highaltitude.log.20140305

[00:00] <torq> eroomde: Yeah. Was going to do L1 last week but it got cancelled due to rain.
[00:00] <fsphil> nite all
[00:01] <torq> And it was so windy it would have got lost anyway. Maybe when the weather is better
[00:01] <eroomde> torq: which launch site?
[00:01] <torq> Ears
[00:02] <Lunar_Lander> good ngiht!
[00:02] <Lunar_Lander> night
[00:02] <eroomde> torq: cool, i know it
[00:03] <eroomde> have launched a fair few balloons from there, and a couple of rockets
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[00:03] <torq> Fields are all flooded. Rocket would probably have gone underwater
[00:04] <eroomde> ouch
[00:05] <WillTablet> I might might might be able to go to the conference this year btw
[00:05] <WillTablet> Unlikely, but they haven't said no to the RSGB convention yet. Which is weird
[00:05] <torq> I saw someone mentioned consultation. Any chance aprs would be allowed on rockets?
[00:06] <eroomde> possibly, it's all very early-days, from what i can see
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[00:06] <eroomde> but i'm not sure aprs is a great fit for rockets
[00:06] <eroomde> 2m is a seriosuly long wavelength
[00:06] <eroomde> from an antenna pov
[00:06] <torq> Is there a source for this info? What alternatives are there
[00:07] <eroomde> which info?
[00:07] <torq> Yes I am thinking about big range specifically.
[00:07] <eroomde> altenratives? anything higher freq!
[00:07] <WillTablet> eroomde: pm
[00:07] <torq> Consultations with of com?
[00:08] <eroomde> oh i'm not sure, i don't keep up
[00:08] <eroomde> i decided that getting an experimental permit is 1000x easier than waiting for amateur stuff to catch up
[00:08] <torq> 2m antenna wouldn't be hard to deploy at apogee :)
[00:08] <eroomde> there was a fair chunk of discussion on the ukhas mailing list
[00:09] <eroomde> and others on here seem much more in touch with ham stuff
[00:09] <mfa298> I don't think the actual ofcom consulatation has started yet (although might have been due to start around now)
[00:09] <eroomde> sure but it would be nice to have a link throughout the flight
[00:09] <torq> That is interesting so one off experimental permits are allowed?
[00:09] <eroomde> i don't think there are many igates in scotland either
[00:09] <eroomde> so aprs might not make so much sense
[00:09] <eroomde> torq: yes
[00:10] <eroomde> in as much as you are given permission legally to use certain freqs/powers at certain locations
[00:10] <WillTablet> Guys, what is this consultation? As in what does it actually mean? Does the rsgb just poke ofcom for a couple of hours?
[00:10] <torq> Don't need igates to get a mesh going for localised rocket locating?
[00:10] <WillTablet> Are they a load of closed meetings?
[00:11] <mfa298> WillTablet: ofcom will probably put out a set of papers and ask for responses
[00:11] <eroomde> WillTablet: yes, also with black helicopters
[00:11] <WillTablet> Nice
[00:11] <eroomde> torq: if you yourself are the igate, that works
[00:11] <WillTablet> I love black helicopters
[00:11] <eroomde> but it's basically just point-to-point comms
[00:11] <torq> mfa298: Ah! Sounds like you know. What is the consultation about?
[00:11] <mfa298> one of those responses will probably be from RSGB, then ofcom will make up their minds (and possibly talk to relevant groups (RSGB / CAA)
[00:11] <eroomde> so specifically wanting to use aprs is kinda rbitrary
[00:11] <WillTablet> Black helicopters with guns and aa missiles are cool
[00:12] <torq> eroomde: Yes but we would need repeaters on the mountain tops
[00:12] <torq> WillTablet: I prefer quadcopters with guns
[00:12] <eroomde> ah yes
[00:13] <eroomde> if you install it then that'd work
[00:13] <eroomde> it's a lot of logistics tho
[00:13] <mfa298> torq: the ofcom consultations will potentially be about the subjects listed on http://rsgb.org/main/rsgb-consultations/consultation-archive/ under the license review part
[00:13] <eroomde> the peaks are far apart up there
[00:13] <torq> mfa298: Thanks for that
[00:13] <WillTablet> I can just picture all the ofcom guys in their nice suits landing by helicopter
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[00:14] <eroomde> there are good peaks around though
[00:14] <mfa298> the one that's mainly of interest here is the airborne use one. As to whether anything happens that may well be down to the CAA
[00:14] <torq> Will ofcom track me down and take me out if I use a 900mhz tracker in the UK?
[00:14] <eroomde> a friendly person with a plane might work well
[00:15] <eroomde> probably not
[00:15] <eroomde> it would be a negligent RSO though
[00:15] <eroomde> but their expertise probably would lie elsewhere
[00:15] <torq> Worse that can happen? People lose a couple of bars on their mobile phone?
[00:16] <mfa298> there's some license exampt space at 868mhz so you may be able to easily convert stuff to that - although I think it's lower power for 100% duty cycle.
[00:16] <eroomde> no mobile signal at ben armine :)
[00:17] <g0pai_ian> What's the flight time of the rocket?
[00:17] <torq> 2-3 min or so
[00:17] <WillTablet> torq: yes, BTDT, they landed a helicopter in my garden and dragged me in to it
[00:17] <mfa298> if you're on a frequency that clashes with mobile networks the worst is probably that everyones phone thats searching for a network interferes with you getting your data
[00:17] <g0pai_ian> If questioned, then you thought the duty cycle was averaged over the hour!
[00:17] <eroomde> lol
[00:17] <eroomde> good thinking g0pai_ian
[00:18] <eroomde> i like it
[00:18] <torq> WillTablet: I'm sorry. Did they put a probe in you?
[00:18] <WillTablet> A probe?
[00:18] <g0pai_ian> Nothing sharp then!
[00:19] <LeoBodnar> duty cycle averaging period is specified in the rules
[00:20] <torq> WillTablet: Not a Simpsons fan? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartman_Gets_an_Anal_Probe
[00:20] <LeoBodnar> oh dear
[00:21] <eroomde> (south park)
[00:22] <Laurenceb_> " The episode was criticized for its crude imagery, particularly the grotesqueness of Cartman's obesity and inability to control his flatulence"
[00:23] <eroomde> we all know that guy
[00:23] <torq> I'm sorry to lower the tone of the conversation ...
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[00:27] <LeoBodnar> how a cartoon be criticised for "crude imagery"?
[00:27] <LeoBodnar> Was it not in HD?
[00:28] <torq> So... I only discovered HAB a couple of hours ago as was looking for rocket tracking methods.
[00:28] <LeoBodnar> pretty similar problems actually
[00:28] <torq> Looks really interesting. Saw on a tracking website that a balloon from Tunisia landed near Chelmsford
[00:29] <torq> How do you know whether it's been recovered or someone is about to recover it?
[00:29] <LeoBodnar> oh?! i bet it was a glitch
[00:30] <LeoBodnar> there were a very few balloons in Africa
[00:30] <LeoBodnar> hold on, do you have a link?
[00:30] <LeoBodnar> with recent wind patterns that is not impossible
[00:32] <torq> http://habitat.habhub.org/mobile-tracker/
[00:32] <torq> The balloon is called CHEAPO
[00:33] <craag> Ah yes that was a glitch
[00:33] <torq> Ah ok
[00:33] <craag> It's always been in Chlemsford
[00:33] <torq> Seems a pretty major glitch
[00:33] <craag> Oh in fact the prediction shows it landing in africa
[00:33] <craag> Was that what you were looking at?
[00:33] <craag> The cloud and target symbols?
[00:34] <torq> Well I've never seen the website before. Now you explained it that makes more sense
[00:34] <LeoBodnar> this is a prediction
[00:34] <craag> Ok yeah so if it was ascending, given the rate that the website has guessed it's ascending, it would be carried by the wind in the direction of the red line and burst over africa.
[00:35] <LeoBodnar> http://spacenear.us/tracker/?filter=CHEAPO
[00:35] <craag> But it's not ascending, jsut the gps is reporting slightly higher altitude, and so that's why the prediction goes so far.
[00:35] <LeoBodnar> However B-32 clipped a bit of Tunisia http://leobodnar.com/balloons/B-32/index.html
[00:36] <torq> The website takes account of multi level winds and predicts paths on the fly?
[00:36] <craag> torq: Yes
[00:36] <torq> Impressive
[00:37] <craag> If you watch it when there's actually a flight going on, it'll make a lot more sense.
[00:38] <craag> The prediction software was written by the Cambridge Uni Spaceflight Society, and it reruns with current NOAA wind data for every new bit of telemetry
[00:38] <torq> Is there a list of planned flights?
[00:38] <torq> LeoBodnar: Your link didn't work for B32
[00:39] <craag> Flights will generally be announced on our mailing list here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ukhas
[00:39] <eroomde> torq: ukhas mailing list is the place to be
[00:39] <LeoBodnar> there are no APRS igates in that part of Africa
[00:39] <eroomde> ]low volume, where flights get announced
[00:39] <eroomde> we like rockets too
[00:39] <eroomde> not just balloons
[00:39] <eroomde> i try and fly the flag for rockets
[00:40] <eroomde> in a limited way
[00:40] <craag> I'd like more rockets around here
[00:40] <LeoBodnar> me too
[00:40] <torq> Will join. Really interesting. I'm actually only a mile away from EARS.
[00:40] <eroomde> cool
[00:40] <eroomde> well cambridge is a definite balloon hotspot
[00:41] <eroomde> it has rocketboy and cusf
[00:43] <torq> Who is rocketboy?
[00:43] <torq> Real name?
[00:43] <eroomde> steve randall
[00:43] <torq> Pass must be one of the uni guys
[00:43] <eroomde> nope
[00:43] <eroomde> ears regular
[00:44] <eroomde> was on the committee for a while
[00:44] <eroomde> and one of the very early habbers
[00:44] <torq> Oh ok. Still working out who is who.
[00:44] <eroomde> there are a few uni guys here though
[00:47] <LeoBodnar> good night chaps
[00:47] <eroomde> me 2
[00:47] <eroomde> nn
[00:47] <craag> gn all
[00:49] <torq> Night
[00:49] <g0pai_ian> night
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[09:08] <DL7AD> morning
[09:09] <fsphil> morning
[09:09] <DL7AD> hi fsphil
[09:10] <DL7AD> did you test the code yet? fsphil
[09:11] <fsphil> not yet
[09:14] <g0pai_ian> Good Morning gents.
[09:15] <g0pai_ian> Does anyone know what is the maximum length string that DL_FLDIGI will correctly verify a checksum on? I currently don't have DL_FLDIGI on my box and will need to build it as it's not in my distros repos.
[09:16] <craag> g0pai_ian: You can install it from the ppa
[09:16] <g0pai_ian> PPA?
[09:17] <craag> https://launchpad.net/~simrunbasuita/+archive/dl-fldigi
[09:17] <craag> (assuming a debian-based system)
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[09:17] <fsphil> debian users always do :)
[09:17] <LeoBodnar> morning *
[09:17] <g0pai_ian> Reading, back soon . . .
[09:18] <fsphil> the limit is 1000 characters
[09:19] <fsphil> which is still too high
[09:19] <g0pai_ian> Ubuntu specific . . . RPM based distro SUSE here. I will have to build.
[09:19] <craag> g0pai_ian: Ah, talk to mfa298
[09:19] <craag> I think he had some rpm builds
[09:20] <fsphil> it's very simple building it on fedora, suspect suse will be the same
[09:23] <g0pai_ian> Many thanks Phil and fsphil. Noted on speaking with mf298 re rpm builds. Academic at the moment, but I have other messaging uses for FL_DIGI also in mind. I have been stretching Upu's example code to gain understanding.
[09:25] <g0pai_ian> If things can't be said in around 200 chars for messages then I agree with fsphil that it's a bit big, but there is slack in there. When 990 char messages continually fail the checksum because of the link then smaller messages will be seen as a more sensible ooption.
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[09:26] <fsphil> the trouble with long messages is the odds of a bad character appearing are higher
[09:27] <craag> The longest string I've ever used was 65 characters
[09:27] <craag> I try to keep most below 40
[09:27] <g0pai_ian> Yes, that was what I was angling at. Ok on the Fedora, I think that it might be possible to install the RPM.
[09:27] <daveake> If this is for HAB, remember that habitat supports multiple sentence formats for the same payload, so (e.g.) you could send position messages frequently then a different (e.g. sensor data) message less frequently, rather than putting everything into one long sentence (like this one).
[09:28] <fsphil> that's the best way
[09:29] <g0pai_ian> G'morning Dave. Looking at other uses also. I normally use FLDIGI, but am playing at the moment.
[09:29] <daveake> ok did wonder when you didnt say "dl-"-fldigi
[09:31] <g0pai_ian> Yes, use it for PSK31 mainly, but not a lot. Thinking of messaging in another application area. Sort of wearing two hats.
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[09:41] <mfa298> g0pai_ian: there's rpms for Fedora18/19/20 at http://rpm.yapd.net/
[09:41] <mfa298> I should also have src rpms although not sure if they're synced to the server
[09:43] <mfa298> if you're building from source be warned that the rtty decoder in the latest versions seems a bit suspect.
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[09:48] <mfa298> there's a bunch of SRPMS in http://rpm.yapd.net/SRPMS/
[09:48] <g0pai_ian> mfa298* Many thanks, I will investigate further and tread cautiously. Thanks for the warning. Worst case scenario I will put it onto a netbook running WIndows
[09:48] <daveake> How can that be "worst"? :p
[09:49] <mfa298> if you go down the source route if you git clone, then git checkout the current stable hash and use that it should work well.
[09:50] <fsphil> yea all my copies use an older version
[09:50] <mfa298> although with linux watch out for the pulse audio frustrations (if you're using an sdr receiver
[09:52] <fsphil> PA needs an option somewhere to tell it not to do anything with the audio, just pass it along
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[09:57] <g0pai_ian> Thanks, I have just downloaded dl-fldigi-3.1.6fc18.src and will give that a spin this afternoon and see what it breaks . . . !
[09:57] <g0pai_ian> I'm currently using SUSE 12.2 so not exactly up to date.
[09:59] <mfa298> could be worth a shot of the compiled rpms - although that could become dependancy hell.
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[10:00] <mfa298> if you don't have any luck I can dig out the raw spec and source files (although that should all be inside the src rpms.
[10:00] <g0pai_ian> I think that there is a facility to get RPM to let me know what I'm in for. I'm a cautious lad, and will go for a safe option.
[10:01] <fsphil> I was looking at UI toolkits for a potential cross-platform replacement for fldigi. not sure I liked any of them
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[10:01] <g0pai_ian> Don't waste a lot of time on me, I think you have better things to be doing and appreciate your help, but lets not get too excited,
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[10:02] <g0pai_ian> I have a netbook which can always be pressed into service.
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[10:03] <g0pai_ian> Time to go and mix some jollop for the bees. Back later. rivetting reading on here. Lots of info to glean :-) BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING!
[10:04] <eroomde> there's a dark humour in that launch announcement just maield to the list
[10:04] <eroomde> listeners appreciated as there are not that many around at the moment in odessa
[10:04] <fsphil> indeed
[10:04] <fsphil> it's likely to land in russia
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[10:11] <jededu> Im just playing with this layout is there any reason why the groundplane cant go under the NTX2 or is the uBlox too close anyway http://www.primarypi.co.uk/images/tracker3.pdf
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[10:19] <eroomde> jededu: as it is that'll probably be ok
[10:19] <eroomde> but really it's betetr to keep their ground planes separate
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[10:19] <eroomde> you definitely want decoupling capacitors by the gps's power input
[10:20] <eroomde> well, there's a whole bunch of things you could tweak on that board, as i'm sure you know (you're just getting to grips with pcb layout iirc?) so I'll save all that
[10:23] <jededu> Thanks eroomde in that case i will move the GPS over a little, the power regs are switching with built in caps and a lot smaller its just the footprint is TO220 this it the first attempt :)
[10:23] <eroomde> sure
[10:23] <eroomde> but decoupling caps are not the same thing as the caps in your reg
[10:23] <eroomde> they are for a different purpose
[10:23] <jededu> Ah yes i know what you mean sorry
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[10:24] <eroomde> i strong recommend digesting this article over a coffee
[10:24] <eroomde> http://www.maximintegrated.com/app-notes/index.mvp/id/5450
[10:24] <fsphil> pesky physics, getting in the way of perfect conductors
[10:25] <eroomde> there's a lot of very good stuff in it about how to do good pcb layout when you have lots of mixed signals
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[10:25] <eroomde> (v sensitive gps, a noisy transmitter, digital switching circuits, etc)
[10:25] <jededu> Yes to reduce noise ?
[10:25] <eroomde> exactly
[10:26] <eroomde> it's sort of like trying to make a fox, a chicken and a bag of grain coexist on a pcb
[10:26] <jededu> I add them
[10:26] <eroomde> you need to be tactical
[10:26] <fsphil> that's a mental image I didn't expect
[10:27] Nick change: ms7821_ -> ms7821
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[10:28] <jededu> Good article ill keep that one
[10:28] <eroomde> it's good, it probably covers everything you need to know in a short space
[10:29] <eroomde> and especially emphasises the need for thinking about ground return paths
[10:29] <eroomde> several guys on here have had gps's not work, or switch-mode power suppplies not stabilize, because of ground return paths
[10:29] <eroomde> (bad ground return apths, that is)
[10:30] <eroomde> ibanezmatt's new pcb has a particularly good power supply layout, iirc
[10:30] <eroomde> he's really thought about it
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[10:33] <Laurenceb> http://antyweb.pl/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/If+Microsoft+Windows+were+a+hammer_490b8d_3924408-600x400.jpg
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[10:34] <LeoBodnar> i disagree [10:19] <eroomde> but really it's betetr to keep their ground planes separate
[10:34] <LeoBodnar> why do you want to separate two grounds?
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[10:36] <eroomde> i meant, if they're physically close, i'd probably put a plit in the ground plane in between, so that i could control where the grounds met
[10:36] <eroomde> i.e., a star ground
[10:36] <LeoBodnar> but your power source is only on one of them
[10:36] <eroomde> a star ground
[10:36] <LeoBodnar> so you insert impedance into a ground path
[10:36] <eroomde> i didn't literally mean 2 separate grounds
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[10:36] Nick change: cuddykid_ -> cuddykid
[10:37] <nats`> even a cut can be harmful
[10:37] <eroomde> the same ground, i'd just control the shape of it to make sure the return paths are as i want
[10:37] <nats`> better no cut than a cut done without thinking about it extensively
[10:37] <eroomde> sure, cuts can definitely be harmful if done wrong
[10:37] <eroomde> and useful if done right
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[10:37] <nats`> usually on simple board cut are not necessary
[10:37] <nats`> or you did your placement wrong
[10:37] <eroomde> you'll not i linked him to that maxim article that discussing at length when cuts are good and when they're not
[10:37] <Laurenceb> emo pcb
[10:37] <Laurenceb> cuts itself
[10:38] <nats`> :D
[10:38] <LeoBodnar> this split ground idea makes rounds here without anybody have any coherent idea why
[10:38] <nats`> bleed emi everywhere
[10:38] <eroomde> i have a perfectly coherent idea why
[10:38] <LeoBodnar> if you positioned parts correctly you don't need start ground
[10:39] <LeoBodnar> pancake ground is the same as star ground but tonnes better
[10:39] <eroomde> sure, but sometimes you have contraints imposed on your pcb design that are driven by things other than good electronics
[10:39] <nats`> on that last point I agree
[10:39] <nats`> on big design that can arrive
[10:39] <nats`> good idea is usually to add cap around the cut
[10:39] <LeoBodnar> if you have to introduce artificial cuts in the ground to avoid your return current flowing where it wants to go then you have problems from the start
[10:40] <nats`> at least you allow high frequency to go their way
[10:40] <eroomde> yes, that's my point
[10:40] <nats`> yep but sometimes big design are weird
[10:40] <nats`> check the SE4410L
[10:40] <eroomde> sometimes you do have problems from the start
[10:40] <nats`> they put a VCC between two rf pin
[10:40] <eroomde> and controlling the ground plane can help you make it work well enough
[10:40] <nats`> in that case that's a silly conception of the chip
[10:40] <nats`> but clearly I would always avoid cut
[10:40] <nats`> you can be sure you'll have hour of EMI certification to debug
[10:41] <LeoBodnar> but splitting ground on a simple tracker, my goodness
[10:41] <LeoBodnar> *everybody* is doing it
[10:41] <LeoBodnar> *nobody* can explain why beyond "others are doing it"
[10:41] <nats`> yep the problem is forum saying always separate analog from digital
[10:41] <nats`> the maxim link is pretty good for that
[10:42] <nats`> first time I see a documentation explaining it correctly and in simple term
[10:42] <eroomde> i generally don't do stuff because other people are doing it
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[10:45] <DL7AD> ODS-1 is going to be launched today
[10:45] <LeoBodnar> I think have boiled my argument to this: "Split ground prevents return current flowing where it naturally wants (underneath the main track). Why do you do that?"
[10:46] <eroomde> depends on the speed of the signal, sometimes it doesn't go back directly under the outward trace, when you want it to
[10:48] <LeoBodnar> we are talking about a tracker with NTX, UBLOX and a 78L05 on it
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[10:48] <LeoBodnar> not an 8-layer design with 24 bit RF ADCs and FPGA on it
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[10:49] <eroomde> sure, but i woudn't want, say, the sma of a tx within 1cm of a ublox's rf-in, on the same big of contiguous ground
[10:50] <eroomde> that would be a poor design of course that you'd want to avoid in the first place, but equally it's pretty much what someone had done yesterday and it wasn't working
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[10:52] <LeoBodnar> this has nothing to do with the concept of split ground
[10:52] <eroomde> i wouldn't want it because there's still enough fluctation in the ground potential 1cm away from the tx's SMA to be many many dBs higher in strength than the gps signal's the ublox is trying to receive
[10:52] <eroomde> sure it does
[10:53] <eroomde> it's everything to do with a split ground
[10:53] <LeoBodnar> they have also tucked a chip antenna into a corner between massive amount of copper and random pads
[10:53] <eroomde> sure, in specifically that case
[10:53] <eroomde> but generally
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[10:55] <LeoBodnar> At least I know who has started pushing this idea around
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[10:56] <eroomde> who?
[10:56] <Hix> Hurrah - my IRC client has finally allowd me to join. or was i banned?
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[10:57] <fsphil> wb
[10:57] <daveake> Quick ban him :p
[10:57] <Hix> :D
[10:58] <Hix> there's a weird yellow celestial body looming above the office, anyone know what it is?
[10:58] <LeoBodnar> [10:19] <eroomde> jededu: as it is that'll probably be ok [10:19] <eroomde> but really it's betetr to keep their ground planes separate
[10:58] <fsphil> a collapsing nuclear fusion reactor
[10:59] <SpeedEvil> Hopefully not collapsing
[10:59] <daveake> Slowly
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[10:59] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: firstly - that's not enough to conclude that i'm the origin of this notion of splitting ground planes in general
[10:59] <SpeedEvil> It's my understadning that the radius of a sun-like star does not significantly change
[10:59] <SpeedEvil> until it starts to burn helium
[10:59] <LeoBodnar> I [thankfully] didn't learn the concept of splitting groundplanes before I was well into designing things that worked
[10:59] <daveake> what a waste that would be :p
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[11:00] <eroomde> 2) in this situation (which granted i'd avoid in the first place) i wouldn't have one solid ground under everything
[11:00] <LeoBodnar> because it is such an esoteric concept
[11:00] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/xlbaci409s70l16/2014-03-05%2010.57.22.jpg
[11:00] <eroomde> i'd probably plit along the dotted line and join them just behind the chips
[11:01] <nats`> why ?
[11:01] <nats`> the current path will not cross it
[11:01] <nats`> but you'll change the DC value of your ground plane
[11:01] <nats`> + you'll create difference in the LF domain on the ground plane
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[11:01] <eroomde> there's enough leakage across! i've measured it
[11:01] <LeoBodnar> you are splitting along the line where there is no current
[11:01] <Hix> what's this weeks take on GPS antennae? Most seem to be using the chipscale lately. I wanted something a little more robust with better gain. Any ideas?
[11:02] <nats`> eroomde maybe you have an impedance mismatch on the line so ?
[11:02] <Hix> Sarantel haven't risen from the ashes have they?
[11:02] <nats`> the current should not leak that way
[11:05] <eroomde> i know it shouldn't in theory, but it does in practice
[11:05] <nats`> could you test something on that specific board ? :)
[11:05] <eroomde> if a microstrip were a perfect transmission mechanism, you'd never need to put cans over parts of the cirtui to protect it from other radiating parts
[11:05] <LeoBodnar> I suspect you have problems with your measurements then
[11:05] <nats`> remove some of the mask on the dotted line
[11:05] <nats`> and solder a ferromagnetic shield
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[11:05] <nats`> but only a wall
[11:05] <nats`> not a full cover
[11:06] <nats`> and with a SA check with proximity probe if you see them
[11:06] <LeoBodnar> this is what clean simple design should look like http://www.element14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/showImage/102-50672-4-188886/AD8302-EVALZ_1.PNG
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[11:06] <LeoBodnar> nobody takes the chainsaw to the ground plane
[11:07] <LeoBodnar> apart from #ha tracker builders en masse
[11:07] <eroomde> i wouldn't plit a ground plane if i was making a breakout board for one single chip that was entirely analogue
[11:07] <eroomde> so what is your point?
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[11:08] <nats`> eroomde your example interest me is it a confidential board ?
[11:09] <nats`> because we saw some phenomen like you describe but that was not return current problem
[11:09] <LeoBodnar> don't these two inputs "affect each other via common ground path" according to your thinking?
[11:09] <nats`> it's was a tx radiating over the board
[11:09] <eroomde> nats`: no that was a thought-experiment board. i wouldn't design a board like that
[11:09] <eroomde> (unless i had some serious contraints on connector positioning)
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[11:11] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: iirc that chip only has like 70dB of dynamic range
[11:12] <eroomde> 60dB, infact
[11:13] <LeoBodnar> it's not about this particular chip, it was a random AD design pulled out from a heap of images
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[11:13] <eroomde> sure, but your design constraints are different depending on your dynamic range requirement
[11:13] <eroomde> so like, i could now show you a spectrum analyser
[11:13] <eroomde> and show you how shielded the tracking generator is from the input
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[11:14] <eroomde> and say that you should be encasisng everything incompartments machined from solid aluminium
[11:14] <eroomde> and that you would never have a trracking gen and input next to each other like that on a vna or specan (which of course you wouldn't)
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[11:16] <eroomde> so for example, i'd take more care if i had a 10dbm tx next to a trace carrying the -130dbm(ish) from a gps antenna
[11:16] <LeoBodnar> we need separate forums for dispensing advice to people with NTX hardware and discussing industrial microwave equipment
[11:17] <eroomde> also, that design uses colpanar waveguides which are are better at containing stuff (for a given size) than microstrips
[11:17] <eroomde> sure, i'm not really arguing that it matters so much on a tracker
[11:18] <eroomde> ublox's are forgiving
[11:18] <nats`> eroomde if your tx and rx are on the same band you'll be likely cutting the rx during tx
[11:18] <nats`> at last on sug ghz band
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[11:18] <nats`> we did test on 868MHz on a home gateway and we had coupling even at more than 10cm
[11:18] <nats`> :|
[11:18] <eroomde> nats`: sure, but that's not the case on: 1) a tracker 2) leo's 8302 eval board 3) a vna
[11:19] <nats`> for the tracker the answer is move yourpart to have a good placemet :)
[11:19] <nats`> for the eval board the answer is we don't care it's an eval board :D
[11:19] <nats`> for the VNA it's we don't care it shielded everywhere :D
[11:19] <nats`> the most critical design are massive production design
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[11:19] <nats`> they need to be cheap ad work
[11:19] <nats`> and
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[11:20] <nats`> this is the hardest point
[11:23] <LeoBodnar> it's like chip antenna
[11:24] <LeoBodnar> it's cheap and it works but needs to be used exactly like it was designed to be used
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[11:24] <LeoBodnar> no point thinking *how* it works
[11:25] <LeoBodnar> because even people who designed it might had no idea
[11:25] <LeoBodnar> they just found a configuration that passed the test and postulated the design and use case
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[11:34] <eroomde> i think you're being stupid now
[11:35] <eroomde> they would have just found a layout where the resonant freq is in the right place and recommended that as the simple use case
[11:36] <eroomde> most antenna manufacturers will help you get your integration right to get the right tunig freq, if the qtys are large enough
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[11:37] <nats`> and they often will advise you against ceramic chip antenna
[11:37] <nats`> it's usually recommended to use stamping antenna in place when possible
[11:37] <eroomde> taoglas also make a kit of patches with slightly different centre freqs for gps (say 5Mhz steps) so you can try loads in your product until you find the one that has the right centre freq after it's been detuned by its surroundings
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[11:37] <nats`> ceramic antenna are too much linked to the PCB design and the place of the pcb in the space
[11:37] <eroomde> yes, chip antennas are terrible in theory
[11:37] <eroomde> they have negative gain
[11:38] <eroomde> they are just the least bad at a desired frequency
[11:39] <nats`> that's the worst part in fact usually when you don't respect the PCB design you don't loose more gain
[11:39] <nats`> you totally detune it
[11:39] <nats`> I'm working on that problem these days for some product in sub ghz
[11:39] <nats`> you have two solution either you take a wider band one
[11:39] <nats`> like 10MHz to cover your range in any case
[11:39] <nats`> or you make a really weird and not pratical pcb shape
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[12:20] <Laurenceb> calling matlab gurus
[12:21] <Laurenceb> what does [b:x] in linecolor do?
[12:21] <LeoBodnar> £0.14 for 500 PCB LEDs. http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?CMP=i-ddd7-00001003&sku=2373407
[12:22] <LeoBodnar> madness. I only wanted two.
[12:22] <LeoBodnar> 1000 arrived
[12:22] <LeoBodnar> for £0.28
[12:22] <daveake> The ordering process led you astray?
[12:22] <LeoBodnar> "Price For: Pack of 500"
[12:23] <daveake> Shirley shum mistake :)
[12:23] <LeoBodnar> reality check fail
[12:23] <daveake> kingcheap
[12:23] <LeoBodnar> this is 0.028 pence each
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[12:24] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[12:24] <gonzo__> expect they will ship one, then start to argue
[12:24] Action: SpeedEvil ordered 30 FPGAs for 15 quid yesterday.
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[12:24] <SpeedEvil> Alas - the same happened.
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[12:27] <gonzo__> brought something in a shop yesterday, that was priced up wrong. The owner was most indignant, at me
[12:28] <daveake> clearly your fault
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[12:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> Price For: Pack of 500
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[12:30] <Geoff-G8DHE> So that was TWO packs ordered ....
[12:30] <gonzo__> forgiving someoen their mistakes is easy, but forgiving someone for witnessing your mistakes.......
[12:31] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah should have kept on reading!
[12:31] <gonzo__> will be interesting to see how they play it
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[12:31] <gonzo__> take snapshots of the sctreen ready for the argument
[12:32] <daveake> yeah, I've done that before
[12:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> Duh we missed ODS-1 passing over ;-) I think not
[12:34] Action: cm13g09 has spent the morning fighting a server.... only to realise he'd hit an Ubuntu (well-documented) bug
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[12:42] <fsphil> ubuntu is a well documented bug?
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[12:44] <LazyLeopard> only one?
[12:48] <mfa298> is that bug Linux :p
[12:48] <craag> Nah, it's the existence of a GUI
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[12:48] <mfa298> (this said I'm currently surrounded by 88 computers, only one of which is windows (for spotify)
[12:49] <cm13g09> lol
[12:49] <cm13g09> no... this bug....
[12:49] <cm13g09> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bug/477167
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[12:50] <cm13g09> Basically... if you're installing onto a software-driven RAID1 array
[12:50] <cm13g09> AND you're using GPT
[12:51] <cm13g09> AND you have a monolithic file system
[12:51] <cm13g09> You will hit that bug :P
[12:51] <cm13g09> mfa298: I know what 80 of them are :P
[12:51] <cm13g09> what about the other 8 :P
[12:52] <mfa298> 2 ubuntu, another 5 like the 80
[12:54] <fsphil> mfa298: spotify have a web client that works rather nicely in linux (with flash)
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[12:54] <fsphil> they have a native linux client too
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[12:58] <mfa298> should have added the windows machine can dualboot to fedora - windows is just easier currently - spotify just works and power managment does the right thing when I close the lid
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[13:21] <LeoBodnar> interesting CRC performance crash-course http://www.ece.cmu.edu/%7Ekoopman/pubs/KoopmanCRCWebinar9May2012.pdf
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[14:07] <Thomas_UKC> Hi, I ordered the NTX2B-434.125-10 radio transmitter. The receiver I got is the NRX2-434.650-10. The transmitter is not suitable for the receiver, is there any chance I can swap the transmitter for one that matches my receiver?
[14:08] <fsphil> you'd have to ask your supplier
[14:08] <UpuWork> who did you get the NRX2 off ?
[14:09] <fsphil> the nrx2 is unlikely to work well over any kind of long distance
[14:09] <UpuWork> The NRX2 is of no use anyway which is why I don't sell them
[14:09] <fsphil> if you're planning on using it for tracking
[14:09] <Thomas_UKC> I ordered the transmitter from here; http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=71_63&product_id=92 . At the bottom of the page it says to refer to this IRC channel - not sure if correct? :-)
[14:09] <Thomas_UKC> Right right
[14:09] <daveake> Yeah, you should have referred to this channel before you bought the NRX2 :p
[14:10] <Thomas_UKC> I also have a GSM transmitter as backup - but looks like I'll just have to do it with that now. Are they any good? Reliable?
[14:10] <UpuWork> as a backup they are ok
[14:10] <daveake> They work sometimes
[14:10] <UpuWork> not a a primary
[14:10] <daveake> 50/50 success rate
[14:10] <Thomas_UKC> OK - so would you suggest I get a refund for the NRX2 and buy a proper receiver?
[14:10] <fsphil> yes
[14:10] <Thomas_UKC> Cheers for all the help :-)
[14:10] <Thomas_UKC> Ok
[14:11] <Thomas_UKC> Thanks for that! Will do that then
[14:11] <Thomas_UKC> Appreciate your help!
[14:11] <fsphil> an rtlsdr-based USB dongle would do the job, ideally with a habamp
[14:12] <Thomas_UKC> Ok - will have to find one of those then. I also have another question! I'm planning to go up to about 3000m - this includes a regular camera. Would you suggest having it in a sealed polystyrene box and a piece of clear plastic in front of the lens to avoid it from fogging up?
[14:12] <UpuWork> 30000m ?
[14:13] <daveake> Don't put anything in front of the lens (assuming you do mean 30,000m)
[14:14] <Thomas_UKC> Alright, yes sorry typo. Does the rest of the camera have to be in a sealed enclosure though?
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[14:15] <eroomde> nope
[14:15] <eroomde> they generate planety of their own heat, they're usually quite happy just naked
[14:16] <Thomas_UKC> awesome, that's some good news then
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[14:17] <Thomas_UKC> Alright, thanks a lot. Going to get on with manufacturing now. Will be back in a few weeks if anyone would like to see the pictures/data
[14:17] <eroomde> you should stick around
[14:17] <daveake> Please come again (more often!)
[14:17] <eroomde> there's good advice here
[14:17] <eroomde> and people can help you track your payload
[14:17] <daveake> There's a high correlation between not being here and something major going wrong
[14:18] <ibanezmatt13> + 
[14:18] <mfa298> it's well worth checking out designs etc here before flying to make sure your not doing something silly.
[14:18] <daveake> and having us lot help track the flight can often mean the difference between a lost or found payload
[14:19] <craag> Thomas_UKC: Is this a university launch?
[14:19] <Thomas_UKC> Okay! Thanks, it's a Uni project so I'm on a very tight budget.. going to try to find the receiver mentioned above for a good price.. if not I'll have to ask around. One of the guys here (a PhD student) is pretty involved on this website (I believe)
[14:19] <Thomas_UKC> Yes it is, University of Kent
[14:20] <Thomas_UKC> So he's already given me very good pieces of advice and he's launched multiple balloons before
[14:20] <Thomas_UKC> off the engineering building here
[14:20] <mfa298> the rtl-sdr is probably cheaper than the nrx - if it costs more than £10 your doing something wrong (although there are still better receivers)
[14:20] <craag> Cool, southampton uni here
[14:20] <Thomas_UKC> https://www.facebook.com/highaltitudeballoon?fref=ts
[14:21] <eroomde> Thomas_UKC: Scott?
[14:21] <Thomas_UKC> Alright, the NRX2 i have was 25...
[14:21] <Thomas_UKC> Michael, called Mad Mike by many here...
[14:21] <eroomde> oh
[14:21] <eroomde> i helped someone called Scott launch several years ago, he was from kent uni
[14:22] <mfa298> for the rtl-sdrs either use ebay if you can wait to get it from China or look on cosycave
[14:22] <eroomde> http://ukhas.org.uk/projects:orion
[14:22] <Thomas_UKC> Oh, I didn't know his name but I know who he is
[14:22] <Thomas_UKC> Okay, thanks so much!
[14:22] <eroomde> i was an undergrad at the same time as him
[14:23] <Thomas_UKC> He doesn't have the best reputation... most people here thought his project was too busy and "just stuck it on someone elses payload and got it tracked"
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[14:24] <Thomas_UKC> too easy*
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[14:24] <Thomas_UKC> but dont know, i never saw it. cant judge. anyways - i appreciate all your help
[14:24] <craag> Looks like that guy solo-tracks - trust me it's weel worth getting the community involved in the receiving of the data.
[14:24] <craag> *well
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[14:25] <craag> Also you get the payload plotted on http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[14:25] <craag> (I notice from his pictures he's looking up the positions manually in google maps)
[14:25] <eroomde> Thomas_UKC: um, i think that's what he did
[14:26] <eroomde> it was one of our trackers
[14:26] <eroomde> he turned up with something i didn't think would work
[14:26] <eroomde> so i put on one of ours in addition
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[14:29] <mfa298> if you're sticking cameras or other expensive things in the payloads it's potentially a good idea to add someone elses tested tracker on the balloon train as well as your own. Often bugs show up during the flight at which point it's usually too late to fix them.
[14:32] <Thomas_UKC> Right right, so would you suggest I launch it from your launch site in Cambridge?
[14:32] <Thomas_UKC> The project is pretty much finished apart from the radio transmission so going to spend another week or so on that
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[14:32] <eroomde> i've graduated
[14:32] <eroomde> so i'm not the guy to ask
[14:32] <eroomde> try adamgreig
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[14:33] <craag> If you're planning to launch rather soon though, you would need to get a NOTAM otherwise.
[14:33] <mfa298> radio transmission is the part that some groups have spent a lot of time trying to get working - although that could have been due to their choice of platform
[14:35] <Thomas_UKC> Ok - so you guys reckon this will work: http://www.amazon.co.uk/RTL2832U-R820T-DVB-T-DIGITAL-Receiver/dp/B00GKEKAJQ/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1394030061&sr=8-4&keywords=rtl-sdr
[14:35] <Thomas_UKC> it can be pretty tricky :-)
[14:35] <craag> Thomas_UKC: Yes
[14:35] <craag> You'll need a proper antenna too
[14:35] <daveake> You really need to get the radio side done dusted and triple tested
[14:36] <mfa298> what platform are you developing the transmitter with (arduino/ pi/ pic/ gadgeteer/ ...)
[14:36] <Thomas_UKC> atmega328 with arduino bootloader, everything is on my own pbc
[14:36] <Thomas_UKC> pcb*
[14:37] <eroomde> perfect
[14:37] <daveake> ah good
[14:37] <mfa298> good answer
[14:37] <Thomas_UKC> haha good
[14:37] <mfa298> at least one of the options I gave is the *wrong* answer
[14:37] <daveake> :)
[14:37] <Thomas_UKC> pi?
[14:37] <daveake> depends
[14:37] <cm13g09> nope :P
[14:37] <eroomde> gadgeteer, though the pi doesn't get much love here either
[14:37] <Thomas_UKC> pi would be overkill lol
[14:37] <cm13g09> I know what mfa298 was getting at ;)
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[14:38] <Thomas_UKC> i dont even know what gadgeteer is
[14:38] <daveake> good
[14:38] <eroomde> it's fine for what it is, just you get people thinking they need to use one to do the job of a 1MHz mcu because they read an article on gizmodo
[14:38] <eroomde> or something
[14:38] <craag> You don't want to know
[14:38] <LeoBodnar> I have arduino question. Do they opensource stuff that runs on the processor to run the user "code"?
[14:38] <Thomas_UKC> haha
[14:38] <mfa298> gadgeteer is the platform one team used which did take week to get the RF side sort of working.
[14:39] <daveake> The Pi is a good choice if you need what it can do, but for a basic tracker it's overkill and not as reliable or as low power as an AVR
[14:39] <Thomas_UKC> yeah exactly
[14:40] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: yes
[14:40] <eroomde> http://code.google.com/p/arduino/source/browse/#svn/trunk/hardware/bootloaders
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[14:43] <LeoBodnar> I am interested in ARM based arduino http://arduino.cc/en/Main/ArduinoBoardDue
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[14:45] <LeoBodnar> It's very confusing as they seem to use ATmega to ICSP ARM
[14:46] <eroomde> i don't look to arduino for sensible design choices
[14:46] <aadamson> don't they only do that because some of the ARM's don't have dfu on usb natvely, eg. the stm32F1's you can't dfu over usb, you can only do it over serial, so most include a cp2102 or similar to make it easier to flash the arm
[14:47] Action: Laurenceb flashes stm32f1 using RN-41 bluetooth
[14:47] <LeoBodnar> You can upload your code to Atmel ARM via USB
[14:48] <aadamson> Laurenceb, yep, you can do that to as the bluetooth is just another serial device :)
[14:50] <aadamson> I guess think of it this way... Even St puts an f1 running stlink code on their discovery boards to make it easier to *flash* the processor :)
[14:50] <LeoBodnar> Atmel has SAM-BA that uploads code into a clean CPU http://www.atmel.com/tools/ATMELSAM-BAIN-SYSTEMPROGRAMMER.aspx
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[14:52] <aadamson> i do find it funny that even tho there is an arm arduino, it still hasn't caught on like the avr versions... not sure why
[14:53] <aadamson> maybe because they were so late to the game, most people just skipped the wiring environment and just went straight to the cortex-m designs directly
[14:54] <craag> It's also rather pricey unless you need all that i/o
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[14:55] <aadamson> really, have you looked at the f103cb parts from china, you can get them for around $1 US, not the 256k part, but 128k (btw, which is really the 256k part and you just flash it like a cb)
[14:55] <aadamson> c8 parts - sri
[14:55] <craag> I assumed you meant the arduino boards
[14:55] <aadamson> ah, yes
[14:55] <craag> The Due
[14:56] <aadamson> craag, yes, you are correct there
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[14:56] <craag> The arm chips by themselves are silly cheap I know
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[14:56] <aadamson> and give me a break, on their webpage you show a pcb that doesn't have tented vias... lol
[14:57] <craag> James found some 67p cortex M0+s in an 8-pin DIP!
[14:57] <SpeedEvil> yeah - it's kinda silly
[14:57] <aadamson> whoa, I want to play with some of the M0+'s those sound kinda cool... wish you could get them with a little more flash space, but I see the roadmap, that's coming
[14:58] <craag> I'm using the Freescale K25 stuff at the moment, plenty of flash on those.
[14:59] <aadamson> those are m0+'s?
[14:59] <aadamson> ah, just found the betpage
[14:59] <aadamson> webpage
[14:59] <craag> http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/training_information.jsp?code=WBNR_FTF12_ENT_F0006
[15:00] <craag> Sorry KL25
[15:02] <aadamson> hmm, when the L0's from stm make it out those will be nice parts, I need to go see how pin compat they are with the l1/f1's
[15:16] <Laurenceb> i tend to use F1 for everything
[15:31] <aadamson> I used to be that way, but am quickly transistioning over the F3's.... more flash, DSP/FPU, and built it DFU on CAN and USB (plus uart still) and only slightly more expensive
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[15:53] Nick change: The_Doctor -> Adran
[15:55] <LeoBodnar> are you using CAN bus aadamson ?
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[16:05] <nats`> fpga shield for arduino -_-
[16:05] <nats`> "how to blink a LED with 32k of avr bytecode and 32kb xilinx bitstream \o/"
[16:10] <fsphil> could be worse. could be java
[16:11] <cm13g09> fsphil: Shudder - Java!
[16:14] <nats`> fsphil uhhmm not sure :D
[16:14] <nats`> if they did a cpld shield that would make sense
[16:14] <nats`> but the spartan6 they choose can run a softcore faster than the avr himself -_-
[16:14] <eroomde> surely it should be an fpga board to which you can attach an arduino?
[16:16] <fsphil> or just an fpga board
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[16:17] <fsphil> do softcores take up much space in an average sized fpga?
[16:17] <eroomde> depends on the core a lot, as trivially true as that may sound
[16:18] <eroomde> it was more surprising to me just how much the size of cores can vary
[16:18] <eroomde> but certainly your average 8-bit micro shouldn't cause any problems
[16:18] <fsphil> that's neat
[16:18] <eroomde> or a few of them, even
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[16:18] <fsphil> the idea of building your own cpu in code
[16:18] <fsphil> not really emulation
[16:18] <eroomde> yeah
[16:19] <eroomde> my goel is to make a list machine on an fpga soon
[16:19] <eroomde> once i've got through sicp
[16:19] <eroomde> lisp*
[16:19] <eroomde> it'll be a nice learnign exercise
[16:19] <eroomde> and also a way of getting in contact with the ancients
[16:19] <nats`> stack language are more easy to implement in hard
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[16:22] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, just starting to mess with it... nothing specific yet
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[16:42] <LeoBodnar> aadamson: what driver chip do you use? I usually use MCP2551 but it is 5v on the logic side. And one customer keeps blowing them up even thought they are specced to insane bus voltage spike tolerances
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[16:58] <LeoBodnar> not sure what they are doing to them
[16:59] <LeoBodnar> CAN bus pins are good for -250V to +250V transients
[17:00] <LeoBodnar> yet chips come back with a crater in the middle of the package where plastic has been blown out
[17:03] <Laurenceb> lol
[17:03] <Laurenceb> that sounds like massive DC bias and lots of current
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> There really is a market for a built-in scope.
[17:05] <SpeedEvil> 1MHz*8 channels say - hour circular buffer.
[17:05] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: I use the ADM3054
[17:05] <eroomde> no problems with it yet
[17:06] <eroomde> but there are only a few tens of things floating around using it
[17:09] <LeoBodnar> is it 3.3V on the logic side?
[17:09] <eroomde> yep
[17:09] <eroomde> or 5
[17:09] <eroomde> asyiou wish
[17:10] <LeoBodnar> oh it's isolated ground
[17:10] <LeoBodnar> nice
[17:10] <LeoBodnar> thanks
[17:10] <eroomde> i isolate *everything* like that
[17:10] <eroomde> just don't trust other people
[17:10] <LeoBodnar> it's reasonably new chip 2011
[17:11] <eroomde> yep
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[17:16] <LeoBodnar> shows my rl pintime
[17:16] <LeoBodnar> +g
[17:16] <eroomde> ?
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[17:16] <LeoBodnar> if it works, don't change it
[17:16] <LeoBodnar> and it works in 99% of cases
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[17:20] <cuddykid> very brief write up on how HABE 11 was recovered incase any missed the story -> http://habe.acudworth.co.uk/blog/?p=180
[17:20] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:21] <eroomde> nice!
[17:23] <nats`> nice one cuddykid !!!
[17:23] <nats`> now.. let's hand the thief !
[17:23] <nats`> hang
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[17:23] <cuddykid> haha
[17:24] <cuddykid> daveake: have you heard about the news of the missing camera from december's HABE 11 flight?
[17:24] <LazyLeopard> Oh?
[17:25] <daveake> oh?
[17:25] <cuddykid> LazyLeopard, daveake: http://habe.acudworth.co.uk/blog/?p=180 see update :)
[17:25] <LazyLeopard> Cool!
[17:26] <daveake> Great result and nice detective work :)
[17:26] <cuddykid> :)
[17:26] <cuddykid> now just hope that the footage is on the SD card
[17:27] <daveake> I'm pleasantly surprised that the police pursued this kind of case
[17:27] <cuddykid> but i'm surprised the police actually pursued it given the relatively low value of equipment
[17:27] <cuddykid> yep
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[17:27] <SpeedEvil> It's less boring than dealing with proper crime.
[17:27] <cuddykid> especially at the beginning when I was trying to explain how an IP address could lead them to the person(s)
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[17:33] <daveake> I'm guessing the perp isn't getting the reward then :)
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[17:38] <cuddykid> no haha, just a caution instead :)
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[17:40] <cuddykid> should have heard the story they came up with "walking dog, dog came back with bit of polystyrene, went to investigate, took home, went on site, couldn't find how to get in touch (lol), meant to hand it to police but forgot with preparations for christmas"
[17:41] <cuddykid> utter rubbish considering there was not only contact info on the outside but on a laminated card inside and anyone that cannot figure out how to get in touch given my blog link shouldn't be allowed on the internet
[17:42] <daveake> Well, the internet is what nailed them :)
[17:42] <cuddykid> true
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[18:29] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:30] <LeoBodnar> From CAN bus driver IC datasheet: "APPLICATION NOTE: Silent mode may be used to implement babbling idiot protection"
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[18:43] Nick change: PE0SAT_ -> PE0SAT
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[18:48] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[19:10] <Lunar_Lander> it is a strange void
[19:10] <Lunar_Lander> now that the boards are ordered
[19:11] <Lunar_Lander> no idea what to do next
[19:12] <fsphil> solve crime?
[19:14] <Lunar_Lander> hmmm
[19:14] <Lunar_Lander> despite watching the german version of crimewatch regularly, the presented cases never were of the type where I could give any info
[19:14] <Lunar_Lander> basically because nothing shown there happens here
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[19:17] <ibanezmatt13> Lunar_Lander, start to make your next series of Lunar boards. The more the better :P
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[19:18] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> hi mclane
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> well I got one challenge
[19:19] <Lunar_Lander> trying to find out how to get started with my samsung phone which is on order
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[19:20] <fsphil> Lunar P.I. ... "He'll Land you in jail"
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[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> yea :P
[19:27] <Lunar_Lander> so it's my flight anniversary :)
[19:28] <LeoBodnar> has Ukrainian hab flown today?
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[19:34] <fsphil> doesn't seem to have
[19:37] <Babs_> evening fsphil - quick question
[19:38] <fsphil> fire away
[19:38] <Babs_> do we normally look at GPS co-ordinates in ECEF?
[19:38] <Babs_> frame of refence
[19:38] <Babs_> *reference
[19:38] <fsphil> I think that's the one with an x, y, z set of coordinates?
[19:38] <eroomde> LLA
[19:38] <Babs_> yes exactly
[19:39] <eroomde> not ECEF
[19:39] <Babs_> what does lla stand for?
[19:39] <eroomde> lat long alt
[19:39] <eroomde> lla is polar coordinates
[19:39] <eroomde> ecef is cartesian
[19:39] <fsphil> the ubx can return the ECEF-style position in the same packet as time iirc, so it would be a bit quicker
[19:39] <fsphil> but converting it to lat,lng and alt would be a pain
[19:40] <Babs_> i think ultimately to do my pointy thing, the easiest will be to get ECEF co-ordinates for both point on the ground and position of the balloon
[19:40] <eroomde> or ECI
[19:40] <Babs_> as it will make the bearing far easier
[19:40] <Babs_> but that is just maths
[19:41] <eroomde> as ECI is relative to the sun
[19:41] <eroomde> in ECI the x-axis always points at the sun
[19:41] <eroomde> making a gps receiver involves joyful transforming between all these coordinate systems
[19:42] <Babs_> oooo. interesting. so i could send two up and just do a pointy at the eclipse one to get the eclipse from up top
[19:42] <eroomde> as the earth has rotated under the gps sats between the time they tx and the time you rx
[19:42] <eroomde> and so on
[19:42] <Babs_> eroomde - http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/12916023654/
[19:43] <eroomde> great stuff babs
[19:43] <LeoBodnar> UBLOX 7 has data structure that has everything habber ever need
[19:44] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[19:44] <LeoBodnar> *new data structure
[19:44] <eroomde> i find ublox's so overwhelming
[19:44] <Babs_> LeoBodnar - I'm just reading through the ublox manual and working out which of the many ubx things i should poll to get my info
[19:44] <LeoBodnar> it's called NAV-PVT
[19:44] <eroomde> the first thing i do with a new module is find the command to turn *everything* off
[19:44] <Babs_> there are like 4 million or something
[19:44] <eroomde> then gradually turn stuff back on
[19:45] <Babs_> eroomde - that's what I have done
[19:45] <LeoBodnar> this is one single structure that gives you everything
[19:45] <eroomde> :)
[19:45] <LeoBodnar> date, time, position, fix, #sats, accuracy, velocities
[19:45] <LeoBodnar> and some more
[19:46] <Babs_> ahhhh, (0x01 0x07)
[19:46] <Babs_> i am totally into my hexadecimal at the moment
[19:46] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, not ignoring ya... I'll look at the can driver and let you know, don't remember off the top of my head
[19:47] <LeoBodnar> cheers, i have found a few chips since then aadamson but if you have comments - please!
[19:48] <aadamson> will do
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[19:51] <Babs_> Leobodnar, so the message to poll is 0xB5 0x62 0x01 0x07 0x00 0x00 CK_A CK_B (ie whatever i calculate those checkdigits are?)
[19:51] <Babs_> because an empty payload chucks back the information
[19:51] <Babs_> ?
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[19:52] <LeoBodnar> yes
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[19:53] <LeoBodnar>
[19:53] <Babs_> cool. is there any way to generate this in ucenter? i've been able to put the config messages through ucenter and generate the hex codes that way, but I cant seem to find a similar way to do it with the polling versions, other than do it from scratch
[19:54] <Babs_> i guess i could code a simple check digit generator to do the last bit at lease
[19:54] <Babs_> *least
[19:54] <Willdude123> Continuing my vigenere code - had such a crap day my brain actually had a segfault. Coding helps sometimes
[19:54] <LeoBodnar> Upu is the one to ask
[19:54] <LeoBodnar> i have a spreadsheet that calculates them manually
[19:54] <Babs_> ie the checkdigit?
[19:54] <Babs_> or the whole string
[19:55] <LeoBodnar> you should code the checksum calculator in your code anyway
[19:55] <LeoBodnar> to test if the response was valid
[19:55] <Babs_> i've been doing that, i guess it is just generatin gthe checksum which i need to check in the first place
[19:55] <LeoBodnar> so use it to both generate checksum to send to ublox and to calculate on efor the response
[19:55] <Babs_> and excel is the easiest way to do that i guess
[19:56] <Babs_> ok, i understand
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[19:59] <LeoBodnar> Babs_: 0xB5 0x62 0x01 0x07 0x00 0x00 0x08 0x19
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[20:00] <Babs_> is thatthrough your excel sheet? i'm away from my computer but i'm envisaging the string vertically , two formulae in tw columns on the right and a fill down should do it
[20:00] <Babs_> i'll construct it and see whether i get a match with yours there. thanks!
[20:01] <LeoBodnar> yes that's exactly how i did it
[20:01] <LeoBodnar> and then dec2hex()
[20:01] <LeoBodnar> if you are in hex mood
[20:01] <Babs_> cool. right, off for a cuzza. thanks mate
[20:02] <LeoBodnar> welcome
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[20:08] <Willdude> The C compiler isn't letting me take an int as input and instead thinks I'm trying to cast it http://i.imgur.com/traAGkx.png
[20:10] <mclane> "case" is a reserved term, cannot be used as a variable name
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[20:10] <mclane> --> select .... case
[20:11] <mfa298> switch ... case even
[20:11] <mclane> (yea sorry we are in C ;-)
[20:12] <mfa298> select works with collections of sockets (or possibly file descriptors)
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[20:39] <Willdude123_> Sorry my client quit
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[20:57] <Lunar_Lander> http://i.imgur.com/mmxcXbY.jpg
[20:57] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[20:57] <Lunar_Lander> that was something :)
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[21:42] <craag> Lunar_Lander: Was that the river it landed in?
[21:42] <craag> Also iconic drinking straw :)
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[21:44] <eroomde> Lunar_Lander: what's the dark freen band?
[21:44] <fsphil> you mean antenna shape holder device
[21:44] <g0pai_ian> Is there a hidden meaning behind the colour of straw chosen, or is it boringly random? That looks like a cliff face
[21:44] <Lunar_Lander> craag, yes
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> eroomde, that is a mountain band
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> that is interrupted by the river coming through
[21:45] <eroomde> it doesn't look that mountainy
[21:45] <Lunar_Lander> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porta_Westfalica_%28gorge%29
[21:46] <eroomde> thanks
[21:46] <eroomde> v interesting feature
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> you are welcome
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> yeah
[21:46] <Lunar_Lander> the "mountains" are about 350 m high
[21:46] <g0pai_ian> Would that be a gorgeous cliff face then?
[21:48] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[21:55] <Lunar_Lander> Upu, still on?
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[21:59] <SP3OSJ> #habhub
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[22:28] <ibanezmatt13> interesting, my Mum's car has just caught fire
[22:28] <g0pai_ian> Parked at the time?
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[22:30] <ibanezmatt13> ah false alarm, lol
[22:30] <g0pai_ian> I'm assuming that you are at home and have gone to sort it. Rather than your mum rang you up to tell you . . .
[22:30] <ibanezmatt13> She just arrived home and told me to go look at it because there was smoke coming from the bonnet
[22:30] <g0pai_ian> Steam ?
[22:30] <ibanezmatt13> Don't think it's anything serious. If anything should catch fire, it's my Dad's Li-Ion Volvo
[22:31] <ibanezmatt13> maybe, dunno :P
[22:32] Action: fsphil wants an electric car
[22:32] <g0pai_ian> Volvo with a li-ion in the door panels. Grrrrr!
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[22:34] <ibanezmatt13> They have Li-Ions in the doors!?
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[22:35] <g0pai_ian> They work on chocolate I understand. Li-ion bars!
[22:36] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[22:36] <fsphil> oh dear
[22:37] <g0pai_ian> Expensive if a door panel gets stoved in due to being distracted in a parking bay with big columns . . . how do I know . . . :-( sound like a rippling coke can . . .
[22:43] <Reb-SM3ULC> ibanezmatt13: just thought... wasnt it yours dads car that caught fire... if it happened to your moms too... how fun to talk to insurance...
[22:44] <ibanezmatt13> My Dad thought his caught fire yes
[22:44] <ibanezmatt13> turned out it was the auxilary diesel heater
[22:44] <ibanezmatt13> trying to warm it up for him before he got in it one morning :)
[22:44] <WillTablet> So I continued the vigenere cipher and I decided to take all the Caesar code out of it and start from scratch
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[22:45] <ibanezmatt13> Reb-SM3ULC: I got a quote for me to drive a Fiat Panda on my Mum's insurance... £3200
[22:45] <ibanezmatt13> That's me not driving til I'm 30
[22:46] <WillTablet> Whoa
[22:46] <WillTablet> Surely if we just increased the complexity of the driving test, people would have less accidents, therefore insurance would be cheaper
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[22:48] <ibanezmatt13> You'd have thought so. It's supposed to be coming cheaper anyway
[22:49] <Reb-SM3ULC> I pay about 450 euro i think for full insurance
[22:49] <Lunar_Lander> seems like Upu left already
[22:49] <ibanezmatt13> Its crazy. My Uncle used to pay £500 per year for his Porche
[22:50] <WillTablet> Indeed
[22:50] <WillTablet> So my parents are buying a doorbell
[22:50] <WillTablet> And I was just like noooo not more rf
[22:51] <g0pai_ian> I pointed out to my insurance co the work that was estimated but patently not done, to bulk the bill. Insurance co not interested - the scam is endemic. If it isn't thieves, it's motor repairers.
[22:51] <WillTablet> I needz datasheets. I just had the weird urge to read a data sheet, this is weird
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[23:15] <aadamson> some of you guys are rocket nuts right - my L3 certification at LDRS a few years ago :)...69 inches long 6" diameter on a small "M" class motor to 12K feet and put out the parachute there... Kansas is a lovely place for that :)
[23:15] <aadamson> http://youtu.be/_gb2uz33hGk
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[23:18] <LeoBodnar> are you in touch with BALLS guys?
[23:19] <Willdude123> hehehehe ballds
[23:19] <Willdude123> *balls
[23:19] <aadamson> now wrong part of the country for me... Some day I'll go there, I'm from Utah and it's just out in the CA or NV desert
[23:19] <LeoBodnar> cool
[23:21] <aadamson> btw, if anyone is interested or has the ability... I have recipies for most of the experimental propellants
[23:21] <aadamson> was a prior hobby and I collected a bunch of them, made most and experimented some... I've got blues, reds, greens, blacks, sparkies, purples, oranges, whites, etc :)
[23:22] <Laurenceb_> isnt it just APCP with metal salts?
[23:23] <aadamson> i only wish it were that easy
[23:23] <aadamson> so you didn't have a pressure issue
[23:23] <aadamson> yes is the short answer, in the right ratios is the long answer
[23:23] <aadamson> and for the right impulse, etc
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[23:25] <Laurenceb_> i always worry when i see firework displays
[23:25] <Laurenceb_> everyone breathing in really nasty fumes
[23:26] <aadamson> yep... for a while I was doing experimental development had a load cell a nice piece of software etc... also messed with colors and NO2 motors :)
[23:26] <aadamson> pvc is a fun fuel for example
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[23:28] <aadamson> oops slip of the finger... nitousoxide... that is
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[00:00] --- Thu Mar 6 2014