highaltitude.log.20140506

[00:07] <DL7AD> good night!
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[01:54] <g0pai_ian> LeoBodnar: after your N.Korea overflight, it would be sad if entry into US airspace met with a hostile reception. You need to arrange strategically placed APRS equipped vessels along your seaward route.
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[07:48] <WillDWork> so, is the UKHAS conference set for 16th Aug now?
[07:49] <fsphil> I suppose it will only be official when the hall is booked
[07:53] <WillDWork> I suppose so :)
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[08:11] <amell> http://amsat-uk.org/2014/05/05/asian-trek-for-b-47-party-balloon/
[08:15] <eroomde> how was ears overall, amell?
[08:16] <amell> It was good. I missed Sat due to family conflicts. Rod launched a V2 on M1400 on monday, and passed L3.
[08:16] <amell> You should come along next time
[08:17] <eroomde> family conflicts e.e. family commitments conflicting?
[08:17] <eroomde> or like rooaar families at war
[08:17] <amell> yes, sons 5th birthday party& couldnt miss that ;)
[08:17] <eroomde> i'd like to get along soon
[08:17] <eroomde> not so near EARS now
[08:17] <eroomde> i used to just be 20 minutes away
[08:18] <eroomde> maybe I'll do by L1 one day :)
[08:18] <eroomde> my*
[08:18] <amell> I wanted to do mine, but too gusty, it would have disappeared off the range.
[08:18] <amell> i need to finish my fat rocket, so I have more options.
[08:18] <eroomde> yeah
[08:19] <eroomde> i have something that might get me an L1 but not go that high
[08:19] <amell> the two I had simmed out at 1.5k and 2K feet on H.
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[08:21] <amell> nearly finished my 4 7 ft rocket. will do 8K on a J.
[08:21] <SIbot> In real units: 7 ft = 2.13 m
[08:22] <eroomde> H is the smallest L1, right?
[08:22] <amell> yep.
[08:22] <amell> I think you can do I for L1 too.
[08:22] <eroomde> yeah
[08:22] <eroomde> I have something that needs a G
[08:22] <amell> cath b was there all weekend. I think you probably know her.
[08:22] <eroomde> but that'd be too small to qualiy i s
[08:23] <eroomde> yes
[08:23] <eroomde> wel hav mt her acoupof tims
[08:23] <eroomde> ah, usb drver has cocked up
[08:24] <eroomde> keeps dropping characters
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[08:30] <amell> eroomde: https://plus.google.com/photos/102983699719135263206/albums/6010220898689468513
[08:32] <amell> see pic 24. That is the O6300 :)
[08:40] <nats`> hi boyz
[08:41] <DL1SGP> salut nats
[08:41] <nats`> guten morgen DL1SGP
[08:41] <nats`> :)
[08:42] <eroomde> nice amell
[08:42] <eroomde> shame it didn't go up
[08:42] <amell> The first was scrubbed due to an O-Ring in one of the injectors getting damaged at some stage which caused a large leak part way through the fill.
[08:42] <amell> With loads of help we managed to drop the combustion chamber and replace the damaged injector and re fit all the fill tubes.
[08:42] <amell> The second launch was scrubbed due to not getting a clear vent to indicate the tank was full, this was due to a couple of things,
[08:42] <amell> First, we think a small part of the grain or some other foreign body entered one of the fill pipes when we replaced the injectors, this was then blown into the very small hole in the vent pipe and restricted the flow of escaping gasses, this in turn slowed the fill causing the pressure to drop and the GSE fill solenoids to over heat and lock shut.
[08:42] <amell> We are now looking at a new launch date.
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[08:43] <eroomde> the vening rule isquite tedious
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[08:44] <amell> well, if you dont see a vent, you dont know if you have enough juice to be safe...
[08:45] <eroomde> in a world where you don't do instrumentation, sure
[08:45] <eroomde> but i can promise you that in my propulsion work we certainly don't know that we've filled a tank when we start to see it leaking!
[08:46] <amell> ok. i dont know if they had that level of instrumentation
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[08:52] <eroomde> the usb driver bug seems to have been killed off by shuffling the orifi into which my various usb things are plugged into my pc
[08:53] <eroomde> as an american might say (arko?), 'go figure'
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[08:57] <LeoBodnar> some full speed USB devices work much better via high speed hub
[08:59] <LeoBodnar> if the hub is multi transaction translation capable
[08:59] <LeoBodnar> which most are
[09:00] <LeoBodnar> http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1205797&print=yes
[09:00] <eroomde> well this has not been unstable for about 3 years on this pc
[09:01] <eroomde> but i just put a new pci card in this morning and so unplugged everything
[09:01] <eroomde> then plugged it all back in randomly
[09:01] <eroomde> and it started causing problems
[09:01] <LeoBodnar> i have just unloaded some useless info on ya
[09:01] <LeoBodnar> lol
[09:01] <LeoBodnar> but good knowledege anyway
[09:01] <LeoBodnar> as it is counterintuitive
[09:02] <LeoBodnar> 12Mbps USB things often work better (or altogether) via HS hub
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[09:04] <Guest57974> #
[09:06] <LeoBodnar> Dual ARM design. Just as humans have a left and right brain, we designed our controller to mirror two sides of the brain. The left side of the controller uses one ARM chip to control all motion calculations, thermal control and sensors. The right side uses another ARM chip to handle the user interface. This allows simultaneous processing of both motion control and the user interface during printing.
[09:06] <LeoBodnar> so full of shit, wow https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/amaker3d/amaker-worlds-first-dual-arm-open-source-3d-printe
[09:07] <fsphil> ran out of IO pins eh?
[09:07] <LeoBodnar> single 4-bit MCU would be capable of doung that I am afraid
[09:08] <LeoBodnar> I suspect pinching UI from one source and PID from another and inability to integrate into into one time scheduler
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[09:09] <eroomde> a lot of kickstarter is full of shit
[09:09] <number10> jcoxon - is this a new 868 module or same one? https://www.sequoia.co.uk/product.php?id=1878 (needs a log-in to get datasheet)
[09:09] <eroomde> designed by people likewise
[09:11] <LeoBodnar> " To achieve desired quality performance, the entire printer is designed from bottom up."
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[09:12] <LeoBodnar> translates as "Our printer is good."
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[09:21] <nats`> let's take the amaker and put a lpc4370 inside !! first 3 arm core 3D printer in the world
[09:21] <nats`> made to work like my awesome brains
[09:21] <nats`> :D
[09:21] <nats`> Use of ARM processor to enable 32 microstepping with motors.
[09:21] <nats`> oO
[09:21] <nats`> I'm not sure to understand why arm is involved here
[09:22] <nats`> maybe they already hired a marketing guy
[09:22] <nats`> ohh good idea they don't use flexible coupling between motor and screw
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[09:23] Action: DL1SGP serves nats` a fresh cup of coffee... tout sera bien, t'inquietes pas :)
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[09:25] <nats`> Ordering of customized lead screw stepper motor <= means it's an open hardware project but if you need replacement part.... just go the f*k out of here
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[09:31] <KT5TK1> Since you experts don't like the amaker, what would be a good 3D printer that's still affordable for the hobbyist? For example to print a customized balloon fill nozzle (to stay on topic).
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[09:33] <nats`> KT5TK1 I didn't say I don't like amaker I say almost all their presentation is bullshit
[09:33] <nats`> especially the ARM part
[09:34] <KT5TK1> No honestly, I'm looking for a good machine, including the controller.
[09:35] <nats`> I don't know for hobbyist our plastic manufacturer use a printer with liquid refill but seems out of a price range
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[09:35] <Laurenceb__> just get SLS nylon parts from somewhere decent
[09:35] <nats`> http://www.creatix3d.com/contents/imprimantes-3d-professionnelles-1/imprimantes-3d/imprimantes-3d-professionnelles-2
[09:36] <nats`> yep maybe the best idea Laurenceb__ :)
[09:37] <mfa298> that amaker stuff looks to be mostly marketing BS. if the print job is several hours updating a percentage display around every minute is probably real time enough (and I think the AVR based printers will update their display more often than that)
[09:37] <Laurenceb__> this looks exciting
[09:37] <Laurenceb__> http://www.3dsystems.com/quickparts/prototyping-pre-production/multijet-printing-mjp
[09:38] <Laurenceb__> possibly higher resolution than SLS
[09:38] <mfa298> KT5TK1: I've used a couple of clones of the MakerBot and they seem reasonable. The main one I've used is a FlashForge Creator which I think is under $1000
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[09:38] <nats`> yep Laurenceb__ and they are usable
[09:38] <nats`> I mean in final product
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[09:40] <KT5TK1> Thanks. 3D printing service is certainly an option for precision parts. I was thinking of something where you have an idea on Saturday and then want to launch the object on Sunday on your balloon :)
[09:41] <KT5TK1> So I'll have a look a FlashForge Creator...
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[09:42] <mfa298> There's a whole range of things out there a lot of which are based on the same designs and firmware.
[09:42] <mfa298> some seem to be built better than others
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[09:43] <amell> been thinking about starting a 3D printing and laser cutting business.
[09:43] <amell> Theres a lot of competition though
[09:44] <eroomde> yes
[09:44] <eroomde> laser cutting would be useful
[09:44] <amell> low margins, need a seriously industrial throughput to make profit
[09:45] <amell> still chewing over business ideas. finished last job a couple of weeks ago.
[09:45] <mfa298> with the current range of cheaper 3D printers I think they can also require a degree of handholding. I've had some odd effects at times - the right thing was shown in the software but half the design didn't try to print.
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[09:46] <amell> oh a business would need mid-range kit, hit start and forget stuff
[09:47] <mfa298> Having used a 3D printer at work a bit I'm half tempted to get one of the cheaper ones to be able to chuck out custom boxes / stands for things reasonably quickly.
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[09:48] <amell> why would you buy your own? is the problem wanting things fast?
[09:48] <mfa298> problem with the mid-range stuff is it starts getting expensive so you'll need a lot of work or good margins to make it pay for itself
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[09:49] <mfa298> if you're tryint to make something specific it's nice to do a rough design, print it out see where you got it wrong and do another one quickly rather than havign to wait a week for it to be done and posted
[09:49] <KT5TK1> wanting things fast? -- Mainly when I want something when other people don't normally work.
[09:50] <amell> its a lot of money to pay out for getting something sooner.
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[09:50] <mfa298> for me that's why I've not bought one yet. But it's on the list of toys to think about getting.
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[09:52] <Laurenceb__> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Wantrepreneur&defid=5063315
[09:53] <KT5TK1> amell: You're probably right, but hey, if it's below $1000 it may be useful to have such a machine available whenever needed. Given that you can really use he parts that it produces.
[09:54] <KT5TK1> But of course I have no clue if those machines meet my expectations. That's why I'm asking.
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[09:57] <KT5TK1> Because there are so many of them out there I wasn't really able to find the best one for my purpose. If someone has experience with them, I'd be glad to hear comments.
[09:58] <eroomde> i'm basically unimpressed with extrusion 3d printers
[09:58] <eroomde> i've yet to see anything non-ugly produced by one
[09:58] <eroomde> they belong to the same world as dremels and adjustable spanners
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[10:01] <KT5TK1> dremels ... hmm, interesting comparison, but you're probably right. Is there anything else, other than extruders for a reasonable prize? I've seen some machines using UV light...?
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[10:02] <KT5TK1> price, sorry.
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[10:05] <Laurenceb__> just order the parts you want from somewhere with decent kit
[10:06] <RB1203> is teh B47 out of range?
[10:06] <RB1203> seems to have been where it is for some time now
[10:06] <amell> yes
[10:07] <amell> its currently mid-pacific
[10:07] <amell> we hope to hear it in alaska, possibly wednesday
[10:09] <RB1203> nice
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[10:12] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar: was there more free lift on B-49?
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[10:17] <tweetBot> @daveake: Time lapse of the Heston spud flight, taken by the #RaspberryPi camera. https://t.co/9zZ1GUX3zp #UKHAS
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[10:19] <amell> eroomde: damn, look at those diamonds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUUnYgo1-lI
[10:23] <LeoBodnar> actually less [11:12] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar: was there more free lift on B-49?
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[10:24] <LeoBodnar> i suspect it might have actually landed during this strange dive at the beginning and got envelope damage
[10:24] <LeoBodnar> still does not explain why 1st full day ofer N Africa did not result in any envelope strtching
[10:24] <amell> could it have lost one of its antenna? weight change
[10:25] <LeoBodnar> maybe one solar panel but they weigh about 1g
[10:26] <amell> you were getting 0.68 out of the solar panels, so seems unlikely?
[10:26] <LeoBodnar> charging rate does not support that theory
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[10:27] <amell> what about the wire coming out the bottom?
[10:27] <Laurenceb__> it looked like an envelope bulge developed then finally burst
[10:27] <LeoBodnar> voltage does not matter as it will be held at ~0.65 by MPPT anyway but current does
[10:27] <Laurenceb__> from the altitude profile
[10:27] <LeoBodnar> B-47 had the same stretching profile
[10:27] <LeoBodnar> with a knee if that's what you mean
[10:27] <amell> what is this foil that you are using?
[10:28] <Laurenceb__> yeah but B-49 went much higher ont he day it popped
[10:28] <Laurenceb__> you can see it level out
[10:28] <LeoBodnar> but it has higher volume than B-47
[10:28] <Laurenceb__> for a few hours after sunrise
[10:28] <Laurenceb__> oh
[10:28] <LeoBodnar> it's not round
[10:28] <Laurenceb__> i see
[10:28] <Laurenceb__> B-47 was round?
[10:28] <LeoBodnar> yes
[10:28] <Laurenceb__> ah maybe there was a stress concentration
[10:28] <LeoBodnar> i can't believe stress would be significantly different
[10:29] <amell> im wondering if there was an adhesion inside the balloon between the foil. which gave.
[10:29] <Laurenceb__> the altitude looked to me like a bulge
[10:29] <LeoBodnar> eccentricity was ~0.1
[10:30] <amell> but you never saw the balloon fully inflated?
[10:30] <LeoBodnar> B-47 was similar
[10:30] <LeoBodnar> unlike standard Qualatex
[10:30] <LeoBodnar> we are in weird plastic deformation twilight zone
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[10:31] <amell> do you have the spec info for this foil plastic you are using?
[10:31] <LeoBodnar> no
[10:31] <LeoBodnar> it's shiney
[10:31] <LeoBodnar> -e
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[10:43] <eroomde> i think there is some money to be made from small, rpecise components
[10:43] <eroomde> machinign thereof
[10:43] <eroomde> although that's requires more know-how and less set-and-forget than contract laser printing
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[12:03] <Laurenceb__> http://www.argo.ucsd.edu/Argos_status_AST14.pdf
[12:04] <Laurenceb__> page 8
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[12:15] <g0pai_ian> Dragon drop test from 4.6km in 2010 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq7LgVX-Jdk I take it that the delay in main chute blooming (mid clip) was largely due to atmospheric density, so probably as low as 1 - 1.5km before significant density was encountered, to maximise air braking effect?
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[12:22] <LeoBodnar> "First prototype application will be a pop - up tag produced at very low cost (~¬1000)"
[12:22] <LeoBodnar> i like thier price scale
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[12:24] <eroomde> g0pai_ian: not quite
[12:24] <eroomde> the density is fairly constant
[12:24] <eroomde> it's called 'reefing' (keeping the mouth constrained) and it's done to minimise the opening forces on the parachutes and payload
[12:24] <eroomde> the deceleration, and thus the dynamic force, can be enormous of those chutes open to fulls traight away
[12:25] <eroomde> enough to knock people unconcious inside, and often fail the chute (it'll bust its skirt)
[12:25] <eroomde> sometimes you reef deliberately with little pyrotechnic cutters than chop the knicker-elastic keeping the mouth closed
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[12:25] <eroomde> and something thwey just have a ring that slides down the lines of its own accord, although that's quite difficult to characterise
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[12:26] <Laurenceb__> LeoBodnar: well im sure they could use an 8bit micro/cortx m0 with a silabs and call it a day
[12:26] <eroomde> they sort of like to slide down in theor own time, which is never anything to do with the intention of their designers
[12:26] <Laurenceb__> dont see the need for an asic
[12:27] <LeoBodnar> it's marketing BS
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[12:28] <Laurenceb__> http://diydrones.com/profiles/blogs/apm-plane-3-0-2-released
[12:28] <Laurenceb__> wut
[12:28] <Laurenceb__> why are they running nuttx
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[12:29] <Laurenceb__> "fixed EKF wind estimation with no airspeed sensor (thanks to Paul Riseborough)"
[12:30] <Laurenceb__> sounds groovy
[12:31] <Laurenceb__> nuttx is mental
[12:31] <Laurenceb__> also nominative determinism
[12:32] <eroomde> what is nuttx?
[12:33] <Laurenceb__> http://nuttx.org/
[12:33] <Laurenceb__> a POSIX RTOS
[12:33] <eroomde> POSIX
[12:33] <eroomde> sounds heavy for a micro
[12:34] <Laurenceb__> its madness
[12:34] <Laurenceb__> apparently its also buggy
[12:34] <Laurenceb__> looks like a massively out of control requirements list
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[12:38] <Laurenceb__> apparently arducopter/pilot is running it on avr now
[12:38] <Laurenceb__> madness
[12:39] <Laurenceb__> muhahahahaha
[12:39] <Laurenceb__> http://www.virtualrobotix.com/ <- check the comments
[12:39] <Laurenceb__> bottom of the page
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[12:44] Action: mikestir-work wonders how that happened
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[13:04] <g0pai_ian> eroomde: Reefing, many thanks, the rings sound bells in my memory from way back and I can imagine that getting such to operate consistently together would perhaps be problematic, so the knicker elastic/cutter approach is more cosisten approach.
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[13:05] <g0pai_ian> I was going to ask you what makes "rocket grade kerosene" rocket grade, particulate size, octane? (last question for the day - promise) :)
[13:05] <eroomde> yes
[13:05] <eroomde> i commend pyrotechnic reefing cutters as a nice way of doing balloon cutdowns, infact
[13:05] <eroomde> contained and safe
[13:06] <eroomde> ah, yes, so it's partly purity
[13:06] <eroomde> i.e. there are no heavier elements that leave carbony deposits on injectors and gradually block them up
[13:06] <eroomde> and it's also treating with a fungicide
[13:06] <eroomde> because there do exist bacteria that can live in keroscene
[13:06] <eroomde> which is also not what you want in your engine
[13:07] <eroomde> i think it also has less cra;p the forms corrosive acids at high temps
[13:07] <eroomde> like sulphurous componds
[13:08] <eroomde> that's really all i know about rp-1
[13:08] <eroomde> never actually used it
[13:08] <g0pai_ian> Many thanks. I that some of those factors took a few years to come to light; back in the early days. A lot more than I knew, for sure.
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[13:11] <eroomde> yeah, they discovered a lot of this stuff the hard way
[13:11] <eroomde> the purity, by which i specifically mean the lack of heavier fractions, is the main thing
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[13:12] <RB1203> is there anywhere as cheap as cosycave for SDR? in the UK
[13:13] <g0pai_ian> It was only a few years ago when they started to phase out red diesel and introduce a bio diesel component for agricultural use. The big question was with expensive combine harvesters laid up for the winter. -
[13:13] <RB1203> and also, what would be the best budget antenna that I could use without having to fix it to a building but not have to hold it as I am moving house soon :)
[13:13] <eroomde> aforementioned reefing cutter
[13:13] <eroomde> http://spot4.cnes.fr/spot4_gb/images/pyro/pan.gif
[13:13] <eroomde> this one has 2 pyros as it's presumably for space use
[13:13] <eroomde> so the reliability helps
[13:14] <eroomde> but it's a nice way of doing non-explody pyro release mechanisms for habs
[13:14] <eroomde> and you could easily make one that worked with an off-the-shelf pyrotechnic protractor which is completely safe
[13:14] <mikestir-work> RB1203: cosycave is in the uk
[13:14] <g0pai_ian> do you fill them up and risk bio breakdown and bacterial growth that will also block the filters, or do you drain down and risk condensation/corrosion. When asked Klaas, the big manufacturer, said ..
[13:15] <mikestir-work> well, it's on jersey, but it might as well be uk. stuff arrives in under 24 hours in my experience
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[13:16] <g0pai_ian> we'll find out after this winter (2011). So we haven't the answers to everything sorted yet in all industrial sectors. Farmers had to get rid of metal storage tanks which would rust.
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[13:16] <RB1203> I know just wondered if there was a UK alternative
[13:16] <RB1203> theyre away for a week
[13:17] <mikestir-work> oh I see
[13:19] <gonzo_> the AMSAT birds all use a resistive element and nylon thread for their antenna deploys. I can';t think of a flight where they failed
[13:19] <g0pai_ian> The connectors/adaptors that came with my CosyCave supplied dongle will have saved me a lot of later hassle and must be well worth a few bob.
[13:20] <amell> RB1203: Jersey is in the UK.
[13:21] <g0pai_ian> The cut down drawing is very good. Not a cheap item from the look of it, but for high reliability and fast operation I guess that there are few equals.
[13:22] <RB1203> amell: ok?
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[13:22] <g0pai_ian> Jersey is a Crown Protectorate (Balliwick) as is Ascension Island . . .
[13:23] Action: amell absolutely loves the photorealistic generator in the latest version of openrocket.
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[13:28] <RB1203> i will be living in a house that I will not be able to attach an antenna to soon, what are the alternatives
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> Find another house.
[13:30] Action: SpeedEvil starts off with the least useful alternative.
[13:30] <amell> what he said
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> Indoor antennas can work in some circumstances, depending on the construction.
[13:31] <amell> long wooden stick with antenna mounted on the end. stick it out the window.
[13:31] <RB1203> I cant, I have to live there as part of my job
[13:31] <SpeedEvil> Also - any nearby structures you can attach it to - or a fagpole or whatever
[13:31] <RB1203> fagpole
[13:31] <RB1203> lol
[13:31] Action: amell wonders what a fagpole is. something that you string gay people up on?
[13:31] <RB1203> what do you fly on them
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[13:35] <g0pai_ian> Guyed pole or mast outside the building, in the garden.
[13:35] <RB1203> has anyone had experience of an indoor antenna that is worth looking at
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> RB1203: The antenna designis basically irrelevant
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> RB1203: the important bit is the structure
[13:36] <RB1203> you mean where it is
[13:36] <SpeedEvil> If it's got foil backed plasterboard - you're basically screwed
[13:37] <RB1203> i see
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> If you can put it in a polycarbonate roofed and walled conservatory - it's basically free space
[13:37] <g0pai_ian> Sounds like horsehair and wattle - listed
[13:37] <g0pai_ian> - rather than foil backed plasterboard that is !
[13:38] Action: SpeedEvil ponders.
[13:38] <g0pai_ian> What sort of house is it - prison, hospital, profession - inmate :)
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[13:39] <RB1203> no, its stone
[13:39] <SpeedEvil> Historically accurate wind-vane - which just happens to be an antenna too.
[13:40] <RB1203> http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4088/4847751344_f514049469_z.jpg
[13:40] <g0pai_ian> SpeedEvil has had his thinking cap on, but a novel idea.
[13:41] <RB1203> want to get it on the top of those high bits but it'll be a long way from where Im living in the building, its a large building
[13:42] <RB1203> considered getting the antenna up there connected to a pc and then network it, control remotely perhaps
[13:43] <g0pai_ian> nice cupolas, but wouldn't want to clamber on them. discrete piano wire ground plane quarter wave, invisible to the naked eye from ground level. Stuff the radio kit under the cupola and feed the signals by fibre - just dreaming of course -
[13:45] <g0pai_ian> nice building. certainly a challenge. Hide any cable or fibre next to the copper grounding strip.
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[13:46] <eroomde> pneumatic scam mast
[13:46] <g0pai_ian> That would be some mast to get the antenna over the ridge line (virtual ridge)
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[13:52] <eroomde> from bedroom window
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[14:12] <amell> thats a nice house :)
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[14:21] <jiffe98> what are the blue and green circles around the balloons on snus?
[14:22] <eroomde> horizon and 5 degrees elevation
[14:22] <eroomde> iirc
[14:22] <eroomde> i.e. if you're on the blue line then the baloon is right on your horizon, 0 degrees
[14:22] <eroomde> and green is 5 degrees
[14:22] <eroomde> which is a more realistic reception elevation
[14:23] <jiffe98> ah gotcha, makes sense
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[14:24] <gonzo_> are the google maps adjusted for the geoid, or an appreoximation of range?
[14:24] <fsphil> it's just drawn as a circle
[14:24] <fsphil> using the scale in the middle of the map iirc
[14:25] <fsphil> if you move the map up or down the circle will chance size
[14:25] <fsphil> change*
[14:25] <gonzo_> probably near enough for most jobs
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[14:25] <fsphil> more or less
[14:26] <eroomde> cartographic projections are silly
[14:26] <eroomde> we should just overlay onto google-earth
[14:27] <gonzo_> that would make is difficult to have just a web page though?
[14:28] <fsphil> webgl
[14:28] <fsphil> works in all the major browsers
[14:29] <fsphil> (firefox and chrome)
[14:31] <gonzo_> I'll just shut up, I know less than nothing about web stuff
[14:32] <fsphil> spacenear.us in webgl would be a nice trick
[14:32] <mfa298> and it's not like it'll be anymore unusable on lower powered machines than it is already
[14:32] <fsphil> probably faster
[14:33] <mfa298> then again the latest google maps is pretty much unuseable on my netbook.
[14:33] <mfa298> which is annoying when the netbook is the machine that tends to travel more - when maps could be of more use
[14:34] <fsphil> needs offline maps anyway
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[14:46] <amell> Hmm, recruiters coming in thick and fast about a new job for me. 9 emails today :)
[14:48] <eroomde> are you excited about this job?
[14:48] <gonzo_> I used to get them contacting me after not contacting them for a decade
[14:48] <amell> 9 different jobs....
[14:48] <amell> Amazon want me. Im not sure I want them.
[14:48] <gonzo_> some jobs they must get desparete and start going through the back catalogue
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[14:49] <amell> gonzo_ thanks for the confidence. lol.
[14:49] <gonzo_> 9 is not bad. How suitable are they?
[14:49] <gonzo_> hehe, wasn't aimed at you!
[14:49] <amell> they are all suitable. The problem is I dont want a job just yet, was planning to take a break...
[14:50] <gonzo_> best one I had was my CV landing on the bosses desk, for bthe job I'd just resigned from
[14:50] <amell> good one.
[14:50] <myself> ahaha
[14:50] <myself> i occasionally get that stuff from LinkedIn
[14:50] <gonzo_> it was intercepted by his PA. I said, just let it go throiugh, so he could see what he was losing
[14:51] <myself> clever pa... doing their job :)
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[14:52] <amell> how common is it for employers to allow homeworking 1-2 days a week?
[14:52] <amell> I would do a couple of these jobs, but they are too far for a 5 days a week commute.
[14:53] <gonzo_> allow you to work at home, or get away wityh douing your own stuff in work time??
[14:53] <daveake> hah
[14:53] <amell> work at home.
[14:53] <mfa298> I think that probably depends on the job and the employer.
[14:53] <gonzo_> pretty common though
[14:53] <amell> Wonder if Amazon would allow that.
[14:53] <mikestir-work> don't suppose it works so well if you're packing boxes :)
[14:53] <gonzo_> (If it's difficult for anyone toi know the difference between hjome and work then it's easy)
[14:53] <amell> small company, or international megacompany - theres a choice.
[14:54] <mfa298> picking stuff off the shelves might be a challenge working from home with amazon
[14:54] <amell> er no. this job is not packing boxes.
[14:54] <amell> its to manage all IT in warehouses in all amazon UK locations.
[14:54] <gonzo_> small companies, you can end up being pressured as there is often no-one else to deal with panics
[14:54] <mfa298> I was guessing that might be the case. From seeing their conditions on TV you'de probably have to be mad to do do a picking job for them
[14:55] <daveake> I'd pick a different job
[14:55] <gonzo_> big co, you can get caught up in the politics, though play it right you do nothing and get promoted (see dilbert)
[14:55] <gonzo_> medium size ~100 people is most comfortable for me
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[14:56] <amell> yesterday i was asked about working for a startup of 4 people.
[14:56] <amell> so two extremes
[14:56] <amell> difficult one. Need to think about it.
[14:56] <gonzo_> best mix of being able to offload work to a sensible level and still have some influence on the outcomes
[14:57] <amell> gonzo_: are you the PHB?? :)
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[14:58] <mfa298> smaller startups can sometimes be more flexible if they really want your skills although that can depend on what they're doing. If they're trying to offer phone support as well it can be harder being flexible and covering the hours.
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[15:10] <gonzo_> phb?
[15:11] <myself> pointy haired boxes, it's a dilbert thing
[15:11] <eroomde> point-haired boss
[15:11] <eroomde> dilbert
[15:11] <eroomde> too slow
[15:11] <eroomde> damn this sattelite connection
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[15:13] <Reb-SM3ULC> eroomde: where?
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[15:15] <eroomde> geosynchronous orbit
[15:16] <myself> the Clarke belt, everyone's favorite fashion accessory
[15:17] <gonzo_> or a haymaker with the right
[15:19] <Reb-SM3ULC> eroomde: thought more where you are.. :)
[15:20] <eroomde> oh
[15:20] <eroomde> near oxford
[15:21] <eroomde> but in the middle of an old ww2 airfield
[15:21] <eroomde> not much telecoms infrastructure here
[15:22] <Reb-SM3ULC> eroomde: 3/4g ??
[15:23] <eroomde> sattelite is 20MBit/s
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[15:25] <chrisstubbs> Oh bother my mini displayport adapter turned out to be a mini DVI :(
[15:27] <Reb-SM3ULC> eroomde: pretty ok :)
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[15:40] <eroomde> Reb-SM3ULC: we have a wireless link to a mask from some isp 2 miles away by a road
[15:40] <eroomde> it is 8 MBit
[15:40] <eroomde> and goes down a lot
[15:40] <eroomde> so i've got the firewall set up to load balance and failover to one ior the other
[15:43] <Reb-SM3ULC> eroomde: ah
[15:44] <eroomde> more detail about my work network than you probably wanted or needed
[15:44] <Reb-SM3ULC> :)
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[16:40] <Willdude123> 0.0 seconds irc lag
[16:40] <Willdude123> It's christmas
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[17:11] <dg9bfc_sigi> @ DL1SGP ... Sondenjäger?!? ... das suffix deuted darauf hin :-)
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[17:19] <DL1SGP> did he really expect me to answer within 3 minutes :)
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[17:27] <Willdude123> Wait, what are the B-x evelopes made of?
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[17:28] <Lunar_Lander> chewing gum
[17:29] <Willdude123> Upu, do I need to be with an adult or just come with one to the conference?
[17:31] <eroomde> Willdude123: almost certainly with
[17:31] <eroomde> think about the purpose of the law
[17:32] <Willdude123> I didn't know there was one, but Ok
[17:32] <Upu> Willdude123 you need a parent or guardian with you at all times sorry
[17:33] <Willdude123> Ok. That's cool. There's no guarantee I'll care about HAB still then, I'm slowly beginning to stop caring about a lot of stuff I used to like
[17:33] <Upu> Stop being emo
[17:36] <LeoBodnar> is this preemptive boredom?
[17:37] <aadamson> hehe ^
[17:39] <aadamson> btw, I've claimed a New development paradigm. .. repetitive debugging code advancement - rdca. If you debug the code enough times its got to get better right?
[17:41] <DL1SGP> you should claim rdfd as well "repetitive debugging feature development" --- if you cannot get rid of the bug call it a feature :)
[17:41] Action: Reb-SM3ULC remembers a buggy code that worked like a charm when all debugging-code was removed.
[17:41] <arko> i think the problem with bad code is usually due to the interface between the chair and the keyboard
[17:41] <aadamson> yeah, thats the old -O0 vs -02/0s thing... been there many times as well :)
[17:41] <aadamson> -O2/-Os... duh
[17:43] <aadamson> arko, fershur!!!
[17:50] <aadamson> DL1SGP, I missed your comments... indeed.... I was just there a little while ago... I said... hmm, you know that debugging code could come in handy :)...
[17:51] <DL1SGP> no worries aadamson :)
[17:51] <aadamson> Creeping elegance - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creeping_elegance yeah, yeah, that's what it's called :)
[17:53] <DL1SGP> in web development "designers" are mostly the reason for creeping elegance "we do not care that it does not work on code aspects, it lookz sooo cuuuuuuteeee! <3"
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[17:59] <Willdude123> Upu, grandparents count as guardians right?
[18:01] <g0pai_ian> I think that a grandparent could be considered Loco Parentis and formalised with filling in a form if there was any doubt.
[18:03] <g0pai_ian> You just need to be able to wake grand dad up so that he doesn't miss a cup of tea between lectures.
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[18:38] <mikestir> Reb-SM3ULC: normally it works like a charm when you put the debugging code _in_!
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[18:51] <Reb-SM3ULC> mikestir: :)
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[18:54] <RB1203> whats happeining with B49?
[18:55] <RB1203> seems.... stuck?
[18:56] <eroomde> it'll show the last reported position
[18:56] <eroomde> as opposed to the last transmitted position
[18:56] <eroomde> important difference
[18:58] <RB1203> so it may have moved but noone has picked it up
[18:58] <RB1203> becasue they are too far away etc
[18:59] <eroomde> exactly
[18:59] <eroomde> often it hangs for a day or two
[18:59] <eroomde> then suddenly you get a position report from 1000 miles away
[19:01] <RB1203> cool
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[19:04] <Willdude123> Is there something that actually explains the equipment and envelope of B-x?
[19:05] <eroomde> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/
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[19:17] <RB1203> have people ever added a camera to a floater or are the balloons not up to carrying such a payload
[19:18] <eroomde> sure
[19:18] <eroomde> though usually latex floaters
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[19:18] <eroomde> which can take much heavier payloads up
[19:18] <mattbrejza> 100g or so isnt much when the balloon itself is 1600g
[19:19] <RB1203> can anyone point me in the right direction of some pics etc?
[19:19] <mattbrejza> see daves site, he did one recently
[19:20] <eroomde> do you specifically want pictures from floaters?
[19:20] <RB1203> yes, with some more info about the setup etc
[19:20] <eroomde> or are you happy with just pictures from normal high altitude balloons?
[19:20] <RB1203> a blog perhaps
[19:21] <RB1203> floaters
[19:21] <eroomde> i took your question to mean specifically floaters rather than conventional up-down flights
[19:21] <RB1203> yes, up down seems well documented but I havent seen many from floaters although I am new to this
[19:22] <eroomde> no faifr enough
[19:22] <eroomde> floaters tend to dissappear
[19:22] <amell> has anyone ever tried the HopeRF HM-TRLR-S transceiver?
[19:22] <amell> 100mW tx/rx
[19:23] <amell> claims 5km open air.
[19:23] <eroomde> not as far as a i know
[19:23] <eroomde> no use for hab
[19:23] <amell> the application i am thinking of is not hab
[19:24] <amell> it is being able to find a rocket in a corn field.
[19:24] <Upu> just look for the fire
[19:24] <craag> use a HF DF beacon?
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[19:25] <eroomde> normal hab stuff should probably work for that amell
[19:25] <amell> yes, but i was also thinking of logging the flight path back to base live.
[19:25] <amell> and have gps display on a 2 line lcd display
[19:26] <eroomde> oh nice
[19:26] <eroomde> well, i still think that'd be illegal
[19:26] <eroomde> as it's airborne use
[19:26] <amell> only for a few seconds.
[19:27] <Upu> I only murdered someone for a few seconds
[19:27] <eroomde> sure
[19:27] <eroomde> but still illegal
[19:27] <eroomde> just like myurder for a few seconds is still illegal
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[19:27] <eroomde> i'm just stating that as a point of fact
[19:28] <amell> fine, transmit only when gps coords are stationary.
[19:28] <Upu> its a point worth reiterating
[19:28] <amell> and transmit the log too.
[19:28] <craag> or just use a rtty tracker?
[19:28] <mfa298> if it's a more intellegent module you could run lower power / duty cycle when airborne.
[19:28] <amell> no because it is impractical to lug a yagi and laptop around a corn field.
[19:28] <craag> If range is not such an issue you could TX over FM for drift-immunity and cheap rx
[19:29] <mfa298> although once landed I'm not sure how much 100mW would really help compared to 10mW.
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[19:29] <amell> I was looking at HopeRF LoRa mode.
[19:29] <amell> Americans have had success at 1km on the ground at 915Mhz.
[19:30] <craag> 'on the ground' is a bit ambiguous
[19:30] <mikestir> aren't they allowed about 100W on 915 MHz as well?
[19:30] <amell> in the trees, in the grass etc.
[19:30] <amell> yes, 100W output.
[19:31] <eroomde> you don't need more intelligent modules or anything
[19:31] <eroomde> just to afsk with an ntx2b
[19:31] <amell> LoRa mode has CRC error corrected transmission etc.
[19:31] <eroomde> run it at 1.2kbaud or saomething if you want the speed
[19:31] <eroomde> it'll be fine in an open field within a mile of range
[19:31] <mfa298> but when the americans say they have done 1km on the ground does that mean on a 1m stick pushed into the ground or from the crater they just landed in, both are "on the ground" but one is likely to work, the other not.
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[19:31] <amell> http://www.hoperf.com/upload/rf/HM-TRLR-S_Series_english_.pdf is what i am looking at.
[19:32] <mikestir> amell: this corn field... are you in it too?
[19:32] <mikestir> can't you just use a buzzer?
[19:32] <amell> mikestir: yes
[19:32] <amell> no. because I do not have directional hearing :)
[19:32] <craag> amell: 868MHz rfm69hw?
[19:32] <mikestir> well take someone that does
[19:32] <craag> Could even make it ukhasnet protocol ;)
[19:32] <amell> and besides, it could be in another corn field.
[19:33] <mikestir> ahh, specification failure. are you in this corn field? yes, I mean no
[19:34] <g0pai_ian> I guess that you need to use both ears or mount your antenna on the bottom of the rocket it it is likely to dig in on impact. I guess you anticipate a recovery chute failure?
[19:34] <amell> rfm69hw - unclear to me whether this would be better than HM-TRLR-S
[19:34] <amell> it doesnt matter whether chute has failed or not, rockets are hard to find in cornfields and even more so in 6 foot high rapeseed.
[19:35] <amell> especially when your chute is yellow.
[19:35] <mikestir> DF it
[19:35] <mikestir> CW beacon
[19:35] <mikestir> no expensive GPS required
[19:35] <amell> why cant i just get the GPS coords sent to my palmheld receiver?
[19:35] <amell> got a link for this DF businesS?
[19:36] <mikestir> could be quite inaccurate if it lands unfavourably
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[19:36] <eroomde> nah gps will be more accurate than df
[19:36] <eroomde> i know what amell wants, i understand about amateur rocketry recovery
[19:36] <LeoBodnar> you need a rocket catcher in that cornfield
[19:36] <mikestir> not if you can't find it at close range
[19:37] <eroomde> i'd honestly go for afsk
[19:37] <eroomde> and a handheld fm receiver
[19:37] <g0pai_ian> at 434MHz the size of a small four or five element yagi is quite compact. Six foot oil seed rape . . . four feet, five tops. A change in chute colour seems to be on the cards, but if you aren't launching for another two weeks or so the rape will have gone over and you won't have a problem.
[19:37] <amell> I dont own a handheld fm receiver
[19:38] <eroomde> get one of those chinese ones that cost 20p
[19:38] <g0pai_ian> Smear honey on the tail of your rocket just before launch and follow the bees.
[19:38] <eroomde> someone will hopefully link
[19:38] <amell> helpful suggestions.
[19:38] <amell> well, some of them.
[19:38] <g0pai_ian> Sorry :)
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[19:38] <mikestir> bah
[19:39] <eroomde> http://www.amazon.com/BaoFeng-UV-5R-136-174-400-480-Dual-Band/dp/B007H4VT7A
[19:39] <eroomde> these things
[19:39] <amell> okay, so how does this give me the location of my rocket?
[19:39] <amell> i dont quite understand
[19:39] <eroomde> you can have a whip or a yagi as your heart desires
[19:40] <eroomde> i'm proposing:
[19:40] <eroomde> gps-micro-ntx2[afsk]
[19:40] <eroomde> spaaaaaaace
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[19:40] <eroomde> handheld-something with fldigi
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[19:40] <craag> or android tablet
[19:41] <amell> so i need fldigi for this? I didnt want to carry anything round the cornfield.
[19:41] <amell> especially an expensive macbook pro.
[19:42] <mfa298> if you don't want to carry anything with you attach a long piece of string to the rocket and follow that to where it landed.
[19:42] <craag> handheld rx+android phone
[19:42] <eroomde> android works fine for this
[19:42] <eroomde> there are android decoding softwares
[19:42] <LeoBodnar> and no 3G coverage
[19:42] <amell> that baofeng doesnt support USB?
[19:42] <eroomde> no
[19:42] <eroomde> but i wasn't saying 'afsk' for my own amusement
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[19:42] <eroomde> afsk is fsk over fm
[19:42] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, approx how far below the envelop are you *hanging* your payload? on the B's?
[19:43] <eroomde> nearest millimetere leobodnar
[19:43] <eroomde> or it might not work
[19:43] <amell> ah, re afsk
[19:43] <eroomde> so you could have a handheld and an android
[19:43] <eroomde> and see where you are vs where it is on google maps sat view
[19:43] <LeoBodnar> this-> http://www.kenwoodusa.com/communications/amateur_radio/portables/th-d72a
[19:43] <eroomde> or something else nice like that
[19:44] <amell> okay, reasonable idea. now what is the downside of my original proposal?
[19:44] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: i'm proposing afsk anyway
[19:44] <amell> relative to your idea
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[19:44] <eroomde> to cope with the doppler
[19:44] <LeoBodnar> APRS bug
[19:44] <eroomde> in actual preference to fsk
[19:44] <LeoBodnar> 2/3 of a wavelength aadamson
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[19:45] <aadamson> ok, so basically you have 2/3 - 1/4 wavelength clearance between the tip of your vertical dipole and the balloon or something close there abouts?
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[19:45] <LeoBodnar> ideally balloon and payload have to be separated by irrational ratio of the tx wavelength to avoid metallised balloon affecting TX performance
[19:45] <eroomde> amell: 1) oyur way isn't illegal
[19:46] <eroomde> 2) it should cope with doppler form the rocket much better
[19:46] <amell> my proposal was: ublox->arduino nano->hoperf then hoperf->arduino nano->lcd display
[19:46] <eroomde> that said the deviation on those hope things is enormous so it should probably fit within the filter for each tone even with doppler
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[19:47] <amell> what frequency are you talking about eroomde: I still dont understand why my way is illegal
[19:47] <amell> it is ISM band, so?
[19:47] <eroomde> Tx power
[19:48] <amell> which has to be limited to what?
[19:48] <eroomde> depends on the frequency
[19:48] <mfa298> amell: you might want to grab a copy of ir2030 and see what modes of operation are legal with that hoperf module. I think you'll find you can't use the full 100mW 100% of the time on any band.
[19:48] <LeoBodnar> ISN still has limits, you can't fly microwave oven with removed front door
[19:48] <amell> 868Mhz
[19:48] <LeoBodnar> legally anyway
[19:48] <AndChat|716289> Leobodnar,balloon is conected to gnd?
[19:48] <eroomde> that ^
[19:48] <amell> you can switch the module power up/down.
[19:48] <eroomde> if what you are proposing fits in an airborne4 exemption in that document, you're ok
[19:48] <eroomde> but to save you the effort, i'm pretty sure it doesn't
[19:48] <amell> so how about 5mW when moving and 100mW when stationary?
[19:49] <eroomde> look at your deviation too
[19:49] <eroomde> that's also specified by that document
[19:49] <eroomde> as the channel bandwidth
[19:50] <amell> it states 10mW erp with duty 10%
[19:50] <mfa298> amell: you need to look at that document and work out what's legal or not, There are a lot of options on 868Mhz usually more power allowed for a smaller duty cycle i.e. you might be able to use 100mW airborne but only for a few seconds per hour. or 10mW for a few minutes, or 1mW most of the time.
[19:50] <nats`> mfa298 this doc state about airborne use of those ?
[19:51] <eroomde> and channel bandwidth mfa298
[19:51] <amell> yes its there, on page 17
[19:51] <amell> interesting doc. 25mW with duty cycle of 1% may be used at 865-868Mhz
[19:51] <mfa298> nats`: it tells you what you can use airborne (and if it doesn't say you can't use it airborne). I can't remember the exact details though
[19:51] <amell> bookmarked.
[19:52] <nats`> I bookmark it but not sure it'll be valid in France
[19:52] <nats`> I'll try to find more informaton on that
[19:52] <amell> 868-869.7mhz is duty cycle of 0.1%
[19:52] <mfa298> nats`: it's linked in with the european regs but I think each country can apply them slightly differently.
[19:53] <nats`> mfa298 we already comply with some EN300-220 at work on 868 band
[19:53] <amell> 869.40- 869.65 MHz can be used up to 500mW with 10% duty cycle.
[19:53] <amell> perfect :)
[19:53] <nats`> basically the duty cycle use is never really checked
[19:53] <nats`> too blurry definition
[19:53] <nats`> you can cheat by implementing a little LBT + AFA system
[19:53] <nats`> :D
[19:54] <eroomde> amell: look at the channelling colum there
[19:54] <LeoBodnar> use CDMA
[19:54] <amell> 869.40-869.65 is clearly the spectrum for me.
[19:54] <LeoBodnar> at least if you get pulled over you'd be treated with respect
[19:54] <amell> Channel spacing 25 kHz
[19:54] <amell> Consecutive channels may be combined where a larger bandwidth is required, due to the modulation of the signal, up to the maximum sub-band frequency allocation.
[19:54] <amell> thats my baby
[19:55] <mfa298> I think someone found the Duty Cycle definition was based on a hour so for a short rocket flight you could probably tx continuously and still be within 10%
[19:55] <eroomde> it's your baby until you read the datasheet of the hoperf module
[19:55] <eroomde> then it's not your baby
[19:55] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, your next toy - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX_hv5nj1Yk :)
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[19:56] <amell> hoperf module on channel 13 is 869.50
[19:56] <amell> so bang in the right place
[19:57] <amell> so it IS my baby
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[19:57] <eroomde> link me to the pdf again, i closed the window
[19:57] <amell> which one?
[19:57] <amell> hoperf?
[19:57] <eroomde> yes
[19:58] <amell> http://www.hoperf.com/upload/rf/HM-TRLR-S_Series_english_.pdf <- my baby
[19:58] <amell> read page 9 and 10 and weep
[19:58] <DL1SGP> aadamson: LeoBodnar would pimp that with an auto payload and filling mechanism for mass launch :D
[19:59] <aadamson> yeah, can you see it now... PCB assembly on one site, balloon on the other... out come a ready to fly Bee...
[19:59] <mfa298> of course it's only your baby if you can actually find one to buy
[19:59] <aadamson> lol
[19:59] <eroomde> amell: i get snotty when people who don't know what they're talking about tell me and wrong
[19:59] <eroomde> and you are one such person
[19:59] <eroomde> so
[19:59] <eroomde> let's read the datasheet properly before jumping to conclusions
[19:59] <eroomde> table 6
[19:59] <eroomde> parameters
[19:59] <eroomde> look at the frequency deviations
[19:59] <aadamson> oh boy, i"m going for popcorn :)
[20:00] <nats`> aadamson take some
[20:00] <nats`> I have a full bag
[20:00] <nats`> :D
[20:00] <aadamson> excellent who brought the beer :)
[20:00] <amell> 42-166khz?
[20:00] <DL1SGP> I brought beer
[20:00] <nats`> they broadcast The Wire on #HA tonight
[20:00] <nats`> :D
[20:00] <eroomde> fdev is 35khz
[20:00] <eroomde> channel spacing allowed by ir2030 is 25khz
[20:01] <eroomde> in ortherwords you'd be straddling 2 channels
[20:01] <eroomde> now, if you can adjust that, you might be ok
[20:01] <amell> where is this 35khz?
[20:01] <amell> i cant see it
[20:01] <amell> got it
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[20:06] <amell> That is just in FSK mode though
[20:07] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, it's kinda old, but some interesting reading on rolling your own envelopes - http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=489372
[20:07] <mfa298> amell: look at the rest of the datasheet. Section 4 might be a good start
[20:07] <LeoBodnar> i've seen this
[20:08] <LeoBodnar> it's mylar
[20:08] <mfa298> looks like Lora mode is an even bigger bandwidth starting at 62.5KHz and going up to 500KHz
[20:08] <amell> yes.
[20:09] <amell> but again, youre assuming i transmit airborne.
[20:09] <mfa298> you may also want to look at how available they are and how much. Care to guess the price I found in the first (and only so far) UK place selling them.
[20:09] <eroomde> sure. if you're on the ground then knock yorself out
[20:10] <mfa298> from what I can see of a quick look at IR2030 it's the same limits airborne and on the ground for 869.4-869.65
[20:10] <LeoBodnar> ring Semtech and get samples
[20:10] <amell> mfa298: someone in the US is selling these into europe.
[20:10] <LeoBodnar> or buy them from DigiKey
[20:10] <LeoBodnar> errr Future
[20:11] <LeoBodnar> they are just Semtech chips on a shit PCB
[20:12] <LeoBodnar> SX1272 et al
[20:12] <eroomde> i do think having a gps fix in the air, on the way down, is useful though
[20:12] <eroomde> eg we once had a 10kft chute deployment
[20:12] <eroomde> which was a couple of mile walk to recover
[20:13] <eroomde> and it is unlikely we'd have known where to walk if we hadn't got a fix from 100m agl
[20:14] <amell> looks like leobodnar is right as always, LoRa is a Semtech technology.
[20:14] <amell> http://www.semtech.com/Press-Releases/2014/Semtech-LoRa-Platform-Selected-by-KERLINK-For-First-Internet-of-Things-Long-Range-Gateway.html
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[20:16] <nats`> yes it is and it works pretty good but you need custom TX and RX
[20:16] <nats`> take care of the latency too
[20:16] <nats`> at high "FEC" you can go as low as 100bps
[20:17] <mfa298> amell: anyhow as I think craag said earlier you may want to look at what other modules are out there - like the RFM69HW - they're easy to obtain in europe and are cheap, the only prices I saw for that TRLR-S module were >£20 each (and I think the US price I saw when scanning google was nearer $40)
[20:17] <amell> but i cant use this because its 10Mhz more deviation than is allowed.
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[20:18] <amell> yes, the rfm is far cheaper.
[20:18] <eroomde> it might be ok on the ground, i don't keep up with those rules
[20:19] <craag> We use 24KHz deviation on the RFM69, as it doesn't seem to like small deviations
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[20:19] <craag> So stay just within the 25KHz
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[20:25] <amell> ok. looking at the moteino. interesting
[20:27] <amell> yes, this will do me. http://lowpowerlab.com/forum/index.php/topic,112.msg288.html
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[20:39] <Laurenceb_> http://vintageeveryday.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/oldtimeverticalparking.jpg
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[20:41] <harvy> Hello?
[20:41] <eroomde> no one here
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[20:41] <craag> evening
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[20:42] <harvy> Cool. Can anyone help me with dl-fldigi?
[20:42] <Geoff-G8DHE> Hi, ping dl7ad
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[20:42] <craag> harvy: Ask away
[20:43] <harvy> Well I am a first time HABer and I wanted to play around with the software, so I have some sample audio from icarus but I can't work what RTTY settings I need to decode the data.
[20:44] <harvy> Is there a way to get old flight data and work it out?
[20:45] <Upu> it will be 50 baud 7n2
[20:45] <craag> Ok, so do you have the two lines in the waterfall?
[20:45] <Upu> or 8n1
[20:46] <harvy> I've tuned it 50 baud. And I assume 7n2 is 7 bit per char with 2 stop bits?
[20:46] <harvy> I have to lines in the waterfall
[20:46] <harvy> two*
[20:46] <craag> Cool
[20:47] <craag> So now you need to line the then red lines of the decoder up with the yellow lines on the waterfall
[20:47] <craag> *thin red lines
[20:47] <harvy> I'm just playing the audio on my laptop and looping it back into fldigi
[20:47] <craag> That'll work :)
[20:47] <harvy> Yep I've done that but it's just gobblydigook
[20:47] <amell> are you reporting it to spacenear.us? :)
[20:47] <harvy> I'm not reporting it. I hope!
[20:47] <craag> harvy: Ok, try 8 bit per character
[20:47] <amell> give us a screenshot?
[20:48] <craag> If that doesn't work - try the 'Rv' button in the bottom right
[20:49] <harvy> Hmmm, still getting strange chars. Mainly semi-colons
[20:49] <craag> If all else fails - put a screenshot on imgur for us :)
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[20:51] <DL1SGP> nabend Sven DL7AD
[20:51] <Geoff-G8DHE> Sven do you have a file of the missing B-47 segments ?
[20:51] <DL7AD> huhu :)
[20:52] <harvy> Something like this? http://imgur.com/m3AOafw
[20:52] <DL7AD> yes Ge
[20:52] <DL7AD> yes Geoff-G8DHE
[20:52] <craag> harvy: Try putting the red lines a bit closer together
[20:52] <craag> so the red bars at the top are ove the yellow
[20:52] <DL7AD> www.dl7ad.de/tracker/?filter=B-47 sent a pm to you Geoff-G8DHE
[20:52] <craag> and change it back to 7 bits
[20:53] <harvy> Ok, trying 423
[20:53] <Geoff-G8DHE> Any chance of grabbing it, I'm out mobile on the laptop for at leasdt another week and would save me a lot of effort on the road!
[20:53] <craag> And switch off Rv
[20:54] <harvy> Ok, I'm getting something but it's still a bit messy
[20:54] <harvy> I get a few strings with GPS coords
[20:55] <DL1SGP> can you copy and paste what you are getting harvy?
[20:55] <DL1SGP> not all but like one line
[20:56] <harvy> Oh crap I just uploaded a piece.
[20:56] <amell> is there a new version of dl-fldigi? this looks nothing like the mac version
[20:56] <amell> theres no hab mode?
[20:56] <craag> Oh look icarus is flying!
[20:56] <craag> :P
[20:57] <amell> no worries, i did that too
[20:57] <harvy> I'm using the version from the wiki but yeah it looks nothing like the mac version
[20:57] <craag> harvy: There's 2 program icons, one is HAB mode
[20:57] <harvy> I just turned off the online mode
[20:57] <craag> It's a bit more intuitive for flights as it has autoconfigure and parsing
[20:58] <harvy> so that should do it.
[20:58] <craag> Yep no worries about uploading
[20:58] <craag> Atleast you know that bit works now!
[20:58] <harvy> I was going to ask, it has trouble keeping up with drift, is this normal?
[20:59] <craag> Bring up the RTTY config window
[20:59] <craag> at the bottom is filter width
[20:59] <craag> widen that a bit
[20:59] <craag> ->80hz or so
[21:00] <harvy> Cool, that works better now.
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[21:01] <craag> Yeah narrow filter will work better for really weak signals
[21:01] <craag> But with something as strong as that - you can get away with it being quite wide
[21:01] <harvy> I don't suppose there is anything I can test this on right now?
[21:01] <harvy> I have my SDR dongle working.
[21:02] <craag> Depends what country you're in
[21:02] <craag> (very likely not)
[21:02] <harvy> UK
[21:02] <craag> not at the moment then
[21:02] <eroomde> where in the uk?
[21:02] <harvy> Not test signal or anything like that
[21:02] <harvy> Manchester
[21:02] <harvy> No*
[21:03] <craag> A test signal is rather hard to cover the UK with
[21:03] <craag> unless it's 40km up :P
[21:03] <harvy> Lol, true I thought something local. Oh well guess I better build my own signal then.
[21:04] <eroomde> guess ibanezmatt13 might fire something your way
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[21:04] <harvy> For the record I am part of Machester's own balloon/space programme
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[21:04] <amell> wonders if anyone has used moteino for HAB
[21:04] <LeoBodnar> space programme?
[21:04] <harvy> yup.
[21:04] <eroomde> harvy: uni?
[21:04] Action: DL1SGP takes note of that and writes it into the file he keeps on harvy *joke*
[21:05] <harvy> http://manchesterspaceprogramme.org
[21:05] <craag> ok cool
[21:05] <craag> nice website :P
[21:06] <harvy> I just hacked it together but I am looking for some content for it.
[21:06] <harvy> We are hopefully looking to launch a ballon this summer.
[21:06] <craag> Great!
[21:07] <LeoBodnar> "Proposed Outreach Activities ...engage with one or more schools"
[21:07] <LeoBodnar> you got proper aerospace words! XD
[21:08] <amell> you need a picture of Leobodnar in your logo instead of the dog.
[21:08] <LeoBodnar> i ain't going in no space
[21:08] <harvy> I will consider it. I mean look at the dog, he's lovin it!
[21:08] <Lunar_Lander> but LeoBodnar built a balloon that went almost 50% around the world now
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[21:09] <craag> harvy: Your planning is rather in-depth!
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[21:09] <eroomde> i love the use of ther word 'but'
[21:09] <craag> How many guys does this group consist of?
[21:09] <craag> /girls
[21:09] <amell> and are they nice girls?
[21:10] <LeoBodnar> doge is a girl
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[21:10] <Lunar_Lander> ?!
[21:11] <DL1SGP> Laika was a girl :)
[21:11] <amell> i never knew that.
[21:11] <amell> What a dog
[21:11] <nats`> DL1SGP boobies syndrom ? :D
[21:11] <LeoBodnar> Strelka probably too
[21:11] <harvy> Well we have about 8 active members
[21:12] <eroomde> decent
[21:12] <harvy> There was a girl at the start who setup our porject site but she hasn't really contributed.
[21:12] <DL1SGP> nats`: somebody mentioned boobs?
[21:12] <harvy> One of the guys with is an enginner, hence all the palnning you see there.
[21:12] <harvy> with us*
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[21:13] <LeoBodnar> this chan is so predictable you'd think it run by robots
[21:13] <Babs_> Evening HAB-fans
[21:14] <harvy> Well thanks craag for the help.
[21:14] <harvy> I'll be waiting for the next flight to test this SDR out.
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[21:14] <Lunar_Lander> next flight means, there have been N flights already?
[21:15] <harvy> Oh no. I mean the next one I can track. We haven't launched anything yet.
[21:15] <amell> really liking the moteino concept, but this means i have to pay import duty. is there anything similar in the UK
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[21:15] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> may I make a joke? :)
[21:16] <daveake> Is that allowed in Germany?
[21:16] <eroomde> no Lunar_Lander
[21:16] <Babs_> I hope your balloons will have a Peter Saville colour scheme harvy
[21:16] <eroomde> you know thw rules
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> XD
[21:16] <craag> np harvy, are you signed up to the mailing list for announcements?
[21:16] <arko> Babs_: did you ping me yesterday?
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> well, my statement is true for if you insert N=0 then
[21:16] <Babs_> yes. i done a reaction wheel.
[21:16] <LeoBodnar> "Soviet Union launched missions with passenger slots for at least 57 dogs." wow
[21:16] <eroomde> was that the joke?
[21:16] <Lunar_Lander> yes
[21:17] <amell> germans and jokes. no.
[21:17] <Lunar_Lander> LeoBodnar, what spacecraft and when?
[21:17] <Lunar_Lander> can't imagine 57 dogs in a Soyuz
[21:17] <harvy> craag, nope I was consdering it but I figure I'll just go spacenear whenever I'm free.
[21:19] <eroomde> worth going to the mailing list
[21:19] <craag> harvy: I'd suggest you sign up
[21:19] <eroomde> flights are often only 3-4hrs duration
[21:19] <eroomde> so there's a good chance you'll miss something without a headsup
[21:19] <harvy> wait to highlight a message it's craag: ?
[21:19] <DL1SGP> Lunar_Lander: We had horses in Lasagne, so 57 dogs should fit in a Soyuz.
[21:20] <harvy> Not used IRC is soooo long.
[21:20] <harvy> in*
[21:20] <craag> harvy: Either works
[21:20] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:20] <harvy> and I can't type apparently.
[21:20] <craag> harvy: <- just tab-autocompletes for me :)
[21:20] <DL1SGP> Soyuz and deep frozen Lasagne have one thing in common, if used the wrong way the contents starts to burn
[21:21] <harvy> Well since I have you guys here. Do you know anything about antennas?
[21:21] <eroomde> they are also both assembled horizontally
[21:21] <nats`> [23:12:11] <DL1SGP> nats`: somebody mentioned boobs? <= no but girls yes :p
[21:21] <harvy> the hab wiki is a bit spare on those things.
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[21:21] <harvy> I assume I just buy any 70cm antenna and just attach it to my dongle?
[21:22] <eroomde> oh for ground receiving?
[21:22] <eroomde> lots of options
[21:22] <eroomde> choose between directional and not directional
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[21:22] <eroomde> assuming the latter, colinears are popular
[21:22] <eroomde> eg the watson w50
[21:22] <harvy> Oh yeah sorry for receiving
[21:22] <eroomde> that's particularly popular
[21:23] <craag> collinear for rxing from home
[21:23] <harvy> Holy crap that's huge
[21:23] <craag> magmount for rxing when chasing
[21:23] <harvy> I can't really use this. I rent
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[21:23] <Maxell> harvy: then a yagi might work.
[21:23] <amell> thats what i said once.
[21:23] <amell> then these guys here, convinced me to ruin my neighbourhood
[21:23] <Maxell> For 70cm it can be rather compact.
[21:23] <harvy> I was thinking something more mobile
[21:24] <LeoBodnar> Lunar_Lander: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_space_dogs
[21:24] <harvy> Might be used in the chase car.
[21:24] <amell> by installing the biggest fuck off antenna possible.
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[21:24] <LeoBodnar> this is wikipedia so don't trust anything and use for entertainment only
[21:24] <craag> harvy: A magmount 70cm antenna then
[21:24] <Maxell> harvy: more mobile, as in on car? Because those car atennas *require* an car roof to work properly.
[21:24] <mfa298> harvy: depending on what the property is you could possibly put something like the W50 on a mast in the garden, or mast against the house - which should need limited fixing.
[21:24] <craag> I have a chinese-W50-clone in the loft
[21:24] <harvy> As a beginner is this recommended?
[21:25] <craag> jsut hanging from duct tape on the rafters
[21:25] <amell> craag: you keep it in the loft?
[21:25] <craag> amell: yes
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[21:25] <amell> damn, i was told that it wouldnt work when it rains
[21:25] <Babs_> dirty work https://www.dropbox.com/sc/r6wuqiyn17001dw/T239D1XzkM
[21:25] <Lunar_Lander> thanks LeoBodnar
[21:25] <craag> amell: on 23cm+ maybe not, below that though it really won't make much a difference
[21:25] <amell> i think ill move mine inside then
[21:25] <craag> also if you have slate roofing
[21:26] <craag> that'll absorb any rf
[21:26] <harvy> craag: I am using my TV antenna for now, would that do the job?
[21:26] <craag> otherwise you're first!
[21:26] <craag> *fine
[21:26] <Maxell> harvy: and something like this? https://yo4hhp.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/uhf_yagi_4el_2.jpg
[21:26] <amell> not slate, its the usual stuff
[21:26] <harvy> craag: Not sure of the length though.
[21:26] <craag> harvy: Not really
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[21:26] <craag> harvy: I'd suggest getting a small yagi?
[21:27] <harvy> Maxell: Ohhhh shiny!
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[21:27] <harvy> craag: Like what Maxell suggested?
[21:27] <amell> The more i research my rocket stuff, the more i realise the hardware requirements are identical to HAB
[21:27] <Maxell> Keywords: "portable yagi"
[21:27] <daveake> I've done quite well with a small yagi taped to an open window
[21:27] <craag> harvy: Exactly like that :)
[21:27] <daveake> Only really works for payloads that side of the house, though!
[21:27] <eroomde> and the occassional snottiness of other people is identical to rocketry
[21:27] <eroomde> (sorry asbout that btw)
[21:27] <harvy> Ok, just ebaying it now
[21:28] <amell> eroomde: lol
[21:28] <amell> http://nathan.chantrell.net/20130923/tiny328-mini-wireless-arduino-clone/ looks better than modeino.
[21:28] <daveake> Anyone know if Clark masts have any mounting holes?
[21:29] <eroomde> on the top?
[21:29] <harvy> So does cable length have to be 70cm? What tolerence do I have on that?
[21:29] <craag> harvy: No
[21:29] <daveake> Sorry, wasn't clear ... no, at the base.
[21:29] <LeoBodnar> "portable" used to mean "can be carried by two engineers"
[21:29] <amell> what is a clark mast?
[21:29] <daveake> I might conveniently be able to bolt one to a vertical RSJ
[21:29] <eroomde> yes
[21:29] <eroomde> v2's were portable
[21:29] <craag> harvy: Cable length can be anything up to 5m or so
[21:30] <eroomde> amell: army-issue pneumatic telescoping masts
[21:30] <daveake> I'm having some landscaping done with a retaining wall put in for my shack ^h^h^h^h^h man-shed
[21:30] <craag> harvy: The longer the cable, the more signal you lose in it.
[21:30] <eroomde> can often be say 2m packed, 12m erected
[21:30] <eroomde> just need a compressor
[21:30] <mfa298> amell: try google you should find lots of examples -but very nice (and expensive) masts
[21:30] <amell> oh i have seen a couple of those at land rover shows.
[21:30] <eroomde> popular with amateurs
[21:30] <daveake> and the wall will be 3 RSJs with reclaimed railway sleepers between
[21:30] <amell> they are bloody huge
[21:30] <eroomde> yeah, they're often bolted to the back
[21:30] <daveake> bloody heavy too
[21:30] <daveake> cool
[21:30] <harvy> craag: I was under the assumption it had to match wavelegth / 2
[21:30] <daveake> Might need a man-drill to make holes in the RSJ :p
[21:31] <amell> saw one on a trailer. that was serious.
[21:31] <craag> harvy: The main element on the yagi itself does
[21:31] <amell> land rover show is a good place for that tech army surplus stuff.
[21:31] <craag> harvy: ie the one with the box on in maxell's pic
[21:31] <eroomde> right, i'm off
[21:31] <eroomde> time to leave work and go home
[21:31] <arko> pretty late to be a work ay?
[21:32] <arko> see ya!
[21:32] <eroomde> ;pcb design
[21:32] <eroomde> modulatyed with irc
[21:32] <arko> :)
[21:32] <eroomde> = slow progress
[21:32] <arko> haha
[21:32] <eroomde> but not too objectionable
[21:32] <eroomde> enough that's it's suddenly 10.30 when last time i looked it was 6.30
[21:32] <arko> yeah...
[21:33] <arko> time does that
[21:33] <LeoBodnar> use UTC
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> i spent all today fixing UTC...
[21:33] <Maxell> harvy: craag: he also has a picture of the magic inside: https://yo4hhp.wordpress.com/2013/04/05/portable-uhf-4-elements-yagi-antenna/
[21:33] <Laurenceb_> people running different dataloggers on UTC, non UTC
[21:33] <arko> wonder when B-47 will get to alaska
[21:34] <DL7AD> arko: it will but the question is if there's someone living who can recieve it
[21:34] <amell> i think we were predicting sometime tomorrow
[21:34] <amell> plenty of people live in alaska
[21:35] <amell> fairbanks, anchorage
[21:35] <DL7AD> but not at this part
[21:35] <DL1SGP> did this earlier, do not rant about it if you can make better post the link, ta http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/116187_trj001.gif
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[21:35] <LeoBodnar> model fail
[21:36] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
[21:36] <harvy> Guy's I'm out! Thanks for all the fish.
[21:37] <harvy> I will be back for some more later on!
[21:37] <amell> that model make it look like first landfall with aprs will be oregon/washington
[21:37] Action: Willdude123 wonders what exactly eroomde does at work
[21:37] <LeoBodnar> it's classified
[21:37] Action: Willdude123 realises the NDA probably bans him from knowing
[21:38] <amell> does it involve making things that kill people?
[21:38] <DL1SGP> Gute Nacht Lunar_Lander
[21:39] <amell> The MBDA euro missile project is really ramping up in stevenage.
[21:39] <amell> been asked to apply for a couple of jobs there.
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[21:42] Action: mikestir is getting windows rage
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[21:43] <Laurenceb_> too far south for APRS in alaska
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> lol euro missile
[21:44] <Laurenceb_> that just sounds lame
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[21:47] <aadamson> quick question for you UBX (binary protocol) gurus. When you send a poll request for a CFG command that returns a string of values. Does that original CFG poll also return a second UBX headered string with the ACK/OR NOT?
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[21:47] <aadamson> e.g. if you send the 0x06 0x24 poll, you get the 0x06 0x24 response, and then a 0x05 0x01 ACK?
[21:47] <aadamson> I wasn't expecting the later
[21:47] <aadamson> hence the quesiton
[21:48] <fsphil> yea that caught me out
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[21:49] <aadamson> fsphil, that response for my question?
[21:49] <fsphil> yea
[21:49] <fsphil> it returns two packets
[21:50] <aadamson> ok, thanks... yeah I read that CFG commands return ACK/NAK, but I wasn't expecting the response *AND* then ACK
[21:50] <aadamson> I figured the response would be the ACK :)
[21:50] <aadamson> oh, well... one more feature to add. Trying to parse UBX binary in a non-blocking mode with a state machine, and the broke the state machine :)
[21:51] <aadamson> the = that
[21:51] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar: ping
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[22:01] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ustream.tv/channel/iss-hdev-payload - is up again
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[22:05] <superkuh> SpeedEvil, thanks for the notification.
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[22:06] <amell> looks like it went again
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> It's so pretty when the cameras aren't all whited out.
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> Every 60s, it powers off the existing camera, and powers on the next one, which takes 15s to boot
[22:06] <SpeedEvil> And then there is loss of signal too
[22:06] <amell> seems a stupid system
[22:07] <SpeedEvil> somewhat
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[22:10] <amell> its back again
[22:10] <amell> guess what?
[22:11] <amell> I just saw B-47 float past.
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[22:14] <bertrik> what happened to icarus?
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[22:19] <mikestir> wtf windows. shut down already!
[22:20] <mikestir> "installing update 1 of 1" - I could have flattened and rebuilt it by now!
[22:21] <bertrik> yes, that's very annoying sometimes, especially on a laptop
[22:21] <mikestir> why do people still pay to use this pile of cack
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[22:25] <SiC> to get work done
[22:25] <SiC> :p
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[22:42] <Maxell> amell: SUPER HD?! :P
[22:52] <amell> :)
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[00:00] --- Wed May 7 2014