highaltitude.log.20140802

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[00:15] <vk3pb> hi all
[00:22] <vk3pb> uh oh its headed for that tree again
[00:22] <vk3pb> its almost right over where the other one landed
[00:26] <vk3pb> POP!
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[00:36] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_U-2
[00:36] <SpeedEvil> After a pilot almost accidentally ingested an L-pill instead of candy during a December 1956 flight the suicide pills were put into boxes to avoid confusion.
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[02:36] <vk3pb> Are you online Andy?
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[03:14] <wenko> are we assuming that m0xer-3 is dead?
[03:20] <arko> no
[03:20] <arko> just taking its time over the atlantic
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[03:54] <jaymzx> I saw a hysplit that looked like B63 could be stuck in a vortex over the mid Atlantic.
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[07:34] <cipher0> can anyone explain me what the payload weight has to do with burst altitude?
[07:34] <cipher0> I imagine more weight just means slower ascent rate
[07:36] <thasti> well a heavier payload means you need more gas in your balloon, making it stretch out earlier and bursting at a lower altitude
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[07:37] <thasti> but heavier payload + larger balloon can result in the same burst altitude as light payload + smaller balloon
[07:37] <cipher0> but what if Im using the same volume of gas?
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[07:37] <cipher0> Doesnt that just change the ascent speed?
[07:37] <thasti> then it should only affect ascent rate, yes
[07:38] <cipher0> OK
[07:38] <thasti> (assuming it's still able to reach the burst altitude with the increased mass)
[07:39] <cipher0> you mean assuming it would ascent?
[07:39] <cipher0> (at all)
[07:39] <mikestir> and you might want to have some flexibility on ascent rate (e.g. by putting in extra gas) in case the prediction isn't great
[07:41] <thasti> cipher0: ascend speed decreases with increasing altitude, if you make your payload too heavy (even it starts to ascend at the start location), it might start to float when gravity and buoyancy cancel out
[07:41] <cipher0> OK
[07:42] <cipher0> So you need a minimum ascent rate to start with?
[07:42] <thasti> if you don't want it to float, yes - but it's hard to exactly say how much it has to be
[07:43] <thasti> but the burst calculators usually tell you correct values
[07:43] <cipher0> OK.
[07:43] <mfa298> cipher0: generally people aim for an ascent rate of around 5 m/s. If it's lower than that there's a chance the balloon won't burst but will keep flying until the latex degrades in the sunlight (after a day or two)
[07:44] <cipher0> The reason I asked is I got an email from PAWAN saying that the burst altitude of their 600g balloons is 28,000 meters for a 250 gram payload.
[07:44] <cipher0> Which sounded like it depended on the payload weight
[07:45] <cipher0> And I wanted to add increase my payload by 100g
[07:45] <mfa298> use habhub.org/calc to experiment with different payload weights, balloons, ascent rates and see how the altitude changes
[07:45] <thasti> it only does indirectly, correct - to get the same start ascent rate, you need to put in more gas, etc
[07:46] <cipher0> I dont understand , sorry
[07:46] <mikestir> 600g sounds a bit small for a 350g payload
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[07:47] <cipher0> but the calculator says I'll get a 5.80 m/s ascent rate
[07:47] <mikestir> does it? fair enough then
[07:48] <mfa298> cipher0: different question. What GPS are you planning on using and how does it get it's data back to you (I think you've mentioned it has internal batteries so I'm assuming it's an all in one device)
[07:48] <thasti> cipher0: they are assuming you want the balloon to burst - so if your payload is heavier, and you want to have the same ascent rate (to still make it burst), you need to put in more gas, which will make it burst earlier (as the latex needs to expand earlier)
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[07:49] <cipher0> hm, what do you mean? It will burst at higher altitude than I want, or wont burst at all?
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[07:50] <mikestir> if you keep the amount of gas the same it might not burst at all (or it might go a very long way), and if you put more gas in to compensate then it won't go as high
[07:50] <mfa298> if the ascent rate is slow under around 4m/s there's a chance it won't burst (or at least no based on altitude)
[07:51] <cipher0> how can I measure how much gas I need?
[07:51] <mfa298> the calculator I linked above tells you
[07:51] <cipher0> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spy-Vehicle-Real-time-tracker-GPS-GSM-GPRS-Car-Vehicle-Tracker-TK102-MINI-TRRACK-/281036010777?pt=US_Tracking_Devices&hash=item416f0d3519
[07:52] <cipher0> mfa298, its the "volume"?
[07:52] <mfa298> That GPS may not work too well for tracking your balloon. GSM networks don't work once you get above 1-2km and it may not re-connect properly once it gets back down.
[07:53] <mfa298> When people have flown GSM based trackers as backup it seems to be around a 50% chance of them working.
[07:54] <cipher0> Sure. I dont expect to get response the whole time
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[07:54] <cipher0> The Volume in that calculator doesnt change as I change the mass of the payload
[07:54] <mfa298> just be aware you may not get a response when it comes back down and lands in a ditch in which case you've lost your payload
[07:55] <mfa298> Have you set the target altitude or the target ascent rate ?
[07:55] <cipher0> yes I have
[07:55] <mikestir> of the two up/down flights I've done both landed in an area with no phone signal
[07:56] <mfa298> if the target altitude is set I don't think the volume will change. But the ascent rate will change and if it's too low it may not burst
[07:56] <mfa298> which one have you set ?
[07:56] <cipher0> altitude
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[07:57] <mfa298> In that case I wouldn't expect the volume to change. The balloon will burst when it reaches a certain size which is dependant on how much gas is in it
[07:58] <cipher0> I'm using a mobile provider which has coverage for almost all the country, it even works in small villages in far away mountains
[07:58] <mfa298> with altitude set you'll see Ascent rate change. If you set Target Ascent Rate instead you'll see tevolume change.
[07:58] <cipher0> well my question was, any way to calculate how much gas I need (if ill decide to use heavier payload)?
[07:58] <thasti> cipher0: you wouldn't expect how easily payloads find spots with no coverage :p
[07:59] <cipher0> haha
[07:59] <cipher0> EDIT: OK, mfa298, that works
[08:00] <mfa298> also remember the coverage at head hight (1-2m above ground) is *much* better than on the ground or in a ditch where the payload is likely to land.
[08:01] <mfa298> If you want something you can just buy that will work (mostly) get a SPOT tracker. Otherwise look at building a radio tracker.
[08:01] <cipher0> how many ditches do you have in your country? :p
[08:02] <cipher0> I dont know what SPOT tracker is to be honest, googling
[08:03] <arko> http://habexproject.org/spot/
[08:03] <cipher0> I talked with a radio shop owner about using radio instead of GPS, but he suggested not to because "expensive, heavy and phone signals even reach plane heights"
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[08:04] <thasti> well he was wrong in all ways^^
[08:05] <cipher0> they're all stuck in the USSR era so i wouldnt be surprised
[08:06] <thasti> http://ava.upuaut.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/02-TBlz9Qc-1024x768.jpg this is the size of such a tracker, it weighs <10g and part cost should be about <30$
[08:06] <mfa298> the only bit of that which cuold be right is a decent radio to pick up the radio signal can be expensive. But youonly buy it once for lots of flights and they generally keep their value on the 2bnd hand market
[08:06] <cipher0> forgive my complete lack of knowledge of radio
[08:06] <arko> theres also http://www.habduino.org/
[08:07] <cipher0> are radio recievers universal?
[08:07] <cipher0> or do i need a specific one?
[08:07] <mfa298> but you can use an rtlsdr which is a very cheap reciever (< $10)
[08:07] <thasti> there usually should be radio amateurs in your location which like to help at such events, so you may not even need to buy any receiving equipment
[08:07] <mfa298> if you're doing the UKHAS method (RTTY in the ISM band) you need a receiver capable of SSB on the 70cm band
[08:08] <cipher0> Only radio geeks I know are the guys from the shop I mentioned
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[08:08] <thasti> where are you from?
[08:09] <cipher0> Armenia
[08:09] <cipher0> and no, arko is not in Armenia
[08:09] <arko> im in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTmL4goF4nA
[08:09] <mfa298> that link has a list of radio receivers people have used
[08:10] <cipher0> Hi arko
[08:10] <arko> yoyo
[08:10] <cipher0> lol
[08:10] <arko> nsfw language on my youtube link
[08:11] <arko> i kinda want kabob now but its 1am :/
[08:12] <cipher0> well sorry to remind you
[08:12] <arko> heh all good
[08:13] <thasti> http://www.iaru-r1.org/index.php?option=com_mqcontacts&view=contact&id=5%3Afederation-of-radiosport-of-the-republic-of-armenia&catid=38%3Amember-societies&Itemid=83
[08:13] <cipher0> So I googled Spot tracker, selected my region and was sent here, http://www.globalstar.com.tr/index.php?lang=tr
[08:13] <cipher0> ;/
[08:13] <arko> oh nice find thasti
[08:14] <arko> cipher0: you really should find ham's in armenia
[08:14] <arko> as so kindly mentioned by thasti
[08:14] <thasti> FRRA doesn't seem to have a website (or my google does not show armenian pages as I couldn't read them anyway)..
[08:15] <cipher0> To tell the truth I got fed up searching
[08:15] <cipher0> I asked people for weather balloons
[08:15] <thasti> i understand now
[08:15] <cipher0> and the suspected I wanted to get into the party balloon business and called me a liar
[08:15] <cipher0> like wtf
[08:15] <arko> lol
[08:15] <thasti> yeah
[08:15] <thasti> lol
[08:16] <thasti> "the party balloon business"
[08:16] <cipher0> cant a guy have a hobby here?
[08:16] <thasti> doesn't seem easy
[08:17] <cipher0> Like imagine your asking a shop owner if they have something, and him looking at you in suspicion and asking "what for?"
[08:17] <cipher0> "I can't tell you that. That information costs a lot of money"
[08:17] <cipher0> honestly, exactly what Ive been told
[08:18] <arko> on where to find weather balloons?
[08:18] <cipher0> yeah
[08:18] <thasti> wtf
[08:18] <arko> psh
[08:18] <cipher0> everyone here should take a chill pill
[08:18] <arko> i dont recall, why is it again you cant order a balloon from randomengineering?
[08:18] <cipher0> I did Arko :)
[08:18] <arko> oh!
[08:18] <arko> well then
[08:19] <arko> good
[08:19] <cipher0> should be shipped in Monday, used faster shipping method
[08:19] <arko> nice
[08:19] <thasti> is the launch planned already?
[08:19] <arko> now you need to get your radio system
[08:19] <arko> before i go to sleep, all i can recommend is one very important thing
[08:19] <arko> TEST
[08:19] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
[08:19] <arko> then test some more
[08:20] <cipher0> Im thinking of using GPS. And yeah, I understand arko
[08:20] <arko> cool
[08:20] <cipher0> (for first time at least)
[08:20] <arko> you should check out the http://www.habduino.org/ too
[08:20] <arko> its a great tracker for first hab'ers
[08:21] <cipher0> Ill do. Thing is Im leaving on 6th and want to launch before that. Might not ship on time
[08:21] <arko> ah
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[08:22] <cipher0> promised someone to launch a present, lol
[08:22] <thasti> yeah then it may be a bit late and you better go by using the gsm tracker - radio trackers are don't really have a out-of-the-box experience (?)
[08:22] <cipher0> OK
[08:22] <thasti> even more so if you don't have receiving equipment
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[08:22] <arko> nor do people around you :/
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[08:24] <daveake> Because, generally, you don't want a slower ascent rate
[08:24] <daveake> a) slower means it goes further (e.g. into the sea, or another country)
[08:24] <daveake> b) slower may mean it doesn't burst
[08:24] <cipher0> daveake, sorry, what are you replying to?
[08:25] <daveake> So to keep the ascent rate unchanged, more payload weight means more gas means lower burst altitude
[08:28] <cipher0> thanks for all the info
[08:28] <cipher0> One last thing, is there something like Google Earth, but offline?
[08:29] <cipher0> the world map, or at least a region stored in memory?
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[08:34] <daveake> cipher0 Aim for 5m/s and use the calculator. That will then tell you what altitude you'll get for what payload weight.
[08:34] <cipher0> Okay, thanks.
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[08:37] <daveake> It might not work at all after launch.
[08:37] <mfa298> cipher0: you may want to check some of your terminology as well, With any decent tracker it'll use GPS, that's just the system for finding out where you are from a bunch of satellites. The difference between the device you're looking at, a radio tracker and SPOT is how they get the data back to you. The device you looked at uses the GSM network, SPOT uses satellites to send the data back, and the UKHAS radio trackers use a small radio transmitter whi
[08:38] <cipher0> Right, sorry, everyone here uses the word "gps" in short for "gps tracker" or the gps devices used in cars, not the system itself. Sorry.
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[08:41] <mfa298> Just so long as you understand the difference. I've come across people that think GPS trackers work by sending their position back up to the satellites (probably not helped by various US tv shows where they apparently track someone by GPS)
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[08:41] <craag_philcrump> With a visual basic interface?
[08:42] <mfa298> it's amazing what you can do with Visual Basic these days.
[08:44] <cipher0> ok
[08:45] <cipher0> So anybody know of an offline alternative to Google Maps?
[08:45] <craag_philcrump> cipher0: THere's a good number of offline-OSM-based apps
[08:45] <daveake> As I've said a couple of times, set the ascent rate because that's the thing you don't want to change (much)
[08:46] <craag_philcrump> If you're after it for hab stuff, Matt's android app (HAB Tracker and Modem) does offline decode and plotting too.
[08:46] <cipher0> Didnt know about OpenStreetMaps
[08:47] <SpeedEvil> OSM is very variable in quality - it's decent in general where there is a high density of english speaking geeks.
[08:47] <cipher0> ok, thanks!
[08:47] <SpeedEvil> (Or german)
[08:47] <SpeedEvil> And much of the rest of the west
[08:49] <cipher0> oh
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[08:51] <mfa298> you may find google earth / google maps can save some times for offline use but I've not tried it on a computer (I've seen it on some of the android apps)
[08:51] <SpeedEvil> sharply limited area
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[09:04] <MaXimaN> cipher0: If you have an Android phone, MapsWithMe is a decent app that uses OSM
[09:05] <MaXimaN> But what SpeedEvil said about OSM is on the money. I've found it to be accurate around Western Europe and the US, but it's generally regarded to be less so elsewhere.
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[09:51] <daveake> The GPS/GSM option is the cheapest to use, but also is the one most likely to fail (thus costing you the most)
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[09:52] <daveake> Personally I would never use one on its own
[09:54] <mfa298> I think he left but hopefully he got the message (although it sounds like he may still use it and expect a successful recovery)
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[12:24] <SpeedEvil> Still going! :) (well, 3h:44m ago)
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[12:33] <Laurenceb__> three hours ?!
[12:33] <Laurenceb__> i dont follow
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> b64
[12:34] <SpeedEvil> >33Mm ground track
[12:35] <Laurenceb__> i see 2 am
[12:35] <SpeedEvil> err
[12:36] <SpeedEvil> I was believing 'recieved 3h:56m ago' via APRS on the mobile tracker
[12:40] <SpeedEvil> Old packet?
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[12:49] <lz1dev> probably someone resubmitting packets
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[15:36] <maxmed> Hi, is anyone able to help with my tracking code? When its got a gps fix it works as expected but when it loses the fix it doesnt keep transmitting the old "good data", the latitude and longitude keep transmitting the last good values but the time and altitude get all messed up and keep changing between datastrings whereas I'd expect it to stay the same until it gets a good gps fix. Can anyone see whats wrong?
[15:37] <thasti> where is the code?
[15:37] <maxmed> code is here: https://github.com/Max-Med/New_HAB_Code/blob/master/New_HAB_Code_ino_ino/New_HAB_Code_ino_ino.ino relevant parts are lines 79-85 and 115-123
[15:38] <SpeedEvil> Are you actually looking for the 'valid' flag in the data?
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[15:47] <maxmed> sorry my internet seemed to randomly fail. I don't know if my last message went through, here it is again (or possibly for the third time-can't tell!): actually maby I am using the "valid" flag as i use the line "if (gps.encode(c)) { " which should only return true if the data is valid?
[15:49] <SpeedEvil> I don't know the library you're using
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/nmea.htm#GLL - for example
[15:50] <SpeedEvil> the fifth field is either 'A' or 'V' - if it's V, it's not valid
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[16:07] <maxmed> if using the tinygps library can you use the "stats" to se if the gps data is valid? (see 2nd section here: http://arduiniana.org/libraries/tinygps/) would I look at the number of sentances that failed the checksum test and if this number is greater than say 5 then say the data is invalid?
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[16:15] <SpeedEvil> no clue, sorry
[16:16] <maxmed> ok, no worries, I will try some experimentation!
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[16:24] <Ai4W> hello
[16:24] <Ai4W> help
[16:24] <Ai4W> -help
[16:25] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> try /help
[16:26] <Ai4W> thanks Geogg
[16:26] <Ai4W> Thank Geoff
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[16:40] <mfa298> that was a short visit
[16:40] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Atleast I could help ;-)
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[17:17] <bigun> Hello All
[17:17] <SpeedEvil> hey
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[17:52] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[18:22] <SA6BSS> VK3YT-9 just reached New zeeland ...cool!
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[18:29] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> jcoxon: hey
[18:30] <jcoxon> balloon is so continental theses days
[18:31] <jcoxon> what happened to the up/down flights :-)
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[18:32] <Lunar_Lander> jcoxon, we do them xD
[18:33] <DL7AD> evening
[18:33] <N2NXZ> VK3YT-9...nice flight so far
[18:34] <N2NXZ> Hello DL7AD
[18:34] <DL7AD> hi N2NXZ
[18:34] <N2NXZ> Was goofing around and listened to Azores/Nova Scotian web tuners for B-63 just for fun
[18:34] <N2NXZ> Not many web tuner choices
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[18:48] <es5nhc> Anything heard from B63?
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[18:54] <SpeedEvil> not yet
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[19:19] <LeoBodnar> we need more HF floaters
[19:21] <yo9ict> Leo, any chance for B-64 to be heard again ? :D
[19:22] <LeoBodnar> hope so :D
[19:27] <F1VJQ> Leo "Low Earth Orbit" Bodnar
[19:29] <fsphil> B-63 just showed up in the atlantic
[19:29] <yo9ict> Yupee
[19:29] <myier> great!
[19:30] <N2NXZ> Holy cow,I was just minitoring Azores radio
[19:30] <F1VJQ> B-63 Yeah!!
[19:30] <N2NXZ> Going to listen again'
[19:30] <fsphil> lol
[19:30] <fsphil> when will it end
[19:30] <fsphil> it's going to B forever
[19:31] <F1VJQ> which APRS receiver is that on, I wonder?
[19:31] <fsphil> CU3CO
[19:31] <daveake> You wait forever for a circumnavigating balloon, then 2 come along at once
[19:31] <F1VJQ> CU3 = Madeira?
[19:32] <N2NXZ> Frequency expected?
[19:32] <fsphil> heading south east
[19:32] <fsphil> towards africa
[19:32] <daveake> CU3CO
[19:32] <daveake> oh so slow
[19:32] <mattbrejza> its following some of hte hysplit paths
[19:32] <LeoBodnar> B-63: 613 hours
[19:32] <mattbrejza> itll swing up towards spain at some pount
[19:33] <LeoBodnar> lol
[19:33] <F1VJQ> CU3CO > TERCEIRA AZORES
[19:33] <daveake> excellent
[19:33] <fsphil> Azores .. the HAB outpost of the atlantic ocean
[19:33] <daveake> :)
[19:33] <F1VJQ> at least a new hysplit will give a better prediction
[19:33] <LeoBodnar> there was a guy who was receiving 434.500 there last time
[19:34] <LeoBodnar> need to look at the logs
[19:34] <LeoBodnar> 'twas B-45
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[19:36] <LeoBodnar> CS8ABA
[19:38] <N2NXZ> Been listening on the Azores web tuner all morning...
[19:40] <LeoBodnar> B-63 is rather high
[19:40] <LeoBodnar> 25 days afloat
[19:41] <mattbrejza> latitude related?
[19:43] <LeoBodnar> arko run a correlation analysis and did not find much
[19:44] <LeoBodnar> maybe need more data averaged over msl pressure and temperature
[19:52] <arko> woah
[19:52] <arko> what in the world
[19:52] <arko> aprs in the atlantic?
[19:53] <arko> ok, now that i'm home i'll do some actual analysis :P
[19:55] <F1VJQ> aprs on Terceira Island, Azores
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[19:55] <LeoBodnar> Azores ftw! Helped a few transatlantic fligts
[19:56] <fsphil> hah
[19:56] <arko> :D
[19:56] <arko> thats epic
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[19:57] <SpeedEvil> Ridonkulous.
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[19:58] Nick change: nigelvh -> Guest19233
[19:58] <arko> anyone have a hysplit?
[20:00] <SpeedEvil> So, what's the cumulative time that Leos got on the map? :)
[20:00] <wenko> NICE! it's back
[20:00] <wenko> that's great!
[20:01] <Lunar_Lander> yay
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[20:06] <SpeedEvil> hah
[20:07] <SpeedEvil> The track of b63 - before it's loaded the last wiggle - is longer than b64 was when it crossed the meridian
[20:07] <SpeedEvil> Err - you know what I mean
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[20:08] <Laurenceb__> holy shit
[20:08] <Laurenceb__> B-63 back
[20:09] <Laurenceb__> approaching 4 weeks airborne
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> Quite silly
[20:11] <SpeedEvil> Diddn't you calculate the diffusion limit as being 3?
[20:12] <LeoBodnar> i think diffusion is measured in months
[20:12] <SpeedEvil> ah
[20:13] <Laurenceb__> yes, months
[20:13] <Laurenceb__> for H2
[20:13] <Laurenceb__> i got of order 100 days
[20:14] <Laurenceb__> so 50 or so for Helium
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[20:16] <Laurenceb__> tomorrow morning is 26 days?
[20:16] <LeoBodnar> half way there
[20:17] <LeoBodnar> B-63 start 8/7/14 06:53 613.4 hours 25.56 days
[20:17] <LeoBodnar> 0653UTC tomorrow is 26 days
[20:17] <Laurenceb__> need flight time counter on snus
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[20:19] <SpeedEvil> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/120189_trj001.gif lazy hysplit
[20:19] <jcoxon> interesting how it managed to sneak past the azores before it got rx'd
[20:20] <Laurenceb__> is the log coming through?
[20:20] <arko> LeoBodnar: http://imgur.com/a/P5LQx
[20:20] <LeoBodnar> yeah a bit
[20:21] <arko> terrible R^2 values and the trends show complete opposite results
[20:21] <arko> :/ bummer
[20:21] <LeoBodnar> is curent point here? it's 13251m
[20:22] <Laurenceb__> how strange
[20:23] <Laurenceb__> i was going to look at oscillation frequency
[20:23] <Maxell> partyyyyy B-63
[20:23] <Laurenceb__> but i realised the sample time is uneven
[20:23] <Laurenceb__> is there sample time from habitat?
[20:25] <LeoBodnar> yes, timestamp is there
[20:25] <LeoBodnar> $$B-63,7061,140021,140730,46.7317,-33.1618,13117,9,-16,4.53,0.67*633E
[20:26] <LeoBodnar> 14:00:21 is sample time
[20:26] <Laurenceb__> ah
[20:27] <LeoBodnar> 140730 is date
[20:27] <Laurenceb__> at some point ill try doing some spectrograms...
[20:27] <arko> wow http://imgur.com/a/tEpuJ
[20:27] <arko> what a mess
[20:27] <LeoBodnar> if you can account for sea level pressure and temperature...
[20:28] <arko> looks like altitude isn't really related to temperature, as expected from a super pressure balloon
[20:28] <arko> yeah
[20:28] <LeoBodnar> payload temperature?
[20:28] <arko> yeah, that varies due do operation too doesnt it?
[20:28] <LeoBodnar> it's massively heated by the sun
[20:28] <arko> ah
[20:28] <LeoBodnar> by design
[20:28] <arko> right, fancy trash bag :)
[20:28] <LeoBodnar> night is better
[20:29] <arko> i should look at night data only
[20:29] <LeoBodnar> so if solar panel voltage is ~0 then payload temp is OAT
[20:29] <arko> good point
[20:29] <LeoBodnar> there is still local pressure variations
[20:29] <arko> thats what im looking at now, what exactly AMSL means and how barometric pressure at the given altitude changes based on weather/climate
[20:30] <LeoBodnar> ideal SP balloon is really a constant density device
[20:30] <LeoBodnar> well it floats at the same air density level
[20:30] <Laurenceb__> looks like it will hit more aprs from Canaries
[20:31] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, will there be enough data/days to fill in the gaps?
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> some of them i hope
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> it's ~5 days long
[20:32] <lz1dev> what receiving b63?
[20:32] <lz1dev> some boat?
[20:32] <Laurenceb__> how long does it take to tx the log?
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> Azores
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> Oooh - new hysplit on the tracker
[20:33] <SpeedEvil> Looks like spain
[20:34] <lz1dev> ahhh
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[20:34] <lz1dev> completely forgot about those tiny islands
[20:34] <SpeedEvil> 3/4/5 days or so time
[20:34] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb__: 17 hours at current rate
[20:34] <Laurenceb__> ah
[20:34] <LeoBodnar> it's "an early model"
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[20:36] <lz1dev> does it send backlog on aprs?
[20:39] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[20:41] <F1VJQ> LeoBodnar is the backlog just lat/long?
[20:42] <LeoBodnar> no, full telemetry
[20:42] <SpeedEvil> how much backlog is it likely to get in the next 3 hours or so?
[20:42] <SpeedEvil> - before it runs out of radio range
[20:43] <LeoBodnar> it's sending one 2-hour point each 8th message
[20:43] <SpeedEvil> ah
[20:43] <LeoBodnar> so at 2min per message it's 4 log points per hour
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> it's now at 30th July
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> so perhaps we will see all points up to now
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> *from 30th July up to now
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> :)
[20:45] <SpeedEvil> Oh - I see more points now - cool
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[20:47] <lz1dev> the older points won't show up on hmt, unless you refresh
[20:48] <F1VJQ> Terceira is the second most populated Azorean island with 58000 inhabitants
[20:52] <lz1dev> the next GFS cycle should complete in 2 hours
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[20:56] <maxmed> I am now totally confused why my tracking code isn't working as expected. I added in a "truecount" which counts the number of good gps datastrings generated, when the code detects "good" data it saves the gps data to a copy set of variables to be used if the gps fix is lost. I've run the code and when it loses the gps fix the "truecount" stops going up showing it is correctly detecting that the data is not good so the copy data
[20:57] <maxmed> but then the time and altitude it transmits keeps changing to seemingly random values when they should stay the same until it regains a gps lock. the lat/lon work as expected when the gps fix is lost. Code is here: https://github.com/Max-Med/New_HAB_Code/blob/master/New_HAB_Code_ino_ino/New_HAB_Code_ino_ino.ino surely there is something I'm missing? Any ideas?
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[21:01] <myier> maxmed: I don't see anything preventing this from happening, you still make the snprintf with the new value instead of the remembered value
[21:01] <arko> LeoBodnar: http://imgur.com/a/hud7Q
[21:02] <arko> not sure what to interprit from this
[21:03] <arko> one thing i am assume here is that b63 and b64 both were the same balloon
[21:03] <myier> oh ok there are several places where you do the snprintf with the full string, probably it's done always in the first one when you expect it done in other ifs
[21:03] <myier> maxmed: ^
[21:04] <maxmed> myier: see lines 117-125 - that is the snprintf function which prints the "remembered" values only when it loses it's gps fix, for normal running I use the latest values as generally these are already good
[21:05] <myier> yes, but your test isn't right I guess, gps.encode
[21:05] Nick change: DL7AD_ -> DL7AD
[21:06] <myier> you can have data, not enter the if at line 80 and send the wrong GPS data line 90
[21:06] <maxmed> myier, just seen your post, it is definitely using the correct snprintf function as it starts off "$$MAX, WARNING STALE DATA". I think the issue must be in lines 80-87 but can't see any issues?
[21:07] <myier> ok
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[21:09] <jcoxon> Remember everyone that hte UKHAS conference is soon
[21:09] <jcoxon> ticket still available
[21:09] <myier> I can't make it :(
[21:10] <myier> maxmed: I don't see an obvious issue
[21:10] <myier> jcoxon: but Upu told me two weeks ago that the number of attendees had to be fixed yesterday for cathering
[21:11] <malclocke> just woke up to discover VK3YT-9 went over my head an hour ago :(
[21:11] <jcoxon> they do but we can squeeze more people
[21:11] <myier> oh yes maxmed I see
[21:11] <myier> your blat and blon variables need to be global
[21:16] <maxmed> but the blat and blon already work corectly, its the balt, bhour, bminute, bsecond that all dont work and there all defined in the same place! And aren't all the "b-variables" only used int he void loop where they are defined?
[21:16] <myier> oh I see the 2013 presentations were video recorded, that's great!
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[21:17] <myier> maxmed: I don't know why these two work, but indeed that's the same for others, and they all should be global
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[21:18] <maxmed> ok, I'll try moving them all
[21:18] <myier> oh it's in the same loop?
[21:19] <myier> I don't see how it could be in the same loop since it's either setting them because data is good or using them because it's not
[21:19] <myier> from what I undertand it's just a scope issue
[21:20] <malclocke> am hearing faint APRS packets from VK3YT-9 with 2m yagi I think
[21:20] <maxmed> I think its all happening int he void loop() where they are all defined. There are in separete if/else/while loops. I'll try moving them and see if that works
[21:22] <maxmed> The only other thing I can think of is if when I put balt=alt; it is setting it so balt is always equal to alt so if alt changes it automatically changes balt as well even if the alt=balt line is not run again. Do you see what I mean?
[21:26] <maxmed> Just signed up for conference, hadn't spotted it before!
[21:30] <myier> maxmed: balt = alt only copies values, there's no update afterwards
[21:31] <myier> I would be the case for pointers, not for value types
[21:33] Nick change: jaymzx_away -> jaymzx
[21:36] <tweetBot> @G8DHE: HAB UPDATE: B-63 has now appeared over the Atlantic and is currently amining for the Azores http://t.co/PcZtZMPvqZ #ukhas #hamr #hab
[21:37] <tweetBot> @G8DHE: HAB UPDATE:B-64 continues its flight now over the Barents Sea #ukhas #hamr #hab
[21:38] <tweetBot> @G8DHE: HAB UPDATE: B-66 was last heard from over Mongolia, it was expected to have been heard in Japan but no telemetry so far .. #ukhas #hamr #hab
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[21:43] <Laurenceb__> anyone here any good with tables in tex ?
[21:45] <Laurenceb__> im not really getting anywhere with them :-S
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[22:06] <F1VJQ> If only I knew what "tables in tex" was....
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[22:13] <Ian_> I am assuming that Tex and LaTex are synonimous. F1VJQ: Latex is a technical text layout formatting program much used for creating technical documents for academia such as Thesis documents.
[22:13] <mattbrejza> current stable release of tex is 3.14159265 lol
[22:14] <Burninate> Say you have a wheeled payload, and don't need to worry about horizontal velocity at landing. How does a sphere-chute compare to a parafoil in terms of drop rate per parachute mass fraction?
[22:16] <Ian_> F1VJQ, Laurenceb__: this seems to be a basic how to, but probably not what you are looking for Laurence. I have struggled to produce technical documents in the past. Few and far between so not really acquainted. How about http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Tables
[22:16] <Laurenceb__> yeah i was looking for guidelines on paragraph wrapping in cells
[22:16] <Laurenceb__> thanks anyway
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[22:17] <Laurenceb__> i think i can hack it with \parbox
[22:17] <Laurenceb__> but its nasty
[22:17] <Ian_> I would hate to think that you might just have overlooked the obvious :)
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[22:18] <mfa298> I wouldn't be surprised if there's a dedicated channel on IRC somewhere (possibly freenode) for LaTeX
[22:18] <Laurenceb__> B-63 is out of range?
[22:18] <Laurenceb__> its dead
[22:19] <mattbrejza> \multirow{4}{*}{\begin{minipage}{5cm} ... \end{minipage}} Laurenceb__
[22:19] <Ian_> quote LaTeX's algorithms for formatting tables have a few shortcomings. One is that it will not automatically wrap text in cells, even if it overruns the width of the page /quote
[22:19] <Laurenceb__> ah minipage
[22:19] <Laurenceb__> thanks
[22:20] <Ian_> What's the easiest, doing a thesis or producing the documentation . . .
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[22:20] <LeoBodnar> http://aprs.fi/#!call=a%2FCU3CO digi is behind a hill
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[22:22] <F1VJQ_back> Ian_ thanks dropped out on last seession
[22:22] <F1VJQ_back> mattbrejza Pi in the sky stuff then...
[22:23] <mattbrejza> ?
[22:24] Nick change: DL7AD_ -> DL7AD
[22:24] <F1VJQ_back> mattbrejza current stable release of tex is 3.14159265 lol
[22:24] <mattbrejza> oh right
[22:24] <lz1dev> silly programmers
[22:25] <F1VJQ_back> I'm on here 22/7 LOL
[22:25] <F1VJQ_back> lz1dev which ones?
[22:26] <lz1dev> all of em
[22:29] <mfa298> no worse than linux 3.11 being called linux for work groups
[22:30] Action: mfa298 assumes that kernel version was full of bugs
[22:31] <F1VJQ_back> lz1dev silly like Microsoft when a window popped up saying "There is an error" and only button was "OK" - idiots
[22:32] <lz1dev> well
[22:32] <lz1dev> you jsut have to terms with teh fact that there was an error
[22:32] <mfa298> http://cromwell-intl.com/linux/pictures/mouse_movement_error.jpg
[22:32] <lz1dev> live goes on
[22:32] <lz1dev> life
[22:33] <F1VJQ_back> lz1dev if they don't say what the error is, or give you a chance to do something... what is the point!!
[22:33] <F1VJQ_back> lazy programming
[22:34] <F1VJQ_back> mfa298 nice one
[22:35] <lz1dev> its not that bad
[22:35] <lz1dev> you've got to commend their efford on backward compability
[22:35] <mfa298> it's a great one to set as the default background and see people get very confused
[22:35] <lz1dev> obviously that has the drawbacks of people still running DOS accounting software
[22:35] <lz1dev> but hey...
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[22:36] <F1VJQ_back> why shouldn't ppl use old systems? I hate all the built in obselescence... my 5 XP computers all work fine... so why would I want to buy 5 more with Windows8?
[22:37] <mfa298> because Ms decided that it was time to stop supporting a 10 year old operating system.
[22:38] <mfa298> unfortunately softare is the complete opposite of good wine / whiskey. It doesn't get better with age
[22:38] <F1VJQ_back> lz1dev I had to write a dish control program for a friend ... his DOS program worked as intended, but his laptop failed... and the new one didn't have the DOS drivers...
[22:38] <F1VJQ_back> mfa298 well that's up to them... my decision to stay with what I want, not what they say I need
[22:40] <F1VJQ_back> lz1dev I wrote it in VB5 to control a 3.7m EME dish
[22:40] <lz1dev> i wonder if there is a project for an OS
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[22:40] <lz1dev> that would run virtualized windows linux
[22:40] <lz1dev> on the same hardware
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[22:40] <Laurenceb__> mattbrejza: is there a flushleft alternative to centering?
[22:40] <lz1dev> and be able to switch between the two
[22:40] <lz1dev> at run time
[22:40] <F1VJQ_back> lz1dev an op sys should be just that... it does what it does....
[22:40] <mfa298> Plus computers built in the last 8 years generally have features that windows XP doesn't support (unless you want to run 64 Bit XP - which is *much* worse than even WinME for those that remember that)
[22:41] <mattbrejza> Laurenceb__: not sure , i just copied that out of a document i had lying around
[22:41] <Laurenceb__> k
[22:41] <mattbrejza> i didnt even write that bit :P
[22:42] <mattbrejza> isnt centering/left defined by the table 'header'?
[22:42] <F1VJQ_back> mfa298 I don't need to swipe or gesture or use apps .... so XP is fine for what I want!!
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[22:43] <F1VJQ_back> mfa298 all Empires fall eventually.... and MS have lost the plot
[22:43] <F1VJQ_back> Roman Empire.... gone
[22:43] <mfa298> I was thinking of things like 64 bit processors (which is only a newish feature in the intel world) which XP can't support.
[22:45] <F1VJQ_back> mfa298 who would want/need 64 bit if their current hardware/software is 32?
[22:45] <mfa298> if you think MS have lost the plot then there are alternatives to using a 10 year old OS.
[22:46] <F1VJQ_back> mfa28 I go back as far as ICT 1900 and when we had 16k mainframes
[22:47] <mfa298> sorry not 10 year old, almost 13 years old now (launched 24th August 2001)
[22:47] <F1VJQ_back> the PLAN assembler ran 15 bit addressing
[22:47] <F1VJQ_back> but it allowed 22bit addressing....and if there wasn't enough memory, we used memory overlays....
[22:48] <mfa298> I think my firefox instance would disagree to only needing a 32 bit OS
[22:48] <F1VJQ_back> age isn't the problem... MS is the problem....
[22:48] <F1VJQ_back> 32 bits... in a PC ... bloody absurd
[22:48] <F1VJQ_back> 64 I mean
[22:49] <mfa298> Well as I said if you disagree with MS there's always Linux / MacOS or a variety of other current operating systems
[22:49] <F1VJQ_back> who needs that much addressable memory?
[22:49] <LeoBodnar> VMS
[22:49] <qyx_> wut
[22:49] <qyx_> who would run 32bit nowadays?
[22:49] <LeoBodnar> i do :D
[22:50] <myier> I do too!
[22:50] <mfa298> remember that the x86 architecture is a late comer to the 64 processor market. Other platforms have been 64 bit for a lot longer
[22:50] <F1VJQ_back> 32 bit addresses a huge amont of memory... decent programmers were able to run big businesses on 192k mainframes
[22:50] <qyx_> last 32bit os i had was debian etch
[22:50] <qyx_> which was like 6 years ago
[22:50] <LeoBodnar> i run 32 bit and patch and fix 64s
[22:50] <qyx_> or so
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[22:51] <fsphil> all been downhill since 8-bit
[22:51] <LeoBodnar> 64 bit is Y2K all over again
[22:51] <F1VJQ_back> all the 64bit addressing is about is programmers who haven't a clue about efficient code
[22:51] <qyx_> the only 32bit apps i encounter today are windows apps and some proprietary CAD packages for linux
[22:51] <LeoBodnar> upgrade or you die
[22:52] <N2NXZ> I still have a good working Compaq 166mhz laptop...payed 2 dollars for it.Works fine on 98SE :)
[22:52] <LazyLeopard> Skype's trying that one. With luck it'll die...
[22:52] <LeoBodnar> plasma screen one?
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[22:52] <mfa298> 32 bit is only OK until 2038 then the world is going to begin again at 1970
[22:52] <N2NXZ> Old cream colored,built like a tank
[22:52] <F1VJQ_back> N2NXZ Like it!! as I say... an op system is an op system... it does what it says on the tin
[22:53] <N2NXZ> Crap today last 2 years or less
[22:53] <fsphil> hwo do you know? :)
[22:53] <N2NXZ> $$$$$$$$$ in the recycling bin
[22:54] <fsphil> my desktop pc is about 6 years old now
[22:54] <fsphil> it's still fast enough, no plans to upgrade
[22:54] <N2NXZ> 1200 dollar laptops to run facebook...lol
[22:54] Action: mfa298 plans on taking the 3.5 year old netbook to the conference again this year.
[22:54] <qyx_> it is like classical ideological fight whether 8bit AVR is better than 32bit Cortex for the same price
[22:54] <LeoBodnar> Macs are the worst
[22:54] <LeoBodnar> they just keep being useful
[22:54] <mfa298> and that's handled balloon chases, being dropped and all sorts.
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[22:55] <fsphil> LeoBodnar: my old mac mini isn't very useful :(
[22:55] <LeoBodnar> hard to come up with a reason to get the new one
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[22:55] <LeoBodnar> fsphil: is it PowerPC?
[22:55] <fsphil> yes
[22:55] <F1VJQ_back> mfa298 dates were held in some mainframes as number of days since 1st Jan 1900 ... hence you could store it as a binary number in less space than 8 characters e.g. 20140803c
[22:55] <N2NXZ> All 9 of mine are frankenstein machines 15 plus years old
[22:55] <LeoBodnar> overclock it
[22:56] <fsphil> I've nothing to run on it even if I overclocked it
[22:56] <mattbrejza> surely the date thing has nothing to do with how many bits the architecture has, its all to do with the software
[22:56] <mattbrejza> a 32bit OS is fine with 64 bit numbers
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[22:57] <F1VJQ_back> mfa298 storing date as a binary number of days etc... will run out... but character representation will not
[22:57] <F1VJQ_back> n2nxz power to the people!!
[22:57] <N2NXZ> yes
[22:57] <LeoBodnar> since when programmers are scared of large numbers
[22:58] <fsphil> this is one of the stranger topics I've seen on #ha :)
[22:58] <N2NXZ> when the world ends,my pc`s and cock roaches will be still here
[22:58] <LeoBodnar> or unable of dealing with overflowing ?
[22:59] <LeoBodnar> my unsigned char is unable to store altitude
[22:59] <LeoBodnar> i need ARM32
[22:59] <F1VJQ_back> I found a bug in Sperry 1100 mainframe COBOL complier.... when they overflowed from one 36 bit word to two....
[22:59] <F1VJQ_back> they forgot the leftmost bit was a sign bit...
[23:00] <qyx_> which reminds me
[23:00] <F1VJQ_back> compiler
[23:01] <F1VJQ_back> all double length 72 bit "words" were out to the tune of 2 ^-35
[23:02] <F1VJQ_back> 2^35
[23:02] <qyx_> that rfm69 library some of you are using also does right shift on signed int
[23:02] <qyx_> to compute rssi
[23:02] <qyx_> which has undefined behaviour
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[23:05] <mfa298> hmmm, I think the dinosaur machine I've got (which I got 2nd hand around 2002 is a 64 bit machine) so much for computer makers thinking 32 bit was enough.
[23:05] <mfa298> but then that machine is so old it only works with the 19" CRT monitor I've got
[23:06] <mattbrejza> so whether it sign extends is up to how the compiler is feeling?
[23:06] <mattbrejza> (verilog has >> and >>> to solve this)
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[23:12] <f1vjq> damn flaky ISPs
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[23:13] <LeoBodnar> i thought you said Prolog mattbrejza
[23:13] <LeoBodnar> heh
[23:13] <qyx_> lol
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[00:00] --- Sun Aug 3 2014