highaltitude.log.20140326

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[10:12] <BalYOLO> Chaps, can't get a decent waterfall to show up in dl-fldigi
[10:12] <BalYOLO> our frequency is showing up in sdr sharp
[10:12] <Darkside> audio levles?
[10:12] <Darkside> are you in tune correctly?
[10:12] <BalYOLO> and we have virtual audio cable installed
[10:13] <BalYOLO> in tune?
[10:13] <Darkside> uhh
[10:13] <Darkside> like have you got SDR Sharp demodulating a USB signal at the right place?
[10:13] <Darkside> im fairly certain theres a guide about this
[10:14] <BalYOLO> Looking at a narrower band?
[10:14] <Darkside> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:sdr_trackerhttp://ukhas.org.uk/guides:sdr_tracker
[10:14] <Darkside> argh
[10:14] <Darkside> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:sdr_tracker
[10:14] <Darkside> that page
[10:15] <Darkside> what did you do at the last launch?
[10:15] <Darkside> i thought you guys have launched already, why would you launch if you couldn't decode locally?
[10:16] <BalYOLO> Cheers
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[10:17] <daveake> that went well
[10:17] <Darkside> lol
[10:18] <fsphil> ooch
[10:18] <Darkside> lol
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[10:30] <malgar> I'm quite curious about the ranges of the signal in different conditions on the ground. At the moment we are testing the ntx2b without transmitting antenna and with a simple sdr dongle with it's own antenna. It works well up to 100 m but then the signal starts fading. What's your experience?
[10:31] BalYOLO (4d59ae57@gateway/web/freenode/ip.77.89.174.87) joined #highaltitude.
[10:33] <BalYOLO> Having a bit of trouble focusing on the two bands in Dl-fldigi
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[10:34] <BalYOLO> It cant quite read the telemetry
[10:35] <malgar> what's your setup?
[10:36] <BalYOLO> Is there a way of zooming in dl-fldigi? the bands are so small
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[10:37] <fsphil> are you sure you have the right signal?
[10:37] <BalYOLO> setup: using sdr sharp and a dongle
[10:37] <BalYOLO> virtual audio cable too
[10:37] <fsphil> it should look similar to this: https://lh3.ggpht.com/-Nj7jxuy9x4Y/UdfubnQ7w4I/AAAAAAAAAd0/uVKrcwLuCho/s1600/Screenshot+from+2013-07-06+11:13:07.png
[10:38] <fsphil> a screenshot of your SDR app and dl-fldigi would help
[10:38] <BalYOLO> Yeah it looks a bit like that but the bands are minuscule
[10:40] <BalYOLO> How is your dl-fl so well focused on 434?
[10:40] <fsphil> I don't know what you mean by "focused"
[10:40] <fsphil> show us some screenshots
[10:40] <daveake> dl-fldigi just shows what's sent to it - an audio signal
[10:40] <BalYOLO> only showing 434 not some huge range
[10:40] <daveake> It's the SDR side where you're going wrong
[10:40] <BalYOLO> ah
[10:44] <BalYOLO> Is there a way of chopping down the range of frequencies sdr is sending on?
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[10:46] <mfa298> BalYOLO: some screenshots would really help with what you're trying to explain
[10:48] <daveake> BalYOLO Have you followed http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:sdr_tracker ?
[10:49] <BalYOLO> Yes, i have followed that
[10:50] <daveake> http://ukhas.org.uk/_media/guides:sdr5.png is the key one here
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[10:53] <Joel_re> hey, as per the balloon chart, how do I figure what size the cylinder is
[10:53] <Joel_re> 3.21 cubic meter of helium would be required for a 1500gms balloon
[10:54] <daveake> What you neeed to do is locate the signal (twin peaks), zooming in so you can see it better (this doesn't affect what gets sent to ddl-fldigi it just makes it easier for you)
[10:54] <daveake> dl-fldigi will only see 3kHz or so of audio anyway
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[10:54] <Joel_re> e.g is it a 5liter cylinder?
[10:55] <daveake> Joel_re they're usually sold on volume of uncompressed gas
[10:55] <daveake> e.g. a BOC "T" cylinder is 3.6 cubic metres
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[10:57] <Joel_re> daveake: ok
[10:58] <FuzzyLemon> https://www.dropbox.com/s/v6rjqzzj7vvnan1/Screenshot%202014-03-26%2010.57.35.png
[10:58] <BalYOLO> I can see the twin peaks, but in dl-fldigi the bands are tiny and a huge frequency range is showing up - making it hard to put the lines over the bands
[10:58] <Joel_re> is there a chart for hydrogen similar to the one herehttp://ukhas.org.uk/guides:balloon_data
[10:58] <BalYOLO> fuzzyLemon has our screenshot
[10:58] <daveake> Well it's completely obvious what's wrong there
[10:59] <BalYOLO> ...
[10:59] <daveake> SDR is passing on the band you select - that's the shaded bit to the right of the red line
[10:59] <daveake> So you're just mis-tuned
[10:59] <daveake> Just select the correct part (i.e. including both peaks)
[11:00] <daveake> At present only the right-most peak is getting sent to dl-fldigi
[11:01] <BalYOLO> ok thanks a lot dave
[11:01] <FuzzyLemon> https://www.dropbox.com/s/2a4925whfeed0jd/Screenshot%202014-03-26%2011.00.56.png
[11:01] <daveake> that was easy wasn't it ?
[11:01] <BalYOLO> it was!
[11:01] <fsphil> you also have dl-fldigi on the wrong data mode
[11:01] <daveake> You might want to re-tune to get the 2 peaks away from the centre
[11:02] <daveake> there's usually an artificial peak in the centre and you want to stay away from that
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[11:02] <daveake> And as fsphil says you need to tell dl-fldigi that you're using RTTY, and what baud rate etc etc
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[11:03] <BalYOLO> How do you widen the decoding bars?
[11:04] <Joel_re> BalYOLO: tune it in SDR# such that the waterfall in dl-fldigi is centered
[11:04] <jiffe98> so I'm curious how does spacenear.us calculate burst and landing predictions? I'm guessing it needs more than just previous flight path data
[11:05] <fsphil> it uses wind data from NOAA
[11:05] <daveake> Joel_re he has done
[11:06] <fsphil> current and predicted for up to a week
[11:06] <daveake> BalYOLO the bars ser the "Audio shift" or whatever it's called on the rtty setup page
[11:06] <Joel_re> ah
[11:06] <jiffe98> fsphil: does it need balloon/payload parameters?
[11:06] <eroomde> jiffe98: yes
[11:06] <fsphil> jiffe98: yes. they're set manually
[11:07] <jiffe98> gotcha that makes sense
[11:07] <fsphil> the default is usually 5m/s up and down, 33km burst
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[11:07] <eroomde> ascent rate, burst alt, descent velocity at sea-level (from which it back-calculates the ballistic coefficient)
[11:07] <Joel_re> how accurate is the prediction, in terms of distance covered by the payload
[11:08] <Joel_re> I checked a few days ago and my payload seemed to end up 90+ kms away
[11:08] <fsphil> that's not bad :)
[11:08] <daveake> yup
[11:08] <Joel_re> Im guessing that directly depends onthe wind data
[11:08] <daveake> accuracy depends on lots of things
[11:08] <eroomde> it depends on: accuracy of forecast, accurcy of your calulated ascent and descent numbers and burst alt
[11:08] <daveake> yes wind data - one of my flights got screwed when the met office didn't fly their weather balloons that day
[11:09] <eroomde> people seem quite bad at guessing the decent rate of their parachutes
[11:09] <daveake> Also if it's going a long way the error (in that direction) is likely to be higher
[11:09] <Joel_re> hmm
[11:09] <daveake> and then there's the ascent rate and descent rate accuracy
[11:09] <daveake> finally the ballon may burst earlier or later, because of your fill accuracy and variability between balloons
[11:10] <eroomde> but we used to quite routinely get a landing position within 1-2km of predicted over a roughly 100km flight based on the prediction before takeoff
[11:10] <eroomde> and it only gets better throughout the flight
[11:10] <eroomde> infact i have a screencap somewhere
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[11:10] <jiffe98> yeah our ascent rates seem to vary because of helium variations, but typically our descent rates are right on
[11:10] <daveake> You mean helium fill variations?
[11:10] <Joel_re> hmm, 100kms off in that direction would be inaccessible for me
[11:10] <jiffe98> daveake: yeah
[11:10] <fsphil> welcome to my world Joel_re :)
[11:11] <Joel_re> heh
[11:11] <fsphil> 100km in almost any direction is ocean
[11:11] <FuzzyLemon> should be getting telemetry string now. can anyone see any problems with this setup? https://www.dropbox.com/s/uk50tps8h11ipw9/Screenshot%202014-03-26%2011.08.55.png
[11:11] <Joel_re> fencing, but I dont want to try too mnay things right now heh
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[11:12] <fsphil> FuzzyLemon: change RTTY to USB in dl-fldigi
[11:12] <fsphil> turn of SQL at the bottom right too
[11:12] <BalYOLO> both done
[11:13] <eroomde> Joel_re: i have a pic for you
[11:13] <eroomde> but it's in a presentation
[11:13] <fsphil> did you configure all your other parameters? 7-bit/8-bit, stop bits, etc
[11:13] <eroomde> and my presentation software is first insisting on updating the videos
[11:13] <Joel_re> heh, sure I'll wait
[11:13] <Joel_re> UpuWork: the HabAmp arrived, thanks :)
[11:14] <FuzzyLemon> yes all configured
[11:14] <daveake> FuzzyLemon, Your filter width is waay too high
[11:14] <daveake> Click the Auto box next to the filter setting in the RTTY page
[11:15] <eroomde> this is taking forever
[11:15] <eroomde> thanks zeusbot
[11:15] <eroomde> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU6j49eCkF4
[11:16] <eroomde> Joel_re: watch for about 1 minute from 21:16
[11:16] <eroomde> i talk about how we ran a prediction at cutdown
[11:18] <eroomde> the point being that it was good to about 150m landing accuracy from a deployment from about 28km up and similar downrange
[11:19] <Joel_re> ok
[11:20] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xyhbv6ups1qolrn/Screen%20Shot%202014-03-26%20at%2011.18.57.png
[11:20] <eroomde> there's the actual screenshot i wanted to show you
[11:20] <eroomde> so blue is the zoomed in last bit of the predicted flight path that was generated at cutdown
[11:20] <eroomde> and the pn is actually where it landed
[11:22] <Joel_re> woah
[11:22] <Joel_re> neat
[11:22] <eroomde> so it can be good if you have recent weather data (predicotr now always does) and you have calculated your model well for up/down speeds
[11:22] <daveake> As payloads are usually magnetciialy attracted to trees, I was expecting those to be the other way round
[11:22] <Joel_re> heh
[11:22] <daveake> Very impressive eroomde
[11:23] <eroomde> I used to work for a parachute consultancy doing space-parachutes (for mars landers) and indeed this project was about testing parachutes in a mars-lander like enviroment (what that youtube talk is about) so I can calculate the performance of the chute fairly well, and help others if needed
[11:24] <eroomde> as i think there's often a fair bit of error from people not being able to calculate descent rate all that well
[11:24] <eroomde> or confused Cd with vertical component of descent rate, or whatever
[11:24] <eroomde> various pitfalls
[11:26] <Joel_re> hmm
[11:26] <eroomde> or you can just use this like everyone else
[11:26] <eroomde> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:parachute_sizing_chart
[11:26] <Joel_re> how much distance did tha payload travel post cutdown?
[11:27] <eroomde> and be right to within 50% if lucky
[11:27] <eroomde> about 30km too
[11:27] <Joel_re> hmm
[11:27] <eroomde> if accuracy is important, consider a cutdown system
[11:28] <eroomde> we had an uplink on that one to command cutdown when we wanted
[11:29] <eroomde> we had a range of acceptable drop altitudes to get the right mars-like deployment conditions for the chute, we had the real-time prediction running in the car, once in the allowable alt range, we waited for the landing predictions to be somewhere safe - there were multiple predictions, for the nominal case and 3-4 possible failure-mode cases
[11:29] <eroomde> and when they were all good, we commanded the drop-test to start
[11:29] <eroomde> it was a complicated payload, if doign it again i'd go for a simpler payload over a dedicated range
[11:31] <eroomde> adamgreig: what was the name of the NI rep pushing stuff at you at cam? a couple of years ago or whenever it was
[11:37] <BalYOLO> Ok BalYOLO is uploading, is there a way of seeing if we will come up on the map
[11:38] <Joel_re> eroomde: hmm, Im trying not to add too much complexity to my first launch ever
[11:38] <eroomde> Joel_re: sure, that's understandable
[11:38] <Joel_re> also for the cutdown it seems like Im going to need a lookup table of sorts
[11:38] <eroomde> just getting a balloon up and down and tracked seems to cause some people a world of pain
[11:39] <Joel_re> or someway to detect the burst and have a cutdown within X mins of it
[11:39] <eroomde> i'd just launch on a day when the predictor says it should be quite safe, not too marginal
[11:39] <eroomde> most people just allow the burst remains to come down with them
[11:40] Action: Joel_re wonders if the chute could get entangled during the burst
[11:40] <Joel_re> making it drop like a brick
[11:40] <fsphil> it's happened
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[11:40] <Joel_re> hah
[11:40] <Joel_re> :
[11:40] <Joel_re> \
[11:41] <eroomde> butyou can detect burst easily enough with an accelerometer
[11:42] <daveake> BalYOLO You have to create a payload document
[11:42] <daveake> ^ http://habitat.habhub.org/genpayload/
[11:44] <eroomde> yes it has happened - usually a decent rigging system can be good enough to make it not a poblem
[11:44] <eroomde> but the cutdown method is certainly there for peace of mind
[11:45] <eroomde> we used it for Stuff That Matters to get rid of balloon reamins
[11:45] <eroomde> but it doesn't always matter that much
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[12:19] <daveake> BalYOLO, How's it going with the payload document?
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[12:21] <BalYOLO> well we are making a new one and pasting in our strings into parser wizard, not 100% on what some of the numbers are; other than the obvious time, alti, coordinates etc.
[12:21] <FuzzyLemon> $$BALYOLO,88,12:05:28,51.843067,-0.973430,108,8,26,178,08*2953
[12:22] <BalYOLO> thats our string
[12:23] <BalYOLO> Is it just easier just to use a habduino parser info already on the system?
[12:23] <daveake> I'd go from source code
[12:23] <BalYOLO> ok
[12:23] <daveake> There are several habduino entries I wouldn't know which matches what you've got there
[12:24] <BalYOLO> sure, ill have a look
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[12:27] <BalYOLO> ok made a payload doc: 06228f2bcd1215fb087b1afde73613b6
[12:28] <BalYOLO> Can we check we'll come up on the map?
[12:28] <daveake> look on the map
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[12:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Also worth looking in the logtail for errors or parser faliures as @ 12:29 it was failing
[12:30] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> no config doc found
[12:30] <daveake> indeed
[12:31] <BalYOLO> EALTEST 3
[12:31] <daveake> Yes the entry is wrong
[12:31] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> but the callsign is $$BALYOLO
[12:32] <daveake> And you've set BalYOLO
[12:32] <daveake> Consistency might help
[12:32] <BalYOLO> ok
[12:33] <BalYOLO> new doc id: 06228f2bcd1215fb087b1afde73adc3f
[12:34] <daveake> LOOK AT THE LOGTAIL
[12:34] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Use http://habitat.habhub.org/logtail/ to see the errors
[12:34] <daveake> Thanks
[12:34] <daveake> It would really help if you checked stuff yourself
[12:35] <daveake> and look at the source, as I suggested, because if you had you'd have the right number of fields
[12:39] <BalYOLO> dave, we are new to HABing, so we havent used things like the logtail before - thats why we are asking for advice
[12:40] <BalYOLO> What exactly do you mean by the source?
[12:40] <Darkside> oh god
[12:40] <daveake> Yes, btut you just filled in a payload document. It asks for what fields you have. You can see those in the telemetry string. You can see the contents in your source code. You have *everything* you need to fill in that document correctly.
[12:40] <Darkside> THE SOURCE CODE
[12:40] <x-f> the Habduino tracker code
[12:40] <mfa298> BalYOLO: when several people are telling you to look at the logtail it's because it's easy to use and will probably give you the answer quicker than asking on here!
[12:49] <daveake> Handy links before I quit: logtail http://habitat.habhub.org/logtail/
[12:49] <daveake> Source code: https://github.com/HABduino/HABduino
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[12:54] <BalYOLO> thank you dave
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[12:57] <LeoBodnar_> both should go constantly ON
[12:58] <LeoBodnar_> *random wrong screen error of the day
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[13:31] <eroomde> let us trim our hair in accordance with the socialist lifestyle
[13:32] <eroomde> to quote a north korean news agency
[13:33] <daveake> does that have any fringe benefits?
[13:33] <aadamson> LeoBodnar_, question of the day... on your pv setup, when you monitor the pv voltage via adc, do you need to put a voltage divider on it or is the free run voltage always less than a volt? Just not sure if the spv1040 puts enough of a load on it to keep the free run voltage in check of if a VD is needed?
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[13:37] <LeoBodnar_> i use 1 cell PVs so it's always < 0.7V
[13:39] <aadamson> yeah figured... thanks so no need for a Voltage divider on the input to the adc as the voltage is always less than vcc and or max pin voltage...
[13:39] <aadamson> thanks!
[13:40] <LeoBodnar_> however...
[13:40] <aadamson> yes?
[13:41] <fsphil> cliffhanger
[13:41] <aadamson> suspense is killing me :)
[13:41] <aadamson> drum roll please.....
[13:41] <LeoBodnar_> on a flight http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-21/ over Russia the solar power voltage shot up to 0.75V then payload detached and free-fell
[13:41] <fsphil> lasers
[13:42] <LeoBodnar_> you can only speculate what might have happened
[13:42] <aadamson> awesome defensive weapon!
[13:43] <aadamson> very interesting.... I'm betting thse foil balloon, present a pretty interesting radar return actually
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[13:45] <LeoBodnar_> i think what has happened is actually payload went into free-fall and this immediately cooled down PVs and the voltage shot up
[13:45] <aadamson> but them the occums razor approach would say... a) the balloon burst, the solar panels whipped around in the maylay, and you got one final response
[13:45] <aadamson> yup, agreed ^
[13:45] <LeoBodnar_> it wasn't free fall but about 10m/s descent so i'd say blown valve
[13:45] <LeoBodnar_> common failure mode with QUalatex balloons
[13:46] <LeoBodnar_> i had this happen before and payload temperature usually drops for -10C to -30C within a matter of seconds
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[13:47] <Joel_re> http://spectrum.ieee.org/aerospace/space-flight/titan-calling
[13:47] <Joel_re> unrelated, but nice read
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[13:49] <aadamson> one other quickie if I may LeoBodnar_ on the spv1040 circuit, there is a current limiting resistor that sets in the output path, across 2 pins on the spv, it measures the drop accross the resistor to limit the current to the output device. In the reference design that is a .01 ohm resistor... but in look at Upu's design he just used a 0 ohm resistor. which is more appropriate?
[13:50] <UpuWork> check data sheet but its just a current limiting
[13:50] <UpuWork> so depends what you're charging from
[13:50] <aadamson> pv to 1S
[13:51] <aadamson> same as you
[13:51] <aadamson> :)
[13:51] <UpuWork> if its just a solar cell you probably just need a 0
[13:51] <aadamson> the reference design is a pv to lipo as well and they give a formula for that resistor
[13:51] <aadamson> for a 3.95 (average output voltage) they recommend a .01 ohm resistor..... BUT, that's is probably close enough to 0 that it's not going to make any different
[13:52] <aadamson> difference and you guys have already proven that it works :)
[13:52] <aadamson> I was just curious
[13:53] <aadamson> http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/en/resource/technical/document/application_note/CD00292052.pdf
[13:53] <aadamson> for reference
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[13:59] <LeoBodnar_> i have used 0R because the charge current is naturally limited by the PV
[14:01] <aadamson> yeah, that's what I assumed you had done... I just like to understand things when I mess with them so I can characterize their outputs and I knew you all had used a 0ohm and I just just curious of the logic... thanks as always
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[14:14] <Chetic> has anybody tried using copper-tape for antenna ground plane?
[14:15] <eroomde> yes
[14:15] <Chetic> are there pictures of that?
[14:16] <Chetic> does it work better?
[14:16] <Chetic> than http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:payloadantenna
[14:16] <eroomde> better than what?
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[14:17] <eroomde> it works fine, all these things are just trying to approximate an infinitely big, flat ground plane
[14:17] <Chetic> I only have the one chance once I send it up
[14:17] <Chetic> I don't wanna lose contact in 5 minutes and never see it again
[14:18] <eroomde> you're worrying about the wrong things then
[14:18] <Chetic> alright
[14:18] <Chetic> what should I be worrying about?
[14:18] <eroomde> the ground plane is item 189673 on the sorted list of things to worry about
[14:18] <Chetic> lol
[14:18] <eroomde> just do what that guide says, it works, if you want low risk
[14:18] <Chetic> I enjoy discussing these things
[14:19] <eroomde> these guides are there to just let you do the basics in a low risk way
[14:19] <eroomde> to save people having to do lots of research themselves
[14:19] <eroomde> i'd worry about the code on your tracker
[14:19] <eroomde> or rather, i'd be thinking about all the ways to test it
[14:20] <Chetic> sounds sensible
[14:20] <Chetic> but I tend to worry about things I don't fully understand
[14:20] <eroomde> testing is what finds problems, it's much easier to achieve success by designing conservatively and testing loads than designing obsessively and not testing as much
[14:20] <Chetic> i.e. hardware
[14:20] <Joel_re> what are possible causes for baud rates to shift
[14:20] <mfa298> testing is the key thing which could include range testing the radio to check that it works at >200m
[14:20] <eroomde> yep sure, the RF stuff can seem like black magic at first, i understand
[14:21] <Joel_re> in my case, once in a while the baudrate goes below 50
[14:21] <eroomde> but, like i said, if low risk is your main constraint then i'd stick to known-working stuff (like that antenna guide) and test the bejezzus out of it
[14:21] <Joel_re> I thought it would be temp
[14:21] <Joel_re> but that doesnt seem i
[14:21] <Joel_re> it*
[14:21] <eroomde> Joel_re: software bugs, a dodgy crystal, maybe something else
[14:21] <Chetic> good overall tip eroomde
[14:21] <eroomde> Chetic: testing is all
[14:21] <Joel_re> hmm
[14:21] <eroomde> also good craftsmanship
[14:22] <eroomde> if a wire is nicked while stripping, start again
[14:22] <Chetic> not my strong suit
[14:22] <eroomde> stress relieve your connections
[14:22] <eroomde> don't use solid-core wire
[14:22] <eroomde> throw it down the strairs a few times
[14:22] <eroomde> Joel_re: how are yougenerating your time delays for sending tones?
[14:23] <Joel_re> eroomde: its a delay loop
[14:23] <eroomde> Chetic: yeah, good mechnical craftsmanship and wiremanship is important - it's so often about bad cables and connectors
[14:23] <eroomde> they seem to cause intermittent faults, which are the worst kind of fault
[14:23] <Joel_re> I should be using a timer interrupt
[14:23] <eroomde> yes :)
[14:23] <Joel_re> hmm
[14:24] <eroomde> interrupts are The Right Way to use microcontrollers and their peripherals, usually
[14:24] <eroomde> and especially in this case
[14:24] <Joel_re> hmm
[14:25] <Chetic> eroomde: I wish I could redo all my connections and solders
[14:25] <Chetic> it was my first time soldering (bad idea, yeayea)
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[14:26] <fsphil> I'm always critical of my own soldering, but I've never had it fail so far
[14:26] <fsphil> even if it is a bit ugly sometimes
[14:26] <eroomde> as if you use delay loops youcables are more likely failure points that pcb solder joints
[14:26] <Chetic> mine's a mess
[14:26] <eroomde> usually
[14:26] <eroomde> er
[14:26] <eroomde> fail
[14:26] <Chetic> I should probably show a picture and swallow the critique I get
[14:27] <eroomde> cables are more likely failure points that pcb solder joints
[14:27] <Chetic> I do have single-core...
[14:27] <eroomde> sure so
[14:27] <fsphil> cables into a PCB more so
[14:27] <eroomde> single core is a bad idea
[14:27] <fsphil> unless they're stuck down with a blob of something
[14:27] <fsphil> and have some relief
[14:27] <eroomde> takea pic
[14:27] <eroomde> we'll be nice
[14:27] <Chetic> I'll do that tonight
[14:27] <Chetic> heh
[14:28] <eroomde> sorry yes, single core if it is not fixed is bad
[14:28] <eroomde> it's ok if it's like a bodge wire on a pcb
[14:28] <fsphil> my antenna on my second flight was single core
[14:28] <fsphil> it failed :)
[14:28] <Chetic> :|
[14:28] <daveake> ditto
[14:28] Action: Chetic cries
[14:28] <daveake> use flexible coax - see the wiki
[14:28] <daveake> or flexible anything really, in a straw for support
[14:28] <eroomde> i have no flown solid core as an antenna
[14:28] <fsphil> I'm pretty sure he wire broke after launch
[14:29] <eroomde> i have however flown brass tubes
[14:29] <eroomde> on Spears of Death
[14:29] <daveake> mine broke during descent
[14:29] <eroomde> aka ukhas 1
[14:29] <eroomde> the metcal was happy to solder them together
[14:29] <Chetic> are you saying don't use singlecore even for antenna ground plane?
[14:30] <daveake> I do for that, but then it's taped down to a solid surface
[14:30] <Chetic> because that's what the guide recommends
[14:30] <Chetic> alright making sure
[14:30] <daveake> but multicore would be just fine
[14:30] <fsphil> I used a stranded core, but supported by a straw
[14:30] <Laurenceb__> ive always used coax
[14:30] <fsphil> coax for the main element, but using coax for the ground is just annoying :)
[14:31] <daveake> yup
[14:31] <daveake> cna't be doing with that
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[14:33] <LunarRover> Well, it's bad to go out not knowing that the Bus drivers are on strike
[14:33] <aadamson> I'm certainly the new kid on the block, but one of the biggest mistakes I see people make (short window of observation), is the thrill of the launch gets in the way of sound judgement... meaning that if there is anything amiss, weather, equipment, etc scratch and redo don't just do it because you have a window and a notam
[14:34] <aadamson> I have a personal limit when flying my airplane... *it is NEVER my only way of getting somewhere* the first time I allow that is the first time I'll make a serious mistake
[14:35] <aadamson> so specifically to the point.... Test, change, evolve, test.... repeat, do that until you know there are no issues, then do it again
[14:35] <aadamson> then maybe, you are ready... :)
[14:35] <LunarRover> You mean like the thing that someone lets the balloon snap upward and risking that the payload detaches?
[14:35] <aadamson> hehe... were you there?
[14:35] <aadamson> I only heard about it
[14:36] <LunarRover> I saw it on a launch nearby last year
[14:36] <LunarRover> On the news video
[14:37] <aadamson> ah... there was similar this past weekend in upstate NY, tether broke on launch
[14:37] <LunarRover> :-(
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[14:37] <aadamson> failed launch, instant successful recovery :(
[14:38] <aadamson> and with that, I need to go find a 1S lipo :)...
[14:38] <eroomde> aadamson: yes, some people do stupid things like letting go of the balloon when stuff isn't working
[14:38] <eroomde> or without checking it'd wrking
[14:38] <eroomde> there's little hope for such people
[14:38] <eroomde> it's rarely a problem with someone who'd made the whole system themselves
[14:39] <mfa298> for the people that know about chdk am I correct in thinking that in general the features that work in chdk depend only on the features in the camera (i.e. if chdk supports a feature it and the camera also supports it there's no difference which camera you use)
[14:39] <LunarRover> Like with us when our battery holder had deformed due to hot glue and the payload e
[14:40] <LunarRover> Sorry
[14:40] <LunarRover> Would not start
[14:40] <LunarRover> We allocated enough time for such mishaps
[14:41] <eroomde> mfa298: i haven't come across a circumstance where that wasn't the case, but i've not used a massive range of CHDKs
[14:41] <eroomde> only really the A5XX powershots
[14:42] <mfa298> eroomde: thanks, that seemed to be my impression when reading through the chdk stuff, just wanted to check i wasn't missing something obvious
[14:42] <LunarRover> Eroomde: I agree that the policy of ukhas that there are no off the shelf balloon computers being sold is a good one
[14:45] <LunarRover> HAB really requires the operator to know what he's doing
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[14:47] <eroomde> There is no such policy
[14:47] <eroomde> just browbeating from curmudgeons
[14:48] <LunarRover> Yes
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[14:50] <fsphil> there is no ukhas *jedi hand wave*
[14:53] <Laurenceb__> no theres a ukhas court and prison
[14:53] <Laurenceb__> on an offshore oil platform
[14:53] <eroomde> few people have been to ukhas prison
[14:53] <eroomde> some people have been banned
[14:53] <Laurenceb__> anyone selling trackers is abducted by balloon and dropped there
[14:54] <LunarRover> Oh
[14:55] <fiftdollarsat> I was reading the Ublox GPS data sheets and they give the impression that you can read the NMEA stream via DDC (I2C), anyone ever done it ?
[14:56] <daveake> yes, works fine, so long as you don;'t use a processor with broken i2c <cough> Pi <cough>
[14:57] <daveake> You /can/ then read different registers to find (e.g.) "number of characters in buffer", but the simplest is to keep reading the data register. You get oxFF if there's no data.
[15:01] <eroomde> which sounds like a red-nosed old duffer in a gentleman's club getting angry at a story he's reading in the telegraph
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[15:26] <fiftdollarsat> Oh, and CHDK is great for remote control of a camera from a micro.
[15:28] <fiftdollarsat> daveake: Thanks, it sounded like it implemented the I2C part as the equivalent of a UART with a circular background buffer
[15:29] <fiftdollarsat> but without the hassle of setting up a micro with interrupts and a background buffer.
[15:29] <fiftdollarsat> If you see what I mean .......
[15:30] <fiftdollarsat> So do people use the Ubloxes via I2C, or do they stick to tried and tested UART ?
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[15:31] <daveake> Almost everyone uses the UART
[15:32] <myself> daveake: so as long as there's no 0xFF in the data, that read-continuously strategy would work..
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[15:32] <daveake> Yes, if there's FF then wait or do something else
[15:33] <fiftdollarsat> And its a PICAXE not a Pi, the background receive from UART already works, but I was thinking getting the NMEA out of I2C would be quicker = less power.
[15:33] <fsphil> binary ubx packets should be safe enough
[15:33] <fsphil> you read until you get a header and payload size, then you know how many bytes remain
[15:34] <daveake> Yeah in my case I have NMEA code that works and I CBA coding up UBX :)
[15:34] <fsphil> I'm using ubx and I CBA doing I2C :)
[15:34] <daveake> haha :)
[15:34] <eroomde> I CBA
[15:34] <eroomde> maybe i need labview
[15:35] <fsphil> it'll imrpove your lif
[15:35] <eroomde> there'll be a driver for it
[15:35] Action: daveake checks eroomde's temperature
[15:35] <eroomde> for only £800/seat/yr
[15:35] Action: daveake plots eroomde's temperature in LABView
[15:35] <fsphil> on a pi?
[15:35] <eroomde> we were ultra polite to the reps this morning
[15:36] Action: daveake increases vertical scale
[15:36] <eroomde> but that was because you couldn't really say *anything* without being rude
[15:36] <eroomde> so i just sat and smiled sweetly and showed them our own in-house dataloggers
[15:36] <fiftdollarsat> One thing does puzzle me, given the amount of RAM these thing have, why dont they just plonk the latest NMEA string of each type into a known place in a buffer, easy to read out then ?
[15:36] <fsphil> "but other people buy our crap?"
[15:36] <eroomde> hahah yes
[15:36] <eroomde> 'so that's interesting, Moog and SSTL and Reaction Engines all use labview so..'
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[15:37] <eroomde> i asked him what to finish the sentence
[15:37] <eroomde> (the context being we work with all those 3)
[15:38] <eroomde> i think i said something about they hired lots of technicians who don't necessarily know how to program
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[15:53] <Laurenceb__> so google thinks im a bot
[15:53] <Laurenceb__> captcha is "mammon"
[15:54] <eroomde> gotta worship it
[15:55] <Laurenceb__> yesterday it banned me all day
[15:55] <Laurenceb__> im sure someone at google is trolling me
[15:56] <eroomde> from what is it banning you?
[15:56] <Laurenceb__> google search
[15:56] <Laurenceb__> i could still see google plus
[15:57] <Laurenceb__> "you appear to be running automated search queries"
[15:59] <fsphil> I had that a few months ago
[15:59] <eroomde> something else on your ip?
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[16:00] <fsphil> from a static IP that only I use
[16:00] <Laurenceb__> yeah same here
[16:00] <fsphil> all I could think of was either an error, or they block by subnet
[16:00] <fsphil> or I really do look like a bot to google
[16:03] <eroomde> not enough entropy in your bitz
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[16:03] <enkidu> Laurenceb__: do you have some kind of router?
[16:05] <Laurenceb__> dunno
[16:06] <Laurenceb__> business park lan stuff...
[16:06] <enkidu> business park. explains a lot
[16:09] <mfa298> question would be do you have a routable IP or is it one of the rfc1918 ranges (10/8, 172.16/??, 192.168/16)
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[16:10] <sp2ipt> hi there
[16:12] <fsphil> evening
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[16:20] <tsconter> Good evening. Does anyone know what happened to SP3OSJ. Is it still transmitting?
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[16:23] <x-f> ah, so there was a flight today
[16:23] <x-f> tsconter, most likely it just stopped transmitting, his payloads tend to do that :/
[16:25] <enkidu> I will make some payloads in summer or late spring, now I have no money to launch. However, I will have medical grade components
[16:26] <sp2ipt> tsconter good question - OSJ gave notice about going up while I was still at work and couldn't connect SDR to the antenna, when I finally came back home didn't get a single trace of signal :/
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[16:31] <DL7AD> good afternoon
[16:33] <tsconter> I had some fine signals from SP3OSJ payload some time ago - DJ3AK here btw - forgot how to change nickname :-(
[16:33] <daveake> /nick ....
[16:33] <Maxell> tsconter: use /nick DJ3AK
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[16:33] <daveake> obtuse I know :p
[16:34] Nick change: tsconter -> DJ3AK
[16:34] <DJ3AK> tnx :-)
[16:34] <Maxell> :d
[16:34] <sp2ipt> DJ3AK: me too, last 2 or 3 times nothing. First thought it was because of _big_ qrm on 70cm here but that's not it
[16:36] <DJ3AK> sp2ipt late Nov. 13 the signals were excellent here... hope for some more
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[17:10] <malgar> I would like to know the biggest HAB allowed without NOTAM in the various countries
[17:11] <malgar> in italy there isn't a thresold.. virtually you would need a NOTAM even for a small party balloon without payload
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[17:11] <eroomde> sounds like a job for...
[17:11] <eroomde> malgar!
[17:11] <myself> that'd be an interesting set of data to gather and post somewhere
[17:11] <eroomde> go forth and researchify
[17:11] <myself> preferably a wiki or something so people could maintain it
[17:12] <malgar> how is in uk?
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[17:13] Nick change: number10_ -> number10
[17:13] <eroomde> no single linear dimension can exceed 2m at any point in the flight (in the UK)
[17:13] <eroomde> equally i suspect their jurisdiction for that stops at 60,000ft
[17:13] <SIbot> In real units: 60,000 ft = 18 km
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[17:14] <Laurenceb__> sqrt(-1) ft
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[17:17] <mfa298> wiki you say (/me checks link in /topic) :p
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[17:18] <sp2ipt> Laurenceb__: u'd be suprised to read 1j ft http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMeIeYq7Bdw ;)
[17:22] <Laurenceb__> http://s1.b3ta.com/host/creative/94313/1395796670/bnsqa.jpg
[17:24] <daveake> malgar and when you've finished that, a list of allowed frequencies/powers airborne with/without a ham licence
[17:24] <daveake> Should keep you busy :)
[17:26] <malgar> :D
[17:27] <myself> that sounds like one of those "trivial tasks" like maintaining zoneinfo, which turns into a life-consuming obsession
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[18:03] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
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[18:29] <DL7AD> Lunar_Lander: kuckuck :)
[18:29] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:29] <DL7AD> i was first :D
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[18:36] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[18:58] <Lunar_Lander> hi dave and leo
[18:59] <pinet> test
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[20:27] <tweetBot> @NORB_HAB: Read about NORB 4. My latest tracker to kick off NORB's brand new HAB series ;-) http://t.co/yq89JR6fea #ukhas
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[21:44] <aadamson> drats, dont you hate it, when you are about to build a new board and you realize you forgot to order the inductors from mouser - everything else came from digikey... darn it
[21:47] <Upu> thats normal
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> :(
[21:48] <g0pai_ian> Certainly delays with the components lying about ready doesn't help the concentration as you wait for that elusive one to turn up. A great opportunity for the component fairys to steal away bits.
[21:48] <aadamson> yeah it was funny too, I was thinking... I have everything cuz I ordered more than I needed when I built my test boards... NOT :(
[21:49] <aadamson> oh, well, as it turns out I ordered a new j-tag debugger and the stm32f429disco with 3.2 lcd just cuz ya can :)
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[21:50] <aadamson> g0pai_ian, I have lots of other things to do in the mean time... software is up on the eval boards, I need to look at power supplies, I built both a tps61200 and a ltc3526l version and I want to characterize both
[21:51] <aadamson> along with the pv/usb/solar controller
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[21:51] <aadamson> all of those are built and functional ready for testing
[21:51] <g0pai_ian> Better than 50% of what I order turns up when the distaff side isn't about, so I get a bit of ordering headroom . . . :-) Too many different projects here is a route to non-completion
[21:52] <aadamson> hehe I know that feeling too well!
[21:52] <g0pai_ian> the circular buffer shrinks a little each year, believe me!
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[21:53] <g0pai_ian> I had to smile this morning with the antics. Dave must have been biting his knuckles a lot . . . spoon feeding extreme - on the expectation side at least!
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[22:18] <Willdude> Picked up all of 1959s issues of Wireless world
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[22:25] <mfa298> 50+ year old radio magazines - sounds like some good bonfire starting material
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[23:08] Action: craag is back from fixing GDP...
[23:08] Action: craag needs some eye bleach
[23:08] Action: mikestir is back from talking to WADARC about HAB. no one complained about repeater interference
[23:09] <adamgreig> why would they
[23:09] <mikestir> some of them do
[23:09] <craag> Yeah I got asked about it at my hab talk
[23:10] <craag> "Really??? with 10mw?? How much power do you run?" and they were quiet.
[23:11] <mikestir> there is definitely enthusiasm for a high-gain downlink. The club has an az-el rotator and various 13cm dishes and there are a number of guys into microwave stuff.
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[23:14] <mfa298> maybe someone should complain about the F1A (possibly) interference we get as ISM users :p
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[23:15] kuldeepdhaka (~kuldeepdh@unaffiliated/kuldeepdhaka) left irc: Quit: gone to fetch temporary death ;)
[23:22] <amell> downlink? thinking that an uplink is necessary seeing as downlinks dont have sufficient coverage for Leobodnar.
[23:23] <mikestir> I'm thinking more for live video type applications
[23:23] <Geoff-G8DHE> WADARC craag ? Worthing ? or is there another ? I thought it was EGM tonight
[23:23] <mikestir> wirral
[23:23] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah makes sense!
[23:23] <amell> 5.8Ghz video downlink?
[23:24] <mikestir> straight analogue video doesn't have the link budget
[23:24] <mikestir> nowhere near
[23:24] <amell> doesnt project loon use 5.8Ghz?
[23:25] <mikestir> presumably not under ISM restrictions
[23:26] <mfa298> I thought loon was going for the spaces inbetween tv channels (not that I've looked at it for ages)
[23:27] <amell> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Loon
[23:27] <amell> 100 days alo
[23:27] <amell> afloat
[23:27] <amell> hmm
[23:29] <fsphil> long enough to go around the hemisphere a few times
[23:30] <amell> what options exist for telemetry satellite relay?
[23:32] <fsphil> rockblock seems very nice
[23:32] <fsphil> it's two-way and seems to work well
[23:32] <mikestir> is that iridium?
[23:32] <fsphil> if not a bit slow
[23:32] <fsphil> not sure actually
[23:33] <fsphil> yes
[23:33] <amell> http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/0004036.pdf
[23:33] <amell> picos communicating with satellite would be quite a challenge i fear
[23:34] <mikestir> could do argos
[23:34] <mikestir> but that's expensive
[23:34] <fsphil> yes those things are tiny
[23:34] <amell> anyone tried this before?
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[23:36] <SA6BSS> lightweight and good batt life http://www.liveviewgps.com/worldwide+gps+satellite+tracker.html
[23:37] <amell> http://rockblock.rock7mobile.com/case-study-hab.php
[23:40] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
[23:40] Lunar_Lander (~kevin@p548896C0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) left irc: Quit: Verlassend
[23:46] <Laurenceb> mikestir: i couldnt get any useful info from any of the UK argos contacts :-/
[23:47] <Laurenceb> seems you need to be part of an established group to use it
[00:00] --- Thu Mar 27 2014