highaltitude.log.20140307

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[07:05] <g0pai_ian>
[07:06] <g0pai_ian> What sensors for external temperature, given DS18B20 extends only to -40C?
[07:07] <g0pai_ian>
[07:19] <natrium42>
[07:19] <natrium42> there are some on digikey that go from -55C
[07:19] <natrium42>
[07:20] <natrium42> but you can probably run them below the spec anyway
[07:20] <natrium42>
[07:38] <fsphil>
[07:38] <fsphil> Morning all
[07:38] <fsphil>
[07:39] <UpuWork> morning
[07:42] <UpuWork> seems a bit wet for a pico launch today
[07:42] <UpuWork> he's only 30 miles from here and its peeing it down
[07:42] <fsphil> sunshine here. it might reach there in time
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[08:54] <DL1SGP> good morning :-)
[08:56] <craag> morning!
[08:58] <SpeedEvil> ing
[08:59] <daveake> morn
[09:00] <mfa298> tgif
[09:04] <fsphil> yaaaay
[09:08] <g0pai_ian> Thanks Natrium4. I'll have a look to see what sensor technology will fit at -55C on Digikey. I guess it will be quite different to that of the DS18B20 which talks to me.
[09:12] <SpeedEvil> doesnt' have to be that different
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[09:12] <SpeedEvil> http://www.maximintegrated.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/7953
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[09:13] <SpeedEvil> A bit expensive annoyingly
[09:15] <g0pai_ian> Tnx SpeedEvil, but the spec still only goes to -40. What do you guys tend to use, personally and generally?
[09:15] <SpeedEvil> err - it goes to -270C
[09:16] <g0pai_ian> I don't suppose that you make it up? :-)
[09:17] <craag> In a daylight flight you probably won't see anything below -40, so a ds18b20 tends to work fine.
[09:17] <SpeedEvil> I've used a thermocouple in the past for measuring temperatures that low. The maxim part does look like an almost drop-in-replacement for the ds18b20 though
[09:17] <SpeedEvil> http://archives.sensorsmag.com/articles/0102/29/main.shtml - also
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[09:20] <g0pai_ian> Maybe I had confused operating temperature with measurement temperature. I will investigate further, thanks.
[09:20] <g0pai_ian> For Pressure BMP180 (BMP85)?
[09:21] <craag> Also ds18b20 does to -55
[09:22] <craag> Which is more than enough for a daylight flight (solar heating means you'll probably see -20, maybe -30 if the sensor is well set up.
[09:23] <g0pai_ian> I like it when the answers get nearer to my expectations Phil. . . . So not a bad idea to test with DS18B20 and consider moving up and checking out the Maxim part. I have a slack handfull of DS18B20
[09:24] <g0pai_ian> Is solar heating a double edged sword with the internals or do you seek to avoid it at times, No dark coverings?
[09:24] <daveake> I was looking at a temp plot from a flight last night. Lowest was -45 during the fall when, I assume, the wind going past helps cool the sensor much closer to the actual air temperature.
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[09:24] <SpeedEvil> It rarely gets that hot
[09:24] <g0pai_ian> That's good to know.
[09:25] <daveake> Lowest recorded on the way up was -35
[09:26] <daveake> http://imgur.com/lopisnX
[09:26] <g0pai_ian> Thanks Dave. Glad also to know that you are an AWK fan!. Loved it, just the job for chopping up text fields etc and munging reports from logs.
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[09:51] <g0pai_ian> craag* thanks again. I rechecked the DS18B20 spec and seems that it's good to go. Don't know where I got the idea that it was good to -40, but have never had to think too much about the negative range before. It certainly sounds the easiest solution and one that I'm passably familiar with.
[09:52] Nick change: davo_ -> davo
[09:53] <g0pai_ian> ALSO: I have to concede that I was wrong about the CEPT licencing issue and the privileges are what the host country allow, not governed by the T&C of your UK licence. Estonia is good to go if you can carve it up into 9 regions for callsign prefix variants. :-)
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[10:00] <craag> g0pai_ian: No worries, good to hear we haven't been breaking the law all this time :)
[10:00] <gonzo_> anything from the yorkshire pico team?
[10:01] <craag> Balloon is on the map
[10:01] <gonzo_> we would be breaking the law in a foriegn country. Can't see us being extrodited for that!
[10:01] <mjholmes> just launched mjh-1
[10:01] <craag> woo!
[10:01] <mjholmes> it's a bit gusty up here
[10:02] <gonzo_> what??? launche on time!
[10:02] <mjholmes> batt voltage is still reading low but didntr have time to diagnose it this morning
[10:02] <gonzo_> that's not the way its traditionally done
[10:02] <mjholmes> yeah, amazing gap in the rain!
[10:03] <fsphil> making us all look bad ;)
[10:03] <mjholmes> i'll try harder to be late next time :)
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[10:04] <mjholmes> just lost visual contact
[10:06] navrac_work (545c0e05@gateway/web/freenode/ip.84.92.14.5) joined #highaltitude.
[10:07] <UpuWork> RX @ 300 m :)
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[10:08] <mjholmes> that's impressive
[10:10] <craag> Slightly surprised rob hasn't got it yet
[10:14] <G8APZ> Is Snus buggered again? (no panels on right....)
[10:14] <craag> fine for me
[10:14] <gonzo_> give the page a represh
[10:15] <craag> If you're having trouble though, try this: http://habmap.philcrump.co.uk/
[10:15] <G8APZ> I just loaded it three times... Firefox , but I use http://habmap.philcrump.co.uk/?filter=MJH-1 anyway...
[10:16] <gonzo_> FF here too. No panes toll I refreshed it
[10:16] <craag> G8APZ: ?filter doesn't work on that
[10:16] <craag> It's ?vehicles=
[10:16] <gonzo_> shame that this hab probably won't be rx-able down by me
[10:17] <Geoff-G8DHE> Listening here but very much doubt that I will hear it
[10:18] <gonzo_> even if the s'ton crew get it, my local horizon is poor that way
[10:18] <G8APZ> FF and XP - refresh doesn't change it either!
[10:19] <G8APZ> I'll stick with habmap.philcrump.co.uk
[10:19] <navrac_work> from the changing altitude it looks like its either raining or its pretty windy in york at the moment
[10:19] <G8APZ> Height profile looking odd
[10:20] <mjholmes> prety wind with occasional showerrs - not idea
[10:20] <mjholmes> although blue sky and bright sun behind me.
[10:22] <LeoBodnar> has MJH-1 been rained on?
[10:23] <mjholmes> i think so. that's what you get for launcing on time...perfect conditions now!
[10:23] <navrac_work> it has got that look to it. pico's do seem to be very vulnerable during the first 1000 feet
[10:23] <SIbot1> In real units: 1000 ft = 305 m
[10:23] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2014_Flights/MJH-1_20140307/index.php?ind=1
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[10:24] <navrac_work> metres even
[10:24] <navrac_work> wheres imperialbot when you need some backup
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[10:28] <G8APZ> car tyres are sized in inches!
[10:28] <G8APZ> as is/was computer tape
[10:29] <g0pai_ian> ? MJH-1 frequency please?
[10:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> 434.650 nominal
[10:30] <g0pai_ian> Tnx
[10:30] <LeoBodnar> QIC
[10:31] <LeoBodnar> sounds better that 6.35MC
[10:33] <daveake> For a while in Ireland, road distance signs had been changed to km but speed limit signs were still in mph
[10:35] <navrac_work> I'm that age where I'm sort of unitdextrous - which annoys metalworkers enormously as on sketches I'll use both units according to what feels right for the measurement.
[10:36] <SpeedEvil> Way more likely to make errors in complex stuff if you mix units.
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[10:37] <navrac_work> I didnt say it was a good habit
[10:37] <G8APZ> Steam loco restoration in UK can't be metric
[10:38] <navrac_work> the most annoying thing is I can read backwards as well as i can read forwards - so glass doors with pull/push etc catch me out all the time
[10:39] <G8APZ> :-))))
[10:39] <SpeedEvil> (:
[10:40] <fsphil> G8APZ: I get that firefox/spacenear thing quite a lot. it will eventually refresh properly
[10:40] <daveake> So you're really carvan_work?
[10:40] <navrac_work> happened last week going into an antique shop - sign said cabinets through door to the left... spent ages scratching my head cos i couldnt find the door
[10:41] <daveake> lol
[10:41] <navrac_work> well I've got a 4x4 thats a bit of a carvan
[10:41] <G8APZ> fsphil It's pretty flaky... I must try it on Opera or Chrome
[10:41] <fsphil> it's been like this since google updated the maps api
[10:42] <G8APZ> Chrome works first time...
[10:43] <fsphil> because google :)
[10:43] <navrac_work> no receiving for me today - I made the mast 3m longer and forgot to order the new feeder at the same time
[10:43] <fsphil> d'oh
[10:43] <fsphil> I doubt this will get high enough for me
[10:44] <G8APZ> Opera works fine too
[10:44] <fsphil> opera uses google renderer
[10:44] <fsphil> it's basically a theme for chrome
[10:47] <G8APZ> fsphil Google maps api should be same javascript interface from FF as in Opera and Chrome....
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[10:56] <UpuWork> really 16.6'C at 2.3km
[10:56] <fsphil> that can't be right
[10:56] <UpuWork> unless the sensor is in the sun
[10:56] <G8APZ> Temperature inversion?
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[10:59] <mjholmes> there's a bit of tape around the tracker but no insulation. it's a DS18B20
[11:14] <Oddstr13> probably correct then
[11:14] Nick change: Guest36519 -> Steffanx
[11:14] <Oddstr13> if you get something like 85 on the other hand :P
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[11:15] <craag> ... your battery is on fire?
[11:15] <SpeedEvil> 85 is some sor of protocol error
[11:15] <craag> ah yes I remember now
[11:15] <Oddstr13> yep
[11:16] <craag> I built some wrapper functions to handle that a while ago and haven't seen it since.
[11:16] <Oddstr13> hehe
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[11:17] <Oddstr13> if crc is faulty, or the temperature is 85, drop it as bad data :P
[11:17] <DL1SGP> Guten Tag Lunar_LanderU
[11:18] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[11:18] <Oddstr13> is MJH-1 a floater?
[11:18] <craag> Hopefully yes
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[11:20] <Lunar_LanderU> back
[11:20] <Lunar_LanderU> and almost lunch time :)
[11:20] <cm13g09> yes, the 1-wire DS18B20 suffers from the "85C feature"
[11:21] <cm13g09> (as the OWFS guys call it)
[11:21] <Oddstr13> hm.. do you guys think that balloon might go over norway?
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[11:25] <Oddstr13> in which case, i should *probably* attempt to build myself an antenna
[11:26] Nick change: davo -> Guest43421
[11:32] <mjholmes> depending on how much altitude it gains, and how quickly it looks like it might swing past the eastern edge of norway
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[11:35] <G8APZ> Got weak sigs here just before the 0 circle on map reached me... not decodable yet but visible on waterfall
[11:37] <edusupport> Does anybody know of an i2c humidity sensor that works with the RasPi
[11:38] <G8APZ> decodes starting,, should get a good one soon!
[11:38] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/htu21d-humidity-sensor-breakout.html?gclid=CITM1f-qgL0CFYMSwwod5z0Akw#.
[11:41] <Joel_re> cm13g09: what do you mean by the 85C feature?
[11:41] <Joel_re> how do TMP36 or the LMxx fare?
[11:42] <fsphil> the DS sensor reports 85C as an error code
[11:43] <Joel_re> I dumped the Dallas sensor cause I got annoyed trying to get the 1wire timming to work
[11:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its the power on reset value
[11:43] <Joel_re> s/annoyed/tired
[11:43] <fsphil> I quite liked 1-wire
[11:43] <fsphil> I liked the way it scans for devices
[11:44] <Joel_re> my first impression of it was horrible, I was trying to have the uC run at 1Mhz
[11:44] <Joel_re> and getting the timming right was such a mesm
[11:44] <gonzo_> addressing multiple one wire divices on is fun
[11:44] <Joel_re> but it was just me being a noob
[11:44] <Joel_re> and my inexperience
[11:47] <tweetBot> @daveake: New and slightly "different" HAB video ... http://t.co/u7sw9mT6mA #UKHAS
[11:47] <Oddstr13> http://www.instructables.com/id/Indoors-Fractal-HDTV-Antenna/?ALLSTEPS <-- what do you guys think about this antenna? :P
[11:49] <craag> Aww where did my interview go
[11:49] <craag> THere's about 0.75s of the boot of my car in that, but that's it.
[11:49] <SpeedEvil> They love your booty?
[11:49] <G8APZ> Oddstr13 It will probably work as well as a wire coathanger!
[11:50] <craag> hah
[11:51] <gonzo_> I was just about to say the same
[11:52] <UpuWork> 12 satellites on a chip antenna
[11:52] <gonzo_> no info on the design or simulations
[11:52] <edusupport> Thanks Geoff-G8DHE I have just found the code
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[11:52] <Joel_re> does anyone with the chip antenna get a fix indoors?
[11:52] <Oddstr13> G8APZ: well.. you'd rather recommend a random wire antenna then? :P
[11:53] <gonzo_> depends on what you wnat it for
[11:53] <G8APZ> Oddstr13 any random bit of wire or metal will pick up a signal of sorts.... a good antenna will be resonant at the frequency you want,
[11:54] <Oddstr13> G8APZ: got any easy to make antennas that resonates at 434.650 MHz? :P
[11:54] <mjholmes> i've been impressed with the chip antennas. this is a MAX-7C
[11:55] <gonzo_> a simple dipole or ground plane vertical
[11:56] <G8APZ> Oddstr13 make a ground plane from a piece of co-ax or make a co-linear from coax.... Google will help
[11:56] <daveake> craag Sorry, dunno!
[11:56] <gonzo_> coaxial colinears are not that easy to tget to work
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[11:56] <gonzo_> I've had so many failures over the years
[11:56] <Oddstr13> i don't really have much coax available tho :/
[11:58] <Oddstr13> i do however have a lot of CAT5 :P
[11:58] <craag> daveake: No worries, I don't do so well so well talking to cameras and so I knew at the time it wouldn't make it in. I was quite surprised they asked tbh!
[11:59] <craag> Was good fun, thanks again for letting us tag along.
[12:00] <G8APZ> Looks as if MJH-1 is not climbing fast enough to overcome it going away from me.. I'll probably get no decodes this flight
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[12:11] <craag> Display of satellites, display and graphing of battery voltage added to habmap.
[12:12] <Geoff-G8DHE> It grows all the time ;-)
[12:13] <cm13g09> craag: you have too much free time :P
[12:14] <craag> cm13g09: Well farnell have screwed up, so I have PCBs arrived today, but nowt to put on them. :(
[12:14] <Darkside> craag: thanks for the fcdctl servr stuff :P
[12:15] <Darkside> not that i'm using th server part of it, but i'm using the ctypes idea
[12:15] <craag> Oh cool!
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[12:15] <Darkside> writing a bit of code to monitor signal power over a long period
[12:17] Action: craag re-reads the code so he knows what he's talking about..
[12:18] <craag> Oh right, what's that for?
[12:18] <craag> Propagation monitoring?
[12:18] <Darkside> yeah
[12:18] <craag> Awesome
[12:18] <Darkside> looking for disturbance signatures
[12:19] <craag> There was interest in a large UK group of deploying a reverse-beacon network of beacon-monitoring sdrs.
[12:19] <Darkside> yup
[12:19] <craag> For microwave
[12:19] <Darkside> oh nice
[12:19] <Darkside> yeah thats doable
[12:19] <Darkside> theres been discussion about doing that here
[12:19] <Darkside> on 10GHz
[12:19] <gonzo_> especially with the cheap pll LNB's that are available now
[12:20] <craag> They really wanted the rtlsdr+pi combo, and when that looked a bit hard to do (because of cpu issues at the time), it died out.
[12:20] <craag> Yes 10ghz here as well
[12:20] <craag> We've jsut added 10ghz to the websdr
[12:20] <craag> With one of the octagon LNBs
[12:20] <Darkside> mm this would have been with a FCD i think
[12:21] <craag> Yeah FCD makes a lot more sense, jsut is a little pricier
[12:21] <craag> Not that money was an issue, but it caused an argument.
[12:21] <gonzo_> I have one of those lnbs on the dish here, but planning move it up to a mast, just usiong the feed horn
[12:22] <Darkside> what LNB is this?
[12:22] <Darkside> link?
[12:23] <craag> One of the ideas was to create battery+solar boxes, that powered on a pi for a few minutes every now and then, to record the signal strength from various beacons, and then transmit the results via APRS.
[12:23] <Darkside> http://www.octagoneurope.co.uk/cart/index.php?l=product_list&c=4
[12:23] <Darkside> what the frack.. how is that so cheap
[12:23] <gonzo_> http://www.g4jnt.com/PLL_LNB_Tests.pdf
[12:24] <gonzo_> make sure you get an OTLSO. There are others on their site that say PLL, but are dro
[12:24] <craag> These boxes could then be put up on church towers with a simple antenna or two, aiding widespread deployment.
[12:24] <gonzo_> I have a couple of ocxo's on 27MHz, so can replace the LO in those LNB's
[12:25] <craag> They also take 27MHz? in, which a lot of people use to GPS-lock them
[12:25] <gonzo_> the internal ref osc is a bit drifty at switchj on
[12:26] <gonzo_> I tried making some filters to allow me to put the 27meg ref up the F type. But there is not a lot of space in there
[12:26] <craag> This is the one on the websdr with the slotted-waveguide antenna: http://www.suws.org.uk/images/5/57/WebSDR_Bare_10GHz_antenna%2BLNB.JPG
[12:27] <gonzo_> they are tru dual LNBs. So you could take two feeds out and hav separate H and V. Not sure if that could vive any useful info
[12:27] <fsphil> I've a couple of unused satellite LNBs if anyone wants them
[12:27] <craag> It's then been wrapped tightly in foam to insulate it, and put in a plastic drainpipe: http://www.suws.org.uk/images/6/63/WebSDR_10GHz_Antenna_Packaged.JPG
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[12:30] <gonzo_> those octagon units are suprisingly sensitive too
[12:30] <gonzo_> one of the locals did a qso with one, open feed horn
[12:31] <craag> Yeah, one into an rtlsdr, on an omni antenna, can often get the cheltenham beacon via rainscatter
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[12:31] <Darkside> hrm
[12:31] <Darkside> i dont see the OTLSO on that site
[12:31] <gonzo_> and txed to the remote station with a few mW beacon source into a pcb built horn, keying it by waving a hand in front of the horn
[12:31] <craag> haha gonzo_
[12:31] <fsphil> nice
[12:32] <gonzo_> there some on ebay at the mo
[12:33] <Darkside> link?
[12:33] <gonzo_> 281028691994
[12:34] <Darkside> mmk
[12:35] <cuddykid> wind conditions look the best they have been in a few months middle-end of next week here, might launch
[12:36] <cm13g09> craag: ping
[12:36] <gonzo_> plenty other LNB's if you look for 'pll lnb' on fleabay
[12:36] <fsphil> is it simple enough to power an LNB while feeding the signal into an FCD?
[12:37] <Darkside> yeah, bias tee
[12:37] <gonzo_> just phantom feed 12V up the coax (and decouple the FCD!)
[12:37] <fsphil> simple cap enough to decouple?
[12:37] <gonzo_> 12V selects the correct band
[12:38] <gonzo_> yep, and feed the 12V in via an indictor, to stop the rf gatting back out to the psu
[12:38] <Darkside> fsphil: you can get bias te PCBs
[12:38] <Darkside> tee*
[12:38] <Darkside> which hav the right traces, caps, inductors, tc
[12:39] <fsphil> will have a lookie when I get home
[12:39] <Darkside> http://www.minikits.com.au/electronic-kits/bias-tee/RX-Bias-Tee
[12:39] <fsphil> no idea what I'd use it for, I've no 10ghz sources
[12:39] <fsphil> but could be interesting
[12:39] <gonzo_> you will be suprised how many 10ghz beacons come up when there is a bit of rain ablut
[12:40] <fsphil> which is often!
[12:40] <gonzo_> hehe
[12:40] <gonzo_> pjm here has seen three beacons from around the uk, from inside his workshop, when there is heavy rain
[12:45] <Darkside> apparently there is a path from albany, in WA, to adelaide
[12:45] <Darkside> thats quite common
[12:45] <Darkside> not sure what the distance is
[12:45] <Darkside> but its a fair bit
[12:45] <gonzo_> MJH-1 is looking floaty!
[12:46] <Darkside> 1500km
[12:46] <gonzo_> that would take a bit of ducting. Could be a bit much for rainscatter!
[12:46] <G8APZ> MJH-1 is about to run out of trackers!
[12:46] <mjholmes> yeah, i've lost it due to some local qrm that stated up about 20mins ago :(
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[12:47] <G8APZ> Rainscatter max on 10GHz is about 800km
[12:47] <mjholmes> there are some people launching cansats down the road form a helikite but i'd been told they were not using anything near 434.650. might not be them
[12:48] <G8APZ> mjholmes I had a bit of QRM as the sigs became almost decodable... series of blips for about 5 minutes then it stopped.
[12:49] <gonzo_> we've seen 1000km+ with ducting and S9+ signals
[12:50] <G8APZ> gonzo quite possible but rare!
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[12:50] <G8APZ> Back later
[12:51] Nick change: Lunar_Lander -> Lunar_Lab
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[12:54] <fsphil> 800km rain scatter is impressive. that would just be enough for me to hear a signal from the north west coast of france
[12:54] <fsphil> so who's going to do the first 10ghz hab tracker? :)
[12:56] <gonzo_> make the balloon big enoyugh, just yuse it as a passive reflector
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[12:56] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Dish alignment could be fun ;-)
[12:56] <gonzo_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Echo
[12:56] <gonzo_> If you could have a one side silvered foil balloon, that could be the dish!
[12:57] <craag> Is there an ISM band around 10ghz?
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[13:06] <fsphil> nah, goes from 868 to 2.4ghz
[13:06] <fsphil> oh wait, 10 not 1
[13:06] <fsphil> there is one at 5.7ghz
[13:07] <craag> That's 5ghz wifi..
[13:07] <fsphil> 25mw, woo
[13:07] <fsphil> they probably kept ism devices well away from the satellite broadcast bands
[13:08] <fsphil> wonder when we'll start seeing 24ghz wifi
[13:11] <UpuWork> MJH-1 done ok
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[13:11] <UpuWork> ETA to Brian 5 hours
[13:12] <fsphil> still a bit bouncy
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[13:17] <Babs____> Ping upu
[13:18] <UpuWork> if this is code question leave a message after the beep
[13:18] <UpuWork> *beep*
[13:18] <Babs____> It's not !
[13:18] <Babs____> It's a code solution
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[13:19] <fsphil> /* TODO: Fix code */
[13:19] <Babs____> all that was wrong in the code yesterday is that I wasn't serial printing using a hex argument
[13:19] <mjholmes> thanks for the help tracking today folks, i'm quite pleased with how the luanch went for a first foil balloon
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[13:19] <fsphil> yes going rather well mjholmes
[13:20] <mjholmes> need to do some power saving work and then look into ntx2b/domex
[13:20] <UpuWork> mjholmes whats the battery life ?
[13:20] <UpuWork> oh cool Babs____ thx :)
[13:21] <mjholmes> at the min 10hrs TXing constantly. i reckon i can get close to doubling that
[13:21] <Babs____> Did it, solved it. Felt like a programming god.
[13:21] <Babs____> Well, god is a bit strong
[13:21] <UpuWork> lol
[13:22] <UpuWork> find suitable image here and post : http://devopsreactions.tumblr.com/
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[13:23] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[13:23] <fsphil> lol, the clarkson one
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[13:25] <mfa298> I can just imagine a voice from wallace and gromit on that clarkson one
[13:29] <eroomde> http://devopsreactions.tumblr.com/post/78534868650/git-push-force
[13:29] <eroomde> this is wonderful
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[13:30] <LeoBodnar> Upu: boxed goodies http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/GPS-clock-USB.jpg http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/GPS-clock-RF.jpg
[13:31] <LeoBodnar> I have tested it yesterday to 450MHz
[13:31] <UpuWork> tidy
[13:31] <UpuWork> gief
[13:31] <LeoBodnar> It won't be CMOS levels at that frequency but it is good signal still
[13:32] <UpuWork> nice
[13:33] <eroomde> i have pics of hardware too!
[13:33] <eroomde> these just arrived
[13:33] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/82kb81txh4ceby4/2014-03-07%2012.55.50.jpg
[13:33] <eroomde> 4 of them for moving the valves
[13:33] <fsphil> oranges!
[13:33] <UpuWork> half eaten orange for scale ?
[13:34] <eroomde> yes for scale
[13:34] <nats`> it's lie it's not an orange !
[13:35] <nats`> it's a clementine
[13:35] <nats`> half the size :D
[13:35] <LeoBodnar> eroomde: haha I have 4 of them next door :D
[13:35] <LeoBodnar> is it Parker?
[13:35] <eroomde> yep!
[13:36] <eroomde> and a 15kW servo
[13:36] <LeoBodnar> i have slightly smaller profile, 70cm square? this is probably 120 model
[13:36] <LeoBodnar> it can lift about a tonne from memory
[13:37] <LeoBodnar> fantastic stuff
[13:37] <LeoBodnar> i want one too!
[13:37] <LeoBodnar> Kollmorgen AKM motor
[13:37] <LeoBodnar> nice
[13:38] <LeoBodnar> This looks like AKM size 6
[13:38] <eroomde> it's about 30kN peak and 1m/s
[13:38] <LeoBodnar> do you use AKD drives to drive them?
[13:39] <eroomde> i forget the drives
[13:39] <mattbrejza> persumably powered from those chunky 3 phase power sockets?
[13:39] <eroomde> it's like 0.001% of the state i have in my head for this project
[13:39] <eroomde> the valves they're driving are beasingly compliucated
[13:39] <eroomde> alan bond (had a meeting with him all morning) said he thought the valves were awesome
[13:39] <eroomde> so i am well pleased
[13:39] <LeoBodnar> Parker linear actuators are fantastic
[13:39] <eroomde> (not that i can take the credit for the whole design)
[13:40] <LeoBodnar> they do more than 1G acceleration
[13:40] <eroomde> we actually have exlar ones for somerthing else
[13:40] <eroomde> they're very much sexier
[13:40] <eroomde> but very much more expensive
[13:40] <eroomde> the parker stuff is good value if size/mass is not such a constraint
[13:40] <LeoBodnar> so if you put an actuator rod down it retracts it before falling down
[13:40] <LeoBodnar> it's fun to watch
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[14:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> Object movie for MJH-1 to day http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2014_Flights/MJH-1_20140307/index.php?ind=1
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[14:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> Unless Brian hear's it later of course ;-)
[14:20] <mjholmes> thanks Geoff
[14:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> nps
[14:20] <OZ1SKY_Brian> got it
[14:20] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi
[14:20] <Laurenceb_> is MJH-1 dead?
[14:20] <Geoff-G8DHE> Nope Brian has jusr got it!
[14:21] <Lunar_LanderU> cool
[14:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> its very weak, i have to get ready for moms birthday, so ill be away for a abit, back before i leave, ill let it track
[14:22] <Lunar_LanderU> happy birthday to her
[14:22] <OZ1SKY_Brian> its still -0.3deg elevation, should get better, back in ½hour
[14:22] <OZ1SKY_Brian> thanks :-)
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[14:28] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
[14:28] <Lunar_LanderU> tillykke med fødselsdagen :)
[14:28] <Lunar_LanderU> hope google got that right
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[14:32] <mjholmes> Great news brian, thanks. Just nice to hear it's still up!
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[14:35] <UpuWork> Excellent :)
[14:35] <UpuWork> thats shifting
[14:37] <UpuWork> 80mph
[14:38] <Lunar_LanderU> hi Anthony :)
[14:38] <UpuWork> Hi Lunar
[14:43] <OZ1SKY_Brian> mjholmes good luck with it, current 434.649.5 @1722Hz 370Hz shift
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[14:44] <OZ1SKY_Brian> correction 434.649.5 @1265Hz 370Hz shift
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[15:00] <mjholmes> OZ1SKY_Brian: Thanks, much appreciated
[15:01] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
[15:01] <craag> Congrats on the float mjholmes !
[15:01] <craag> Nice n high too
[15:03] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
[15:03] <Lunar_LanderU> wb craag
[15:04] <gonzo_> mjholmes, what's the payload mass?
[15:04] <craag> 21g with AAA
[15:04] <craag> according to the email
[15:04] <gonzo_> not bad
[15:05] <craag> Quite good for NTX2-based
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[15:05] <craag> I wasn't sure about that gps antenna feed, but it seems to be working well!
[15:05] <eroomde> pic?
[15:06] <craag> http://imgur.com/KyYqqFB
[15:06] <eroomde> ntx2s are forgiving :)
[15:06] <eroomde> i mean max7's*
[15:06] <eroomde> i think they have like 20dB of wiggle room
[15:07] <craag> We've been having real trouble with them here in soton
[15:07] <mattbrejza> try telling that to my ones...
[15:07] <eroomde> when i was testing their anti-jamming capability, there was about 30dB of dynamic range between detecting jamming and loosing lock
[15:07] <craag> ^^ this guy twitches everytime someone mentions a MAX7
[15:07] <eroomde> which was impressive
[15:07] <eroomde> maybe even 40, i forget
[15:07] <mattbrejza> although they did get lock inside last wed?
[15:07] <mattbrejza> or was that just time?
[15:08] <craag> Not sure, GDP was using an adafruit
[15:08] <craag> I didn't see much of the other guys
[15:08] <mattbrejza> yea i got distracted with stuff too
[15:09] <eroomde> we really just need a max6 with lower power consumption
[15:09] <mattbrejza> i would guess the max7s are probably fine, it just seems odd that they have somewhat lower performance than the max6 ones
[15:10] <craag> They are 1dB lower on the datasheet iirc, but practically that shouldn't make noticeable difference
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[15:13] <mattbrejza> yea its more than 1dB...
[15:13] <craag> Nobody else appears to be having issues though... could it be that somehow your boards are worse for max7?
[15:14] <craag> Might be worth making up some different ones just to see
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[15:14] <mattbrejza> well i have two breakouts too
[15:14] <craag> oh yeah, forgot about those
[15:14] <craag> :/
[15:14] <mattbrejza> i havnt really been testing with my micro trackers
[15:16] <craag> I appear to have collected a large number of NTX2Bs, might be worth me making a few simple MJH-like trackers at some point to use them up.
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[15:17] <mjholmes> sorry, nipped out. It was probaby about 22/23g with the extra tape i added this morning.
[15:18] <mjholmes> This used a MAX7C but the other one i've got soldered up has the 3.3v MAX6 which seems to get a lock even quicker.
[15:18] <mattbrejza> good to see im not the only one
[15:18] <mattbrejza> most people dont have two to compare
[15:18] <OZ1SKY_Brian> when the payload gets colder, will it go higher or lower in freq, i forgot?
[15:18] <mjholmes> both could get a lock indoors which surprised me.
[15:18] <gonzo_> not bad result under a single foil!
[15:19] <mjholmes> for my first pico launch and tracker i'm pretty chuffed
[15:20] <OZ1SKY_Brian> can anyone answer to that question, i have to leave soon, so i have to get the radio correct, to keep it for as long as possible
[15:21] <gonzo_> OZ1SKY_Brian, yes colder goes hf
[15:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> higher or lower?
[15:21] <mattbrejza> lower
[15:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> thanks
[15:21] <gonzo_> I assume it's the xtal shrinking
[15:22] <mattbrejza> well its not linear, i think its cubic
[15:22] <mattbrejza> although ive only tested it enough to see its at least quadratic
[15:22] <gonzo_> Higher isn't it. As uit cools?
[15:23] <LeoBodnar> Tempco does weird things
[15:24] <gonzo_> I know there is a turnover temp for xtals. But cheap ones, it could be anywhere!
[15:24] <mattbrejza> i measured one to be around 0C
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[15:24] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ok i set the radio, so it can drop from 2388Hz
[15:29] <kd2eat> I'm having trouble with Max7s as well, for the record. The Pecan Pico4 was built for Max6s. I can't make a Max7 work on mine.
[15:29] <kd2eat> I'm going to do a board redesign.
[15:30] <LeoBodnar> is it TCXO / XO difference?
[15:30] <LeoBodnar> or just cost cutting?
[15:30] <mattbrejza> i have a tcxo and a non tcxo one
[15:30] <LeoBodnar> any difference?
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[15:31] <mattbrejza> well they barely get lock so not much i notice
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[15:31] <mattbrejza> also these are on my boards which ive tested less than the breakouts which are both Cs
[15:31] <mattbrejza> (non tcxo i think)
[15:33] <LeoBodnar> yeah Q is TCXO
[15:36] <eroomde> but 3v3 only
[15:36] <eroomde> which is retarded
[15:37] <LeoBodnar> why the heck they put SMPS inside the chip?
[15:37] <eroomde> do they?
[15:38] <eroomde> i just assumed (never bothered to look) it was because of not being able to find a 1v8 tcxo
[15:39] <LeoBodnar> "In addition a high efficiency DC/DC converter is integrated to allow low power consumption even for higher main supply voltages."
[15:39] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 434.647.7 @2369Hz 370Hz shift. I gotta run to moms birthday. Later and good luck to MJH-1
[15:40] <eroomde> how silly
[15:40] <eroomde> let's hope the eva-7m answers all our prayers
[15:41] <mjholmes> OZ1SKY_Brian: cheers, have fun
[15:41] <LeoBodnar> i'd rather have LDO outboard and clean DC brought into the chip
[15:42] <LeoBodnar> I wonder if I can hack it
[15:42] <LeoBodnar> but why
[15:42] <mattbrejza> perhaps the dsp is via the switchmode and the rf stuff via a linear reg?
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[15:44] <G8APZ> MJH-1 about to cross Danish coast
[15:47] <G8APZ> Crossed the coastline
[15:49] <LeoBodnar> congrats for floating and going international on the first flight!
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[15:50] <DL7AD> good afternoon
[15:50] <DL7AD> OZ1SKY_Brian: hi
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[15:54] <G8APZ> I didn't decode any telem but the sigs looked pretty stable without drift when I could see sigs on waterfall... pretty good result!
[15:54] <G8APZ> Need some SM trackers soon!
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[16:04] <LeoBodnar> Just probed MAX-7C
[16:04] <LeoBodnar> there is 1.45V buck SMPS running at1.8MHz there
[16:06] <mjholmes> thanks LeoBodnar. looked a bit touch and go at first
[16:07] <mjholmes> the drift hasnt been a problem really. i guess pico flights dont have a high rate of temperature change compared to up-burst-down style ones
[16:07] <Laurenceb_> unexpected
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[16:07] <LeoBodnar> it will go down to -45C overnight
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[16:08] <LeoBodnar> oh at that altitude perhaps -30C
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[16:09] <Lunar_LanderU> that was strange
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[16:14] <mjholmes> looks like mjh-1 is dropping altitude
[16:15] <Geoff-G8DHE> has been for a while, but not sure if its cooling now with the Sun off it
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[16:16] <LeoBodnar> looks like a leak
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[16:20] <mjholmes> assuming the descent rate speeds up a little i suspect it'll have a water landing
[16:20] <LeoBodnar> it might with sunset
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[16:23] <WillTablet> So is compression type pl259 the same as crimp pl259
[16:23] <mfa298> highly unlikely
[16:23] <mfa298> although I don't think I've ever seen crimp pl259 (not that I've looked for them)
[16:24] <Geoff-G8DHE> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=crimp+pl259&num=100&newwindow=1&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=UZe&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=qPIZU5PpGIKThQfW8IHICA&ved=0CEAQsAQ&biw=1166&bih=1048
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[16:25] <Geoff-G8DHE> and compression https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=compression+pl259&num=100&newwindow=1&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=Eae&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=1vIZU5S5GoaN7Ab5sYCYDw&ved=0CI0BELAE&biw=1166&bih=1048
[16:25] <G8APZ> the only PL259 to use is an adaptor from PL259 to Ntype!
[16:26] <mfa298> for crimp plugs you generally need to buy the right cable for the plug and have a suitable crimp tool. Expensive for a couple of connectors but gives a good connection and for lots of cables it's much easier than the other types
[16:26] <tweetBot> @Matt_J_Holmes: Balloon MJH-1 descending over Denmark having flown from the UK this morning. Current TX on 434.647.7MHz. #hamr #ukhas http://t.co/0RnPLY5hYb
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[16:27] <sa6bss> will be home in about an hour to track mjh1
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[16:28] <mjholmes> heh, tweetbot, nice.
[16:29] <G8APZ> sa6bss It's coming straight towards you!
[16:30] <Willdude123> I've not seen compression ones or n types, just heard about
[16:30] <mjholmes> and seamingly gaining altitude again
[16:30] <sa6bss> Yes :) leving work in just over
[16:30] <sa6bss> 30 min
[16:31] <mfa298> you were linked to compression pl259 plugs for rg213 on nevada radio the other day.
[16:32] <Geoff-G8DHE> Currently rather wet below MJH-1 http://www.yr.no/sted/Danmark/Nordjylland/%C3%85lborg/time_for_time.html
[16:32] <SIbot1> In real units: 85 lbs = 38.6 kg
[16:32] <eroomde> silly bot
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[16:32] <myself> that's an amazing bot
[16:33] <myself> will it convert pounds sterling to metric dollars? ;)
[16:33] <Willdude123> mfa298: will have a look. Google finds nothing
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[16:34] <G8APZ> £6 sterling
[16:34] <G8APZ> no - it doesn't!
[16:34] <mfa298> Willdude123: on nevada radio I think they're called deluxe pl259
[16:34] <Geoff-G8DHE> Its SI not currency!
[16:34] <eroomde> myself: just lbs at ft
[16:34] <G8APZ> yes of course!
[16:34] <eroomde> my balloon goes to 100000ft
[16:34] <SIbot1> In real units: 100000 ft = 30 km
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[16:35] <eroomde> you cannot make a hab payload that is less than 3lbs because this is 'murica goddam
[16:35] <SIbot1> In real units: 3 lbs = 1.4 kg
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[16:36] <jphoglund> :)
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[16:37] <G8APZ> how does it deal with a McD 1/4 pound er
[16:37] <Willdude123> Expensive http://www.nevadaradio.co.uk/cables-leads-plugs/plugs-adaptors/nevada-uhf-014
[16:37] <g0pai_ian> The PL259 terminology for what you refer is PL259 CLAMP PLUG. Mr Google https://www.google.co.uk/#q=pl259+clamp+plug
[16:39] <mfa298> that's a reasonable price for something that might actually do something close to the right thing with your RF.
[16:39] <g0pai_ian> There's a good clue Maplin sell Moonraker clamp plugs, So Maplin or Moonraker for supply, among others http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/moonraker-9mm-clamp-fitting-for-coax-pl259-n42jk
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[17:18] <G8APZ> crossed Danish coast - may fly over Laeso Island
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[17:27] <mjholmes> at this rate it's prob got about 30-45mins flight time left
[17:27] <DL1SGP_> congrats on the flight mjholmes
[17:27] Nick change: DL1SGP_ -> DL1SGP
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[17:31] <G8APZ> It should make it to Sweden...
[17:31] <G8APZ> Battery volts holding up well
[17:32] <arko> nice flight mjholmes
[17:32] <mjholmes> I need to runs some tests on the bstt monitor. it wasnt right this morning but had been fine previosuly
[17:32] <mjholmes> arko: thanks
[17:32] <eroomde> bstt?
[17:32] <mjholmes> batt
[17:32] <eroomde> how's it implemented?
[17:32] <mjholmes> it was reporting 1.4v at the start of the flight with a fresh lithium AAA
[17:33] <mjholmes> voltage divider from battery + to an ATMega analog pin
[17:33] <eroomde> and what provides the reference voltage for the adc?
[17:34] <mjholmes> iirc it the was internal ATMega ref and Vref was tied to gnd. Need to double check
[17:35] <eroomde> ok
[17:35] <eroomde> so probs just a divider calculation/calibration bug?
[17:36] <eroomde> or something is pulling too much current out of the divider magically
[17:36] <myself> vref tied to gnd??
[17:36] <mjholmes> yeah, that's what it looks like but i havent changed code/hardware for about a week now.
[17:37] <myself> I hope you mean tied to vcc, or otherwise you were using the internal bandgap reference or something. Vref should be the most positive voltage in the comparison.
[17:38] <craag> AREF should be decoupled, even when using the internal reference iirc
[17:39] <Willdude123> Are the clamp types only for the braid - does the pin need tovbe soldered?
[17:39] <mjholmes> just checked. aref is tied to gnd via 0.1uF cap
[17:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> Willdude123, Yes
[17:39] <craag> mjholmes: Ah, good.
[17:39] <craag> decoupled, not tied
[17:39] <mjholmes> sorry, yes
[17:40] <craag> Most likely just a divider calibration issue then, quite common if using cheap resistors.
[17:40] <craag> I tend to calibrate for it, and then put a 'fudge' multiplier in the code.
[17:41] <myself> that takes careful characterization, it helps if you have a good programmable PSU or DMM
[17:41] <myself> we just got some balls-insane nanovoltmeter at work, I'm trying to figure out when I can bring in all my personal meters and calibrate 'em to it :)
[17:42] <craag> A dmm is all you need. But yes a variable psu does make it a 10s job to verify it across the target range.
[17:43] <eroomde> myself: 3458a?
[17:44] <G8APZ> 5 mins and no updates...?
[17:44] <aadamson> eroomde, I think you are one of the *rocket boys* :)... my L3 from LDRS a few years ago... Mclass AP/aluminum (hence white smoke)
[17:44] <myself> eroomde: 34401a
[17:44] <mjholmes> my approach was to get the code to print analogRead and use a DMM at the same time. Divide the two, come up with a multiplier then store that in the code.
[17:45] <eroomde> aadamson: should there be a link?
[17:45] <aadamson> http://youtu.be/_gb2uz33hGk - helps when you post the link... duh
[17:45] <eroomde> myself: ah cool. i have a 34401
[17:45] <craag> mjholmes: Sounds good, that's what I do
[17:45] <eroomde> it's the reference instrument we use for calibrating our dataloggers
[17:45] <eroomde> i also have a Time Electronics 0.01% calibrator which i love
[17:45] <myself> yup. I can't imagine why they bought this thing, they don't need it, but I ain't complaining.
[17:46] <eroomde> it can do 5 sigifiant figures on voltags, current and resistence from nv to 100v, up to 10k-ohm, and uA to 100mA
[17:46] <eroomde> myself: well it's a useful thing to have around and keep calibrated
[17:46] <eroomde> just nice to have a reference truth machine
[17:47] <myself> Sure, but what's a hair salon need with a calibrated voltmeter in the first place?
[17:47] <eroomde> a hair salon?
[17:47] <myself> Well no, but it feels almost as out-of-place.
[17:47] <eroomde> what does your workplace do?
[17:47] <myself> The lab here is really a garage; we have some power supplies and things. And now this meter.
[17:47] <myself> Vehicle electronics.
[17:48] <eroomde> aadamson: cool
[17:48] <eroomde> i have not sone much hpr stuff
[17:48] <eroomde> but did a 2-stage N-M a couple of years ago
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[17:48] <eroomde> and going to balls this year with something fun too
[17:49] <aadamson> those are always fun to watch, I had a friend who liked to so cluster of smaller to L/M multi stage flights
[17:49] <aadamson> on experimental propellants thats always fun.
[17:49] <eroomde> that's what i like
[17:49] <eroomde> biprops
[17:49] <aadamson> I say experiemental, I have probably 10 different forumulas that all work so long as you don't over pressure them
[17:50] <eroomde> i've done some work on some novel combinations
[17:50] <aadamson> we go on this kick with colors so I have reds, greens, blues, blacks, sparkies, whites, clears, oranges, purples (that was a tough color) even some with NOS
[17:50] <myself> tom clancy + ann mccafferey
[17:51] <myself> foom!
[17:51] <eroomde> i think in our industry we desribe 'novel' as stuff that isn't mentioned by John D Clark
[17:51] <eroomde> but have done some fun combinations like propellants you could synthesize on the surface of mars
[17:52] <aadamson> the most fun I had was with a whipped cream canister of NOS and PVC as the fuel in a C/D sized rocket :)
[17:52] <eroomde> this photo (i like it) is from when we tried carbon monoxide + oxygen
[17:52] <eroomde> http://www.flickr.com/photos/eroomde/8371635016/
[17:53] <aadamson> yeah, the mach diamonds are awesome in that!
[17:56] <myself> Oh wow. that's beautiful for so many reasons.
[17:59] <sa6bss> starting to recieve mjh-1
[18:01] <aadamson> sa6bss, hmm, its not showing up on spacenear...
[18:02] <aadamson> and just like that poof, it did :)
[18:02] <sa6bss> still getting red ones
[18:02] <sa6bss> but inproves by every run
[18:02] <aadamson> interesting, it's lost half of it's altitude
[18:02] <aadamson> 1/3 anyway
[18:06] <sa6bss> first green :)
[18:07] <sa6bss> had to change to rtty 50/350
[18:07] <mjholmes> sa6bss: what's the current dial freq?
[18:07] <sa6bss> 434.648.8 @1700
[18:08] <mjholmes> thanks
[18:08] <sa6bss> I try to contact ulc
[18:10] <Reb-SM3ULC> ello
[18:10] <Reb-SM3ULC> <= magic sense ;)
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[18:14] <Reb-SM3ULC> I thought it was gping down..
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[18:14] <x-f> it might have changed its mind
[18:15] <Reb-SM3ULC> sa6bss: hams.se?
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[18:16] <sa6bss> yaep, sent you a pm
[18:16] <sa6bss> and posted a note in the hab thred
[18:18] <mjholmes> mjh-1 has been changing it's mind quite a lot. bit of a bizzare descent profile.
[18:24] <sa6bss> just an hour ago it got qiute windy and it started to rain for about 20min
[18:25] <mjholmes> certainly climbing again now
[18:25] <sa6bss> so if the baloon got throug the same wether sytem I can understand its up/down behavior
[18:25] <sa6bss> have to constanly retune dl-fldigi
[18:27] <mjholmes> shift?
[18:29] <Reb-SM3ULC> About 6h until AOS might be possible for me¨
[18:29] <mjholmes> i'm going to have to dash. thanks to everyone that has helped with mjh-1. i suspect it has about 60-90mins battery left, i'm not sure i trust the Battery reading it is transmitting.
[18:30] <sa6bss> 1200
[18:30] <Reb-SM3ULC> mjholmes: seems liek success anyway :)
[18:31] <mjholmes> Reb-SM3ULC: certainly pleased with how it has gone. now to write some better code :)
[18:32] <mjholmes> bye all
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[18:34] Nick change: jhj -> trn
[18:34] <fsphil> ah it's still going?
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[18:37] <Reb-SM3ULC> fsphil: again the stubborn swede propose hour-markings or somehting along the predicted path.. :)
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[18:43] <DL7AD> evening
[18:43] <DL7AD> which frequency does MJH-1 have?
[18:44] <sa6bss> 434.648.4 @1100
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[18:45] <DL7AD> sa6bss: thx
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[18:56] <sa6bss> its up@1700 and moving uo fast
[18:58] <craag> looks like battery is dying
[18:59] <craag> oh not yet, mis-interpreted the graph
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[19:02] <aadamson> craag, is there a way to see telemetry in realtime (or semireal?)
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[19:03] <Reb-SM3ULC> http://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/payload/a4898b3c4a3d20d8fd2db03f351d6d04#g/battery,temperature_external,altitude,speed
[19:03] <aadamson> ah very cool... thanks!
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[19:04] <craag> or you can get graphs by clicking the telemetry names at http://habmap.philcrump.co.uk/
[19:04] <jcoxon> evening all
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[19:09] <mclane> nice map craag!
[19:10] SM5OCI (51d832c4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.216.50.196) joined #highaltitude.
[19:10] <jcoxon> oooo good work MJH-1
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[19:15] <LeoBodnar> Oh, Svenska! yay
[19:16] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:18] <Upu> corking effort
[19:19] <Upu> this is a 3.3V NTX2B powered Pico
[19:19] <tweetBot> @AMSAT_UK: 'Travel' to Space for £40 / $70 http://t.co/BinKIZmQqP #amsat #hamradio #amateurradio #ukhas #vr2space
[19:20] <LeoBodnar> do you pay in trainers?
[19:20] <arko> "Space"
[19:20] <arko> *sigh*
[19:21] <LeoBodnar> i've been to space
[19:21] <LeoBodnar> in my loft
[19:21] <LeoBodnar> there's hardly any left
[19:22] <cuddykid> I have HABE 11 back!
[19:22] <cuddykid> Video footage is still on the SD card, shame the battery dies just before whoever took it, confirmed landed in tact so whoever physically ripped open the payload box
[19:22] <Upu> yay
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[19:23] <arko> grats!
[19:23] <mclane> how did you get it back?
[19:23] <cuddykid> police got it back after going to address behind IP
[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> hello cuddykid, congratulations on the successful payload recovery, sorry to hear that there were troubles
[19:24] <cuddykid> police said their press team will probably run the story as it's one of the weirdest they've ever had lol
[19:24] <cuddykid> Hi Lunar_Lander thanks :)
[19:24] <myself> Awesome.
[19:24] <Lunar_Lander> what had happened?
[19:24] <cuddykid> mclane: http://habe.acudworth.co.uk/blog/
[19:24] <cuddykid> see update
[19:24] <myself> That's gonna be hilarious seeing how the press misunderstands even the simplest concepts and completely gets it wrong.
[19:24] <cuddykid> Lunar_Lander: ^
[19:25] <Lunar_Lander> myself, yeah like calling our stratosphere balloons "hot-air balloons"
[19:25] <Lunar_Lander> one of the most common errors
[19:26] <mclane> cool, cuddykid!!
[19:27] <LeoBodnar> i assume when you read up papers on any slightly specialist subject there are bunch of in-the-knows sitting somewhere shaking their heads in despair
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> cuddykid, ah how did you get that guy's IP in the first place?
[19:28] <tweetBot> @adamcudworth: I have HABE 11 back (3 months later)! Thanks to @NorthantsPolice #ukhas http://t.co/71AbtMO0zn
[19:28] <Lunar_Lander> cuddykid, nevermind, didn't read far enough xD
[19:28] <LeoBodnar> what did Police say?
[19:29] <LeoBodnar> have they been amused themselves?
[19:29] <cuddykid> amazed it all worked out, one of the strangest things they've ever done
[19:29] <arko> who the heck stole a hab?
[19:30] <arko> ufo chasers?
[19:30] <LeoBodnar> hab snatchers
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[19:30] <arko> hah
[19:30] <cuddykid> the chap had ripped the power leads (soldered to the pcb) and turned off the backup tracker aswell as physically removing it's battery..
[19:30] <cuddykid> clearly didn't want us finding him!
[19:30] <arko> wtf
[19:30] <arko> pardon me, but srsly, what the heck
[19:31] <myself> that pretty much shows intent
[19:31] <arko> no kidding
[19:31] <myself> have you decided to bring charges?
[19:31] <LeoBodnar> so would they get caution or what?
[19:31] <cuddykid> they said it would be very hard to prove and I'm not going to get much out of it anyway, so they're just going to caution him
[19:31] <myself> yeah, oh well. It'd be amusing to see on his record.
[19:32] <arko> - High altitude balloon thief
[19:33] <Reb-SM3ULC> mm 30 km/h... i think 30m/s....
[19:34] <LeoBodnar> MJH-1 profile looks more like icing rather than leak
[19:35] <jcoxon> thats the better option i guess
[19:40] <Reb-SM3ULC> 434.648 is quite occupied at my qth
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[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> in summer 2010, one of the two balloons launched at HAM RADIO at Lake Constance disappeared after landing in Switzerland
[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> they also think it has been stolen
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[20:17] <cm13g09> cuddykid: congrats to Northants Police on a successful recovery of a HAB payload I guess....
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[20:18] <cuddykid> yep
[20:18] <cuddykid> whoever had it charged up the camera too.. got it back with batts full
[20:18] <cm13g09> fun :P
[20:18] <craag> still got the footage on it?
[20:20] <cm13g09> I'm impressed at Northants Police tbh cuddykid - that's some investigation work they've had to do to get that!
[20:20] <cuddykid> craag: yep
[20:20] <craag> :D
[20:20] <cuddykid> cm13g09: yes, I'm very surprised they pursued it
[20:21] <craag> Any footage of the guy picking it up? :P
[20:22] <SM5OCI> MJH-1 is quite loud in Linköping, Sweden. Distance: abt 40km. Let's see if I can get some data
[20:22] <Upu> this is pretty impressive run time for a 3.3V step up from an AA
[20:23] <sa6bss> tejna sm5oic, kul o se dig i kanalen
[20:23] <Upu> however if that battery reading is accurate you have about 20 mins left
[20:23] <fsphil> cuddykid: ah sweet
[20:23] <craag> Yeah battery voltage dropping fast
[20:24] <cuddykid> craag: camera died minutes after landing - probably only a few mins before the guy got to it
[20:24] <cuddykid> craag: or - the guy looked at the footage and deleted it
[20:24] <craag> Possible, although why keep the rest of it if he was planning to steal it?
[20:25] <cuddykid> which.. actually... makes sense as the last file is 3.93 gig which is the max before it starts a new file
[20:25] <craag> oh
[20:25] <cuddykid> no idea, but looks like he did
[20:25] <cuddykid> would be very odd for the battery to die bang on max file size
[20:25] <craag> oh well, you got it all back.
[20:25] <cuddykid> :)
[20:25] <craag> Bring on the next flight!
[20:25] <cuddykid> possibly end of next week.. just possibly haha
[20:26] <craag> :)
[20:26] <LeoBodnar> recover deleted files
[20:26] <craag> looks like the rest of this month might be busy flight wise
[20:27] <mattbrejza> cuddykid: that ^ :D
[20:27] <craag> cuddykid: https://github.com/jstepien/oh-no-my-flash-card-is-gone
[20:28] <craag> ^^ not sure if that works for deleted files, but I'd had it bookmarked
[20:28] <fsphil> undelete!
[20:28] <mattbrejza> recuva for windows
[20:29] <fsphil> I've used recuva a few times, it works well
[20:29] <fsphil> got some really odd pictures from the last ebay camera I bought
[20:29] <fsphil> so I don't recommend using it all the time
[20:29] <mattbrejza> it might not be just windows tbh
[20:29] <craag> lol fsphil
[20:29] <sa6bss> lol
[20:30] <sa6bss> I have put my SL grabber online so u can se hove the mjh-1 drifts up and down http://www.qsl.net/sa6bss/
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[20:35] <sa6bss> 434.649.00 @1300
[20:37] <Willdude> So yay - doing vigenere code again
[20:37] <Willdude> 14 errors :/
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[20:38] <Willdude> To misquote Shakespeare: "I hate C data types as I hate hell, all Montagues and thee."
[20:38] <SM5OCI> ANnoying. MJH-1 is like 15 km from me now, but as I have no cable between radio and computer, and no external antenna I get only fragments.
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[20:44] <craag> SM5OCI: Is it still alive?
[20:45] <sa6bss> its alive, but getting red decodes
[20:45] <craag> Can you see what battery voltage it's reporting?
[20:46] <sa6bss> http://www.qsl.net/sa6bss/
[20:46] <sa6bss> sry one mon
[20:46] <sa6bss> moment
[20:46] <craag> Ah a couple of partials were just uploaded
[20:46] <sa6bss> ~$$$$MJH-1,2435,20;5:35,7,58.7399,15.7224,3314,28.7,58,-3.6,0.92*3216
[20:46] <sa6bss> $$$$MJJ-1,2436,20:45:=2,8,58.5423,11.7296,3293,29/1.57,-3.8,0.91(3E83
[20:46] <sa6bss> $$$dmJH-1,2^37,Y0;46z09,x,58.5467,15/7367,3289,u8.3,7,-3.8,0>91*0352
[20:46] <craag> 0.89V
[20:46] <Upu> thats game over
[20:47] <eroomde> his batt voltage mon is not correct, he was saying
[20:47] <Upu> yeah but its 12 hours
[20:47] <Upu> 3.3V from a single AA
[20:48] <Upu> its time
[20:48] <Upu> :)
[20:48] <sa6bss> green :)
[20:48] <eroomde> lol
[20:48] <eroomde> you're like the hab reaper
[20:48] <eroomde> you just turn up and gently whisper 'it's time'
[20:49] <sa6bss> signal increasing !!
[20:49] <fsphil> still floating
[20:49] <fsphil> ish
[20:49] <craag> amazing flight for a first attempt
[20:49] <fsphil> that's a weird altitude profile
[20:50] <sa6bss> it got winy outside for a couple of minutes, guess my antenna did not like that
[20:50] <sa6bss> it died... no mor diganl
[20:50] <fsphil> aww
[20:51] <SM5OCI> Yes, it seems to be dying.
[20:51] <SM5OCI> It stopped, started again, but now just intermittent beeps going from low to high frequency.
[20:51] <fsphil> Upu's deed is done
[20:52] <craag> He took it's soul
[20:52] <craag> *its
[20:52] Action: Upu rubs his hands together
[20:52] <SM5OCI> All quiet now.
[20:53] <Reb-SM3ULC> darn , so close
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[20:53] <SM5OCI> I really really need toget my act together.
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[20:54] <Upu> impressive run time for the configuration
[20:54] <SM5OCI> ... and get a working soundcard interface going.
[20:56] <Willdude> So good news - I shall be able to get tracking HABs again this weekend
[20:56] <Willdude> Hopefully
[20:57] <SpeedEvil> woo!
[20:58] <mfa298> did you ever actually track habs to be able to start again </pedant>
[20:58] <fsphil> then the wait for one to track
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[21:01] <sa6bss> this was its last tx %$$$MJH-1,0,20:50:15,8,58.5775,15.841=G+ >gxWYVP- ~=~}ihf#/5MU/)23U z`;Wr2|aN.7lIH~?
[21:01] <Willdude> mfa298 8 lines :)
[21:02] <Willdude> C'mon can I at least get some sarcastic applause for that?
[21:02] <fsphil> yea....
[21:03] <YL2CP> quit
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[21:04] <Lunar_Lander> evening daveake
[21:05] <daveake> eve ll
[21:05] <chrisstubbs> cuddykid, congrats!
[21:06] <mfa298> Willdude: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1rkzpHj1n1r6aoq4o1_500.gif
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[21:11] <aadamson> So (always a loaded question starter), what do you all figure is the *floater* weight for payload for a 36" foil balloon
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[21:13] <aadamson> maybe I should say, what do you target the payload weight to be on that type balloon?
[21:13] <Upu> low
[21:13] <aadamson> duh, I know that
[21:13] <Upu> :)
[21:13] <Upu> I would aim for sub 20g
[21:14] <aadamson> I don't think the calculator will give me a valid starting point correct?
[21:14] <aadamson> hence my question
[21:14] <Upu> nah
[21:14] <aadamson> sheesh now hwere is sibot when *I* need it :)
[21:14] <Upu> they have a lift capacity of about 60g
[21:14] <Upu> but I doubt they will float with that on
[21:15] <craag> And if they did, it would be at about 3000m, with very little radio range
[21:15] <Upu> however they will float with 1-2g of free lift and a 20g or lower payload
[21:15] <Upu> yep
[21:15] <Upu> lower weight = higher float
[21:15] <Upu> the 15g float at 7-8km
[21:15] <Upu> 20g 5-6 so 5g makes a pretty large difference
[21:16] <Upu> leo can correct me if my numbers are wrong
[21:16] <aadamson> ok... I have seen most of your do the 6-8km and indeed they were 15ish g...
[21:16] <Upu> most of leo's are sub 15g
[21:16] <Upu> I never got one to float until I got it below 20g
[21:16] <Upu> mine were knocking around the 25g
[21:17] <aadamson> I know the wiki covers latex filling, so how do you deal with such a light lift weight and filling?
[21:17] <Upu> but it may have been over filled
[21:17] <Upu> personally I weigh out a lump of blu tac 1g more that the payload
[21:17] <Upu> stick it on the neck and fill till it ascends
[21:17] <Upu> I over filled the first one
[21:18] <Upu> the balloons don't look inflated with a 15g payload and 1g of lift
[21:18] <aadamson> maybe I'm not getting the *process* but how do you deal with the fill tube weight etc?
[21:18] <Upu> there is no fill tube
[21:18] <Upu> just stick the nozzle in the one way valvwe
[21:19] <aadamson> ok, and scuze the density... but the nozzle is fixed to something and with it in the balloon, how the heck do you determine what the balloon can lift... what am I missing?
[21:19] <LeoBodnar> Upu: this is correct http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:microballoons:data?s[]=microballoons bottom
[21:19] <Upu> I use one of these http://www.extremekiteshop.com/kites/images/helium-gas-cylinder.jpg
[21:20] <Upu> ok aadamson the foils have a one way valve
[21:20] <Upu> so you jsut stick the nozzle in push it down and it fills and then you remove it
[21:20] <Upu> stick blu tac on
[21:20] <Upu> if it doesn't float squirt a bit more in
[21:20] <Upu> but with care as its easy to over fill
[21:20] <aadamson> ah, got it... ok, not balloon saavy - yet :)
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[21:22] <Laurenceb_> http://www.mike-willis.com/Tutorial/PF7.htm
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> useful basic into to fresnel zones
[21:22] <Upu> evening Laurenceb
[21:22] <aadamson> of the weight, how much is the battery?
[21:22] <Upu> all of it :)
[21:23] <aadamson> seems I'm seeing 23g for a AA
[21:23] <Upu> my tracker is about 3.5g
[21:23] <Upu> wrong aa
[21:23] <aadamson> must be :)
[21:23] <Upu> L91's are 14.5g
[21:23] <Upu> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf
[21:23] <aadamson> just alkaline composition or lithiums
[21:23] <Upu> L92's are 7.6g
[21:23] <aadamson> got it... thanks
[21:23] <Upu> and the more efficient trackers can do 24 hours + from an AAA
[21:25] <LeoBodnar> the one that went North was AAA
[21:25] <LeoBodnar> I think it was ~30hours
[21:25] <Upu> mine that went to the Ukraine (soon to be more russia) was an AAA
[21:25] <Laurenceb_> hi Upu
[21:25] <Upu> Leo's code is more efficient than mine
[21:25] <Upu> but mine is constant TX
[21:27] <LeoBodnar> but ballpark is 20-30 hours on AAA
[21:28] <Willdude> Why is it the Ukraine and not Ukraine?
[21:29] <Maxell> Near space right? http://corpsmoderne.itch.io/flappy-space-program
[21:29] <Maxell> Get flappy into orbit
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[21:36] <aadamson> Upu, what does the max7c weigh?
[21:37] <Upu> you know I don't think I've ever weighed one
[21:37] <Upu> about a gram
[21:37] <aadamson> ok, thanks
[21:37] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_60&product_id=52 that with a 0.8mm PCB and chip antenna is 1.5g
[21:38] <LeoBodnar> less
[21:38] <aadamson> ah data sheet says .6g
[21:38] <LeoBodnar> i think about 0.6-0.7g
[21:38] <aadamson> nice guess LeoBodnar
[21:38] <Upu> the metal sheild is 0.25g
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[21:39] <Upu> I removed it on one :)
[21:39] <eroomde> you must need a sense of humour to work in medicine
[21:39] <eroomde> http://www.reddit.com/r/funny/comments/1zth6y/just_when_i_thought_work_couldnt_get_more/
[21:39] <Upu> oooookay
[21:41] <Lunar_Lander> lab move almost done :) http://s.gullipics.com/image/l/z/x/5yveq0-k5kjk5-xej5/IMG0846.jpeg
[21:41] <Upu> if this is a picture of a desk with a six year old PC on it Lunar I'm going to rage
[21:42] Action: Upu afk raging
[21:42] <craag> It's ok Upu there's a scope too!
[21:42] <Upu> ah mitigated
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[21:42] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:42] <aadamson> with phosphor or a real display? :)
[21:43] <aadamson> course I guess in the day phosphor on a display was a *real display* :)
[21:43] <craag> What's not real about phosphor??!
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[21:43] <craag> :P
[21:43] <eroomde> stay tuned for the next exciting installment of: Lab Move Episode 3: Return of the Filing Cabinet
[21:43] <aadamson> yeah, exactly
[21:43] <Upu> lol
[21:43] <craag> lol
[21:43] <aadamson> omg, they still make those!
[21:43] <aadamson> mine fits in my pocket normally and allows me to make phone calls too
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[21:44] Nick change: Laurenceb -> Laurenceb_
[21:44] <eroomde> the labels are in english
[21:45] <craag> hmm good point
[21:45] <craag> I call fake!
[21:45] <craag> staged lab move!
[21:45] <eroomde> lunar lives in orpington
[21:45] <eroomde> he's been lying this whole time
[21:45] <Willdude> Eugh I feel like giving up on C. It's getting far to complex
[21:46] <aadamson> I sent my first gen tracker to kd2eat as a backup this morning - http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=19042026&postcount=1
[21:46] <aadamson> wooo hoo
[21:46] <eroomde> i'll give you some pointers
[21:47] <Upu> I disapprove of the GPS module aadamson :)
[21:47] <aadamson> hehe, not that was funny
[21:47] <Upu> though tidy tracker
[21:47] <aadamson> it was way too long ago... :)
[21:47] <aadamson> but I had them (still do) and it was easy
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[21:47] <aadamson> I think at the time that was the smallest *tracduino* platform around :)
[21:48] <aadamson> in 2011
[21:48] <kd2eat> aadanson: I happened to have a 7c and a scale on my desk. 0.4g for the bare chip.
[21:49] <aadamson> oh, well... cool...
[21:49] <aadamson> thanks!
[21:49] <aadamson> did you get tracking info form me?
[21:49] <aadamson> it went usps priorty today
[21:49] <kd2eat> Yes, first thing this AM. thanks!
[21:49] <Upu> just think aadamson add 1.5cms to the end of that board
[21:49] <aadamson> ah perfect
[21:49] <Upu> and put the GPS on there
[21:50] <Willdude> eroomde, okay, cool. http://is.gd/pomizi Well, I am trying to make a function that can grab the position of a character given the ascii integer for it. The only problem is data types
[21:50] <aadamson> heck my https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/DSCN2416.JPG mash up is a fully operational and is only 1.5" long total :)
[21:51] <eroomde> Willdude: it was a joke
[21:51] <eroomde> i'll give you some pointers
[21:51] <Willdude> Joking?
[21:51] <Upu> even I got that one Willdude
[21:51] <eroomde> 0xde36
[21:51] Action: arko facepalms
[21:51] <aadamson> it's even funny the second time!
[21:51] <eroomde> 0x47f8
[21:51] <Willdude> I thought you were half joking
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[21:51] <Upu> does that do RX as well aadamson ?
[21:52] <aadamson> it can, on that picture it has the RX components on the board
[21:52] <Upu> yeah looked like alot of matching stuff on there
[21:52] <aadamson> problem is that breaks all the rules
[21:52] <Upu> very tidy looks nice
[21:52] <Willdude> With all seriousness can anyone help with that?
[21:52] <aadamson> oh it has resonators on the coils so there are extra caps and it's a 5 pole cheby
[21:52] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Very nice flight for MJH
[21:53] <Upu> yeah I was impressed OZ1SKY_Brian
[21:53] <Upu> nice to see an NTX2B pico
[21:53] <aadamson> but it breaks the rules about not having components *inline* with one another
[21:53] <OZ1SKY_Brian> i see i lost it due to drift
[21:53] <eroomde> does anyone else just see a parrot in goggles and a top hat? http://i.imgur.com/dp90uBN.jpg
[21:53] <Upu> sorry it was an original NTX2
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[21:53] <Upu> lol
[21:54] <OZ1SKY_Brian> NTX2 i know :-)
[21:54] <LeoBodnar> haha eroomde
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[21:55] <mikestir_> Willdude: your format specifier is wrong - %c prints it as a character. you just want to pretend it's an int (%d)
[21:55] <Willdude> Right, but still getting a type error on the function
[21:56] <aadamson> cast the getal... to (int)
[21:56] <mikestir_> oh yeah
[21:56] <mikestir_> argument is a string, should be a char
[21:56] <mikestir_> "" vs ''
[21:56] <aadamson> yep, good catch
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[21:57] Nick change: crash_18974_ -> crash_18974
[21:57] <aadamson> the typecast shouldn't be needed actually, it was the " vs '
[21:57] <kd2eat> Get rid of the "65" and use "ord('A');
[21:58] <mikestir_> it's C
[21:58] <mikestir_> just 'A' would do
[21:58] <aadamson> wait what are you trying to do, I think there is already a c funciton to do ti
[21:58] <aadamson> it
[21:59] <Willdude> Is there?
[21:59] <aadamson> what are trying to do convert a numeric string to it's integer equivalent?
[21:59] <kd2eat> mikestir: Agree, but I think ord() makes it less obfuscated.
[22:00] <aadamson> maybe I should have said an alpha number to it's integer equiv?
[22:00] <Willdude> aadamson, a character in to it. Like a being 0 etc
[22:00] <aadamson> any char?
[22:00] <mikestir_> kd2eat: C has no ord
[22:00] <aadamson> oh, so what I said... a "1" to a 1, "2" to a 2, etc?
[22:00] <kd2eat> Oh, is that C++? sigh. I blame the 70s.
[22:01] <aadamson> or '1' to 1 ...
[22:01] <mikestir_> aadamson: A-Z and a-z to 0-25
[22:01] <Willdude> aadamson, a to z
[22:01] <aadamson> ah...
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[22:01] <Willdude> So a being 0, b = 1, c =2
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[22:01] <aadamson> ok, then subtract an offset and mod 25
[22:03] <aadamson> for example, if A were 25 (it's not it's 65), then sub 25 and mod 25 and you'd get a 0, etc
[22:03] <aadamson> same with it being 65
[22:03] <aadamson> just sub the starting value and mod 25
[22:03] <mikestir_> Willdude: kd2eat is right about using 'A' and 'a' instead of 65 and 97. These are what would be called "magic numbers", which are a bad thing to have
[22:03] <aadamson> or 24, you'll have to figure out the 0 boundary
[22:03] <aadamson> and agreed to the magic numbers, I *hate* those things :)
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[22:03] Action: mikestir_ has been doing code reviews this week
[22:04] <aadamson> mikestir_, got that red pencil out did ya :)
[22:04] <mikestir_> indeed :)
[22:04] <Willdude> Right
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[22:04] <aadamson> at the min use a #define" instead of magic number
[22:04] <kd2eat> I'm old enough to have had issues with code portability between ASCII and EBCDIC. Hard coding values like that would have been big trouble. lol
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[22:05] <aadamson> now that is scary to use that 6 letter word!
[22:05] <Willdude> Is there anything wrong with the function I already did?
[22:05] <mikestir_> functionally no
[22:05] <aadamson> no, just fix it
[22:05] <mikestir_> these are just style issues
[22:05] <kd2eat> And we're old curmudgeons.
[22:06] Action: kd2eat shakes his cane at magic constants
[22:06] <aadamson> and number of bytes issues (as in how efficient it is), but all the approaches will work just fine, use the one you are most comfortable with remembering 10 days from now
[22:06] <mikestir_> aadamson: you can't use mod 25 because the upper and lower case ranges aren't contiguous in ascii
[22:07] <aadamson> but now if you are going to use that number to index an array, etc... well, then some of the other approaches may work better :)
[22:07] <aadamson> yeah I know... I just used it as an example
[22:07] <aadamson> you'd have to filter first if needed
[22:07] <aadamson> you could do it in a ? : statement almost...
[22:08] <aadamson> which reminds me I had friends who worked at Microsoft in the early days and Bill Gates use to walk around and challenge them to a "you do it in your language of choice and I'll do it in less lines ov BASIC!"
[22:08] <aadamson> :)
[22:08] <aadamson> I never heard that he lost btw
[22:09] <Willdude> I'm not quite sure how to keep iterating through the string and going back to the beginning when done
[22:09] <Willdude> *the key
[22:09] <Willdude> If you ++ beyond the end of an array, does it reset?
[22:09] <mikestir_> (c < 'A') ? c : (c <= 'Z') ? c - 'A' : (c < 'a') ? c : (c <= 'z') ? c - 'a' : c
[22:09] <aadamson> NO
[22:09] <mikestir_> lol
[22:09] <Willdude> mikestir_, lolwut
[22:09] <Willdude> Idk what ? does
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[22:10] <aadamson> now that would be kinda yucky code actually :)
[22:10] <aadamson> do you know the length of anything, string, etc?
[22:10] <aadamson> you can always come up with something that gives you *bounds*
[22:11] <aadamson> ? is like if : is like else
[22:11] <aadamson> actually that's not true either
[22:11] <mikestir_> it's for assignment tho. it's a bit like the IF function in excel
[22:11] <Lunar_Lander> xD I missed the thing about the CRT in the scope and the English labels :D
[22:12] <mikestir_> (test) ? <value if true> : <value if false>
[22:12] <aadamson> ? is like if the left of : is like true the right of : is like false
[22:12] <aadamson> yeah what mikestir_ staid
[22:12] <aadamson> said
[22:12] <Willdude> Right
[22:12] <aadamson> We're going to get you to pointers yet...
[22:12] <mfa298> Willdude: have you got your code working for the single letter (two changes should make it compile)
[22:13] <Willdude> Yes
[22:13] <Willdude> Now I just can't figure how to get it iterating over the key and input
[22:13] <mfa298> In terms of itterating through a string, didn't you do that a while ago in your tracker code - when you were sending a rtty string.
[22:14] <Willdude> Ahaha
[22:14] <Willdude> *aha
[22:14] <aadamson> strings are terminted in null so start at the beginning and go til the null, then reset
[22:14] Nick change: mikestir_ -> mikestir
[22:14] <Willdude> Ah so like if byte is null, go to beginning?
[22:14] <aadamson> yup
[22:15] <Willdude> mfa298 in arduino you have void loop
[22:15] <aadamson> you can either do a a[i] != null do something or you can use pointers
[22:15] <Willdude> It just did that
[22:15] <aadamson> and actually in C, it may be NULL or it make need to be '/0'
[22:16] <aadamson> depends on the compiler
[22:16] <mikestir> it should be '\0' or just the integer 0
[22:16] <mikestir> NULL is supposed to be (void*)0
[22:16] <aadamson> he has been in code review
[22:16] <aadamson> :)
[22:16] <mikestir> however they all have the same actual numerical value
[22:16] <mikestir> yes I'm in super-pedant mode
[22:17] <mfa298> the arduino stuff is basicly just void main(void) { setup(); while (1){ loop()} }
[22:18] <mfa298> I thought when you wrote your tracker code you had something that worked through the rtty string and sent a character at a time to a function to transmit that character.
[22:18] <mfa298> change a couple of words in that sentence and I think that will sound very much like what you're trying to do now.
[22:20] <Willdude> Could I use a ? statement
[22:21] <Willdude> Like (argv[1][i] == null) ? i = 0 : i++?
[22:21] <mikestir> you should use that extremely sparingly. just having learnt of its existance isn't a good reason!
[22:22] <Willdude> Right, so I could use a switch I suppose
[22:23] <mikestir> why a switch?
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[22:23] <Willdude> Because it could reset i based on it?
[22:23] <Willdude> IDK, I want something that'll fit in the for loop
[22:24] <mfa298> why do you need switch rather than an if statement
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[22:25] <Willdude> I suppose I could use one, looks unneat tho
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[22:26] <mikestir> what do you have to do exactly?
[22:26] <mikestir> are you supposed to wrap indefinitely?
[22:28] <Willdude> Until it is done iterating through the string
[22:28] <Willdude> So it iterates through the key until the string has finished being ciphered
[22:29] <mikestir> I'd use a pointer
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[22:29] <mikestir> but if you want to use an index you can do it with a simple if
[22:30] <Willdude> Eurgh this is complex
[22:30] <mikestir> remember you want to test if the _next_ character in the key is null, and if it is then go back to the start instead
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[22:31] <aadamson> I think he's going to need to look at nested something, either while, for, do, etc and some control logic inside
[22:32] <mfa298> sounds like the solutions just needs a while loop, a couple of counters and an if statement
[22:32] <mikestir> it needs a for loop for the string being enciphered, and a counter for the position in the key
[22:32] <mikestir> and the if statement
[22:33] <Willdude> So one for loop for the string, and a while within that
[22:33] <mikestir> you don't need an inner loop. you only step through the key at the same rate as you step through the input string, right?
[22:33] <mikestir> or have I misunderstood that?
[22:33] <mfa298> I think it should only need a for loop or a while loop
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[22:34] <mikestir> agreed. A while loop if you were using pointers, otherwise probably a for is more appropriate
[22:35] <Willdude> mikestir, I think that's right
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[22:41] Action: mikestir has a thread-safety issue
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[22:42] <Willdude> Right, so trying to check if null
[22:42] <Willdude> But null is an int
[22:43] <Willdude> So it's invalid
[22:44] <mfa298> you want the null character - as in the character that's at the end of all strings
[22:44] <mfa298> which isn't quite the same as NULL
[22:44] <Willdude> So just '\0'?
[22:44] <mfa298> thats the one
[22:45] <mfa298> mikestir: thread issues, they're always fun.
[22:46] <mfa298> I think I solved my thread issues in some code earlier this week with a liberal addition of mutexes - at least I've not seen weird character on the screen anymore which would suggest it's fixed
[22:48] <mikestir> yeah I may get away with that. It's in the IP stack somewhere though
[22:48] <bertrik> when I did some FPGA programming, I found that having multiple threads in a piece of software is a bit similar to having multiple clock domains in hardware
[22:49] <Willdude> Oh dear, a segfault http://i.imgur.com/JTAsaFp.png
[22:50] <Willdude> It must be going beyond an array or trying to
[22:50] <mikestir> well you can't use the same index variable for the string and the key for a start
[22:51] <Willdude> Ah
[22:51] <Willdude> Wasn't passing the parameter
[22:52] <mikestir> and the bounds of your loop should be the length of the string, not the key
[22:53] <Willdude> Seems the condition is always true
[22:53] <Willdude> Fixed that
[22:53] <mfa298> whilst it's out of scope for this exercise passing the cipher key on a command line is bad practice
[22:53] <Willdude> mfa298 their checking tool does it tho
[22:54] <mfa298> that's why I said out of scope for this exercise as I assumed that you had to do it that way for the exercise.
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[22:55] <Willdude> Yeah
[22:55] <Willdude> I can't tell why the condition is always false
[22:56] <mfa298> this is potentially where the well placed printf with well chosen values can be a useful tool. I might have had additional values in the current printf to show the input and output values as well as the index for the string and cipher.
[22:56] <mikestir> is the string longer than the key?
[22:56] <mfa298> that way you can work out in your head what should be happening and see on the screen if it matches.
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[22:59] <Lunar_Lander> evening S_Mark
[22:59] <S_Mark> evening
[23:00] <Willdude> So it will always get to a null char
[23:00] <Willdude> But it should be done and out of the for loop by then
[23:01] <mikestir> did you separate the counter variables yet?
[23:02] <Willdude> ahah
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[23:03] <Willdude> This isn't letting me define two variables
[23:03] <Willdude> http://i.imgur.com/BHbQ35w.png
[23:04] <mikestir> declare them outside the for
[23:05] <mfa298> personally I'd probably have everything dealing with j outside the for loop
[23:05] <mikestir> I would
[23:07] <mikestir> you could also think about the difference between j++ and ++j, and how that might be useful
[23:08] <mfa298> I was thinking the same.
[23:09] <Willdude> Oh wait I have to wrap it around
[23:09] <mfa298> thinking about it you could do it with a single counter, but you'd need a % in there - this isn't a suggestion for you to try Willdude.
[23:09] <Willdude> Ahah
[23:09] <mikestir> yeah I suppose you could - modulus is expensive though
[23:10] <Willdude> I will need a function that performs the inverse of getalphapos
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[23:12] <Willdude> Hmm this does the stuff differently to the caesar code
[23:15] <g0pai_ian> Willdude* No one answered your clamp plug question . . . Yes you need to solder the pin.
[23:16] <Willdude> Ah thanks
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[23:20] <Willdude> Something is wrong with this line, in that it's not computing it correctly
[23:22] <Willdude> Link coming
[23:22] <Willdude> http://is.gd/tequne
[23:24] <mfa298> Willdude: think about what the result of isupper('Z' + 'Z')
[23:25] <Willdude> false
[23:25] <Willdude> Ah I see
[23:25] <mfa298> also why the %26 for the getalphapos argument ?
[23:26] <mfa298> that isupper question might not quite apply at the moment - you made more changes to the code than I was expecting.
[23:27] <mfa298> it looks like you've gone from something that was close to doing the encipher process correctly to I'm not really sure what it's trying to do
[23:28] <Willdude> The %26 should mean that it will wrap around
[23:28] <Willdude> I forgot to add the cipher in that code
[23:28] <mfa298> did you add it because of the comment I made earlier - the one that said it wasn't a suggestion for you to try ?
[23:29] <mikestir> I think I see what you're trying to do
[23:29] <mikestir> the modulus should be outside the getalphapos arguments
[23:29] <mikestir> and after you add the key value
[23:29] <Willdude> I'm just trying to make it wrap around
[23:29] <Willdude> such that Z+1 = A
[23:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> Updated movie for the whole of the flight! http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2014_Flights/MJH-1_20140307/index.php?ind=1
[23:30] <Willdude> It is outside of the getalphapos
[23:30] <Willdude> now
[23:31] <Willdude> But it's priting nothing - some debug statements needed
[23:31] <mfa298> also until you *really* understand what's happening it's worth seperating things onto seperate lines, that way adding printf statements becomes much easier.
[23:32] <mfa298> even when you do understand it I'd probably have the getascii and getalphapos calls seperated out.
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[23:40] <Willdude> Right
[23:42] <Willdude> Getalphapos is doing something wrong, but I don't know what
[23:42] <Willdude> It should work fine
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[23:46] <Willdude> It worked with caesar and I was pretty much doing the same thing
[23:46] <g0pai_ian_> It's compiled and optimised by the compiler, so there is probably no good reason to not write it clearly with future maintenance in mind. That makes life easy for someone else, if not yourself.
[23:47] <g0pai_ian_> Normally when maintaining a program written by someone else, it is good to adopt the original style rather than mix styles. It can be unsettling, so best that everyone gets it nice and uniform from the get go.
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[23:49] <mikestir> and if only everyone would agree on tabs vs spaces :)
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[23:50] <Willdude> g0pai_ian it wasn't written by someone else
[23:52] <Willdude> So getalphapos is failing somehow, and must be returning 0 or something
[23:57] <mikestir> I was thinking about that - it will return 0 for anything that isn't a letter, which I guess isn't what you want
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[23:59] <mfa298> If getascii is supposed to do what I think it's supposed to it won't work.
[23:59] <Willdude> It is - if it's not a letter, I don't want it to shift
[00:00] --- Sat Mar 8 2014