highaltitude.log.20140624

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[00:12] <saadzmirza> Hello. Anyone home?
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[00:14] <DL7AD> good night
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[08:58] <mikestir-work> ping upu
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[09:32] <UpuWork> hi mikestir-work
[09:32] <UpuWork> if I'm slow to respond phone is a bit mental this morning
[09:44] <mikestir-work> hi UpuWork. I'm a bit happier with PSM now. It seems that if you set the "donotenteroff" bit and set cyclic tracking explicitly in the mode bits then it doesn't keep turning off with no fix
[09:45] <mikestir-work> I'm still managing it in software as you suggested though
[09:45] <mikestir-work> I wanted to ask you about the comment on the wiki for MAX6 which says not to set the PSM update rate longer than 1 second for the non-TCXO versions of the modules. Do you think this still applies on MAX7?
[09:46] <UpuWork> please try it
[09:46] <UpuWork> I've not looked it since MAX6
[09:47] <mikestir-work> I think for this flight tomorrow I will leave it at 1 second because it's all a bit last minute, but I'll do some more testing on the bench because it does seem to reduce those current spikes you get if you set it longer (as you'd expect)
[09:48] <mikestir-work> I do seem to get a NAK back for the CFG-PM2 request quite a lot though. I'm not sure under what circumstances that happens yet
[09:49] <mikestir-work> battery current at the moment is about 35 mA with the tx on and the GPS in POT state, which seems ok. It should be good for well over 24 hours off a AAA anyway
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[10:13] <Laurenceb_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGG2DhRugY
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[10:20] <Maxell> Laurenceb_: wat
[10:20] <Maxell> Laurenceb_: https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/479172055779139584/D-GTC1UC.jpeg
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[10:31] <Laurenceb_> wait wtf
[10:32] <Laurenceb_> who copied who
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[14:42] <ike> LZ1DEV are you here?
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[15:09] Nick change: BitEvil_ -> SpeedEvil
[15:18] <LZ1DEV> ike: yes
[15:18] <Laurenceb_> http://www2.ppauctions.com/auction.php?id=115
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[15:50] <tweetBot> @AMSAT_UK: #Chelmsford Talk Launch/Tracking 434 MHz Balloons http://t.co/dQfiDgGzan #amsat #hamradio #hamr #ukhas #stem #yourlife
[15:53] <chrisstubbs> mug shot alert
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[16:23] <Turan> Hello, could you give me some advise how I can receive the signals of a NTX2B more clearly. What I get is like "RTTEST BEACONRTTY..." instead of "RTTY TEST BEACON..." although my receiver is placed 30 cm away.
[16:24] <chrisstubbs> That could possibly be a number of things Turan
[16:25] <cm13g09-work> including receiver overloading chrisstubbs?
[16:26] <chrisstubbs> hmm possibly
[16:27] <chrisstubbs> Whats your setup Turan?
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[16:29] <Turan> my setups on dl-fldigi are 50 bauds, 425 carrier shift, 7 bits/character, no parity and 2 stop bits
[16:29] <chrisstubbs> Okay, and what are you using as a radio receiver?
[16:29] <Turan> my receiver is an old Yupiteru MVT-7200
[16:30] <chrisstubbs> Okay, dont have any experience with that model myself. Is the audio connected to a PC through an audio cable connected to a line-in or just held up to the mic?
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[16:32] <Turan> I am using a cable
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[16:34] <chrisstubbs> Okay cool, are you using an antenna on the radio and the NTX2B?
[16:34] <Turan> the receiver has one but not the NTX2B
[16:35] <chrisstubbs> Okay, give that a try. A 16cm or so bit of wire will do for testing if you are just playing with it on breadboard
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[16:38] <chrisstubbs> check out http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payloadantenna when you build your "proper" payload antenna
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[18:16] <arko> pjm_: might be a good time to check out ISEE3
[18:16] <arko> :P
[18:16] <arko> im sure you already knew
[18:16] <pjm_> sappening
[18:16] <pjm_> yeah i am watching it now
[18:18] <arko> :)
[18:18] <arko> are you able to see the modulation?
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[18:19] <arko> rather the steps right now
[18:19] <Babs____> Yo yo arko
[18:19] <arko> yoyo
[18:20] <Babs____> So I have to go to a wedding on the day of the conf :-( poor the babs
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[18:21] <arko> nooooo
[18:21] <arko> damn it
[18:22] <Babs____> I'm really down about it
[18:22] <chrisstubbs> Convince the bride and groom to hold the wedding at the conference ;)
[18:23] <Babs____> Especially since the birth of my daughter I literally have a HAB skunkworks in the nursery
[18:23] <Babs____> Well, it smells quite skunk like
[18:23] <Babs____> chrisstubbs: - will suggest it
[18:23] <arko> haha
[18:24] <Babs____> Eroomde to do a follow up on his gps talk instead of the best mans speech
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[18:24] <Babs____> So I have limited time, but stabilotron II is coming together, got the reaction wheels working and everything
[18:24] <arko> he would need to be intoxicated
[18:25] <arko> nice!
[18:25] <Babs____> Are you down with eroomde in London at any point?
[18:25] <Babs____> (Apart from the conf)
[18:26] <arko> i think so
[18:26] <arko> i'll likely be in ox for 2 days then 3 days in london
[18:26] <arko> maybe 2 days in london
[18:26] <arko> depends on how it plays out
[18:26] <Babs____> Email me if you are and fancy beers
[18:26] <arko> will do!
[18:27] <Babs____> It's almost a year since we met up on my honeymoon and feel it would be improper not to mark the anniversary
[18:27] <arko> hahaha
[18:27] <arko> that as hilarious
[18:27] <arko> fly out here man!
[18:28] <cm13g09> chrisstubbs: ping
[18:29] <Babs____> I'm leaving the baby for 4 days to go the Grands Prix next weekend; already living on borrowed time
[18:29] <chrisstubbs> cm13g09, yo
[18:29] <arko> hah
[18:29] <cm13g09> It's mildly awkward chrisstubbs that I'm supposed to be somewhere else on Tuesday night, in Essex
[18:30] <cm13g09> In fact.... I'm actually in Essex for a whole *week*
[18:30] <cm13g09> although my schedule's so full, barely a gnat's whisker would fit in it....
[18:31] <cm13g09> or, indeed, a gnat's crotchet (you might get the reference)
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[18:33] <chrisstubbs> Ah thinking about coming along to the CARS thing?
[18:33] <cm13g09> if I wasn't somewhere else, yes
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[18:41] <fsphil> they seem to be having trouble commanding isee3
[18:42] <fsphil> it is huffing
[18:43] <arko> i imagine it's going something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LGtJn-L5xEs&t=2m11s
[18:44] <arko> im a terrible human being
[18:48] <fsphil> I'm not crying, it's hayfever
[18:49] <arko> same here, just cutting onions
[18:49] <arko> man that was sad to watch, tried to go all dark humor and ended up bumming myself out
[18:50] <fsphil> lol
[18:50] <fsphil> some of the associated videos are just as bad
[18:50] <arko> Fry's dog dying :(
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[19:03] <Jeremail> hi guys. we(our schools stem club) are about to launch a balloon (tomorrow). Any tips?
[19:05] <craag> Jeremail: Cool! What tracking are you using?
[19:05] <daveake> Check predictions / fill it properly / make sure your tracking is working
[19:05] <Jeremail> about the tracking, we have our own system in place, is there an api for the near.us page?
[19:06] <Jeremail> last week failed, because we didn't have enough gas..
[19:06] <daveake> Could you describe your system a bit?
[19:07] <Jeremail> it's a pi derivative, recording some stuff. It is sent down via 433Mhz wireless (i think it's 433). Basically, down here I get GPS coordinates..
[19:09] <craag> There is an api
[19:09] <craag> http://habitat.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
[19:09] <craag> It's not the most intuitive...
[19:10] <daveake> Jeremail, cool, what transmitter and what receiver?
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[19:10] <mfa298> if you're sending it down based on the stuff on the ukhas.org.uk wiki then hopefully it's done in a way dl-fldigi can decode in which case the api is sorted for you.
[19:12] <mfa298> what sort of Pi derivative is it ?
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[19:17] <Jeremail> Okay, the system is a bit weird.
[19:17] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:17] <Jeremail> hu Lunar_Lander
[19:17] <mattbrejza> oxford? malmesbury? cheltenham?
[19:18] <Jeremail> We have the main CPU board (it has no name) which sends via a NRF905 with an external omnidirectional antenna from the bottom which is semi shielded. We then receive it with one stationary omni and a portable parabol in the chase vehicle
[19:19] <craag> What device are you using to receive it?
[19:19] <craag> Sounds like you've put a good amount of effort into this :)
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[19:20] <Jeremail> GPS & Picture data is sent to the receiving ends (Both headless rasperry pi's, with a 3G/Wifi dongle) which relay them to JereChat (my chat network, unimportant) and then we have a passive javascript file that we can pull up on any browser where we can see it's current status and pictures & shenanigans as well as data from various sensors
[19:20] <Jeremail> mattbrejza : mean me?
[19:20] <mattbrejza> yea i was just looking thru notams for tomorrow
[19:21] <Jeremail> oh, we're from SW uk as in cornwall.
[19:21] <Jeremail> and yes, we know that that's risky
[19:21] <mattbrejza> bodmin
[19:21] <mattbrejza> well you have a lrage target
[19:21] <Jeremail> yea bodmin, why? xD
[19:22] <mattbrejza> just being nosy
[19:22] <cm13g09> mattbrejza: the wonders of launching the South West
[19:22] <cm13g09> you at least get the rest of the UK as buffer space if it goes walkies on the prevailing wind!
[19:22] <Jeremail> well
[19:23] <Jeremail> last weeks (failed) launch was predicted to say hello to the english channel
[19:23] <Jeremail> so the system was designed to send everythign back so we don't lose sensordata or pictures etc
[19:23] <daveake> Well tomorrow's predictions don't take it very far so that's good
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[19:23] <mfa298> Jeremail: do you plan on publishing diagrams, code etc. of what you've setup. I suspect several of us would be interested to see what you've done and potentially see how it can work with habhub/spacenearus or how they could potentially be improved
[19:24] <Jeremail> the code is a real mess and it crashes after it's been runnign for 4 hours xD
[19:24] <fsphil> I'd be interested in how you're sending images
[19:24] <Jeremail> the new version today lasted 10
[19:25] <fsphil> I've done something similar
[19:25] <Jeremail> fsphil : octet streams, ~ 200kb/s with 9zip and tar compression which comes down to like 20ish kb
[19:26] <mattbrejza> whats the over the air specs? like 1kb/s using the built in modem on the modules?
[19:26] <mfa298> if you're willing to share you may find others are willing to help tidy up the code base etc. there's a few people interested in what else we can get down over a radio link
[19:27] <cm13g09> evening mattbrejza
[19:27] <cm13g09> no
[19:27] <cm13g09> evening mfa298
[19:27] <mattbrejza> :(
[19:27] <cm13g09> sorry mattbrejza
[19:27] <fsphil> Jeremail: not sure what that means :) is it taking a jpeg and compressing it with 9zip? (7zip?)
[19:28] <cm13g09> habit dictates that mfa298 is on m<tab>
[19:28] <cm13g09> and he wasn't!
[19:28] <mfa298> evening cm13g09
[19:28] <fsphil> evening mattbrejza
[19:28] <fsphil> there
[19:28] <mattbrejza> :D
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[19:30] <ike> is it taking a jpeg and compressing it with 9zip? - that is so wrong
[19:30] <Jeremail> It's taking a jpeg
[19:30] <Jeremail> then that jpeg is zipped with compression level 9
[19:31] <daveake> I think we're more interested in the radio side
[19:31] <Jeremail> which is then combined with sensordata and compressed into a trabz2 ball
[19:31] <Jeremail> tarbz*
[19:31] <fsphil> aah
[19:31] <craag> jpeg+gzip_bz
[19:31] <daveake> The reason being that the higher the over-the-air rate, the more signal you'll need.
[19:31] <craag> ultimate data compression!
[19:32] <Jeremail> well. it's really nothing special. it's chopping the file into 16 byte chunks, and sending each chunk twice
[19:32] <Jeremail> so, basically failover
[19:32] <fsphil> have you found that reliable?
[19:32] <craag> Yeah what radio receiver are you using?
[19:32] <daveake> What data rate over the air?
[19:32] <craag> s/failover/redundancy/
[19:33] <Jeremail> craag : redundancy as in each chunk is sent twice
[19:33] <craag> yep
[19:33] <craag> what over the air data rate?
[19:33] <daveake> If it's a high rate, you're going to need to be on the ball chasing to get a good last position before it lands. Unlike most flights you'll be the only guys receiving, so you can't rely on anyone else to get the packets for you.
[19:33] <Jeremail> the mobile one is the same as the sender so nrf 905
[19:33] <ike> Jeremail well next time you will get it right
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[19:34] <Jeremail> about 20kb/s
[19:34] <daveake> That's not a good answer, sorry.
[19:34] <ike> like no jpeg compressing and using module with FEC
[19:34] <craag> 20kb/s is rather high, that'll go out of range very quickly
[19:34] <daveake> High rate + relatively insensitive receiver = you need a good aerial in a good location when receiving
[19:35] <craag> kudos to you on the implementation effort!
[19:36] <mattbrejza> the shannon limit was ~10kb/s at 100km with no special antennas i seem to remember
[19:36] <Jeremail> nah. -76dbm works fine. packet loss is negligable. we tested the stationary receiver and the transmitter at a distance of 7 miles. we received everything
[19:36] <Jeremail> on the ground mind you
[19:36] <daveake> not with a wobbling spinning payload
[19:36] <Jeremail> hmm..
[19:36] <Jeremail> i might reduce the sending speed then..
[19:36] <craag> Good on you for doing that range test though!
[19:37] <daveake> indeed
[19:37] <Jeremail> actually, let's try that. one sec
[19:37] <mattbrejza> the path loss is 113dB at 100km
[19:37] <mattbrejza> (12dBi total antenna gain)
[19:37] <mattbrejza> so thats -100dBm at the rx
[19:37] <Jeremail> yea, we don't expect it to go far though
[19:38] <Jeremail> it's gonna be max 25km up and 70km travel
[19:38] <mattbrejza> well its -107dB loss at 50km
[19:38] <mfa298> and don't forget the impact of high/low temperatures (depending on insulation and what the CPU board is like)
[19:39] <fsphil> 20kb/s would be good enough for low quality video
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[19:40] <Jeremail> fsphil : yes, we got 4fps xD
[19:40] <Jeremail> (at 640x480)
[19:40] <fsphil> nice
[19:41] <fsphil> I normally use 300 or 600 bit/s for images
[19:41] <fsphil> something faster would be great
[19:41] <Jeremail> afk
[19:42] <mattbrejza> (- starts/stops/fec)
[19:43] <fsphil> yay overhead
[19:43] <fsphil> the start and stops are unnecessary for the images
[19:43] <fsphil> just needed to please fldigi
[19:44] <mattbrejza> i think it needs them for bit sync too (as well as byte sync)
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[19:46] <fsphil> there is probably a better way of doing that
[19:49] <fsphil> ooh looks like they're having some luck with ISEE3 now
[19:49] <fsphil> it's accepting commands again
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[19:51] <chris_99> guess you guys have seen http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2667114/Forget-Virgin-Galactic-balloons-edge-space-THIRD-price-Firm-completes-test-flight-ahead-2016-launch.html
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[19:54] <SpeedEvil> http://www.seti.org/weeky-lecture/red-dragon-low-cost-access-surface-mars-using-commercial-capabilities
[19:55] <SpeedEvil> Would be interesting if it wasn't inexplicably blank
[19:56] <tweetBot> @AKA2112: #Chelmsford Talk - Launching and Tracking 434 MHz Balloons http://t.co/K3DoHvGlN9 #hamradio #hamr #ukhas #STEMUK @STEMNET
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[20:00] <daveake> TV alert: BBC4 HD starting now about the Voyager missions
[20:00] <Lunar_Lander> cool, thanks
[20:01] <Jeremail> back.
[20:01] <Jeremail> can habitat do simple post etc. things or do I have to dl/run that code
[20:03] <Jeremail> dem music
[20:04] <LZ1DEV> ike: you rang?
[20:04] <ike> razbira se
[20:04] <ike> iskah da ti se pohvalq
[20:05] <ike> za tova ce mi pristigna 1W modul
[20:05] <ike> za VHF
[20:05] <LZ1DEV> LZ1NY
[20:05] <mfa298> Jeremail: I think you can post data direct to habitat although it's not the easiest interface to use
[20:05] <ike> sega mu tyrsq stek za APRS i tam drugite mu gluposti kato x25 i GPS parser
[20:06] <Jeremail> mfa298 : any docs on that?
[20:06] <mfa298> I think craag posted it earlier
[20:06] <mfa298> 20:09 < craag> http://habitat.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
[20:07] <mfa298> trying to get it working in an evening could be a challenge if the flight is tomorroe
[20:07] <Jeremail> isn't that the stuff fot the app and not the post?
[20:07] <ike> Jeremail have you seen those http://www.semtech.com/apps/product.php?pn=SX1276
[20:08] <ike> it's 433MHz 168 dB link budget chip
[20:08] <ike> and ....
[20:08] <Jeremail> that looks good!
[20:08] <Jeremail> If there is a next time i should use htat xD
[20:09] <mfa298> Jeremail: I think that's all the documentation there is for talking to habitat
[20:09] <mattbrejza> thatll be 168dB with not much datarate, and not legal here anywya
[20:10] <ike> For maximum flexibility the user may decide on the spread spectrum modulation bandwidth (BW), spreading factor (SF) and error correction rate (CR) - this is way better than sending 1 packet 2 times
[20:10] <Jeremail> is it not? mattbrejza why?
[20:10] <mattbrejza> 10mW is the limit
[20:10] <Jeremail> oh
[20:11] <Jeremail> well, we're still legal then xD
[20:11] <ike> mattbrejza I bet that lightnings obey that 10mW rule
[20:12] <mfa298> ike: I looked at a module like that before and to get the high sensitivity you have to use a fairly low data rate and various other options which may not be possible legally (I think the one I looked at was for 868MHz and needed a higher bandwidth than was allowed)
[20:12] <mattbrejza> right
[20:13] <ike> when you are over the ocean you have to respect only ocean laws
[20:13] <LeoBodnar> how's hour GPS watch ike?
[20:13] <ike> some day ...
[20:13] <ike> ;)
[20:13] <Jeremail> huh?
[20:13] <ike> but I find antenna simulator
[20:14] <ike> http://www.qsl.net/4nec2/
[20:14] <ike> so I can make spring antenna
[20:14] <LeoBodnar> 168dB is with private point-point link
[20:14] <LeoBodnar> (ignoring legal power limits)
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[20:19] <ike> well if you TX only 10% of a time at 100mW then you have 10mW average power
[20:19] <ike> so it's ok
[20:20] <mattbrejza> tots legit
[20:20] <LeoBodnar> LoRa is proprietary protocol
[20:21] <ike> but it have FEC and ECC
[20:22] <ike> and better SNR
[20:22] <Jeremail> how are you guys handling gps data transmission?
[20:22] <LeoBodnar> so what?
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[20:23] <ike> compare that to ARPS that is open and free and .......unefficient
[20:23] <LeoBodnar> ffs what's your point?
[20:23] <mattbrejza> FEC and ECC?
[20:23] <LeoBodnar> yes LoRa is more efficient than APRS
[20:23] <LeoBodnar> now what?
[20:24] <ike> you should totally use it
[20:24] <LeoBodnar> should I?
[20:24] <mattbrejza> Jeremail: http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2
[20:24] <LeoBodnar> thanks ike for opening the meaning of world to me
[20:24] <ike> make a new design with that new chip
[20:25] <LeoBodnar> are you an armchair designer?
[20:25] <LeoBodnar> fuck off
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[20:29] Action: mfa298 is pretty sure power limits don't like that. Although if they did I could have some real fun on the way to work 1W transmitter on top the car R4 audio in transmit RF transmit on top of R1.
[20:29] <ProSpectre> evening gents
[20:29] <mfa298> evening ProSpectre
[20:29] <ProSpectre> icarus lost or still in the air?
[20:29] <mfa298> icarus is a test transmission
[20:30] <mfa298> you'll see it appear from time to time as people try decoding the audio sample on the website
[20:30] <ProSpectre> oh ok
[20:31] <mattbrejza> hmm could just change the payload doc so we never see it again
[20:31] <mfa298> I think habmap has a hard coded filter so it doesn't appear
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> a doc with wrong field type would work
[20:32] <mattbrejza> just need to remove a field from it and it shouldnt parse
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> would it not fetch correct doc by field numbers?
[20:32] <mfa298> or we need a new test audio clip for a flight called THISISATEST
[20:33] <mattbrejza> na it just uses the latest doc
[20:33] <LeoBodnar> *total field count
[20:33] <fsphil> Jeremail: most flights use RTTY to transmit data atm
[20:33] <mattbrejza> or in a flight doc
[20:33] <fsphil> it's very simple and has proven to be reliable
[20:33] <fsphil> but very slow
[20:33] <mattbrejza> well we havnt really pushed it yet
[20:33] <Jeremail> which charset does that use?
[20:33] <mattbrejza> ascii
[20:33] <Jeremail> k
[20:34] <mattbrejza> well you could use dotbaud if you really wanted
[20:34] <fsphil> 1200 baud has been done, just about
[20:34] <ProSpectre> anyone in the know of the upu shop adress?
[20:34] <Jeremail> we use that too. just to avoid interferrence (not that stuff would matter, it would prpably clash anyway)
[20:34] <fsphil> nice
[20:34] <ProSpectre> thx
[20:34] <arko> lol
[20:34] <mfa298> snap
[20:35] <fsphil> now you have to buy everything twice, sorry :(
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[20:37] <Upu> I approve
[20:37] <ProSpectre> looks like
[20:37] <ProSpectre> :D
[20:37] <mfa298> although that might not be a huge problem as it'll just save a 2nd order soon after the first one
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[20:57] <ProSpectre> any balloons planed for the comin weekend?
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[20:59] <LeoBodnar> the weather is going to be quite horrible
[21:00] <bertrik> on the ukhas google groups I see a Launch Announcement - Walsall - 10am, Saturday 28th June
[21:00] <ProSpectre> oh ok.
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[21:02] <mfa298> ProSpectre: if you havn't already it's potentially worth joining https://groups.google.com/group/ukhas that way you get launch anouncments (and occasional bits of other stuff)
[21:05] <ProSpectre> nice.
[21:07] <ProSpectre> night all
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[21:09] <Jeremail> Systems just dieing or about to
[21:09] <fsphil> eek
[21:09] <fsphil> do you guys have a project website?
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[21:11] <Jeremail> I am about to start coding it
[21:11] <Jeremail> OMG SYSTEM STILL GOING
[21:11] <Jeremail> sorry 4 that
[21:12] <Jeremail> it's running on 1.7 volts now..
[21:12] <fsphil> launching tomorrow? :)
[21:12] <Jeremail> yep
[21:12] <daveake> this never happens :p
[21:12] <fsphil> lol
[21:12] <fsphil> coding the night before is almost a tradition
[21:12] <mikestir> I suppose I'd better do a launch announcement for this hastily thrown together tracker
[21:12] <aadamson> mikestir, everything come together for tomorrow?
[21:12] <aadamson> missed you last night btw
[21:12] <Jeremail> : daveake what never happens?
[21:12] <daveake> Coding the night before
[21:13] <mikestir> aadamson: just tweaking intervals, trying to decide which olivia mode to use, etc
[21:13] <Jeremail> oh. it does. beleive me
[21:13] <daveake> or updating the firmware as the balloon is being filled
[21:13] <Jeremail> I did that
[21:13] <fsphil> I've never coded something the hour before launch (lie)
[21:13] <Jeremail> last week
[21:13] <aadamson> mikestir, hehe, decisions, decisions :) best of luck, what's it flying on?
[21:13] <daveake> Jeremail, missed sarcasm alert :)
[21:13] <fsphil> or made a quick fix to the code after launch (also lie)
[21:13] <mikestir> 36" foil
[21:13] <Jeremail> No but really
[21:13] <aadamson> ah, excellent
[21:13] <mikestir> which reminds me. how much free lift do I need?
[21:13] <Jeremail> Like, I'm doing the same as the 'pros'
[21:13] <fsphil> lol
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[21:14] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, is the expert, but upu told me 1.5gr
[21:14] <mikestir> ok
[21:14] <Jeremail> but i was actually *trying* to push a system update whilst it was lifting off or about to
[21:14] <daveake> Also nobody ever leaves the payload at home
[21:14] Action: daveake stares at fsphil
[21:14] <Jeremail> and then it crashed. literaly
[21:14] <arko> hahaha
[21:14] <aadamson> the issue with free lift on these little ones... bird poop can bring it down :)
[21:14] <daveake> annd nobody ever leaves the balloons at home
[21:14] Action: daveake stares in mirror
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[21:14] <arko> "i could swear we were suppose to tie something to the end of this rope"
[21:15] <Jeremail> no, we havent done that yet
[21:15] <Jeremail> xD
[21:15] <fsphil> That NEVER happened stop spreading rumours even though it's true
[21:15] <mikestir> aadamson: it's gone into power optimised mode. brb
[21:15] <aadamson> mikestir, where you going to be total payload weight?
[21:15] <aadamson> I saw you had done some things on that... with AAA battery right?
[21:15] <daveake> and nobody ever reboots the chase car Windows PC, during the chase, when it has 6 months of updates to install
[21:16] <Jeremail> lol
[21:16] <mikestir> aadamson: not sure - haven't weighed it yet! not a lot
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[21:16] <aadamson> yeah 15 or less grams is a good number - mine have been too heavy so far
[21:16] <arko> daveake: LOL
[21:16] <Jeremail> this is why our chase vehicles run linux!
[21:16] <fsphil> daveake: at least it came back up afterwards. with windows update that's no guarantee
[21:17] <daveake> true
[21:17] <arko> Jeremail: did you guys recompile the kernal during chase?
[21:17] <Jeremail> I have an out-in-the-field windows tablet though
[21:17] <Jeremail> arko : no, during liftoff
[21:17] <daveake> I installed and edited a chase car tracker during a chase
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[21:17] <Jeremail> dave i will be coding the map thing while in the car xD
[21:17] <fsphil> at least you have a map thing
[21:18] Nick change: SiC- -> SiC
[21:18] <fsphil> I kinda do but it's not great
[21:19] <daveake> Had to use a real map once when there was no 3G and the car sat nav hadn't a clue about the road
[21:19] <fsphil> I'd like a satnav that can accept coordinates directly from a program
[21:19] <daveake> yup
[21:20] <Jeremail> http://puu.sh/9IAic/f51096b047.jpg pciture just taken \o/
[21:20] <Jeremail> fsphil i don't
[21:20] <fsphil> you can really see the curvature of the cable in that shot
[21:20] <Jeremail> xD
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[21:21] <Jeremail> 1 sec, moving the cam
[21:22] <mikestir> aadamson: payload is 6g without the snap off removed. battery is 7.6g according to the datasheet. then plus a bit of bubble wrap or something for insulation
[21:22] <Jeremail> tracking system, shot by payload on 1764 mv http://puu.sh/9IAw5/b27d5a460f.jpg
[21:23] <Jeremail> it did crash once
[21:23] <Jeremail> but that caused a brownout
[21:23] <Jeremail> which caused a reboot
[21:23] <Jeremail> I will shake-test it now
[21:23] <aadamson> mikestir, sounds like you'll be right in there
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[21:27] <mikestir> aadamson: average current consumption for current setup is 28mA (tx every 30 seconds)
[21:28] <mikestir> should be good for a couple of days
[21:28] <aadamson> on the battery side?
[21:28] <mikestir> yes
[21:28] <mikestir> 2V rail, +6dBm out
[21:28] <aadamson> one mfsk packet every 30 seconds?
[21:28] <mikestir> yes
[21:28] <mikestir> olivia 8/1000
[21:29] <aadamson> you should have a good flight if you can stay away from any *rain/moisture/bird poop* :)
[21:29] <mikestir> hope so
[21:29] <mikestir> doing this one for the school I helped out with the up/down flight last october
[21:29] <aadamson> I had made a fatal mistake in some calculations on my last flight (because I didn't check it prior).
[21:30] <aadamson> at 2v, the 4463 can only do 15.5dbm :) - 35ish mW :)
[21:30] <aadamson> so much for using a value to program for 50mW.... I got 20 out ...
[21:30] <aadamson> that's only 3db better than my 10 so doubt that would have made any difference to the ISS :)
[21:31] <aadamson> should have checked that and remembered the voltage to TX power curve... duh
[21:31] <mikestir> 4060 should do 10mW at 2V, but I used cheap multilayer inductors. I'd probably get the full 10dBm if I fitted wirewound ones
[21:31] <mikestir> I can get 10dBm at Vcc=3V
[21:31] <mikestir> I'm gambling that 6dBm will be more than enough for mfsk
[21:31] <aadamson> yeah and I can get 100mW at 3v3 as well... where my mind was when I programmed the power value
[21:31] <aadamson> you should be fine
[21:32] <aadamson> I'm amazed at how well 10mW does on afsk
[21:32] <aadamson> and I checked that as well, I was dead nuts on 10mW it was just my higher power mode that was broken
[21:34] <mikestir> my speed measurement appears to be total nonsense
[21:34] <mikestir> does spacenear expect that value to be in m/s or km/h?
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[21:37] <aadamson> mikestir, payload configuration for speed, is type string so not sure, ask on #habhub, maybe someone will know there
[21:38] <aadamson> opps... ignore that!
[21:38] <mikestir> it's float
[21:38] <aadamson> it's configurable as to type
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[21:38] <aadamson> mikestir, yeah, I didn't click the field just saw it come up with string and reacted
[21:38] <Kickball> Hey
[21:39] <Kickball> Can I ask some questions and possibly get some help?
[21:39] <mikestir> ask away
[21:41] <mikestir> aadamson: not being in PSM hammers the current consumption
[21:41] <aadamson> so you aren't going to run it in PSM?
[21:41] <mikestir> yes it's dynamic
[21:41] <aadamson> ah ok, and yes, when you aren't there, it's ugly
[21:41] <mikestir> it will switch to psm if it has a lock, as per Upu's recommendation
[21:41] <aadamson> I use the exact same approach
[21:42] <aadamson> lock and sats > X
[21:42] <Kickball> I'm an A Level student (Computing/Math/Computer networking) and I'm working with a mate (Electronics/Physics/Maths). We plan on setting up a HAB or helium balloon with a R-Pi and sensors and just recording data as it travels.
[21:42] <mikestir> it can also do the pedestrian/flight mode thing, but I've disabled that for now
[21:42] <aadamson> or else in max performance
[21:42] <aadamson> yeah you'll be bouncing right off that limit it's what 18km?
[21:42] <aadamson> you'll be below that however
[21:42] <mikestir> pedestrian mode limit is a lot lower
[21:43] <DL7AD_mobile2> 12km at ublox
[21:43] <mfa298> Kickball: a few people have done that before and it works. Although if you're just doing basic telemetry an Arduino might be better (lower power, less heat produced etc)
[21:43] <mfa298> If you're going the Pi route a Model-A is recommended
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[21:43] <mikestir> DL7AD_mobile2: in pedestrian mode it's 9
[21:43] <aadamson> mikestir, ped is max alt of 9000m, you'll be right there most likely
[21:44] <aadamson> it's pretty easy to add that
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[21:44] <Kickball> My current plans and purchases are here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i8x3SQ3_Z8uLLGwIPTT2_bpP9TkMUalBS_aYITga2g8/edit?usp=sharing) I would just like to get as much data as possible. As you can see on the spreadsheet we have got almost every sensor possible. We also plan on using a 3G dongle to get databack to us as
[21:44] <mfa298> you should find some stuff about using the Pi on the ukhas.org.uk wiki and some more on Dave Akermans blog
[21:44] <Kickball> We don't plan on getting the PI back as it will probs drift quite far.
[21:44] <mikestir> Kickball: if you're lifting a Pi it isn't going to go that far
[21:45] <mfa298> 3G is unlikely to work above ~1km
[21:45] <aadamson> mikestir, I was thinking it was higher than that... with a light payload, you'll be int he 7-8km range I would think
[21:45] <aadamson> and max on ped is 9km
[21:45] <mikestir> aadamson: I think that's about right, but I'm just going to leave it in flight mode for this test
[21:45] <aadamson> oh
[21:45] <mikestir> get some data back
[21:45] <aadamson> so it will be in flight
[21:45] <aadamson> but won't switch to ped
[21:45] <mikestir> the firmware is a massive rush job here anyway!
[21:45] <aadamson> I thought it was in ped only
[21:46] <aadamson> my bad
[21:46] <Kickball> How far do you think it will go with a R-PI Model 2
[21:46] <Kickball> *B
[21:46] <mikestir> no it switches to flight. I turned off the dynamic switching
[21:46] <mfa298> that gps might not work that well at altitude the Ublox from habsupplies is known to work
[21:46] <aadamson> you'll be fine then
[21:47] <mfa298> Kickball: I'd *highly* recommend a model-a rather than a B. it's lower power so improves the current consumption and reduces the heat
[21:48] <Kickball> Alright, any other changes than the GPS & R-Pi
[21:48] <mikestir> more helium
[21:48] <mfa298> if they're still doing it CPC had the Model-A and Pi Cam for ~£30
[21:49] <Kickball> Also what is the chance I would get it back? How far would it go?
[21:49] <mfa298> predict.habhub.org use 5m/s for ascent/decsent rate and probably around 30km for burst altitude
[21:50] <mikestir> chance of recovery is high if you pay attention to the predictor
[21:50] <fsphil> with careful (and/or poor) filling it's possible to float a balloon and send it a very long way away
[21:50] <mfa298> also think about how you get the data back - 3G /GSM won't work above around 1km
[21:51] <mikestir> and since you should plan to land away from a built up area, it's quite likely you'll have no signal when it lands
[21:51] <fsphil> 3G probably less than 1km
[21:51] <DL7AD_mobile2> Yes
[21:52] <DL7AD_mobile2> I have problems to make a call even at 2k feet out of my aitplanr
[21:52] <Kickball> How would I transmit data back then?
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[21:53] <mfa298> most people here uses something like the ntx2b (hab supplies) and send back data via rtty (think a really slow serial connection)
[21:53] <mfa298> there's lots of good information on the ukhas wiki.
[21:53] <mfa298> you can also do images (nothing too big) using ssdv.
[21:54] <mfa298> you'll need a decent radio receiver but you'll potentially get help receiving the data so even if you don't get all of it the data is received
[21:56] <mfa298> also whever is charging £54 for a Model-A and camera is ripping you off
[21:56] <mfa298> cpc.farnell.com/raspberry-pi/raspberry-pi-a-camera/raspberry-pi-model-a-camera-bundle/dp/SC13212
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[21:57] <Kickball> Would this work? How high should I bid? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Yaesu-FT-790R-II-UHF-all-mode-transceiver-complete-with-FL-7025-amplifier-/171365360762?pt=UK_Mobile_Phones_Communication_Ham_Radio_Receivers_Transceivers&hash=item27e62be47a
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[21:57] <MightyMik> first, ya need some money
[21:58] <Kickball> How much would this project cost? And would there be any posibility of sponsorship from companies or organizations?
[21:59] <mfa298> for testing you can use a cheap rtlsdr but most people here prefer a decent radio like the 790 for tracking
[22:00] <Kickball> Surely that ebay link would be all I would need.
[22:00] <Kickball> Well the item being sold there.
[22:00] <mikestir> although I think most people here are hams so can justify buying a transceiver
[22:00] <mfa298> note that with the 790 you can't legally use it to transmit (but it's fairly easy to get an Amateur Radio license that does allow you to transmit)
[22:00] <mfa298> I think the 790's can go for around £100
[22:00] <MightyMik> they don't make 'em like that anymore
[22:01] <Kickball> I know somone with a ARL, should I get in contact with them and see if I can borrow their radio?
[22:01] <MightyMik> need a chinese copy of that : )
[22:01] <mikestir> Kickball: sounds like a good idea
[22:01] <Kickball> Well receiver.
[22:01] <Kickball> Alright
[22:01] <mfa298> depends what radio(s) they have but thats potentially a good option
[22:02] <mfa298> a lot of people only have FM radios for the higher bands which won't be suitable
[22:02] <mfa298> as a starting point an rtlsdr is cheap (under £10)
[22:03] <MightyMik> ya... vhf/uhf SSB is not easy to find
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[22:03] <MightyMik> maybe as a 'portable'
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[22:03] <Lunar_Lander> night!
[22:03] <mfa298> but you then you need a laptop to run it and they're not as sensitive as a good amateur radio
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[22:03] <Kickball> mfa298: Would that work assuming my HAB travelled around 100km
[22:04] <Kickball> As it predicts
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[22:04] <mikestir> yes. as long as it's above your horizon you'll get it
[22:04] <mfa298> people have used the rtlsdr's to track their balloons. The main thing is to have a decent antenna to go with it.
[22:04] <Kickball> How much are they?
[22:05] <MightyMik> budget for an antenna as well
[22:05] <mfa298> the rtlsdr's should be under £10
[22:05] <Kickball> How much would this project cost? And would there be any posibility of sponsorship from companies or organizations?
[22:05] <MightyMik> last one i bought was $9
[22:05] <Kickball> How much would the antennas be?
[22:05] <mfa298> it's a cheap TV tuner that someone found could be hacked into being a software defined radio (SDR)
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[22:06] <mfa298> cost wise Balloon and Helium are potentially the highest costs. (habhub.org/calc will help you work out what balloon you need for a given payload weight)
[22:07] <mfa298> when usinf the calc aim for around 5m/s ascent rate
[22:07] <malclocke> Kickball, I'm just finishing my first tracker build, total cost in the picture is about $110 NZD, which is about 50 quid https://plus.google.com/photos?pid=6027927978754103778&oid=109855165514267244938
[22:07] <MightyMik> diamond x 50 about $100
[22:07] <mikestir> or you could make an antenna: http://www.mike-stirling.com/files/IMG_20130618_075407.jpg
[22:07] <bertrik> we use a diamond-x50-like antenna, rtlsdr stick and a habamp with good results at our hackerspace in the hague, netherlands
[22:07] <mfa298> you'll also find the predictions change over time so sometimes it will travel a long way, other times it will land close to the launch site
[22:08] <mfa298> for the chase car I think the watson WSM-270 has been reasonably popular - about £20 on CPC from memory
[22:09] <malclocke> mikestir, that's nice, do you have plans for that? is there a balun in the box?
[22:10] <mikestir> malclocke: it's based on dimensions from that yagi calculator program. made from overflow pipe, pipe clips and welding rods. It uses a quarter wave coaxial balun which isn't in the picture there - it just loops out of the box
[22:11] <mikestir> total cost about 15 quid, and I have a stack of spare welding rods
[22:11] <mfa298> one thing to remember is that if you recover the payload everything is re-useable apart from the Balloon and Helium
[22:11] <malclocke> mikestir, cool. I've made a three element one with tape measure but I want to make a 7 element one.
[22:11] <mikestir> I need to fix it. I lost one of the elements on a DF hunt the other week
[22:12] <Kickball> would anyone be interested in funding this?
[22:12] <mikestir> I wouldn't have minded so much if we hadn't have come last :)
[22:12] <mfa298> if you're close to someone that launches a lot you may be able to get help from them and potentially use Hydrogen instead of Helium which is cheaper (higher up front cost and possibly slightly higher risk for a first attempt on your own)
[22:12] <malclocke> I think tape measure is probably not necessary for 70cm, but I don't have any welding rods. have a box of bicycle spokes though, might try those
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[22:13] <mikestir> I bought the welding rods especially. TIG (aluminium/magnesium). off ebay
[22:13] <mfa298> Kickball: what sort of part of the country are you from ?
[22:14] <Kickball> how much do you think the balloon will weigh?
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[22:14] <Kickball> i'm from lincoln
[22:14] <mfa298> depends on the balloon
[22:16] <Kickball> would buying the materials and making the balloon myself be a good idea?
[22:16] <mikestir> Kickball: you need to decide what your payload will be, then you can estimate required power consumption and therefore how much of a battery pack you will need. You can then estimate the weight of the payload, then use the burst calculator to determine the size of balloon you need for your desired altitude.
[22:16] <mfa298> if you're using the burst calc stick in the payload weight (what you think the Pi, box, sensors, batteries and parachute) will weigh. Put in a target altitude or ascent rate, then change balloons until you find something that gives altitude / ascent rate your happy with.
[22:18] <mfa298> you can find various balloons that are availalble in the UK at http://randomsolutions.co.uk/Random_Aerospace/Balloons.html
[22:18] <Kickball> what type of balloons are there out there?
[22:18] <Kickball> sorry didn't see the link
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[22:19] <Kickball> what type of balloons would you recommend?
[22:19] <mfa298> depends on the payload weight and how high you want to get it.
[22:20] <Kickball> what's the legal maximum height the balloon could go?
[22:20] <mfa298> assuming the payload was around 500g and you were happy with 30km then according to the calc you could use a Hwoyee 1000 and just under 3m^3 of Helium
[22:22] <mfa298> the legal bits are more about getting permision to launch, I don't think there's any legel max height (at least not that you can reach with a balloon)
[22:23] <Kickball> how low do you think i could get the payload to be?
[22:25] <Kickball> would the Clansman 320 or a baofeng uv-5r be able to receive radio signals from the rpi/arduino.
[22:25] <mfa298> as in weight?
[22:25] <Kickball> Yeah as in weight.
[22:25] <mfa298> uv-5r isn't suitable as its fm only
[22:26] <mfa298> the lightest payloads people fly are around 10g, but thats doing custom pcb with microcontroller
[22:26] <malclocke> Kickball, you have your component spreadsheet so just add up the weights
[22:26] <Kickball> Yeah would 125 be reasonable that amount of helium is quite expensive and not possible without sponsorship
[22:27] <Kickball> Yes but I don't know basket, balloon or parachute's weight.
[22:27] <mfa298> for the ukhas method you need a radio receiver capable of SSB
[22:28] <mfa298> for the calc you don't need the balloon weight (it does that bit for you)
[22:28] <mikestir> I think the clansman is HF only so no
[22:28] <mattbrejza> (FMs not too bad either ;) )
[22:28] Action: mfa298 slaps zeusbot
[22:29] <mfa298> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide <- that page has a list of radios people have used successfully
[22:30] <mfa298> the couple marked as wideband receivers are probably the cheapest options
[22:30] <MightyMik> maybe something like this w/ an antenna? http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/widerxvr/4011.html
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[22:33] <mfa298> The way I might go about this is to get the Pi, gps, ntx2b and some sensors and get that working. When you're getting close to having something that works you can start looking at what power it draws so you can then look at how to power it from batteries (probably Energizer Ultimate Lithiums), you should then have an idea of weight so you can size a suitable parachute and balloon.
[22:34] <mfa298> you don't necessarily need to get all the bits in one go, get a pi and some sensors, or pi and gps, or pi and ..., and start coding bits, then add to it.
[22:36] <mfa298> and hang around here and get involved in tracking some flights as you'll start to pick up lots of useful stuff.
[22:38] <Kickball> Where would I buy the NTX2B transmitter?
[22:38] <mfa298> same place for a ublox gps breakout
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[22:39] <Kickball> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=71_63&product_id=92
[22:39] <Kickball> That one?
[22:40] <mfa298> tha's the easiest way to start.
[22:41] <mfa298> at some point there will be a ready made board for the Pi with ublox gps and ntx2b but I'm not sure what the timescale is (it's called pi in the sky)
[22:42] <Kickball> http://www.pridopia.co.uk/pi-p-hab.html
[22:42] <Kickball> This one?
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[22:47] <mfa298> not sure, that might be an earlier protype or that might have been someone elses version
[22:48] <Kickball> well I want to order it now, so would you please be able to give me the link to the right one?
[22:48] <Kickball> I did not mean to be rude if it came across like that.
[22:49] <mfa298> looks like Daves got the start of some info of the board on his blog http://www.daveakerman.com/?page_id=1563
[22:49] <mattbrejza> https://twitter.com/pitsproject
[22:49] <mfa298> I'd suspect this one would be sold via hab supplies
[22:51] <Kickball> for me that link is a blank page, with no content.
[22:52] <Kickball> http://puu.sh/9IHIX/796aa9e912.jpg
[22:52] <craag> Yeah it is for me too
[22:52] <mfa298> there's a few optinos on the Pi in the Sky dropdown menu on Dave's blog but it looks like it's not complete yet.
[22:52] <craag> There's some info under the menu at the top
[22:53] <mattbrejza> just keep an eye on the twitter and ask dave when hes around
[22:53] <craag> Take a look at the twitter though
[22:53] <mfa298> I might have copied the link from one of the blank pages
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[22:54] <Kickball> Alright,night guys.
[22:54] <mfa298> it's well worth a read through some of the other stuff Dave's done. I think he's the most prolific sender of Pi's into the atmosphere
[22:54] <Kickball> Thanks alot, will probs see you tomorrow.
[22:54] <Kickball> Alright will do.
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[22:55] <Jeremail> anyone able to help with direct requests to spacenear.us?
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[22:56] <craag> Jeremail: Direct requests?
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[22:56] <craag> You mean embedding the map?
[22:56] <craag> in another page?
[22:56] <Jeremail> craag : as in post/get requests to state the current position of my balloon
[22:57] <Jeremail> so I can use the map to track it rather than having to do my own thing
[22:57] <craag> you'll have to POST to habitat
[22:57] <craag> habitat is the database that we use
[22:57] <Jeremail> do you know how?
[22:58] <craag> roughly... I think I posted you the documentation earlier
[22:58] <mattbrejza> http://habitat.habhub.org/jse/#schemas/payload_telemetry.json send it json with that schema
[22:58] <mikestir> Jeremail: you can pinch the source code from this if you want http://www.mike-stirling.com/hab/
[22:58] <mikestir> it pulls from habitat
[22:59] <mattbrejza> what language for a start?
[22:59] <craag> I've got an example in javascript here:
[22:59] <craag> https://github.com/philcrump/tk102-gw/blob/master/daemon/gateway.js#L114-L157
[22:59] <craag> That submits as a chasecar though.
[23:00] <craag> (hence 'listener_telemetry')
[23:02] <DL7AD> morning
[23:02] <Jeremail> do I need to worry about the mysql stuff?
[23:02] <mfa298> mysql stuff ?
[23:02] <craag> Jeremail: No! just the selected lines
[23:02] <craag> It's a HTTP request
[23:03] <Jeremail> oh ok xD
[23:03] <Jeremail> I don't know mysql :P
[23:03] <craag> This particular program loads a position from mysql, then submits it to the API
[23:03] <Jeremail> oh ok
[23:04] <mfa298> oh craag's code, I dont think habitat has any mysql in it
[23:04] <craag> no habitat is couchdb-based
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[23:04] <Jeremail> what are you GETing?
[23:05] <mfa298> and postgres for the snus interface (but no need to worry about that)
[23:05] <craag> Jeremail: You have to GET to /_uuids to get a document id first
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[23:06] <craag> You then make a POST request of a new 'document' with that id, and your data
[23:06] <craag> 'str' is my rubbish variable name for the document id that was returned by the GET
[23:06] <Jeremail> OOH
[23:06] <Jeremail> I inderstand :D
[23:08] <mattbrejza> fairly sure for payload_telem you can sha256 the document and use that as the id
[23:08] <craag> ALthough you have to be prepared for a 'document id taken' response?
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[23:09] <Jeremail> yeah
[23:09] <Jeremail> what's that hash stuff about
[23:09] <mattbrejza> lol perhaps
[23:09] <Jeremail> the _raw data stuff
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[00:00] --- Wed Jun 25 2014