highaltitude.log.20140423

[00:06] <DL7AD> amell: no theres no aprs :/
[00:14] <amell> next stop canada then? :)
[00:15] <DL7AD> amell: rofl..... norway rather canada
[00:16] <DL7AD> but would be great too
[00:16] <DL7AD> omg..... greenland is actually green! :P http://puu.sh/8jAkd/f0a6522004.jpg
[00:19] <amell> it used to be white. Global warming
[00:19] <amell> let us hope B-46 does not pass over Thule.
[00:23] <amell> not much backlog telemetry came through
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[01:24] <ulfr> hm
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[01:25] <ulfr> Still getting position it seems from B-46
[01:27] <ulfr> or not
[01:31] <ulfr> Of course I had to jinx it...
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[03:47] <arko> is W7BNW here?
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[06:38] <Chetic> where is the 50 baud rtty sample audio file on the wiki?
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[06:38] <Chetic> I just can't find it
[06:39] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide
[06:39] <Upu> search for Icarus
[06:39] <Upu> on that page
[06:40] <Chetic> thanks!
[06:41] <arko> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide:spanish
[06:41] <arko> ooops
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[08:13] <Jededu> Any idea why my PiCam stops taking images after 7 Hours
[08:13] <mfa298> what are you using to take images ?
[08:13] <mfa298> has the SD card filled up ?
[08:13] <x-f> any error message?
[08:14] <Jededu> No I have 24gb left no errors tracking software keeps running I am using PiCamera
[08:15] <Jededu> 1024x768 3 tests it always stops at about 7 hours
[08:15] <mfa298> do you mean the python picamera library ?
[08:15] <Jededu> Yes
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[08:15] <x-f> what if you manually run raspistill after the camera has stopped?
[08:16] <mfa298> I've seen odd issues where it seemes to stop responding but I've not done a lot of investigation yet
[08:16] <mfa298> back in a bit
[08:16] <Jededu> rapstill works I can start my script again and off it goes
[08:17] <x-f> you sure it's not something in your code then?
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[08:19] <Jededu> Dont think so they run together for untill the cam stops then code continues np
[08:20] <Jededu> I have just set it to reboot after 4 hours would like to sort the problem tho
[08:20] <LeoBodnar> ulfr: thanks for your help yesterday!
[08:22] <DL7AD> morning!
[08:25] <craag> habmap now sorts B-46 data by gps_time to fix logged path :)
[08:29] <malgar> I just realized the 1/4 wave antenna for the payload. The ukhas tutorial says that it has to be 168 mm long. But it is 1/4 wave for 446 MHz, and not 434 MHz. Why?
[08:30] <malgar> *164 mm
[08:31] <malgar> the right one should be 172 mm
[08:31] <craag> malgar: The velocity factor for a wire in free space is 0.95
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[08:31] <craag> So the RF travels slower in a wire, than it would in a vacuum
[08:31] <craag> Hence the wavelength is shorter in a wire
[08:31] <gonzo_> you need to take into account the 95% velocity factor of the metal
[08:32] <malgar> oh!
[08:32] <gonzo_> snap
[08:32] <malgar> it is enough to do 172 * 0.95?
[08:32] <gonzo_> yep
[08:32] <craag> malgar: = 164 :)
[08:32] <malgar> :)
[08:33] <gonzo_> though even if it were not cut very accuratly, it would hardly make much difference
[08:33] <craag> As accurate as possible is good practice though
[08:33] <gonzo_> 2:1 mismatch is only 11% reflected power
[08:34] <gonzo_> and in rf engineering, 10dB return is considered a good match
[08:34] <malgar> other question... the ground plane wires are 350 mm long. Isn't this lenght very important? the tutorial says *about* 350 mm
[08:35] <gonzo_> just bending the ground plane wires will change the match
[08:35] <craag> malgar: Normal practice is to have each of the 4 ground wires as long as the radiating element
[08:35] <craag> But that's not critical
[08:35] <gonzo_> gp wires ideally should be over a 1/ 4wave
[08:35] <malgar> ok
[08:36] <craag> Longer is better if you have the space, but you don't gain much once they're over a 1/4 wave long.
[08:36] <gonzo_> 4 x 1/4 wires is pretty much optimal. Above that it makes little difference
[08:36] <craag> snap :)
[08:37] <craag> morning gonzo_ btw
[08:37] <craag> How are you?
[08:37] <gonzo_> if you use less the match will probably be fine, but you may start getting lobes/nulls in the pattern. MWhich causes fading when it slowly rotates/swings
[08:37] <gonzo_> morning
[08:37] <gonzo_> not bad ta.
[08:37] <malgar> other question: I'll start testing soon. During the flight it will be downward. But if I want to do ground testing should I turn it by 90° in the direction of the receiving antenna?
[08:38] <gonzo_> btw, does the souton club do VHF NFD?
[08:38] <malgar> thank you a lot! I'm learining so much :)
[08:38] <craag> malgar: No, it radiates sideways when pointing downwards
[08:38] <malgar> ok
[08:38] <gonzo_> testing, you will probably be that close, it will not matter
[08:39] <gonzo_> but the stringest signals will be when the rx and TX antenna are parallel
[08:39] <craag> Yeah... make sure to do a range test before launch, as even if your antenna is broken, it'll still work fine up to about 50 metres away.
[08:39] <malgar> I can have a good range because I can go on the top of a mountain
[08:39] <craag> :)
[08:39] <craag> gonzo_: Yes, we do VHF NFD with the Basingstoke Club
[08:40] <malgar> ok: 1/4 wave is done. This afternoon I'll start the yagi ;)
[08:40] <gonzo_> recon we will heard you then! We are at cern abbas along with bracknell club
[08:40] <craag> They provide site, masts, antennas, radios, we provide tents and keen tireless young operators :)
[08:41] <craag> gonzo_: What callsign?
[08:41] <gonzo_> g4rfr (2/4/23) and g4bra (6/70)
[08:42] <malgar> sometimes in yagi tutorials they suggest a balun. Is it really important? If it isn't, I'll avoid it.
[08:42] <craag> I remember working BRA on 6/70
[08:42] <Kodar> $$OSIRIS02,284,22,3062,-98,0,0,No uplink received yet,4080*07CE
[08:42] <malgar> for HAB tracking I mean :)
[08:42] <Kodar> 432.700 rtty 50/500/7
[08:43] <craag> malgar: Not really for RX I've found.
[08:43] <Darkside> Kodar: oh nice
[08:43] <Darkside> its launchd
[08:43] <malgar> and please LeoBodnar send here a balloon so I can test my yagi :P
[08:43] <malgar> :D
[08:44] <Kodar> http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=11&call=a%2F9A14SB-4&others=1&timerange=3600&tail=3600
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[08:44] <gonzo_> malgar, when you have your payload transmitting correctly (even just a carrier) it's useful to try your RX with a small antenna, or even no antenna. And see how far away you can still hear your balloon. I have a handheld scanner which I use on FM with no antenna connected. I know that I can get about 10ft away before the signal gets weak. So I can use that as a confidence check on site right before launch
[08:44] <SIbot> In real units: 10 ft = 3.05 m
[08:45] <craag> gonzo_: I remember a few hours of hearing no-one but BRA crashing in on 70cm! We work as G3KMI on all bands.
[08:46] <malgar> LOL :D hank you SIbot
[08:46] <malgar> thank
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[08:47] <gonzo_> not doing the final sanity check on the signalss and launching before getting a gps lock, has probably claimed more hab fails than anything. (CH didn'r seem to mention that!)
[08:48] <gonzo_> I rarely operate radio. Prob do an hour on 2mtrs when the rest of them want to go to the pub for food
[08:48] <gonzo_> that's about all I do inb a year
[08:48] <eroomde> raaaar adamgreig pyvenv-3.4 (bundled) has a bug that means it doesn't install pip
[08:48] <eroomde> face-palm to the max
[08:49] <jonsowman> yeah i saw that eroomde
[08:49] <eroomde> pissing me off
[08:49] <jonsowman> kinda bad
[08:49] <malgar> x-f: you there?
[08:49] <jonsowman> it was meant to bundle ensurepip
[08:49] <jonsowman> but it didn't make it in time or something?
[08:49] <craag> Yeah I don't do much operating normally, but really enjoyed working 70cm last year, especially when (after 26 minutes of struggling) we got a guy in the pyrenees with just our 5W :)
[08:49] <eroomde> dunno
[08:50] <jonsowman> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/python3.4/+bug/1290847
[08:50] <jonsowman> anyway yeah, annoying
[08:50] <Darkside> Kodar: whats the most recent number
[08:50] <Darkside> i mean, the most recent sentenc
[08:51] <jonsowman> eroomde: install python3-pip to fix
[08:51] <jonsowman> sorry if you'd already worked that out
[08:51] <jonsowman> oh actually
[08:51] <eroomde> no i have
[08:51] <eroomde> but it doesn't work
[08:51] <jonsowman> maybe that doesn't fix virtualenv
[08:51] <jonsowman> sigh
[08:51] <eroomde> yeah
[08:51] <eroomde> python3-pip was the first thing i installed
[08:52] <eroomde> as i'm not bothering with 2 unless forced by circumstances
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[08:53] <Kodar> dont ask me anything, I dont know
[08:53] <Kodar> :)
[08:53] <Kodar> Im just lurker-monitor :)
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[08:54] <Darkside> Kodar: just paste me in the latest string
[08:55] <Darkside> and ill figure it out
[08:55] <Kodar> $$OSIRIS02,327,4,2963,-99,0,0,No uplink received yet,3250*83CE
[08:55] <Darkside> chers
[08:59] <Darkside> http://mod.carnet.hr/index.php?q=watch&id=3404
[08:59] <Darkside> live video from the balloon
[09:00] <Darkside> via wifi
[09:00] <Darkside> !
[09:00] <DL7AD> 100000ft
[09:00] <SIbot> In real units: 100000 ft = 30 km
[09:00] <DL7AD> 1000000ft
[09:00] <SIbot> In real units: 1000000 ft = 305 km
[09:00] <craag> Darkside: Impressive!
[09:01] <craag> Not dropping out at all..
[09:01] <Darkside> theres a 3m dish on th ground apparently
[09:01] <craag> Ah ok..
[09:02] <Darkside> oh, 1.5m
[09:02] <craag> Hmm, do you know what antenna they've got on the payload end?
[09:02] <Darkside> asking
[09:03] <craag> thanks :)
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[09:05] <mfa298> Jededu: that sounds different to how my stuff fails with the python module. even restarting the script doesn't fix it for me (although I suspect it might be some other issue in my case as it's saving to nfs)
[09:06] <Darkside> craag: cloverleaf apparntly
[09:06] <craag> 29dB gain, 5 degree 3dB beamwidth at 2.4GHz for 1.5 dish
[09:07] Action: craag googles..
[09:07] <craag> Ah, aka big wheel, yes that makes sense, thanks Darkside !
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[09:11] <fsphil> that is impressive
[09:12] <fsphil> is it falling?
[09:12] <fsphil> no, just turbulant
[09:12] <fsphil> ent
[09:13] <fsphil> not streaming too well
[09:14] <LeoBodnar> did i just see a plane?
[09:14] <fsphil> the moon is near the horizon
[09:15] <craag> Pointing the dish accurately is critical with this, but being an academic institution I'd hope they'd have over-engineered that :)
[09:15] <fsphil> hah
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[09:15] <fsphil> still very impressive
[09:15] <fsphil> even with the long pauses
[09:15] <fsphil> they're doing better than 300 baud ssdv :)
[09:15] <craag> Yeah, was silky smooth a few minutes ago!
[09:16] <daveake_> what's this?
[09:16] <fsphil> wifi video stream from a hab
[09:16] <fsphil> http://mod.carnet.hr/index.php?q=watch&id=3404
[09:16] <daveake_> cool taa
[09:16] <fsphil> they beat me to it :)
[09:16] <daveake_> :)
[09:17] <daveake_> or :(
[09:17] <gonzo_> looks like analogue tx
[09:17] <Darkside> one of my cutdown boards is about 10m above that camera
[09:17] <Darkside> gonzo_: its wifi
[09:18] <fsphil> from the lens flare it looks like a Pi
[09:18] <gonzo_> ok. Didn't see it going blocky with lost data, but wifi would just drop
[09:19] <Darkside> i would xpect it to be a pi cam
[09:19] <Darkside> now i'm thinking about how i can do this here >_>
[09:19] <Darkside> ideally using a gopro as a camera
[09:19] <fsphil> wonder what tx power they're using
[09:20] <fsphil> when I did a rough calculation I got about 5km max
[09:20] <fsphil> 10km with a 1m dish
[09:20] <LeoBodnar> "for the first time in the so-called Balloon Community"" fuck off
[09:21] <nats`> ?
[09:21] <Darkside> yeah thats wrong
[09:21] <fsphil> on a plus they're not using atmospheric pressure and a dodgey calculation to work out altitude
[09:21] <Darkside> its not the first time
[09:21] <Darkside> its been done in the US
[09:21] <Darkside> and i dunno who the hell wrote that
[09:22] <LeoBodnar> it's just plain arrogance
[09:22] <Darkside> yeah
[09:22] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: i've alrady had words with the guy about it
[09:22] <gonzo_> you are mafia!
[09:23] <Darkside> because that statement is crap
[09:23] <Darkside> might be the first time in in europe
[09:23] <Darkside> but definitely not the first time its been done
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[09:30] <LazyLeopard> I think it's been done (using analogue TV, anyway) in the UK before now, 'cos some details came up in chats I've had with folk who belong to BATC...
[09:31] <x-f> eh, Babs' stabilotron would be very appreciated on this kinda flight :)
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[09:32] <LazyLeopard> ...but got the impression it was quite some time ago.
[09:32] <Herman-PB0AHX> GM all
[09:32] <Herman-PB0AHX> wat is frequentie of 9A14SB-4 ??
[09:33] <x-f> <Kodar> 432.700 rtty 50/500/7
[09:33] <Darkside> its APRS
[09:33] <Herman-PB0AHX> oly aprs ?
[09:33] <Darkside> that RTTY frequency does not have position
[09:33] <Darkside> its only downlink telmetry for the cutdown payload
[09:33] <Herman-PB0AHX> Darkside: mni tnx info
[09:33] <Darkside> np 73
[09:33] <Darkside> om
[09:34] <Darkside> hihi
[09:34] <Darkside> (etc)
[09:34] <Herman-PB0AHX> i need rtty signals here hihihi fun
[09:34] <Darkside> decode it :-)
[09:34] <Darkside> and paste me a string in here
[09:34] <Darkside> i can tell when the cutdown is going to fire from it
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[09:36] <Herman-PB0AHX> if there is no ballon trakking than in do satelliete
[09:36] <Jededu> Darkside pm
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[09:38] <Darkside> Kodar: got a sentence?
[09:40] <fsphil> burst
[09:40] <Darkside> burst
[09:40] <fsphil> saw the chute
[09:40] <fsphil> nice
[09:40] <Darkside> yeah
[09:41] <fsphil> bit of a green haze - hope they took the protective cover of the lens
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[09:44] <Kodar> $$OSIRIS02,475,-2,2873,-94,0,0,No uplink received yet,413*4E1D
[09:44] <Darkside> heh
[09:44] <Darkside> bit late now
[09:44] <Darkside> its already burst :-)
[09:45] <Kodar> Im not here all the time
[09:47] <Darkside> no probs
[09:52] <Kodar> C
[09:52] <Kodar> Z}UTDOWN TIMER ZERO - FIRING CUTDOWNDone. Batt dropped to 2832
[09:52] <Kodar> $$$$$$OSIRIS02,497,-6,2838,-93,0,0,No uplink received yet,0*78CF
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[09:52] <mfa298> reading the blurb on the page I wonder if what they're trying to claim as a first is live HD quality video rather than just live video.
[09:53] <mfa298> not that I'd call that HD quality.
[09:55] <Darkside> well not on that wbesite
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[09:58] <ulfr> LeoBodnar: You're most welcome! :)
[09:58] <ulfr> LeoBodnar: Did you get any of that telemetry data that you were looking for?
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[10:01] <eroomde> jonsowman / adamgreig https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7604177
[10:01] <eroomde> missed that first time round but hopefully help is on the way
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[10:05] <jonsowman> eroomde: oh cool
[10:05] <LeoBodnar> ulfr: yes, i got about 60% of missing data for the flight between Ireland and Island http://spacenear.us/tracker/?filter=B-46
[10:05] <jonsowman> i did see that but a long time ago, much more stuff on there now
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[10:07] <ulfr> LeoBodnar: cool!
[10:07] <ulfr> I'm trying to get hams in the north to listen for it's telemetry.
[10:10] <LeoBodnar> oh cool!
[10:10] <fsphil> north of the wall
[10:10] <LeoBodnar> here is predicion: http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypubout/159408_trj001.gif
[10:10] <LeoBodnar> and pretty one http://ready.arl.noaa.gov/hypub/arlTraj.swf?client=gme-noaa&channel=OAR.ARL.HQ.HYSPLIT&dir=/hypubout/HYSPLITtraj_159408&data=/hysplit_metadata&ext=html
[10:13] <ulfr> cool
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[10:47] <Ugi> Hi Guys - any flights in prospect this weekend? Just got an antenna on the roof & keen to see if it's any good. Couldn't see anything on the google group.
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[10:49] <eroomde> suspect if you stand still long enough, one will come up to you
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[11:25] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar: leo?
[11:26] <DL7AD> next time i wanna see photos of greenland.....
[11:26] <DL7AD> :D
[11:30] <Reb-SM3ULC> Leo.. towards world domination.. :)
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[11:34] <ulfr> hehe
[11:37] <LeoBodnar> let me dominate my desk first
[11:37] <LeoBodnar> at the monet it's the other way round
[11:37] <LeoBodnar> moment
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[11:42] <Laurenceb> anyone here used subfigures in latex?
[11:43] <Laurenceb> i can't make them work :-/
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[11:51] <adamgreig> Laurenceb: yea
[11:51] <adamgreig> what's going wrong?
[11:52] <Laurenceb> its saying it cant find the gfile
[11:52] <Laurenceb> *file
[11:52] <Laurenceb> ! LaTeX Error: File `/XLStrail/v3cdoppler.epsc' not found.
[11:52] <Laurenceb> yet the file clearly is there
[11:53] <adamgreig> uhm. well that's weird. is it because of the leading slash?
[11:53] <Laurenceb> maybe im not using subfigures correctly...
[11:53] <adamgreig> this doesn't look like a subfigures problem
[11:53] <Laurenceb> it fails completely without that
[11:53] <adamgreig> got a snippet?
[11:53] <Laurenceb> im not sure im actually using subfigures...
[11:53] <adamgreig> lol
[11:54] <adamgreig> I take it v3cdoppler.epsc is your own file?
[11:54] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:54] <adamgreig> not seen epsc before
[11:54] <adamgreig> shouldn't you just put v3csoppler? you don't normally put the file extension in
[11:54] <Laurenceb> http://pastie.org/9104276
[11:54] <Laurenceb> hmm
[11:54] <ulfr> LeoBodnar: What kind of APRS transmitter is M0XER-6 equipped with?
[11:54] <adamgreig> is the ifle actually at /CLStrail/v3...
[11:54] <adamgreig> or like /home/Laurence/whatever/thing/XLStrial/...?
[11:55] <Laurenceb> the second
[11:55] <adamgreig> right
[11:55] <adamgreig> so it defo won't find it with a leading slash
[11:55] <adamgreig> I'd remove the / at the start and remove the .epsc at the end
[11:55] <Laurenceb> ok
[11:55] <adamgreig> and then i'd double check that epsc is an ok file extension for latex rather than just eps?
[11:55] <Laurenceb> epsc is ok
[11:55] <adamgreig> ok
[11:56] <Reb-SM3ULC> Laurenceb: yepp, a lot, 10 years ago, got a more grey hair with subfigs
[11:57] <adamgreig> lol
[11:57] <Laurenceb> brb
[11:57] <Reb-SM3ULC> Laurenceb: try google, latex images
[11:57] <adamgreig> for what it's worth
[11:57] <adamgreig> i'd use subfloat now
[11:57] <adamgreig> subfigure and subfig are both old and deprecated
[11:58] <adamgreig> see http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/144782/subfigure-and-subfig-packages-deprecated
[11:58] <adamgreig> though, well, that suggests subfig is still alright, which is what i used last time i did this
[11:58] <adamgreig> subfigure is defo old and gross tho
[12:00] <Laurenceb> argggg
[12:00] <Laurenceb> fixed it
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[12:00] <Laurenceb> i did search and replace, trail/trial
[12:01] <adamgreig> lol
[12:01] <adamgreig> oops
[12:01] <adamgreig> did it work with the leading slash and file extension then?
[12:02] <Laurenceb> yes
[12:02] <adamgreig> curious
[12:02] <adamgreig> ok
[12:02] <adamgreig> well. lol
[12:02] <adamgreig> you should probably check out subfig or subfloat anyway :P
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[12:06] <Jededu> ping upuwork
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[12:08] <Jededu> Are notam apps normally sent to dm via email of fax
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[12:10] <UpuWork> email
[12:10] <UpuWork> hi Jededu
[12:10] <Jededu> upuwork pw
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[12:56] <aadamson> woo hoo, I've got my sleep current down to about 5uA's, core still running out of flash, ram still lit, etc... now if I can figure out how the RTC works without an external crystal, I should be able to go down to nA's :)
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[12:58] <eroomde> so your current consumption could double from condensation
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[12:59] <aadamson> :) yeah, anything is possible
[13:00] <aadamson> but with a 2 cell setup on the pv controller only providing 22mA's I want to get this as small as possible so that when it's sleeping, the battery can charge
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[13:01] <aadamson> the problem with pv cells of any ilk, no moisture protection there either
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[13:30] <Laurenceb> you need starlight PV next
[13:32] <aadamson> Laurenceb, yeah, no kidding, when/if that every happens, I'll be it will be *expensive*... no wonder this pv stuff isn't used more, it's so darn inefficient... but then I guess we knew that already
[13:33] <aadamson> personally, I just want a small fuel cell and be done with it
[13:35] <gonzo_> would a thin layer of conformal coating do anythiung to the efficiency of the pv?
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[13:36] <eroomde> gonzo_: probably not. I understand that all these thin fragile pv cells are designed to be glued to a substrate and laquered over
[13:39] <Laurenceb> we need some sort of low power long range comms
[13:39] <gonzo_> it's pretty inert stuff. Though have seen reports of it causing detuning effects when getting into ceramic resonators (open filters etc, not encapsulated xtal types0
[13:39] <gonzo_> )
[13:39] <Laurenceb> ouija board or something?
[13:40] <gonzo_> is LPD mfsk modes not low power and long distance enough?
[13:41] <gonzo_> ouija boards are your more effectivly during PC programming
[13:41] <gonzo_> used
[13:41] <eroomde> Laurenceb: i'm sure just the right thing on HF would do it
[13:41] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:41] <eroomde> a slow thor or something
[13:41] <eroomde> we can fly optimal dipoles
[13:41] <Laurenceb> or WSPR
[13:41] <Laurenceb> dunno about that
[13:41] <gonzo_> yopu are relying on propegation?
[13:42] <eroomde> not within the 2m limit
[13:42] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:42] <eroomde> but ignoring that
[13:42] <Laurenceb> lol
[13:42] <Laurenceb> a 1.5m long 10m band antenna looked pretty doable
[13:42] <gonzo_> the noise on hf would be very restrictive
[13:43] <gonzo_> not very reliable prop on 10mtrs though
[13:43] <gonzo_> fly hab repeaters
[13:44] <Laurenceb> we need OSCAR uplink
[13:44] <Laurenceb> but not many sats around now :-/
[13:44] <Darkside> could transmit on a transponder uplink frequency
[13:45] <mattbrejza> did someone try using the iss as a aprs repeater?
[13:45] <Darkside> thers quite a few transpondr LEO's around th place
[13:45] <gonzo_> ask .mil if we can borrow some of their skynet/ufp transponders
[13:45] <Darkside> mattbrejza: transpodner sat would be better
[13:45] <Darkside> kind of
[13:45] <Darkside> you'd need to track 2x doppler
[13:46] <mattbrejza> cant F
[13:46] <mattbrejza> cant FM cope?
[13:46] <Darkside> you dont put FM through a transponder sat
[13:46] <mattbrejza> aprs iss?
[13:46] <Darkside> takes up all the power of the transponder
[13:46] <Darkside> oh, sure
[13:46] <Darkside> ISS APRS handles doppler fine
[13:46] <Darkside> but requires way more signal
[13:46] <Darkside> remember, you're competing against the italians
[13:46] <mattbrejza> are there any transponder sats that one can just use?
[13:47] <Darkside> mattbrejza: many
[13:47] <Darkside> more transponder sats than FM repeater sats now
[13:47] <gonzo_> it's called piracy
[13:47] <Darkside> mattbrejza: im talking about amateur radio LEO transponder sats
[13:47] <gonzo_> the brazilians and portugese do it all the time on the milsats
[13:47] <Darkside> Funcube-1 is the newest i think
[13:47] <mattbrejza> thought that might be thecase
[13:47] <Darkside> and theres a few others
[13:48] <Darkside> so you transmit in the middle of the transponder bandwidth, and just listen on the downlink
[13:48] <gonzo_> outside of the UK, there is probably no reason why habs can;'t use the amateur satellite service allocations
[13:48] <mattbrejza> and hope no-one else is tx'ing at the same time
[13:49] <Laurenceb> interesting
[13:49] <Darkside> mattbrejza: the point of the transponder is theres 50KHz of bandwidth to play qwith
[13:49] <mattbrejza> oh right
[13:49] <Darkside> and hams operat SSB through it
[13:49] <Darkside> generally using constant power modes through a transponder is frowned upon
[13:49] <Darkside> like, FM
[13:49] <Darkside> but eh, its a HAB
[13:49] <Darkside> im sure people won't mind >_>
[13:50] <gonzo_> the amateur sats don't usual;lu have the greatest antennas, so you would need to have a bit more than 10mw
[13:50] <gonzo_> rtty is fm
[13:50] <Darkside> gonzo_: yes exactly
[13:50] <Darkside> it means less power to other users
[13:50] <Darkside> with SSB, at least it kind of 'averags' out
[13:50] <mattbrejza> does it have channels within the 50kHz that you have to hit, and it then retransmits a channel when it detects enough rx power on that channel
[13:51] <Darkside> mattbrejza: no, its a transponder, 50KHz block in on 2m, 50khz block out on 70cm
[13:51] <Darkside> or vice versa
[13:51] <Darkside> linear
[13:51] <mattbrejza> with squeltch?
[13:51] <Darkside> nah
[13:51] <mattbrejza> or always on?
[13:51] <Darkside> always on
[13:51] <gonzo_> nope
[13:51] <mattbrejza> so its mostly a white noise generator?
[13:51] <Darkside> mattbrejza: im sure there'd be some AGC limits
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[13:52] <gonzo_> on, depending on how the bird is configured.
[13:52] <gonzo_> eg, FC1 is telem only in day
[13:53] <gonzo_> hearing the transponder noise floor is the aim of a ground station. iot means that you can't improve it any more
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[14:06] <aadamson> yeah, it's called iridium or globalstar :)
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[14:06] <aadamson> there are a number of newer sat than funcube-1 with linear transponders, but they all will require more ERP than 10wm in a dipole
[14:10] <gonzo_> using sats, you will nolonger be in the licenec exempt allocation anyway, so the 10mW does not apply
[14:11] <gonzo_> (I think the limit may be dBi not dBd anyway)
[14:11] <gonzo_> someone will correct me I'm sure
[14:13] <mattbrejza> ir2030 says 'e.r.p' without defining it clearly
[14:14] <mattbrejza> (10mW erp)
[14:14] <gonzo_> then I'll happlily win 2.7dB there then
[14:14] <Laurenceb> http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/phillipwood.html
[14:15] <Laurenceb> we need nsa black ops sats to track the balloons
[14:15] <gonzo_> ufo/skynet then
[14:16] <mattbrejza> EN 300 220-1 says 10mW erp also without defining erp
[14:17] <gonzo_> usually they would say eirp
[14:17] <mattbrejza> you would have thought, but they dont
[14:18] <mattbrejza> using dBi/eirp makes sense though
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[14:18] <aadamson> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_radiated_power - I suspect most would use this... we have to register repeaters over here based upon ERP and use that to determine it, which in our case also needs to include haat
[14:18] <gonzo_> unless the use of the dipole as a ref is only an amateur thing?
[14:19] <aadamson> dipole yes, dbi no
[14:19] <aadamson> dipole in most cases is isotropic ala dbi
[14:20] <gonzo_> a dipole is about 2.7dBi
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[14:20] <gonzo_> end on to a perfect dipol you get nothing, therefore gain exists
[14:20] <aadamson> *which* if you have add in haat for erp, a tx at 10wm, into a 2.7dbi antenna at 30km - would have *WAY* more than 10mW ERP!
[14:21] <gonzo_> but if the spec does not give the reference value used, you can use discression
[14:23] <aadamson> not trying to determine how the regulation has to be applied, but even a 10mw TX into a 1dbi antenna at 30km in altitude assuming again you need to apply haat - would be logrithmically larger than 10mW ERP
[14:23] <aadamson> but no one has complained so ignorance is bliss as they say... and I have to go do real work ;(... ttul
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[15:01] <eroomde> so i now see why skunkworks emphasized the need for a very fast drawing change-and-release system
[15:01] <eroomde> it's so when you cut something wrong, you can quickly change the design model to be that length and re-issue
[15:01] <eroomde> i am convinced this is one of the main time-savers in the development of a mechanical thing
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[15:04] <mfa298> is this an alternative approach to measure twice cut once.
[15:06] <adamgreig> cut once, measure once
[15:06] <adamgreig> 33% saving
[15:07] <adamgreig> and your cuts are always exactly as measured
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[15:09] <LeoBodnar> i can see factory production having making an effigy
[15:10] <LeoBodnar> *making it and then having it
[15:12] <mfa298> ideally then you have a pfy cad monkey and you can blame differences between what's in the cad drawing and the reality on him
[15:13] <eroomde> that would be me
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[15:21] <ulfr> hi
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[15:25] <DL7AD_> hi ulfr
[15:27] <ulfr> hi DL7AD_
[15:27] Nick change: DL7AD_ -> DL7AD
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[16:15] <xander> Hello
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[16:28] <DL7AD> hi xander
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[16:39] <Reb-SM3ULC> hello
[16:40] <DL7AD> hi Reb-SM3ULC
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[16:44] <g0pai_ian> UK Amateur Radio Licence, page 21, Notes to Schedule 1, (c) Effective radiated power (e.r.p.) (in a given direction) is the product of the power supplied to the antenna and its gain relative to a half-wave dipole in a given direction.
[16:45] <g0pai_ian> No good reason to believe that Ofcom legal definitions have a variable meaning.
[16:45] <eroomde> are birthdates uniformly distributed?
[16:46] <g0pai_ian> Mine is Ed, once annually. I can't speak for others though!
[16:49] <mfa298> there's at least one lucky person that gets two birthdays a year and some unlucky people that only get a birthday every 4 years.
[16:49] <eroomde> i mean for the population
[16:50] <g0pai_ian> Is that official or a leap of the imagination!
[16:51] <mfa298> you'de think it might be uniform but in reality I expect it's not that uniform.
[16:51] <mfa298> September seems to be a popular month for birthdays for some reason :p
[16:52] <g0pai_ian> It's a bit distorted due to statements like : Hooray, hooray, it's the 1st of May and outdoor sex begins today.
[16:53] <g0pai_ian> September birth blip was probably due to the fall in temperature coinciding with a holiday period and too much alcohol.
[16:53] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ6tZtGrShg
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[16:59] Action: Reb-SM3ULC tests a couple of new dvb-dongles. Receives aircraft adsb from 200+ km away from indoors kitchentable. Maybe a lot of ERP...
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[17:02] <MartinR> hello
[17:02] Nick change: MartinR -> Guest36984
[17:02] Nick change: Guest36984 -> Martin_R
[17:03] Nick change: Martin_R -> Martin_R1
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[17:18] <UKC_WTM5> My lost payload has been posted and is on its way home :-)
[17:18] <mfa298> where did it actually wash up ?
[17:19] <UKC_WTM5> The woman who found it doesn't speak English very well, she referred to it as ". We have
[17:19] <UKC_WTM5> founded the box at the playa de Bretene." Which makes me think its this place? https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/La+Playa/@47.518264,-2.581805,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x480ffb9552c72cfd:0x3a3406a0d3b058ab
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[17:23] <mfa298> could be. That looks to have been quite a journey if that's where it went to
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[17:24] <mfa298> there seem to be a few names for Brittany that are similar to Bretene although I don't see any that actually match that spelling
[17:24] <UKC_WTM5> I emailed her again so i should find out soon :)
[17:24] <UKC_WTM5> Yeah exactly
[17:24] <UKC_WTM5> Couldnt find an exact match
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[17:27] <x-f> playa means beach, might be as well be northern side of the peninsula
[17:27] <x-f> i think Bretane -> Bretagne -> Brittany
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[17:28] <x-f> Bretene*
[17:30] <UKC_WTM5> Okay, got an email back:
[17:30] <UKC_WTM5> "No, it was in Bredene, Belgien. The beach. By google, there is a point "Bredene aan Zee"."
[17:30] <UKC_WTM5> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/8450+Bredene-aan-Zee/@51.2478395,2.96167,15z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x47dca9676c4edb27:0x4945e0550a1f560
[17:31] <UKC_WTM5> https://www.google.co.uk/maps/dir/The+University+of+Kent,+The+Registry,+Canterbury,+Kent+CT2+7NZ,+United+Kingdom/8450+Bredene-aan-Zee,+Belgium/@51.1075633,1.5182718,9z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5!1m1!1s0x47deca36929a4527:0xe17bfa0b0060a838!2m2!1d1.065099!2d51.296757!1m5!1m1!1s0x47dca9676c4edb27:0x4945e0550a1f560!2m2!1d2.96167!2d51.24784
[17:32] <mfa298> Belgium is the direction I'd have guessed for it heading with no other information
[17:32] <mfa298> gaah google maps is soooo slow on this machine since they made it better
[17:33] <cm13g09> lol
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[17:47] <SilverIV7> Evening all, just wondered if anyones already got an existing PCB layout to connect an Arduino Uno, NTX2B and Max-7 ... I have my circuit laid out for testing with breadboard but would prefer to have another board sitting on top to slide the components into for the flight. I've drawn a simple circuit design but if there's an existing one then that would be easier http://drttrd.com/image
[17:47] <SilverIV7> s/hab-board.png
[17:48] <Upu> well all I did was get a circuit diagram for a very basic AVR circuit
[17:48] <Upu> and tag it all together
[17:48] <Upu> you have the circuit there it seems
[17:48] <Upu> alternately buy a prototyping sheild
[17:49] <Upu> and solder to that
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[17:49] <Upu> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/product/7589345/?grossPrice=Y&cm_mmc=UK%7CShopping-_-Google+PLA-_-Arduino%7CProcessor+%26+Microcontroller+Development+Kits-_-7589345&kpid=&istCompanyId=f7e7b05b-2daf-4c0e-8825-3633baf8113b&istItemId=xwipqaiwp&istBid=tzit&gclid=CJagotGV970CFagKwwod0j0ARg
[17:50] <SilverIV7> ah I didn't know they existed, that could be perfect
[17:50] <Upu> just make sure the antenna for the GPS sticks out
[17:50] <Upu> away from the ground plane
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[17:57] <SilverIV7> are the middle pins in the prototyping board all connected tracks?
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[18:00] <an112> What payload antennas do you guys use btw. Designing my first payload and I'm not entirely sure what to go with.
[18:02] <an112> SilverIV7: You can see what pads are connected in the picture, pretty sure they are not connected otherwise.
[18:03] <Upu> an112 http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payloadantenna?s[]=payload&s[]=antenna
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[18:03] <Upu> thats for 434Mhz
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[18:04] <an112> Ah yeah, I saw that. But doesn't that groundplane have quite a null facing directly down?
[18:04] <SilverIV7> this is a silly question... you know the pliers you use the strim whole wires to get contacts, what are they called?!
[18:06] <an112> I'd like to get a good signal when I'm directly below :)
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[18:09] <myself> crimpers?
[18:09] <myself> strippers?
[18:10] <SilverIV7> crimpers, that's the one!
[18:10] <LeoBodnar> wire stripper removes the insulation
[18:11] <LeoBodnar> crimping tool squashes the pin to fix to the bare wire
[18:11] <SilverIV7> oh i mean strippers then
[18:12] <nats`> strippers !!! where ?!
[18:14] <ulfr> No blackjack?
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[18:39] <PE0SAT> This is a nice link for all the RTL-SDR users: http://g8jnj.webs.com/currentprojects.htm
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[18:42] <craag> ^^ And look at the Microwave WebSDR to see the results :)
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[18:54] <PE0SAT> craag: Yeah!
[19:01] <Upu> has someone got the program to hand that calculates your APRS password from your call sign ?
[19:02] <craag> http://apps.magicbug.co.uk/passcode/
[19:02] <Upu> ta
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[19:11] <DL7AD> craag: whats this?
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[19:21] <craag> DL7AD: The link? It's an APRS passcode generator
[19:21] <ulfr> heh
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[19:30] <tweetBot> @NORB_HAB: NORB 4 up and running, and transmitting THOR! See here: http://t.co/aF2ZwZfv9w #ukhas Big thanks to @AnthonyStirk :) http://t.co/SlO5tjOWTs
[19:30] <arko> nice
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[19:31] <ibanezmatt13> sounds even nicer :)
[19:31] <craag> ibanezmatt13: woo!
[19:31] <craag> Lovely looking board
[19:31] <craag> Look forward to hearing it at altitude!
[19:31] <ibanezmatt13> thanks, just realised the shape makes it look like you're sticking your middle up at someone
[19:31] <ibanezmatt13> yep me too!
[19:31] <craag> yep :P
[19:32] <craag> What's the step-up you used?
[19:32] <ibanezmatt13> LTC3526
[19:32] <craag> cheers
[19:32] <ibanezmatt13> Looks like we got that chip antenna located right too :)
[19:33] <eroomde> academic collaborations http://i.imgur.com/T8cjD2y.gif.jpg
[19:33] <craag> :)
[19:33] <ibanezmatt13> haha
[19:36] <arko> lol
[19:39] <ibanezmatt13> Some modification to a 6 AA battery holder needed to be made first though http://1drv.ms/1lG43ec
[19:42] <arko> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qlqe1DXnJKQ
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[19:51] <ibanezmatt13> wow
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[20:02] <mikestir> I'm just about to send off the gerbers for my kl05 based tracker
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[20:31] <aadamson> mike
[20:31] <aadamson> mikestir, figured I'd pass a couple of things along
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[20:31] <aadamson> a) did you include a clock source for the rtc?
[20:31] <aadamson> are you going to use it to wake you up from sleep?
[20:31] <aadamson> if so, you might want to consider a 32.7xxkhz crystal for that
[20:32] <mikestir> I was going to use the internal 32 kHz ref
[20:32] <mikestir> since accuracy isn't that critical
[20:32] <aadamson> b) if you are going to use the SI radio, be sure you run *most* all the GPIO's from it to the processor... you can actual enable a wakeup timer on it
[20:32] <aadamson> and generate an interrupt to wakeup from
[20:33] <aadamson> I'm right there now... I got go fully to stop mode and draw only a few uA of current, but what to use to wake up from
[20:33] <aadamson> all the clocks are off so can't use the lse, lsi, or other internal references
[20:34] <aadamson> gps clock doesn't function when it's on standby power only
[20:34] <aadamson> so right now, looking at the si Wakeup timer to generate a 1second pulse
[20:34] <aadamson> I only need an exti to wake from
[20:34] <aadamson> sri the above should be nA of current
[20:35] <aadamson> on the si4xxx, the wakeup if based on an internal 32k RC is calibrated each transmission
[20:36] <aadamson> what I don't know yet is how much additional current of the few micro amps that is take in standby mode that the wakeup timer will generate
[20:37] <mikestir> hmm. I am clocking the cpu from the the clock out on the Si so that the pll and mcu clocks are in sync, for generating domex, etc
[20:37] <mikestir> but I wasn't planning on using it for wakeup
[20:37] <mikestir> the kl05 should be able to wake from "very low leakage stop", with the internal 32 kHz
[20:38] <aadamson> well I only offer the above as some observations as I'm right there now
[20:38] <mikestir> yeah but it's a different mcu remember
[20:38] <aadamson> I'm asleep at about 1nA, but now I need to wake up ;)
[20:38] <aadamson> yes I know
[20:39] <aadamson> but it's a cortex so there are some similarities
[20:39] <mikestir> isn't yours an m3?
[20:39] <aadamson> indeed and you an m0 or m0+
[20:39] <mikestir> m0+
[20:39] <mikestir> so it has some nice sleep modes
[20:40] <aadamson> yeah I wanted lots bigger ram than the m0's from st provide
[20:40] <mikestir> I don't have the space to route another gpio connection anyway!
[20:40] <aadamson> :)
[20:40] <aadamson> well there is that problem
[20:40] <aadamson> I ran all of them except for gpio2 back to the processor.
[20:41] <aadamson> opps. revise that...
[20:41] <mikestir> I could squeeze another track in, but there's no room for the vias
[20:42] <aadamson> I use gpio 3 for led, gpio2 I didn't use (the 3,2 gpio aren't much good for anything anyway as they can influence the radio core too much).
[20:42] <aadamson> gpio 0 and 1 and nirq are back to the processor
[20:43] <aadamson> and of course all the spi nss pins
[20:43] <aadamson> and yea the l1's are pretty similar to the m0's for power, just much faster, and way more ram/flash
[20:44] <aadamson> but with only 22mA of current coming to the battery when on solar (with 1x3 cells), every little bit helps
[20:45] <aadamson> I don't/won't shutdown the radio, it will be in standby, the gps is off on backup power, so only thing taking power is the TCXO and the DPLL
[20:45] <aadamson> DPLL is in standby as well
[20:45] <aadamson> anyway I saw you comment about going to gerbers for production and figured I'd offer that insight...
[20:46] <mikestir> I haven't used a TCXO. I want to experiment with trimming against the gps clock
[20:46] <aadamson> with the 1 second pulse?
[20:46] <aadamson> and what for temp?
[20:46] <mikestir> yeah this is a toy for playing with the kinetis as much as anything else
[20:47] <mikestir> yes against the timepulse output
[20:48] <mikestir> it's also a challenge to see if iteedstudio can make a board that barely passes their DRC
[20:48] <aadamson> hehe...
[20:49] <aadamson> my only comment there.... oshpark or hackvana :)
[20:49] <aadamson> I'm not a fan of the iteed stuff
[20:49] <aadamson> a bunch of friend have used them in the past and much perfer the others
[20:49] <mikestir> I've had several boards from them and they've all been fine. Always 12/12+ though until now
[20:49] <mikestir> this is (mostly) 8/8
[20:50] <aadamson> but I have *never* used them so I have no specific knowledge
[20:50] <Laurenceb_> ive done 8/8 / 7/7 stuff with seeedstudio
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[20:50] <aadamson> for production I go to pcbgold, for prototype it's oshpark
[20:50] <mikestir> this passes DRC at 7/7 and iteed claims they can do 6/6
[20:50] <Laurenceb_> sounds fine
[20:51] <aadamson> now if I can just get oshpark to do .8mm boards :)
[20:51] <Upu> hackvana are fine
[20:52] <aadamson> btw, mikestir are you using 7Q or 7C gps?
[20:52] <mikestir> was intending to use 7c
[20:52] <aadamson> as the 7C uses a not very accurate time source so the it's noted all through the design docs that the 1S pulse can have variance
[20:53] <aadamson> and only works reliably on gnss, not glasnos
[20:53] <Upu> wouldn't worry about GLONASS
[20:53] <aadamson> yeat that :)
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> GLASNOST
[20:54] Nick change: pjm_ -> pjm
[20:54] <aadamson> I'm at the point of trying to figure out what I'm going to use as my time base.
[20:55] <aadamson> with clocks being shut off during sleep, I think I'm going to have to use the external interrupt
[20:55] <aadamson> and count seconds :)
[20:55] <aadamson> millis() is going to be useless .
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[20:57] <aadamson> http://news.sky.com/story/1247985/raf-jet-chases-russian-planes-away-from-uk - sheesh, you guys over there be careful.
[20:57] <aadamson> there are some idiots on the wild it appears :(
[20:59] <Laurenceb_> RTC is low power
[21:00] <aadamson> assuming you have the 32.xkhz crystal attached to it :)
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[21:01] <Laurenceb_> theres is onboard RC oscillator, but ive never used it
[21:01] <Laurenceb_> LSI ?
[21:01] <aadamson> it's 37khz and not every accurate
[21:02] <aadamson> there are routines you can use to calibrate it for the rtc, but requires the LSI clock to be enabled
[21:02] <aadamson> in stop mode all clocks are stopped
[21:02] <LeoBodnar> what are you trying to achieve aadamson?
[21:03] <aadamson> lowest possible power consumption when asleep
[21:03] <aadamson> mostly for my own learnings
[21:03] <LeoBodnar> so why are you worried about timekeeping if you are asleep?
[21:03] <aadamson> I'm not
[21:03] <aadamson> but what are you using for time base when you wake up?
[21:03] <marshall_law> hey guys, I just posted photos from my first successfully recovered HAB :) https://www.flickr.com/photos/arcaner/13984549035/in/set-72157644158487285/
[21:03] <aadamson> processor has been halted
[21:04] <aadamson> so there is no *millis()* that's valid during sleep
[21:04] <LeoBodnar> TCXO naturally
[21:04] <aadamson> tcxo on the processor?
[21:04] <LeoBodnar> i have just one tcxo
[21:05] <aadamson> yep, and how are you using it if the processor is asleep and not processing?
[21:05] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/MnEavlE.gif
[21:05] <aadamson> to generate a *next interval* to do something?
[21:05] <LeoBodnar> watchdog timer
[21:05] <aadamson> yeah. I could do that too I suppose
[21:06] <mikestir> can you do that? I think you are running into the problem I found with the "low power" cortex M3s, which is that they aren't very good if you spend a lot of time asleep
[21:06] <mikestir> they are great in terms of MIPS/MHz
[21:06] <aadamson> doesn't really solve the time base question, just math to keep track of all the times and then do something based upon that math
[21:06] <aadamson> mikestir, yes, I can either use the IWDG or the WWDG
[21:07] <aadamson> and clock it off an external pulse or an internal timer (but then not in stop mode anymore)
[21:07] <mikestir> yeah that's the thing - not in stop mode anymore
[21:07] <aadamson> yep
[21:07] <LeoBodnar> i can't get my head around why timig is the problem
[21:07] <aadamson> because I don't think you *stop* the AVR LeoBodnar, you sleep it
[21:08] <aadamson> that's the difference
[21:08] <LeoBodnar> you have onboard device that keeps time to +-30nsec absolute accuracy
[21:08] <LeoBodnar> i don't use AVR
[21:08] <LeoBodnar> and what ever I use I *stop* it
[21:09] <LeoBodnar> and it wakes up after 3 seconds from coma and sends a beep on RF and stops again
[21:09] <aadamson> how does it wake up?
[21:09] <mikestir> aadamson: the PIC (which I believe LeoBodnar uses) has a really low current RC oscillator which it uses for the watchdog timer
[21:09] <aadamson> watchdog
[21:09] <LeoBodnar> and watchdog wakes it up in 3 seconds, ad infinitum
[21:10] <aadamson> and yes I can do the exact same thing
[21:10] <aadamson> for a small trade off in current
[21:10] <mikestir> iirc it's not so small
[21:10] <mikestir> you need to wait for those new stm32 M0+ devices that are meant to come out this month
[21:11] <mikestir> or try the kinetis
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[21:11] <Laurenceb_> there is watchdog on stm32
[21:11] <Laurenceb_> you could do the same
[21:11] <aadamson> there are 2
[21:12] <aadamson> actually
[21:12] <aadamson> iwdg and wwdg
[21:12] <aadamson> and the rtc for that matter
[21:12] <aadamson> it's a 3uA penalty
[21:13] <aadamson> oh, actually might be less than that
[21:13] <LeoBodnar> you are trying to save 1uA while GPS uses ~ 1000 times that
[21:13] <aadamson> GPS is off
[21:14] <aadamson> oh well, there a million versions I'll figure one out... gps when on standby on the 7C is 300uA I believe, so it's technically 300* more
[21:14] <LeoBodnar> but on average GPS will be 10-100 times bigger energy consumer than sleeping or stopped MCU
[21:15] <aadamson> or certainly the ratio is huge
[21:15] <aadamson> 40-50ma vs. 3
[21:15] <aadamson> 3-5
[21:15] <aadamson> for that matter add the other 20 from the radio
[21:15] <aadamson> *well, will be less* on the 13db version over the 20
[21:16] <aadamson> I'm just trying to maximize what I can easily... 2 solar cells in parallel with no load on the buck controller put 22mA of current back in a 3.6v LIPO
[21:16] <aadamson> so that's the margin you have basically
[21:17] <LeoBodnar> if 1uA is important then the design has to be cimpletely different - separate energy sources for high and low current consumers, etc
[21:17] <aadamson> not trying to build a rocket controller :)... just learning, exploring and maximizing what I've built is all, which at the moment is pretty easy in software
[21:18] <aadamson> and somewhat *thinking outloud*
[21:18] <LeoBodnar> i think you are consciously avoiding the hard part - attacking GPS and TX efficiency
[21:18] <LeoBodnar> half that and you double the payload longevity
[21:19] <aadamson> yep
[21:19] <aadamson> I've already tackled the GPS
[21:19] <LeoBodnar> oh!
[21:19] <aadamson> at least for what I'm going to do for now and that part works just fine
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[21:19] <aadamson> combination of low power mode and shutting it off completely
[21:20] <aadamson> only waking it when new data is needed
[21:20] <LeoBodnar> nobody managed to do that cleanly yet
[21:20] <LeoBodnar> so congratulations
[21:20] <aadamson> I've been running one in my office for 2 days on 5 second intervals prior to transmit (on 1 minute intervals) and it's worked so far
[21:20] <LeoBodnar> it worked for me brilliantly as well
[21:21] <aadamson> it basically switched between non power save and power save as is needed, then is shut off when no needed
[21:21] <aadamson> yeah, lab environment doesn't = space for sure
[21:21] <LeoBodnar> and then when you fly it you get this http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-11/2.png
[21:21] <aadamson> so I'm not going to claim victory just yet there :)
[21:21] <aadamson> yes I saw those
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[21:22] <LeoBodnar> both MAX-6 and MAX-7
[21:22] <aadamson> and at the moment, I'm running everything stock, spitting out nmea and pubx - nothing binary at the moment other than turning on and off power save
[21:23] <aadamson> 2 noteworthies there pubx is much faster to provide a solution than nmea, but it's way in accurate until iyou have 2G or 3G solution, it will happily tell you where it is half the world away :)
[21:24] <LeoBodnar> what is PUBX?
[21:24] <aadamson> the ascii versio nof the binary protocol, you poll for it
[21:24] <LeoBodnar> over serial?
[21:24] <aadamson> yes
[21:24] <aadamson> don't turn off the pubx strings and send this "uartPrint("$PUBX,00*33\r\n");"
[21:24] <aadamson> and it will respond
[21:25] <mikestir> why not just use ubx?
[21:25] <LeoBodnar> ah, i have never used it so i don't know what it does
[21:25] <aadamson> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:falcom_fsa03
[21:25] <aadamson> figured you guys pioneered it :)
[21:25] <LeoBodnar> i use binary over I2C
[21:25] <aadamson> *not really* but at least documented it
[21:25] <aadamson> mikestir, I didn't want to deal with all the packet structure overhead for just yet
[21:26] <mikestir> it's easier than parsing the nmea sentence
[21:26] <aadamson> so I modified the gps parser to take pubx strings as well
[21:26] <Upu> you can do way more with binary
[21:26] <mikestir> you can marshall it straight into a C struct
[21:26] <aadamson> yes I know
[21:26] <aadamson> I had/have enough things on my plate bringing up a new platform and speed isn't one of them needed at the moment
[21:27] <aadamson> plus I had *consumers* (software routines) that I reused from another project
[21:27] <LeoBodnar> one serial char worth of GPS on time will probably overshadow all your microamp savings
[21:27] <aadamson> at 115200 baud, I kinda doubt that
[21:28] <marshall_law> aadamson: what radio are you using to achieve 115200?
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[21:30] <aadamson> who said anything about radios?
[21:30] <aadamson> serial connection to the gps is at 115200 buad
[21:30] <marshall_law> ah. I jumped in late
[21:30] <marshall_law> gotcha
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[21:31] <aadamson> no problem... lots of learning going on today (mostly on my part) :)
[21:31] <aadamson> but to that point, isn't the Si radio good for 1M(bits) in 4(g)fsk?
[21:31] <aadamson> so you could if you wanted
[21:31] <marshall_law> my 1w xtend900 can do 115200 baud but obviously only at very short distances :)
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[21:32] <marshall_law> i used 9600 baud for the full range
[21:32] <aadamson> yeah ture of them all, I use some 900mhz gear in a *reno race airplane* for telemetry that also has that issue
[21:32] <marshall_law> yup
[21:33] <marshall_law> it worked at ~27km with a high gain antenna, but dropped probably every other telemetry packet or so
[21:34] <LeoBodnar> FEC
[21:34] <aadamson> interesting the company who's equipment I used got bought by Laird... go figure
[21:34] <LeoBodnar> or LoRa
[21:35] <LeoBodnar> which is FEC
[21:35] <marshall_law> aadamson: I'm not familiar with the Si radio, have a link?
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[21:35] <marshall_law> I plan to start using amateur bands on my next HAB
[21:36] <LeoBodnar> I don't think Si has any error correction in hardware
[21:36] <aadamson> http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/Si4464-63-61-60.pdf
[21:36] <nats`> LeoBodnar nop it doesn't
[21:36] <nats`> should be in a next revision
[21:36] <nats`> LORA is more than FEC
[21:37] Action: marshall_law will be finally getting HAM technician
[21:37] <nats`> it's some sort of DSSS with wideband
[21:38] <LeoBodnar> hmm yes, the boundaries are quite vague
[21:38] <aadamson> nats`, what time frame ?
[21:38] <nats`> aadamson for the FEC ?
[21:38] <aadamson> yeah,
[21:38] <aadamson> another friend working on another project may be curious
[21:38] <LeoBodnar> i'd say DSSS is where spectrum is *much* wider than baudrate
[21:38] <nats`> no idea they released or will release soon C version
[21:39] <aadamson> uses the Si for LRS RC systems
[21:39] <nats`> LeoBodnar yep the difference for what I think is DSSS is FEC in parallele on the air
[21:39] <nats`> :)
[21:40] <LeoBodnar> it's proprietary anyway - so we can just assume it is just plain magic
[21:40] <aadamson> isn't it all - this RF stuff?
[21:40] <nats`> aadamson nop
[21:40] <nats`> magic is only when it's proprietary :p
[21:41] <aadamson> oh, drats... I was thinking about cornering the market, but none of mine is *magic*
[21:41] <aadamson> or proprietary
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[21:42] <marshall_law> speaking as a software engineer without an RF background, it is all magic to me :)
[21:43] <malgar> today I built my first yagi :D
[21:43] <malgar> I still have to test it :P
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[21:58] <an112> malgar: built mine last weekend :) tested it on an amateur sattelite, figured if it works at 3000km it ought to work for ballooning
[21:58] <amell> interesting. i see the B-46 prediction takes it back to finland.
[21:59] <amell> catching up on zeus :)
[21:59] <malgar> are there HAMsats working on 434 MHz?
[21:59] <an112> Aye, many
[21:59] <an112> Mostly sending morse code
[21:59] <malgar> where could I find a good list? or suggestions..
[22:00] <an112> I received HO-68: http://www.pe0sat.vgnet.nl/satellite/amateur-radio-satellites/ho-68/
[22:02] <an112> I used a program called orbitron to predict the orbits
[22:03] <an112> amsat has a tool as well I see: http://www.amsat.org/amsat-new/tools/predict/
[22:03] <malgar> nice, tnx
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[22:17] <Carry_> Hey guys, just wondering if items (such as hot pockets) would work to keep the electronics warm at ~40kms
[22:21] <adamgreig> generally the electronics do a great job of keeping the electronics warm
[22:22] <adamgreig> additionally hot pockets mostly require oxygen to function which is less useful at 40km
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[22:25] <amell> why do you need to keep electronics warm?
[22:26] <an112> The sodium acetate ones would work... In theory xD
[22:26] <Carry_> Ok thanks! I was also wondering about parachute design, is there any recommended designs out there for a large balloon (Kaymont 3000, and a 1.5 meter parachute.)
[22:26] <Carry_> And, :D
[22:27] <Carry_> Electronic wise, it was mostly the GoPros
[22:29] <an112> If you absolutely have to, you can probably store more heat by taking up more batteries and using resistors as a heat source
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[22:32] <BrainDamage> try to insulate it as much as possible first
[22:33] <LeoBodnar> Kaymont 3000? oO
[22:33] <LeoBodnar> what is the payload?
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[22:38] <Laurenceb_> <LeoBodnar> i'd say DSSS is where spectrum is *much* wider than baudrate
[22:38] <Laurenceb_> that doesnt help you
[22:38] <Reb-SM3ULC> LeoBodnar: plans for hf-comms on some future balloon?
[22:38] <Laurenceb_> DSSS effectivly makes the transmitter narrowband in a new space
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> so shannon doesnt help you
[22:39] <LeoBodnar> i was just defining difference between DSSS and FSK+FEC
[22:39] <LeoBodnar> line is blurred
[22:39] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[22:40] <Laurenceb_> DSSS help you avoid narrowband noise
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[22:40] <Laurenceb_> FSK does help with Shannon-Hartley
[22:40] <LeoBodnar> yeah but in clean condition and single RX TX it is hardly of any use
[22:40] <LeoBodnar> over narrow band
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> shannon-hartley just defines S/N ratio
[22:41] <LeoBodnar> Reb-SM3ULC: i have not had any luck with HF but i was using ISM HF
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> DSSS just moves you to a new space
[22:41] <LeoBodnar> exactly
[22:41] <Laurenceb_> like time domain, frequency domain, then DSSS phase/prn domain
[22:42] <LeoBodnar> yep
[22:42] <LeoBodnar> if all assembles correctly you get the same S/N and performace figures
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> yeah
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[22:44] <Laurenceb_> a little confusing at first sight :D
[22:45] <Reb-SM3ULC> LeoBodnar: right, you did one try?
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[22:49] <an112> "Hydrogen in some senses is better then Helium; it has more lift, doesn't diffuse out of the balloon as fast as helium and also is cheaper. " <--- I thought hydrogen diffusses faster as the molecule is smaller, am I wrong?
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[22:50] <adamgreig> gaseous hydrogen is H2 whereas helium is He, so I think actually the He molecule is smaller
[22:50] <LeoBodnar> well it's just like using substitution cipher
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[22:50] <an112> He is 4 times as heavy as H though
[22:52] <adamgreig> so?
[22:52] <adamgreig> the mass is all in the nucleus, it's not like it has much volume...
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[22:53] <an112> You speak sense thx!
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