highaltitude.log.20140704

[00:05] <amell> the magenta path has B-62 in california c. 14th july. Unlikely but&
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[00:28] <amell> I see the loop has appeared
[00:29] <amell> bigger than i thought it would be
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[03:09] <vk3xco> .
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[08:20] <fsphil> first
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[08:32] <Herman-PB0AHX> GM all
[08:34] <daveake> third
[08:35] <mfa298> forth (and now we're upto programming languages)
[08:37] <fsphil> C what you did there
[08:38] <number10> did I read in an email thread that eroodme is doing a talk on instrementation at the conference
[08:38] <fsphil> it was mentioned yea
[08:38] <number10> thgreat stuff
[08:39] <number10> -th..
[08:41] <amell> ublox gps module with sarantel, any idea how much exposure they need to outside? Im not getting a lock by the window.
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[08:41] <amell> had planned to put it inside a ABS box, but not sure how radiolucent that would be.
[08:42] <SpeedEvil> amell: windows can have reflective films
[08:42] <SpeedEvil> these are made for IR, but also block GPS
[08:43] <nats`> they totally block it at work I can't even have a lock with an active antenna
[08:43] <nats`> it works at home
[08:43] <nats`> SpeedEvil you know what is in these film ?
[08:43] <amell> ok, so a abs box should be radiolucent enough to get a lock? The windows i have dont have laminate.
[08:44] <amell> trying again with window open
[08:44] <SpeedEvil> amell: it's not visible
[08:45] <amell> these are bog standard domestic windows, no pilkington K glass etc.
[08:49] <craag> amell: ABS box will be fine.
[08:49] <craag> Just don't paint it with anything metallic!
[08:52] <amell> Satellites: 255 - i doubt it
[08:53] <Boelle_DK> nats` + SpeedEvil is it not the same as some cars have a blocker in the windshield for the sun?
[08:53] <SpeedEvil> Boelle_DK: not really
[08:53] <SpeedEvil> Well - sort-of
[08:54] <SpeedEvil> But the reflection layer that's important can be invisible, whereas cars usually have some visible reduction too
[08:54] <nats`> for me in car it's a plastic film to avoid making sharp glass breaking piece
[08:54] <Boelle_DK> ok, i know its a thin layer of copper in some windows... VERY thin, if seen from right angle outside it has a reddish shine to it
[08:54] <SpeedEvil> Basically, any 'energy saving' window can reflect RF
[08:54] <SpeedEvil> Unless you know it doesn't.
[08:54] <Boelle_DK> on top of the lamination
[08:54] <SpeedEvil> And yes, there is usually an odd colour at some angles to them
[08:59] <amell> ok so im now getting good lock, with 255 satellites&
[09:00] <amell> and im getting corrupt serial output.
[09:00] <nats`> 255 satellite ?
[09:00] <amell> thats what tinygps is reporting
[09:00] <nats`> it seems an overflow or an error value
[09:01] <nats`> as far as I know it's not possible to lock 255 satellite on GPS
[09:01] <amell> I quite agree.
[09:01] <mikestir-work> amell: "bog standard domestic windows" from the last 10 years or so will be K glass or equivalent
[09:01] <mikestir-work> it can also take a very long time to get a lock indoors, but once locked it will work fine
[09:01] <amell> mikestir-work, these windows are c. 20 years old.
[09:02] <mikestir-work> they are probably ok. I can generally get a fix on my little tracker with a bit of wire for an antenna in an internal downstairs room some distance away from an outside wall/window
[09:02] <mikestir-work> but it takes a _long_ time
[09:03] <SA6BSS> amell: Old trick to see if the plastic you are planing to put your gps in is god for RF is to put it in a microwave owen, if its still ambiant after 30sek on full power it should be god for RF aplications
[09:03] <mikestir-work> also re abs box: some black plastics are coloured with carbon which can attenuate rf, so if you use a plastic box pick a white one
[09:04] <amell> mine is black :)
[09:04] <amell> ambiant ?
[09:04] <mikestir-work> do was SA6BSS suggests then (but put a cup of water in with it)
[09:04] <gonzo_> I';ve seen the same with heatshrink tube
[09:04] <mikestir-work> s/was/what/
[09:04] <SA6BSS> mikestir-work: god idea, so the owen not going emty
[09:04] <gonzo_> used soem to seal the matching coil on an antenna
[09:05] <SA6BSS> amell: not wqrm to touch
[09:05] <SA6BSS> *warm
[09:05] <amell> got you.
[09:05] <amell> right now i have more basic problems. serial console is not displaying cleanly. keeps missing characters.
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[09:24] <fsphil> a serial killer?
[09:26] <daveake> Like GoT? Every week another missing character
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[09:29] <fsphil> Gme o Trns
[09:30] <mfa298> Game of Tron
[09:31] <fsphil> INSERT COIN
[09:32] <nats`> my keyboard has a spurious at 13.8MHz
[09:32] <daveake> Enrage Of Moths
[09:32] <nats`> but when I say a spurious that's a trans continental emitter
[09:34] <amell> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7MPk8vZpbs&feature=youtu.be for those interested in the naming ceremony for the new aircraft carrier.
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[09:50] <jededu> ping daveake
[09:50] <daveake> pung
[09:50] <daveake> not chasing this one for you :)
[09:51] <jededu> daveake what is your android app called backtracker?
[09:51] <jededu> lol
[09:52] <daveake> Backcountry Navigator
[09:53] <daveake> Best to download the landing area before you go, so you can use it offline if there's no 3G
[09:53] <jededu> Ahh it maybe usefull when it lands up snowdon :)
[09:53] <jededu> thx
[09:55] <daveake> Suspect mapping will then be the least of your problems :)
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[09:57] <amell> if youre watching the aircraft carrier naming ceremony, theres a rumour that the F35 will fly over for the first time in the UK.
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[09:58] <jededu> Thx daveake will do off now
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[10:32] Nick change: Trieste_ -> Trieste
[10:48] Nick change: SA6BSS -> SA6BSS-Mike
[10:48] <SpeedEvil> Just had seven helicopters including a Chinook fly low overhead. Loud.
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[10:50] <fsphil> yea they're not going to sneak up in those things
[10:50] <fsphil> haven't seen one in a while
[10:52] <gonzo_> we get them weekly, as the para's training camp is close
[10:53] <fsphil> newbies
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[11:04] <craag> heh, daily here :) There's an old portico out front that they use as a marker
[11:08] <fsphil> the field next to my house used to get used as a landing spot all the time
[11:08] <fsphil> it's a homebase now, so not so much :)
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[11:46] <amell> 6 sats and a HDOP of 130 seems to be best i can get. Good enough.
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[12:21] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[12:29] <Laurenceb_> https://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/199735_trj001.gif
[12:43] <LZ1DEV> needs more trajectories
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[13:31] <Ian_> fsphil: probably drop into the car park from time to time for double sided sticky tape and string.
[13:33] <Ian_> amell: PU window frames/casements normally have a metal reinforcing within them, so proximity of GPS to casement with window open might still be a consideration.
[13:34] <Ian_> Best when testing ABS boxes to put a toasty in the oven to make the most of the time used.
[13:39] <amell> I was able to confirm my ABS box is good. microwaved at 1000W for 3 minutes. no heating.
[13:47] <mikestir-work> did you know that ice won't get hot in a microwave?
[13:48] <mikestir-work> it will melt, but only through conduction as molecules in liquid state on the surface do heat up
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[13:51] <Ian_> And the toastie . . . ?
[13:51] <Ian_> Delicious!
[13:53] <Maxell> LeoBodnar_: nice loop you have there. Based on predections or real data?
[13:53] <Maxell> aka "made up"? :P
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[13:54] <Maxell> LIES!!1
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[14:06] <jiffe98> yeah there are new points that popped up between where it lost contact for a while
[14:07] <UpuWork> real data via back log transmission in APRS comments
[14:07] <jiffe98> gotcha
[14:11] <daveake> LeoBodnar said it was all faked, via his set of Low Earth Orbit (LEO - geddit?) satellites
[14:13] <LZ1DEV> the FAKE-1 FAKE-2 FAKE-3 network of sats?
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[15:33] <Boelle_DK> anyone seen OZ1SKY arround lately? i have just been aware that he is the only dane that have actually let a HAB go over danish ground
[15:34] <DL7AD_mobile> As far as i know no one ever launched a balloon in denmark Bolle_DK
[15:35] <Boelle_DK> he did... apu just told me from his hab supply mail... ordered some gps modules and we came over this shit appling for a permit
[15:36] <Boelle_DK> here anything that goes higher than 100meters need a permit... fee for processing.: 100£ an hour
[15:38] <DL7AD_mobile> Krazy
[15:43] <Reb-SM0ULC> Boelle_DK: he was around last night
[15:43] <Boelle_DK> oki... will keep an eye out
[15:43] <Reb-SM0ULC> Boelle_DK: reminding me about thinking about put money into a diamond antenna...
[15:43] <UpuWork> they have DL7AD_mobile
[15:43] <Boelle_DK> DL7AD_mobile: yep... total bonkers...
[15:43] <UpuWork> Brian did it
[15:44] <UpuWork> Hi Bo
[15:44] <UpuWork> I'm Anthony
[15:44] <Boelle_DK> UpuWork: i know :-D
[15:44] <Boelle_DK> UpuWork: the server for brians site is there... but it just says access denied to anything...
[15:44] <UpuWork> Brian may be on later
[15:45] <Boelle_DK> but oh well
[15:45] <UpuWork> he does pop on and off occasionally
[15:45] <Boelle_DK> its just this fee to get a permit... 100£ an hour....
[15:45] <Boelle_DK> and they dont even have a form for it, so have to pick words carefull so it does not look like i'm a total idiot
[15:46] <Boelle_DK> it does sound like a fun hobby... its just the fee to get it legal... anything above 100meters need a permit... baaaaah
[15:47] <Boelle_DK> but how can it be done safe... i choose APRS for tracking... as it seem it has more coverage... at least in denmark there are a few repeaters and igates...
[15:47] <Boelle_DK> i plan to hammer one up at home just to expand the network
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[15:48] <Reb-SM0ULC> Boelle_DK: about 400 euro for a start in sweden.. Willkommen!!!
[15:48] <Boelle_DK> fy faen :-D
[15:48] <Reb-SM0ULC> typ
[15:48] <Boelle_DK> times 7.5 to get in DKK...
[15:49] <Boelle_DK> its crazy... i think in the uk its almost free
[15:49] <Boelle_DK> UpuWork: is this APRS import to habitat permanent or do i need to do it myself?
[15:50] <UpuWork> you need to ask us
[15:50] <UpuWork> and we can set it upo
[15:51] <Boelle_DK> oki... so i just need to tell what call sign? no problemo...
[15:51] <Boelle_DK> how are a launch planned in the server system? sure it must be told i have something up my sleave?
[15:51] <Boelle_DK> and next q.. how do i pick a launch site that is safe to use? need much space for it?
[15:52] <Boelle_DK> currently i have this in my thoughts: https://www.google.dk/maps/place/55%C2%B019'33.6%22N+10%C2%B026'06.0%22E/@55.3256023,10.435834,3229m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0
[15:52] <Boelle_DK> just a 15 min walk from home or i can drive there...
[15:52] <Boelle_DK> i live here: https://www.google.dk/maps/place/Sandk%C3%A6ret+1/@55.327065,10.438233,629m/data=!3m2!1e3!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x464d21245d4e7a2d:0x95b1bf3c3356eb30
[15:52] <Boelle_DK> there are some rail tracks in the way...
[15:53] <Boelle_DK> so have to walk down to nearest crossing and back again
[15:53] <SA6BSS-Mike> Reb-SM0ULC: its actually 500Eur just for applying, read up about it, new rules 2014, and its like 95% chance you get denied, but still 500E
[15:54] <Boelle_DK> dammm
[15:55] <Boelle_DK> 3728 dkk... a
[15:55] <LeoBodnar> it's a rare occasion wher UK laws are more sensible than the neighbours'
[15:55] <LeoBodnar> buy a ferry ticket and keep the change
[15:56] <Boelle_DK> LeoBodnar: absolute... you can add kit cars to the list... they are almost a nono here.... you have to crash test etc etc like a production car to get one on the road
[15:56] <Boelle_DK> even a kit car from the uk that allready have plates are a no no
[15:56] <Boelle_DK> even if it has a SVA
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[15:59] <Boelle_DK> anyway.... would not mind some pointers for a safe launch site..
[15:59] <Reb-SM0ULC> SA6BSS-Mike: ah, crap
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[16:00] <SA6BSS-Mike> amsat.se are applying and got a square 300km up the land where there is not mouch planes passing, there is like 95% for ok but still you have to get to that location
[16:00] <Reb-SM0ULC> SA6BSS-Mike: luckily for me there's Gröna Lund so I can go there and launch with all other kids loosing their balloons...
[16:00] <SA6BSS-Mike> hehe
[16:00] <Reb-SM0ULC> I think I saw at lest one when having lunch today.
[16:01] <Boelle_DK> Q... what does aircraft use to locate each other besides radar?
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[16:01] Nick change: gartt_ -> gartt
[16:03] <LeoBodnar> TCAS
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[16:08] <Boelle_DK> oki.... is it overkill to add that to a HAB? just for good messure
[16:09] <LeoBodnar> lol Boelle_DK
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[16:10] <F1VJQ> I see B-62 woke up again earlier today....
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[16:12] <Boelle_DK> dinner time
[16:15] <N2NXZ> I have a question regarding uBLOX MAX-7 Breakout With Quad-V Antenna for Arduino and NTX2.Maybe code of library issue.I get RTTY only repeating "Acquiring...*40A5" over and over.
[16:23] <mikestir-work> how long did you leave it?
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[16:30] <N2NXZ> At least an hour,even outside
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[16:32] <N2NXZ> Very new to this Arduino stuff,has to be something to do with the gps code?
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[16:34] <N2NXZ> Is there specific code for this GPS,or are there other ways to use it this way?I would like to sort out un needed work if there is a specific means to do this.
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[16:51] <Adam012> Hi all, Is anyone able to verify a flight document?
[16:53] <Adam012> Hmm, I think I may have picked 'dinner time' to ask. Bad move on my part. Maybe I'll pop back later when a few people are back for the evening chat?
[16:53] <adamgreig> need the document id
[16:53] <Adam012> Thank you! b180c4eeb0817ed74e2e8a44232694e3
[16:54] <adamgreig> approved Adam012
[16:54] <Adam012> Thanks very much, here's hoping for good weather!
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[18:32] <SA6BSS-Mike> Trying my tracker out with some different software, best so far is pAVAR7 with only 60mA from a singel AA, got over 22Hours/6600sequencie@50baud from Panasonic alkaline, the others is about 80-150mA
[18:33] <craag> Sounds like others aren't using PSM on the gps
[18:33] <SA6BSS-Mike> Will try get battery and Volt going on the telemetry
[18:33] <SA6BSS-Mike> looks taht way
[18:34] <craag> btw possible pico launch from basingstoke apres-bacon (~8am) sunday
[18:34] <craag> Relies on there being enough helium in the tank
[18:35] <fsphil> heading east?
[18:35] <craag> yeah, it'll be a bursty one
[18:36] <craag> So jsut -> Slough
[18:36] <craag> tracker test for next weekend
[18:36] <craag> darn stepup won't let max7 get a lock though, so I'm having to use 3x AAAs and an LDO
[18:38] <craag> latest prediction: http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=65ef737777fa53ba9e1f4d5c8f1a9897183168bc
[18:39] <craag> not much chance of signal up your way fsphil, but I'll be launching ~ 50 meters from the websdr ;)
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[18:43] <mikestir> which stepup is it craag?
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[19:00] <Boelle_DK> Q: how are a lunch planned in the "system", one does simply not let go right?
[19:01] <tweetBot1> @AMSAT_UK: International #Space Colloquium Guildford July 26-27 open to all http://t.co/Fc8nceDQ41 #amsat #hamradio #hamr #cubesat #ukhas
[19:01] <craag> mikestir: It was one of the polulu little boards
[19:01] <craag> cheap and tiny thing
[19:01] <craag> should have thought about it tbh
[19:02] <mikestir> interesting that it caused a problem. I was a bit concerned about the boost on mine but it seems fine
[19:02] <craag> with step-up and one cell: 15 minutes to get time, no lock after 1 hour
[19:03] <craag> step-up and two cells: 5 minutes to get time, no lock
[19:03] <craag> ldo and 3 cells: 45 seconds to get time, 2 minutes to get lock
[19:04] <craag> Voltage verified as 3.3V, scope is at work though :/
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[19:04] <mikestir> you could put an ldo between the switcher and the gps maybe
[19:04] <mikestir> to clean it up a bit
[19:05] <craag> hmm good point
[19:05] <craag> got to pack the rest of the stuff for vhf nfd now though, so no time!
[19:05] <mattbrejza> im blaming the max7 :P
[19:05] <mattbrejza> ive had a max6 get lock no problems with a horrible switcher
[19:06] <craag> I'll try that for next week though, thanks mikestir
[19:06] <mikestir> I'm doing an ssdv flight next week, weather permitting
[19:07] <Boelle_DK> :-D
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[19:08] <craag> cool! pi-in-the-sky or your own thing?
[19:08] <mikestir> own thing lashed up out of stuff I had lying around
[19:08] <craag> :)
[19:08] <mikestir> it's basically an rfm22b/avr based tracker on a header board
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[19:09] <mikestir> I've also put a compass board on it to try to record direction data alongside the video
[19:09] <mikestir> there's still quite a bit of software to do though!
[19:09] <mattbrejza> anyone bored of rtty and want to try my error correction binary thing instead?
[19:09] <craag> for ssdv - absolutely
[19:09] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[19:10] <Boelle_DK> me still trying to figure how you plan a launch.... besides building and prepping at home
[19:10] <mikestir> mattbrejza: I was thinking about that spread spectrum fsk idea we discussed. Once this school launch is out of the way I may do some experiments with that on one of my pico trackers
[19:11] <mikestir> the hardware could certainly do it
[19:11] <mattbrejza> this with a dongle for rx?
[19:11] <mattbrejza> for the fm rx?
[19:11] <Boelle_DK> my thought was that you tell the servers that you plan to launch at that day and time... but am i wrong?
[19:11] <mattbrejza> *of
[19:11] <mikestir> fm rx
[19:11] <mattbrejza> )or
[19:11] <mattbrejza> sigh
[19:11] <mikestir> so spread it to fill the bandwidth of a normal fm channel
[19:11] <mattbrejza> will be good to see how it goes :)
[19:12] <Lunar_Lander> Boelle_DK, you file a flight thingy with habhub, so that the system knows what your telemetry format is, someone approves it for a launch day you designate and then people just have to tune in
[19:12] <mattbrejza> so filling the BB bandwidth? as it is my afsk should fill most of the IF
[19:12] <Boelle_DK> Lunar_Lander: oki doki... so i was not total wrong....
[19:13] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[19:13] <Boelle_DK> hmm.... have an 2.0ghz macbook i dont know what to do with.... and have a hab amp...
[19:13] <mikestir> mattbrejza: afsk is achieving the same sort of goal, but I think if you used a pn sequence instead of a tone you would get better performance
[19:14] <Boelle_DK> just need the yagi and software....
[19:14] <Boelle_DK> and some mobile internet
[19:14] <mattbrejza> i thought dsss only gives an improvement against interfers?
[19:14] <Boelle_DK> a phone can make do for that
[19:15] <mikestir> no I think it should give some benefit over noise too, because the chipping sequence has high autocorrelation, but the noise has none
[19:15] <Boelle_DK> what is the most recommended dongle for tracking/listning these days? have it changed much the last year?
[19:15] <mikestir> back in a bit
[19:16] <mattbrejza> ok
[19:16] <mattbrejza> back to my orginal point though, the binary/turbo thing is seperate to modulation ;)
[19:19] <craag> mattbrejza: implement jpeg data in it? ;)
[19:19] <amell> chrisstubbs: helium, chute and everything ready. just waiting for wind to go south now :)
[19:19] <mattbrejza> well there is no reason why the 'payload' couldnt be a ssdv frame
[19:19] <chrisstubbs> amell cool :D
[19:20] <craag> my tracker has a 15.5cm testing antenna on it..... what was I smoking????!
[19:21] <amell> sat and sun seem to go north, im thinking it may be at least tuesday to turn south
[19:21] <mattbrejza> they should really sort out the dealers at the back of zep l3
[19:21] <amell> craag: Ganja?
[19:22] Action: amell thinks Processing is crap
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[19:25] <amell> Are all arduinos little endian?
[19:25] <LeoBodnar> pn just achieves a DSS but does not improve snr vs a continuous tone
[19:30] <fsphil> atmega's are little endian, for the few 16-bit operations they do
[19:30] <amell> trying to figure out how to pass a message buffer containing ints and floats in one string between arduinos.
[19:31] <Boelle_DK> Q again... what is the most recommended dongle for listning these days?
[19:31] <fsphil> best to send and receive your message byte at a time
[19:31] <LeoBodnar> FCDP+
[19:32] <amell> fsphil: the radio library i am using, it would be easier to pop it across in one shot
[19:32] <fsphil> oh yes send it in one go
[19:32] <fsphil> but I mean when reading and writing to your buffer you read it byte at a time
[19:32] <LeoBodnar> float on 8 bit system is heresy
[19:32] <amell> radio.send((byte)GATEWAY_ID, (const void *)&msgBuf[0], (byte)sizeof(msgBuf), requestACK);
[19:32] <fsphil> uint16_t bigvar = buffer[0] | buffer[1] << 8;
[19:33] <fsphil> something like that
[19:33] <amell> yes, but im not clear how you do mixed ints and floats in Processing. If this was C i would just typdef struct
[19:33] <fsphil> you don't mix them
[19:33] <fsphil> and yea, try to avoid floats :)
[19:34] <amell> latitude and longitude are floats :)
[19:34] <LeoBodnar> no they are ints
[19:34] <LeoBodnar> as coming from UBLOX
[19:34] <fsphil> multiply them by 10000 and you have a fixed-point value
[19:34] <amell> oh, i see what you mean, i could cast them to int.
[19:34] <fsphil> to 5 decimal places
[19:34] <fsphil> er, 4 dp
[19:34] Action: fsphil fails at counting
[19:35] <LeoBodnar> 4dp is 10m accuracy
[19:35] <fsphil> 54.123 becomes 541230
[19:35] <fsphil> easy peasy
[19:37] <amell> ok. TinyGPS++ returns floats
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[19:38] <fsphil> if you use ubx it returns coordinates as fixed-point values with 7 dp
[19:38] <fsphil> which is slightly overkill for most users
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[19:38] <LeoBodnar> why not send data as it comes from GPS?
[19:38] <LeoBodnar> it's only four bytes long
[19:38] <LeoBodnar> and has 1cm precision
[19:38] <amell> well i used a library, i was avoiding looking at the GPS as it returns a lot.
[19:38] <fsphil> yea if sending it as binary no point modifying it
[19:38] <LeoBodnar> good call
[19:39] <amell> no doubt you will strike me down as a luddite
[19:39] <fsphil> get'em!
[19:40] <LeoBodnar> if you divide GPS values by 1000 you will get int without venturing into floats
[19:40] <LeoBodnar> 541230 int that is
[19:40] <amell> ok. lets try that.
[19:40] <LeoBodnar> but it's a signed 4 bytes int
[19:40] Action: amell opens window and dangles breadboard out on a piece of string
[19:41] <LeoBodnar> whatever it is called in C
[19:41] <fsphil> int32_t
[19:41] <LeoBodnar> long int perhaps
[19:41] <fsphil> stdint.ftw
[19:43] <mikestir> you shouldn't really have any trouble exchanging a c struct in one go between two systems of the same endianness. the word packing rules are fairly clear as long as you stay away from bit fields
[19:43] <amell> mikestir: but you cant do c struct in Processing, can you?
[19:43] <mikestir> no idea. I thought you were exchanging it between two arduinos?
[19:44] <amell> yes, and the arduinos are coded with Processing not C.
[19:44] <mikestir> oh right
[19:44] <mikestir> I don't even know what processing is (beyond having heard of it)
[19:44] <amell> its the arduino IDE language. its a bastard version of C.
[19:44] <mikestir> oh right. you mean C++
[19:44] <amell> no not that
[19:44] <amell> Its called Processing"
[19:45] <amell> I have no idea why
[19:45] <mikestir> since the arduino IDE just runs everything through g++
[19:45] Action: amell wishes he hadnt forgotten his arm assembly.
[19:46] <mikestir> oh I see, it's a language separate from the stuff you program the actual arduino in
[19:46] <mikestir> honestly I swear arduino is more complicated than just spending an evening learning about the chip
[19:46] <amell> Im beginning to think that
[19:49] <mikestir> can't you just use python instead?
[19:50] <mikestir> for the not-arduino bit
[19:50] <amell> it will be quicker to stick with this method
[19:50] <amell> its all arduino.
[19:51] <mikestir> so if it's all arduino why is it an issue? It's a packetised radio library right? For RFM12 or something? Is it really that crap that you can't trivially have a buffer from one node turn up on the other?
[19:52] <amell> RFM69 radiohead.
[19:52] <amell> Im just trying to figure out how to assemble the buffer in this language.
[19:54] <LeoBodnar> George Orwell predicted Arduino
[19:57] <amell> i think i might just scrap this crap and do the habduino way.
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[20:00] <mikestir> is there not a receive equivalent to this bit? -> radio.send((byte)GATEWAY_ID, (const void *)&msgBuf[0], (byte)sizeof(msgBuf), requestACK);
[20:01] <amell> yes but i need to assemble msgBuf. that is my issue.
[20:02] <mikestir> just declare something like struct stuff { uint32_t thing1; uint16_t thing2; float expensivefloat1; } structbuf
[20:02] <amell> you cant do structs in Processing& as far as i know
[20:02] <mikestir> and do radio.send(GATEWAY_ID, (const void *)&structbuf, sizeof(structbuf), requestACK)
[20:02] <mikestir> that bit just looks to me like the stuff that goes through g++
[20:02] <mikestir> then do the same thing on the receive side, checking that you received the expect number of bytes
[20:02] <amell> thats what i was saying earlier, if it was C, yes, i just typedef struct
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[20:06] <mikestir> I was under the impression that arduino was just a set of bloated C++ libraries and typedefs to hide the hardware from you, and that it was otherwise just run through gcc
[20:06] <mikestir> in which case any legal C should work fine
[20:07] <mattbrejza> yea tarduino just uses avr-gcc like anything else
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[20:11] <Boelle_DK> Q: hos is in charge of the dl-fldigi software on the site? i wonder if control of a pan/tilt could be melted in at some point?
[20:12] <amell> habrotate will do that for you
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[20:14] <Boelle_DK> amell: yep... had it in thoughts
[20:15] <Boelle_DK> i was just thinking if a shiny all in one would be pipe dreams or possible at some point.... mind you i cant program much
[20:18] <Boelle_DK> but well.. i have to get started somewhere... i have the habamp from last year... next up must be an dongle... which one is the best ones these days?
[20:19] <Lunar_Lander> isn't it just any dongle with an Rafael R820T or so?
[20:19] <amell> The rampant rabbit one is supposed to be good.
[20:19] <Boelle_DK> any links ?
[20:20] <mattbrejza> from experience amell ?
[20:20] <amell> no personal experience, no
[20:20] <bertrik> I like the R820T mini
[20:21] <Lunar_Lander> something along this lines maybe? http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-USB-DVB-T-RTL-SDR-Realtek-RTL2832U-R820T-DVB-T-Tuner-Receiver-MCX-Input-/181350890744?pt=US_Video_Capture_TV_Tuner_Cards&hash=item2a395afcf8
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[20:25] <Boelle_DK> not bad... searching for one with SMA so its more direct connect to habamp
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[20:31] <mikestir> you can get them supplied with an SMA pigtail
[20:31] <mikestir> or buy a funcube dongle
[20:33] <Boelle_DK> yep... it was a pigtail i was after initial...
[20:34] <Boelle_DK> want to give this listning a go first...
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[20:34] <Boelle_DK> permit to launch comes with hefty price tag.... 100£ an hour
[20:35] <Boelle_DK> was the ras pi to underpowered to do decode? i have thought on building dl-fldigi from the source code
[20:36] <Boelle_DK> but do also have an macbook that is just collecting dust
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[20:38] <Adam012> Well, we were going to launch tomorrow but the NOTAM has not come through. Is there anyway to get it issued by ATC over the weekend or have we just got to scrub until next weekend?
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[20:40] <tweetBot1> @AMSAT_UK: EARS Balloon Flight and VR2Space at International Space Colloquium Holiday Inn, Guildford Saturday July 26 http://t.co/Fc8nceDQ41 #ukhas
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[20:40] <daveake> Adam012 I think you're probably stuffed then
[20:41] <daveake> Not heard of them being issued at weekends before
[20:41] <Adam012> Damn, thought so. I'll send out the texts tonight and head down to the school tomorrow to turn away anyone who comes down to spectate, It's a shame, I reminded David on Monday.
[20:42] <Adam012> I knew I should have reminded him again on Thursday.
[20:42] <daveake> I think Steve got one on launch day, but that was midweek
[20:42] <daveake> I think David was out today - he did mine (for Monday) yesterday
[20:43] <Adam012> They've always been 'fashionably late' but this one is a no-go as office hours are 9-5ish
[20:43] <daveake> I do reminders/confirmations on the Wednesday or Thursday for a weekend flight
[20:43] <Boelle_DK> is this done fine: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Newsky-TV28T-RTL2832U-R820T-RTL-SDR-USB-Stick-BNC-pigtail-/191222887233?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2c85c5b341
[20:43] <mikestir> we've got an exemption for one of two sites for next week, with the requirement to ring up and have the actual notam issued the day before. that seemed a bit unusual
[20:43] <Adam012> How are you doing Dave, did you scrub the launches because of the rain or the jet stream?
[20:44] <daveake> Well neither were ideal
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[20:44] <daveake> But no, was something else
[20:44] <Adam012> What were you planning to test?
[20:45] <daveake> Pi board and one of Upu's latest trackers
[20:45] <Adam012> Ah
[20:45] <daveake> Hoping to do both on Monday
[20:45] <daveake> Predictions much better then, and winds a bit lower
[20:45] <Adam012> Upu must have those trackers down to less than 20g by now?
[20:45] <Upu> huh ?
[20:45] <Upu> try 1/10th that
[20:45] <Adam012> Wow
[20:45] <Upu> well 4g
[20:46] <Upu> this one isn't designed for wieght
[20:46] <Adam012> The wonders of chip scale antennae and custom made pcb
[20:46] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/YaourLg.jpg
[20:46] <mikestir> antenna? bits of wire ftw
[20:47] <Adam012> What radio module do you use?
[20:47] <mikestir> how come you used a module Upu?
[20:48] <Upu> testing MTX2
[20:48] <Upu> also more robust
[20:48] <Upu> easier to solder
[20:48] <Upu> etc
[20:48] <Upu> there is a DAC on there so I can play around
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[20:50] <Boelle_DK> Upu damm nice design :-D
[20:51] <Upu> thanks Boelle_DK
[20:51] <Adam012> What happended to the little unstable radios that everyone was using RMF22?
[20:51] <Upu> yeah
[20:51] <Upu> stopped using them
[20:51] <Adam012> They seemed like a coding nightmare.
[20:51] <Boelle_DK> Upu so what MCU on this one?
[20:51] <Adam012> Working around all of their 'features'
[20:52] <mikestir> I'll be flying at least one this week, although I'm considering sending up one of my pico trackers as a backup just in case
[20:52] <Boelle_DK> if i get this damm permit i might use this.... if it comes up for sale that is
[20:52] <Upu> atmega328
[20:53] <Adam012> Do the trackers in the photo run off a single AA and if so, how long do they transmit for?
[20:54] <Upu> yes and probably > 24 hours
[20:54] <mikestir> Adam012: they don't really have any major problems apart from their cheap components and drifty crystal
[20:54] <Boelle_DK> more than enought for me... stupid Q..... can this on send back photos?
[20:54] <mikestir> they're quite well behaved from a programming point of view
[20:54] <Boelle_DK> or call it a newbie q
[20:54] <Adam012> What about them turning off when warming up from cold temps?
[20:54] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/x4qTBSR.jpg
[20:54] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/BYA32h1.jpg
[20:55] <mikestir> I never saw that - I suspect possibly condensation as I did observe that in the freezer
[20:55] <Upu> afk
[20:55] <mikestir> so I used spray lacquer to protect them from moisture and they seemed ok. the tracker firmware did constant polling to check that it hadn't reset, but it never did
[20:58] <Boelle_DK> mikestir: how are pics normal transmitted back during flight... i know its called ssdv ? but how is that done on arduino if at all possible
[20:58] <mikestir> fsphil did it on an avr using a serial jpeg camera, but these are expensive and hard to find
[20:58] <mikestir> most people use a pi
[20:59] <fsphil> adafruit have a relativly cheap one these days
[20:59] <fsphil> +e
[21:00] <Boelle_DK> only downside with the pi would be its a bit more power hungry... and if doing more than up and down you would run out of power...
[21:00] <daveake> I've done some floaters with the Pi
[21:01] <daveake> 20+ hours on 4 AAs
[21:01] <Boelle_DK> :-D
[21:01] <fsphil> http://www.adafruit.com/products/397
[21:01] <daveake> So power goes about the same time that we run out of listeners anyway
[21:01] <Boelle_DK> no problems then... and could do attach some small pv panels :-D
[21:02] <fsphil> Pi floaters are not too bad
[21:02] <fsphil> I was lucky with my last one, it stayed in range of me for the entire flight
[21:02] <daveake> :)
[21:02] <fsphil> very unusual
[21:02] <Boelle_DK> hehe---- nope i have seen the map last night... loads of listners in the uk...
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[21:02] <Boelle_DK> but in europe not many...
[21:03] <fsphil> a high altitude floater at the moment seems to be heading to the atlantic
[21:03] <daveake> yup
[21:03] <daveake> just been running some predictions
[21:03] <daveake> Wondering about trying (again) to send one your way
[21:03] <Boelle_DK> towards europe?
[21:03] <daveake> Would need to be 0.75m/s ascent to make it recoverable
[21:03] <daveake> no fsphil's way
[21:04] <Boelle_DK> ok
[21:04] <fsphil> I'm in the opposite direction to europe from daveake's point of view
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[21:05] <Boelle_DK> me asked seller of a dongle if he could replace the BNC pigtail for a SMA one...i just need to solder on the SMA's to the habamp... reload mac with OS to clear out any odd'ies etc
[21:06] <Boelle_DK> and get a good yagi...
[21:06] <Boelle_DK> mobile internet no issue...
[21:10] <fsphil> tonight would've been good for that daveake
[21:10] <daveake> :(
[21:10] <fsphil> maybe a bit too far south
[21:10] <daveake> yeah that's the general issue
[21:11] <daveake> have to send it up very slowly so it turns further north
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[21:13] <Boelle_DK> have a q about yagi, would this be any good: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yagi-antenna-ham-amateur-435-MHZ-70cm-4-elements-high-gain-430-440-mhz-/291176137915?pt=UK_Mobile_Phones_Communication_Radio_Antennas&hash=item43cb7344bb
[21:14] <daveake> good for what?
[21:14] <fsphil> "Feel fre to ask a question"
[21:15] <Boelle_DK> hab tracking/listning
[21:15] <daveake> For a fixed installation you'd be better off with a colinear than a low gain yagi like that
[21:15] <Boelle_DK> not fixed :-D
[21:15] <daveake> For chasing, it's the right sort of size, but looks flimsy
[21:15] <daveake> fixed as in bolted to the ground
[21:16] <Boelle_DK> nope... chasing mobile use...
[21:16] <daveake> might be ok but looks flimsy
[21:16] <Boelle_DK> live in rented flat no antenna's allowed
[21:16] <craag> mikestir: I just fitted step-up then LDO, and it takes a while, but gets a lock! Thanks! :)
[21:16] <Boelle_DK> and to many buildings near by anyway
[21:17] <craag> weight--
[21:17] <mikestir> nice one
[21:18] <craag> downside is that I'll now need to drive further for recovery
[21:18] <craag> I'll send you the fuel bill ;)
[21:18] <mikestir> send it to pololu
[21:19] <mikestir> I thought this was just an up/down? are you going to float it now?
[21:19] <craag> just up/down
[21:19] <craag> but less weight means more altitude
[21:20] <craag> more altitude means more time in the air
[21:20] <craag> so the wind will take it further
[21:20] <mikestir> true. what's the updated prediction?
[21:20] <fsphil> fly a teddybear to weight it down
[21:20] <craag> http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=65ef737777fa53ba9e1f4d5c8f1a9897183168bc
[21:21] <mikestir> fly some extra batteries to weight it down
[21:21] <mikestir> oh wait...
[21:21] <craag> haha
[21:21] <craag> :P
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[21:22] <craag> not really that far. Anyway back to packing the car, thanks for the idea again.
[21:22] <mikestir> np. will listen out for you on 2m over the weekend, although I don't have a horizontal antenna
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[21:32] <amell> wife just asked me why i have something dangling out the window on a piece of string.
[21:32] <fsphil> doesn't everyone do that?
[21:32] <amell> apparently not
[21:33] <Reb-SM0ULC> amell: did she ask what it was?
[21:33] <amell> $$POO1,50,21:33:31,449585343,-509222799,10622,0,6,00,0,*F69B
[21:34] <amell> those GPS numbers look right?
[21:35] <fsphil> fixed 7dp?
[21:35] <fsphil> that would appear to be in the middle of the north atlantic
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[21:49] <fsphil> apparently much of wales has yet to discover electric lighting: http://www.betaarchive.com/imageupload/2012-07/1343165234.or.15970.jpg
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[21:54] <Kickball> heyhey
[21:54] <Kickball> *Hey
[21:55] <Kickball> Anyone there?
[21:55] <mikestir> hi
[21:55] <Kickball> Hey.
[21:55] <mikestir> fsphil: I think much of wales has yet to discover having people there
[21:55] <fsphil> it's friday night, we're all out doing interseting thin... oh wait
[21:55] <fsphil> interesting*
[21:55] <daveake> The sheep have discovered people
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[21:55] <Kickball> Can you point me in the right direction for looking at legalities of launching a HAB in the UK?
[21:55] <Kickball> Please.
[21:56] <fsphil> hah
[21:56] <Kickball> ...
[21:56] <fsphil> that actually worked
[21:56] <daveake> Blimey. Even the bot has nowhere else to go
[21:56] <Kickball> I feel stupid now. Thanks :)
[21:56] <fsphil> lol np
[21:56] <Kickball> Wait is that dave akerman?
[21:56] Action: daveake hides
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[21:57] <fsphil> one of them
[21:57] <fsphil> he's everywhere so we figure there is more than one
[22:02] <Kickball> alright :)
[22:07] <LeoBodnar> is he omnipresent?
[22:08] <Kickball> Whats an OS map? An operating system map?
[22:08] <amell> ordnance survey
[22:08] <LeoBodnar> == explosive inventory
[22:08] <fsphil> hah
[22:08] <fsphil> and on that bombshell
[22:09] <fsphil> "The agency's name indicates its original military purpose (see ordnance and surveying): mapping Scotland in the wake of the Jacobite rebellion in 1745"
[22:10] <amell> does anyone have upus max7q breakout board? i want to know what the TP pin does. i cant see any docs
[22:10] <fsphil> timepulse?
[22:10] <amell> whats that for?
[22:11] <daveake> pulsing
[22:11] <Boelle_DK> amell: it sends a 1hz signal out
[22:11] <LeoBodnar> it connects to the blue wire
[22:11] <daveake> on a timed basis
[22:11] <daveake> don't cut it
[22:11] <fsphil> it's very accurate if the gps is getting a good signal
[22:11] <amell> well its not connected to anything as i cant find a use for it
[22:11] <Boelle_DK> there are docs... let me find link
[22:11] <fsphil> my lightning detector uses it to time when a signal arrives
[22:12] <Boelle_DK> http://www.u-blox.com/en/gps-modules/pvt-modules/max-7.html
[22:12] <amell> im only using tx,rx,gnd & vcc
[22:12] <Boelle_DK> amell: that is also enough
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[22:15] <Boelle_DK> Q about building antenna,..http://users.belgacom.net/hamradio/schemas/yagi_uhf_antenna.htm
[22:16] <Boelle_DK> is it only the one element that the ant wire is connected to that has to be isolated?
[22:17] <Boelle_DK> ie dipole
[22:19] <mikestir> if the design has the parasitic elements insulated from the boom then you should do that too
[22:19] <mikestir> it is possible to design for an uninsulated boom, but it affects the dimensions
[22:20] <Boelle_DK> oki... i just wanted to check the linked design for sanity
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[22:42] <Kickball> How would I go about creating an OS map to the detail the CAA require?
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[22:46] <fsphil> live image from the ISS now looks very like a typical HAB photo
[22:46] <fsphil> apart from the bits of spacecraft visible to the side
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[22:47] <fsphil> the OS provide an online map iirc
[22:48] <fsphil> just set to the scale the CAA ask for, and centre it over where you're launching from
[22:48] <fsphil> if it's tricky getting it you can use a google map screenshot, but it must be at the scale they request
[22:48] <fsphil> with the launch site clearly indicated
[22:48] <Kickball> Ok
[22:49] <Kickball> Thanks
[22:50] <Kickball> 'The CAA will send you a permit document if you have been granted permission to launch - it normally contains some form of co-ordination instructions with a local airfield that need to be followed before launch.'
[22:50] <Kickball> What sort of instructions are contained?
[22:50] <Kickball> Would we need to visit that airfield?
[22:50] <fsphil> usually just a phone number you should call an hour before launching
[22:51] <fsphil> some sites might have additional restrictions for launch (wind direction, time of day etc)
[22:51] <Kickball> Oh alright, lol
[22:51] <Kickball> Ah
[22:51] <Kickball> hanks
[23:07] <Kickball> Other than use of a standard balloon and parachute what else will the permit require you to do?
[23:08] <fsphil> the document will usually only ever ask you to phone the airfield
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[23:08] <Kickball> Alright, thanks.
[23:08] <fsphil> sometimes not even that, if you're far enough away from them
[23:09] <Kickball> fsphil: Would you mind taking a look at the legal / concerns section of the proposal please? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qeS7J2i9MCfeCLVDD1z9B5Cd68E1fgFMqdNgwVnKtmg/edit?usp=sharing
[23:09] <Kickball> I am quite close to two air bases so I assume I will need a call.
[23:11] <fsphil> if they're busy you may not get permission to launch
[23:11] <Kickball> So apply more than 28 days.
[23:11] <Kickball> before*
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[23:12] <fsphil> the CAAs sense of time is unpredictable
[23:12] <Kickball> Would 45 days almost guarantee that we get 'clearance'?
[23:12] <fsphil> no
[23:12] <fsphil> if it's a busy airfield you may never get permission
[23:12] <Kickball> Ok
[23:12] <Kickball> So if we get rejected we can drive to a different airfield?
[23:12] Action: amell is getting pissed off with UBX
[23:13] <fsphil> well you'd ideally not want to be near an airfield
[23:13] <Kickball> or apply with a launch location closer to a different airfield.
[23:13] <fsphil> or under an approach to one
[23:13] <Kickball> What I mean is in a different air field's 'jurisdiction'.
[23:13] Nick change: Willdude123 -> Flerb
[23:14] <fsphil> you really won't know until you try
[23:15] <fsphil> the 28 days thing is pretty fuzzy.
[23:15] <fsphil> I've seen my requests take many months to get processed
[23:16] <daveake> could be 28 days or months or hours
[23:16] <fsphil> my last summer launch took place in December
[23:16] <fsphil> (not kidding)
[23:18] <Kickball> Damn.
[23:18] <Kickball> What sort of time frame are you allowed to apply for?
[23:19] <fsphil> a few weeks. they get grumpy if it's longer than a month
[23:19] <Kickball> so we could do 4 weekends in a row?
[23:19] <fsphil> try for a month first, but specify weekends only if you don't intend to launch mid-week
[23:19] <Kickball> Or would 3 be the max?
[23:19] <fsphil> try for the 4
[23:19] <fsphil> they may change the dates anyway
[23:20] <Kickball> so they will say, no you can launch on the dates we choose?
[23:20] <Kickball> we being the CAA
[23:21] <daveake> For something like that, apply for a weekend, then if you can't fly ask for a backup weekend
[23:21] <fsphil> in my case they just send me permission with slightly different dates to what I asked for
[23:21] <daveake> So apply 28 days say before the first one, then approx the Wednesday before the flight confirm or delay
[23:22] <fsphil> it's normal not to hear back from them until the last minute
[23:23] <fsphil> but always worth a friendly reminder a week and/or a few days before
[23:23] <mikestir> he's given us a window of a week and half, weekdays only
[23:24] <fsphil> I managed a full month once, but he dragged that out for ages
[23:28] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn4YVYdp8lE - pulsejet keychain
[23:30] <Kickball> Holy shit
[23:30] <Kickball> It all caught fire
[23:30] <Kickball> Then he just does it again...
[23:31] <fsphil> that noise!
[23:31] <Kickball> http://www.reddit.com/r/raspberry_pi/comments/29tzj2/raspiado_the_usb_hub_that_fits_your_raspberry_pi/
[23:31] <Kickball> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/10la/raspiado-the-usb-hub-that-fits-your-raspberry-pi
[23:31] <Kickball> Have you seen the new R-Pi USB hub? I don't think it would be too useful for HABs, but mabey for side projects.
[23:33] <SpeedEvil> It's acetylene based
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> So it's going to get rather hot
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[23:51] <amell> how accurate do you think a 9 satellite fix should be? it seems to be about 10-12m away from where i actually am.
[00:00] --- Sat Jul 5 2014