now.
[23:22] <harvy> I've also moved so my debug is now using 4800.
[23:22] <mfa298> It's 9600 by default (although you might need to power it off briefly to reset it)
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[23:23] <craag_philcrump> F1VJQ: Good luck - heading well to the south of you it looks like
[23:23] <F1VJQ> craag_philcrump I have 144.8 igate but nil so far and I want to get 434.5 sigs.. but I fear it will be out of range if I wait till tomorrow!
[23:23] <craag_philcrump> go to sleep now and get up for a bit at 3am?
[23:23] <F1VJQ> craag_philcrump I am on map to north of Bordeaux Merignac
[23:24] <craag_philcrump> Yep I see you
[23:24] <craag_philcrump> ah wait
[23:24] <craag_philcrump> wrong callsign
[23:24] <F1VJQ> craag_philcrump not easy... I am in garage for the shack... and xyl sleeps above it!!
[23:24] <craag_philcrump> oh no, correct
[23:24] <craag_philcrump> grr sleepy eyes
[23:24] <craag_philcrump> haha ok!
[23:24] <F1VJQ> craag_philcrump slamming garage door wakes her up!!
[23:24] <craag_philcrump> Leave it all switched on overnight?
[23:25] <F1VJQ> and so does closing it
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[23:25] <F1VJQ> yes... but I can only leave igate running since I have no way of knowing the freq for ISM APRS accurately
[23:25] <harvy> Ok power cycled and it seems to have switched back to 9600
[23:26] <craag_philcrump> The ISM APRS is at 434.500
[23:26] <harvy> It's now running faster but still pumping out gobbldigook
[23:26] <craag_philcrump> and being FM AFSK, doesn't need to be accurate
[23:26] <harvy> in dl-fldigi
[23:27] <F1VJQ> craag_philcrump assuming it will be within capture range at 400km +
[23:27] <harvy> maybe switch to an even higher baud?
[23:28] <mfa298> harvy: If the rtty is now running faster that would suggest software serial is causing some of the issues at least.
[23:29] <craag_philcrump> good luck F1VJQ! and good night!
[23:30] <mfa298> moving the gps to the hardware uart is the proper way to go but then you may need an ftdi cable so you can use software serial for the debug messages (that should have fewer issues)
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[23:31] <F1VJQ> craag_philcrump GN Phil - pity B-63 doesn't have +30dBW into a 12 ele like I have here!!
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[23:33] <harvy> mfa298: Yeah I guess I need the hardware for that.
[23:33] <harvy> I will ask tomorrow to see if anyone has another solution for this.
[23:34] <harvy> probably try a higher baud when I find the PUBX string for it.
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[23:35] <mfa298> higher baud may cause other issues.the gps will send data more rapidly so unless you're grabbing it quickly enough you'll drop characters.
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[00:00] --- Wed Aug 6 2014