highaltitude.log.20140630

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[00:11] <Laurenceb__> i think it died overnight
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[00:20] <Maxell> yeah unless there is some real funky obstructions for the igates
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[00:25] <DL7AD_> it flies pretty high, so 400km can be reached easily. i hope they will catch it in ruzayevka and samara.
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[06:18] <LeoBodnar> D-5 payload train launch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgGpvNq8xc8
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[06:24] <UpuWork> wow
[06:25] <UpuWork> das payloads
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[06:26] <arko> das UBER payload ist gut!
[06:27] Action: arko needs to brush up on his german as he's going to germany/austria in 7 weeks
[06:43] <arko> http://imgur.com/G3H4aBh haha
[06:45] <LeoBodnar> wow, so QFH
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[08:09] <Maxell> LeoBodnar: I hear the stream of aprs packets :P
[08:11] <Maxell> arko: nice setup however might not pass Dutch fieldday rules :P
[08:11] <Maxell> well it is portable tho
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[08:34] <gonzo_> I watched D5, and lost count of the payloads
[08:35] <gonzo_> didn't hear how it went. Did they recover it?
[08:41] <malgar> gonzo_: yes, it seems they found it on a tree
[08:41] <daveake> Any news on the horizon flight?
[08:42] <malgar> daveake: what is that?
[08:42] <gonzo_> I doubt there could have been any other ending, with that length of train.
[08:42] <daveake> AMSTG launched Sat
[08:42] <gonzo_> that looked like it was going to land within a few miles for my home town. the 3rd to do so in a few months
[08:42] <Steve_G0TDJ_> daveake: Didn't quite match Felix's Alt, Next attempt Next Sat.
[08:43] <gonzo_> could a few not come thios way??
[08:43] <daveake> ok. Receovered?
[08:43] <Steve_G0TDJ_> I believe so
[08:43] <gonzo_> it looked like the payload failed at alt
[08:43] <daveake> I thought I saw a tweet saying they couldn't get a signal after it landed
[08:44] <Steve_G0TDJ_> I didn't see that one Dave. I'll take a look.
[08:44] <Steve_G0TDJ_> "Armstrong reached 38915m (just 130m short of Felix Baumgartner). Hadfield launches next weekend for our 2nd attempt!"
[08:45] <Steve_G0TDJ_> daveake: No tweets about recovery as far as I can see
[08:45] <daveake> Yeah saw that, but either someone else tweeted the "can't find it" one, or they deleted it, or I'm going a bit nuts in my old age
[08:45] <daveake> or all 3
[08:45] <Steve_G0TDJ_> LOL
[08:45] <Steve_G0TDJ_> Did you catch any of the NASA launch?
[08:46] <daveake> No was out
[08:46] <daveake> Saw the launch bit after
[08:47] <Steve_G0TDJ_> OK - Quite interesting. Gotta wait until next year for the next one!
[08:47] <daveake> They need tips from Leo on how to launch more often :p
[08:48] <Steve_G0TDJ_> He da man! :D
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[08:52] <Steve_G0TDJ_> daveake: Quick question, do you think an NTX2 would be able to send two signals under interrupts, ie. RTTY and CW?
[08:54] <Darkside> the problm with CW on the NTX2 is the drift on key-up
[08:54] <UpuWork> you mean switching frequencies ?
[08:54] <Steve_G0TDJ_> Yes
[08:55] <UpuWork> not tested but RMX suggest 50ms between switching
[08:55] <LeoBodnar> short the output with 50R load and RF switch
[08:55] <Steve_G0TDJ_> Might be better to do a seperate Tx on the same freq. then
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[09:00] <astrobiologist> what is the weblink for this IRC please? the port seems to be blocked where I am
[09:00] <Steve_G0TDJ_> http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=highaltitude
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[09:02] <astrobiologist_> thanks Steve_G0TDJ
[09:02] <Steve_G0TDJ_> My pleasure
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[09:02] <Steve_G0TDJ_> Thanks for your comments guys, planning my next firmware.
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[09:09] <daveake> Sorry was on phone; yeah 2 NTX2s would be easy
[09:09] <daveake> Easy to do that from an AVR or PIC
[09:09] <daveake> Not so easy from a Pi
[09:10] <UpuWork> Easy from a Pi just solder an promini to it
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[09:10] <Steve_G0TDJ_> daveake: I meant with a single NTX but I've chenged my mind now :-)
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[09:10] <Steve_G0TDJ_> Changed even....
[09:12] <mfa298> certainly doable from the Pi, I've had rtty and Domino going from the Pi and I'm only using the UART for the GPS and the SPI interface is still free (could add a couple of RFM69's on there and it looks like you can do rtty with them)
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[09:13] <daveake> When I did 2 600 baud channels from a Pi I used an Arduino Mini Pro as a demux
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[09:19] <mfa298> I need to do some more playing with the RFM69 on the Pi and see how well it can do rtty - I had it sending the "RTTY TEST BEACON" from a python script and it mostly decoded.
[09:20] <mfa298> if it can be made to work that could make for an interesting Pi based alternative
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[09:37] <gonzo_> python for sending rtty really sounds wrong to me
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[09:37] <Darkside> haha
[09:37] <Darkside> yes
[09:38] <Darkside> gonzo_: bcause you'r thinking python os doing the timing, right?
[09:38] <Darkside> oh i guss in mfa298's case it might be
[09:38] <mfa298> in that case it was (I was flipping the F_LSB register)
[09:38] <Darkside> ouch
[09:38] <Darkside> no guarantee of real-time accuracy
[09:38] <mfa298> although that was only a test to see if the concept was sound
[09:39] <mfa298> it actually worked a lot better than I was expecting
[09:39] <gonzo_> it's really that an interoretes script language in flight hardware feels the wrong place to be starting
[09:40] <mfa298> For something I'd trust to work it would be C/C++ with treads running with a different scheduler (RT/FIFO) (which is how I've done Pi based rtty and dominoEX)
[09:41] <gonzo_> that sounds better
[09:41] <gonzo_> but I see this sort of thing all the time at work. I think it's a case of 'when all you have is a hammer, everything around you looks like nails'
[09:41] <mfa298> the python test I was expecting something that sounded a bit like rtty but not to decode that well. When I got most of the sentence I was pretty shocked (I think it got everything except the spaces)
[09:42] <gonzo_> I bet]
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[10:00] <namor> hello. does somebody know, if Radiometrix NTX2 can be used license free in switzerland?
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[10:04] <mfa298> namor: I'm pretty sure the ISM allocation is EU wide but you might need to check power levels and whether it's allowed airborne as that could vary between contries
[10:06] <namor> ok. thanks a lot.
[10:07] <malgar> mfa298: and .ch is not EU
[10:07] <gonzo_> I was just thinking that
[10:08] <namor> and did i get it right? we could use that frequency to access the APRS network? (and yes, we're not eu ;o(
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[10:10] <gonzo_> a quick google suggests that 434mhz is licence exempt in .ch (there would be a lot of illegal cars is if were not!)
[10:12] <mfa298> well more accurately I think it's ITU region 1 that has 434 as license exempt but calling it EU is a lot easier
[10:14] <namor> not easy to find. but it looks like it is licence free, too. thanks for the information.
[10:17] <namor> we were considering to use a rockBlock (http://rockblock.rock7mobile.com/products-rockblock.php) and just stumbled over this project (and are totally amazed). what would you consider to be more reliable?
[10:19] <Darkside> radio tracker, if you can reliably receive it
[10:19] <Darkside> and by 'reliably receive', i mean just have a radio setup that isnt horribly broken
[10:19] <Darkside> benefits of radio tracker is faster updates, and it works when the antenna is upside down
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[10:28] <namor> thanks a lot. we wonder if we need to follow the balloon constantly or if can relay on the APRS network. what's your experience?
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[10:30] <fsphil> If you intend to get it back, it's best to chase after it
[10:30] <fsphil> you want to be near the landing site before or shortly after it lands
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[10:48] <mfa298> APRS depends on what the network is like near you (and requires an amateur radio license and that you're allowed to use amateur radio airborne)
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[11:04] <namor> aha. i thought aprs also works on the 434 frequency. not true? so with 434 we relay on our own radio receiver?
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[11:07] <mfa298> the main aprs network runs in the 2m amateur band.
[11:08] <mfa298> whilst you can run the aprs protocol over ISM frequencies there's little point as there's nothing set to receive it by default.
[11:11] <namor> ok. understood. amateur radio license seams to be very expensive and time consuming in switzerland. and we didn't get, if we would need a licensee in every country the balloon crosses...
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[11:12] <mfa298> you may be able to find someone that is licensed that would be happy to get involved.
[11:13] <mfa298> In terms of AR license covering other countries is switzerland is part of the CEPT agreeement that covers you for most of Europe and a few other places (although may require a higher level of license - In the UK CEPT requires a ful license not one of the lower levels)
[11:21] <mfa298> interesting bit about loon 1 year on http://www.wired.com/2014/06/google-balloons-year-later
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[11:22] <namor> again thanks. a lot of clarification. i think we tray to stay in ism.
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[11:54] <namor> with ism and sdr. what would be a reasonable range for a flight at about 15000 meters and SSDV?
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[11:59] <fsphil> it should work as long as you have line of sight .. 15km up, maybe 400km with a flat horizon?
[11:59] <fsphil> also assumes a resonable antenna on both sides and no interference
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[12:02] <fsphil> SSDV is greatly helped by having multiple receiving stations
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[12:02] <namor> wow. amazing. 400 km sounds convenient for catching up with the balloon.
[12:03] <fsphil> always plan for less
[12:03] <fsphil> but it good conditions the range can be impressive
[12:04] <Laurenceb_> interesting, i didnt know loon had altitude control
[12:04] <fsphil> it wouldn't take much local radio interference to cause trouble
[12:04] <fsphil> especially with the sdr dongles, which are quite easy to overload without extra filtering
[12:05] <namor> yes. how do you mean. multiple receiving stations. is there an existing network or would we need to put many receivers out in the wild?
[12:06] <fsphil> a bit of both depending on where you are
[12:06] <fsphil> the uk has a pretty good number of people who can receive and track
[12:09] <namor> we're currently in italy. it looks like the regulations are too complicated to fly, so we will go back to switzerland.
[12:13] <mfa298> sounds like you might not be too far from malgar who's often in here. He's done a fair bit of looking at the restrictions with flying from Italy and Switzerland
[12:14] <namor> who can i contact malgar?
[12:17] <namor> and what would you suggest as sdr dongle?
[12:19] <mfa298> looks like malgar was around in here a bit earlier but left about an hour ago.
[12:20] <mfa298> for an sdr dongle the rtl-sdr dongles will do ok and are very cheap (should be around $10), the Funcube Pro+ is much better but costs a lot more
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[12:21] <fsphil> and after that the prices are crazy
[12:40] <namor> thanks. funcube then.
[12:45] <gonzo_> the FDC p+ is not that bad price, when you consider that it has LNAs and filters built in
[12:46] <gonzo_> with the RTL ones you have to add those
[12:47] <mfa298> if you can afford it the funube is a much better product - just seems that a lot of people don't want to spend that much
[12:52] <namor> and what about the antennas?
[12:56] <Maxell> namor: yagi is best for finding the balloon when it's on the ground
[12:57] <Maxell> However when you are in the car they are hard to aim and just a small mobile whip will be suffcient
[12:57] <gonzo_> and an amateur 'white stick' type colinear is good for home
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[12:59] <DL7AD> hi
[13:00] <Maxell> namor: for on the car something like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Workman-KS1-Rare-Earth-Magnet-2m-70cm-Mobile-Amateur-Antenna-w-BNC-Coax-/201099953441
[13:01] <Maxell> hello DL7AD
[13:02] <DL7AD> hi Maxell
[13:02] <Maxell> namor: and in case the balloon went down and you need to track the very feint signal down you could use a directional yagi antenna http://www.ebay.com/itm/Portable-yagi-uda-antenna-pmr-446MHZ-4-elements-high-gain-7-6-Dbd-70cm-amateur-/291169603437
[13:02] <Maxell> Point the antenna towards the balloon and signal gets stronger :P
[13:03] <Maxell> You should get in contact with some amateur radio operators they might already have this equipment ready to use and might want to help you with tracking the balloon
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[13:13] <namor> thank you for your advice for the antennas and to contact amateur radio operators.
[13:33] <UpuWork> ping Steve_G0TDJ_
[13:33] <Steve_G0TDJ_> UpuWork: Here
[13:33] <UpuWork> PM
[13:33] <Steve_G0TDJ_> RGR
[13:44] Nick change: Steve_G0TDJ_ -> Steve_G0TDJ
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[13:54] Nick change: BitEvil -> SpeedEvil
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[14:50] <tweetBot> @pitsproject: Pi In The Sky Pre-orders now open
[14:50] <tweetBot> (Shipping ETA 3 weeks) http://t.co/ruFAYWCMek #raspberrypi #ukhas
[14:52] <fsphil> ISH
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[14:55] <UpuWork> yep
[14:55] <UpuWork> :)
[14:56] <mattbrejza> i wonder how many will be bought without reading it through then realise the location isnt magically sent to your phone
[14:57] Nick change: Steve_G0TDJ -> Steve_G0TDJ_AFK
[15:00] <jonsowman> hey UpuWork, the github link is broken
[15:01] <UpuWork> get it right first time? Me ? Never!
[15:01] <UpuWork> thx
[15:01] <jonsowman> np :)
[15:02] <UpuWork> fixed
[15:02] <jonsowman> :)
[15:05] <mikestir-work> mattbrejza: it is if you assume everyone else will track for you
[15:06] <mattbrejza> next thing which is needed is a reciever in a box (with its own screen)
[15:06] <mattbrejza> which i reckon is doable
[15:06] <mikestir-work> green peli case with the screen in the lid
[15:07] <mfa298> If I can my banana Pi workign in a useful way I'm interested to see if it can work as sdr receiver and decoder sysem
[15:08] <mfa298> mattbrejza: I tried your app on a raspberry Pi at the weekend and it almost works. It didn't crash :) but the update rate looked to be too slow to actually decode anything
[15:09] <mattbrejza> most of the cpu i reckon is drawing the fft
[15:09] <mattbrejza> so you could do a pi version
[15:09] <mattbrejza> or get someone who knows how to do the fft drawing in a non derp way
[15:10] <adamgreig> compute and draw the fft all on the gpu, right ;)
[15:10] <daveake> Yes. get on it. :p
[15:10] <mfa298> CPU did look to have some idle cycles but the waterfall update was much slower than on my laptop
[15:10] <mattbrejza> my tracker in a box wouldnt need you to attach and arse around with an external reciever
[15:11] <mattbrejza> remind me later and i can send you a waterfall disabled one
[15:11] <mfa298> although this testing at least promises that something a bit faster might manage an sdr receiver and decoder
[15:11] <mattbrejza> or try and build it yourself ;)
[15:11] <mattbrejza> fairly sure the pi could manage with a sdr if you wrote it all from scratch in c
[15:12] <mattbrejza> but frankly i cba, the app works fine
[15:12] <mattbrejza> dongles are shit and annoying anyway
[15:12] <mfa298> did I mention before my last Java experience was when 1.2 was the latest thing :p
[15:12] <mattbrejza> might as well just use my fm thing and adam's conf talk
[15:13] <mfa298> I wonder if it would be easier to support the FCD as that should just present as an audio interface with the IQ data so some of the work is already done for you.
[15:14] <mfa298> once I get the BPi working I was going to try out mikestir-work's websdr code on it and see how that runs - and maybe add looking at that code to the ever growing list of projects.
[15:15] <mattbrejza> hows the js decoder thing going?
[15:15] <mattbrejza> the one that just had psk last time i saw it
[15:16] <mfa298> I've not really looked at that. I think that was one of craag's finds
[15:16] <mattbrejza> can you remember what its called? :P
[15:16] <mattbrejza> i couldnt find it at last look
[15:16] <craag> https://www.philcrump.co.uk/webdemod/
[15:16] <craag> github link is at the top
[15:17] <mfa298> not sure. I might have bookmarked it at home - but probably easier to grep the irc logs
[15:17] <mfa298> or that (three lines up)
[15:17] <mattbrejza> looks like baudot atm
[15:17] <craag> yeah it's baudot only last time i looked
[15:18] <craag> (i've just pulled latest source)
[15:18] <mattbrejza> so whos got a pi handy
[15:19] Action: mfa298 looks at the box behind him
[15:19] <mattbrejza> its probably at hte stage where changing to 7n1 and adding habitat stuff is trival (more so)
[15:19] <mattbrejza> not long until lv1dev can attach to /mt :P
[15:19] <mfa298> although those are all for work
[15:19] <mattbrejza> lz even
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[15:21] <SP9UOB-Tom> afternoon all
[15:22] <UpuWork> hey Tom
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[15:22] <SP9UOB-Tom> UpuWork: hey :-) So im taking Maciej form Copernicus Prroject to the conference :-)
[15:23] <UpuWork> yes so I see :)
[15:23] <UpuWork> excellent
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[15:36] <lucasbuck> hi there
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[15:37] <lucasbuck> long time reader (hab), first time caller -> i have a question about gps (ublox 7) on arduino boards (namely pro mini 3v)
[15:38] <UpuWork> hi lucasbuck
[15:38] <UpuWork> ask away
[15:38] <lucasbuck> hello there
[15:38] <lucasbuck> thx
[15:38] <lucasbuck> I've used lovely online tutorials to read NMEA gps data over software serial. all good there
[15:39] <lucasbuck> also played a bit with tinyGPS libs for aruino, sending static strings of NMEA test data to tinyGPS lib to parse nmea in to nice data thats usable
[15:39] <lucasbuck> all ok there
[15:40] <fsphil> ah, that nick reminds me of an old tv show
[15:40] <lucasbuck> so what ive been battling with, is getting software serial data, reading it, creating another array, converting that to a string, then im about to feed that string to tinyGPS
[15:40] <lucasbuck> however it feels very backwards. Is there a way to skip what im doing, and use tinyGPS directly to talk to the ublox over software serial?
[15:40] <lucasbuck> i feel like im missing something
[15:41] <lucasbuck> :)
[15:41] <fsphil> as you read characters from the gps device, you should just feed them into tinygps directly
[15:42] <lucasbuck> or is that what is done, grab serial data hw or sw from ublox, clean it up, get it in to a nice string, then pump it via some data parser?
[15:42] <lucasbuck> eg tinyGPS
[15:42] <lucasbuck> ah
[15:42] <fsphil> you shouldn't have to clean it up
[15:42] <lucasbuck> that feels like the right approach
[15:42] <fsphil> the gps.encode() function should take your characters that are coming from the gps
[15:42] <lucasbuck> what im doing feels like filth
[15:42] <fsphil> and will return true if it has enough data to give a position
[15:43] <lucasbuck> i see
[15:43] <lucasbuck> that makes much more sense, im googling ...
[15:43] <fsphil> http://arduiniana.org/libraries/tinygps/
[15:43] <fsphil> the first example gives the general idea
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[15:46] <lucasbuck> thx fsphil
[15:46] <lucasbuck> will investigate more
[15:46] <lucasbuck> finally getting around to writing the flight computer
[15:47] <fsphil> the fun bit :)
[15:47] <lucasbuck> :D its all cool, im looking forward to teh radio stuffs
[15:47] <lucasbuck> as thats completely new to me
[15:47] <lz1dev> craag: thats a cool project
[15:47] <lucasbuck> if i get a chance i saw the ukhas conf + radio training + exam
[15:48] <lucasbuck> will try to do that
[15:48] <lz1dev> but the canvas routines are horrible
[15:48] <craag> lz1dev: Not mine, I've just downloaded, run it.
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[15:48] <fsphil> It's a very educational hobby :)
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[15:49] <lz1dev> craag: oh ok, it shouldn't be to hard to get a working web digi
[15:50] <mfa298> lucasbuck: the radio training + exam at the conference is mostly practical and assesments at the conference and the training needs to be done in advance (although there's nothing too hard). craag's the person to talk to about that.
[15:50] <lucasbuck> righto
[15:51] <mfa298> also plenty of people here that will help with advice. And it's a good introduction to amateur radio and electronics.
[15:52] <lucasbuck> electronics im getting down
[15:52] <lucasbuck> i've been a programmer for years, and electronics for 2 or 3 now
[15:52] <lucasbuck> radio, thats a new beast
[15:52] <lucasbuck> but exciting
[15:53] <lucasbuck> im looking to aquire an ft817nd for hands on approach, i learn better that way
[15:53] <lucasbuck> + i want to assist in tracking where possible, not sure how effective i will be living in south west london
[15:53] <lucasbuck> im hoping that will help me skill up too
[15:54] <mfa298> if you can get an antenna with a decent view of the sky you should be able to do a reasonable job
[15:54] <mfa298> if you get an FT817 the foundation license will mean you can use the transmit side of it as well :)
[15:55] <lucasbuck> does everyone here compile with arduino < 022?
[15:56] <lucasbuck> as im having to hack libraries to compile above that
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[16:32] <lucasbuck> oh i see ;)
[16:33] <lucasbuck> tinygps is not bad at all
[16:33] <lucasbuck> i think i just need a gps lock
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[16:49] <lucasbuck> ok getting there i think
[16:49] <lucasbuck> more tomorrow
[16:49] <lucasbuck> cheers for assistance so far
[16:49] <lucasbuck> catch you tomorrow!
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[17:22] <Ian_> Pi In The Sky - what is the weight, with pigtail cable provided please. It might be a significant bit of information to the readers?
[17:23] <Ian_> Is it a DaveAke device? - so many questions!
[17:24] <Ian_> Song coming on - "Everyon's gone for Tea".
[17:25] <Ian_> Correction: Song coming on - "Everyone's gone for Tea".
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[17:47] <aadamson> Ian_, yes, the pie in the sky as referenced above is the daveake/upu device
[17:48] <Upu> I'll come back to you with info later Ian_
[17:48] <Upu> jsut afk
[17:49] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:50] <aadamson> upu, you understanding on the m8c, same footprint at 7c?
[17:50] <aadamson> what's the advantage? just a cost reduced 7c? specs look identical
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[17:54] <ak4rp> parallel glonass, chinese stuff and navstar
[17:56] <ak4rp> which is probably not very useful in general
[17:58] <myself> more satellites is more satellites
[17:59] <myself> gives you faster fixes, more chances to resolve ambiguity, more definitive solutions in general
[17:59] <LeoBodnar> and higher power consumption
[18:00] <myself> and, if you're taking about glonass, a wider-bandwidth antenna and front-end, which means more susceptibility to interference
[18:02] <ak4rp> looking at the specs, marginally faster cold starts (27 s vs 30 s)
[18:02] <ak4rp> and 5x power consumption, do I see it right?
[18:06] <aadamson> talking C to C... cold start is the same, hot start is the same
[18:06] <aadamson> warm start isn't talked about only aided starts on the 8C
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[18:08] <aadamson> slight penalty to the m8c in continious tracking and psm tracking, 2.5mA in cont, an 1mA in PSM
[18:09] <aadamson> so unless they are going to be much cheaper, not sure the M8C is all that much advantage?
[18:09] <aadamson> all the above with the same caveot as the data sheet @ 3.0v
[18:10] <aadamson> ah, and the 8C is worse (much) in glonass + gps mode
[18:10] <aadamson> gps + waas it's only slightly worse
[18:11] <aadamson> and no-one really cares about beidou right now
[18:13] <myself> yeah, for mains-powered applications, multi-system is interesting, but I'd concur, for ballooning it's not worth it now
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[18:15] <aadamson> unless they significantly cost reduced it and are going to pass any of that cost on to the buyer... guess we'll just have to wait and see pricing/availabilty
[18:17] <aadamson> at least the performance specs are the same (max alt, g's, acceleration)
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[18:20] <LeoBodnar> GPS power consumption needs to drop by an order of magnitude to be of a signifcant interest
[18:20] <LeoBodnar> which is not impossible
[18:24] <arko> i may come off sounding stupid here, but if they built a 1.8v only version (dope/size the transistors/wafer approriately) wouldn't that reduce the power?
[18:25] <arko> than making a ublox with a wider voltage range
[18:25] <arko> 1.8-3.3v
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> I'm assuming they are actually at 1.8, with an internal regulator
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[18:27] <aadamson> they talk about a dc-dc converter so I'm not sure they are 1.8 internal, they remove some of the high stability parts on the C's
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[18:27] <chrisstubbs> Is CARS-1 appearing as a car on spacenear.us becuase it has "car" in the callsign? :P
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[18:27] <aadamson> and this in turn causes their *sleep* current to be higher
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[18:29] <LeoBodnar> they are not [19:26] <SpeedEvil> I'm assuming they are actually at 1.8, with an internal regulator
[18:30] <SpeedEvil> k
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[18:31] <ak4rp> I was thinking the Cs might have an internal step-up from 1.8?
[18:32] <LeoBodnar> they have step-down to 1.2V internally
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[18:43] <Lunar_Lander> hi mclane_
[18:44] <mclane_> hi
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[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> I saw on the map that you were among those who could receive the HAM RADIO balloon
[18:47] <Lunar_Lander> how did it go?
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[18:53] <marcel_> hi again
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[18:54] <marcel_> I was wondering if bertrik(sp?) is here
[18:54] <bertrik> hi marcel_
[18:54] <amell> D5 payload train - hilarious. how many transmitters? :)
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[18:55] <Lunar_Lander> you mean the lake constance balloon amell?
[18:56] <amell> think so? saw it up above in the feed.
[18:56] <marcel_> oh hi. we briefly talked yesterday
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[18:56] <marcel_> about visiting your club tomorrow, we can do that. I discussed this today with alexander
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[18:59] <bertrik> marcel_: not sure if I'll be there myself tomorrow, can you join #revspace ?
[18:59] <marcel_> ok, mom
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[19:01] <Upu> Ian_ 63g for the PI in the sky board attached to a Model A with stand offs
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[19:04] <amell> lucasbuck: take a look at tinygps++
[19:04] <mclane_> Lunar_Lander - I was away from my kbd -
[19:04] <fsphil> amell: he's not here
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> oh ok
[19:05] <mclane_> My setup was a 7 elem. yagi with a fcd+ on a photo-tripod in the garden
[19:05] <fsphil> a classic setup mclane_
[19:05] <Lunar_Lander> amell, ah one moment
[19:05] <mclane_> so I could see the signal on the waterfall as soon as the balloon reached 6 km
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> looks like three 2m TX and two 70cm TX, one of these was D-5
[19:06] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[19:06] <mclane_> however, I could decode image packets only at a height of say 12 km
[19:06] <mclane_> and telemetry strings only at even higher altitudes
[19:07] <mclane_> (image packets have fec which helps)
[19:07] <fsphil> very much so
[19:07] <SA6BSS> arko: I have for longer periods run 3V and shorter times just over 5V on a ublox max6 1.8V version and it still works
[19:08] <SA6BSS> I would not recomend it, I´m surprised it still working !!
[19:09] <arko> uhhh
[19:09] <arko> why would you do that?
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[19:11] <Kickball> Hey
[19:12] <fsphil> evening
[19:12] <amell> just reading the pixaxe code posted to the list. Impressed at what you can achieve with a pixaxe
[19:12] <Kickball> Can anyone help me pick out components?
[19:12] <Ian_> Many thanks for that Upu.
[19:13] <amell> its a long time since I saw the word gosub :)
[19:13] <Upu> no probs Ian
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[19:13] <Upu> add on antenna and batteries probably just over 100g
[19:13] <Upu> pretty light really
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[19:13] <myself> heh. The first time I saw picaxe code I thought it was pseudocode
[19:13] <myself> sooooo readable :P
[19:13] <fsphil> shake out of it amell
[19:14] Action: amell slaps himself around the face
[19:14] <Upu> its a good job Ed isn't here
[19:14] <Kickball> Can anyone help me find an Altitude Sensor which works past 10k? Current plans: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qeS7J2i9MCfeCLVDD1z9B5Cd68E1fgFMqdNgwVnKtmg/edit?usp=sharing
[19:14] <amell> this code is a labour of love, real old style stuff.
[19:15] <SA6BSS> arko: resistor broken in upconverter supplying 3,8V insted of 1,8V , and also when programing the at328p the USBasp supplied the whole tracker with 3,3 - 5V, as I was so shure it was broken I did not care, it was under development, working on a 1,8V Tracker
[19:15] <arko> Upu: i miss watching him calling bs
[19:16] <amell> kickball: whats wrong with BMP180?
[19:16] <daveake> Personally I'm quite happy people recommending PICAXE
[19:17] <daveake> So long as they volunteer to do tech support on it here too
[19:17] <arko> ah
[19:17] <Kickball> amell: It only works until 9km.
[19:17] <mattbrejza> Kickball: the arduino due doesnt use 2.6W :P
[19:17] <daveake> I works higher than 9km
[19:17] <daveake> It
[19:17] <Kickball> 'Pressure sensing range: 300-1100 hPa (9000m to -500m above sea level)'
[19:18] <Kickball> mattbrejza: What does it use then?
[19:18] <daveake> Yes I know what they say
[19:18] <amell> Kickball: it should work until theres no atmosphere...
[19:18] <daveake> In practice the reading keeps falling up to 30km and beyond
[19:18] <mattbrejza> like 0.04W max
[19:18] <daveake> So if you want a nice curve you get a nice curve
[19:19] <Kickball> mattbrejza: Do you have a source for that? Not saying its not true, just I need a source.
[19:19] <daveake> Obv you get worse S/N at higher altitudes
[19:19] <Kickball> amell: Why would it only list up to 9k max height then?
[19:19] <amell> btw, i see there is also pixaxe code for a hab RECEIVER - LCD on the dipole. Might try that one.
[19:19] <mattbrejza> look at the datasheet
[19:19] <mattbrejza> it depends on what its doing
[19:20] <mattbrejza> but like 10mA @ 3.3V ~40mW
[19:20] <mattbrejza> its just and ARM core
[19:20] <mattbrejza> (like m3 arm core)
[19:20] <mattbrejza> the embedded one
[19:20] <amell> mattbrejza: who are you talking to?
[19:21] <Kickball> amell: me
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[19:21] <amell> Youre claiming the BMP180 has an arm core?!?
[19:21] <amell> oh. i understand now. arduino. missed a sentence.
[19:21] <amell> &
[19:21] <mattbrejza> no im claiming the arm based arduino has an arm core :P
[19:22] <jonsowman> shocking
[19:22] <amell> revelatory
[19:22] <Kickball> amell: Why would the page list 9km as the max height if it works until not atmosphere.
[19:23] <amell> Kickball: datasheets are just what the manufacturer is comfortable committing to.
[19:23] <Kickball> Ok, so guarrented to be 9km and it 'should' work past 9km though.
[19:23] <myself> the output will just get less linear, less reliable
[19:23] <mattbrejza> ive had these down to as near as zero as you would probably care, but also not quite specced that low in the datsheet http://onecall.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?CMP=i-ddd7-00001003&sku=1457164
[19:24] <myself> you're down at the diminishing tail of the graph of atmospheric pressure at a given height, and sensing those little differences is difficult. It'll probably give some output, but the output may or may not be within spec
[19:24] <amell> Im sorry, loving this pixaxe code. Is the author in this channel?
[19:25] <Kickball> mattbrejza: Would you recomend that over the others we have listed?
[19:25] <mattbrejza> its analogue, so youll need an opamp
[19:25] <amell> kickball: is your objective to measure pressure accurately?
[19:25] <mattbrejza> i can tell you that it has worked down to ~0 for me, thats all im saying :P
[19:26] <amell> mattbrejza: youve sent one into interstellar space?
[19:26] <mclane_> avoid freescale use bosch
[19:27] <Kickball> Well I'm collecting other data and would like to link that data to an altitude.
[19:27] <Ian_> Of course, useable to 9k, after that it just gets a little bit harder. I was interested in the BMP180 for a while but it needs to be properly temperature compensated, so a simple reading of altitude isn't really possible. You might want to struggle with getting it to report reliable altitude with a Picaxe and integer arithmetic. Or stick pins in your eyes for simplicity.
[19:27] <Kickball> I plan on using R-Pi model A, would that make it easier.
[19:27] <bertrik> IMO, it could be nice to measure pressure, but if you have GPS anyway I don't really see the point ..
[19:28] <Kickball> I will have a GPS, we have not picked it yet.
[19:28] <mclane_> why don't you use the gps altitude information?
[19:28] <daveake> For altitude use GPS the end
[19:28] <Kickball> Would the GPS come with altitude data?
[19:28] <daveake> yes
[19:28] <mclane_> yes of course - take ublox
[19:28] <mclane_> works beyond the 18 km limit
[19:28] <amell> kickball: if you want to make things even easier, get a pi to the sky board.
[19:29] <Kickball> What pressure would it measure?
[19:29] <daveake> I approve
[19:29] <amell> daveake: I knew you would.
[19:29] <Kickball> amell: I would like to work on building a set myself as I will be using this for a uni application,
[19:29] <Ian_> The easiest way to correlate BMP180 output with altitude, whilst collecting other data, is to report the BMP180 output and the GPS altitude. Tongue firmly in cheek! :)
[19:29] <mattbrejza> amell: as close to zero as anyone really cares
[19:30] <amell> do they still make the Rpi Model A?
[19:30] <daveake> yes
[19:31] <mclane_> Model A is largely sufficient
[19:31] <mclane_> (switch off all the fancy GUI stuff)
[19:31] <Kickball> ao we should still buy the BMP180
[19:32] <Kickball> ?
[19:32] <daveake> If you just want altitude use the GPS
[19:32] Action: amell wonders about using the Rpi compute module for hab
[19:33] <daveake> If you want pressure then a BMP180 will give you that, but it's beyond the spec
[19:33] <mclane_> when will the compute module be available?
[19:33] <daveake> But if you just need pressure to plot a pretty curve "here the pressure goes down" then it's just fine
[19:33] <daveake> RSN I think
[19:33] <daveake> You can get the dev kit now
[19:34] <mclane_> not yet in Germany - and super expensive :-(
[19:34] <Kickball> could you recommend a pressure only sensor?
[19:34] <amell> I thought we already had
[19:35] <Maxell> I see dead balloons. B29,0. QX$,6=7J3OL#B #U%?8:.65 >/=8SVM:*K9"NEZ)KV 'C:WUJ#*M8%374
[19:35] <SP9UOB-Tom> LOL
[19:35] <Kickball> the bmp180? i thought it also did altitude and temprature
[19:36] <daveake> It does pressure and temperature
[19:36] <Kickball> could we buy one that only checks the pressure?
[19:36] <Ian_> The freescale referenced earlier has a min operating pressure of 0kPa. Non-commital figure from the marketing department that encompases anything below 1kPa with a rather broad brush.
[19:36] <mclane_> all pressure sensors need temperature for compensation
[19:36] <daveake> THIS ^^
[19:37] <daveake> Besides, if something does A and B and you only need A, don't use B
[19:37] <SP9UOB-Tom> daveake: *does not apply to Conchita Wurst
[19:37] <SP9UOB-Tom> ;-)
[19:38] <daveake> I sit corrected :/
[19:38] <amell> lol
[19:38] <Kickball> https://www.adafruit.com/products/1893 https://www.adafruit.com/products/1603 which should we buy?
[19:40] <mclane_> take the bosch - I have flown the predecessor bmp085 several times - works fine
[19:40] <Ian_> daveake, is the "I approve" really you, or a clever Zeusbot response?
[19:41] <daveake> I'm sorry I'm not programmed for that question
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[19:42] <Ian_> Cancel my last, I had scrolled back a bit there Dave and thought I had caught a repetitive theme. Just a brain cell malfunction this end instead. Sorry to screw up the algorithm
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[19:44] <mfa298> amell: you could use the compute module (and at some point may have some advantages for hab) but you're going to need to make a board for it to plug into which could take some effort and time
[19:44] <Kickball> So the BMP180 will work upto 30 km high correct?
[19:45] <amell> in all likelyhood will work
[19:45] <mclane_> what is correct?
[19:46] <mclane_> what you will see is the barometric curve: P = p0*exp(-alt/alt0)
[19:46] <Upu> Kickball I wouldn't bother with a pressure sensor
[19:47] <Kickball> Is our raspberry Pi power consumption rate correct? (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qeS7J2i9MCfeCLVDD1z9B5Cd68E1fgFMqdNgwVnKtmg/edit?usp=sharing)
[19:47] <Upu> pressure goes down as you go up
[19:47] <Upu> and this is a BMP085
[19:47] <Upu> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/Images/HAB/horus15_5_alt_pressure.png
[19:47] <Kickball> Upu: But I like graphs :)
[19:47] <Upu> fair enough
[19:47] <Upu> Model A is about 1/2 the consumption of a B
[19:47] <Kickball> Actually if all it would do is give us a graph.
[19:47] <Upu> 120mA vs 230mA for my board
[19:47] <Kickball> Then our rate is incorrect, why would that be?
[19:48] <mclane_> Kickball: you will see this: http://www.pirnay.com/cache/2/526f06617778a38f84589a9b800793d8.png
[19:48] <Upu> using the on board regulator ?
[19:48] <Kickball> Ok, we will ditch the pressure sensor.
[19:48] <Upu> you can run the Pi from 3V only
[19:48] <Upu> if you aren't using any 5V USB devices
[19:48] <Ian_> Kickball, Finally!
[19:49] <Upu> the Pi Cam is 3V
[19:49] <amell> Hallejuah!
[19:49] <Upu> just wire 3V to 5V pin o the header
[19:49] <Upu> on the
[19:49] <Upu> and use a proper buck regulator
[19:49] <Kickball> Should I measure the power consumption in V, A, or W?
[19:49] <Upu> rather than the on board
[19:49] <Upu> I just measure the current on a meter
[19:49] <amell> mA
[19:50] <mfa298> Kickball: For bananaPi you should be able to get it cheaper than that (either that of the gbp:usd rate has sky rocketed) although for getting it cheap you need to get it from china. Also it may not be as well supported (I've already started playing with one) and I don't think there's such good hardware support yet
[19:50] <mclane_> why bananaPi? rasPi is largely sufficient
[19:51] <Upu> If anyone is interested this is a Model B from 6V : http://i.imgur.com/yjIwWyo.jpg
[19:51] <mfa298> mclane_: I was commenting on one of the options in teir document
[19:51] <Kickball> would there be a point to having a magnetism( hall effect) sensor?
[19:51] <Kickball> would we detect anything?
[19:52] <Upu> And this is a model A doing the same thing : http://i.imgur.com/30e66ig.jpg
[19:52] <Upu> so I strongly advise using a model A
[19:52] <N2NXZ> Looking for a bit of help regarding Arduino/ublox Max-6 With Level Converter
[19:52] <fsphil> seems to be a sudden breakout of stations in the north sea and the atlantic
[19:52] <Upu> Evening Jim
[19:53] <amell> Upu: damn, nice meter man.
[19:53] <N2NXZ> Hello upu
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[19:53] <Upu> ask away :)
[19:53] <Upu> ta amell
[19:53] <mclane_> Kickball: no
[19:53] <N2NXZ> Going by this link...http://ava.upuaut.net/store/wiki/doku.php?id=frontpage:levelconvertor
[19:53] <mclane_> your payload will rotate and swing
[19:53] <amell> that meter apparently costs £630!
[19:53] <Upu> close amell
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[19:54] <amell> The PSU is £270.
[19:54] Action: amell hopes Upus mancave is secure.
[19:54] <N2NXZ> Getting FAILED message continously
[19:54] <Upu> N2NXZ connect the EN pin to VCC/5V
[19:55] <Upu> I need to update that wiki
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[19:55] <N2NXZ> Also with the 5v both?
[19:55] <arjun_19> How you US guys seen the new FAA regs: http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/model_aircraft_operators/
[19:55] <Upu> yeah connect 5V to VCC and to EN
[19:55] <Upu> EN is enable the level convertor chip
[19:55] <N2NXZ> LOL...I was sweating...
[19:56] <N2NXZ> Thought I had blew it up already
[19:56] <Upu> Kickball - Just reading your document, Adafruit GPS is unsuitable - stops working at 27km
[19:56] <N2NXZ> going to connect that up now
[19:56] <Upu> rest work fine
[19:57] <mattbrejza> if you still care about pressure this is how the analogue one i linked to did http://habitat.habhub.org/habitat/_design/ept/_list/csv/payload_telemetry/flight_payload_time?include_docs=true&startkey=[%22772d47eacd79abd7de8b1bcd263f05ae%22,%22614e25738683327c3898d38effefa214%22]&endkey=[%22772d47eacd79abd7de8b1bcd263f05ae%22,%22614e25738683327c3898d38effefa214%22,[]]&fields=time,altitude,pressure
[19:57] <Kickball> Upu: I wanted to have a couple of options researched as I want to submit the document to a sponsor to get some help with the funding.
[19:57] <amell> Theres only one option - and thats UpuGPS
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[19:59] <N2NXZ> SUCCESS :)
[19:59] <N2NXZ> Tnx UPU
[19:59] Action: amell is still trying to find a 20x4 3V display
[20:00] <Upu> super Jim :)
[20:00] <Upu> sorry I will update that
[20:00] <mattbrejza> amell: http://www.buydisplay.com/default/0-91-inch-128x32-oled-display-module-serial-spi-ssd1306-white-on-black
[20:01] <amell> mattbrejza: looks ideal, but plenty of US/china sources on ebay. Looking for UK source.
[20:02] <N2NXZ> No problem,glad to have caught you on here,I would have been goofing around on this all night
[20:02] <amell> mattbrejza: wont this require a display buffer on the uc? I dont have a lot of space left.
[20:02] <mattbrejza> na the thing itself has a display biffer
[20:02] <mattbrejza> u
[20:02] <mattbrejza> although its write only
[20:02] <amell> ah. excellent. just need to get it from UK somewhere
[20:03] <mattbrejza> but thats fine for text, its only when you want to manipulate pixels it becomes an issue
[20:03] <jonsowman> why UK?
[20:03] <Ian_> arjun_19 yes, caught a response to it earlier. Seems very un-considered knee jerk reaction that is going to cause a lot of outcry
[20:03] <Ian_> afk for an hour.
[20:04] <amell> jonsowman: because i dont want to wait for things to come through customs. Last time the thing was stuck in customs for 3 weeks.
[20:04] <mattbrejza> stuff wont get stuck if its <£15
[20:05] <amell> then theres the mail charge on top. £8
[20:05] <jonsowman> adafruit sell 'em if they're any better
[20:06] <Kickball> amell: but the sponsors might not know that.
[20:06] <amell> sponsors? I dont have anybody sponsoring me apart from me.
[20:06] <Kickball> amell: I wanted to have a couple of options researched as I want to submit the document to a sponsor to get some help with the funding.
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[20:07] <Kickball> Would it be worth having a hard to trigger vibration sensor?
[20:07] <Kickball> http://www.adafruit.com/products/1767
[20:07] <Kickball> I think it would be cool.
[20:07] <myself> for bonk?
[20:07] <Kickball> myself: You talking to me?
[20:07] <myself> what happens if you land on water or trees or tall soft grass?
[20:07] <myself> not every landing goes bonk
[20:08] <amell> some go splat
[20:08] <mclane_> Kickball: take a 3 axis accelerometer
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[20:09] <mclane_> you will get data like here(bottom): http://www.pirnay.com/index.php/en/en-home-2/m-missionen-en/mnu-pysys9-en/flight-data
[20:10] <mfa298> Kickball: not totally relevant now but you might want to check how you ctegorize things. e.g. Quite heavy (45 g), Medium weight. (45 g), Very heavy (48 g)
[20:11] <Upu> light, still light and less light
[20:11] <Kickball> I'm going to change it to just be statistics?
[20:11] <Kickball> I think.
[20:11] <Upu> are you in America ?
[20:12] <mfa298> also Model A lists Advantage: Medium weight. (45 g), Disadvantage: Quite heavy (45 g)
[20:12] <Kickball> Upu: I'm in the UK.
[20:12] <Upu> ah ok
[20:12] <cm13g09> evening mfa298
[20:12] <Kickball> mfa298: we changed it multipletimes and might have not corrected it.
[20:13] <mfa298> at this point it's probably not a major issue, but if you're planning on using it as part of a Uni application it's the sorts of things they'll pick up on.
[20:13] <mfa298> evening cm13g09
[20:13] <Kickball> mfa298: Yeah its not even a finished draft yet.
[20:15] <Kickball> So would you recommend ditching the vibration sensors then?
[20:15] <mclane_> is the RasPi compute module available in the uk already?
[20:16] <mclane_> (in Germany: rs components: october; Farnell: in 65 days)
[20:16] <mclane_> cost 154 EUR plus postage
[20:16] <mfa298> At least you're running this like a real project. Looking at the timeline you're already behind :)
[20:16] <mfa298> mclane_: it's available as part of a Devkit with the IO module as well
[20:16] <Kickball> RasPi compute module? Never heard of that.
[20:17] <Kickball> mfa298: Got the months wrong.
[20:17] <mfa298> although it looks like they've found some isses already - the camera adapter board is wrong and could fry the camera
[20:17] <mclane_> yea; that's how it is advertized in Germany (kit module + io board)
[20:18] <mclane_> I am interested since I would like to control 2 cameras
[20:18] <mfa298> Kickball: the compute module is aimed more at the industrial market. It's just the BCM processor, Ram and 4GB eMMC flash on a sodim sized board. With the aim that you design a PCB to plug it into
[20:18] <Kickball> mfa298: Why would I want that for this project?
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[20:19] <mfa298> mclane_: the firmware doesn't yet support two cameras but it's being worked on - I'm waiting to see if that happens as it would be good for a commercial project Ive been working on
[20:19] <mfa298> Kickball: you don't want the compute module for this. Model-A is the way to go if you're using a Pi
[20:20] <Kickball> mfa298: We would only want to setup 1 Pi Camera Module.
[20:20] <Kickball> Alright.
[20:20] <mclane_> I would like to have one cam for normal pictures / video clips and one PiNoir for an optical spectrometer
[20:20] <mfa298> my comments about the compute module were directed more at mclane_
[20:22] <Kickball> kk
[20:22] <Kickball> So would you recommend ditching the vibration sensors then?
[20:23] <mclane_> Kickball: use a 3 axis accelerometer
[20:24] <Kickball> mclane_: Alright.
[20:24] <mfa298> Kickball: when buying parts you may want to see if you can get stuff via your college as that could be cheaper (or see if you can make use of onecall.farnell.com directly).
[20:28] <mikestir> amell: I have a box of 132x32 graphic display modules somewhere - probably got some spare. They will work down to 2.4V and have a SPI interface
[20:28] <mikestir> you have to do your own font rendering though
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[20:57] <Reb-SM3ULC> Evening. Anyone using some nest tool to decode aprs-packets in linux?
[21:05] <amell> mikestir: thanks - dont think i have space for fonts/buffers etc.
[21:05] <mikestir> you don't need a frambuffer, just the font rom which you can keep in flash
[21:05] <mikestir> framebuffer*
[21:05] <mikestir> I've done it on a fairly small avr before
[21:06] <mikestir> I can be a bit more specific than fairly small shortly - I'm just pulling a bad drive from my raid so I can't get at any files
[21:08] <mattbrejza> amell: a full font is ~500bytes
[21:09] <mattbrejza> full being what you can see on your keyboard
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[21:15] <amell> ok, will look at my options in terms of arduino libraries. Was kind of hoping there was a basic serial LCD for 3v operation available in the UK.
[21:16] <mikestir> amell: do you have 5V but your microcontroller is 3V or is 3V the highest voltage in the system?
[21:17] <amell> 3V is highest voltage in the system.
[21:17] <amell> might need to rethink power supply.
[21:17] <mikestir> if you can power a normal character lcd from 5V you should still be ok running the logic at 3v3
[21:19] <mattbrejza> amell: ebay: ss1306 oled
[21:21] <mikestir> I have something or other for avr here that uses one of those graphic displays and has two fonts, and 8x8 and a 12x22, plus a font renderer and line drawing routines using bresenham. comes to 8K
[21:21] <mikestir> controller is a ks0713. I've fished one out if you want it
[21:24] <mattbrejza> i left it at writing text, all you need to do is read out a buffer indexed by each char in the string
[21:24] <mattbrejza> no need for libraries :)
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[21:46] <mikestir> mattbrejza: I had a requirement at work to look at an embedded style font renderer that could handle the full unicode multilingual plane. that was a bit more than 500 bytes!
[21:47] <mikestir> we had to design in a spi flash just for the font
[21:47] <mikestir> pretty easy though - just huge
[21:47] <mattbrejza> ah yea, bit more to that
[21:49] <mikestir> the client turned round quite a way into the project to ask if they could add another language, oh and by the way it's chinese
[21:49] <mattbrejza> then you had to learn how chinese works
[21:49] <mattbrejza> do you render characters or have to store them individually?
[21:49] <mikestir> I had to learn how UTF-8 works. I stopped short of learning chinese!
[21:49] <mikestir> it's exactly the same as any other font routines. 16x16 bitmaps
[21:50] <mikestir> it's just there's 2MB of them
[21:50] <mattbrejza> ah right
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[21:58] <amell> this is ideal http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Disp-Lcd-20X4-3V-Reflect-FDCC2004CRNNYBW16LE-/350714859651 but the price is not ideal!
[21:59] <mikestir> have you found any chip-on-glass hd44780 compatibles? they're probably 3v
[22:01] <amell> just found the same component on farnell for £11 - ebay have some cheeky sods.
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> amell: what's likely happened is they are close to running out.
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> So they increase the price by 5*
[22:02] <SpeedEvil> This means that they get to keep the same auction running - which has some benefits
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[22:04] <SpeedEvil> OTOH - they've fucked up their pricing script somehow, and everything is 3* too much
[22:04] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/m.html?_odkw=&item=350714859651&_osacat=0&_ssn=go4products&_trksid=p2046732.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xlc&_nkw=lcd&_sacat=0&_from=R40
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[22:11] <amell> Speedevil: Yes, everything is like 3x too expensive :)
[22:13] <mikestir> displays aren't the cheapest things especially if you only want 1
[22:13] <mikestir> and 20x4 isn't the most common size
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[22:18] <qyx_> buy-display.com seems to be good source
[22:20] <qyx_> although i am looking at their 3.3V models and datasheets say 4.8-5.2
[22:21] <mattbrejza> i linked this earlier, but apparently shipping might take too long. although at this rate by the time amell finds an alternative this would have arrived from china http://www.buydisplay.com/default/0-91-inch-128x32-oled-display-module-serial-spi-ssd1306-white-on-black
[22:22] <qyx_> oleds need high voltage
[22:22] <amell> ho ho ho
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> I'm amused that for the price of some of those displays, you can actually get an android device with wifi
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dx.com/p/r430c-cartoon-pattern-android-4-2-tablet-pc-w-4-3-screen-wi-fi-ram-4gb-blue-white-311746
[22:23] <SpeedEvil> Even got screwholes for mounting
[22:23] <mattbrejza> qyx_: those ones have built in stepups
[22:24] <qyx_> reading the ds now
[22:25] <qyx_> yep, should be working @3.3V
[22:25] <mattbrejza> can confirm
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[22:29] <astrobiologist> so apparently we'll all be using picaxes... duplex...
[22:30] <mikestir> the only picaxe I'll be using is a bloody big metal one to hit the PIC based ones with
[22:30] <astrobiologist> that'll probably be cathartic mikestir, don't let me stop ypu
[22:31] <craag> as someone who's never seen picaxe code before: OWWW MY EYES!
[22:31] <mfa298> who's going to organise some fitting "tribute" to picaxes during the conference
[22:32] <daveake> GOTO BED
[22:32] <amell> GOSUB brush-teeth
[22:33] <astrobiologist> daveake, don't mention GOTO, Ed might be reading
[22:33] <amell> BASIC has a lot going for it.
[22:34] Action: daveake awaits punchline
[22:34] <mfa298> at least it looks like he's mostly using gosub rather than goto
[22:34] <amell> There is no punchline :)
[22:34] <fsphil> a lot of abuse going for it?
[22:35] Action: amell fondly recalls debugging nested gosubs.
[22:35] <daveake> There's the comedy factor
[22:35] <fsphil> gosub is worse than goto
[22:35] <mikestir> if it has a lot going for it then why did it quietly go away in the early 90s?
[22:36] <amell> because people decided to use fashionable languages :)
[22:36] <mikestir> (visual basic excepted)
[22:36] <mikestir> visual basic is a programming language used by people that think excel is a database
[22:36] <astrobiologist> I think all the {} etc is going out of fashion now, look at Sprint for iOS
[22:37] <amell> actually PROC and FN were not too bad in BBC BASIC
[22:37] <fsphil> all 2 of its users agree
[22:37] <mikestir> astrobiologist: python might have been a better example :)
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[22:38] <amell> wondering if anyone remembers DEF PROC in BBC basic.
[22:38] Action: mikestir does
[22:38] <mfa298> I do
[22:38] <fsphil> probably just the way I learned, but { and } is much clearer to me than indentation
[22:38] <fsphil> though I'm very strict with indentation anyway
[22:38] <mikestir> but who ever used DEF FN on the spectrum?
[22:38] Action: mfa298 would go get the BBC master out if it wasn't so late
[22:39] <amell> I have BBC model A serial number 38 in my attic.
[22:39] <mattbrejza> astrobiologist: look at verilog, who needs {} when you have 'begin' and 'end'
[22:39] <amell> unfortunately the last time i turned it on it emitted white smoke.
[22:39] <amell> electrolytics in the PSU dried out. I havnt got round to replacing them.
[22:40] <astrobiologist> but what serial no picaxe do you have amell? ;-)
[22:40] <mfa298> use indentation as part of the documentation not as part of the language syntax that way if you get a mixture of space and tab it doesn't matter
[22:40] <amell> I fortunately do not own any picaxe.
[22:40] <amell> there is a correction on my BBC PCB.
[22:40] <astrobiologist> I don't think it is unfair to say, for instance, that a picaxe is the descendant of the zx81 - cheap, easyish to program, in basic, for beginners, for small tasks
[22:41] <mfa298> (and I'm one of those that tends to prefer tabs for indentation as I can then use :set ts=? to make it the width I want depending on what I'm working on)
[22:41] <astrobiologist> probably easier than arduinos programmed in c
[22:41] <fsphil> basic is a poor language to learn on
[22:41] <astrobiologist> for more complex stuff, I'll leave you to argue it out...
[22:41] <mattbrejza> it doesnt even have functions :(
[22:41] <mattbrejza> just a set of global variables
[22:41] <mikestir> astrobiologist: the only flaw in that argument is that you programmed the zx81 on the zx81
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[22:41] <mikestir> if you're going to need a pc to program your target you might as well use a compiled language
[22:42] <astrobiologist> mattbrejza, I don't know verilog, please initiate me...
[22:42] <fsphil> verilog. be afraid. be very afraid
[22:43] <mattbrejza> well thats pretty much it, {} are replaced iwht beign and end
[22:43] <mattbrejza> and it was not a good idea
[22:43] <mattbrejza> {} have other usage, but using begin and end was not a suitable solution
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[22:43] <mfa298> looking at that basic code I think arduino is probably more intuitive half of that BASIC code for picaxe doens't look that much like any form of basic most people would use.
[22:44] <mattbrejza> astrobiologist: do you use any languages at work?
[22:44] <mattbrejza> or at home for that matter (non mcu)
[22:44] <astrobiologist> mfa298 to come clean, when I look at small picaxe programs I can immediately understand them whereas C is gibberish. maybe that's just me
[22:45] <astrobiologist> memattbrejza I program Hamilton lab robotics. They basically have a graphical programming language
[22:45] <mattbrejza> i see
[22:46] <astrobiologist> so it's nothing you type in. I did some stuff in visual basic a few years ago to fill in gaps
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[22:46] <mattbrejza> a simple c program might be: while(1){ wait(1); led_off(); wait(1); led_on; }
[22:46] <mattbrejza> not that bad?
[22:47] <amell> restarting for 10.9.4 - later
[22:47] <mattbrejza> visual basic has functions and sensible things like that, picaxe is horrible to actually use
[22:48] <astrobiologist> what does ur example C prog do exactly mattbrejza? just one blink?
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[22:48] <craag> that picaxe code looks to me like a tangled ball of string, whereas a C program has the string pegged out and easy to follow.
[22:49] <mattbrejza> in c, if you have a conditional statement (say if (...) or while( ... ) ), anything in the brakets which is >0 is true
[22:49] <mattbrejza> while 0 is false
[22:49] <mattbrejza> so while(1) == while(true)
[22:49] <mattbrejza> so that loops forever
[22:49] <astrobiologist> mattbrejza I quite agree it would be silly to write a long program on a picaxe. the whole idea is that you can only use the commands someone put on it (like a zx81). no libraries etc
[22:49] <mattbrejza> well it has libraries, theyre just fixed
[22:50] <mattbrejza> even arduino theyre all installd and setup for you
[22:50] <astrobiologist> I did get quite into C for my own hab flight and dodgy dlls of uncertain provenance ruined my lunch, metaphorically. same on my robots in windows
[22:50] <mikestir> you could write machine code routines on the zx81 if you needed to
[22:50] <mattbrejza> (try stm32, you have to supply your own linker script, i wont even start here (and by supply give it a premade one))
[22:50] <mikestir> but being harvard architecture means that isn't an option on a pic
[22:52] <mfa298> In some respects I'm starting to wonder if an OO language (C++ / Java) is a better place to start for a novice - a bit like arduino does.
[22:52] <lz1dev> I woudn't go with java ;)
[22:54] <astrobiologist> how about something like a BeagleBone where everything is accessible as Unix directories in bash?
[22:54] <craag> Using DLLs on a hab flight - I'd regard that as doing it wrong ;)
[22:54] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[22:54] <astrobiologist> craag the divide between a really complex microcontroller program and a "proper" single board computer seems quite a fine one
[22:55] <mikestir> anything that must not fail (like a hab payload) shouldn't be using dynamic memory allocation at all, never mind dynamic linking
[22:55] <mattbrejza> *cough* node.js
[22:55] <mfa298> lz1dev: I'd probably agree with you about Java last time I used it 1.2 was the latest thing. But OO can provide some very readable code
[22:55] <craag> mattbrejza: shhhhhh
[22:55] <astrobiologist> my pc104 hab flight was too clunky but then I was trying to ape cubesats
[22:56] <lz1dev> mfa298: pretty sure any other language support OO :)
[22:56] <lz1dev> supports*
[22:56] <qyx_> theres no problem with java, smartcards are able to use it effectively with just couple KB of memory
[22:56] <mattbrejza> astrobiologist: just buy an arduino, clear a weekend, get a good book/tutorial, and at the end we wont have to have this discussion again :P
[22:56] <mattbrejza> we shall move onto the next one
[22:56] <mfa298> lz1dev: that would be why my first comment about OO listed C++ before Java
[22:57] <astrobiologist> I really like the beaglebone since in true Unix style it sees all its pins and ADCs as text files
[22:57] <astrobiologist> so no dodgy libraries at all
[22:57] <craag> apart from dodgy drivers :/
[22:57] <mfa298> could also use Ruby or potentially python (although OO in python seems a bit odd) there's even OO in php but I would recommend that less than Java
[22:57] <craag> have they fixed hotplug usb yet?
[22:57] <mattbrejza> accessing adc via a text file isnt dodgy... :/
[22:58] <lz1dev> not at all :DD
[22:58] <astrobiologist> but everything is a text file in unix...
[22:58] <mikestir> only if you make it that way
[22:58] <mattbrejza> and with micros everything is a memory location
[22:58] <mattbrejza> adc result is stored in the ADC1 register (iirc)
[22:59] <mfa298> you can access a lot of the GPIO on the RPi through files as well but it's so slow compared to talking direct via memory (although that requires a higher level of coding)
[23:00] <astrobiologist> I have got a bunch of c books, honest, but they are so huge and there is always something useful (like bitshifting) that a particular book overlooks
[23:01] <astrobiologist> and a particular C program is only as good as the libraries it uses
[23:01] <mikestir> if you aren't confident about the quality of the library then don't use it then
[23:01] <mikestir> C != arduino
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[23:02] <astrobiologist> Pi doesn't have inbuilt ADCs, whereas beagle does, hence drawn to latter
[23:02] <astrobiologist> of course arduino has ADCs, so does picaxe (and pic) come to that :-)
[23:03] <mfa298> most of the principles in most languages are the same as other languages. I learnt things like bit shifting and bitwise operators in a combination of C/PHP/Perl but knowing how they work I can use them in any other language that supports them I just had to lookup the syntax
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> the digitalWrite command uses about 150 clock cycles
[23:03] <Lunar_Lander> direct port manipulation is much quicker
[23:03] <mfa298> same for loops, conditionals (if...then...else)
[23:03] <mattbrejza> you just need to find a good beginers tutorial for arduino rather than a c dictionary
[23:04] <craag> Yeah use a tutorial
[23:04] <mfa298> or find a good online course / tutorial.
[23:04] <craag> You want to see the problem, and then select the tool
[23:04] <craag> rather than getting all the tools with no idea what they're for
[23:04] <astrobiologist> they were tuts, obviously rubbish ones.
[23:05] <astrobiologist> is doing it all in bash very naughty then? from a Unix point of view it seemed a very low level way of doing things and hence less prone to buggering up (dlls etc)
[23:05] <Lunar_Lander> arduino tutorial that I liked is here: http://www.jeremyblum.com/portfolio/arduino-tutorial-series/
[23:06] <mfa298> not microcontroller based but http://c.learncodethehardway.org/book/ looked to be pretty reasonable
[23:06] <mikestir> astrobiologist: bash is really just another interpreted language
[23:06] <mfa298> codecademy is also good but doesn't seem to cover C or related languages
[23:07] <astrobiologist> thanks guys, I'm bookmarking those links, but the jeremyblum one doesn't work?
[23:08] <mfa298> the language you use depends on what you're trying to do. As a sysadmin I'll write code in bash, perl, C or various other languages depending on the task (also PHP and starting to use some Python and potentially Ruby)
[23:09] <Lunar_Lander> astrobiologist, hold on
[23:09] <Lunar_Lander> https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLA567CE235D39FA84
[23:09] <mfa298> as a hobbyist programmer I'll use C/C++ perl and starting to use python.
[23:09] <astrobiologist> I rather fancy Forth since for microcontrollers it is getting very close to their basic functions
[23:10] <astrobiologist> I.e you are passing stuff on and the processor stack
[23:10] <mikestir> that's not so true any more because most modern micros have so many registers you don't use the stack for arithmetic operations at all
[23:11] <mikestir> architectures like ARM cortex are actually designed for C
[23:11] <astrobiologist> but there isn't a simple microcontroller running a comprehensive Forth that covers ADCs etc,Not that I've found anyway
[23:12] <astrobiologist> thanks Lunar_Lander I have the YouTube tuts now
[23:15] <astrobiologist> as I think I've mentioned before, I was very intrigued by FPGAS, which are entering the hobbyist spectrum. You could make an algorithm in something like labview or matlab, and get this turned into denovo logic circuitry on the chip! so no language to learn as such.
[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> that's good
[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> you're welcome
[23:16] <astrobiologist> but no ADCs... everything I want to do needs ADCs...
[23:16] <mikestir> you could connect a spi adc to an fpga
[23:17] <astrobiologist> but presumably you'd need to program in a bitbashed spi interface of your own mikestir...
[23:18] <mikestir> yes, but most of the tools will provide blocks for things like shift registers, so you may not have to write any actual vhdl or verilog
[23:18] <mikestir> you may get away with drawing the top level in schematic
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[23:19] <mikestir> FPGAs are totally different beasts to microcontrollers though - you're not writing a sequential program; everything happens at the same time once per clock tick
[23:19] <mikestir> sequential operations have to be implemented as a state machine
[23:20] <astrobiologist> you're going over my head mikestir... I can just about get the concept, I can imagine learning labview say and getting the relevant conversion program
[23:21] <astrobiologist> I was wondering whether it was a more intuitive (and powerful) way to program things
[23:21] <mikestir> yeah I'm not familiar with the capabilities of labview and matlab in that context so I don't know how far they go
[23:22] <mikestir> I have some experience of generating vhdl out of a thing called systemview - that did a great deal of the dirty work for you
[23:22] <astrobiologist> one way or the other is it less "dirty" than a C program with lots of libraries etc on an arduino or a Picaxe...
[23:23] <mikestir> don't think of it as a program - think of it as programmable hardware
[23:23] <astrobiologist> obviously it is a complicated way to do it, but holds out the promise of a totally customised chip that does exactly what you want
[23:24] <mikestir> it's exactly how most custom chips would be prototyped
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[23:25] <astrobiologist> I read a review in makemag that suggested it was getting accessible to hobbyists
[23:25] <mikestir> yes you can get boards like the DE0 nano
[23:26] <astrobiologist> and before I spend a lot of time learning to program Arduinos or Pis or whatever I wondered if it was another avenue worth considering
[23:26] <mikestir> and most of the fpga vendors give away the basic version of their tools
[23:26] <mikestir> tbh I don't think I'd recommend it as a first step unless you really can find a tool that lets you go straight from matlab to a functional board
[23:27] <astrobiologist> thanks mikestir. yes, there are converters from matlab etc - that is what made it seem most feasible. it is only a particular subset of chips though, can't remember whose
[23:28] <mikestir> the two big vendors are altera and xilinx
[23:28] <mikestir> you'll get low cost boards for either of those
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[23:32] <astrobiologist> thanks mikestir. I can't find which FPGA it was... annoyingly!
[23:32] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
[23:32] <mikestir> FPGAs are really best suited for high speed repetitive tasks where data flows from inputs to outputs and some process takes place in the middle
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[23:32] <mikestir> like looking for patterns in a data stream
[23:33] <mikestir> as soon as the process demands a lot of state it often ends up easier to incorporate a CPU in the FPGA design anyway
[23:33] <mikestir> quite a few high end FPGAs now include a CPU core as well for that reason
[23:34] <mfa298> not sure if it's still true but I thought fpgas only remembered their programming while powered on. If it gets shutdown you may need a mechanism to reprogram it
[23:34] <mikestir> yes most are SRAM based
[23:34] <mikestir> but they will boot from a SPI flash
[23:34] <mfa298> it was a long time ago I did stuff with fpgas as part of my degree
[23:38] <mfa298> from my memory of them they probably make more sense if you're starting off with something thats more digital electronics based (logic gates etc.)
[23:38] <mikestir> http://vimeo.com/28420449 <- my fpga zx spectrum astrobiologist
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[23:40] <astrobiologist> oooh I like it mikestir. now fly it on a hab?
[23:40] <mikestir> lol
[23:41] <mikestir> I did a bbc micro as well
[23:41] <mikestir> same board
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[23:43] <mikestir> mfa298: that's definitely true. you need to be in a different frame of mind to write fpga code because everything in a process happens at the same time so the order you write stuff doesn't affect when it happens, it alters the priority
[23:45] <mikestir> http://vimeo.com/27974778 <- that's the beeb one running chuckie egg (and others)
[23:46] <astrobiologist> I'll probably dream about fpgas now... night all!
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[23:47] <mikestir> gn from me too
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[00:00] --- Tue Jul 1 2014