highaltitude.log.20140627

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[00:33] <Ian_> mfa298 - sorry, I was afk, travelling from Birmingham/West Bromwich
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[05:32] <JMH> bye
[05:32] <Maxell> Morning
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[06:43] <SA6BSS> SP3OSJ is up
[06:43] <Maxell> ack
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[08:06] Nick change: SA6BSS|2 -> SA6BSS
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[08:15] <ak4rp> MRC is filling :) http://s965.photobucket.com/user/ejcspii/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-06/IMG_20140627_101019.jpg.html
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[08:19] <ak4rp> so MRC 434.950 RTTY 100 baud 200 Hz 7N2
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[08:23] <UpuWork> I'll stick that in the info
[08:23] <mikestir-work> UpuWork: WG2 seems to have worked OK in terms of power save. I set it to a 2 second update rate in PM2. I'll do some more work on to see if it can be slowed down any further.
[08:24] <mikestir-work> I think I only ever saw it not in power-optimised-tracking mode once though, so it obviously wasn't bothered by drift even at -30
[08:24] <amell> ak4rp: is that one of those fancy auto launchers?
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[08:26] <HA6NN> GM all
[08:28] <UpuWork> seems to have done really well mikestir-work
[08:30] <mikestir-work> yeah I'm really pleased with it. I think the tracker might still be running now, but I don't suppose any more trackers will pop up
[08:31] <UpuWork> how accurate is the battery voltage ?
[08:34] <mikestir-work> Should be pretty good. Vcc is within 10mV and it's all referred back to the internal bandgap
[08:34] <mikestir-work> it had been sitting around 1.3V at that temperature for a while though
[08:36] <amell> mikestir: just looked at WG2 - no overnight dip. must have been icing the previous night.
[08:36] Nick change: BitEvil -> SpeedEvil
[08:36] <mikestir-work> it was higher last night though amell, which might have made it more stable - not sure
[08:37] <amell> why was it higher& pressure differential?
[08:38] <mikestir-work> I think the tend to float higher on day 2 because the envelope has been pre-stretched
[08:38] <mikestir-work> *they
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[08:51] <ak4rp> amell: Im not sure how fancy or auto this is
[08:51] <ak4rp> pretty old
[08:51] <ak4rp> and hydrogen is coming from a pipe, so yes, that might be one of them
[08:51] <amell> hydrogen eh. a stand well clear moment.
[08:56] <HA6NN> ak4rp: Hi, Does your balloon fly?
[08:58] <ak4rp> there is a glitch with the GSM tracker
[08:58] <ak4rp> we had to get a different SIM card
[08:58] <ak4rp> thanks to Lidl
[08:59] <ak4rp> a few more minutes, hopefully
[09:01] <tweetBot> @G7IGB: School's balloon launch Saturday: On Saturday, weather permitting, students at Queen Marys... http://t.co/yVekjoJM4X #hamradio #ukhas
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[09:11] <ak4rp> MRC is flying
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[09:12] <HA6NN> Booming here!
[09:12] <HA6NN> Have a nice flight!
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[09:16] <ProSpectre> mornin gents
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[09:22] <ak4rp> MRC: http://s965.photobucket.com/user/ejcspii/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2014-06/IMG_20140627_111040.jpg.html
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[09:30] <HA6NN> om3bc: Hi, all systems go here. :) So am I...
[09:32] <HA6NN> ak4rp: The fellow on your picture holding the balloon must have been a bit too heavy... :)
[09:44] <amell> black connectors for connecting wires to pcb header pins - what do you call them? cant for the life of me find them on ebay.
[09:45] <daveake> Try "female pin headers"
[09:46] <amell> nope. these are still sockets.
[09:46] <amell> want the ones that you use to plug loose wires onto pcb pins.
[09:46] <daveake> You don't want to solder?
[09:46] <amell> solder is fine.
[09:46] <daveake> well use a socket and solder to the wire
[09:47] <mfa298> on ebay you have some success looking for dupont wires although I'm not sure thats a proper name for them
[09:47] <amell> something like molex KK would be cool where you can take the metal spring out of the connector.
[09:47] <mikestir-work> you mean the crimp housings that look like a thin molex kk without the latch? the ones you get for connecting PC front panels to the motherboard?
[09:47] <amell> yep
[09:49] <mikestir-work> http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/cables-connectors/crimp-connectors
[09:49] <amell> thats the one.
[09:50] <mfa298> oooh that looks like a good source, I was looking fro them a few months ago and there seemed to be very few places doing them at a sensible price.
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[09:51] <amell> strangely these dont come up on ebay search
[09:51] <mikestir-work> search for "multicomp 2226" on farnell
[09:52] <mikestir-work> but if you're doing a custom board and you want a more compact and reliable connector you might want to look at JST ZH
[09:53] <mikestir-work> you can get a chinese copy crimp tool for about £40
[09:53] <amell> i like molex KK, apart from the height
[09:53] <mikestir-work> or JST SH if you need really tiny
[09:53] <amell> no custom boards, just to fudge a few breakouts together.
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[09:59] <mfa298> if it's flying you probably want to use solder (I wouldn't trust those connectors to survive Ed's stairs test)
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[09:59] <mfa298> but they can work for testing
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[09:59] <amell> its going in a rocket, and will be subject to 20+ Gs :)
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[10:17] <Kodar> MRC 10:16:45,,,,,0,00,,9,,,,,,*61,0*6E
[10:18] <Kodar> ???
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[11:53] <HA6NN> ak4rp: You probably met heavy traffic on road 31.
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[11:54] <HA6NN> ak4rp: Guess I have lost sognal...
[11:54] <HA6NN> eee. signal...
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[12:35] <amell> Upu: sounds like you had an exciting morning :)
[12:35] <UpuWork> very
[12:35] <UpuWork> nailed a few things I've been having issues with :)
[12:35] <amell> next step global domination
[12:38] <aadamson> UpuWork, catch the link, I think it's /store not /shop?
[12:38] <daveake> it is
[12:38] <aadamson> ah daveake just corrected it
[12:40] <Laurenceb_> any matlab users here?
[12:40] <UpuWork> oh shoot
[12:41] <UpuWork> thanks
[12:43] <aadamson> UpuWork, PM (revisit)
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[12:57] <amell> lightest way to supply a 3.3v board? thinking about a single cell Lipo with a stepdown
[13:00] <mattbrejza> are lipos energy density higher than lithium cells?
[13:00] <mattbrejza> (as in J/g)
[13:00] <aadamson> tps62290 and associated parts is one option, but if only going from from 1S to 3v3, an LDO would probably work as well
[13:01] <amell> not sure if li AAAs would be lower density. helps to be able to recharge
[13:02] <mattbrejza> depends on application - ie if you want it back
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[13:02] <mattbrejza> the lithium AAAs arnt exactly cheap but when you only need one then it matters somewhat less
[13:02] <amell> needs to be reusable
[13:03] <daveake> Primaries are re-usable, till they're flat :)
[13:04] <amell> actually. might just be able to use a photo battery, cr123
[13:04] <mattbrejza> yea there are other non AA(A) cells that have nicer dimensions
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[13:24] <tweetBot> @mikestir_uk: Short summary of the WG2 balloon flight and tracker test, now out of range after 1500 miles http://t.co/foZKde1ChV #hamradio #ukhas
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[13:53] <mikestir-work> thanks for the comment aadamson :)
[13:56] <aadamson> No prob mikestir-work it's always fun seeing these pico flights! congrats on your maiden voyage!
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[14:07] <amell> mikestir-work: one comment on that article, i think we concluded the reason for the dip was moisture/ice. Sounding data in the netherlands showed high water content from 6k down to 4k
[14:10] <mikestir-work> oh right. that's interesting and worth including. where was the data from?
[14:11] <amell> sonde data in the nl. Let me find the reference in the irc log
[14:11] <mikestir-work> k. I'll update it this evening
[14:12] <amell> it was at c. 1am yesterday morning. right at the start of the irc log
[14:12] <amell> http://habhub.org/zeusbot/logs_highlighted/highaltitude.log.20140626.html
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[14:20] <aadamson> mikestir-work, go here and I think you can back up the date - http://weather.uwyo.edu/upperair/sounding.html
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[14:20] <mikestir-work> I should have read through that IRC log - it was after I'd gone to bed so I never noticed this drop out in the GPS signal: $$$$$WG2,1382,015805,0.0000,0.0000,0,0.0,0,1410,1987,-7,02608200*926D
[14:20] <aadamson> if you turn on frost point calcs (at the bottom), it will give you ice and ice preditions
[14:20] <amell> http://weather.uwyo.edu/cgi-bin/sounding?region=europe&TYPE=TEXT%3ALIST&YEAR=2014&MONTH=06&FROM=2600&TO=2600&STNM=06458
[14:21] <aadamson> mikestir-work, go download the habitat data, I saw that posted, but I never saw it in a fast past of the actual data - might have missed it however
[14:25] <aadamson> http://weather.uwyo.edu/cgi-bin/sounding?region=europe&TYPE=TEXT%3ALIST&YEAR=2014&MONTH=06&FROM=2600&TO=2712&STNM=10113&ICE=1 - this is from the station right at the coast, with icing infor turned on, you can see the challenge straight away at 5k - 10k that day
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[14:25] <mikestir-work> I've already downloaded the data aadamson. Will look at it this evening
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[14:28] <amell> duh, been worrying about 3v3 source for the last couple of hours and just realised the breakout im using has built in v reg!
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[14:34] <astrobiologist> so whose balloon is MRC on spacenear.us?
[14:35] <astrobiologist> since I work for the real MRC (http://www.mrc.ac.uk) I was intrigued :-)
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[14:49] <mikestir-work> aadamson: so is the RELI column an indication of amount of icing?
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[14:51] <aadamson> that I don't know Mike... I was looking for information on rime ice yesterday and came across references to humidity at altitude and it linked back to that site. Obviously RELH is relative Humidity and the two are inter-related
[14:51] <aadamson> somehow
[14:52] <aadamson> I've heard of *clear air ice* forming and suspect it's related to moisture vapor, dew point, and temperature
[14:53] <aadamson> Anyway, that link has both US and EU sounding data, and can probably help with prediction of moisture content in the air at altitude for these light payloads/free lifts
[14:54] <aadamson> but that evening/night was especially bad at the altitude you were at for any form of moisture in the air :)
[14:56] <aadamson> mikestir-work, I left you a couple of reference points on other topic in PM
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[15:10] Action: SpeedEvil resists commenting on 'europe sounding data'
[15:14] <aadamson> mikestir-work, this might be what Reli is and why it can be higher than 100% - http://www.theweatherprediction.com/habyhints/347/
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[15:36] <malgar> is there a !seen function?
[15:36] <mikestir-work> try it and !see
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[15:37] <malgar> oook
[15:37] <mikestir-work> aadamson: that guy has a good name for someone who deals with met sondes
[15:37] <malgar> but..mclane=DL7AD?
[15:39] <UpuWork> no
[15:39] <aadamson> hehe funny mikestir-work didn't even notice that :)
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[15:51] <fsphil> that was easy
[15:54] <malgar> why is finds even nickname not matching literally?
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[15:55] <fsphil> probably the username
[15:55] <fsphil> or nick changes
[15:57] <malgar> tomorrow I'll try to track the D-5 balloon. It will transmit SSDV. Is dl-fldigi enugh? how will I see that a part of image is received right? what will appear in dl-fldigi?
[15:57] <daveake> View --> SSDV
[15:58] <daveake> Also you should see "Uploaded image packet m of n" in thewindow where it normally shows the last sentence
[15:58] <malgar> ok
[15:59] <malgar> it will be 240 km far. I'm really curious if I'll receive something useful at 300 baud
[16:00] <malgar> I received PYSY from 300 km but it has been 50 baud
[16:00] <fsphil> a valid ssdv packet will also turn the bar at the top green
[16:00] <fsphil> if you have a fair setup then you shouldnt find 300 baud much more difficult at that distance
[16:01] <malgar> 7 elem yagi + rtl-sdr dongle
[16:01] <fsphil> on my floats I receive images up until about 350km, then partials out to about 500km
[16:01] <daveake> And the image data would be more successful than the telemetry
[16:01] <fsphil> oh that's more than enough
[16:01] <malgar> 50 baud from 300 km was really strong
[16:01] <malgar> perfect :)
[16:01] <fsphil> my example was just a colinear. a yagi will do better
[16:02] <fsphil> *LOS permitting
[16:02] <fsphil> you'll get gibberish on the text window while your receiving image data
[16:02] <fsphil> which is a bit confusing first time
[16:03] <malgar> how much long usually?
[16:04] <fsphil> um?
[16:05] <malgar> how much time the gibberish will last?
[16:05] <fsphil> ah
[16:05] <malgar> or how many rows
[16:05] <fsphil> for as long as there is image data being sent
[16:05] <daveake> You may need to clear the window if you want to see telemetry data come in
[16:05] <fsphil> at 300 baud it's about 10 seconds per packet
[16:05] <malgar> perfect
[16:05] <fsphil> and depending on the payload, it may send text between them
[16:06] <daveake> I typically send 4 image packets then 1 telemetry
[16:06] <daveake> Others will have their own plan
[16:06] <fsphil> hopefully you'll get some good images
[16:06] <daveake> Actually, I should change the ratio depending on altitude
[16:06] <fsphil> not a bad idea
[16:06] <fsphil> I want to do another floater before the summer ends
[16:07] <daveake> I'd like to try sending one your way again
[16:07] <fsphil> oooh yes
[16:07] <daveake> Or send an NBTV one your way :)
[16:07] <fsphil> hah
[16:08] <fsphil> I need to make the Pi decoder a bit more user friendly
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[17:00] <malgar> fsphil: this will be the LOS for tomorrow tracking http://goo.gl/maps/ObM3q
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[17:20] <aadamson> is the ssdv mechanism/protocol/<whatever *it* is> documented anywhere?
[17:21] <Reb-SM3ULC> Are there any caubesats with SSDV onboard?
[17:21] <jonsowman> oi zeusbot
[17:21] <daveake> sleepybot
[17:21] <daveake> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ssdv
[17:21] <jonsowman> useless
[17:22] <Reb-SM3ULC> A brijant concept with packetized images instead of D-SSTV
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[17:23] <aadamson> thanks daveake
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[17:48] <astrobiologist> to mattbrejza or anybody else: it has been another baaaad day in the lab
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[18:18] <malgar> is SSDV something created for HAB or it existed before?
[18:18] <malgar> I know about SSTV but it is analogue, right?
[18:19] <daveake> fsphil invented it for hab
[18:22] <malgar> :O
[18:25] <astrobiologist> you thought hab was difficult... should try "Rainbow Loom" bracelets, age 8+, but it doesn't specify required IQ and dexterity...
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[18:31] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:04] Action: mfa298 thinks BBC4 were getting confused just now. They were showing a screen saying the programming on BBC One HD weren't available in my area.
[19:06] <mfa298> but one way or another they got it working, shame there's no HD as Blondie at glasto might have been worth it.
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[19:10] <astrobiologist> mfa298 they could beam it via a repeater on a big helium balloon a la Google Loon?
[19:11] <fsphil> could
[19:11] <fsphil> or just use a satellite
[19:13] <astrobiologist> yes but this is ukhas fsphil so by golly we have to use balloons, it is a matter of honour?
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[19:16] <fsphil> satellites are very high up
[19:16] <fsphil> they count :)
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[19:18] <astrobiologist2> so why all the Google loon malarkey then? was it to give dan bowen gainful employment? :-)
[19:19] <fsphil> google moves in mysterious ways
[19:20] <fsphil> a ukhas satellite would be a very cool thing
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[19:22] <fsphil> more predictable path than a balloon too
[19:23] <mfa298> I think the idea of loon was that you could get more bandwidth and potentially lower latency.
[19:23] <mfa298> satellites have a large footprint so the limited footprint is shared by a larger area, As balloons are lower the footprint is smaller so any bandwidth is shared by a smaller number of people
[19:26] <ibanezmatt13> you know a HF loop antenna, that can be like triangle (delta), square shaped etc - does the length of each side of the shape need to be the same?
[19:27] <ibanezmatt13> so for a 128 foot wire in a triangle, would each side of the triangle have to be as close to 42 foot as possible, or can it be whatever shape you want :P
[19:29] <mfa298> I think it's ideal to have something that gives you similar dimensions (so would fit in a square and touch all sides), but you could use a hexagon, octogon etc.
[19:29] <mfa298> shape might have some impact on radiation pattern
[19:29] <fsphil> with HF antennas, it's whatever you can get away with
[19:30] <ibanezmatt13> ah ok
[19:31] <ibanezmatt13> so in our back garden, we can do a square, where each side has to be about 32 foot, so long as - one side can be shorter than 16 foot :P
[19:31] <ibanezmatt13> just wondered how that would affect it for HF
[19:32] <mfa298> standard trick for HF is try it and see what happens. If it doesn't work try something else.
[19:32] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, we'll probably do that :)
[19:32] <mfa298> If you've got enough bits, set up two options and do some comparisons, then pull out the worst one and try something else with it.
[19:33] <ibanezmatt13> yeah. I mean even if it was roughly circular it should still work based on what I've read
[19:33] <mfa298> although if it's a multiband antenna then you might find each version works better on different bands
[19:34] <ibanezmatt13> yeah probably, though we have an ATU so that should help us
[19:34] <ibanezmatt13> here's what I'm thinking: http://goo.gl/EntiOL
[19:35] <mfa298> ATU will help match the antenna to the radio. But you'll find some designs work better than others (and potentially work differently on different bands)
[19:35] <ibanezmatt13> yeah
[19:35] <mfa298> I can use an ATU to match a 100R resistor to my radio, doesn't mean it will work that well.
[19:35] <ibanezmatt13> yeah true
[19:36] <astrobiologist2> quite a good tuned dummy load though mfa298? :-)
[19:36] <mfa298> if you can get the feed point reasonably high (~10m agl) and reasonably well away from anything metal a g5rv might fo reasonably well
[19:37] <amell> is this legal in the uk?!? https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-si4713-fm-radio-transmitter-with-rds-rdbs-support
[19:37] <mfa298> I've had some good results with the wire part from a g5rv, with balanced feeder into a z match tuner (proper balanced output rather than balun)
[19:38] <ibanezmatt13> yeah we looked at that. Unfortunately, height isn't really that achieveable for us mfa298.
[19:39] <craag> amell: Yep
[19:39] <craag> amell: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM_transmitter_(personal_device)#UK_legality_developments
[19:39] <amell> ok so lets build balloons with this and an amp so we can make our gps coords appear on every car radio on the m25.
[19:39] <mfa298> height will help most HF antennas. If it's low compared to the wavelength most of the power goes straight up (NVIS) so good for local stuff (UK) but may not get out to the world as well
[19:40] <craag> amell: 50nW limit
[19:40] <amell> ok 50nW.
[19:40] <mfa298> amell: I think the power limit for standard FM transmitters is someting like 10nW
[19:40] <mfa298> or 50 if that's what you've just looked up
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[19:42] <mfa298> that board could be an interesting option to stick on a Pi as a car mp3 player.
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[19:43] <amell> sure, if you want to set your car on fire.
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[19:45] <astrobiologist2> actually Pis can transmit on FM very easily - there was a guide in a recent Makemag. you out an antenna on one of the GPIOs... and that's about it. some software to drive the pin at the right frequency
[19:46] <amell> i bet the sound quality with that approach is really good
[19:46] <mikestir> very easily and very badly
[19:46] <mfa298> I definetly wouldn't trust PiFM to be legal (It could well generate well over 50nW of RF) and it's likely to have lots of spurious emmisions
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[19:47] <mikestir> it's dead easy to make a little two transistor fm transmitter that will be reasonably stable and reasonably clean anyway
[19:47] <astrobiologist2> I never said it was a good idea, I just said it was in Makemag :-) they had a how-to-make-ur-own-thermite in the last issue
[19:47] <mfa298> PiFM is just playing with one of the clocks on the processor and running it to generate an FM signal
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[19:52] <malgar> is there a way to make my sdr dongle more energy saving? I'm using gqrx on fedora
[19:52] <amell> i did wonder about removing the led on it. it lights up the whole room
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[19:53] <malgar> :P
[19:53] <amell> btw, im amazed at how much data you can download out of cars these days.
[19:54] <amell> serviced my golf myself for first time cos a lot needed doing. couldnt believe how much data there is in the ECU.
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[20:03] <malgar> DL7AD: hi
[20:04] <malgar> are you ready for the launch? :)
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[20:23] <astrobiologist> hello?
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[20:23] <fsphil> Hi how can I help you
[20:24] <astrobiologist> sorry fsphil this app keeps dropping out
[20:24] <mfa298> good evening, this is UKHAS, no one is here to answer your reply please leave a message after the rtty tones
[20:24] <arko> please take our customer survey
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[20:26] <astrobiologist> I wish to complain about this er dead habduino tracker, which I bought from Upu's website, VAT-free, not half an hour ago
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[20:26] <astrobiologist> it's not my fault that it crashed in a cornfield and that I had gone chasing it without taking a receiver, nosir
[20:27] <astrobiologist> (that was meant to be ironic btw)
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[20:29] <fsphil> all these thunderstorms are annoyingly far south from here
[20:31] <fsphil> wonder how many of these have killed payloads: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_%28lightning%29#mediaviewer/File:BigRed-Sprite.jpg
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[20:32] <astrobiologist> but it would be heckcool to have ur payload fried by a sprite, is that what you had in mind fsphil? but presumably you'd to launch over a thunderstorm in advance, or the storm would bring down the balloon
[20:33] <fsphil> yea flying over one rather than up through it
[20:33] <daveake> Interesting cloud outside at the mo http://imgur.com/1WI1c0Q
[20:34] <aadamson> quick if it's coming that way take shelter immediately :).
[20:34] <fsphil> ah, nice thunderstorm
[20:34] <aadamson> *when we get them with *green* edges*, it's time to get the heck out of dodge
[20:34] <fsphil> that to the east of you?
[20:35] <daveake> SW
[20:35] <fsphil> ooh there was just a flash to the west of you
[20:35] <fsphil> watching it on http://www.blitzortung.org/Webpages/index.php?lang=en&page_0=12
[20:37] <astrobiologist> ohhh cool site
[20:38] <fsphil> yea neat since they added the near real time updates
[20:39] <fsphil> it's a bit like lightningnear.us now
[20:39] <GadgetDroid> Very nice I see they've got new hardware
[20:39] <astrobiologist> let's all club together and give Leo money, build lots of balloons, make sure there are dozens in the air at once, and make sure there is some way to remote-command cutdown of the ones over balloons
[20:39] <astrobiologist> under balloons even
[20:40] <aadamson> fsphil, did you mean - http://www.strikestarus.com/
[20:41] <fsphil> hah, nope
[20:41] <fsphil> didn't know tha texisted
[20:41] <fsphil> er
[20:41] <aadamson> ah, cuz the link you gave doesn't work
[20:42] <gonzo_m> leo does that anyway
[20:42] <fsphil> it wasn't meant to :)
[20:42] <fsphil> it was a play on spacenear.us
[20:42] <aadamson> ah... man I'm slow today :)... sarcasm just ain't working
[20:42] <fsphil> blitzortung is a distributed listener system
[20:42] <fsphil> similar idea
[20:44] <fsphil> that little storm is getting more active
[20:44] <GadgetDroid> Documents are great from blitzortung.
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[20:51] <astrobiologist> at the moment we have no way to command a cutdown, isn't that a major gripe of existing amateur licensing laws?
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[20:51] <fsphil> there are si chips which can receive
[20:51] <fsphil> not terribly easy but they can be made to work
[20:51] <astrobiologist> but one could make an HF balloon transmitter with a very long wire antenna...
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[20:52] <fsphil> I'm not sure if anyone has tried 869mhz uplinks
[20:52] <fsphil> they can be made to use more power
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[20:52] <astrobiologist> and hope that would provoke a sprite, burning through the line and giving an autocutdown
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[20:53] <astrobiologist> 868? (strangled noise of pleasure)
[20:53] <fsphil> 868 or 869
[20:53] <astrobiologist> from experience, the xbee modem should work well within 20 miles or so
[20:53] <fsphil> there is a section on 869mhz that allows for nearly half a watt power
[20:54] <astrobiologist> *just* enough if one is directly underneath your balloon
[20:54] <mfa298> daveake: that looks like it could be the other side of some of the impressive clouds that keep appearing on the TV over zomerzet.
[20:54] <astrobiologist> Digi Xbee Pro on 868 is 315mW
[20:55] <fsphil> a sprite occurs after the main lightning bolt in the cloud
[20:55] <astrobiologist> Digi XBEE pro can do 315mW
[20:55] <fsphil> at least in the videos I've seen. I suppose if you had a 80km conductive thread and dangled it from 100km, you might trigger it backwards
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[20:56] <astrobiologist> wow
[20:56] <mikestir> I was thinking about an uplink just before. presumably there's no reason why you couldn't use an Si4463 and then transmit to it with as much power as you like using a 70cm rig?
[20:56] <mikestir> since the rig is not airborne
[20:57] <fsphil> Darkside does that
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[20:57] <mfa298> I think a couple of people have done that here. And the question was asked of ofcom with a very non comital reply
[20:57] <fsphil> as always
[20:57] <mikestir> surely it comes under the control of a remote station thing
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[20:58] <mikestir> and control via a radio link is explicitly allowed
[20:58] <fsphil> the remote station is not an amateur station
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[20:58] <mikestir> it's an amateur receiving station
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[20:58] <astrobiologist> if they allow airborne 2m aprs, then we would be in the clear
[20:59] <mikestir> anyway the whole no broadcasting thing is blown out of the water by aprs
[20:59] <mikestir> which is nothing other than a broadcast
[20:59] <astrobiologist> but aurborne aprs not allowed in uk
[20:59] <mikestir> transmitting isn't
[21:00] <mikestir> it's perfectly legal to receive amateur radio
[21:00] <mfa298> I think the reply from ofcom suggested that as long as your didn't cause interferrence transmitting from the ground to an airborne payload you're probably ok
[21:00] <mikestir> you're allowed to run beacons aren't you?
[21:01] <mfa298> I think the point is that what's on the balloon can't be an amateur station. so you can't legally transmit to it as an amateur station.
[21:01] <mfa298> I thought most beacons were under a NoV (or at least anything thats running unattended)
[21:01] <mikestir> but that doesn't stop you transmitting a message to your mate while the balloon acts as a shortwave listener
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[21:03] <daveake> with 3 people close enough to disable the beacon inside 30 mins? :/
[21:03] <astrobiologist> mikestir, others probably understand it is yes, with the right license you are allowed a beacon, but airborne transmission is prohibited, beacon or not - you can't transmit airborne on an amateur frequency
[21:03] <mikestir> you wouldn't be transmitting airbrone
[21:03] <mfa298> as long as your transmitting to a person. If the balloon happens to take that as a command then it's the balloons fault for interpreting something :p
[21:03] <mikestir> airborne*
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[21:15] <mikestir> it would be nice to have some clarification on this even for telecommand experiments on the ground. the relevant conditions in the licence are a bit vague
[21:15] <amell> can someone remind me of the link to the ofcom document re power levels
[21:15] <astrobiologist> the fear is that ofcom says mfa298 you naughty man, it is a beacon really, tied to your license, part of your station
[21:15] <mfa298> and if the mic happened to pick up a bit of rtty C&C that the balloon can interperet in between you saying something well ...
[21:15] <mfa298> amell: IR2030
[21:15] <amell> http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/spectrum/spectrum-policy-area/spectrum-management/research-guidelines-tech-info/interface-requirements/IR_2030.pdf
[21:15] <mfa298> astrobiologist: I'm suggesting balloon as we currently do that also has an rx.
[21:15] <astrobiologist> incidentally my 900mhz patch antenna has turned in my nasa boss's cupboard (from my time in Black Rock in 2010). would an ATU retune that to 868 tolerably?
[21:15] <mfa298> If it happens to pick up some background that happens to sound like rtty whilst I'm trying to talk to someone down the road with 50W then I'm not doing anything wrong with regards to my license ;)
[21:15] <mfa298> replace rtty with whatever mode you want to use to send commands to the balloon
[21:15] <amell> that document doesnt seem to get specific about suballocations within 868mhz
[21:15] <amell> just use voice recognition balloon side hey, cutdown now and bang.
[21:15] <amell> ;)
[21:15] <daveake> Works for xbox
[21:15] <astrobiologist> mfa298 you guys know better than me, but 2m legal airborne aprs would still be a relief
[21:15] <mikestir> wspr, wsjt and all the other propagation experiment modes also make a nonsense of the "must pass a message to another specific person" rule
[21:15] <mikestir> and you can't argue that wspr is a CQ call because it encodes position
[21:15] <mfa298> This was the question and answer that was asked of ofcom https://groups.google.com/d/msg/ukhas/nDoeUX7OqYs/YNZn_TmyPeUJ
[21:15] <mfa298> astrobiologist: amateur transmissions from a balloon is a different matter (although if allowed would make remote commands easier as you would be talking to an amateur station). At present you could send commands to a balloon but it's not an amateur station so you can't legally address messages to it. Although as mikestir points out there's plenty of modes used that don't send messages explicity to another station
[21:15] <mikestir> presumably there's no reason why the other station can't belong to the same licensee?
[21:15] <mikestir> so you're effectively communicating with yourself
[21:15] <mikestir> (and I appreciate the comment about something airborne not being considered an amateur radio station)
[21:15] <mfa298> that would probably work. Or we can always try some long range communications on 70cm (or another band)
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[21:15] <LeoBodnar> your transmission would not be intended for reception of another radioamateur, or any amateur for that matter
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[21:15] <mfa298> there's nothing to say you can't try calling me with some interesting data, even if I can't receive it.
[21:15] <astrobiologist> when will we hear back on airborne aprs?
[21:15] <gonzo_m> by coinicidence? someone just posted the blitzortung url to my club mail reflector.c
[21:15] <LeoBodnar> s/of/by/
[21:15] <mfa298> astrobiologist: I don't think the actual consultation has happened yet. I'm pretty sure the stuff with all the hype was the RSGB pre consultation consultation
[21:15] <mfa298> you can see all the ofcom consultations at http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/consultations/
[21:15] <gonzo_m> there was a need to reissue the ar licence docs, witj pfcom selling off part of the 2300mhz band
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[21:15] <gonzo_m> so it was an opertune time to getcany other tweaks in
[21:15] <mfa298> I did spot one when I was looking through the other day for some of the vhf/uhf space which included the extra space in the 2m band
[21:16] <gonzo_m> (even if i cant spell it)
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[21:17] <mfa298> this is the one that covers releasr of vhf spectrum (with details of the extra bit of 2m space) http://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/binaries/consultations/vhf-143-169mhz/summary/VHF_consultation.pdf
[21:19] <astrobiologist> perhaps they're just trying to bat this out until the world runs out of helium? then they think we won't bother them any more?
[21:19] <astrobiologist> well, I say H2!!!! in ur face!!! whoosh argghhhh
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[21:20] <mfa298> astrobiologist: it's part of a larger consultation which I don't think was due to be published until around now
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[21:30] <mikestir> presumably if they're being sold they have to be CE/FCC marked and therefore must have passed the relevant EMC tests though?
[21:30] <astrobiologist> mfa298 they commercial hab aprs solutions are still sold as just that, so the onus is put on them if the want a CE stamp or whatever for legal import. acknowledged that would probably kill off the whole idea. BUT if they work well and don't go haywire in the states, then they'd be ok here?
[21:31] <mfa298> astrobiologist: remember that any license change will be for airborne amateur radio of which aprs is a very small subset.
[21:31] <aadamson> mikestir, how to do it without the break off - http://www.tag-connect.com/Materials/TC2030-IDC-NL.pdf :)
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[21:32] <fsphil> we didn't need them anyway
[21:32] <mikestir> yeah I know about those aadamson - still takes up valuable board space though for the holes
[21:32] <jonsowman> certainly didn't need zeusbot
[21:32] <Jeremail> netsplit \o/
[21:32] <fsphil> I knew it!
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[21:32] <jonsowman> lol
[21:32] <aadamson> yeah put it on the break off, then at least you don't have to solder on a header
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[21:33] <mikestir> I have the snap-off from WG2 here - I'll need to keep that as a souvenir :)
[21:33] <mfa298> This also needs a reissue of the license for all UK amateurs so isn't an easy exercise (so if it happens it will be part of the re-issue thats highly probable realted to the changes in spectrum we're allowed to use) - Although that doesn't look like it will include the extra space in 2m (that looks to be NoV for Full only)
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[21:34] <astrobiologist> what's the likely final timescale mfa298?
[21:34] <Jeremail> I really want to get into all of that licensed amateur rad stuff
[21:35] <mfa298> astrobiologist: we have to wait and see when the consultation comes out. But I thought it was due around about now.
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[21:35] <mfa298> I think the spectrum release is due around 2015
[21:35] <astrobiologist> jeremail are you sitting your foundation exam at ukhas 2014? :-)
[21:35] <mfa298> Jeremail: there's plenty of licensed people here so you can always ask questions
[21:36] <astrobiologist> mfa298 ah could be worse then
[21:36] <Jeremail> :D
[21:36] <Jeremail> no. I won't be able to..
[21:36] <Jeremail> I want to though, eventually.
[21:37] <amell> when is UKHAS btw?
[21:37] <jonsowman> UKHAS is always and forever.
[21:37] <gonzo_m> plenty of clubs run exams/courses
[21:37] <astrobiologist> I feel really passionate about it. I want to sit my intermediate next.... and then full, in large part so that I can do aprs in the states if I fly there again
[21:37] <fsphil> We have always been here
[21:37] <astrobiologist> but not near London gonzo_m, it's a bit barren here
[21:38] <fsphil> </vorlon>
[21:38] <astrobiologist> that dates us fsphil :-)
[21:40] <mfa298> Jeremail: there's probably a radio club near you that should do the exams from time to time. The foundation level should be pretty easy to do especially if you have an interest in electronics
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[21:41] <mattbrejza> see title
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[21:42] <mattbrejza> who would have thought useful stuff would be placed there
[21:43] <mfa298> mattbrejza: what a strange idea to put useful stuff in the title
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[21:45] <amell> 16th August - cant do. am gallivanting round germany then
[21:46] <Jeremail> amell : same xDD
[21:46] <amell> why put a conference in the middle of UK peak holiday season?
[21:46] <astrobiologist> Sir Matt Brejza, would that do?
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[21:46] <mfa298> because the previously suggested date (september) clashed with lots of other things
[21:47] <gonzo_m> its not in the middle of the uk though
[21:47] <amell> november seems an ideal time to have a hab conference.
[21:47] <gonzo_m> autumn/winter there are not to many habs or events
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[21:47] <SP3OSJ> Why APRS is not connected with the http://spacenear.us/tracker/???? http://s28.postimg.org/ec8s8e3vh/why.jpg
[21:48] <mfa298> if you want a uni space for a conference you tend to have to go in Uni holiday time (June-Sept, Christmas, Easter)
[21:48] <gonzo_m> but its down to the preference of the person going to the effort of organising it all
[21:48] <astrobiologist2> back again... blimmin thing keeps dropping me
[21:48] <mfa298> amell: you could always offer to organise it then you get the choice of time and place
[21:49] <amell> SP3OSJ: because snus is protecting Leobodnar records.
[21:49] <mikestir> UT3BW seems to be acting as gateway to the hab unknown
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[21:52] <astrobiologist2> oh so the app on my phone is dropping me but leaving the corpse of my original irc session hanging on until it times out...
[21:52] <SP3OSJ> What does the UT3BW to APRS?
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[22:00] <Ian_> mfa298: late answer last night - travelling from Sandwell/West Midlands K
[22:00] <Ian_> ping upu
[22:02] <Ian_> seen upu
[22:02] <mfa298> Ian_: there's potentially some people heading from that direction or I suspect the trains aren't too bad either
[22:03] <Ian_> Looked at the trains from Sandwell & Dudley and they seem OK. By road would end up being a nightmare I suspect.
[22:03] <mattbrejza> lol parking and driving in central london
[22:03] <mattbrejza> no congestion charge on weekends though?
[22:04] <amell> I thought it was at greenwich
[22:04] <mattbrejza> thats central enough
[22:04] <amell> ha
[22:04] <mattbrejza> has a tube station -> is central london
[22:04] <amell> plenty of parking round there
[22:04] <Ian_> Registered with my ££ early this morning but upu's automatic update seems not to be as automatic as one might like.
[22:05] <Ian_> I'll let the train take the strain. It will be a new experience after not using one for a few decades.
[22:05] <mfa298> I think it's automatic via his hands
[22:05] <Ian_> I thought that too, but seems he has had an early night.
[22:05] <amell> a few decades? you know we dont use steam any more?
[22:06] <Ian_> Lol
[22:06] <mfa298> Roads wern't too bad last year (early september) but we were aiming for slightly earlier than the advertised start as we had lots of kit with us
[22:06] <astrobiologist2> you can get to greenwich by robot light rail, normal train, bus, riverboat even
[22:07] <Ian_> It's a great convenience with the car, but I'll just travel light and stay over on the Friday.
[22:07] <Ian_> It's at the end of my beekeeping season and before my annual holiday, so a nice wind down.
[22:08] <amell> beekeeping. cool.
[22:08] <Ian_> Tonnes of honey, driving the xyl mad.
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[22:09] <amell> How do i get rid of these masonry bees that have taken up residence right above our front door? do I blowtorch them?
[22:09] <astrobiologist2> but they're cute amell!!! and they never seem to bother people
[22:09] <astrobiologist2> they live alone or in small groups, so no hive, so no psycho defensive mass stinging
[22:09] <amell> I dont mind bees at all, but right above the front door is a problem.
[22:10] <jonsowman> don't kill the bees
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[22:10] <jonsowman> have them removed responsibly if you so wish
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[22:10] <astrobiologist2> do they accidentally get into the house?
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[22:10] <Ian_> No, you leave them alone untill the sod off at the end of September and then fill up the holes if you don't want them back. they don't sting anyone. I watched one fly into a drilled hole for a rawl plug. Don't know what it was up to but was very accurate and entertaining.
[22:10] <amell> Ive asked around, nobody wants to know because they are masonry bees.
[22:10] <amell> yes, they keep getting in the house.
[22:11] <Ian_> Get some sealant and bung up the holes.
[22:11] <craag> We've got bees just outside the window at work, they're fine until someone steps on one, then they go a bit crazy.
[22:12] <amell> its the gap between the soffit and the wall. I will have to replace the whole lot to seal it.
[22:12] <Ian_> I don't think that they communicate easily with each other when properly stood on!
[22:12] <craag> Ian_: No, but I think the pheromones released by a squashed one alarms the rest of them.
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[22:13] <Ian_> You aren't stepping fast enough Phil.
[22:13] <astrobiologist2> evening craag
[22:13] <craag> evening astrobiologist2
[22:13] <craag> I got your emails
[22:13] <craag> Will catch up with them tomorrow
[22:13] <astrobiologist2> thanks craag
[22:13] <craag> been a hectic week (again)
[22:14] <astrobiologist2> same here craag, ended in me lying on the ground in my lab banging my first on the floor
[22:14] <astrobiologist2> it was that bad
[22:14] <craag> ouch that sounds bad
[22:14] <astrobiologist2> and only about 8.30am
[22:14] <Upu> ping Ian
[22:14] <Upu> got you will update it tommorrow thanks
[22:15] <Ian_> pong upu - rgr no probs.
[22:15] <astrobiologist2> ****ing lab robot failed at the beginning of a major run
[22:15] <craag> ah
[22:15] <astrobiologist2> just after I had prepp'd it with expensive reagents
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[22:15] <craag> :(
[22:15] <astrobiologist2> and the day after I found out a major consumable item had been withdrawn without notice
[22:16] <astrobiologist2> so very pissed off by that point
[22:16] <astrobiologist2> and when astrobiologist is pissed off, he a) bitches about it on IRC and b) turns to amateur radio to unwind
[22:16] <astrobiologist2> which is crazy but true
[22:17] <Ian_> How do you get around that one. I noticed the chaos when coal tar was taken out of med ingredients. Everything was vague for a year or two with the user base who enventually realised that their favourite remedies were no longer going to come back.
[22:17] <Ian_> It was enough to make a few of them very prickly . . . @-)
[22:18] <Ian_> oops :)
[22:20] <astrobiologist2> right now I slowly filing a small menagerie of inductor coils into component drawers in a cabinet
[22:21] <astrobiologist2> so it's a lot like beekeeping, really
[22:21] <astrobiologist2> the inductors are to make a VFO
[22:24] <astrobiologist2> and the ones I need aren't available any more, so I had to buy a variety of similar values, and see if they work... like the coaltar all over again Ian_
[22:24] <mikestir> why not wind your own?
[22:25] <astrobiologist2> mikestir I am not really confident enough... I might come back to you though for a QRP kit I have in mind, where they just give you the toroids and wire
[22:26] <astrobiologist2> I don't know frankly what the instructions mean exactly... so will check in! hasn't arrived yet anyway
[22:26] <mikestir> they will probably tell you how many turns to put on
[22:27] <Ian_> If you kick your set of cabinet drawers, will the inductors pour out and give you a good pasting - ah, just like bee keeping!
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[22:30] <astrobiologist2> ok, for example, if a kit says build a coil which is "200nh, 9t, T25-6" does that mean 200nanoHenrys, with 9 turns on a T25-6 toroid?
[22:31] <mfa298> that's what I would expect. the 200nH will be due to the number of turns on that particular core.
[22:32] <mfa298> there's a forulaue for calculating what the inductance should be based on the size, core and number of turns
[22:32] <mfa298> so in theory you should be able to plug the numbers in and get the right value out.
[22:32] <astrobiologist2> mfa298 if you can point me towards it I would be very grateful
[22:33] <mfa298> best bet is to ask Mr Google - that's all I'd do
[22:33] <Darkside> toroids.info
[22:34] <astrobiologist2> the VFO schematic I have just says "4.6-8.5 uH" for instance. and I have found some coils that not-quite span this. and even then it presumably has to be frequency-responsive over the band in question(in this case 80m)
[22:34] <mikestir> isn't it capacitively tuned, and that's just the acceptable inductor range over which you'll get full band coverage?
[22:35] <mikestir> I would have thought most simple VFOs would be tuned either with a variable capacitor or a varicap/control voltage
[22:36] <Ian_> It's a window to hit. put on the extra turn for the higher inductance and if the circuit tunes low take a turn off. Mr Google says "Toroid calculator" oodles of responses. Here's one http://www.66pacific.com/calculators/toroid_calc.aspx
[22:37] <astrobiologist2> I think it's the latter mikestir, using two transistors back to back in place of varicaps. or something. I thought it looked simpler than some but has become a rod for my back
[22:37] <mikestir> it shouldn't be that critical then. like Ian_ says, put more windings on than you think you'll need then take them off until you're mid band with the control voltage in the middle
[22:38] <astrobiologist2> thanks darkside and Ian_ for the links!
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[22:38] <astrobiologist2> it should work on a breadboard apparently, which is why I was first interested
[22:39] <Ian_> A IN4007 diode or two can be used to sub for a varicap, but not necessarily repeatable for production. The theory is that the size of the depletion region is the dielectric in a capactor.
[22:39] <astrobiologist2> if it works adequately then I will solder it up as my intermediate project
[22:40] <astrobiologist2> Ian_ the instructions make some reference to trying that. as it is it uses two transistors back to back instead
[22:40] <Ian_> Sounds good to me. I had someone decided to use vero board and a gas powered iron for their intermediate project. Scorched to kinggdome come.
[22:40] <mikestir> for 80m it should work fine on a breadboard but you might find the frequency is a bit different when you solder it up, so you might want to leave the final inductor tweaking until you've soldered it
[22:40] <astrobiologist2> I vaguely, vaguely get it if I squint at the circuit diagram
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[22:41] <Ian_> Yes, the 1N4007 is often chosen because it has a big junction area so more potential capacitance. which is usually in short supply.
[22:41] <astrobiologist2> all the coils I got mikestir have adjustable cores and I even have one of those plastic screwdrivers :-)
[22:42] <mikestir> should be easy then
[22:42] <Ian_> Toko coils became very difficult to source at one time, but they do have the benefit of being adjustable, which is a bit easier than having to adjust turns on a torroid.
[22:43] <astrobiologist2> see http://www.hamradio-online.com/1999/mar/w6bky-9.html
[22:43] Action: mikestir remembers the cirkit catalogue
[22:43] <amell> cirkit, remember watford electronics? :)
[22:44] <mikestir> vaguely
[22:44] <astrobiologist2> nope? www.qsl.net/wb5ude/kc6wdk/vfo.hMl
[22:44] <astrobiologist2> www.qsl.net/wb5ude/kc6wdk/vfo.html I mean
[22:45] <amell> watford electronics was like the farnell/rs of the 70s.
[22:45] <daveake> with "special" customer support
[22:45] <astrobiologist2> all in all a nightmare to source the coils, and the caps for that matter, which are all weird values
[22:45] <astrobiologist2> mouser and coilcraft made money out of me
[22:45] <amell> I knew the MD, Nazir Jessa.
[22:46] <mikestir> that schematic would be easier to understand if it used an NPN transistor and hadn't been drawn by a valve guy
[22:46] <astrobiologist2> a VFO is needed for one of the intermediate assessments so I thought I would make my own
[22:47] <astrobiologist2> and it has become such a project just to source the pigging parts that I will use it as my practical projects as well
[22:47] <mikestir> astrobiologist2: you can round the capacitor values
[22:47] <mikestir> and wind a coil. it will work fine
[22:48] <astrobiologist2> mikestir I had a moment of clarity when I realised the caps were only to +- 10% tolerance anyway :-)
[22:48] <mikestir> well the one on the base is only there to ground the base at rf, so that can be anything really as long as you don't make it smaller
[22:49] <DL7AD> good evening
[22:49] <mikestir> and the others will affect the frequency, but if you keep them close you can just compensate for that by adjusting the coil
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[22:49] <mikestir> and I'd be inclined to make it with an NPN, just because it's not the 1970s anymore
[22:50] <astrobiologist2> the intermediate license thing is at the benevolence of craag, and above the call of duty, but even if I can't go ahead with that this year then the VFO will still get built because I am getting obsessed now!!
[22:50] <mikestir> that requires a bit of a redraw though
[22:51] <astrobiologist2> I have the transistors now but had to order one of them from mouser.
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[22:55] <mikestir> right gn all
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[22:56] <astrobiologist2> at the moment I have a blackberry seed crushed into the surface of one of my fillings, which is making it hypersensitive
[22:56] Nick change: pd3t_ -> pd3t
[22:56] <astrobiologist2> and I can't brush it off or dislodge it!! so I'm still up
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[22:58] <amell> wow. I cant beat that.
[22:59] <mfa298> astrobiologist2: even if you can't do the intermediate at the conf this year you should be able to find someone doing it fairly locally - although I realise doing it at the conf is an easy option
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[23:00] <Maxell> Good evening
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[23:02] <DL7AD> hi Maxell
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[23:02] <astrobiologist2> mfa298 not having much luck so far... HMS Belfast sent me in the direction of Epping Forest (lefars.org.uk)
[23:03] <astrobiologist2> M5AKA told me that he was finding people coming out to Chelmsford to sit the exams because they couldn't find people in London
[23:04] <mfa298> well I know london hack space have done foundations so it may be possible to persuade them to do intermediates
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[23:04] <Maxell> qsl DL7AD
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[23:04] <astrobiologist2> the Imperial college radio club seems to be extinct. there is one guy at UCL who is a registered tutor but won't reply to hails
[23:04] <mfa298> you may need to ask around the clubs as they may not run the intermediate if they dont think theres demand
[23:05] <astrobiologist2> I would be really grateful if it can be rolled into ukhas but I know it is extra work.
[23:06] <astrobiologist2> but hey I can bring my own vfo...
[23:10] <astrobiologist2> AHHHhhhhhhh the blackberry seed just came loose
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[23:13] <amell> astrobiologist2: a special moment of joy for you. we are all overjoyed.
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[23:14] <astrobiologist2> yes I can finally go to sleep now amell
[23:15] <astrobiologist2> but at least I know a lot more about coil winding etc
[23:15] <astrobiologist2> and masonry bees
[23:15] <astrobiologist2> could be worse
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[23:32] <astrobiologist2> thanks again all and nite nite
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[00:00] --- Sat Jun 28 2014