highaltitude.log.20140728

[00:00] <Laurenceb__> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/152461_trj001.gif
[00:00] Nick change: superkuh_ -> superkuh
[00:01] <Laurenceb__> lol theres only 3 hours in it
[00:02] <Maxell> marcel_: sure should also do the trick.
[00:02] <Maxell> Not sure why that wouldn't work.
[00:02] <Maxell> What kind of antenna for recieving?
[00:02] <Laurenceb__> 2 circumnavigations within a few hours :P
[00:03] <marcel_> we tried the logilink dongle with the default antenna, and another one with an extra diode and a home-made yagi
[00:04] <Maxell> Default antenna is not up to the task
[00:04] <Maxell> Home made yagi should do better
[00:05] <Laurenceb__> lolz 14500 datapoint
[00:06] <marcel_> ok really sleeptime now
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[00:58] <Maxell> Still going fine $$ALMA-0,515,00:57:43,52.080442,4.326670,69,7,22,2461,08,TO*0DF6 :)
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[02:04] <jiffe98> KT5TK: you in the austin area?
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[02:17] <N2NXZ> Good night all...tomorrow is another day .Good luck on the flights so far.
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[02:27] <KT5TK> jiffe98: I'm in Houston. But we launched from a friend's house in Roud Rock near Austin
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[03:53] <jiffe98> KT5TK: gotcha, cool
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[07:16] <DL7AD> morning
[07:18] <sp2ipt> hi
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[07:20] <malgar> ciao
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[07:37] <craag> cm13g09: Been away.. I seem to have a fair few pings from you!
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[09:13] <jcoxon> morning all
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[09:36] <UNamlo> Do you use anything to protect your camera?
[09:36] <UNamlo> or is it not required?
[09:38] <daveake> Less about protecting the camera more about protecting what it lands on.
[09:39] <UNamlo> do cameras handle such temeratures? or do I need to seal it with plastic or glass?
[09:43] <daveake> They generally fine. Biggest mistake is putting anything between the camera lens and the view - often that just traps moistuire and fogs up your pictures
[09:43] <daveake> ^They're
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[09:53] <jededu> Daveave do you have an extending pole for tree recovery
[09:55] <jededu> I need to purchase one
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[10:03] <daveake> Yeah, plenty on ebay
[10:04] <daveake> e.g. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10m-telescopic-fibreglass-pole-for-wind-socks-flags-etc-POL009-/230832761233?pt=UK_SportingGoods_Camping_Accessories&hash=item35beb46991
[10:05] <daveake> To pull the payload out of the tree, gaffer tape a hook to the end
[10:06] <daveake> Of if you want to cut the payload free, tape a sharp knife to it
[10:09] <daveake> Alternatively, hire a boy scout :/
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[10:09] <cyperzero> Ive made a styrofoam box, taped it up, its 200 grams with the camera, gps and parachute.
[10:10] <cyperzero> size is 17x17x10 cm
[10:10] <cyperzero> parachute size is 45x45 octagonal
[10:10] <cyperzero> descend rate is 6 m/s
[10:10] <cyperzero> good?
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[10:17] <cyperzero> Ive made a styrofoam box, taped it up, its 200 grams with the camera, gps and parachute. size is 17x17x10 cm. parachute size is 45x45 cm octagonal. descend rate is 6 m/s. tested it by throwing from 4th floor. is this any good?
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[10:18] <craag> aiming for <=5 is generally the advice
[10:18] <craag> but if it's well-padded, I wouldn't worry about 6
[10:19] <daveake> Also that's pretty light so I'd be happy with 6m/s
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[10:25] <jededu> I now have a pole and a boy thx daveake
[10:25] Action: daveake backs away slowly ...
[10:26] <jededu> lol
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[10:28] <jededu> Farmer was nice though he did try and recover it
[10:28] <jededu> Or his lad did
[10:30] <cyperzero> Thatns!
[10:30] <cyperzero> *thanks
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[10:35] <amell> jededu: how high is the tree?
[10:36] <daveake> On the ground
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[10:37] <ciperzero> is this calculator accurate for outside of USA? http://predict.habhub.org/
[10:38] <daveake> It uses global data it's just dependent on the quality of that data
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[10:39] <amell> wtf, hail storm in brighton? :)
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[10:41] <daveake> join / ask / quit. Luvvit.
[10:41] <mattbrejza> according to ukip the hail in brighton was due to their "non traditional" relationships :P
[10:42] <daveake> lol
[10:46] <simium> morning gentlemen
[10:46] <simium> when a balloon broadcasts SSDV images, how can they be uploaded "live" to the internet?
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[10:51] <mfa298> simium: if you decode the ssdv packets with dl-fldigi it will upload the packets you recieve automatically to ssdv.habhub.org
[10:52] <mfa298> and it will combine the data from other listeners so if you don't get all the packets and someone gets the packets you miss you'll still get a complete image
[10:52] <simium> oh man, that's cool
[10:55] <mattltm> dx wire do a 15m pole if you want one with a bit longer reach.
[10:59] Action: daveake has pole envy
[10:59] <mattltm> lol
[10:59] <daveake> Might need an upgrade
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[11:03] Action: amell wishes people would stop waving their poles about
[11:06] <LazyLeopard> Murphy dictates that payload will always be just too high to reach with the longest poles to hand... ;)
[11:08] <Maxell> HABduino battery test http://paste.sigio.nl/pcihmxmpz/hwnvd3/raw
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[11:09] <craag> lol Maxell
[11:09] <Maxell> craag: ?
[11:09] <Maxell> ;)
[11:12] <fsphil> hah
[11:13] <craag> should play that tune when it detects float :P
[11:15] <LeoBodnar> my mother said to get things done you'd better not mess with Major Tom
[11:17] <jededu> amell about 50ft
[11:18] <daveake> 50 feet
[11:18] Action: daveake awaits bot
[11:18] <daveake> You might need that 15 metre pole then
[11:18] <fsphil> aww
[11:19] <jededu> Its in a horrible place called the hell hole :)
[11:20] <jededu> It has no trailing string either
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[11:27] <maxmed> I just added initializing the gps in flight mode to my code: https://github.com/Max-Med/New_HAB_Code/blob/master/New_HAB_Code_ino_ino/New_HAB_Code_ino_ino.ino using the example here: http://wiki.ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox6 but it seems like an awefully complicated way of doing it, are there not any simpler ways? Also does it matter that I am using Ublox max7 not ublox 6?
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[11:32] <daveake> The complexity is mostly in the code that checks that the ublox received the command OK
[11:32] <daveake> You could not bother, but there'd be the possibility that the ublox never entered flight mode, and that's a bad thing
[11:33] <daveake> No difference between ublox 6 and 7 in this regard
[11:34] <jededu> Im trying to do exactly the same thing in basic at the moment :)
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[11:36] <maxmed> I'll leave it as is then for now. I guess if you really wanted you could have a separate program to put ublox in flight mode, run this and use a backup battery on the ublox so it stays in flight mode then upload the new code to the arduino but that sounds like more trouble than its worth.
[11:38] <adamgreig> recipe for disaster
[11:38] <adamgreig> don't do that
[11:38] <adamgreig> with some of the ubloxes you can connect an external i2c eeprom memory
[11:38] <adamgreig> and then you can program the ublox into flight mode and save to memory
[11:38] <adamgreig> and it'l load each boot
[11:38] <adamgreig> which is quite handy
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[11:45] <daveake> adamgreig He already is using the code that checks (albeit just for an ACK)
[11:45] <Laurenceb_> B-64 hysplit coming up
[11:45] <Laurenceb_> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/186670_trj001.gif
[11:46] <adamgreig> hah, sweet
[11:46] <daveake> Someone should fix the spelling in:
[11:46] <daveake> gps_set_sucess=getUBX_ACK(setNav);
[11:46] <daveake> sometime :)
[11:47] <Laurenceb_> flight path at last update is in the right direction to get here fast
[11:47] <Laurenceb_> wednesday evening
[11:47] <daveake> nice
[11:48] <fsphil> the welcome home station is ready
[11:48] <daveake> haha
[11:48] <daveake> For once you're in the right place :)
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[11:48] <fsphil> still plenty of time for it to change its mind
[11:49] <Laurenceb_> if it takes the other path we will also know about it in a couple of days
[11:49] <Laurenceb_> but that looks unlikely from the direction of flight at the last updates - it was still heading NE
[11:51] <bertrik> daveake: I'm willing to fix that, if you trust me with access to the source code
[11:52] <daveake> not my code
[11:52] <daveake> It's in the wiki somewhere I think
[11:54] <bertrik> I don't think I have write-access there either
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[11:55] <mattbrejza> doesnt wiki source code have intentional errors to keep people on their toes?
[11:55] <mattbrejza> :P
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[11:56] <N2NXZ> Good morning...big storms passed through the are here last eve,winds cranking from the North,looks like balloons were pushed around a bit too
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[12:32] <fsphil> spacenear's default view centers over the US for the first time ever I think :)
[12:34] <daveake> haha
[12:34] <daveake> "centers"? You've gone US-centric too :/
[12:35] <fsphil> Yee haw!
[12:36] Action: daveake passed fsphil iced tea
[12:36] <daveake> passes
[12:37] <mattbrejza> free refills
[12:37] <lz1dev> but in the us they dring garotade instead of tea
[12:37] <lz1dev> :'(
[12:38] <lz1dev> or gatorade
[12:38] <daveake> do the dew
[12:38] <gonzo__> but the rifoills have a hauntingly familiar warmness about them
[12:38] <lz1dev> new keyboard
[12:38] <lz1dev> keys a lot smaller
[12:39] Action: fsphil has flashbacks to the eeepc keyboard
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[12:39] <fsphil> I still have that eeepc. no idea what to do with it
[12:39] <fsphil> it has a lovely but small screen
[12:39] <fsphil> battery is basically useless
[12:39] <lz1dev> its not the size of the screen, but how you use it
[12:40] <fsphil> I suppose I could make it into a fancy alarm clock
[12:40] <gonzo__> and ho far vyou need to hold it away from your face to get focus!
[12:40] <lz1dev> ipads are good for clocks
[12:40] <lz1dev> hang one in the kitchen and on in the bathroom
[12:40] <lz1dev> plus, they can tell you the weather as well
[12:41] <gonzo__> we ave things called mindows!
[12:41] <gonzo__> windoes
[12:41] <fsphil> nearly
[12:41] <gonzo__> (I blame my typing, on .... my typing)
[12:41] <lz1dev> i've heard windows 8 will be just a digital clock
[12:41] <fsphil> the local term for them is "windys"
[12:41] <lz1dev> or 9
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[12:41] <lz1dev> or 11
[12:41] <gonzo__> I'll let you FEC and make up what I meant from the letters i gave you
[12:42] <gonzo__> locally here they are, screwed on pieces of stirong board
[12:42] <gonzo__> sterling
[12:42] <mattbrejza> good thing english is a joint source and channel code
[12:42] <fsphil> mmm
[12:44] <gonzo__> ok, no FEC on my posts. Just lookj at the letters i send, scan around the keys that are adjacent and see what words I could ahev ytped. As sort of alphaberic sudoku
[12:45] <gonzo__> hmmm, and the order cannot be reiled upon
[12:45] <gonzo__> and line noise... I shoudl just give up and start drawing in crayon
[12:45] <fsphil> google does occasionally give me the correct spelling when I type something in offset 1 key to the left or right
[12:46] <fsphil> they must have code that checks for typical keyboard errors
[12:46] <gonzo__> there was an overlay site for that, called something like, fat fingers
[12:47] <gonzo__> must do. Given that I usually get what I wanted, rather than what I typed
[12:57] Nick change: jaymzx -> jaymzx_away
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[13:23] <LeoBodnar> GFS05 Finally! http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/190918_trj001.gif
[13:25] <LeoBodnar> Web version does not have "constant density" option which exactly what ZP balloon follows
[13:25] <LeoBodnar> but standalone GUI version has
[13:25] <LeoBodnar> +is
[13:25] <LeoBodnar> s/ZP/SP/
[13:26] <fsphil> pretty much heading south of here
[13:26] <fsphil> you don't have to chase this balloon LeoBodnar
[13:26] <fsphil> it's chasing you
[13:38] <gonzo__> what's the prediction fpr being in the UK phil?
[13:40] <fsphil> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/190918_trj001.gif
[13:41] <fsphil> more or less all of them recently
[13:41] <fsphil> it's been quite stable
[13:46] <gonzo__> early thurs morning, if i read that correctly?
[13:47] <fsphil> looks like
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> Damn good chance of going over the launch location (for 'over' in terms of within the radio horizon)
[13:48] <Laurenceb_> what is B-63 going to do?
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNJmfuEWR8w (unrelated)
[13:49] <amell> Can B-66 be declared lost yet?
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[14:05] <Laurenceb_> well B-63 is still flying...
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[15:30] <cipherzero> how bad are regular latex balloons. I cant find weather balloons anywhere and shipping to my country will take ages...
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[15:39] <cipherzero> how bad are regular latex balloons? When do they usually burst? I cant find weather balloons anywhere and shipping to my country will take ages...
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[15:49] <Maxell> cipherzero: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:balloon_data ?
[15:50] <cipherzero> arent those all weather balloons?
[15:51] <craag> Normal latex balloons will be a *lot* smaller
[15:51] <craag> And likely not as well manufactured
[15:51] <craag> (assuming you mean local-shop-type latex balloons)
[15:52] <cipherzero> I know they are not well manufactured, thats why im asking
[15:52] <cipherzero> Ive found 1.2 meter latex balloons in balloon shops though
[15:52] <craag> Do the calculations for the lift you need, and therefore the volume of He/H
[15:52] <craag> Are those 1.2 m at burst?
[15:53] <craag> or mostly-inflated
[15:53] <cipherzero> no, right after being filled
[15:53] <LeoBodnar> 90cm qualatex are just fine
[15:53] <LeoBodnar> should be 12km+
[15:53] <LeoBodnar> latex
[15:53] <mattbrejza> no-one really knows how far those balloons will get, why not fly one and find out :)
[15:53] <LeoBodnar> well above 12km defo
[15:54] <cipherzero> because that much helium will cost me $200 here?
[15:54] <craag> LeoBodnar: Assuming your standard of payload weight ;)
[15:54] <LeoBodnar> above that your first transmitter locks up and you need to DF it
[15:54] <mattbrejza> hydrogen?
[15:54] <cipherzero> hydrogen? boom?
[15:55] <craag> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:hydrogen
[15:55] <mattbrejza> it doesnt really go boom as much as ffffffpt
[15:56] <cipherzero> dunno, just seen videos of it going boom, not in real life
[15:56] <cipherzero> if just a little bit of air leaks, isnt that enough?
[15:56] <cipherzero> cant find hydrogen either
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[15:57] <cipherzero> *where im from
[15:57] <mattbrejza> hydrogen only goes boom if you mix it with air
[15:57] <YO9ICT> where are you from?
[15:57] <jiffe98> and ignite it
[15:57] <cipherzero> Armenia, small country
[15:57] <cipherzero> landlocked, everything is expensive, and rare
[15:59] <LeoBodnar> talk to arko cipherzero
[15:59] <cipherzero> from forum or something?
[16:00] <LeoBodnar> he'll be waking up soon
[16:00] <cipherzero> why, hes armenian?
[16:00] <cipherzero> or you mean he'll know what regular balloons are good for?
[16:00] <LeoBodnar> he's arko
[16:01] <cipherzero> so? I dont get what you mean?
[16:01] <cipherzero> arko is a name right?
[16:03] <LeoBodnar> His name is Ara Kourchians
[16:04] <cipherzero> Oh
[16:05] <cipherzero> Probably not living in Armenia, its 8 pm here
[16:05] <LeoBodnar> no but he might be useful
[16:06] <cipherzero> yeah, probably
[16:06] <LeoBodnar> well stay around for a few hours, i am going home atm
[16:06] <cipherzero> okay, so we were talking about hydrogen. where do you guys source it?
[16:07] <cipherzero> chemistry labs?
[16:07] <mattbrejza> do you have an industrial gas supplier?
[16:07] <cipherzero> say what?
[16:08] <mattbrejza> like BOC
[16:08] <cipherzero> We have http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasprom office
[16:08] <cipherzero> that kind of gas supplier?
[16:08] <mattbrejza> if you want to do some welding they come and drop off some nitrogen or acetline
[16:09] <fsphil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia#mediaviewer/File:Yerevan_2012_February.JPG -- nice view
[16:09] <mattbrejza> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_gas
[16:10] <cipherzero> fsphil, hope it doesnt land on that mountain, its 5000+ meters high and just after closed border
[16:10] <fsphil> yea just reading about that
[16:10] <fsphil> bit of a pain
[16:10] <cipherzero> we probably have such suppliers, no idea what to type in armenian in our yellow pages though
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[16:12] <mattbrejza> sit outside a chemistry department of a university and see what delivers there
[16:12] <mattbrejza> who supplies stuff like CO2 to bars?
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[16:13] <Ian_> The breweries . . .
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[16:13] <cipherzero> i guess i can dig in the universities
[16:14] <arko> hi cipherzero
[16:14] <cipherzero> Barev :)
[16:14] <arko> you're in armenia?
[16:14] <arko> barev
[16:14] <arko> :)
[16:14] <cipherzero> yeah
[16:14] <arko> ANOTHER ARMENIAN!
[16:14] <fsphil> lol
[16:14] <arko> theres like what, 10mil of us in the world?
[16:14] <arko> half are in glendale, ca :P
[16:14] <cipherzero> yeah
[16:15] <cipherzero> I know few people from Glendale too
[16:15] <arko> now you know another
[16:15] <cipherzero> yeah
[16:15] <arko> im right on the border of glendale/pasadena
[16:15] <arko> are you doing habs in armenia?
[16:15] <cipherzero> Trying
[16:16] <arko> which university?
[16:16] <cipherzero> no university, hobby
[16:16] <SpeedEvil> cipherzero: Always nice to see another country pop up.
[16:16] <arko> oh cool
[16:17] <cipherzero> Cant find any weather balloons here...
[16:17] <cipherzero> Just made the styrofoam box, parachute, got a camera and GPS, threw from a building, seems OK
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[16:18] <cipherzero> the calculator shows it will land in our country if I'll launch it from Aparan (middle)
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> Armenia is not in the EU, is it
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> Do you have nasty import duties?
[16:18] <cipherzero> yup
[16:18] <cipherzero> problem is shipping, can take a month longer than expected
[16:18] <SpeedEvil> :/
[16:18] <cipherzero> or more
[16:19] <cipherzero> otherwise id just order a weather balloon from USA
[16:20] <cipherzero> thats why im asking how high latex balloons can go...
[16:20] <simium> that video of the hydrogen balloon exploding is quite awesome
[16:21] <cipherzero> and worrying
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[16:21] <arko> cipherzero: http://www.randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
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[16:21] <arko> have you been to this website?
[16:22] <cipherzero> probably have
[16:23] <arko> they've been more reliable than Kaymont for me
[16:23] <arko> Kaymont is probably the largest balloon supplier in the US
[16:23] <cipherzero> yeah, but even when I order from UK sometimes they ship it in like 2 months, its crazy
[16:23] <arko> :/
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[16:24] <arko> wow didnt realize how painful it is to import into armenia
[16:24] <cipherzero> well yeah, thats why im guessing most armenians arent in armenia
[16:24] <arko> lol
[16:24] <simium> cipherzero someone could ship anything to you by flying a balloon over your area :p
[16:24] <arko> hahaha
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[16:25] <arko> we gotta get cipherzero to setup a dl-fldigi station
[16:25] <cipherzero> And then we are Turkey would blow the shit out of it as it would pass the border....
[16:25] <cipherzero> *or
[16:25] <simium> LOL
[16:25] <LeoBodnar> couriers like UPS must have service guarantees like 3-4 days, etc
[16:26] <SpeedEvil> Doesn't work that way
[16:26] <SpeedEvil> *(except for customs delays)
[16:26] <cipherzero> I know, I got my money back from the guarantee last time from DHL, but who cares? My item didnt get to me on time any way
[16:26] <arko> im willing to bet the post office & customs for armenia is still in the same old people from back when the USSR was around
[16:26] <DL1SGP> Good day HAB-World :)
[16:26] <SpeedEvil> DL1SGP: HELLO!
[16:27] <cipherzero> arko, you got it
[16:27] <arko> :)
[16:27] <LeoBodnar> Turkey has great APRS infrastructure and few stations in Russia north from you
[16:27] <arko> i want to visit armenia some day
[16:27] <LeoBodnar> take igate with you arko when you go
[16:27] <arko> :)
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[16:28] <LeoBodnar> few months ago there were balloons flying over you cipherzero almost every day
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[16:29] <arko> so the funny thing is, i was invited to teach people in armenia about habs a while back
[16:29] <arko> i cant remember the uni's name now :/
[16:30] <DL1SGP> no worries, NSA knows it :)
[16:31] <arko> Tumo
[16:31] <arko> thats the one
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[16:31] <RocketGuy> Hello
[16:31] <arko> cipherzero: are you familiar with Tumo?
[16:33] <simium> arko, are you the designer of the CUBEX?
[16:33] <arko> yarp
[16:33] <cipherzero> Yeah, TUMO
[16:33] <cipherzero> center of creative technologies, or somethin
[16:34] <arko> cipherzero: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide try to get a usb rtl or a ham radio and setup a dl-fldigi HAB station
[16:34] <arko> cipherzero: nice! yeah, a while back an admin from TUMO contacted me asking me to fly out to armenia in the summer, and to teach a course on habs for 2 weeks
[16:34] <cipherzero> Okay, but I need a balloon to get it in the air at all
[16:35] <arko> it got a bit complicated with work and itar and i wasnt sure on how well that would go over so i declined
[16:35] <cipherzero> Well TUMO I think is for people below 18. Im 22, so
[16:35] <simium> arko: nice! I happen to have your code in front of me right now
[16:35] <F1VJQ> arko so fly out with a suitcase full of ballons for cipherzero
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[16:35] <arko> cipherzero: yeah, you're going to have to order and wait unfortunately :/
[16:35] <arko> F1VJQ: haha
[16:35] <simium> I'm basing my ssdv balloon on your work
[16:35] <simium> so thank you!
[16:36] <arko> simium: nice, most of that code is a collaboration between fsphil, Upu, daveake, and a lot of folks in this channel
[16:36] <arko> cool man, have fun, document and share
[16:36] <cipherzero> So we havent got a data on how high latex balooons go then?
[16:36] <arko> :)
[16:36] <arko> yes
[16:36] <cipherzero> damn
[16:36] <arko> http://habitat.habhub.org/calc
[16:36] <arko> i mean yes we do have data
[16:36] <arko> lots
[16:36] <F1VJQ> B-64 gone for a stroll in the Arctic I see
[16:36] <arko> woops not that
[16:36] <arko> http://habhub.org/calc/
[16:36] <arko> here ^ that links works
[16:37] <cipherzero> are you talking to me aeko?
[16:37] <cipherzero> *arko
[16:37] <arko> yes cipherzero
[16:37] <arko> that link should help you calculate/estimate the burst altitude
[16:37] <arko> based on payload mass and balloon type
[16:38] <cipherzero> All I see are 3 brands of weather balloons, am I missing something?
[16:38] <arko> nah thats about right
[16:38] <arko> then the mass of the balloons
[16:38] <arko> all those balloons are stocked here http://www.randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[16:39] <cipherzero> OK, but Im asking about regular balloons, not weather balloons
[16:39] <craag> you can enable the custom data at the bottom to use different balloons
[16:39] <craag> but you'll have to work out the specs
[16:39] <arko> like, party balloons?
[16:39] <arko> mylar? latex?
[16:39] <cipherzero> I dont know, they call it "olympic" latex ballons here
[16:40] <cipherzero> 1 - 2 meters in diameter
[16:40] <mattbrejza> probably best to buy some, and see at what diameter they burst
[16:40] <arko> thats a good point
[16:40] <mattbrejza> last time we tried to blow up some large party balloons half popped on their own accord
[16:40] <mattbrejza> those were probably shitty ones
[16:40] <cipherzero> I dont know what causes a balloon to burst at what altitude, maybe thats why im not guessing this
[16:41] <mattbrejza> blow it up with air and measure with tape
[16:41] <cipherzero> *getting
[16:41] <mattbrejza> i think all the calculator needs is burst diameter and balloon mass
[16:41] <arko> you wont be able to guess just from inspection, you will actually have to do what mattbrejza is saying
[16:41] <mattbrejza> but at least you can test on the ground
[16:42] <cipherzero> Ok, let me try to understand, you mean if a balloon doesnt burst at X diameter on the ground, then its good enough to reach 30,000 meters?
[16:42] <cipherzero> Because they cost like $8, I can do some tests
[16:43] <arko> science!
[16:44] <craag> Just need to know the weight of the balloon and the maximum diameter before burst, then you can put the values in and find out how high it'll go
[16:44] <craag> I'd be interested to see what you find out :)
[16:44] <cipherzero> thats it?
[16:44] <Ian_> Alas, a community of 8 = $1 apiece, so you need to recruit HAB followers with deep pockets to defray your own personal cost base.
[16:44] <Ian_> Craag saving $8 :)
[16:45] <mattbrejza> its the volume of the balloon and the air pressure that defines how much lift it has
[16:45] <mattbrejza> so all you need is the max volume of the balloon
[16:45] <mattbrejza> or its diameter
[16:46] <cipherzero> what ive been told is weather balloons are higher quality and normal balloons dont have the same thickness all the way round so they can burst from those thin walls sooner than weather balloons
[16:46] <mattbrejza> yea the party balloons might have a large varience in their burst diameter
[16:46] <RocketGuy> Has anyone here heard of the n-prize, per chance?
[16:46] <craag> for $8 each, might as well get a few
[16:46] <craag> test each one
[16:47] <craag> find out the rough variance
[16:47] <cipherzero> anyone heard of these "olympic" balloons I keep hearing about here?
[16:47] <mattbrejza> is probably just a brand name
[16:48] <cipherzero> So I need the calculator here? http://www.randomengineering.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[16:49] <arko> yes, http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:balloon_data
[16:49] <arko> http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/guides:burst3.xls
[16:49] <arko> this calculator in particular
[16:50] <cipherzero> ok. because the previous calculator wants me to choose a balloon from a list
[16:50] <arko> right
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[16:51] <arko> this excel will let your input balloon mass and max/burst diameter
[16:52] <cipherzero> Hm, OK
[16:52] <cipherzero> Im having a little trouble with understanding everything in english, so sorry
[16:52] <cipherzero> So in summary
[16:52] <cipherzero> I should weigh the balloon
[16:52] <cipherzero> then measure its diameter right before bursting
[16:53] <cipherzero> and Ill find out at around what altitude it will burst?
[16:53] <arko> angleren-ed shaut lav a
[16:53] <mattbrejza> yep
[16:53] <arko> you got it
[16:53] <cipherzero> mersi arko, bayc barer ka googlov em nayum
[16:53] <mattbrejza> to work out how high itll go you also need the payload mass and how much helium you put in it
[16:53] <cipherzero> and if its 'weather balloon", or latex doesnt matter for this calculation?
[16:54] <mattbrejza> the more helium the faster itll go up (less distance travelled) but lower altutude
[16:55] <cipherzero> sorry what?
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[16:56] <mattbrejza> the amount of helium you put in the balloon will affect the ascent rate and burst altitude
[16:56] <mattbrejza> something to consider when calculating how high itll go
[16:57] <cipherzero> Ascent rate sure, but why does it affect burst altitude? Because there's less space to expand?
[16:58] <cipherzero> if theres more helium in it?
[16:58] <craag> exactly
[16:58] <cipherzero> ok, sure
[16:59] <cipherzero> So I should measure the diameter while filling it too I guess
[17:01] <mattbrejza> generally you measure the lift to calculate how much He is in the balloon
[17:01] <cipherzero> So from what we talked, I understood that compared to latex balloons weather balloons are more elastic and burst at stronger pressures? thats the main difference for us?
[17:02] <mattbrejza> weather balloons have tinner latex too, so they weigh less for their volume
[17:03] <cipherzero> OK, thanks guys, I'll try to analyze all this info and see if I got it all right/
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[17:17] <RocketGuy> I'm looking for ham radio operators interested in tracking a balloon dropped rocket (a "rockoon")
[17:17] <adamgreig> ooh, another rockoon. what're the specs?
[17:17] <RocketGuy> Two stages, both ammonium nitrate/magnesium composite propellant
[17:18] <adamgreig> impulse class? rocket length?
[17:18] <adamgreig> launch altitude? wet mass?
[17:18] <RocketGuy> first is k, second is j
[17:18] <RocketGuy> total mass of first ~1 kg, second is ~0.5 kg
[17:19] <adamgreig> total of the rocket and motor and everything, or just motor?
[17:19] <adamgreig> all sounds cool
[17:19] <adamgreig> commercial motors or homebrew?
[17:19] <RocketGuy> drop/launch altitude 85 k feet
[17:19] <adamgreig> and where are you launching from?
[17:19] <RocketGuy> homebrew
[17:19] <adamgreig> 85000ft
[17:19] <adamgreig> aw, we used to have a bot that translated to metric
[17:19] <adamgreig> 26km anyway, sounds good
[17:19] <RocketGuy> ~27 km
[17:20] <adamgreig> what altitude do you hope to reach?
[17:20] <RocketGuy> 400 km
[17:20] <adamgreig> phoar
[17:20] <adamgreig> what're you making the rocket out of?
[17:20] <adamgreig> a very small amount of CF I guess?
[17:21] <adamgreig> have you given much thought to ignition in the cold and low pressure?
[17:21] <RocketGuy> first stage is pvc pipe, second is pop can with rubber insulation and carbon fiber wrap for strength
[17:21] <adamgreig> interesting
[17:21] <adamgreig> what top speed?
[17:21] <RocketGuy> yes, thermite dipped resistance ignitor, small plug to help with initial pressure build up, and heater to keep the thing warm on ballon ascent
[17:21] <RocketGuy> both stages are spin stabilized btw
[17:22] <adamgreig> cool, what spin rate?
[17:22] <adamgreig> ignition sounds good
[17:22] <RocketGuy> top speed.... kid you not, but I'm aiming for ~29 000 km/h
[17:22] <RocketGuy> orbital velocity, more or less
[17:23] <adamgreig> hence your question about the n prize earlier I guess
[17:23] <RocketGuy> yup!
[17:23] Action: amell laughs at the troll
[17:23] <adamgreig> you should chat to Laurenceb_, he thinks it might be possible too
[17:23] <RocketGuy> I'm not so sure it's possible
[17:24] <adamgreig> nor am I
[17:24] <adamgreig> with a J and a K
[17:24] <adamgreig> on 1.5kg of rocket made of PVC pipe
[17:24] <RocketGuy> But the chances aren't exactly zero
[17:24] <amell> exactly
[17:24] <adamgreig> there's very little drag at 26km
[17:24] <adamgreig> but there's still some drag
[17:24] <RocketGuy> but the numbers work out
[17:24] <amell> i dont believe that
[17:24] <adamgreig> how are you doing attitude control for the roll?
[17:24] <adamgreig> numbers are quite hard to work out when you're far into mach
[17:24] <amell> orbital velocity from a J/K? youre taking the mick
[17:25] <RocketGuy> a J/K dropped from 27 km
[17:25] <RocketGuy> ok, so once the rocket is dropped from balloon, the thing is spun and flies vertically, being spin stabilized
[17:26] <adamgreig> let's be generous and say you have 4000Ns of impulse between the two motors and on average about 1kg to accelerate up, that would kind of suggest a top speed of 4000m/s
[17:26] <adamgreig> which is a sight short of the 8000m/s you want for orbital
[17:26] <RocketGuy> empty mass of final stage is 12 grams, 600 grams with propellant, specific impulse of around 270 s
[17:27] <adamgreig> hmm
[17:28] <adamgreig> well
[17:28] <RocketGuy> yes. the trick is to use carbon fiber for structural support. gives the rocket the hoop strength, while operating a relatively low pressure anyways.
[17:28] <adamgreig> where are you launching from?
[17:28] <RocketGuy> canada
[17:28] <adamgreig> and your final stage is 12g including structures, motor casing, battery, solar, radio, electronics, gps?
[17:30] <adamgreig> 12g is a good (minimal) mass for a HAB payload with the electronics but minus any structural or support or attitude control bits
[17:30] <RocketGuy> yes, minus solar and gps. gps is useless at that velocity, maybe there's a unit or two that would function at the altitudes if it were stationary. at any rate, gps is easy to fake. no need for solar, only needs power for the beacon for less than 24 hours
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[17:30] <adamgreig> not sure GPS is useless at that velocity ;) but okay, no need for it
[17:30] <RocketGuy> ok, i heard that gps has some sort of max velocity it functions at so it's not used in icbm, but i may be mistaken
[17:31] <adamgreig> off-the-shelf receivers often do
[17:31] <RocketGuy> at any rate, the sum total of electronics on the final stage is a simple vhf radio beacon and a button cell
[17:31] <adamgreig> fair enough
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[17:31] <adamgreig> once you're ready to launch, best bet to find people around here to help you track it is to email the UKHAS list
[17:31] <RocketGuy> second stage will carry any timing/ignition.attitude electronics
[17:32] <RocketGuy> thanks, very useful
[17:32] <adamgreig> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ukhas
[17:32] <SpeedEvil> RocketGuy: sounds interesting
[17:32] <adamgreig> I'd wait until you have a rough date and frequency for people to listen out on
[17:32] <adamgreig> but plenty of people on that list with VHF receivers
[17:33] <RocketGuy> It seems that VHF would have the largest amount of people with capable receivers
[17:33] <adamgreig> indeed
[17:34] <RocketGuy> That was useful, thx
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[17:43] <craag> 4 ft
[17:43] <SIbot> In real units: 4 ft = 1.22 m
[17:43] <DL1SGP> welcome back SIbot :)
[17:46] <adamgreig> hurray
[17:50] <lz1dev> 1 furlong
[17:50] <lz1dev> no love for the FFF system
[17:51] <craag> I reverted the buggy float parsing, so it's back to how it was.
[17:51] <lz1dev> 0.000000000000000000000000000000001 ft in m
[17:51] <SIbot> In real units: 000000000000 ft = 0.00 m
[17:51] <lz1dev> gj
[17:52] <craag> (ie it now has no float parsing)
[17:55] <lz1dev> just use this http://stackoverflow.com/a/12643059/2931715
[17:55] <lz1dev> then you can make an array of all the suffixes, like feet, furlongs etc
[17:55] <lz1dev> expand it into the regex (a|b|c)
[17:56] <lz1dev> run that on every line, if you get a hit, match the suffix to the appropriet multiper, and return real units
[17:57] <lz1dev> that should take care of most of the silly units
[18:00] <fsphil> that's better by 1 mile
[18:00] <fsphil> hah
[18:02] <lz1dev> b63 hysplit doesn't look promising
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[18:08] <DL1SGP> Guten Abend Kevin
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[18:10] <Lunar_Lander> hallo
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[18:22] <jcoxon> hey all - anyone going to EMF?
[18:22] <arko> i wish :/
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[18:23] <adamgreig> jcoxon: yep
[18:23] <adamgreig> along with jonsowman mattbrejza my housemate and others
[18:23] <jcoxon> okay cool
[18:23] <jcoxon> people i know
[18:23] <adamgreig> we're even nominally having a hab village
[18:23] <jcoxon> i have got permission
[18:24] <jcoxon> awesome
[18:24] <adamgreig> I was gonna email the ukhas list to advertise it actually
[18:24] <jcoxon> shall we have a ukhasnet as well
[18:24] <adamgreig> ooh, that'd be cool
[18:24] <jcoxon> i'll bring some nodes
[18:24] <adamgreig> I was nominally going to be giving a hab talk and launch, same as last year, with some on 'recent happenings'
[18:24] <adamgreig> was gonna be soliciting contributions to that too :P
[18:24] <jcoxon> okay
[18:24] <adamgreig> sounds like maybe you were going to do something similar? :P
[18:25] <jcoxon> i've only just got my ticket
[18:25] <adamgreig> ah ok cool
[18:25] <jcoxon> rota is a bit crazy
[18:25] <adamgreig> ah
[18:26] <jcoxon> but have a weekend and now GF permission
[18:26] <adamgreig> sweet
[18:26] <jcoxon> tried to get her to come along but its a lot of geek
[18:26] <adamgreig> my housemate and I are doing a big installation too, http://www.thegrid.fish/pages/about.html
[18:26] <jcoxon> cool
[18:27] <adamgreig> haven't heard back on cfp about talks yet though
[18:27] <adamgreig> but I'll try and get that email out to the list soon
[18:30] <adamgreig> gotta run, but yay, glad you're coming :)
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[19:16] <amell> when did .fish become a TLD? ffs.
[19:17] <mfa298> it all got opened up about a year ago so people can request various tld's
[19:17] <mfa298> although I think getting the actual tld is a bit more invovled than a normal domain
[19:19] <nick_> mfa298: $10k or so more involved
[19:20] <mfa298> and probably a load of technical stuff which cost the same again
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> https://twitter.com/universetoday/status/493835340420231168/photo/1
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> Balloon Garden: Japanese Artist Flies Bonsai Tree And Plants High Above Earth #flying http://buff.ly/1qH7oR8
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> Freeze-dried dead bonsai
[19:25] <lz1dev> why not make a plexiglass box
[19:25] <SpeedEvil> I'm not sure what the message is there
[19:25] <lz1dev> and remove these silly black borders
[19:26] <lz1dev> so much lost potential :(
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[19:27] <RocketGuy> Hi, could anyone tell me if the arhab mission announcement listing (http://www.arhab.org/hab_launch_list.php) would be an appropriate place to post about an upcoming rockoon launch attempt (beacon on the rocket)?
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[19:31] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping!
[19:32] <mfa298> cm13g09: pong
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[19:42] <amell> who is this chris hillcox bloke?
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[19:44] <mfa298> he runs the balloon news blog
[19:45] <amell> seems very keen on spot trackers :(
[19:45] <mfa298> and cattraq gsm things
[19:45] <amell> wonder what his recovery rate is.
[19:46] <Laurenceb__> B-63 prediction
[19:46] <Laurenceb__> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/111438_trj001.gif
[19:47] <amell> uh oh
[19:47] <fsphil> aww
[19:47] <Laurenceb__> the azores
[19:47] <mfa298> am I the only one that keeps wanting to put an A into his callsign (M6LZY)
[19:48] <SpeedEvil> Well, it still might.
[19:48] <SpeedEvil> Plus, it looks like it's only delayed a couple of days before spain
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[19:49] <iodwiden> where to buy weather balloons?
[19:51] <myself> <theinternet.gif>
[19:51] <craag> http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[19:52] <iodwiden> out of stock...
[19:52] <craag> which country are you in?
[19:54] <iodwiden> Armenia
[19:54] <fsphil> all the rage atm
[19:55] <malgar> when 434 MHz will be activated on the two mighty balloons? :)
[19:56] <iodwiden> so where to buy weather balloons online? 300 g is out of stock?
[19:58] <craag> There are other websites such as kaymont balloons, but I have no experience of them.
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[20:02] <amell> just get a bigger balloon
[20:03] <craag> ^^ Might be easier and even cheaper, steve's prices are quite reasonable I believe
[20:03] <amell> iodwiden: what size do you want? theres only 300g hwoyee out of stock
[20:03] <amell> 350g is in stock?
[20:05] <amell> btw, steve appears to have just updated the website today.
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[20:19] <cipherzero> I just had this idea. if stratosphere has a little bit of air, wont releasing a balloon filled with hydrogen instead of helium cause some burning when the balloon bursts and damage the parachute, etc? To those who have used hydrogen.
[20:20] <mfa298> it will only burn if there's a source of ignition and enough oxegyn to burn
[20:21] <cipherzero> yeah but there is a little bit of oxygen in the stratosphere right?
[20:21] <zyp> there's still nothing to ignite it
[20:21] <daveake> approx 1% atmosphere
[20:21] <mfa298> but no source of ignition unless you put a pyro right by the balloon
[20:22] <cipherzero> you need that? Doesnt hydrogen and oxygen reaction just occur?
[20:22] <myself> use a sparkler as your cutdown device and record video from the payload :) let us know how that goes!
[20:22] <zyp> cipherzero, no
[20:22] <daveake> This is what happens http://www.daveakerman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Burst-1-1024x571.jpg
[20:22] <mfa298> If it did burn I suspect it would be pretty slow. It's also going to be above your parachute and I assume any heating would make it rise further (if anything)
[20:22] <myself> oh fuck
[20:22] <myself> I just realized my chair is cloth
[20:22] <mfa298> nice picture
[20:22] <cipherzero> in that pic hydrogen was used?
[20:22] <myself> isn't it gonna burst into flame as soon as I stand up?
[20:23] <daveake> So a) not enough O2,, b) no source of ignition, c) too far from the parachute to make a difference
[20:23] <myself> cipherzero, save me, oxygen might react with my chair and scorch my butt!
[20:23] <daveake> and yes H2 in that pic
[20:23] <cipherzero> is your chair made of hydrogen?
[20:23] <myself> partially!
[20:24] <daveake> btw the cloud visible is the talc in the balloon
[20:24] <cipherzero> alrighty then
[20:24] <DL1SGP> lovely picture dave
[20:24] <myself> Anyway, here's the concept you missed in chem 101: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activation_energy
[20:24] <cipherzero> didnt go to chem 101
[20:25] <mfa298> Seeing a detonation of a H2 balloon in the upper atmosphere could be interesting to see how quickly (or not) it burns (and how easy it is to make it combust).
[20:25] <daveake> Love this quote from the Met Office regarding claims against them for damage caused by their balloon flights ...
[20:25] <daveake> " and one case of ingestion by farm livestock
[20:25] <daveake> (2012)"
[20:25] <mfa298> I susect even getting combustion with the limited O2 could be interesting.
[20:26] <cipherzero> so why are people im asking to do this afraid to fill a balloon with hydrogen? Static from the latex might do the trick or something?
[20:26] <daveake> Hindenberg
[20:26] <myself> because they didn't go to chem 101 either
[20:27] <mfa298> you need to be a bit more careful when filling with H2 rather than He. But I think the extra risks are with filling (or if it came down still inflated) rather than what happens when it's up in the air.
[20:28] <cipherzero> OK. So what are the risks when filling it? Static electricity? or some dumb idiot lighting a cigarette while doing it?
[20:28] <mfa298> probably mostly some dumb idiot smoking nearby.
[20:29] <daveake> There's no risk of the latter because you make it very clear to everyone that there's absolutely no smoking anywhere near the envelope or cylinder
[20:29] <mfa298> but then if you do that (or let someone do that) you probably qualify for a Darwin award
[20:29] <daveake> yup
[20:30] <myself> lightning is just a special case of static electricity, so I think you've got 'em covered
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[20:30] <myself> (also, launching during a lightning storm would be a gold-plated Darwin)
[20:30] <DL1SGP> yeah, security needs to be established for the filling zone and launch path. keeping the crowd away from the balloon and making clear where NOT to stand when it is going to be released.
[20:31] <myself> BONK
[20:32] <mfa298> also note that for a single flight He might be cheaper overall. Whilst H2 gas is cheaper than He you may need to get a speacilst regulator for H2 which isn't cheap
[20:32] <daveake> yup
[20:33] <daveake> The break-even point is about 4-5 flights
[20:33] <mfa298> isn't there a page on the wiki that covers most of this ?
[20:33] <daveake> (for the reg I got anyway)
[20:33] <mfa298> looks like there is
[20:33] <mattbrejza> how much is the hydrogen reg? £150?
[20:34] <DL1SGP> yea also if you have a crowd and just do one launch or 2 you can use some of the He to fill kids balloons and make sure young folks remains interested in the hobby :D
[20:34] <mattbrejza> and then hose?
[20:34] <daveake> Something like £150 yes. Then about £8 for a hosetail connector then almost nothing for some hose
[20:35] <daveake> Also a few £ for a cylinder spanner and cylinder valve key
[20:35] <mattbrejza> the ones for He are £45+VAT i think
[20:35] <DL1SGP> I was reading "horsetail" laughs
[20:35] <mattbrejza> or at least the cheap inert gas ones
[20:35] <daveake> spanners/keys are standard welding bits
[20:35] <mattbrejza> hydrogen doesnt have a tap like He then?
[20:36] <DL1SGP> daveake: any spain based launches with interesting hiking recovery planned for this summer?
[20:36] <daveake> DL1SGP nope
[20:36] <DL1SGP> thanks for info
[20:37] <daveake> mattbrejza The reg screws into the top of the cylinder, then the hose screws into the side of the reg. You then have control via the regulator and the cylinder valve
[20:37] <daveake> I find it easiest to set a medium pressure on the reg then control via the tank valve
[20:37] <daveake> The reg has many many turns
[20:38] <mattbrejza> ok
[20:41] <myself> DL1SGP: Why not use H2 to fill kids' balloons, anyway? :)
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[20:43] <DL1SGP> myself: because I need them to pay my pension
[20:43] <mfa298> not sure H2 for kids balloons would be a wise choice. There's a good change they'll end up inside an inclosed space (a house). Or someone will decide to have fun doing squeaky voices by breathing it in (which won't work if it's H2)
[20:44] <myself> but the ones that survive will have higher earning potential!
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[20:44] <myself> why wouldn't squeaky voices work?
[20:45] <mfa298> I'm pretty sure H2 won't have the same effect on the vocal cords as He, And I'm not sure it would be that safe to breath in (although He probably isn't that safe either)
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[20:45] <Balloonist> Plus even if there is an ignition sourse, there really isn't any "EXPLOSION" so to speak. Yes it burns, but it does not Explode.
[20:46] <myself> it should be pretty much as safe as helium, as long as you don't spark it..
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[20:47] <Balloonist> Yes the voice is even higher in tone, and it is safe as safe as HE is to breathe in. The same risks are involved.
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[20:47] <myself> I'd try it.
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[20:47] <mfa298> the level of explosion will be determined by the amount of O2 mixed in. If you had O2 mixed in the balloon it would explode but then it won't have the desired lifting power. But if it's pure H2 in the halloon it should be more of a fireball as the H2 will only burn where it can get O2.
[20:48] <malgar> your balloons have never been in stratosphere! they are fakes! I don't see the shadow of the flag
[20:49] <mfa298> but then if you had a good mix of O2 and H2 I believe the more dangerous part of the explosion is the sound wave, the actual reaction is very fast and generates water.
[20:51] <Balloonist> but again it really will not explode. we have done it a hundred times, you have a orange fireball, Thats all, No BOOM, think just like a firecracker, open one up and spread the power in a pile and light it it burns, burns fast yes but does not explode. but encase it in the restrictive paper tube and thats why you get the exoplosion, it can buikld up pressure till it then ruptures, just say like a pipe bomb same thing.
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> It can explode only if you get 4% air in them.
[20:59] <SpeedEvil> This is a _lot_ of air, and you basically really have to try
[20:59] <myself> yeah, but in lungs, there'll already be a lot of air
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> 4% air is about a third of the diameter of teh balloon to start
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> oops - I thought it was about balloons
[21:00] <SpeedEvil> nvm
[21:01] <Balloonist> Mee too, :-)
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[21:02] <Balloonist> I was always amazed too at how small of a volume your average set of lungs do have.. Take the deepest breath and blow it into a balloon. It doesn't get very large with just one lung full.
[21:02] <mfa298> well it could be in a balloon but it won't have particularly good lifting power (as I mentioned before)
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[21:04] <mfa298> I was thinking of the sort of mix where you had the right quantities of O2 and H2 to balance each other out. For a normal weather balloon it shouldn't be an exlosion.
[21:08] <Balloonist> even with good optimum O2 & H2 mixes for best burning, there still is no explosion, just a orange fireball.
[21:08] <myself> hydrogen is more dangerous than most other flammable gases because its flammability range, the difference between LEL and UEL, is so incredibly broad. Anything between 4% and 79% will ignite.
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[21:09] <myself> Balloonist: I disagree, have done it myself. A pure-hydrogen balloon will burn as it mixes, but a pre-mixed balloon most definitely explodes. If you have another word for a concussive blast that rattles windows across the neighborhood, then maybe it does that instead, but around here we call that an explosion.
[21:09] <Balloonist> correct
[21:09] <Balloonist> but ignite is not explose.
[21:09] <Balloonist> explode
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[21:10] <Balloonist> size of balloon?
[21:11] <myself> standard party balloon, less than a cubic foot
[21:12] <Balloonist> thats why, they have a decent level of pressure inside, a weather balloon has near zero pressure in it.
[21:13] <mfa298> I saw it demonstrated with a not quite optimum mix in a similar way and I'd call it more of an exlosion. Whilst there is some burning it's near instantaneous and the real damage from is it percussive rather than burning.
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[21:13] <Balloonist> we have flown while waiting for chase & recovery tteams to come back large trash bags filled with H2 and a long diesel fule soaked "Fuse" we fill the bag light the fuse and let it go, a orange fireball but thats it. a party balloon even with pure H2 make a loud bang, where the trash bag no sound at all.
[21:13] <mfa298> well this did start from talking about filling kids balloons with H2 to keep them entertained...
[21:14] <Balloonist> http://youtu.be/CTvYsZO1X_c
[21:15] <Balloonist> you tube video of a large balloon filled with H2 being ignighted, there is more noise and flames from the balloon material than the H2 "Exploding"
[21:16] <myself> okay so I wasn't the only one who thought we were still talking about party balloons
[21:16] Action: cm13g09 sighs - the things that come up when there's no Bodnar Balloon around
[21:16] <myself> Launch another distraction! hehe
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[21:17] <craag> lol
[21:18] <cm13g09> the Bs have gone out of range of APRS, haven't they?
[21:20] <jcoxon> yup
[21:20] <craag> the wait begins..
[21:21] <jcoxon> yes, may reappear anywhere or not
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[21:23] <mfa298> myself: I was thinking more of party balloons
[21:23] <mfa298> more like the 2nd demo in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlmtcsSJr7Q (first set look to be H2 only, 2nd demo looks to be H2+O2)
[21:24] <Balloonist> james? Can the tracking page be made to work with a standard morse olny signal?
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[21:25] <jcoxon> Balloonist, in theory yes, by using dl-fldigi to decode the CW
[21:25] <jcoxon> but its not ideal
[21:25] <Balloonist> yeah I figured that got a small one with just CW output, on 10 meters,
[21:26] <malgar> is B-66 lost in your opinion?
[21:26] <jcoxon> my experience with CW is that ear decode is better then machine decoded
[21:27] <Balloonist> same here, old EME'er here can copy pretty far down into the mud, but the auto mapping is awesome ya know?
[21:28] <jcoxon> so in the past we've done a sort of crowd source approach
[21:28] <jcoxon> have people submit strings by hand
[21:28] <jcoxon> and then get that uploading
[21:28] <jcoxon> not too difficult
[21:28] <mattbrejza> i would suggest that if it does morse it also does something else alternately
[21:29] <Balloonist> never did the "By Hand" mode.
[21:30] <gonzo_nb> probably because morse is a very poor mode for machine rx, rather than the ear/brain being better
[21:31] <gonzo_nb> we sis some eme experiments with a three state fsk morce mode
[21:31] <jcoxon> Balloonist, i like morse - we can make something work
[21:32] <Balloonist> the payload is ready, the balloon system isn't yet, waiting for another component.
[21:33] <gonzo_nb> the fsk version was decodable visually, rather than by ear
[21:33] <jcoxon> Balloonist, we did it with hellschreiber as well
[21:33] <jcoxon> that was fun
[21:33] <jcoxon> a little tedious
[21:34] <cm13g09> jcoxon: Isn't that the one where it writes things in the waterfall!
[21:34] <cm13g09> s/!/?/
[21:34] <jcoxon> not the waterfall
[21:34] <jcoxon> but it does write it
[21:34] <cm13g09> ah right
[21:34] <gonzo_nb> it't scanned like fax, in time rather than freq
[21:35] <jcoxon> if you can do morse you can do hellschreiber
[21:35] <jcoxon> OOK at its most basic
[21:35] <Balloonist> yup stictly on / off keying.
[21:36] <Balloonist> it can actually go pretty deep into the noise and still give good copy too!
[21:36] <jcoxon> for 10m i'd say that a CW payload is a good approach
[21:36] <Balloonist> But it surely is not capable to auto plot on a map like other modes can.
[21:36] <Balloonist> Hell that is.
[21:37] <jcoxon> indeed
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[22:45] <Laurenceb__> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/117214_trj001.gif
[22:45] <Laurenceb__> prediction sped up
[22:46] <Laurenceb__> wednesday evening
[22:48] <lz1dev> Laurenceb__: mobile tracker runs hysplit when new GFS is available
[22:49] <lz1dev> for all balloons
[22:50] <Laurenceb__> oh lol
[22:51] <mattbrejza> although lb's gifs load somewhat quicker
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[22:53] Nick change: michael__ -> Guest64240
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[22:56] <nigelvh> arko: What's wrong with you?
[22:56] <nigelvh> Gordon using Comic Sans was bad enough, but you had to make it large?!
[22:57] <craag> just came here to say that :P
[22:57] <nigelvh> Haha
[22:58] Action: fsphil only reads emails in plain text. /me feels smug ;)
[22:58] <nigelvh> Haha
[22:58] <arko> :)
[22:58] <lz1dev> fsphil: but with comic sans for font?
[22:58] <nigelvh> Oooooooh
[22:58] <fsphil> how did you know??
[22:59] <arko> nigelvh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
[22:59] <arko> :P
[22:59] <nigelvh> There is some trolling that goes too far.
[22:59] <nigelvh> Large font comic sans is it.
[22:59] <arko> wait till you guys see the tshirt i have for ukhas conf
[22:59] <arko> hahahaha
[23:00] <arko> i felt terrible sending that email tbh
[23:00] <nigelvh> LAWL
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[23:01] <craag> It really needed a sad emoticon at the end just to finish it off
[23:01] <Laurenceb__> wtf
[23:01] <arko> haha
[23:01] <Laurenceb__> how did firefox geolocate get so accurate
[23:01] <Laurenceb__> scary
[23:01] <fsphil> they hired Liam Neeson
[23:02] <Laurenceb__> lol
[23:02] <arko> hahaha
[23:02] <Laurenceb__> do they use the google wifi mac database?
[23:02] <arko> import LiamNeesonLib
[23:02] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[23:03] <Laurenceb__> it seems to be rounded to postcodes
[23:03] <Laurenceb__> ip addresses and postcodes entered into browsers?
[23:03] <lz1dev> its probably geoip
[23:03] <lz1dev> no way they can see your ip
[23:03] <lz1dev> i mean your mac
[23:03] <Laurenceb__> google geoip is nothing like this accurate
[23:03] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[23:04] <lz1dev> depends on the ip
[23:04] <lz1dev> my ISP was giving me a static one
[23:04] <lz1dev> and geoip puts it 10m away from the actual location
[23:04] <lz1dev> now with random ips
[23:04] <Laurenceb__> hmm
[23:04] <fsphil> always interesting to see what geoip says my linode IP address is
[23:04] <lz1dev> sometimes I am in Bolton
[23:04] <fsphil> it seems to change at random
[23:04] <Laurenceb__> google is always out by miles
[23:04] <Laurenceb__> for geoip
[23:04] <Laurenceb__> wtf is going on
[23:04] <lz1dev> depends on the ip
[23:05] <fsphil> any vans outside with darkened windows?
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[23:05] <gonzo__> lots, they are all dark here
[23:06] <Laurenceb__> lol
[23:06] <Laurenceb__> firefox documentation seems to be saying its mac based
[23:07] <Laurenceb__> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/117214_trj001.gif
[23:07] <Laurenceb__> oops
[23:07] <Laurenceb__> If you consent, Firefox gathers information about nearby wireless access points and your computer’s IP address
[23:07] <arko> wow
[23:08] <lz1dev> unless you are on wifi
[23:08] <arko> to think in 2-3 days there will be a hab in this community that has gone around the world
[23:08] <lz1dev> thow can they know the mac for the wifi
[23:08] <mfa298> My old IPv6 had it's geoip in ireland which always made searching google fun
[23:08] <fsphil> to be sure
[23:08] <Laurenceb__> this is clearly not ip based
[23:09] <fsphil> "You searched for Three. Did you mean: Tree"
[23:11] <zyp> wifi bssids are reported by devices like phones that have cell positioning or gps, and then used to locate devices just by wlan or augment other positioning
[23:11] <Laurenceb__> ah i see
[23:11] <Laurenceb__> so google co-ordinates this?
[23:11] <Laurenceb__> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/4213410/how-does-html5-geolocation-work
[23:11] <Laurenceb__> answer 5 is interesting
[23:11] <mfa298> the bssid tracking always makes life fun with mobile wifi hotspots.
[23:12] <zyp> mfa298, yeah
[23:13] <zyp> Laurenceb__, «google location service» is one such database, yes
[23:13] <Laurenceb__> ok
[23:13] <Laurenceb__> hmm i only have geo.enabled
[23:13] <Laurenceb__> how odd
[23:14] <zyp> I seem to recall there were another company doing something like that a few years back, but I can't remember what it was called
[23:14] <zyp> I wonder if they got bought by google
[23:15] <zyp> ah, I'm thinking of Skyhook
[23:15] <zyp> see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-Fi_positioning_system
[23:16] <Laurenceb__> interesting
[23:17] <lz1dev> skyhook was the one apple used
[23:17] <lz1dev> not sure if still is the case
[23:17] <lz1dev> mozilla still run their location service, there is even a ladderboard
[23:17] <lz1dev> https://location.services.mozilla.com/leaders
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[23:47] <N2NXZ> Almost ready for liftoff : http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq22/N2NXZ/Trans%20Atlantic%20balloon%202014/DSCF0019_zpsf8265449.jpg
[23:47] <arko> good luck!
[23:48] <N2NXZ> My eyes are terrible,soldering gets harder everytime
[23:48] <N2NXZ> 1600g came in today too
[23:50] <arko> nice
[23:50] <arko> you're in NY?
[23:50] <N2NXZ> Yes
[23:50] <arko> nice
[23:50] <arko> \o/ yay americans
[23:50] <N2NXZ> haha ha
[23:51] <N2NXZ> Home of giant payloads
[23:51] <N2NXZ> And people...lol
[23:51] <arko> yes indeed
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[00:00] --- Tue Jul 29 2014