highaltitude.log.20140302

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[08:50] <nosebleedkt> hi all
[08:54] <DL1SGP1> hello nosebleedkt
[08:55] <fsphil> morn
[08:55] <DL1SGP1> Good Morning fsphil :)
[08:55] <daveake> morning all
[08:57] <DL1SGP1> Good morning daveake
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[09:22] <Joel_re> hey
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[09:22] <Joel_re> can anyone point me to some plans for a 70cms yagi antenna?
[09:22] <Joel_re> handheld one
[09:23] <ibanezmatt13> this has been recommended by several people on here: http://www.arrowantennas.com/arrowii/146-3ii.html
[09:24] <Joel_re> ibanezmatt13: ok, I want to build one
[09:25] <number10> http://www.nr6ca.org/70cmyagi.html
[09:25] <Joel_re> thank you number10
[09:26] <number10> here is another design http://df8gh.darc.de/handitenna.htm
[09:26] <jarod> electrical wire antennas are the best :D
[09:27] <Joel_re> hes using brass rods
[09:27] <Joel_re> can I go with aluminium ones?
[09:28] <eroomde> yep Joel_re
[09:29] <eroomde> ali isn't quite as good, conductively speaking
[09:29] <eroomde> but it's small bananas
[09:30] <daveake> I guess those would be conductive
[09:32] <Upu> +1 for the arrow
[09:33] <eroomde> though i think that one is a 2m antenna
[09:33] <eroomde> in the link
[09:33] <eroomde> http://www.arrowantennas.com/arrowii/440-3ii.html
[09:33] <eroomde> not bad at $50
[09:34] <ibanezmatt13> yeah that's the one ^
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[09:52] <number10> did you get one of those arrows Upu / what was shipping cost?
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[10:35] <LeoBodnar> morning *
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[10:56] <LeoBodnar> is anybody flying anything in the UK today?
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[10:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes hundreds of planes taking off from all over the palce ;-)
[10:57] <SpeedEvil> I am about to climb up on top of a pile of insulation.
[10:57] <fsphil> it's a bit windy
[10:57] <SpeedEvil> Hopefully I will not be flying, but you never know.
[10:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> Does that mean you might fill the gap LeoBodnar ?
[10:58] <LeoBodnar> take a tracker with you, that's all I care about :)
[10:58] <LeoBodnar> no, I just need to train my receiver sights on an easy target
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[12:49] <Darkside> LOUD NOISES
[12:49] <Oddstr13> :o
[12:49] <Darkside> >_>
[12:49] <Darkside> <_<
[12:49] <LeoBodnar> thump
[12:50] Last message repeated 2 time(s).
[12:50] <Darkside> ECKY
[12:50] <LeoBodnar> 'ELLO!
[12:50] <Darkside> THUMP
[12:50] <eroomde> worse
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[12:55] <fsphil> what's all that racket?
[12:57] <mfa298> sounded like Leo was dragging something big and heavy out the workshop - So can't be his latest payload then.
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[13:07] <SpeedEvil> mfa298: I draw your attention to the CAA regs.
[13:08] <SpeedEvil> You can launch 10000 balloons of under 2m per 15 minutes.
[13:09] <fsphil> we finally found Leo's limit
[13:10] <daveake> lol
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[13:19] <mfa298> is that a personal limit or a site limit
[13:21] <LeoBodnar> heh
[13:21] <LeoBodnar> if you reach personal limit change your name
[13:24] <mfa298> that's just over 11 a second if you're launching them indivudually.
[13:24] <mfa298> although I'm assuming the limit is thinking more about a lot of balloons launched together at an event.
[13:27] <SpeedEvil> mfa298: it's expressed as 'per square kilometer per 15 minutes'
[13:28] <SpeedEvil> So theoretically, you'd need to make sure no other launches were ongoing
[13:28] <SpeedEvil> IIRC
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[13:31] <mfa298> I see a challenge here - how many ukhas people do we need to gather together to reach that limit where balloons are inflated and released within the time period. For a proper UKHas launch all balloons / cluster of balloons should have a tracker as well.
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[13:32] <Oddstr13> that sounds like a lot of noise on the radio xD
[13:35] <SpeedEvil> Well - if you can do it right - and get balloons that will stay up - with 10K you can make a really decent global network
[13:42] <Willdude123> Is fitting RF plugs difficult?
[13:42] <Willdude123> What type of PL-259 is easiest to fit?
[13:42] <mikestir> compression
[13:43] <mikestir> you need a powerful iron to fit the solder type properly
[13:43] <mikestir> (note properly)
[13:44] <Darkside> or just dont use Pl259 if you can help it
[13:44] <Darkside> all of my radios with SO239 sockets have adaptors to either N or BNC
[13:48] <Willdude123> I can't really help it
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[13:52] <mikestir> the compression type are very easy to fit. You only solder the pin - the braid is clamped
[13:57] <Willdude123> Mhm
[13:57] <Willdude123> Ebaying for compression type pl259 comes up with nothing
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[13:58] <mikestir> search for "deluxe pl259"
[13:59] <eroomde> is that an oxymoron?
[13:59] <mikestir> a bit
[14:01] <mikestir> any pl259 is just a deluxe banana plug :)
[14:03] <Darkside> Willdude123: crimp type
[14:03] <Darkside> not compression
[14:05] <mikestir> http://www.nevadaradio.co.uk/cables-leads-plugs/plugs-adaptors/nevada-uhf-014
[14:06] <Darkside> ehh not a fan
[14:06] <Darkside> i prefr the crimp + solder typ
[14:07] <mikestir> the ones with the crimp sleeve that goes over the cable entry?
[14:07] <Darkside> yeah
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[14:07] <Darkside> thats how most N connectors work too
[14:07] <Darkside> and BNC
[14:08] <Darkside> ok sleep time
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[14:23] <mfa298> +1 for the compression / deluxe pl259 if you have to use them.
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[14:25] <gonzo_> ++, the solder barrel ones are just hideous
[14:26] <gonzo_> and they often have nylon insulators that won't take the heat of soldering
[14:28] <gonzo_> ah, the bat phone is back online
[14:29] <gonzo_> setting out of date
[14:30] <mfa298> I bought a few of the el'cheapo solder barrel ones once. I won't buy them again. The compression ones are much nicer to fit and look like they'll do a better job with the RF (although probably still not ideal)
[14:44] <zyp> gonzo_, if they are meant to be soldered and you destroy them by soldering, you should work on your technique
[14:46] <mfa298> zyp: unless they're the cheap ones desgined for idiots to buy.
[14:46] <mfa298> some of them would probably fall apart if you just looked at the the wrong way.
[14:47] <mikestir> I had some cheap ones and the pins weren't even straight _before_ they were soldered!
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[14:53] <jededu> Need some help with Eagle I have two components outside the board area that I cannot move I have been designing for hours with no problems any ideas?
[14:54] <eroomde> free eagle?
[14:54] <eroomde> if so, you can only move them into the 'free' size limit
[14:54] <eroomde> 100mm x 80mm
[14:54] <eroomde> you can't drag them to any place that is outside that rectangle
[14:58] <jededu> Yes its free eagle when I created them in the schematic it placed them automatically and I need to drag them onto the board I just cant move them odd
[14:58] <eroomde> yes
[14:58] <jededu> And its the last two lol
[14:59] <eroomde> oh you mean you can't move them at all?
[14:59] <eroomde> give me a screenshot
[14:59] <jededu> No stuck
[14:59] <jededu> Ok
[14:59] <eroomde> you should be able to move them to within the allowed board area, even if they were first placed outside when you first generated the layout from schematic
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[15:06] <jededu> Its not a serious design im just playing with eagle :) http://www.primarypi.co.uk/images/eagle.png
[15:07] <Upu> that GPS needs some work :)
[15:07] <jededu> I know lo first time ive ever used it :)
[15:07] <eroomde> and you literally can't move those two passives?
[15:08] <jededu> no ive tried everything closed , reopened etc
[15:08] <Upu> thats unusual its normally large parts like the NTX2
[15:08] <eroomde> i've not seen that table thing before
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[15:08] <Upu> mail me the Eagle files
[15:09] <Upu> I'll see if I can move them on the board
[15:09] <Upu> and save and send back
[15:10] <jededu> ok what address
[15:11] <Upu> PM'd
[15:23] <jededu> Done
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[15:27] <Upu> got it 2 mins
[15:29] <Upu> fixed
[15:29] <Upu> sent it back
[15:29] <Upu> it wouldn't move for me so I turned all the layers on then it mvoed
[15:29] <Upu> moved
[15:32] <jededu> Ok thanks I dont know how i managed to turn the layers off nice programme thoiugh
[15:33] <Upu> press CTRL +A
[15:34] <Upu> turns them all back on
[15:34] <eroomde> heh oh yes, you appear to not have an origins on that screencap
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[15:56] <LeoBodnar> you have tOrigins layer disabled
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[15:56] <LeoBodnar> it is the cross in the middle of the part that you grab on
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[15:59] <eroomde> laggy connection for you today LeoBodnar
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[15:59] <LeoBodnar> lights peed is slow today
[16:00] <LeoBodnar> i can see blue glow everywhere
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[16:23] <aadamson> My science experiements. :)
[16:23] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/radio.png
[16:23] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/Power.png
[16:23] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/Solar.png
[16:24] <aadamson> stm32l1 with si4463 and the TI PLL-1 connected to it. DAC and PWM brought out to the flight controller
[16:24] <aadamson> n/p fets on the adc/sens for both lipo and batt so I can turn on and off the ability to sens, etc
[16:25] <aadamson> temp via the L1 (it's built in)
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[16:25] <aadamson> i2c to the pll controller
[16:25] <craag> nice render
[16:25] <craag> what software did you use for that?
[16:25] <aadamson> usb power on the power board for debugging, 10 pin jtag on the back, and diode or'd so nothing should bother nothing.
[16:26] <aadamson> I also added the tvs diode on the solar controller just in case I didn't have a battery connected
[16:26] <aadamson> that wall all done in diptrace
[16:26] <aadamson> I've been trying to get off eagle as it's just too limited
[16:26] <aadamson> for some of the other things that I do
[16:26] <craag> ah cheers, I'll have to check that out
[16:27] <aadamson> I used all the pins except for a spare serial port on the L1 :)... oh, and I added the FET to turn on and off the power to the GPS as you all suggested :)
[16:27] <aadamson> I also did a TPS61200 power board that I'll probably build as well
[16:27] <craag> Yeah looks comprehensive
[16:28] <aadamson> oh, and I keep forgetting... MOUNTING holes at the top :)
[16:28] <aadamson> The PLL-1 is going to be interesting :)
[16:28] <craag> mounting holes? pah, just tape it to the balloon ;)
[16:28] <aadamson> oh, and I forgot, the usb is bought out completely so I can run a VCP connection and configure the board via a CLI over the VCP
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[16:29] <aadamson> (seeing as I already have all that code :) )
[16:29] <aadamson> if it works, I also redid the LPF on the Si, to one that *should* cover both 2mtr and 70mhz
[16:29] <craag> I see the stm, si4xxx, the other chip is the PLL?
[16:29] <craag> Cool
[16:29] <craag> I assume you mean 70cm
[16:30] <aadamson> yes on both :)
[16:30] <LeoBodnar> why did you use CDCE913?
[16:30] <aadamson> http://www.ti.com/product/cdcel913-q1
[16:30] <aadamson> yep
[16:31] <aadamson> just for kicks and giggle, trying to find a vcxo for 1.8v with enable was becoming harder so I just bit the bullet
[16:31] <LeoBodnar> it's not exactly beautifully clean as PLLs go
[16:31] <aadamson> http://www.ti.com/product/cdcel913
[16:31] <aadamson> didn't need the automotive one :)
[16:31] <aadamson> Yeah I know, I just wanted to try it and I can always move to a vcxo without enable it wanted
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[16:32] <LeoBodnar> and with multiplication phase noise increases as 20 log n
[16:33] <aadamson> The other thing that I wanted to play with was the DAC, so I bought out a solder pad so that I could selected between DSS generated audio or DAC generated
[16:33] <LeoBodnar> but it looks like a nice fooling around platform
[16:34] <aadamson> DDS my keyboard (and fingers arent working today)
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[16:36] <aadamson> only problem with the L1, it will run at 1.8, but no usb there, needs 2.0v to have usb (which is only a deveolopment thing). will run down to 1.65v, but at much reduced speeds.. and while it's a 256k part, its only a 32mhz part
[16:37] <aadamson> but it should idle along quite nicely at uA's
[16:37] <aadamson> and I have full control of the peripherals and what it on and off
[16:40] <aadamson> That board isn't as small as the ones you all are doing, it's .9" wide by 3.5" tall
[16:40] <aadamson> I didn't want to try to squeeze things in a 0.1 design and I'm not that good in diptrace yet :)
[16:41] <LeoBodnar> Strap sized D cell to it :D
[16:41] <aadamson> hehe
[16:41] <eroomde> i wish energizer did lithium ultimates in C and D
[16:41] <LeoBodnar> yeah indeed
[16:41] <LeoBodnar> too dangerous
[16:41] <eroomde> i suspect a D would contain enough lithium to be classified as a munition
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[16:42] <aadamson> for this version I also stayed with the qfp parts and I needed some vias under the processor (blind vias - oh joy) and I couldn't do that with the qfn part
[16:42] <LeoBodnar> is it 4 layer?
[16:43] <aadamson> well, I could, but they wouldn't work very well... no, just 2 sided
[16:43] <aadamson> blind in the sense of being hidden by the processor, not in a layer :)
[16:43] <LeoBodnar> ah
[16:43] <eroomde> i was gonna say
[16:44] <LeoBodnar> you can with QFN
[16:44] <LeoBodnar> just ignore the paddle
[16:45] <LeoBodnar> and tent the vias
[16:45] <aadamson> yep I know, but I didn't want to stretch my abilities just yet :)... I've only recently picked up diptrace
[16:45] <aadamson> all vias will be tented anyway
[16:45] <aadamson> probably too many leds, but on a dev board, you can't have enough :)
[16:47] <aadamson> Anyway, wife want to go out, but later I'll give links to the schematics/board layout it's mostly reference stuff with a few tweaks, but would be curious of comments
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[16:50] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
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[17:03] <craag> cm13g09: afternoon
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[17:55] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[18:14] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
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[18:26] <aadamson> Ok, schematics and diptrace and pdf for all here - https://github.com/akadamson/STM32L1-FC
[18:26] <aadamson> https://github.com/akadamson/Single-Cell-Boost
[18:26] <aadamson> https://github.com/akadamson/Solar-Lipo-USB
[18:29] <aadamson> schematics as diptrace that should be :)
[18:30] <aadamson> Now I need to spend some time and get gerb output where it needs to be
[18:30] <aadamson> any comments appreciated, as referenced, most everything is based upon reference design information even down to the inductors recommended :) I did publish all the various voltage changes if wanted on the buck and boost controllers
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[19:01] <jole> hello, could i get some advice on radio waves travelling through metal? checking online it seems people either say no nothing goes through because it is metal, and others say well not everything is blocked. This depends on the frequency, metal thickness and distance i assume, but could i theoretically calculate if anything goes through using these parameters?? i.e. any tool??
[19:02] <eroomde> in theory, nothing will go through
[19:02] <eroomde> if your emitting thing is completely contained by an unbroken conductive surface
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[19:03] <mfa298> if it's solid metal it should block almost all rf
[19:03] <eroomde> where 'unbroken' is relative to the frequency
[19:03] <eroomde> so for example, chicken-wire will look like solid metal low wavelengths much larger than the holes
[19:03] <eroomde> but it will not be solid to frequnecies with wavelengths of a few cm and less
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[19:04] <eroomde> however you're usually either designing a faraday cage or you're designing an antenna
[19:04] <eroomde> there's not really much in the way of middle-ground for which you can find designing references
[19:04] <eroomde> why do you ask?
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[19:06] <LeoBodnar> "metal" by definition does not pass RF
[19:07] <jole> i was looking at the possiblity of sending data out of a metal enclosed box, to be placed in a remote field
[19:07] <LeoBodnar> completely enclosed with no openings?
[19:07] <eroomde> you could do that if you were willing to put an external antenna on, but if it's enclosed it's basically not going to happen
[19:07] <eroomde> you might get a tiny bit out at close ranges
[19:08] <jole> there is a fan with stainless steel shafts
[19:08] <jole> close range i.e. less than 1 metre
[19:08] <mfa298> if you can have the antenna outside of the box, depending on frquency and size of box, the box could make a very nice groundplan
[19:08] <LeoBodnar> microwave duct would work
[19:08] <eroomde> yeah
[19:08] <LeoBodnar> or optical
[19:08] <eroomde> jole: close is completely a function of the link buget
[19:08] <jole> maybe 10/20cm, thinking of a 2.4ghz rf transmitter
[19:09] <eroomde> which depends on how much power is being emitted, how sensitive is the receiver, what is the gain of the receiver antenna, and distance between
[19:10] <eroomde> what do you want to transmit?
[19:10] <mfa298> at 2.4GHz an external antenna doesn't need to be that big - about 3cm of wire sticking out the top of the box (not connected to the box)
[19:10] <eroomde> also it's worth stressing that all of this is madness compared to just putting a little 2.4ghz whip antenna on the box - would that not be possible?
[19:11] <jole> concentration of oxygen and carbon dioxide
[19:11] <mfa298> and if the box > 6x6cm then that's a good groundplane
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[19:13] <LeoBodnar> is it for the Earth?
[19:14] <jole> the box is stainless steel, completely enclosed with a fan opening but i was thinking, could i get any signal from the inside to the outside.
[19:14] <eroomde> sure we understand
[19:14] <eroomde> and we keep suggesting an external antenna
[19:14] <eroomde> and you keep not answering
[19:15] <mfa298> you may get a bit from inside to outside but it's not something I'd want to rely on.
[19:16] <jole> understood
[19:17] <LeoBodnar> is there an animal inside?
[19:17] <eroomde> yeah the fan hole might let a bit out if you're close by, and the protocol used doesn't mind the fan noise / fading
[19:18] <Reb-SM3ULC> jole: floater or up/down?
[19:18] <mfa298> any external antenna is going to be much better than relying on some rf getting out of the box.
[19:18] <LeoBodnar> there hermetically sealed RF connectors. For a poor man's choice use feed-through capacitor
[19:18] <eroomde> Reb-SM3ULC: i don't think this has anything to do with hab
[19:20] <mfa298> if it's a low power transmitter the other option that might work would be to connect the TX on the radio to the case, although you would then need to think about what impact that might have on the other internal electronics.
[19:21] <mfa298> as ideas go it's not much better than putting the antenna inside a faraday cage (metal box)
[19:21] <eroomde> no
[19:22] <eroomde> if you can cut a slot in the case, that would work too
[19:22] <eroomde> and just do a slot antenna
[19:22] <eroomde> although stainless is not the best
[19:23] <jole> noted
[19:23] <mfa298> other question would be: does the whole case need to be metal. If you could use something else even for a single side that would help.
[19:23] <eroomde> you'll have to obviously look up what a slot antenna is and how to do one
[19:23] <eroomde> it's not just 'a slot'
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[19:38] <mikestir>
[19:39] <fsphil> sssh
[19:40] <mikestir> lol. wrong window. just as well I was only pressing enter
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[21:07] <Laurenceb_> http://www.rebelrocketry.com/shop/product_info.php?info=p3403_CO2-Deployment-Recovery-Bundle---15lbs--6-8Kg----15fps.html
[21:07] <SIbot> In real units: 15 lbs = 6.8 kg
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[21:21] <Laurenceb_> 1 lbs
[21:21] <SIbot> In real units: 1 lbs = 454 g
[21:21] <Laurenceb_> rofl
[21:22] <ibanezmatt13> 1 furlong
[21:22] <ibanezmatt13> :P
[21:22] <craag> It only does lbs and ft currently
[21:22] <ibanezmatt13> ah :)
[21:23] <craag> But those are the 2 most often (mis)used here
[21:23] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, who uses furlongs anyway now
[21:23] <ibanezmatt13> here's where I'm at craag http://pbrd.co/1eRHhuu
[21:24] <craag> awesome
[21:24] <craag> I should get into doing stencils..
[21:25] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah, I have -273.5 degrees C experience with stencils
[21:25] <craag> I think it's very cool to have the programming headers on a snap-off too like anthony does
[21:26] <craag> Stops feature creep dead :)
[21:26] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah, definitely. :)
[21:26] <eroomde> you can shorted 'one laurenceb' to '1 lbs'
[21:26] <SIbot> In real units: 1 lbs = 454 g
[21:26] <mfa298> ibanezmatt13: one of the local pub quiz masters likes asking for the speed of light in furlongs per fortnight so it's always useful to know random forms of measurement
[21:27] <LazyLeopard> Once saw an argument for the usefulness of "furlongs per fortnight", but can't remember now what the context was...
[21:27] <ibanezmatt13> haha, awesome mfa298
[21:28] <craag> That must be fun with no phone. "Did anyone happen to bring a calculator to the pub?"
[21:28] <mfa298> we did manage to work it out once, I think going from m/s through km and miles.
[21:30] <ibanezmatt13> craag: I don't like the look of that: http://gerblook.org/pcb/QRo6DYvyJ3de8LeHwXcVTJ#front
[21:30] <ibanezmatt13> :/
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[21:32] <ibanezmatt13> I'll work on it tomorrow, top gear time now
[21:32] <ibanezmatt13> gn
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[21:38] <mfa298> time must run slower up norf, I thought topgear time was 90 minutes ago!
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[21:40] <craag> mfa298: Takes a while for the RF to get all the way up there
[21:41] <fsphil> only just finished it myself
[21:42] <fsphil> light travels slower at night
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[23:06] <DL7AD> fsphil: ping
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[00:00] --- Mon Mar 3 2014