highaltitude.log.20140429

[00:04] <DL7AD> new prediction for B-47: http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypub/arlTraj.swf?client=gme-noaa&channel=OAR.ARL.HQ.HYSPLIT&dir=/hypubout/HYSPLITtraj_191575&data=/hysplit_metadata&ext=html
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[00:08] <malclocke> Is the creator of the VK3YT balloons in here? Understand they have done APRS in NZ and am interested in the tech.
[00:10] <Darkside> he's not online atm
[00:11] <Darkside> i may be abl to answer some questions though
[00:13] <malclocke> just wondering what transmitter was used, as NZ APRS seems to be on an unusual freq
[00:15] <malclocke> main one seems to be 144.575
[00:19] <Darkside> ah it was some small RF transciever IC, which with some softwar hacks can transmit AFSK
[00:19] <Darkside> though its fairly dirty AFSK
[00:19] <Darkside> its also frequency agil, hence being abl to switch to th NZ aprs frequency
[00:38] <malclocke> hmm, would be interested to know which one, haven't seen any so far that will do that freq
[00:38] <malclocke> 432.575 is allocated too but I'm not sure anyone uses it
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[02:02] <jiffe98> malclocke: I'm using https://www.argentdata.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=134 for our transmitter here in the states, its programmable from 144 to 148 MHz
[02:06] <Darkside> too big :P
[02:06] <Darkside> andy's pico trackers use a Si4464 chip i think
[02:07] <malclocke> jiffe98, that looks pretty good, maybe a little more $$ than I would like but the best option so far
[02:14] <malclocke> Darkside, Si4464 looks good too thanks, although I'm dubious of my homebrew skills for taking on anything too raw
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[02:15] <Darkside> malclocke: yeah, its a bit of work to get it going
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[03:32] <aadamson> thats some rough temperatures and lipo environments for B-47, plus tonight the battery is getting down in the really low range.
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[06:21] <test01> test
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[06:21] <eroomde> failed
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[06:34] <x-f> Slooh.com live - Annular Solar Eclipse (from Australia, partial there) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h342KVTsQMg
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[06:59] <DL7AD_mobile> Morning
[07:00] <sp2ipt_> hi
[07:01] Nick change: sp2ipt_ -> sp2ipt
[07:06] <fsphil> B-47 seems to have handled sunrise rather well
[07:08] <DL7AD_mobile> Krazy
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[07:35] <amell> interesting prediction for B-47 avoiding Iran and Caspian - might be in with a chance here, if the lipo survives the altitude/temp
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[08:06] <craag> Morning
[08:06] <craag> GDP pico launch imminent I hope
[08:08] <G8APZ> GM craag
[08:09] <G8APZ> B-46 seems to be shown with date/time in the future!
[08:10] <G8APZ> I can't see ASTRA on the map yet
[08:10] <craag> B-46 will still be running the APRS importer - which tends to do that
[08:10] <gonzo_> do you have the freq for GDP handy craag??
[08:10] <craag> Yep no ASTRA on rf from Southampton yet
[08:10] <craag> gonzo_: 434.550
[08:11] <craag> 460hz/7n2
[08:11] <gonzo_> ta
[08:11] <craag> Dunno if they have 3g at the launch site
[08:11] <G8APZ> No Astra in FLdigi either
[08:11] <craag> Ah, callsign is GDP
[08:12] <craag> Flight doc should be there
[08:12] <craag> And it's got a position in Southampton from testing last night
[08:12] <gonzo_> I shoul;d see it pretty quickly when up
[08:17] <craag> Ah delayed message from them half an hour ago.. planning to launch at 9:15
[08:19] <craag> Change of launch site - now heading up to Basingstoke
[08:24] <eroomde> last minute pre-flight total change of launch site
[08:25] <gonzo_> found a better pub?
[08:25] <craag> Predictions were getting wet and salty
[08:26] <craag> They've just arrived at the launch site
[08:26] <craag> So I don't think they've gone to Basingstoke
[08:27] <craag> Launch in a couple of minutes - riiight
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[08:37] <eroomde> lol
[08:38] <eroomde> i'm guessing its their first launch
[08:38] <craag> haha no, third
[08:38] <craag> first was a complete failure - not enough helium to lift the payload
[08:38] <craag> second the neck valve failed at a couple of km up
[08:39] <craag> (this is the SMS-triggered automatic launcher)
[08:39] <G8APZ> Hope they don't get any PPI spam!!
[08:40] <craag> hehe I do think it accepts any text
[08:40] <craag> Ok, they're still setting up
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[08:45] <craag> The ironic thing is that this should be a "open the car door, drop this thing out, close the door, send a text, watch it launch"
[08:45] <craag> That's the idea
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[08:46] <craag> But it instead needs 7x 4th-year aerospace engineers to poke and prod :P
[08:46] <daveake> highly automated then
[08:47] <daveake> Not exactly "lob 'n' launch"
[08:47] <craag> Just need to attach accomodation on the side to keep them in, and a couple of cattle prods to get them to launch it on time.
[08:47] <fsphil> put it in the boot of a car that has one of those remote openers
[08:47] <fsphil> job done :)
[08:48] <craag> The thinking was that this could be left on a flat roof somewhere out of Southampton.
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[08:48] <daveake> I think I shall make an automatic bacon/egg/muffin cooker
[08:48] <craag> (out of the flight paths)
[08:49] <craag> and triggered from the lecturer's armchair
[08:49] <daveake> craag what size balloon does this thing inflate?
[08:49] <craag> daveake: 100g hwoyee
[08:50] <daveake> ok, so possibly doesn't also need an automated notam application system
[08:51] <daveake> 'cos then the reply from DM could be used to enable it
[08:52] <eroomde> daveake: but a camping gas stove on a camping table is just one of those nice things
[08:52] <eroomde> styanding over there with some bacon frying
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[08:53] <eroomde> ideally on a slightly-too-cold morning
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[08:54] <gonzo_> an automated bacon fryinmg system would be better
[08:54] <eroomde> i quite like standing guard by the pan
[08:54] <eroomde> assuming i have a thermos of strong black coffee
[08:54] <fsphil> automated cooker in the style of walliace and gromit
[08:54] <gonzo_> that one was done decades ago. A teas maid
[08:55] <gonzo_> though the teasmaid was pretty poorly executed
[08:56] <eroomde> the breakfastomatic from chitty-chitty-bang-bang was good
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[08:56] <gonzo_> (remember someone telling me they brought one from a car boot. The pot had corroded through and it pissed water into the unit. So they woke up to a bang as it shorted when the alarm went off)
[08:56] <Student> Hello could someone explain me why my SPI is not working decent : Hardware PIC18F2682 , code : Main : http://pastebin.com/BV4gJPcj RFM22B : http://pastebin.com/XEcBGLit it's just the way the data is transferred there is some timing wrong i think but can't seem to see how
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[08:56] <eroomde> what kind of wrong Student?
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[08:57] <daveake> This only does 2 of the 3 required jobs http://www.amazon.co.uk/Tefal-Toast-Egg-TT550015-Toaster/dp/B0013KEDKY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1398761791&sr=8-3&keywords=tefal+egg
[08:57] <eroomde> do you have a logic analyser to look at what's actually being sent?
[08:57] <Student> Eroomde : if you're talking to me yes i do
[08:57] <eroomde> i don't know the ins and outs of pics or rfms as i have used neither, but spi problems frequency boil down to polarity and phase settings
[08:57] <daveake> +1
[08:57] <Student> The first byte is correct but then the rest is error
[08:57] <daveake> timing is unlikely
[08:58] <eroomde> yeah, as the master sets the timing
[08:58] <Student> Or all correct but too far away from each other
[08:58] <eroomde> oh ok, so there's a gap between the first byte and the subsequent ones?
[08:58] <Student> Could i send a file from salea logic ?
[08:58] <eroomde> is the clock continuiting during that gap, and is the chip-select line remaining low?
[08:58] <eroomde> you can send me a screenshot
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[08:59] <Student> Ok sec
[09:00] <daveake> A common problem would be to release and then re-apply CS, making it lots of separate conversations not one long one
[09:00] <eroomde> exactly
[09:01] <Student> https://www.dropbox.com/s/gna8k9qh68ng70a/test.PNG
[09:02] <Student> I was acctualy releasing the slave first between every byte
[09:02] <Student> but then the slave was getting released in between the clock i'll show it sec
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[09:05] <Student> https://www.dropbox.com/s/cuujs3jvprhu6xg/test2.PNG thats with cs release at every byte
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[09:05] <Student> The data is correct but doesn't work
[09:06] <eroomde> can you keep CS down for the duration?
[09:06] <eroomde> and are you expecting it to be gappy like that or were you hoping it would all send at once?
[09:06] <Student> How do you mean keep it down
[09:07] <eroomde> keep it low
[09:07] <Student> All the time ?
[09:07] <Student> I could put it down at the begin and end of the init
[09:07] <eroomde> well, how does this work
[09:07] <eroomde> what does 1 message to the rfm look like
[09:07] <eroomde> 2 bytes, one an address, one a byte to write to that address?
[09:07] <Student> Yes
[09:07] <eroomde> if i'm reading your code right?
[09:07] <eroomde> ok
[09:07] <eroomde> so
[09:08] <Student> The SPI from the arduino is way nicer than mine
[09:08] <eroomde> keep the CS pin down for the dureation of one message
[09:08] <eroomde> i.e. for both bytes
[09:08] <Student> Thats what i did in the first link
[09:08] <Student> but as you see it doesn't work decent for some reason
[09:09] <eroomde> i don't really understand why you're doing any of that
[09:09] <eroomde> have you tried it like this, to save me trying to parse what you're saying
[09:09] <eroomde> 1) CS line down
[09:09] <eroomde> 2) send 2 bytes
[09:09] <eroomde> 3) cs line back up
[09:09] <Student> Yes i did that
[09:09] <eroomde> ok, and it didn't work?
[09:09] <eroomde> could you possibly do it again and send a salae screencap?
[09:09] <daveake> <Student> Thats what i did in the first link
[09:10] <daveake> No it isn't
[09:10] <eroomde> yeah, the TEST.png looks wrong
[09:10] <eroomde> test.PNG*
[09:10] <daveake> You released CS part way through the 2nd byte
[09:10] <daveake> Then re-applied it
[09:10] <daveake> Do what eroomde says
[09:10] <eroomde> which is why i was getting confused trying to keep up with what you're saying you did
[09:10] <eroomde> this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gna8k9qh68ng70a/test.PNG is wrong
[09:10] <Student> Yes but according to code that's what he should do
[09:10] <daveake> Doubt it
[09:10] <eroomde> ok, we have a communication problem
[09:11] <eroomde> when i say 'did you do that' the question is did you do that
[09:11] <eroomde> not 'do you think that's what your code opught to have done'
[09:11] <eroomde> but, 'did you do that'
[09:11] <eroomde> understood?
[09:11] <Student> Yes i know what u mean
[09:11] <eroomde> ok cool
[09:11] <Student> But i'll rewrite it quickly to be sure
[09:11] <eroomde> so, it's obviously not working properly if that first screen capture is the result of what you think is CS-down throughout
[09:12] <eroomde> so, we need to fix that bit
[09:12] <daveake> I've not looked at the code (that's your job :p), but at a guess you're telling the h/w to send the byte then you're releasing CS in your code, without waiting for the h/w to fulfull its promise
[09:12] <eroomde> yeah, i agree with daveake. you might want to look to see if you PIC has an interrupt that fires when the spi buffer is empty
[09:12] <eroomde> AND THEN RELEASE
[09:12] <eroomde> sorry hit caps
[09:12] <Student> Okaj i did rewrite it now
[09:13] <Student> https://www.dropbox.com/s/8yypf8ycrl5ortu/test3.PNG is what i get this looks better but still not close to what the avr sends
[09:14] <eroomde> ok, that looks right
[09:14] <eroomde> in as much as it's sending two bytes correctly
[09:14] <Student> https://www.dropbox.com/s/qychdsn5irqh7gb/test4.PNG thats the avr
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[09:14] <eroomde> does the avr stuff you're comparing it to work, and if so can you provide a screencap of that?
[09:14] <daveake> Yeah I don't know what values you're trying to send but the SPI side looks fine (though the random delays seem odd)
[09:14] <Student> But what bothers me is that the avr keeps mosi idle high
[09:14] <eroomde> oh you beat me to it
[09:14] <eroomde> thanks
[09:15] <eroomde> oh
[09:15] <eroomde> the avr SPI MOSI is normally hi
[09:15] <eroomde> your pic one is normally low
[09:15] <Student> Okaj but that doesn't mather i guess then ?
[09:15] <eroomde> 08:57 < eroomde> i don't know the ins and outs of pics or rfms as i have used neither, but spi problems frequency boil down to polarity and phase settings
[09:15] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[09:15] <daveake> haha
[09:15] <eroomde> sorry for the doublepaste
[09:16] <daveake> I was about to quote those :)
[09:16] <Student> Yes but the rest of the setting should be on SPIMODE0
[09:17] <daveake> I shall gently suggest that if AVR does one thing and your code does another, and the AVR stuff works and yours doesn't, that there may be a clue here
[09:18] <daveake> Is there a requirement for CS to stay low for some (relatively long) period after the bytes finish?
[09:18] <Student> I wait tilla bit is a set after transmit
[09:18] <daveake> 'cos the AVR is doing that (deliberately or otherwise)
[09:18] <eroomde> it'll say in the rfm datasheet
[09:19] <Student> while ((SSPSTAT&0x01)==0x00);
[09:19] <daveake> ok sounds fair
[09:21] <amell> bacon frying?
[09:21] <amell> I heard that
[09:22] <eroomde> amell: jcoxon and I had a damn-good bacon sandwich on sunday morning
[09:22] <eroomde> in london
[09:22] <eroomde> it was one of those happy things, for me
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[09:23] <amell> When I see malcolm frying his bacon on a camp stove in his trailer - right next to a large box of rocket motors, it worries me.
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[09:23] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[09:23] <amell> Should I be worried?
[09:23] <eroomde> we can add it to the list of worrying things about malcolm
[09:23] <daveake> Only if an accident would destroy all the bacon
[09:23] <eroomde> they actually take some lighting, those things
[09:23] <amell> if that lot ignites, it would definately leave a crater
[09:24] <eroomde> i think they just conflagrate rather than explode
[09:24] <eroomde> especially if not in cases
[09:24] <eroomde> it'd make a heck of a smoke flare
[09:24] <daveake> Yes but what happens to the bacon?
[09:25] <eroomde> faster frying is good for bacon
[09:25] <daveake> perfect
[09:25] <amell> yes, blue streak and red lightning bacon smoke doesnt appeal.
[09:25] <eroomde> you get the caranmelisation on the outside but still some moisture in the middle
[09:25] <daveake> sounds like a positive result then
[09:25] <eroomde> basically yes
[09:25] <amell> eroomde: are you coming to Big EARS this weekend?
[09:26] <eroomde> oh is it this weekend?
[09:26] <eroomde> no, hadn't planned to
[09:26] <eroomde> i don't really have anything to fly atm
[09:26] <daveake> I shall use the smoker BBQ this weekend, for the first time since the move
[09:26] <eroomde> i should build something
[09:26] <amell> Yes, if you want to see a Contrail O6300 go up, be there.
[09:26] <eroomde> oh nice
[09:26] <amell> Colin Rowe is launching his blue peter rocket again.
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[09:26] <eroomde> i actually have part-ownership of an O20,000
[09:27] <eroomde> we were going to aim for balls this year but work (also an experimental rocket engine) got in the way
[09:27] <amell> This is the same guy who flew the reliant robin space shuttle.
[09:27] <eroomde> so hopefully next year
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[09:28] <amell> This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kntaSdgfAw will be flying sunday or monday, wind dependent.
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[09:30] <amell> you might want to skip to 5:10
[09:32] <G8APZ> Bloody irritating music isn't needed on videos!
[09:35] <amell> Theres a large number of M and Ns there this weekend too.
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[09:41] <mfa298> looks like GDP has updated on the map to a launch location
[09:42] <mfa298> although I'd wonder if launching that close to the M3 is wise as the predicion crosses the M3
[09:42] <amell> Well, i just tried to sim a minimum diameter O6300, and cant seem to get it over 15604 ft.
[09:42] <SIbot> In real units: 15604 ft = 4756 m
[09:43] <daveake> mfa298 That's OK balloon valves never fail ..... oh
[09:43] <G8APZ> apart from when they do!
[09:44] <mfa298> looking at the OS map looks like they've got 1km so might be ok.
[09:45] <mfa298> or at least 1 grid square (which I'm pretty sure is a km)
[09:45] <mfa298> looks like a launch it moved
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[09:46] <mfa298> although altitude isn't updaing
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[09:46] <mfa298> think I can see it on my waterfall at home with a poor antenna
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[09:47] <amell> wow. wouldnt launch that close to M3.
[09:47] <amell> and its off
[09:47] <mfa298> was it them that had an altitude bug last time where it jumped in steps
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[09:48] <amell> the position should be accurate though
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[09:49] Action: daveake awaits position update
[09:50] <daveake> woo
[09:50] <mfa298> ts-2000 looks to be on 434.552 although I think it reads slightly higher than everyone else
[09:50] <daveake> mfa298 looks like it still has that bug
[09:51] <mfa298> that's what I was suspectign when it seemed to move position but stay at the same altitude for a few early updates
[09:51] <amell> 587m now
[09:51] <amell> its launched?
[09:52] <daveake> 587 would be tricky otherwise
[09:52] <mfa298> crossing the M3 in that location would be hard if it hadn't launched as well
[09:53] <amell> currently passing the half moon and spread eagle
[09:53] <mfa298> not a bad pub that - or at least was ~10 years ago when I went there for a christmas meal.
[09:54] <gonzo_> they cleared the m3 ok then
[09:56] <gonzo_> I'm seeing signals centred around 434.5525
[09:56] <gonzo_> not strong enough for decode yet
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[09:57] <mfa298> I think it was fading a lot for me but that could be down to the rx antenna at my end
[09:57] <mfa298> (rg174 sleeve dipole dangling out the window) so upside down and very close to the building (re-inforced concrete)
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[09:58] <mfa298> I was getting almost complete sentences just now when I checked vnc
[09:58] <gonzo_> saw a bit opf a string, but fading for me too
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[10:00] <flyer__> hey guys GDP is up in the air
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[10:00] <mfa298> woohoo looks like I got a string (based on the map)
[10:00] <mfa298> flyer__: we noticed.
[10:00] <mfa298> well done
[10:01] <mfa298> although it looks like there's a bug getting/reporing altitude
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[10:01] <flyer__> yeah
[10:01] <flyer__> the altitude is an issue
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[10:02] <flyer__> updates extremely sporadically
[10:02] <mfa298> did you have somethign similar on the previous flight (or am I remembering someone else having the issue)
[10:03] <flyer__> yeah same issue
[10:03] <flyer__> last flight
[10:03] <G8APZ> and nobody found the bug?
[10:04] <flyer__> no. really cant test the gps
[10:04] <daveake> wut?
[10:04] <flyer__> altitude
[10:04] <flyer__> without flying.
[10:04] <daveake> course you can
[10:04] <daveake> dummy data
[10:05] <daveake> GPS emulator
[10:05] <gonzo_> I still don't understand why it is common to decode/recode the GPS data in the air. It's an extra complication.
[10:05] <flyer__> hearig it for the 1st time
[10:05] <flyer__> sorry
[10:05] <mfa298> or at least determine if it's a hardware issue (gps not gettign a good enough signal) or software (formatting going wrong)
[10:07] <flyer__> i mean the altitude updates
[10:07] <flyer__> but not as often as the position
[10:08] <flyer__> at the moment the altitude is about 1405
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[10:10] <mfa298> even adding in what sort of fix the gps thinks it has to the telemetry could have been a useful debugging tool
[10:11] <LeoBodnar> that's a good accuracy
[10:11] <mfa298> its claiming 10/11 sats but it's as if it's only got a 2D lock most of the time
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[10:12] <G8APZ> I should be hearing a signal .... but I'm not!
[10:12] <gonzo_> it's not too strong wioth me still
[10:13] <flyer__> where about are you??
[10:13] <G8APZ> Brentwood Essex
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[10:15] <flyer__> hmmm. Maybe you'll get it once it climbs higher
[10:15] <G8APZ> hope so... I usually hear sigs if I'm inside the blue ring on the map
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[10:18] <mfa298> that was a quick trip to the north pacific and back (that seems like another familiar bug)
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[11:04] <simium> Hi
[11:05] <simium> I'd like to know if there's experience with tracking payloads launched from Spain
[11:07] <Maxell> GDP ballon is Freq 434.550 MHz
[11:07] <Maxell> 50 baud rate 7n2 450Hz shift
[11:09] <Maxell> Right?
[11:10] <mfa298> Maxell: sounds about right
[11:10] <mfa298> although freq might be slightly higher (.552)
[11:11] <mfa298> simium: there's been a couple of hab flights in spain
[11:12] <simium> mfa298: were they successfully tracked by the spacenear.us/tracker?
[11:13] <mfa298> at least one set was although that was done by a UK group and I'm not sure there were many other trackers
[11:13] <daveake> The Register did some flights there, and almost all of the tracking they did themselves
[11:14] <daveake> There was one other receiver I think
[11:14] <mfa298> wasnt the first habduino someone in spain as well - but I think he was the only one tracking that one as well
[11:15] <x-f> on 1st March there was a launch from Portugal
[11:15] <x-f> probably that one
[11:16] <simium> been reading about you and your tracking guides for some time and now I'm planning a flight next year
[11:16] <simium> I wondered if my payload would reach anyone over the Pyrenees
[11:17] <mfa298> if you want additional trackers it would be worth talking to your local amateur radio clubs as they are often interested and may have suitable recievers
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[11:18] <simium> great, i will consider the amateur clubs
[11:19] <simium> I made myself a yagi and was able to listen to the ISS with a SDR dongle but I could not hear any data incoming (although i could see the coloured bands in the software)
[11:19] <simium> end of my radio experience :)
[11:20] <daveake> About as much as I had when I started HAB :p
[11:20] <daveake> And now I have a full but unused licence :/
[11:23] <simium> hehe radio license and hardware are expensive for a one-man team, so I considered relying on your network
[11:23] <fsphil> don't do that :)
[11:24] <simium> if I had a successful flight I would definitely get the license (at least)
[11:24] <fsphil> the person launching and chasing will always tend to be the person receiving the most important data (just before and after landing)
[11:24] <x-f> you don't need the licence for receiving
[11:25] <simium> aha
[11:26] <simium> but if I had the license I could use APRS
[11:26] <simium> which looks to work solid
[11:26] <x-f> true
[11:27] <x-f> perhaps you can team up with some local radioamateur and launch the APRS transmitter under his callsign
[11:28] <mfa298> although with aprs the amount of telemetry you can get is more limited. we've had updates at ~1s, aprs people will moan if you go above once every 5 minutes
[11:29] <simium> nice to know
[11:29] <mfa298> although there's nothing to stop you using both (apart from cost and weight)
[11:29] <mfa298> (at least once you have the radio license)
[11:30] <simium> let's check ebay for some 70 cm radios :)
[11:30] <G8APZ> with USB...not just FM!
[11:31] <simium> ok, thanks!
[11:32] <simium> I think I read one of your guides on choosing radios...
[11:32] <mfa298> there's a list of some suitable radios on the tracking guide (I think)
[11:32] <mfa298> although you'll tend to find they get expensive
[11:33] <mfa298> cheapest good option is probably the funcube pro+ dongle but you need a laptop to use it
[11:33] <simium> there's a handy guide here: ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[11:34] <simium> cheap sdr dongle is not an option?
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[11:35] <mfa298> people have used them but they're not as sensitive as the funcube
[11:35] <simium> good to know
[11:35] <daveake> I think the Funcube is *well* worth the extra money
[11:35] <Student> Hello could a internal clock cause problem with SPI on a pic controller ?
[11:35] <daveake> Especially as you won't have many/any othe rtrackers helping
[11:35] <daveake> Student no
[11:36] <mfa298> the funcube pro+ works in the same way as the cheap sdr dongles but designed for the purpose and much better design
[11:36] <daveake> The master controls the clock, so timing isn't an issue so long as it isn't too fast
[11:36] <Student> Okaj thanks so than i'm still stuck
[11:36] <daveake> There will be a max clock rate for the device justmake sure yours is slower
[11:37] <Student> Ye the clock speed i got is fine
[11:38] <simium> daveake: are you THE dave? wow, thanks for the tip :)
[11:38] <Student> It's just the odd delays between the data that's pretty much ruining it
[11:38] <daveake> there are many daves :)
[11:38] <daveake> The delays won't matter
[11:38] <simium> not many like you! hehe
[11:38] <daveake> They are strange though - if you can't explain why they happen then that may indicate something strange going on
[11:39] <daveake> probably for the best simium :p
[11:39] <simium> Ok, I have to go, thank you guys for all your tips, I'll try to stay in touch
[11:40] <malgar> hi, in the dl-fldigi (HAB) I don't see any way to log the text outout. Is it possible?
[11:40] <daveake> Right-click the text area and chose "save as"
[11:41] <malgar> perfect :) tnx
[11:44] <malgar> I would like to send data to habhub server to test the whole system Which is the best way to do it since it will not be a real flight?
[11:45] <daveake> Just run the tracker, and receive with dl-fldigi online. You'll need a payload document but not a flight doc
[11:46] <mfa298> although idelly don't test during an active flight (like there is at the moment)
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[11:46] <daveake> Yes good point
[11:46] <daveake> That does get annoying
[11:47] <mfa298> although Leo does make testing when there's not a flight on harder
[11:47] <daveake> Though with Leo's flights, it gets tricky finding a time when there isn't a flught
[11:47] <daveake> oh damn too slow :)
[11:47] <db_g6gzh> malgar: you can log everything received direct to file also: misc -> text i/o
[11:47] <G8APZ> Looks like GDP is making for the Somerset levels and the sea! Altitude pretty constant, so no reason for it to pop
[11:47] <daveake> Is GDP supposed to float ?
[11:48] <mfa298> G8APZ: it has a bug that altitude doesn't update always (which they also had last flight)
[11:48] <LeoBodnar> is flught Gerglish?
[11:48] <G8APZ> No idea! I assume that because there is/was a chase car that it wasn't a floater!
[11:48] <daveake> I'm flughent in Gerglish
[11:51] <malgar> I'm quite worried about the behaviour of the gps. Sometimes it takes up to 10 min to get signal and signal is lost very often. In this moment I receive 6 satellites but avery 2-3 minutes I get no data for 30-40 sec
[11:52] <mfa298> hmmmm, taking a couple of data points around 30 minutes apart I get .7m/s (assumign it's still going up)
[11:53] <mfa298> and it was at that point as there are higher altitudes later in that polt
[11:53] <mfa298> s/polt/plot/
[11:54] <mfa298> although I don't think they intended it to float
[11:54] <mfa298> that calc was based on taking a time and altitude from the first sentence at a given altitude.
[11:54] <mattbrejza> malgar: what gps?
[11:55] <fsphil> harsh altitude plot
[11:55] <malgar> ublox7 on the board + antenna made by Upu
[11:56] <mattbrejza> chip ant?
[11:56] <malgar> ant?
[11:56] <mattbrejza> antenna
[11:58] <mattbrejza> dont suppose you happen to have a max6 you can compare against?
[11:58] <malgar> similar to this one
[11:58] <malgar> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=68
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[12:00] <mattbrejza> oh right
[12:01] <mattbrejza> ive noticed the max7 does worse on the boards i have compared to the max6
[12:01] <mattbrejza> im the only one to do a side by side though
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[12:02] <mattbrejza> people fly max7s, but i dont know how those ones compare to a max6 or the slow max7s that i have
[12:06] <aadamson> mattbrejza, I tested some Max7's the other day... a) they are extermely sensative to static and any direct static will damage them. They will try to work, but I suspect the LNA in the Reciever is damaged, they act similar to what has been suggested
[12:07] <aadamson> they will get a lock with 3 or 4 sat, but never get any more and they will lose it rather frequently
[12:07] <aadamson> second, they are *extremely* sensative to their surroundings.
[12:08] <aadamson> Anything above the gps chip, or near the antenna will cause them to react slowly
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[12:09] <aadamson> and that specified distance between the chip antenna mounting pad and the ground plane is *critical*, too much - poor performance, too little - poor performance
[12:11] <aadamson> also, in theory the microstrip needs to match the impedance of the RF side of the chip as well - this is the trace between the chip antenna and the RF in on the GPS, this not only means width of that trace, but also clearance from the ground plane around it
[12:11] <aadamson> I had what some would call a *slow* Max7, removed it and replaced it with a new one and it was amazing the difference
[12:11] <aadamson> I had somehow damaged with static the prior one even though it tried to work occasionally
[12:12] <aadamson> and would respond via serial with no issue
[12:12] <mattbrejza> well i have some modules from upu, and they all perform the same
[12:12] <mattbrejza> i cant see both being statically damaged
[12:13] <aadamson> they work the same on the same board?
[12:13] <aadamson> if so, then I'd look at how the board was done
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[12:13] <mattbrejza> this is the breakout with the chip antenna
[12:13] <aadamson> my board, is now working up to 10 sats with no problem. I can repeat the warm startup time almost exactly and occasionally I see hot start of sub 1s lock
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[12:14] <aadamson> even with that, I know there are some changes that I need to make on my board to improve things
[12:14] <aadamson> the biggest problem with the 7c's is the standby current it really large compared to the 7Q, but the 7Q won't work at 1.8v
[12:15] <mattbrejza> well the biggest problem is they dont get lock...
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[12:15] <aadamson> I've only had that problem on one chip and that was after I somehow damaged it
[12:15] <aadamson> the one I replaced it with has been awesome
[12:16] <aadamson> I can go from cold to 7 sats in less than a minute
[12:16] <mattbrejza> well ive had two that perform equally as bad and i didnt solder
[12:16] <mattbrejza> just took them out the box and connected to serial
[12:16] <aadamson> and one I've got lock, power off, power on restarts (with back up power) is less than 15-20sec
[12:16] <mattbrejza> is that the tcxo one?
[12:16] <aadamson> not sure what to tell you... Look at Leo's sat telem, he's always in the 6-8 range with occasional 10
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[12:17] <aadamson> all of mine are the 7C's
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[12:17] <aadamson> I don't have any 7Q's
[12:17] <mattbrejza> i cant see the breakouts being damaged
[12:17] <aadamson> and I have no experience with the breakouts.
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[12:17] <mattbrejza> unless somehow that black foam stuff is the opposite of antistatic
[12:17] <aadamson> Sorry only the modules themselves
[12:18] Nick change: crash_18974_ -> crash_18974
[12:18] <mattbrejza> well the breakouts are just a pcb with a chip ant on them
[12:18] <mattbrejza> nothing more than that
[12:18] <aadamson> you might talk to Anthony and see if there are revisions to the breakout
[12:18] <craag> GDP is dead :/
[12:19] <aadamson> I don't know if it's a reference design or something he put together and may have multiple revisions of as he found how to improve it's performance
[12:19] <mattbrejza> fairly sure tehrs been no revisions
[12:19] <mfa298> craag: dead as in payload failed or just dead as in unlikely to be recoverable.
[12:20] <mattbrejza> craag: shitty battery?
[12:20] <aadamson> craag, what does that mean (haven't been following the bouncing ball this am)
[12:20] <craag> mfa298: I just watched the signal shoot off to the left and not come back
[12:20] <craag> So vreg gave up
[12:20] <junderwood> dead as in frequency went crazy then stopped transmitting completely
[12:20] <craag> mattbrejza: yep ;)
[12:20] <aadamson> temp issue maybe?
[12:20] <mfa298> it was looking like they might have run out of land as well with it.
[12:20] <mattbrejza> well they knew this was going to happen?
[12:20] <LeoBodnar> microstrip can't be << wavelength, otherwise it is just a lumped component
[12:21] <craag> mattbrejza: I told them it would if they didn't get a good ascent rate
[12:21] <craag> And well... they didn't
[12:21] <junderwood> The frequency shift over the last few minutes looked like it was coming down and getting cold
[12:21] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, was that a new low for your lipo battery over night/>
[12:21] <aadamson> ?
[12:21] <mfa298> I'm assuming they were hoping for a much higher ascent rate (I calculated it as averaging 0.75m/s)
[12:21] <craag> junderwood: The temperature sensor is outside the casing, and given the adafruit gps, I reckon it was quite warm in there!
[12:22] <mattbrejza> did they particuarly want it back?
[12:22] <craag> That thing gets hot to the touch
[12:22] <craag> mattbrejza: I don't think so
[12:22] <mattbrejza> i guess this proves it works
[12:22] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, new low as in voltage, did it trigger your shutdown logic?
[12:22] <craag> I wouldn't, given how awful it looks!
[12:22] <junderwood> just going off the frequency drift which is usually due to temperature
[12:22] <junderwood> but could also be flat battery
[12:22] <craag> Yeah, were using 2x 240mAh lipos in series
[12:22] <junderwood> another one not coming back
[12:23] <craag> then regulated down to 5V
[12:23] <craag> It's an NTX2B so temperature wouldn't have affected it
[12:23] <craag> It would have been the dropping 5V Vcc of the arduino
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[12:26] <LeoBodnar> doesn't like it did. i am more intersted in envelope for now than battery nightlife
[12:27] <LeoBodnar> not sure it's worth the effort to make it work all night at -50C
[12:28] <LeoBodnar> +look
[12:29] <eroomde> what the hell is up with gdp
[12:30] <adamgreig> lol
[12:31] <LeoBodnar> triple dip recession
[12:31] <daveake> GDP nose-dives after heavy inflation
[12:31] <eroomde> altitute profile is fascinating
[12:31] <eroomde> is that a lassen?
[12:31] <eroomde> this whole thing is just made of fail
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[12:31] <eroomde> have these guys managed a non-automatic launch yet?
[12:32] <eroomde> no offense if they're reading, they just need to stop launching fail and learn the basics
[12:32] <mattbrejza> oi
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[12:32] <mattbrejza> dont insult lassens :P
[12:32] <LeoBodnar> start with QBASIC
[12:33] <mattbrejza> craag: was the launch prod required this time?
[12:33] <daveake> move on to PICAXE
[12:33] <eroomde> mattbrejza: is it a lassen then?
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[12:33] <mattbrejza> nope
[12:33] <eroomde> oh
[12:33] <mattbrejza> adafruit i seem to remember
[12:34] <eroomde> i've seen the stair-casing thing with lassens before, when they have poor snr
[12:34] <eroomde> adafruit is what module?
[12:34] <eroomde> it might be trimble iirc, same engine as lassen
[12:34] <Darkside> adafruit ultimate gps?
[12:34] <Darkside> thats a mediatek thing, will work up to 27km
[12:34] <mattbrejza> yea thats the one i think
[12:35] <LeoBodnar> aadamson: i have sent telemetry definitions once long time ago and it just "sticks"
[12:36] <mattbrejza> ive had a lassen stop giving position when the ground plane touched the metal can on the bottom of the antenna
[12:36] <LeoBodnar> on aprs.fi - nobody does it apart from them anyway
[12:36] <craag> mattbrejza: I wasn't there this morning
[12:36] <mattbrejza> the antenna requirement of the lassen is certainly more annoying
[12:36] <mattbrejza> oh righ
[12:36] <mattbrejza> t
[12:36] <craag> Been out - got back in and was on the phone to binay when it finally shot off the end of the waterfall
[12:37] <craag> THey're on their way back to soton
[12:37] <mattbrejza> how far did they chase it for?
[12:37] <craag> About as far as Warminster
[12:37] <mfa298> I think I saw them around warminster on the map
[12:37] <craag> yeah
[12:38] <craag> They stopped and sorted the app and stuff out
[12:38] <craag> as their laptop ran out of battery!
[12:38] <craag> and they hadn't taken the charger...
[12:38] <Darkside> >_>
[12:38] <Darkside> ohd ear
[12:39] <mattbrejza> i wonder if they rememebered to charge the radio battery and stuff like that
[12:39] <adamgreig> so they'll be getting good marks for their project I take it
[12:39] <craag> The first launch - they laughed when I turned up with 3g magmount antenna+wifi, radio psu, inverter, etc
[12:39] <adamgreig> what was their plan?
[12:39] <craag> And of course their 3g hasn't been working..
[12:39] <adamgreig> :P
[12:39] <mfa298> if passing the degree was reliant on actually making something that worked there would be a lot of disappointed aero students
[12:40] <Darkside> ehh, phone coverage is for wimps
[12:40] <mattbrejza> the cedars kids thought much better of your car when they realised all the stuff it had in it
[12:40] <Darkside> offline tracking ftw :P
[12:40] <eroomde> i think that's true of a lot of degree projects
[12:40] <mattbrejza> agreed :P
[12:40] <mfa298> although as success goes this seems to have been an improvment on the previous few years
[12:40] <daveake> Someone point them at http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:chasing_your_flight when they get back
[12:40] <mattbrejza> android decoder with maps :)
[12:40] <craag> adamgreig: Erm, launch and chase it. But they hadn't realised that if it actually worked, then they wouldn't have right prediction/battery life to get it back
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[12:41] <eroomde> can they be pointed towards this irc channel
[12:41] <eroomde> for some sympathetic abuse (in their best interests)
[12:41] <Darkside> mattbrejza: we use fldigi, but our own interface to a mapping program commonly used in australia
[12:41] <Darkside> called, funnily enough "ozixplorer"
[12:41] <mattbrejza> :P
[12:41] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, Thanks, yeah pretty much figured that out... curious I guess you *reuse* those csT bits in the compressed position report, so you don't use them for altitude?
[12:42] <mattbrejza> before the app i had something that would connect to fldigi and use mappoint
[12:42] <Darkside> mattbrejza: yeah, that kind of thing is useful, we also built in the predictor so we have offline predictions
[12:42] <craag> eroomde: Yes, their payload engineer was receptive to comments and had come along to SUSF meetings to get the payload working (he had zero programming experience afaik)
[12:42] <mattbrejza> but i dont like having to use laptops to track
[12:42] <Darkside> we just dump the gfs data to disk the morning of launch
[12:42] <Darkside> mattbrejza: you've seen the pictures of our chase cars, right?
[12:43] <craag> The rest of them took the typical academic approach of not needing advice from a bunch of amateurs
[12:43] <mattbrejza> yep
[12:43] <Darkside> mattbrejza: we don't generally use laptops >_>
[12:43] <Darkside> there's a P4 in the back of that landcruiser
[12:43] <Darkside> in dire need of an upgrade
[12:43] <Darkside> but it still works
[12:43] <eroomde> does it use as much as the starter motor?
[12:43] <mattbrejza> i was working on a offline preedictor that uses data gathered by the ascent to predict the descent
[12:44] <mattbrejza> but jhavnt got round to building it into the app
[12:44] <eroomde> so my soekris box, with 4x intel gigabit NICs, uses 8W
[12:44] <eroomde> it costs £250
[12:44] <mattbrejza> currently it grabs from snus which is fine as it doesnt really need to update every time
[12:44] <eroomde> i was in two mins about getting one for home but thought that was a bit pricey
[12:44] <Darkside> mattbrejza: i may be getting paid to writ somtehign lik this
[12:44] <aadamson> Hey LeoBodnar what specs did you have your batteries made to?
[12:44] <Darkside> but it'll be interfacing to our own prediction software, not nexessarily to anythign else
[12:44] <eroomde> but then i worked out that a cheap pc build equivalent would be about £100 more/yr to run than the soekris
[12:45] <eroomde> and getting intel nics individually is expensive
[12:45] <Darkside> eroomde: it uses a lot of power, yes
[12:45] <mattbrejza> the cusf predictor is nice and simple, just rewrote it in java one evening
[12:45] <Darkside> hence the reason for wanrting to upgrade it
[12:45] <Darkside> mattbrejza: heh, we're using some ancient 'pred.exe' file
[12:45] <LeoBodnar> cold weather + cheap
[12:45] <Darkside> dunno much about it, terry got it working
[12:45] <Darkside> it takes .dat files, which look to be CSV's
[12:46] <Darkside> geopotential height, then what i think is the wind vector
[12:46] <Darkside> has 'u' and 'v' components
[12:46] <gonzo_> did GDP just die?? or was the alt lying towards the end?
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[12:46] <aadamson> hehe... of course, just curious they are -40C, but what C rating and are they 200's or 250mahs?
[12:46] <craag> gonzo_: Battery died
[12:46] <craag> Was still ascending
[12:46] <Darkside> hang on
[12:46] <craag> probably will be for the rest of today!
[12:46] <Darkside> did they fly lipos?!
[12:46] <mattbrejza> we've chased and almost seen come down without any internet connection or prediction, in the end experience is a good enough predictor
[12:46] <eroomde> why u rewrite in java mattbrejza ?
[12:46] <eroomde> what did it ever do to you?
[12:47] <mattbrejza> because android
[12:47] <Darkside> mattbrejza: we've seen it come down many many times
[12:47] <Darkside> mattbrejza: because, predictions
[12:47] <Darkside> we just drive to the landing size, then just move around as th epredictions change with new data
[12:47] <Darkside> landing site*
[12:47] <mattbrejza> well this time we didnt see it come down as this country lane was closed for waterworks ¬.¬
[12:47] <Darkside> its somewhat easier for us to get into place i guess, as its pretty open country where we fly
[12:48] <mattbrejza> you can just drive along the desert right?
[12:48] <Darkside> and most of the roads are either 110kph or 80kph
[12:48] <Darkside> mattbrejza: not quite
[12:48] <mattbrejza> stand out the sunroof and pick it out hte sky
[12:48] <Darkside> the biggst issue is the fields are so fricking huge
[12:48] <Darkside> like, you have 20x20km areas with no roads
[12:48] <Darkside> well, no public roads
[12:48] <Darkside> and we don't have right of way
[12:48] <mattbrejza> yea thats annoying
[12:49] <Darkside> so we always go and find the farmer
[12:49] <Darkside> who could be another 10km away
[12:49] <Darkside> yay australia
[12:49] <mattbrejza> is it all open and flat so seeing it come down is easier?
[12:49] <Darkside> yeah, that does help
[12:49] <eroomde> get a big quadcopter
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[12:50] <Darkside> eroomde: hot motors + dry fields
[12:51] <Darkside> we hav to be very careful not to set fields on fire
[12:51] <eroomde> yeah those motors can be fatal...?
[12:51] <Darkside> thre have been a heap of bushfires started in this state from petrol cars driving across fields, or even across empty sections of land with weeds growing
[12:51] <eroomde> careless torque costs lives
[12:51] <Darkside> eroomde: catalytic converter is very hot
[12:52] <Darkside> and sets wheat on fire
[12:52] <daveake> ho ho ho :)
[12:52] <Darkside> im not kidding
[12:52] <daveake> I mean eroomde's pun
[12:52] <eroomde> quadcopters do have catalytic converters
[12:52] <jonsowman> get a diesel :p
[12:52] <eroomde> don't have*
[12:52] <Darkside> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyre_Peninsula_bushfire
[12:52] <Darkside> that was reportedly started by a guy driving a petrol ute across a field
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[12:54] <Darkside> eroomde: its also the reason whyw e don't fly hf payloads anymore
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[12:54] <Darkside> different country, different problems
[12:54] <eroomde> because low frequencies start fires?
[12:55] <Darkside> eroomde: because 20m of wire landing across a powerline does
[12:55] <Darkside> we've had a few close calls
[12:55] <eroomde> i'd have thought it would just provide a nice trial of ions
[12:55] <Darkside> hav landed on powerlines twice now
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[12:56] <Darkside> but we were abl to cut the brickies line and pull the loose line over each time
[12:56] <Darkside> eroomde: all it takes is a few sparks
[12:56] <Darkside> remember: dry country
[12:56] <Darkside> bushfires start in australia from empty glass bottles
[12:57] <gonzo_> we had a tin roof torn off in gales and wrap around 11kv lines. That was impressive
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[12:58] <gonzo_> the threats from the power com pany for compensation was less nice
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[12:59] <Darkside> yeah we have some massive 275kv lines under out regular flight path which we really want to avoid
[12:59] <Darkside> we usually don't fly if the prediction has it landing anywhere nwear them
[13:00] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqRT7J86rco
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[13:01] <eroomde> the awesome way to make nitrogen dioxide
[13:01] <eroomde> our neighbours use MoN (mostly N2)2) as a rocket oxidiser and after engine shutdown there's a nice brown cloud like that that wafts across the fields
[13:01] <eroomde> it's the reason we have emergengy brething apparatus in the office when they're testing
[13:02] <daveake> Suffocating cows again?
[13:06] <eroomde> zackly
[13:08] <eroomde> melting their lungs, more precisely
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[13:13] <GW8RAK> nut
[13:13] <GW8RAK> Just wondering where the word nut went. Was typing into another search box.
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[13:14] <number10> I was watching an interesting youtube clip - of the carfull filling of C-Stoff and T-Stoff in the Me 163 - no tankers were alowed on the airfield at same time
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[13:15] <number10> interesting times to be a rocket engineer - not so good for pilots
[13:15] <LeoBodnar> i have it here on my screen
[13:15] <LeoBodnar> i can email it back to you
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[13:20] <Maxell> I have the feeling something did not go OK with the GDP balloon.
[13:21] <Darkside> lol
[13:21] <Darkside> no shit.
[13:21] <daveake> Thanks Captain Obvious :)
[13:26] <eroomde> you could use this flight as an attempt to illustrate bayes rule
[13:27] <eroomde> given the track record of gdp, what did we expect the outcome of today to be
[13:27] <eroomde> et voila, the power of prediction
[13:27] <LazyLeopard> ;)
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[13:29] <f4bea> Hi ! Someone knows the frequency for GDP please ?
[13:31] <Darkside> its gone flat
[13:32] <mfa298> at the current rate maybe in 10 years the aero gdp team will get a working flight.
[13:32] <junderwood> f4bea, 0 Hz
[13:32] <mfa298> then another 20 years and they might manage a working cubesat
[13:37] <eroomde> their like their carrier frequency like they like their probability of success
[13:37] <eroomde> they like*
[13:39] <UpuWork> interesting track on GDP
[13:39] <eroomde> yeah really splendid
[13:39] <craag> UpuWork: Adafruit :/
[13:40] <UpuWork> aweomse
[13:40] <UpuWork> haha
[13:40] <UpuWork> much as I dislike Adafruit it needs some help do product a track like that
[13:40] <UpuWork> s/do/to
[13:40] <UpuWork> etc
[13:41] <craag> Yeah it's definitely responsible for the altitude steps
[13:41] <craag> Not sure what's going on with the glitchy positions
[13:41] <UpuWork> nah that must be code as well
[13:41] <UpuWork> as I've flown an Adafruit
[13:41] <craag> It's losing 3d lock
[13:41] <UpuWork> and it was fine right up until I dumped it in the English channel
[13:41] <UpuWork> getting jammed ?
[13:41] <craag> so spits out an altitude of 0
[13:41] <craag> I got them to change it so it reported last known altitude
[13:42] <UpuWork> ok
[13:42] <craag> It's just an NTX2B with a linear reg.
[13:42] <craag> Nothing to jam it really
[13:42] <UpuWork> no cameras ?
[13:42] <UpuWork> thats very odd
[13:42] <craag> nope
[13:42] <UpuWork> that module does work and doesn't produce steps like that
[13:43] <craag> It is a horrible bundle of wires crammed into a polystyrene coffee cup
[13:43] <UpuWork> software serial ?
[13:43] <UpuWork> ah
[13:43] <craag> Nope ,hw serial
[13:43] <UpuWork> well wires
[13:43] <craag> Yeah, I did repeatedly *encourage* them to make sure the GPS module was in the apex of the cup, looking upwards.
[13:44] <craag> Wasn't there today though, so dunno if it was
[13:44] Action: UpuWork shrugs
[13:44] <mfa298> if its all jammed in a coffee cup what's the betting it's stuffed in with the gps on top, then turned upside down to put on the payload train
[13:44] <UpuWork> you can lead a horse to water...
[13:44] <craag> mfa298: They did that the first time...
[13:45] <mfa298> its the sort of mistake I can imagine lots of people making
[13:46] <mfa298> yeah that'll be fine, the gps is on top so will get good position, then turn it all over
[13:49] <eroomde> 13:44 < UpuWork> you can lead a horse to water...
[13:49] <eroomde> i think this horse metaphor is more apt with GDP
[13:49] <eroomde> 13:44 < UpuWork> you can lead a horse to water...
[13:49] <eroomde> http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/dead-horse.gif
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[13:57] <mfa298> related: http://www.gospelweb.net/HumorWorks/genhumor8.htm
[13:58] <eroomde> yes i like that
[13:58] <mfa298> several of those could apply in this case
[13:59] <LeoBodnar> 4. Appointing a committee to study the horse.
[13:59] <LeoBodnar> My horse is not working.
[14:02] <fsphil> I had been reading about the demise of Commodore. They seemed to follow that list
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[14:23] <UpuWork> if anyone sees any B-47 uploads from Greece let me know and I'll kill the APRS imported
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[14:37] <BalYOLO> Guys, am uploading a few sentences but reception on the dongle seems to be a lot weaker than usual.. is this a problem?
[14:37] <mfa298> if it's only testing it may not be a problem
[14:38] <BalYOLO> Yeah testing
[14:38] <mfa298> but you'de want to ensure it's a good strong signal if you're going to launch it.
[14:38] <mfa298> check antennas and connections as the first step
[14:40] <eroomde> i don't agree with mfa298
[14:40] <eroomde> if reception is troublesome on the ground, that's a bad sign
[14:40] <BalYOLO> yeah
[14:41] <eroomde> got a picture on the payload?
[14:41] <eroomde> of the*
[14:41] <BalYOLO> Just quite weak
[14:41] <eroomde> i'd be interested specifically in the antenna and in the connection between antenna and tracker
[14:41] <daveake> check aerial at each end. e.g. is it connected
[14:42] <eroomde> yeah, it will be audible but faint at such close range without an antenna
[14:42] <daveake> Also, make sure you're tuned to the actual signal and not to one of the intermodulation products
[14:43] <Laurenceb> ur an intermodulation product
[14:45] <BalYOLO> Can't pick up any radio stations on SDR either - wondering if its a receiving problem..
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[14:46] <eroomde> possibly
[14:46] <eroomde> might have got static zapped
[14:47] <gonzo_> check antennas at your tracker and your receiver. As the problem col=ule be either end
[14:47] <gonzo_> (pft, another out of date reply!. Slow vnc)
[14:50] <BalYOLO> Had a fiddle with receiver and its improving
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[14:58] <x-f> SV2BBO is receiving B-47, a few full sentences 15 minutes ago
[14:58] <x-f> (from logtail)
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[14:59] <x-f> ah, nevermind, just looked at snus
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[15:41] <G4MYS-2> On what frequency is GDP Please?
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[15:47] <G4MYS-2> have search whole of 434Mhz no sign of GDP anyone any idea if a ballon is up and if so the frequency please?!
[15:47] <daveake> It died, in many ways
[15:48] <aadamson> stop/start acceleration not the least of them :)... (just based upon the spacenear plot - and yes I know it didn't really do that)
[15:48] <Maxell> G4MYS-2: it is borken
[15:49] <craag> G4MYS-2: Out of battery
[15:49] <Upu> Anyone going to be upset if I remove it ?
[15:49] <G4MYS-2> Maxwell & Craag many thanks thay may explain a lot and sorry to here of its problem! 73 Andy
[15:50] <daveake> It's probably lying in a field, being laughed at by a colony of Duracell bunnies
[15:50] <craag> Upu: I'll text them quickly to find out
[15:51] <daveake> s/upset/pleased/
[15:51] <Upu> its making a mess :)
[15:52] <craag> haha I see, looks a lot worse on snus!
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[15:53] <mfa298> daveake: lol :D
[15:54] <M6SFC> Hi Andy
[15:55] <mfa298> if not in a field being laughed at by the duracell bunnies it's probably floating over lands end being laughed at by them
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[15:56] <craag> M6SFC: Good to see another in the soton tracking contingent!
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[15:57] <M6SFC> Hi Craig.. Im a bit of a newby did get some tracking today
[15:58] <G4MYS-2> Hi All not aware of this one today... is thos threatend 0900 job fromn yestreday?
[15:59] <eroomde> yes
[15:59] <eroomde> threat is a strong word
[15:59] <eroomde> i don't think they were at risk of overworking an listeners :)
[15:59] <eroomde> any*
[15:59] <mfa298> I think there was an email late last night (or early this morning) saying planned launch today instead
[15:59] <mfa298> but not much notice
[16:00] <G4MYS-2> shame its gone titties up for them!
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[16:00] <eroomde> it sounds a lot like the problem is not so much bad luck as bad planning/design
[16:02] <G4MYS-2> At the same time I fancy doing some mobile tracking... and have been askingabout suitable tablets, need less to say lots of info and tablets being thrust at me with virus proofing software odd as they are Andrino tabelts... any thoughts as to which tablet?
[16:03] <mfa298> something you can get audio into if you want to decode rtty on the tablet (although I've used the speaker -> mic method a few times with decent results)
[16:03] <eroomde> mattbrejza i believe has written an android tablet decoding app
[16:04] <jonsowman> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.brejza.matt.habmodem
[16:06] <mfa298> something with a USB port / supporting USB-OTG potentially means you can use an sdr dongle on it as well although although that needs a slightly more powerful tablet than the one I've got.
[16:09] <G4MYS-2> Jonsowman many thanks! can you add to that a list of suggested tablets or am I asking too much!?
[16:09] <jonsowman> I can't
[16:09] <jonsowman> but I'm sure someone else can
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[16:10] <G4MYS-2> I can make a lead lads! and thanks you again Jonsowman for your help! Andy
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[16:19] <mattbrejza> G4MYS-2: cant guarantee itll work with all tablets/phones
[16:19] <mattbrejza> it works fine on my tablet but not on my phone
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[16:20] <mattbrejza> http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:hab_modem for cable details
[16:24] <aadamson> mattbrejza, did you ever build one of your new boards?
[16:25] <mattbrejza> you mean the max7 one?
[16:25] <mattbrejza> yea i have two made up
[16:27] <craag> Upu: GDP are happy to be removed/scrubbed/bleached from the map
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[16:28] <craag> btw mattbrejza I have a MAX7Q here with sarantel working ok indoors
[16:28] <craag> hovering about 6 satellites, dropping to 4 and peaking at 9
[16:30] <aadamson> mattbrejza, did you just do a new *pico* like board?
[16:30] <mattbrejza> well these boards have been hanging around since september or so, not sure if that counts as new
[16:31] <aadamson> ah, I probably have you confused with another... no worries... just curious.
[16:31] <aadamson> and yes I have to say my work with the Max7C once I replaced the chip I screwed up has been very positive
[16:31] <aadamson> and *I don't have my microstrip* correct on my board
[16:32] <mattbrejza> its like a 4mm trace, cant make that much difference unless you have it like 1mil wide
[16:33] <mattbrejza> i think i need to test the two modules away from anything else, i cant see how all my modules are statically screwed, i didnt even solder two of them
[16:33] <aadamson> a 4mm trace? I'd have to look at the calculator for the frequency, but that seems a little wide
[16:34] <aadamson> there are online calculators that will tell you for the board thickness, etc what the width and clearance needs to be for a 50ohm microstrip
[16:34] <mattbrejza> 4mm long
[16:34] <aadamson> ah, length isn't the real issue
[16:34] <aadamson> is width and clearance *and corners* that are main issue
[16:35] <mattbrejza> my point was that the wdith of the 'microstrip' isnt an issue when its 4mm long
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[16:35] <mattbrejza> http://i.imgur.com/P6jxu2Y.png
[16:35] <mattbrejza> dont think thats final mind you
[16:36] <aadamson> is there something connected to that 2x5 header?
[16:36] <aadamson> I've found nothing but problems with *anything* that is close to the gps chip
[16:36] <mattbrejza> nope
[16:36] <aadamson> hmm... dunno then
[16:36] <mattbrejza> isnt populated on one of them
[16:36] <mattbrejza> also most of my tseting was max6 breakout vs max7 breakout
[16:37] <aadamson> for what it's worth on one of my board, I removed the top attach point for the chip antenna.
[16:37] <aadamson> oh, and it probably begs the question...
[16:37] <mattbrejza> and it made any difference?
[16:38] <aadamson> had to look up the part number - you are using this antenna - http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/1575AT43A0040E/712-1003-1-ND/1560832
[16:38] <aadamson> I'm pretty sure it's the one that Anthony sells
[16:38] <aadamson> *but* there are some others that don't work very well
[16:38] <mattbrejza> it upu's one
[16:38] <LeoBodnar> [13:20] <LeoBodnar> microstrip can't be << wavelength, otherwise it is just a lumped component
[16:39] <aadamson> and yes removing that pad did seem to make some difference but that debugging was done at the same time I realized the original chip was damaged so it got changed then
[16:40] <aadamson> a full wavelength LeoBodnar? at 1575mhz what would be 190mm?
[16:41] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[16:41] <LeoBodnar> 5mm copper spot is not a microstrip at 1.6GHz
[16:41] <aadamson> ah... that I understand
[16:42] <aadamson> mine isn't 5mm, but it's not quite 190mm either :)
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[16:44] <LeoBodnar> just like 10cm coax run of wrong impedance between transmitter and antenna would not create mismatch condition at 20m band
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[16:47] <SpeedEvil> That doesn't mean it's not a microstrip/coax
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[16:50] <LeoBodnar> well it means that its lumped parameters overshadow distributed ones at that freqeuncy
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[16:50] <ibanezmatt13> found out that the landing site of our last flight was 200 yards from some secret airbase thing apparently. Given that Steve's landed near by, they might have been tracking it as it descended, explaining it being taken before he got there
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[16:53] <SpeedEvil> You can submit a freedom of information request for any tracking info
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[16:53] <LeoBodnar> since it has been discovered it is not secret anymore?!
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[16:55] <ibanezmatt13> haha
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[16:55] <ibanezmatt13> Not sure how true that is, was informed by my Dad speaking to a local there today :)
[16:56] <WillTablet> Hi
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[17:02] <jonathan-b> Working on constructing a 2.5~2.7kg payload balloon to launch this August in the States, first time builder/launcher. In my research, I have run into two barriers:
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[17:03] <jonathan-b> 1) specifics on how to attach a parachute and how it deploys after balloon burst. 2) what is the right radio transmitter board to buy in the US (Radiometrix is only sold out of UK/EU it seems). Any suggestions?
[17:03] <Willdude> jonathan-b, Upu ships to the US I think, maybe, possibly. Check
[17:03] <Reb-SM3ULC> LeoBodnar: what's new on your latest balloons?
[17:04] <jonathan-b> Willdude - Upu? link?
[17:04] <mfa298> jonathan-b: the radio regulations are slightly different in the states so the license free radio transmitters we use in the UK/EU may not be license free over there.
[17:05] <mfa298> if you've got a HAM license then there are lots of options available.
[17:05] <jonathan-b> 433-434mhz seems to be license free from what i can tell
[17:05] <craag> Upu does ship to the states no problem
[17:06] <jonathan-b> when i look at the FCC allocations table 433 still seems to be allocated for satellite/balloon location
[17:06] <craag> jonathan-b: http://ava.upuaut.net/store/
[17:06] <jonathan-b> ah, its the hab store. excellent
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[17:07] <jonathan-b> thank you
[17:07] <mfa298> if you're confident that it's allowed go for it, just don't assume it's allowed because we can use it in europe.
[17:08] <mfa298> you might also want to consider if the payload really needs to be 2.5kg. that's a lot of weight to lift (so more gas needed) and is potentially more of a risk coming down (bigger parachute needed and confident that it will be properly deployed)
[17:08] <jonathan-b> @mfa298 agreed. I have been searching for any regulations related, but haven't found any. and the current FCC allocation table shows it labeled for that purpose. Also, they sell small arduino RF transmitters at 433mhz (range 500ft)
[17:08] <SIbot> In real units: 500 ft = 152 m
[17:09] <Upu> jonathan-b are you in the States ?
[17:09] <jonathan-b> yes i am
[17:09] <jonathan-b> currently Boston area.
[17:09] <Upu> 433Mhz is technically licensed use only i.e you need a HAm license
[17:10] <jonathan-b> ohhh reallly
[17:10] <jonathan-b> oh no :(
[17:10] <Upu> technically
[17:10] <Upu> its a grey area
[17:10] <Upu> you can transmit sporadically for telemetry purposes but not continously
[17:10] <jonathan-b> do you know what "sporadically" means?
[17:10] <Upu> have fun defining it :)
[17:10] <jonathan-b> could i just burst every minute?
[17:10] <jonathan-b> lol
[17:11] <Upu> this is my understanding but I'd check with some fellow Americans who've used it
[17:11] <g0pai_ian> Find yourself a radio ham as part of the team or a club that will be the official operator
[17:11] <Upu> or just go get your HAM license
[17:11] <jonathan-b> is a HAM license obtainable in 3 months?
[17:11] <g0pai_ian> That's the better longer term solution
[17:11] <mfa298> from what other people have said look at getting the basic HAM license (technician?) and you can probably use that for airborne
[17:11] <jonathan-b> i looked at the reqs, its like a 35 question test, but the exam spots look questionable
[17:11] <jonathan-b> technician yeah
[17:12] <jonathan-b> this is my back up plan: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9411
[17:12] <mfa298> and much more power and it's appearently very easy to pass
[17:12] <jonathan-b> but not sure if it will work with dl-fldigi
[17:13] <Upu> not used those but generally x-bee's don't work so well
[17:13] <Upu> we reduce the data rate massively with our modules
[17:13] <craag> jonathan-b: It won't, and only up to 40 miles.
[17:14] <jonathan-b> well..40 miles is probably enough range. our estimated trajectories are 10miles up, 15-20 mile radius
[17:14] <craag> 'up to'
[17:14] <craag> with the balloon swaying around you probably won't get that.
[17:15] <jonathan-b> good to know
[17:15] <craag> Plus it makes it harder for others to help you track!
[17:16] <craag> Get your local ham radio club interested, and a few with 70cm ssb rigs might help out.
[17:16] <jonathan-b> so, basically stay away from xbee, get my ham technician and order one of the NTX2's from UPu
[17:16] <Upu> sounds like a plan
[17:16] <craag> That'd be my advice :)
[17:16] <Upu> in fairness I have to tell you that you can buy them in the States from Lemos
[17:16] <jonathan-b> good advice :)
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[17:16] <Upu> but mine are frequency agile
[17:16] <Upu> as we run custom firmware
[17:16] <eroomde> or go aprs
[17:16] <Upu> yeah or use APRS
[17:17] <Upu> or better still both at the same time
[17:17] <Upu> don't use the Adafruit Ultimate
[17:17] <Upu> caps out at 27km
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[17:17] <Upu> read the wiki
[17:17] <Upu> hang about on here
[17:17] <Upu> think thats it
[17:18] <jonathan-b> upu - thanks, ill compare you both and see whats best - thanks for honesty :)
[17:18] <jonathan-b> i bought the Adafruit Ultimate a few weeks back and it failed
[17:18] <jonathan-b> just couldnt get it to connect to the UART on the RPi at all
[17:19] <Upu> oh using a Pi ?
[17:19] <jonathan-b> well...its starting to seem like arduino is the safer route. plus you have docs on connecting the ntx2 to an arduino
[17:19] <jonathan-b> which makes me feel a little less like im feeling around in the dark
[17:19] <eroomde> that's the idea
[17:19] <Upu> well or a Pic if you are conversant
[17:20] <Upu> Pi has its benefits
[17:20] <Upu> but also a raft of draw backs
[17:20] <mfa298> if it's just telemetry then an arduino is probably the safer route (less to go wrong). but the pi brings the ability to add a camera and live pictures (which isn't so easy with an arduino/pic)
[17:20] <jonathan-b> Im worried about temperature affects on the Pi, and also the lack of serial ports (I would have the GPS and the Radio attached via serial)
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[17:21] <eroomde> tho possible with 1338 HaX0r skillz
[17:21] <Upu> jonathan-b firstly don't worry about the Pi
[17:21] <Upu> its very hardy
[17:21] <jonathan-b> no kidding
[17:21] <jonathan-b> *sigh of relief*
[17:21] <Upu> daveake stuck one up a teddy bears backside and threw it out at 38km
[17:21] <eroomde> suspect keeping pi's cool is the harder problem
[17:21] <Upu> serial ports yes this is an issue but connect the GPS to the serial
[17:21] <Upu> and use PWM for the radio
[17:21] <craag> or use bitbanged i2c for the GPS
[17:22] <jonathan-b> oh, SSB over the audio port?
[17:22] <daveake> yep all these work
[17:22] <Upu> or you can generate tones in software and play them via a GPIO to the radio
[17:22] <jonathan-b> =PWM?
[17:22] <Upu> but you need mad skillz to do that
[17:22] <Upu> like DJ Hodor on steriods
[17:22] <jonathan-b> hahaha
[17:22] <Upu> pulse width modulation
[17:22] <Upu> start simple
[17:22] <Upu> work up
[17:22] <jonathan-b> ok
[17:22] <jonathan-b> but that will still be over the audio port right?
[17:23] <jonathan-b> i'd be modulating and broadcasting over the audio port of the pi?
[17:23] <Upu> I think so
[17:23] <jonathan-b> to an external transmitter
[17:23] <Upu> I never progressed past simple
[17:23] <jonathan-b> ok, good advice.
[17:23] <jonathan-b> haha
[17:23] <jonathan-b> let me look into this a bit more.
[17:23] <eroomde> coolest thing about spaceport america are its trucks
[17:23] <eroomde> http://www.parabolicarc.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Spaceport_America_Firetrucks.jpg
[17:24] <Upu> I think those a very old as I had a toy one as a kid
[17:25] <jonathan-b> in the states we all have one of those
[17:25] <daveake> jonathan-b On the Pi you can redirect one channel of the audio to a GPIO pin. This then bypasses the DC block. You can then "play" 1's and 0's through the audio driver
[17:25] <jonathan-b> required vehicle for all citizens ;)
[17:25] <eroomde> looking like an amphibious assault craft?
[17:25] <daveake> I (and others) have done this by making a wav file containing the rtty stream, then simply playing it
[17:25] Action: Willdude photoshops an ofcom van in to the image
[17:26] <Willdude> Just to be original
[17:26] <jonathan-b> @daveake - any docs on redirecting the audio to the GPIO?
[17:26] <daveake> Other techniques may be more elegant :/
[17:26] <daveake> It's a one-liner, I'll find it
[17:26] <mfa298> there's some stuff on the wiki about pwm from the pi for generating rtty/dominoEX but it's a bit more complicated. If you're skill level isn't up to that yet I'd go for connecting the radio to serial and gps either sharing serial or using i2c
[17:26] <Willdude> Damn I lost the raw ofcom van file.
[17:27] <Willdude> Well, it'd be the FCC
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[17:27] <jonathan-b> @mfa298 - thats the stuff in the Advanced section right? I'll peruse again, but was worried it might be a little too complex for first time
[17:27] <Willdude> Is there such thing as a spaceborne radio license?
[17:27] <eroomde> Willdude: i believe amsat operate under NoVs
[17:27] <jonathan-b> I've never heard of that
[17:27] <mfa298> I probably ought to add some more detail to that I think it's behind where I got to in my experimentation
[17:28] <daveake> jonathan-b, As a first time, I'd share the serial port between radio and GPS
[17:28] <daveake> It's the simplest to get going
[17:28] <daveake> Also clunky but meh
[17:28] <mfa298> I think it's also possible to generate rtty using the rfm69 on spi from the pi but I've only done a very quick test of that.
[17:29] <daveake> The only technical downside is there's some downtime in the radio link (while the code reads the GPS), so you can't send so much
[17:30] <jonathan-b> ah, i've read about this - RX goes to GPS and TX goes to Radio
[17:31] <daveake> Tx also goes to GPS in the case of UBlox, so you can put it into flight mode (so it doesn't crap out at 12km)
[17:31] <jonathan-b> i dont need to be streaming the radio, it can be short bursts
[17:33] <jonathan-b> @daveake - if you Tx both radio and GPS, arent you going to end up sending junk across the radio everytime you send to the GPS
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[17:34] <mattbrejza> you only normally rx from the gps and tx to the radio
[17:34] <Willdude> eroomde, hmm
[17:35] <daveake> The Tx to the GPS happens on boot up, on the ground, so nobody cares
[17:35] <mattbrejza> also you can add a couple resistors to stop the gps getting data sent to the radio
[17:35] <Willdude> They have weird calls though, don't they?
[17:35] <jonathan-b> ah, its for doing a warm start or something eh
[17:35] <Willdude> I received Funcube telem the other day
[17:37] <jonathan-b> Alright everyone - thank you so much for the help today. I have to return to my dayjob :( I will return again tomorrow...
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[18:21] <SpeedEvil> https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/461199264345903104/photo/1 - now that's a cool pic.
[18:21] <SpeedEvil> (F9R stage near sea level, blowing waves. )
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[18:25] <kc2pit> About damn time they started releasing that imagery!
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> It's a real shame they haven't talked to us about it.
[18:25] <SpeedEvil> I mean - fsphil could do better.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> Or more seriously - a gopro, a SPOT, a foam ball, and you're pretty much done.
[18:26] <SpeedEvil> - something designed to survive a basically 'good' landing and pop off when it gets very wet
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[18:37] <myself> *you* pop off when you get...
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[19:07] <mikestir> anyone about who's familiar with the various airspace classes?
[19:07] <jarod> classes?
[19:07] <mikestir> as on the CAA maps
[19:07] <mikestir> X, A, D, E and G
[19:08] <jarod> ah, no idea
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[19:11] <f5vnf> mikestrir try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace_class
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[19:12] <f5vnf> mikestir ^
[19:13] <mikestir> just reading it thanks. trying to find a site near here that might get launch clearance
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[19:27] <LeoBodnar> i remember something mikestir
[19:29] <LeoBodnar> A, C, D, E are controlled
[19:29] <LeoBodnar> UK does not use class B if i remember right
[19:31] <LeoBodnar> Never heard of X
[19:31] <LeoBodnar> (or heard but forgot)
[19:31] <LeoBodnar> G is not a controlled arirspace
[19:32] <Reb-SM3ULC> LeoBodnar: was it planned for the 47 to go that high?
[19:32] <LeoBodnar> Oh, it has been answered, sorry mikestir
[19:32] <Reb-SM3ULC> b47 dashing NE at 150 km/h.
[19:33] <LeoBodnar> it's a custom made balloon
[19:34] <Reb-SM3ULC> ah
[19:35] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: how are you seaming them?
[19:36] <LeoBodnar> with a heat roller
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[19:37] <LeoBodnar> and lots of swearing
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[19:37] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:37] <craag> LeoBodnar: Any pics of the envelope?
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[19:43] <LeoBodnar> it's look no different to Qualatex
[19:43] <LeoBodnar> +s
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[19:47] <json34> Why b-47 is floating at 11k instead of 8k?
[19:47] <f5vnf> mikestir believe X is military
[19:48] <mikestir> LeoBodnar: in terms of getting the nod from DM, do you know which classes of airspace need to be avoided? I assume A is OK because it's only above FL195?
[19:49] <SpeedEvil> For balloons under 2m (including payload) at any time in flight, they are almost unregulated.
[19:49] <SpeedEvil> Almost - you can't launch more than 10000 per square kilometer per 15 minutes.
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[19:50] <LeoBodnar> A is airways
[19:50] <mikestir> SpeedEvil: I know, but this is for a normal latex flight
[19:50] <LeoBodnar> basically if you can stay away from any controlled airspace
[19:50] <LeoBodnar> it makes it simple then
[19:51] <LeoBodnar> most controlled airspace near ground level in UK is class C
[19:51] <mikestir> half the country is class A though, including the area we did the launch from last October
[19:51] <LeoBodnar> </needs confirming>
[19:51] <LeoBodnar> but it's above GL
[19:52] <mikestir> around here basically the whole of Merseyside and Greater Manchester is class D, so I'm kind of assuming if we look for somewhere slightly to the south we should be ok
[19:52] <mikestir> but that anywhere inside that class D area is going to be a definite no
[19:53] <LeoBodnar> well procedurally you need to talk to someone who has gone through getting a lot of NOTAMed flights
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[19:54] <LeoBodnar> i am sure if it's not busy you'll be able to but it will be more difficult
[19:55] <mikestir> oh it's busy!
[19:57] <LeoBodnar> well if you have a choice, starting from a position that is not controlled airspace at the ground level and not under a terminal area is a good start
[19:58] <amell> anyone tried this for hab? http://www.hoperf.com/rf/data_link_module/HM-TRLR-S.htm - claims to do 115.2K over 5km
[19:58] <mikestir> yeah that sounds reasonable. They already tried to get clearance to launch from the school field last October and I think DM just laughed
[19:58] <mikestir> it's almost on final approach for Liverpool
[19:59] <amell> Who is DM? Fat Controller?
[20:00] <Upu> Sir David Miller
[20:00] <Upu> Lord of Issuing NOTAMS 2 mins before you need them
[20:02] <amell> Yeah, Airspace Specialist 5.
[20:03] <amell> " Issue of balloon/kite permissions and exemptions.
[20:03] <amell> " Meteorological and research balloons policy.
[20:03] <amell> " Providing specialist advice on ATC aspects of captive
[20:03] <amell> balloon and kite flying.
[20:03] <amell> " Secretary to AS Standards meetings
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[20:03] <amell> " Secretary to NATMAC AIMWG NOTAM Review Group
[20:04] <amell> Seems he is military, and all his dept are military.
[20:09] <mattbrejza> farnell dont sell any p channel to92 mosfets :/
[20:12] <MatB> mikestir: skydemonlight.com might be useful for showing controlled airspace
[20:12] <mikestir> MatB: I found an overlay for google earth
[20:13] <mikestir> skydemonlight might be useful, but it needs silverlight so I'll never know :)
[20:14] <MatB> yeah, it's really good when it works and really annoying when it doesn't because of that. I'm on a Mac right now and it doesn't....
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[20:16] <LeoBodnar> is TO92 even live still?
[20:16] <LeoBodnar> MOSFETs or J-FETs?
[20:16] <mattbrejza> there are still reasons for through hole
[20:16] <mattbrejza> mosfet
[20:16] <mattbrejza> or anything that will turn on nice and happily
[20:16] <mattbrejza> could use a pnp bjt
[20:17] <LeoBodnar> BJT ftw
[20:17] <mattbrejza> also low Ron to92 p channel isnt a good combination
[20:17] <LeoBodnar> if you don't need to save nAmps
[20:17] <mattbrejza> mostly care about low Ron
[20:18] <mattbrejza> life is too short to care about the nAmps
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[20:18] <LeoBodnar> if low Ron use N-ch
[20:19] <mattbrejza> cba to produce a gate bias
[20:19] <LeoBodnar> is it power control of some sort?
[20:19] <mattbrejza> its just to switch some LEDs :P
[20:19] <mattbrejza> but the issue with a high Ron is they vary brightness if some turn off
[20:19] <LeoBodnar> can you switch retrun current?
[20:19] <LeoBodnar> GND path
[20:20] <mattbrejza> im saving on pins by having them in reverse parallel
[20:20] <mfa298> amell: we've used similar modules but usually ones we can persaud to do rtty at a sensible rate one. most of those devices will claim up to x data rate and up to y distance. You may not be able to get full data rate at full distance, especially as once it's airborne the legal power limit is generally reduced (or you get annoying duty cycle limits - 1% in some cases)
[20:20] <mattbrejza> mikestir: http://i.imgur.com/7JfZDep.png i reckon unshaded areas should be fine
[20:21] <mikestir> mattbrejza: yeah that's what I ended up with
[20:21] <amell> mfa298: thanks. looking for something to track rockets.
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[20:23] <MatB> mikestir: My chart only goes up to 5000' ish and stops North of Manchester but to the south the Manchester CTA (2500'-3500') Class D finishes around Crewe. Above that you've got the Manchester TMA Class A. South of Crewe its the Daventry TMA at 4500' climbing to 5500'. Basically you're stuffed wherever, so suggest you give Manchester ATC a call for advice.
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[20:26] <mikestir> MatB: last launch we did from Welshpool, which is miles away hence the desire to find somewhere nearer. That lies within class A controlled airspace though according to this GE overlay
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[20:30] <mikestir> interesting class X "restricted" airspace
[20:31] <MatB> I was about to suggest somewhere along the Manchester Low Level Route as that'll be see and avoid VFR. http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/299/Manchester%20Low%20Level%20Route_2008NOV_CAA.pdf But of course that doesn't work for a balloon ascending above the lane :)
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[20:34] <mattbrejza> is the reason for using mosfets for driving load as high power bjts have low gain and so need 'massive' base current?
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[20:38] <mikestir> also non-negligible VCEsat
[20:39] <mikestir> so even with loads of base current they could still dissipate quite a bit of power
[20:39] <Laurenceb_> i wonder if B-47 has reached the required altitude for indefinite flight duration
[20:39] <mattbrejza> well mosfets have Ron
[20:39] <Laurenceb_> research octane number
[20:39] <mattbrejza> although for this having a constant Vce rather than constant resistance is better
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[20:42] <myself> hey, Ron's a buddy of mine..
[20:42] <mattbrejza> need latex math bot
[20:43] <mattbrejza> $R_{on}$
[20:43] <myself> latex bot? kinky..
[20:43] <LeoBodnar> BJT still have place
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[20:44] <LeoBodnar> their parameters dispersion is tighter,
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> higher voltages, etc
[20:45] <mattbrejza> i was thinking of the load switching case
[20:45] <mattbrejza> guess it all comes down to efficiency
[20:45] <mattbrejza> ignoring frequency related stuff
[20:46] <LeoBodnar> load power loss efficiency?
[20:46] <mattbrejza> heating of the transistor
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> you can get 5m© Rdson
[20:47] <mattbrejza> whats a low Vcesat?
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[20:48] <mikestir> what's your current and voltage?
[20:48] <mattbrejza> low and low
[20:48] <LeoBodnar> saturation voltage between emitter and collector
[20:48] <mattbrejza> like 5V 100mA
[20:48] <mattbrejza> just gonna use a bjt
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[20:54] <SkippyUK> random electronics question - is there any problems with radio interferance (80 MHz to 2.7GHz) in excess of class B CE assocated with balloning?
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[20:55] <mikestir> Vcesat for a BC559 is about 200mV at 100mA = 20mW lost. I guess a higher power device will be worse. Even a rubbish mosfet with Rdson of 1 ohm is going to dissipate half that and be easier to drive.
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[20:57] <mattbrejza> this is one application where a constant Vce is better than a varying one in the case of a mosfet and a Ron instead
[20:57] <mattbrejza> also p chan to92 FETs are shit
[20:57] <nats`> a FET easier to drive than a BJT ?
[20:57] <nats`> seriously ?
[20:57] <mikestir> as a load switch sure
[20:58] <mikestir> a mosfet, not a jfet
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[22:27] <SilverIV7> Evening all, got my hab tracking circuit provisionally working today, what do you think? https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1.0-9/q79/s480x480/10268599_10152302350031195_6823659887001895975_n.jpg
[22:32] <malclocke> SilverIV7, well done :)
[22:32] <WillTablet> Well done
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[22:41] <SilverIV7> Thanks, you guys helped a lot
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[23:02] <WillTablet> There are so few interesting blogs I'm almost reading UK.radio.amateur
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[23:03] <SilverIV7> What defines interesting blog?
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[23:09] <SilverIV7> Anyone have a tutorial on setting up srb with the Realtek RTL2832U USB Stick, I can't seem to get it working
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[23:26] <g0pai_ian> SRB?
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[23:28] <g0pai_ian> SDR perhaps? I use Linux and have set up GQRX although it's probably a bit basic as a front end as it has a limited number of endearing features when it comes to the bit.
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[00:00] --- Wed Apr 30 2014