highaltitude.log.20140719

[00:00] <arko> hahahaha
[00:00] <Peter__> It wasnt a statement, it was a question.
[00:00] <arko> :;"'\/,.><_+)(*&^%$#@!~`/*-+.{[]}
[00:00] <arko> |\
[00:02] <arko> Are you dead?
[00:03] <Peter__> If I was dead, would I be talking to you right now?
[00:03] <arko> no
[00:03] <arko> yes
[00:03] <arko> tomorrow?
[00:04] <mfa298> never ?
[00:04] <Darkside> now.
[00:04] <arko> soon
[00:04] <Darkside> when is now now?
[00:04] <Peter__> What are other people asking you?
[00:04] <Darkside> how can now, be now?
[00:04] <Darkside> WHEN?!
[00:04] <arko> Peter__: They Don't Think It Be Like It Is But It Do
[00:04] <Peter__> How can they not be?
[00:04] <fsphil> Back then
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[00:04] <mfa298> you can ask me that question yesterday, asking it today or in the future is not an option
[00:04] <arko> Darkside: SOON
[00:04] <DL7AD_> here we go
[00:05] <DL7AD_> did i miss anything?
[00:05] <Darkside> arko: at lease eomeon gets the reference
[00:05] <arko> :P
[00:05] <fsphil> you just missed it
[00:05] <Peter__> So it's a yes then?
[00:05] <arko> Peter__: marry me
[00:05] <Darkside> arko: i see your schwartz is as big as mine
[00:05] <arko> may the schwartz be with you
[00:06] <Peter__> If we were German it would be only so far as that it could not be when Bismark united Germany.
[00:07] <arko> you're either really high or a bot
[00:07] <Peter__> Although #highaltitude is my favourite chatroom.
[00:07] <Peter__> No. I am a magician.
[00:08] <Darkside> Penn?
[00:08] <Darkside> Teller?
[00:08] <Darkside> no, Teller doesn't speak
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[00:08] <Peter__> You don't want to know.
[00:08] <arko> yes i do
[00:08] <fsphil> Teller just uses /me on IRC
[00:08] <Darkside> fsphil: hahaha
[00:08] <arko> LOL
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[00:09] <DL7AD_> nick DL7AD
[00:09] Nick change: DL7AD_ -> DL7AD
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[00:10] <Peter__> Hello UpuWork.
[00:10] <arko> lol
[00:10] <Peter__> Roman orgies are believed to have contributed to the downfall of the Roman Empire.
[00:11] <Peter__> Saturn will float if put in a bath.
[00:12] <Peter__> Blondes have more hair than brown people do.
[00:13] <arko> Peter__: please leave
[00:13] <Peter__> Hello arko.
[00:14] <arko> Peter__: exit
[00:14] <arko> Peter__: leave
[00:14] <Peter__> Do you wish me to go?
[00:14] <arko> yes
[00:15] <Peter__> Thank you for your time. Please can I ask for constructive critique?
[00:15] <arko> no
[00:15] <DL7AD> not at this time
[00:15] <Peter__> You do not wish me to go?
[00:15] <arko> please leave
[00:15] <Peter__> Hello arko.
[00:17] <Peter__> I have spent 35 minutes in this chatroom.
[00:17] <Peter__> I will remain for 5 more minutes. Please say your goodbyes now.
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[00:21] <DL7AE> Wie gehts
[00:21] <Peter__> Hello DL7AE.
[00:21] <DL7AE> Hello.
[00:21] <Peter__> Often goodbyes hurt the most.
[00:21] <DL7AE> Are you okay?
[00:22] <mfa298> Peter__: you realise talking to yourself is a sign of madness
[00:22] <Peter__> Goodbye forum.
[00:22] <Peter__> Nice to chat with #highaltitude.
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[00:23] <DL7AE> Hello Peter.
[00:24] <DL7AE> Peter seems to have gone...
[00:24] <mfa298> DL7AE: seems like Peter is the same person as you
[00:24] <DL7AE> Hello mfa298.
[00:25] <fsphil> :/
[00:26] <DL7AE> Hello fsphil.
[00:34] <DL7AD> DL7AE: moin
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[00:36] <DL7AE> Hello DL7AD.
[00:36] <DL7AE> You are German?
[00:36] <DL7AD> of cours :) but thrust me .
[00:36] <DL7AD> there are just a few germans here
[00:36] <DL7AD> do you come from berlin?
[00:37] <DL7AE> No, I live on the internet, like my cousin Peter.
[00:38] <DL7AD> i will be off. gn.
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[00:38] <DL7AE> I am on.
[00:38] <DL7AE> Goodbye DL7AE.
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[00:39] <DL7AE> Hello DL7AD.
[00:39] <DL7AE> Goodbye DL7AD.
[00:40] <DL7AE> I have been in this chatroom for 20 minutes.
[00:40] <DL7AE> Thankyou to #highaltitude.
[00:40] <DL7AE> Goodbye.
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[06:05] <Ian_> The ligtning moved up to the West Midlands, followed by the rain :(
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[06:11] <G0HDI> 'Morning all, late on parade, just switched on. Getting pips. Is rtty operational?
[06:16] <G0HDI> It's ok, got it now. I was on wrong frequency. Don't know what those pips were, but I'm now on 434.127 and green with APJHAB. Cool!
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[07:11] <jcoxon> morning all
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[07:15] <daveake> You survived then :)
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[07:19] <G0HDI> 'Morning jcoxon
[07:20] <jcoxon> it wasn't that exciting to tell the truth
[07:21] <daveake> It was here
[07:21] <daveake> Woke me up a few times
[07:24] <mfa298> there was a bit here in the aarly hours but it wasn't as impressive as the previous night
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[07:25] <Upu> what complete loony tune has launched APJ ?
[07:25] <jcoxon> hehe
[07:25] <jcoxon> seems to be flying well
[07:26] <Upu> yup sure its fine up there
[07:26] <Upu> sure as hell isn't lower down
[07:26] <mfa298> as long as if it's near a storm it's got a camera and is taking lots of shots
[07:27] <Upu> If its got a camera on it may get some of the storms over the North Sea
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[07:30] <G0HDI> Don't think it has camera. Can't see anything on HABHUB
[07:31] <PE2G> Good morning. What's the dial for APJHAB pls? I have to dig it out of heavy QRM.
[07:31] <Upu> 127
[07:31] <PE2G> Thanks Upu
[07:31] <G0HDI> Signal much weaker with me even though now in green footprint. Must be the height?
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[07:32] <G0HDI> 434.127 with me
[07:33] <PE2G> Roger GOHDI
[07:33] <G0HDI> Not decoding now...Too weak
[07:33] <PE2G> I see it now burried in garbage on the waterfall
[07:35] <PE1CME> 434.127 Here
[07:36] <PE2G> Hi PE1CME. Any QRM over there?
[07:36] <PE1CME> No, nothing at all
[07:37] <PE2G> You're lucky!
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[07:37] <PE1CME> Meter is reading S1 now
[07:38] <PE2G> OK.
[07:39] <PE2G> I have some partials now
[07:39] <Upu> there is a huge electrical storm between you and the payload
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[07:39] <Upu> http://www.lightningmaps.org/realtime?lang=en
[07:39] <G0HDI> Might pick it up on way down. I seem to lose 'em over 19,000 m
[07:40] <PE1CME> Ok, Signal is better now here also
[07:40] <malgar> wooo Japan!!! congrats LeoBodnar !!!
[07:42] <G0HDI> What height does it pop roughly?
[07:42] <malgar> I have a question. How is reconstructed the path of the balloon since is received only in few areas?
[07:42] <malgar> I talk about B-64
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[07:42] <G0HDI> Pass!
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[07:44] <LeoBodnar> malgar: I store the telemetry in the backlog with 2 hour intervals
[07:44] <mfa298> malgar: it stores some of it's positions in memory and has them encoded in the aprs comments, LeoBodnar has then been decoding them and uploading
[07:44] <LeoBodnar> and then transmit them back with current telemetry in a loop
[07:45] <LeoBodnar> so each second new telemetry sentence contains current position and one of the historic points from the log
[07:45] <LeoBodnar> log is 10 days long
[07:45] <malgar> LeoBodnar: wow :) really interesting
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[07:45] <G0HDI> Coming back now, just got a green
[07:46] <malgar> LeoBodnar: you increased the height to avoid weather
[07:46] <LeoBodnar> if you look at the messages http://aprs.fi/?c=raw&call=M0XER-4 the longer ones contain log data
[07:46] <malgar> bad weather?
[07:46] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[07:46] <LeoBodnar> did you manage to receive B-64?
[07:46] <LeoBodnar> or B-66 sorry
[07:46] <malgar> so.. next stop.. east coast :)
[07:47] <LeoBodnar> oh mfa298 has answered before me :D
[07:47] <malgar> LeoBodnar: I tried, but horizon was hidden by mountains
[07:47] <malgar> about 5-10°
[07:47] <LeoBodnar> at least you have beautiful view
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[07:47] <malgar> LeoBodnar: sure :)
[07:48] <G0HDI> APJHAB solid now. Must have been the weather...
[07:49] <malgar> LeoBodnar: unfortunately I see that the number of receivers in Italy has decreased since last month :(
[07:49] <malgar> just me and 1-2 other stations
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[07:50] <LeoBodnar> do you know you can plot your profile? e.g. http://www.heywhatsthat.com/profiler.html?show_grade=0&show_rise=0&include_grade=1&decimal_places=0&elev_source=0&ll1=44.339565,131.835938&ll2=43.325178,138.164063
[07:50] <mfa298> LeoBodnar: I think we answered about the same time.
[07:51] <malgar> LeoBodnar: ohh!!
[07:51] <malgar> I try
[07:52] <LeoBodnar> open >parameters and play with it, you need to enable curved earth, etc
[07:52] <LeoBodnar> it's very useful
[07:52] <LeoBodnar> IRC needs to indicate when someone else is typing
[07:53] <LeoBodnar> like Skype does
[07:53] <LeoBodnar> might create some interesting oscillatory patterns of replies
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[07:59] <G0HDI> Talking about other people typing. Take a look at this http://map.ipviking.com/
[08:00] <malgar> LeoBodnar: how to get a permalink?
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[08:02] <LeoBodnar> not sure but you can save the gif
[08:03] <LeoBodnar> it's static
[08:04] <malgar> LeoBodnar: this is the profile :) http://www.heywhatsthat.com/bin/profile-0904.cgi?src=profiler-0904&curvature=1&axes=1&metric=1&freq=434&refraction=&exaggeration=&pt0=46.291622,11.433934,ff0000&pt1=46.362093,15.125427,,13600
[08:05] <LeoBodnar> oh, cool you've mastered it
[08:05] <LeoBodnar> just below the mountain tops :/
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[08:11] <malgar> http://www.heywhatsthat.com/bin/profile-0904.cgi?src=profiler-0904&curvature=1&axes=1&metric=1&freq=434&refraction=&exaggeration=10&pt0=46.291622,11.433934,ff0000&pt1=46.293816,15.12268,,13600
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[08:18] <LeoBodnar> Do you have a big digger? :)
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[08:24] <malgar> LOL
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[08:29] <mikestir> signed int fail
[08:33] <PE1CME> Altitude for APJHAB is negative, is this OK ?
[08:33] <mikestir> they've used a 16-bit signed int
[08:34] <mikestir> wraps >32767
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[08:34] <mikestir> actual altitude is whatever it says + 65536
[08:34] <Steve_G0TDJ> What should they have used mikestir?
[08:35] <mikestir> either an unsigned 16-bit int or a 32-bit one
[08:35] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cheers
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[08:35] <mikestir> it could also be the format byte used to print it, which would need to be %u rather than %d
[08:37] <Steve_G0TDJ> So many gotchas in C
[08:37] <mikestir> there was perhaps an assumption that "int" is 32-bits wide, which is not the case on AVR
[08:37] <mfa298> not gotchas, that's the power of C
[08:37] <mikestir> indeed. it's all well defined
[08:37] <MarkB_> Hi, Steve, I just sent you an email about 10 mins ago. Small world.
[08:38] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hi Mark :-) I'll go look
[08:38] <MarkB_> RElax, no rush
[08:39] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'm glad you had a good time at Elsworth :-)
[08:40] <jededu> what freq is APJHAB ?
[08:40] <Steve_G0TDJ> 434.125
[08:40] <MarkB_> Thanks Steve. I'm trying to make some progress with my coding. I've looked at loads of resources and attempted to put something together - unsuccessfully. So, I thought I'd spend a few more minutes on here to point me in the next direction.
[08:40] <Steve_G0TDJ> Now that looks like a burst
[08:40] <mikestir> sounds like it
[08:41] <mikestir> 434.127 dial jededu
[08:41] <jededu> Got it thx
[08:41] <Steve_G0TDJ> MarkB_: It's a process you have to take your time at. I'm still trying to get my head round it. Got too much on my plate LOL
[08:41] <mikestir> apparently this balloon is something to do with one of the bbc weather forecasters?
[08:41] <MarkB_> Understood.
[08:42] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yes, Peter Gibbs
[08:42] <Steve_G0TDJ> MarkB_: I can't remember if I've already asked you, are you coming to the conference?
[08:43] <MarkB_> Regrettably (?), my niece has decided to get married on the 16th - in Glasgow.
[08:44] <Steve_G0TDJ> There's always next year :-) It's Lighthouses on the Air day too, I'll miss that (not quite the same I know)
[08:44] <MarkB_> Nevertheless, if I see any other events this year - I will be going
[08:44] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cool
[08:45] <jededu> I presume somone is chasing ?
[08:45] <Steve_G0TDJ> I think Peter is chasing jededu
[08:46] <jededu> Ahh ok
[08:46] <SpeedEvil> MarkB_: As long as they keep up with traditions. 'You may kiss the bride' -> a resounding glasgow kiss.
[08:47] <MarkB_> hahaha, you've met the family then :D
[08:47] <MarkB_> Fellas, I ack you're busy right now. When would be a good time to call back with some Qs?
[08:48] <jededu> EDUHAB3 is mine its coming my way :)
[08:48] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'm not sure I'll be much help, I'll be around later
[08:48] <ak4rp> STS-12 is in the air, 437.680 MHz, RTTY 50 baud, 400 Hz
[08:49] <Steve_G0TDJ> Got a few bits to do before lunch. Hope to catch up with you later MarkB_
[08:49] <MarkB_> OK, thanks. Have a good day all. 73s
[08:49] <Steve_G0TDJ> 73
[08:50] Nick change: Steve_G0TDJ -> Steve_G0TDJ_AFK
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[08:51] <G0HDI> Sig strong again on descent APJHAB. All green
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[08:55] <G0HDI> Could be it's the low angle reception pattern of my Diamond X510N
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[09:05] <jededu> Could be a difficult recovery if it lands in cannock chase
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[09:06] <jededu> But there is a nice visitor center
[09:10] <G0HDI> That's it for me. Green down to 4,145 m Lost it now.
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[09:19] <jededu> Got in down to 370m
[09:19] <mightymik_> shooting butts road?
[09:19] <Reb-SM0ULC> nice fields?
[09:20] <jededu> Yes should be easy
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[09:36] <Reb-SM0ULC> B64 down to 15 km/h. nice quite evening-flight.
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[09:42] <lz1dev> B64 is in a really calm zone right now
[09:42] <lz1dev> http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/isobaric/500hPa/orthographic=174.62,44.65,671
[09:46] <LeoBodnar> pressure at 13000m is about 170kPa not 500
[09:46] <LeoBodnar> i think the closest is 250hPa
[09:46] <LeoBodnar> s/kPa/hPa/
[09:47] <LeoBodnar> but calm zone still :D http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/isobaric/250hPa/orthographic=174.62,44.65,671
[09:48] <gonzo_nb> missed a flight this morning. The HAB world is getting so you blink and another one has gone up!
[09:51] <lz1dev> LeoBodnar: ahh, i've selected the wrong pressure
[09:51] <lz1dev> :)
[09:52] <lz1dev> hopefully the balloon won't die if it gets in the getstream
[09:52] <lz1dev> 200km/h
[09:52] <LeoBodnar> shouldn't
[09:53] <LeoBodnar> unless it's really violent
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[09:58] <lz1dev> fingers cross
[09:58] <lz1dev> almost half way across the earth
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[10:03] <Reb-SM0ULC> lz1dev: a lot of leos earlier balloons have travelled about 140-180 km/h
[10:04] <Reb-SM0ULC> at least the ones swoshing by me
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[10:11] <LeoBodnar> i think my record was 225km/h
[10:12] <LeoBodnar> UK to Algeria in 10 hours http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-48/index.html
[10:13] <jcoxon> morning all
[10:13] <LeoBodnar> morning James
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[10:14] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, its interesting how exact your japan balloons route travel
[10:14] <jcoxon> they take a similar path
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[10:15] <LeoBodnar> maybe it's just a coincidence?
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[10:16] <jcoxon> perhaps
[10:17] <LeoBodnar> but you are right, very similar undulations
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[10:19] <lz1dev> #conspiracy
[10:20] <LeoBodnar> where's my foil suit
[10:21] <jcoxon> LeoBodnar, you only really need the hat for it to be effective
[10:22] <gonzo_> tin foil is no protection from chemtrails though
[10:22] <LeoBodnar> btw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-0TEJMJOhk
[10:22] <LeoBodnar> </conspiracy>
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[10:26] <qyx_> hm, what's happening with sts-12?
[10:27] <qyx_> there are gaps in the telemetry graph
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[10:40] <LeoBodnar> STS-12 is very strange, what sort of balloon it is? latex?
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[10:45] <Hiena> Hey guys, anybody used navspark GPS board on higher position smaple rate?
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[11:14] <Oddstr13> If i understand this thing right, a 32cm piece of copper wire would do as antenna for receiving PMR(446MHz); http://www.csgnetwork.com/antennagenericfreqlencalc.html
[11:14] <Oddstr13> any suggestions?
[11:15] <Oddstr13> It's for my RTL-SDR dongle btw
[11:15] <fsphil> you'd want the quarter wavelength
[11:16] <fsphil> 168mm
[11:16] <Oddstr13> better performance?
[11:17] <Hiena> Oddstr13: Better impedance match, but i would rather buy some cheap, shortened rubber antenna.
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[11:18] <Oddstr13> Hiena: well, where is the fun in that?
[11:18] <Hiena> Les wire cutting, more time to fiddle with the radio.
[11:19] <Hiena> Also, less headache with the signal losses.
[11:19] <Oddstr13> well... I'm sure it would work better than the whip antenna that came with it
[11:20] <Oddstr13> and, buying a antenna would take several days of shipping, i can cut quite a few wires in that time ;)
[11:20] <Hiena> For the 400-800MHz band also good option buying some cheap wideband DVB antenna.
[11:23] <Hiena> Sure. The fast way,If you have some stable signal source in the band, connect a piece of wire which longer than the desired antenna length, tune the radio and check the signal strength, and start short the wire with a cutter.
[11:24] <Hiena> It's works even in the 2.4GHz band.
[11:24] <Oddstr13> i guess i could set the walkie talkie to send on sound, and put it next to a speaker playing music
[11:24] <Oddstr13> the bands are mostly empty anyway
[11:25] <Oddstr13> Hiena: won't learn much about antennas if i just buy one, will i? :P
[11:28] <Hiena> I learned lot about the antennas this way, and also i learned how valuable is my time. ;)
[11:29] <bertrik> Hiena: that's how we tuned a simple stub notch filter to block a strong pager signal at the hacker space :)
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[11:30] <Oddstr13> Hiena: well, i wana play with it now, not in a weeks time ^^
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[12:07] <Oddstr13> I seem to be getting stronger signal with the wire antenna than with the whip that came with the RTL dongle, so goal achieved i guess
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[12:09] <Oddstr13> might have just at much to do with the length of wire between the antenna and the receiver tho, as my wire antenna is connected only with a ~14cm pigtail, and the antenna that came with the dongle has a 1.5m thin coax cable in addition before the antenna?
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[12:11] <bertrik> the antennas that come with the dongle are notoriously bad
[12:14] <mfa298> probably a combination of both. If the anenna is the wrong length for what you want you won't get as much signal transferred to the dongle. And with a longer cable you'll loose more of that limited signal.
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[14:28] <jellyfishtree> anybody hanging around here today?
[14:28] Action: fsphil is lurking a bit
[14:29] Action: Steve_G0TDJ is busy with something
[14:30] <jellyfishtree> I've got an issue with my arduino setup - I've got an NTXB and Copernicus II gps module connected to an arduino. GPS is on pin 3/4 via SoftwareSerial and Radio is on one of the pwm digital pins
[14:30] Action: daveake is removing a mouse nest from the freezer
[14:30] <jellyfishtree> when I have both running together, I am seeing a drop in signal on the NTXB
[14:30] <jellyfishtree> if i disable the software serial, the NTXB signal returns
[14:30] <jellyfishtree> to normal
[14:30] <fsphil> what do you mean by drop in signal?
[14:31] <jellyfishtree> it makes the signal both weaker and creates a carrier shift
[14:31] <jellyfishtree> dl-digi can no longer decipher the rtty
[14:32] <fsphil> software serial is a CPU hog, it will screw up the timings needed for rtty
[14:32] <jellyfishtree> reallly
[14:32] <fsphil> it won't cause a drop in signal strength though
[14:32] <jellyfishtree> maybe it just seems weaker because the timing is weird now
[14:32] <fsphil> carrier shifting can be a voltage thing, if the power supply or a voltage regulator is running near its limit perhaps
[14:33] <jellyfishtree> if i switch to NewSoftSerial or something, do you think that might resolve the CPU issues?
[14:33] <daveake> Entirely possible. I think the 3V3 line on most Arduinos is 50mA max and the GPS probably takes more than that
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[14:33] <daveake> Use hardware serial
[14:33] <jellyfishtree> the ntxb is on the 5v line
[14:34] <jellyfishtree> Im guessing the 5v and 3.3v lines are separated in the arduino
[14:35] <fsphil> not just arduino :)
[14:35] <jellyfishtree> well :)
[14:35] <fsphil> but yes use hardware serial for the gps and make sure it has a good supply of 3.3v
[14:35] <fsphil> and you should be good
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[14:37] <jellyfishtree> ok
[14:38] <jellyfishtree> thanks guys
[14:38] <fsphil> make sure you switch it into Air mode if you intend to fly it on a balloon
[14:38] <fsphil> the datasheet says it only works up to 9km in normal mode
[14:38] <jellyfishtree> yeah, first thing i did. i had to dust off the old windows laptop so i could run the configuration program
[14:38] <fsphil> aah it can be programmed
[14:38] <fsphil> that's handy
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[14:42] <jellyfishtree_> got disconnected
[14:42] <jellyfishtree_> thanks for your help guys
[14:42] <jellyfishtree_> and ladies if there are any
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[14:43] <fsphil> not too many, which is odd
[14:45] <jellyfishtree_> indeed. i'll have to start recruiting
[14:47] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
[14:47] <jellyfishtree_> Hey I have a question about the construction of the Yagi... I've been using John Drew's Yagi Calculator, and I can't seem to figure out the spacing of the elements.
[14:48] <jellyfishtree_> Does he want us to space out the elements with his measurements starting from the boom?
[14:48] <jellyfishtree_> http://www.vk5dj.com/yagi.html
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[14:51] <jellyfishtree_> (this is the other guy working with jellyfishtree)
[15:05] <Laurenceb> oh no
[15:05] <Laurenceb> B-64 curling south
[15:06] <Ian_> No Jellyfishtree, the distances are all from the reflector. Normally the centre of each diameter. Given that way to save confusion from those that can't handle a ruler properly if the distance between each susequent element is given. Mark the positions on the boom - the thick bit at right angles to the elements, not the person holding it . . . :)
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[15:14] <jellyfishtree_> thanks Ian
[15:16] <Ian_> Within reason, the diameter of the elements determines the effective bandwidth, but of course taken towards either extreme it starts to screw around with the calculations.
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[15:24] <jellyfishtree_> turns out the calc we are using gives both measurements - from the reflector and from the boom start
[15:24] <jellyfishtree_> we are using elements close to 1mm in diameter (basically some rg6 core wires)
[15:24] <jellyfishtree_> so not much diameter to worry about
[15:27] <jellyfishtree_> we read somewhere that for 434mhz/70cm band anywhere from .6mm to 13mm is ok
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[15:45] <Ian_> The potential problem with such thin elements is that the bandwidth is reduced. Not a problem of course if used for a spot frequency, but the drop off above and below will be a lot faster than if you had used 4 or 5mm elements. Typically the roll off is slightly faster on the high frequency side of things.
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[15:50] <jededu> The storm was a bit of an anti climax very inactive I expected better
[15:51] <jededu> So diddnt bother to launch
[15:52] <jededu> Was APJHAB recovered ?
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[17:57] <jededu> I have moved todays flight to tomorrow do I have to doanother flight doc ?
[17:59] <daveake> Ask in #habhub they might be able to just change the date
[17:59] <jededu> Thx daveake
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[18:02] <jededu> Odd habhub is completly empty
[18:02] <jededu> Just me
[18:03] <jededu> Ahh hadhub lol
[18:07] <Reb-SM0ULC> :)
[18:08] <craag> The defeatist ones of us live in #hadhab
[18:10] <daveake> Ah yes, where the topics are trees, seas and stolen payloads
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[18:13] <craag> Don't forget silent gps trackers.
[18:14] <Reb-SM0ULC> craag: disciplined radiosilence :/
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[18:17] <craag> Some we think just get stagefright.
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[18:19] <Reb-SM0ULC> possible. i would have placed a bet on afraid of heigts
[18:20] <madist> do you guys diy gps antennas ?
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[18:25] <mikestir> madist: I used a half wave dipole for gps on a pico - worked fine. I think LeoBodnar uses something similar
[18:27] <madist> mikestir: Did you just build the antenna to calculated dimensions or did you have to tune the dimensions after building it ? there is an arrl article about a "turnstile" antenna (2 dipoles) which looks equally simple to build. https://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/0210036.pdf I'm thinking of trying that.
[18:29] <mikestir> I just calculated it. A turnstile would have the advantage of actually being circularly polarised, but the dipole worked at least as well as those little chip antennas, so it might not be worth the bother
[18:29] <mikestir> I assume you need some sort of phasing network with that?
[18:29] <madist> I don't know what a phasing network is
[18:30] <mikestir> I'm just having a look at the article
[18:35] <mikestir> yeah they consider that in the "Theory of operation" section. In a normal turnstile the two dipoles are fed 90 degrees out of phase using some kind of delay line - usually a length of coax. In this one they achieve the same effect by deliberately detuning the dipoles so they have a reactive component that provides the phase shift
[18:36] <Reb-SM0ULC> mikestir: novel way to skip the phasing netw
[18:37] <mikestir> yeah it's quite neat
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[18:38] <qyx_> hm, is it possible to replace this metal plate with wires?
[18:39] <mikestir> might not even be needed - I've seen some weather satellite turnstiles with a lower parastic set of crosesd elements, but a lot just seem to have the driven elements only
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[18:40] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:40] <Reb-SM0ULC> lol, "you can use an Ethernet coax cable found
[18:40] <Reb-SM0ULC> at most computer stores"
[18:40] <mikestir> yeah that made me laugh
[18:40] <madist> is there any significance to the base being exactly 4 inch dia circular ?
[18:40] <mikestir> I had to check the date
[18:41] <madist> it can be any shape any size, i think ?
[18:43] <mikestir> probably best to try it - I suppose you'd need an antenna analyser or VNA for it to be worthwhile though
[18:43] <qyx_> whats wrong with ethernet coax?
[18:43] <qyx_> aside the fact it is not used for almost 20 years
[18:43] <Reb-SM0ULC> qyx_: it doesn't exist.. :)'
[18:43] <mikestir> nothing - I have boxes of it in the garage that I occasionally hack up for RF things
[18:43] <qyx_> Reb-SM0ULC: why do you think?
[18:44] <madist> I've never seen ethernet coax.
[18:44] <madist> only read about it in textbooks.
[18:44] <qyx_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10base2
[18:44] <mikestir> it's just RG58
[18:45] <mikestir> nothing special about it
[18:45] <qyx_> standard RG58
[18:45] <mfa298> or RG8 (I think) if you've going for 10Base-5 and vampire taps
[18:45] <mikestir> yes
[18:45] <qyx_> you can get lot of it when someone is upgrading some super-old infrastructure
[18:45] <mikestir> RG58 was known as thin-net iirc
[18:45] <Reb-SM0ULC> qyx_: at least in sweden coax ethernet stopped selling around 1995
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[18:46] <qyx_> yep :)
[18:47] <mfa298> rg58 was more common (and I've seen active networks using it although not recently) I've also seen thicknet installed but I dont think it was active any more.
[18:47] <mikestir> it makes me laugh that my internet connection is 15 times faster than the LAN we had when I was at uni
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[18:48] <craag> I'm looking forward to the day that'll be true for me :)
[18:48] <mattbrejza> if only that was true for me
[18:48] <mattbrejza> hehe
[18:48] <mfa298> I've also seen other forms of coax used for other forms of internet connection (e.g. E1 using G.703 with 75R coax)
[18:48] <qyx_> in 1998 at high school we still had 10base2 ipx network with some novell servers
[18:50] <qyx_> or HPNA uses 75R coax, widely used here for ~150mbit broadband
[18:50] <qyx_> RG6
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[18:51] <Reb-SM0ULC> mfa298: we have a little stretch with good old yellow thicknet between a couple of cabinets at work. not in use for some 15 years but not cleaned away
[18:52] <mfa298> Reb-SM0ULC: that's similar to the bits I saw. usually at the bottom of a network cab or on the wall next to it where it hadn't been fully removed.
[18:52] <Reb-SM0ULC> mikestir: i still had 10 gbit LAN at uni so will take a few minutes before my home-WAN beat that :)
[18:53] <mikestir> yeah I'm talking about the one we through together in our student house, and this was 15 years ago
[18:53] <mikestir> it wasn't coax, but it was only 10 meg
[18:53] <mikestir> s/through/threw/
[18:53] <Reb-SM0ULC> mikestir: but down the memory lane.. sun ipx with cache ram over half duplex coax ethernet.. with missing terminators... mmmm
[18:54] <mikestir> like qyx_ we had 10base2 novell IPX when I was at school. removing a terminator would bring down the entire network
[18:54] <mfa298> in my halls we had 10Base2 around the block that we installed. I'm now using that 100m drum of rg58 for various bits of antenna building - that was a good investment of cable :)
[18:54] <qyx_> uh, we had ronja in student house, 10mbit over red light :)
[18:55] <qyx_> from school
[18:56] <Reb-SM0ULC> mikestir: finally got the fiber installed at home in may. the service is 100 mbit, but it's a shaped 1 gbit so anything less than a couple of MB goes at wirespeed. give some perspective on the good old coax :)
[18:57] <qyx_> passive mutiplexed optics?
[18:58] <Reb-SM0ULC> qyx_: at my house? single fiber cbx-sfp
[18:58] <Reb-SM0ULC> qyx_: at the hub there's a bunch of HP-switches
[18:59] <qyx_> hm, cbx?
[18:59] <Reb-SM0ULC> qyx_: single fiber with two different wavelengths
[19:00] <qyx_> ah, wdm :)
[19:00] <qyx_> or at least i know it under that name
[19:02] <Reb-SM0ULC> mm, have to check up "cbx". just know it from the ordering papers
[19:02] <mfa298> sounds like its a form of wdm
[19:02] <Reb-SM0ULC> mfa298_: yes, it is
[19:03] <Reb-SM0ULC> mfa298_: with tunable sfps there will be magic. when they are cheap anough
[19:08] <Reb-SM0ULC> mfa298_: we have a lot of coax at work but it's for video... so 75 ohm... :/
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[19:10] <qyx_> ok, so the ground plane under the turnstile is to reflect LHCP waves goind down as RHCP going up
[19:10] <qyx_> apparently
[19:11] <mfa298> Reb-SM0ULC: I have a fair bit of coax like that at home, Same cables for video, audio, tv/radio/sat coax
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[19:14] <SkippyUK> recomendations on where to get a ballon from in a week
[19:14] <SkippyUK> teathered lift of about 3 kg
[19:14] <SkippyUK> and if there is an easy way to work out how much gas i would need for two days
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> tethered is all sorts of fun.
[19:15] <SpeedEvil> why?
[19:16] <SkippyUK> For Maker Fair, Manchester
[19:16] <SpeedEvil> Is it indoors?
[19:16] <SkippyUK> just been told they have failed to organise the ballon for _next_ weekend
[19:16] <SkippyUK> outdoors
[19:16] <SpeedEvil> What will you do if there is a 10mph wind?
[19:17] <SpeedEvil> At best - if you've sized your balloon so it has a notional 5m/s ascent, that will mean it's now at 45 degrees on the tether
[19:17] <SkippyUK> i was thinking three teathers, to three diverse points, but if the wind is too high it will be grounded
[19:19] <SkippyUK> so a kinda tripod setup
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[19:20] <SpeedEvil> That helps, yes.
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> Also, if your balloon is at any point >2m in diameter, then you need approval - which you won't get in time.
[19:20] <SpeedEvil> What are you trying to lift?
[19:21] <SkippyUK> r-Pi camera
[19:21] <SkippyUK> and the cable
[19:21] <SkippyUK> so payload should be much closer to 1 kg
[19:23] <SkippyUK> will this be approprate? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/High-Altitude-Weather-Balloons-amp-Parachutes-200g-600g-1200g-/261224601780?_trksid=p2054897.l4275
[19:25] <SkippyUK> altitude will be less than 60 meters
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[19:28] <amell> Having trouble viewing snus on ipad. Presumably too many points. Can someone remind me of the filter syntax?
[19:29] <SA6BSS-Mike> try this http://habmap.philcrump.co.uk/
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[19:31] <Geoff-G8DHE-m> Payload 1kg ?? With three tethers and a cable ??
[19:31] <amell> Thanks
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[19:31] <SpeedEvil> I would say ask edmoore - but he's wandered off
[19:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> amell: or http://spacenear.us/tracker/?filter=B-64
[19:32] <SkippyUK> 1Kg inc the mass of the cables and teatheres
[19:33] <SpeedEvil> In principle, the 1200g one may suit - you want it quite thick, because accidental contact with stuff is bad.
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[19:34] <amell> Strangely, the filtered b-64 still crashes ipad safari
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> This will mean you need a lift of about 2.5kg total, say 10kg, in order to keep up against any wind at all. 7m^3 or so of helium or hydrogen
[19:34] <SkippyUK> latex ballons seeming not to be a fan of humans and other things?
[19:34] <SpeedEvil> SkippyUK: yes, they're fragile
[19:35] <SkippyUK> thank you for your help :)
[19:36] <fsphil> also don't use H2 :)
[19:37] <SA6BSS-Mike> amell: try chrome
[19:37] <SkippyUK> h2?
[19:38] <fsphil> hydrogen
[19:38] <fsphil> it's a bit cheaper than helium, but explosive :)
[19:38] <daveake> more bang for you buck
[19:38] <daveake> r
[19:38] <fsphil> a public event somewhere used it a few years ago, and it all went up
[19:39] <SkippyUK> i was not going to try hydrogen
[19:39] <fsphil> good :)
[19:39] <SkippyUK> i was going to use helum, although i suspect at this point i would be unable to find industrial helium
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> Whee areyou
[19:39] <SpeedEvil> where
[19:39] <SkippyUK> Manchester
[19:40] <daveake> You can get 9m^3 of helium in time no problem
[19:40] <daveake> Biggest problem is needing very little wind
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[19:41] <SkippyUK> less than 10mph
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[19:42] <SkippyUK> going up here http://www.mosi.org.uk/
[19:44] <amell> Skippyuk is there a budget for this thing?
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[19:44] <SkippyUK> the less the better
[19:44] <amell> I know a man who can do this
[19:45] <mfa298> I suspect you might want something a bit more aerodynamic than a latex balloon. I know a company that does something that might be more suitable has been mentioned on here before but I'm not sure who it is (I think it's one Ed mentioned)
[19:45] <mfa298> SkippyUK: what cable(s) is it your planning on sending up to the balloon ?
[19:46] <SkippyUK> Cat 5 (POE)
[19:46] <amell> Skippyuk: http://www.allsopp.co.uk will do what you want
[19:46] <mfa298> 5V based PoE ? or proper 48V PoE
[19:46] <SkippyUK> 24V with 5V reg at far end
[19:47] <mfa298> hopefully thats a switching reg rather than linear reg.
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[19:47] <mfa298> I'd want to test it out but there's a reasonable chance of that working.
[19:47] <SkippyUK> yes
[19:47] <SkippyUK> its what i use for powering things already
[19:48] <amell> Helikite from Allsopp. See the range available.
[19:49] <SkippyUK> having a look at the helikit
[19:49] <mfa298> presumably you've tested at that length of cat5 cable as well (although hopefully the voltage drop at 24v and much lower current won't be too bad)
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[19:49] <amell> Why do you need 1kg payload. What exactly are you lifting
[19:50] <SkippyUK> 100 meters works fine
[19:50] <amell> Poe over 100m is absolutely fine
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[19:51] <Reb-SM0ULC> SkippyUK: poe+ ?
[19:52] <mfa298> amell: well that depends on what your powering and how long the run it. Where I work people keep trying to do high current (2A in one case) PoE at 5V on long bits of dodgy cable which isn't going to work too well.
[19:53] <amell> Yes at work I tend to keep Poe under 80m
[19:53] <amell> This isn't Poe though? It's just pumping voltage up the cat5 without using Ethernet?
[19:55] <daveake> He's got 24V and a switching reg, and a total consumption of approx 5W. It'll be fine.
[19:55] <daveake> sry 2.5W
[19:56] <amell> 500m would probably be fine too!
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[19:56] <amell> SkippyUK: Have you ordered your Helikite yet?
[19:56] <mfa298> the issue tends to be the voltage drop which if you're pulling significant loads over a long distance will be an issue. In this case it'll be fine. In some cases of people trying to push power over cat5 cable then it won't work (e.g. the case of 5V @ 2A)
[19:57] <amell> Agreed but there's 19V to lose here..
[19:57] <daveake> ofc. But it's only 100mA
[19:57] <daveake> And his switcher will probably work at 7V
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[19:59] <daveake> Anyone trying 5V@2A over long lengths needs to go ohm
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[20:01] <mfa298> although in this case they also failed by using one of the power/ethernet spliters at the device end and plugging the other end into a PoE switch
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[20:01] <mfa298> result one fried regulator in the device (it's a linear reg and not rated for 48V)
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[20:03] <daveake> ouch
[20:04] <mikestir> I thought PoE switches were supposed to negotiate before applying power?
[20:04] <amell> Well, snus crashes chrome on ipad too....
[20:04] <mikestir> proper ones I mean
[20:04] <amell> Yes they agree power budget
[20:04] <amell> In this case clearly the Poe switch wasn't doing its job
[20:05] <amell> It was a shit switch
[20:05] <amell> A real one cuts the power to the port if it detects abuse
[20:05] <mfa298> they have to provide some power (otherwise how can the other end negotiate)
[20:06] <Laurenceb> one extreme storm on blitzortung
[20:06] <amell> You would not believe what abuse the Poe switches get that are providing phone service to student residences...
[20:06] <mfa298> Reg was max input 15V so even a split second of 48V might have been enough to fry it. although I'm not sure I'd trust that PoE switch to be that good either.
[20:07] <qyx_> they apply power only if 25kOhm is detected
[20:07] <qyx_> and then only 12V
[20:07] <qyx_> then there are more mechanisms to negotiate max power and only then 48V is applied
[20:07] <amell> qyx_: thumbsup
[20:09] <qyx_> or even less than 12V, according to wiki
[20:09] <mfa298> considering it's the only unmanaged PoE switch I've ever come accross I wouldn't hold up much hope of it doing something sensible.
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[20:09] <Laurenceb> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/171995_trj001.gif
[20:09] <Laurenceb> lol circumnavigation
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[20:18] <gonzo_nb> sounds painful
[20:22] <Geoff-G8DHE-m> 60m of cat5 cable will w eight a lot more than a kilo!!
[20:23] <mikestir> pull the cat5 apart and make each tether out of a pair. one for tx, one for rx, one for power :)
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[20:30] <qyx_> one more question regarding that turnstile antenna
[20:31] <qyx_> is it possible to feed it from the top?
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[20:31] <qyx_> they are using microstrip feed line from the reflector, coax is attached at the bottom
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[20:39] <LeoBodnar> http://earth.nullschool.net/#current/wind/isobaric/250hPa/orthographic=146.4667,44.4735,3000
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[20:49] <astrobiologist> evening
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[20:50] <fsphil> ahoy
[20:50] <astrobiologist> can anybody give me some advice on soldering?
[20:50] <fsphil> don't touch the hot bit
[20:50] <SpeedEvil> Don't solder naked.
[20:50] <Northants> Anyone have APJHAB freq please ?
[20:50] <gonzo_nb> a traditional turnstile is just a phased set of dipoles over a crossed reflector
[20:51] <gonzo_nb> so the feed is at the top anyway.
[20:51] <astrobiologist> SpeedEvil are you speaking from experience??
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> yes.
[20:51] <SpeedEvil> Solder balls are bad.
[20:51] <astrobiologist> how naked were you?? (I was actually soldering topless today 'cos it was so damn hot)
[20:51] <fsphil> Northants: it's not currently flying
[20:52] <astrobiologist> I was trying to solder an SMA connector. soldering the pin onto the inner conductor seemed extremely difficult. the solder didn't want to melt at all.
[20:52] <gonzo_nb> the conversation is not sounding good. Please don't ask him to talk dirty to youi!
[20:52] <fsphil> did you try flux?
[20:53] <Northants> OK thanks for that, I just saw its only at 461 m ;-) Anything planned for Sunday ?
[20:53] <astrobiologist> gonzo_nb I assure you this is professional discussion about the disadvantages of soldering in summer levels of low clothing
[20:53] <astrobiologist> fsphil it was flux core solder but no, I didn't put flux on separately
[20:54] <fsphil> the pin itself might need some flux
[20:54] <chrisstubbs> astrobiologist, how were you holding the pin? you might be conducting too much heat away from your iron
[20:54] <fsphil> oh yes, it's not even melting
[20:54] Action: fsphil can't read
[20:54] <gonzo_nb> the basics of soldering. Mase sure the surfaces to solder are clean. use the right solder for the job (lead/lead free), use the correct iron temp. Use the bigest bit you can for the job (to get heat into the joint)
[20:54] <astrobiologist> chrisstubbs I thought the pin or the inner conductor might have been conducting away the hear
[20:56] <chrisstubbs> did you have the pin clamped in a big metal vice or anything? and how many watts is your iron?
[20:56] <gonzo_nb> then apply the iron to the joint to bring the joint to temp. use a bit of solder to wet the joint to help get the hesat in. then feed solder into the joint. and remove the iron/solder as quick as poss woce the joint is done
[20:56] <fsphil> do you have a larger soldering tip?
[20:56] <chrisstubbs> 60w iron and holding the pin in a croc clip works for me
[20:56] <astrobiologist> I was holding it in a Croc clip. it was an sma plug (so the pin was tiny and the hole in the pin for the solder was tinier still)
[20:57] <astrobiologist> I was using a gas soldering iron, only one tip
[20:58] <gonzo_nb> I apply the tip of the iron to the joint, put a topuch of solder on the tip, so it flows into the joint, just to get the heat in, then move the solder feed into the joint
[20:58] <astrobiologist> maplin had a "proper" soldering iron with an LCD temp display on special offer today for £50, would that do the job?
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[20:58] <chrisstubbs> Hmm, those gas irons can be a bit duff. Check your solder is actually solder too, not wire :P
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[20:59] <chrisstubbs> Its a cruel trick but happens from time to time
[20:59] <fsphil> hah
[20:59] <gonzo_nb> many burnt fingers from using resistor leg clippings instead of bits of solder
[20:59] <astrobiologist> It's a tube marked "solder" and it melts on the soldering iron in a soldery way
[20:59] <fsphil> you can use wire, you just need more heat :)
[21:00] <gonzo_nb> if you can find rosin cored solder, it's better than the no-clean flux. that stuff just disapears in a puff of smoke the second it hitds the iron
[21:00] <astrobiologist> I was wondering if I just needed a bloody big blunt tipped soldering iron for things like this
[21:01] <mfa298> fsphil: I think that's usually known as Brazing or Welding :p
[21:01] <gonzo_nb> I have to use a jam jar ad paint bvrush of flux wuth the no-clean stuff
[21:01] <astrobiologist> or something more sophisticated like an iron with temp display etc - which presumably has active control of the tip temperature?
[21:01] <gonzo_nb> temp controled irons are far better than non
[21:02] <chrisstubbs> got a link to the one you were looking at?
[21:02] <gonzo_nb> even if a fixed temp type (weller magnastat etc)
[21:03] <astrobiologist> I saw it in store, will see if it is online
[21:03] <astrobiologist> http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/60-w-lcd-display-solder-station-n89cz
[21:04] <astrobiologist> actually there's a whole bunch around the same price
[21:05] <astrobiologist> http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/60w-professional-lcd-solder-station-with-esd-protection-a55kj
[21:06] <chrisstubbs> I have one very similar to that A55KJ and its not bad
[21:06] <chrisstubbs> mine is an atten but looks identical
[21:06] <astrobiologist> http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/48w-professional-2-line-lcd-display-solder-station-n34fb but only 48w
[21:07] <chrisstubbs> whatever you get get a nice selection of tips for it and a copule of decent quality tweezers
[21:07] <astrobiologist> the a55kj has a selection of tips available so that settles it :-)
[21:08] <chrisstubbs> http://www.pcb-soldering.co.uk/ are pretty good
[21:08] <astrobiologist> I have a lovely selection of ESD tweezers and others
[21:08] <chrisstubbs> some nice sharp stainless tweezers are priceless after trying to use crappy 99p ebay ones before
[21:09] <astrobiologist> Thanks chrisstubbs. basically anything you guys recommend, I'm really grateful for your help
[21:09] <astrobiologist> the gas iron just about can solder stuff but connector pins etc it seems to cr*p out on
[21:09] <chrisstubbs> Hah this is where I got my soldering iron advice, it all depends how much you want to spend really
[21:09] <chrisstubbs> weller/metcal/hakko are good if you have moneys
[21:10] <astrobiologist> 50, 60 quid seems OK for me for now
[21:10] <chrisstubbs> get a couple of spare elements becuase they do go after a while, and you will only end up waiting for a new one to arrive
[21:11] <astrobiologist> the a55kj has the spare parts listed so may be worth going for
[21:12] <mightymik_> hakko clones on eBay if you are so inclined ...
[21:13] <astrobiologist> nice pointy tip as option: http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/replacement-tips-for-60w-professional-lcd-solder-station-a55kj-a19kk
[21:13] <chrisstubbs> with that iron you will probably find you cant get much heat into the joint with the thinnest tip
[21:13] <chrisstubbs> if soldering to a big ground plane or anything
[21:14] <astrobiologist> chrisstubbs back to square one then, curses.
[21:15] <chrisstubbs> you just have to use a sensible size tip
[21:15] <astrobiologist> chrisstubbs but do those all look too fine-pointed?
[21:15] <chrisstubbs> I started soldering ublox chips with the smallest one but actually found it easier with the more "medium" sized one
[21:16] <chrisstubbs> nah the other 2 look fine, depending what you want to solder of couse
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[21:17] <astrobiologist> chrisstubbs I have just lost a bit of confidence because I couldn't even solder a SMA centre pin onto a coax with a fairly blunt tip
[21:17] <chrisstubbs> I think gas irons are a different kettle of fish to normal ones. Cant say ive used one myself
[21:18] <chrisstubbs> the kind of thing that I would only want to use as a last resort
[21:18] <chrisstubbs> anybody else care to throw in their two penneth?
[21:18] <astrobiologist> I was totally out of plugs and also it would have been useful in black rock desert in 2010!
[21:19] <astrobiologist> it seems to me that an iron with active temperature control will always be better
[21:19] <astrobiologist> just need to negotiate with wife on purchase price and find somewhere to store it when not in use...
[21:21] <gonzo_nb> on the work bench
[21:21] <astrobiologist> gonzo_nb don't really have one - one bed flat
[21:21] <gonzo_nb> get a hammock
[21:22] <astrobiologist> already have a wallbed! bedroom for nipper
[21:22] <chrisstubbs> http://www.sleeplandbeds.co.uk/_0_0_435CO.jpg
[21:22] <chrisstubbs> Man, I used to have one of these
[21:23] <chrisstubbs> Why does that all look so photoshopped in?
[21:23] <qyx_> meh, not very realistic visialization
[21:23] <chrisstubbs> no, and what happened to the tree?
[21:23] <mikestir> astrobiologist: definitely don't get anything less than 60W
[21:23] <gonzo_nb> a friend was in the forces mess, put the bed up on stilts to get room for the bench. inspecting officers were not to impressed
[21:24] <mfa298> I've got a gas soldering iron that was ok to start with but doesn't seem to be good for soldering any more
[21:24] <astrobiologist> mikestir: the maplin one looked reasonable, I probably don't need it again for a while now anyway
[21:24] <gonzo_nb> gas irons are not great at temp control
[21:24] <mfa298> I think as the metal has oxsidised (or something like that) it doesn't transfer the heat too well
[21:25] <astrobiologist> mfa298 I had the same feeling about mine. in which case it went downhill within a couple of evenings! :-O
[21:26] <gonzo_nb> the iron coated tips don't last for ever, then the tip copper oxidises reall quick
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[21:26] <mfa298> Mine tends to be used more as a hot air gun or small blow torch
[21:26] <gonzo_nb> the iron coating should be good for more than a few eves
[21:26] <astrobiologist> anything I can do to rescue the tip?
[21:26] <gonzo_nb> replace
[21:27] <astrobiologist> but I literally only used it for a few days :-O :-O
[21:27] <gonzo_nb> I've killed them when leavinig it on for a week, by accidentr
[21:27] <gonzo_nb> what make?
[21:28] <astrobiologist> iroda
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[21:28] <gonzo_nb> the weller gas iron I used to have at work was pretty good though. sometimes used it rather than a bench iron, for duifficult access jobs
[21:29] <gonzo_nb> never hraed on ethem
[21:29] <gonzo_nb> never heard of them
[21:31] <chrisstubbs> Antenna question: Can I use 3 radials instead of 4 on my payloads 1/4 wave GP?
[21:31] <astrobiologist> gonzo_nb: if I brush the tip with flux will it help clean it?
[21:31] <Ian_> I once saw someone's veroboard based project badly scortched from the incompetant use of a gas soldering iron. Best used in desperation, but best place in a bin.
[21:32] <gonzo_nb> use a damp soldering iron sponge
[21:32] <Ian_> chrisstubbs, you could, but it will probably be a little less efficient.
[21:32] <chrisstubbs> so much less to worry about?
[21:32] <gonzo_nb> or even just a bit of cotton based material (jeans etc)
[21:33] <astrobiologist> Ian_: yep I have scorched a pin on some matrixboard with that iron... right then, will order the 60w maplin one and keep it for special occasions
[21:33] <chrisstubbs> the radials are getting in the way of my cameras :p
[21:34] <astrobiologist> gonzo_hb tried the sponge that came with the iron and also those golden sponges that look like they are made of metal scouring pads (but golden)
[21:35] <Ian_> If you can, check the match. As you know, with four elements the angle is slightly more than 90 degrees to get a best match and may require a bit more droop on three radials to get the same impedance match - witnessed as more smoke!
[21:35] <Ian_> Where smoke = signal of course!
[21:36] <astrobiologist> Ian_ I was going to say, quite a Nov otherwise!
[21:36] <mfa298> chrisstubbs: I think you can get away with 3 radials without too much issue if they're reasonably evenly spaced.
[21:37] <chrisstubbs> would 4 radials unevenly spaced be better?
[21:37] <chrisstubbs> I can imagine you will end up with a funky radiation pattern
[21:37] <mfa298> probably depends on where they are.
[21:38] <gonzo_nb> it's not that critical
[21:38] <gonzo_nb> 2 would probably not result in huge fading effects
[21:38] <mfa298> with 3+ radials it shouldn't make too much difference to the radiation pattern
[21:39] <gonzo_nb> the fading of the payload swinging would be more noticeable
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[21:44] <chrisstubbs> cool, i will give 3 a try then :)
[21:45] <Upu_M0UPU> 2 radials work
[21:45] <Upu_M0UPU> you just get some mild fading as it spins
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[22:17] <mfa298> 1 radial would also work, if it's bent 180 degrees from the driven element. :p
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[22:23] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:24] <amell> Any ideas for an irc client for ipad that actually stays connected when in another app???
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[22:29] Nick change: amell_ -> amell
[22:30] <astrobiologist> amell: have you tried limechat?
[22:30] <amell> Will look
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[22:38] <Ian_> Hmmmm, mfa298: one radial, would that be a counterpoise or an inverted dipole, in which case the radiation pattern might be quite interesting, being a bit squint if the driven(?) element is vertical.
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[23:13] <gonzo_nb> 1 radial at 180deg from the driven element = dipole
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[23:16] <mfa298> that was what I was going for :)
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[23:17] <gonzo_nb> the feed point of a dipole is about 70 ohm
[23:17] <gonzo_nb> but that's not too bad really
[23:18] <gonzo_nb> a 1/4wave gp is theoretically 35R, so just as mismatched, but in the other direction
[23:19] <gonzo_nb> sloping the gp elements down (or up for habs) is a way of tweaking the match
[23:19] <gonzo_nb> not sure if it makes it a resistive match still, or adds a bit of reactance?
[23:20] <gonzo_nb> but for our applications, anything better than 2:1 is probably fine
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[23:48] <Laurenceb> http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/172452_trj001.gif
[23:48] <Laurenceb> not looking so good now :-S
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[00:00] --- Sun Jul 20 2014