highaltitude.log.20140228

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[07:35] <number10> got email by way of arhab.org about Academic High Altitude Conference http://www.stratoballooning.org/conference
[07:36] <number10> for anyone in the USA this June
[07:43] <fsphil> for people complaining about london being ackward, checkout whre that is :)
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[07:57] <ibanezmatt13> According to the predictor, there's a 32nd of February and a prediction for it...
[07:58] <mfa298> I would imagine it's the same prediction as the 4th March
[08:00] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah I think it is, just confused me a little :P
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[08:04] <fsphil> that's some leap year
[08:05] <ibanezmatt13> tis. Off to college, bye :)
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[08:51] <Hade> I'm guessing BALLOONOLO-2 is being tested prior to launch on March 1st?
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[08:58] <Upu> most likely Hade
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[08:58] <Upu> people do run tests to see how long the batteries last etc
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[09:12] <LeoBodnar> morning *
[09:12] <fsphil> g'morn
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[09:23] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[09:23] <fsphil> yo
[09:23] <Lunar_LanderU> exam passed :)
[09:29] <mfa298> Hade: if you join the mailing list most launches are announced on there which can help work out if things are more likely to be a test or not
[09:41] <craag> well done Lunar_LanderU !
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[09:59] <Lunar_LanderU> thanks craag :)
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[10:12] <Hade> Thank you mfa298!
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[11:13] <jededu> ping upu
[11:15] <Upu> hi jededu
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[11:17] <jededu> Hi I am trying to find a suitable voltage regulator fot the Pi Board 3.3 & 5v what works I have looked at so many
[11:18] <jededu> What about these have you ever come across them http://uk.farnell.com/tracopower/tsr-1-2433/converter-dc-to-dc-3-3v-1a-sip/dp/1696319?ref=lookahead
[11:22] <eroomde> in limiting your question to upu, i presume you don't want me to answer it
[11:22] <mfa298> jededu: you may not need 5V for the pi (depending on what you're plugging into it)
[11:24] <Upu> haha
[11:24] <Mack> Hello
[11:24] <Upu> jsut ask on this channel there are more experience people than I on here who are likely to give you much better advice
[11:25] <eroomde> jededu: for what they are, those traco units are good
[11:26] <eroomde> they're really just drop-in smps replacements for venerable things like 78033s in a to-220 case
[11:26] <Upu> never seen those
[11:26] <jededu> lol no I was discussing the project with him yesterday thats all sorry all suggestions wellcome
[11:26] <Upu> but they look ott
[11:26] <eroomde> which top do you have in mind?
[11:26] <eroomde> they're just a potted smps
[11:27] <Upu> ott as in overly large and expensive
[11:28] <jededu> They have some degree of protection built in by the looks of it im using 5x AA
[11:28] <eroomde> £4.80 is not that expensive
[11:29] <mfa298> min input voltage of 4.75 seems fairly high for something going down to 3v3. you could probably find something with a lower min voltage
[11:29] <eroomde> given they're well designs smps units with quite good emi and stability
[11:29] <eroomde> mfa298: he's using 5xAA
[11:30] <eroomde> so that is good down to almost 0.9V per cell
[11:30] <eroomde> which is beyond where the lithiums will have kicked the bucket
[11:31] <mfa298> thats true - although would mean he could potentially manage fewer AAs for the flight, (unless all that capacity is needed for a long flight)
[11:31] <eroomde> it's a pi remember
[11:31] <eroomde> 20 joules per telemetry string
[11:31] <jededu> Pi rev 2 even
[11:32] <mfa298> wasn't Dave's floater something like 6 AAs which did most of the night as well as well.
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[11:33] <eroomde> don't know. but the point is, lithium cells die at sort of 1.25-1.3V
[11:34] <eroomde> so even with 4 of them, they're still the limiting factor over the traco smps
[11:35] <eroomde> i.e. it simply doesn't matter what the min input voltage is for that thing so long as it's less than the battery pack death voltage
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[11:39] <gonzo___> slightly OT, but for those who have talked about optical comms to HABs:
[11:39] <gonzo___> https://directory.eoportal.org/web/eoportal/satellite-missions/s/shindaisat
[11:39] <gonzo___> was launched last night
[11:40] <fsphil> briefly heard about that
[11:41] <gonzo___> not sure what the chance of seeing it with a domestoc scope would be. Would be interesting to look for it
[11:42] <fsphil> the last one with the green LED was visible unaided
[11:42] <x-f> that was FITsat
[11:43] <fsphil> that's the one
[11:43] <x-f> i briefly heard ShindaiSat last night
[11:43] <x-f> fsphil, did you see the aurora?
[11:43] <fsphil> I did see a satellite that appeared to be blinking, I though it was fitsat but turned out it was over australia at the time
[11:43] <fsphil> x-f: no :(
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[11:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> I should imagine that without any seperate attitude control other than the whole satellite alingment will be fun!
[11:44] <x-f> :(
[11:44] <fsphil> apparantly a very good show
[11:44] <fsphil> lots of greens and reds
[11:44] <jededu> eroomde If i use one f the traco units to get to 5v what would you advise for the 3.3v I was thinking one of these http://cds.linear.com/docs/en/datasheet/1117fd.pdf
[11:44] <x-f> i just saw the pics from the UK this morning, we were under the clouds
[11:44] <fsphil> anytime I looked I didn't see anything. someone about 4 miles from me got some great pictures
[11:45] <jededu> I know its linear
[11:45] <eroomde> jededu: i'd be consistent and use the traco bricks for both
[11:45] <eroomde> you linked me a 3.3V one
[11:45] <eroomde> i assumed that was therefore for powering the 3.3V stuff
[11:45] <mfa298> jededu: do you *need* 5V for the pi
[11:46] <mfa298> most pi flights are 3v3 only.
[11:46] <Upu> As long as you're not using anything USB you can just tied 5V to 3.3V
[11:46] <jededu> http://www.tracopower.com/fileadmin/medien/dokumente/pdf/datasheets/tsr1.pdf
[11:47] <jededu> So the Pi will run on 3.3v to the 5V rail
[11:48] <Upu> yes on with the caveat you aren't running any 5V USB devices (picam = 3.3v)
[11:48] <daveake> That said I have some USB WiFi dongles that are happy on 3.3V
[11:49] <jededu> This changes things I dont need 5v for anything Im not using USB
[11:49] <gonzo___> this sat mentions 1mtr mirror for getting data. But the eye may be better for just detecting the lighty.
[11:50] <gonzo___> they say FSK, but i assume that is actually AFSK on light (an AM carrier?)
[11:51] <fsphil> yes that's likely
[11:51] <fsphil> unless it switches between two colours
[11:52] <Lunar_LanderU> hi anthony
[11:52] <Lunar_LanderU> did you get my PM earlier?
[11:52] <fsphil> 1.2 kbit/s or 9.6 kbit/s
[11:52] <fsphil> not bad
[11:52] <fsphil> 32 LEDs
[11:54] <mfa298> jededu: http://www.daveakerman.com/?page_id=1294
[11:54] <Upu> Lunar ? [20:59] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[11:54] <mfa298> it's almost like someones run a pi off batteries before for a flight
[11:54] <Upu> or you mean at work ?
[11:54] <Upu> I'm on holiday today
[11:57] <Lunar_LanderU> yea work
[11:57] <Lunar_LanderU> ah ok
[11:57] <gonzo___> I did think about the colour switch phiol, but demod would be difficult
[11:58] <gonzo___> without clever optics. but still recon (A)AFSK would be more efficient
[11:59] <gonzo___> they would have to be running high bauds to get any data through the brief flash of lights that will happen
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[12:00] <cm13g09> mfa298: Are you still floating in a sea of Pis?
[12:01] <mfa298> cm13g09: I am
[12:02] <fsphil> gonzo___: yea. It's really simple to PWM the LEDs to do rtty or other modes
[12:02] <fsphil> I've done it with some lower power ones, fldigi quite happy to decode it
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[12:03] <gonzo___> I have a 3W luxeon TX that takes Af inputs, not PWM though. And an RX made from a 4inch desk magnifier lens in some waste pipe
[12:04] <fsphil> nice
[12:04] <fsphil> my RX is just a little micro pv cell
[12:04] <gonzo___> only ever used it to light a spot on a wall and rx it. playing a CD
[12:05] <mfa298> is this a new form of disco you're creating ?
[12:05] <gonzo___> I have a burr-brown optical detector, which is a tine pv with an opamp, in an 8pin dill clear package
[12:05] <gonzo___> quite cute really
[12:05] <fsphil> data disco
[12:06] <gonzo___> unfortunatly the light hardly cahnges averagy intensity, so no disco
[12:06] <Lunar_LanderU> dang
[12:06] <fsphil> it flickers a bit
[12:06] <Lunar_LanderU> I was wondering why the resistor was bigger than the pad
[12:06] <Lunar_LanderU> turns out I ordered a 1206 resistor for a 0805 pad
[12:06] <gonzo___> I have a 20W led cluster that was for a light beacon. Just key it with modulated cw
[12:07] <fsphil> people have managed video over LEDs
[12:07] <fsphil> I'm not sure how they manage to get the bandwidth from it
[12:07] <gonzo___> Used with a wide spread, it's something a remote rx could zero onto
[12:07] <gonzo___> tx bandwidth should be easy. It's the bw of the rx that is the prob
[12:08] <gonzo___> though one of the locals here has looked at it and recons simple pv with the right amp should be good to 100s of khz
[12:09] <gonzo___> could get apollo type nbtv ovber that
[12:09] <fsphil> or better
[12:09] <fsphil> the one I'm doing is about 18khz
[12:09] <fsphil> mmm
[12:10] <eroomde> the nbtv is 18kHz?
[12:11] <fsphil> it should be about 12khz, but it seems to come out a bit higher
[12:12] <fsphil> the pixel rate is 24khz
[12:12] <eroomde> what's the modulation?
[12:12] <fsphil> gqrx's fm demodulator
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[12:13] <eroomde> sounds ammenable to QAM
[12:13] <eroomde> to get the bw down
[12:13] <fsphil> yea I've been wondering how to fit it in
[12:13] <eroomde> up the constallation
[12:13] <eroomde> constallation
[12:13] <eroomde> jesus
[12:13] <eroomde> i forget how to words
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[12:18] <fsphil> the colour signal in PAL is a qam signal iirc
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[12:27] <gonzo___> yep, think it is, at 4.4336187922 whz (from mem)
[12:29] <fsphil> hah
[12:30] <fsphil> doing a digital nbtv should certainly be possible
[12:30] <fsphil> as long as it's designed to be tolerant of some errors
[12:30] <fsphil> it doesn't have to display perfect
[12:30] <Lunar_LanderU> sad news
[12:31] <Lunar_LanderU> screw terminals are bigger than the allocated footprint
[12:31] <fsphil> d'oh
[12:31] <Lunar_LanderU> microSD slot doesn't fit
[12:31] <Lunar_LanderU> and we can't order from Upu
[12:31] <Lunar_LanderU> :(
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[12:31] <fsphil> drill the holdes a bit bigger?
[12:32] <fsphil> holes*
[12:32] <Lunar_LanderU> ah that is not the problem, the terminals will be very close to each other
[12:32] <Lunar_LanderU> and they will obscure the labelling
[12:32] <Lunar_LanderU> so I have to arrange that a bit better
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[12:42] Nick change: dalamar -> Guest81947
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[13:12] <Lunar_LanderUOff> hello
[13:12] <Lunar_LanderUOff> my neww office is niice :9
[13:12] <Lunar_LanderUOff> -i
[13:13] <Lunar_LanderUOff> and :)
[13:13] <Lunar_LanderUOff> and -w
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[13:14] Nick change: Lunar_LanderUOff -> Lunar_LanderU
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[13:16] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:16] <Lunar_LanderU> hm
[13:16] <Lunar_LanderU> ho can I discern Laboratory and office without a too long nick
[13:16] <Lunar_LanderU> +w
[13:17] <Lunar_LanderU> OK, L for Lab, U for uni in general
[13:18] <fsphil> Lunar_Lab
[13:20] <Lunar_LanderU> good idea
[13:20] <Lunar_LanderU> thanks
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[13:30] <Laurenceb> http://habrahabr.ru/post/213749/
[13:38] <eroomde> ettus n210 or bladerf?
[13:38] <eroomde> decision time
[13:38] <eroomde> adamgreig: input appreciated
[13:38] <adamgreig> hmm
[13:38] <adamgreig> the n210 is lovely
[13:38] <adamgreig> and ettus is cool
[13:38] <adamgreig> I have really enjoyed the bladeRF though
[13:38] <adamgreig> what's the price difference?
[13:38] <eroomde> like x2
[13:38] <adamgreig> the bladeRF's C API was really happy
[13:38] <eroomde> but equally doesn't matter as it's not my money
[13:39] <eroomde> i *suspect* i'd mostly be doing stuff within the gnuradio companion ecosystem
[13:39] <adamgreig> http://www.taylorkillian.com/2013/08/sdr-showdown-hackrf-vs-bladerf-vs-usrp.html has a good table
[13:39] <adamgreig> the 210 has the whole mimo thing
[13:40] <adamgreig> bladerf is more open source
[13:40] <adamgreig> same FPGA
[13:40] <adamgreig> higher sampler rate on the 210
[13:40] <adamgreig> basically you get what you pay for and the 210 has more antenna bits and faster radio bits
[13:40] <adamgreig> if money was no object I'm not sure why you wouldn't get the 210
[13:40] <eroomde> suspect i'll get the 210
[13:40] <eroomde> it comes in a box
[13:40] <adamgreig> for the bladerf is probably a lot better value for money
[13:41] <adamgreig> but*
[13:41] <adamgreig> well not even 'probably'
[13:41] <adamgreig> just pretty sure it's much better value for money
[13:41] <adamgreig> I'm still eagerly awaiting my hackRF so I can use it in a more disposable application
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[13:42] <mattbrejza> the extra £600 is for the 'A NI company' sticker
[13:42] <eroomde> it cost that much before they got bought by NI
[13:42] <mattbrejza> i thought they bumped up the price a bit though
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[13:53] <Lunar_Lab> good, works
[13:53] <Lunar_Lab> :)
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[13:54] <aadamson> it's coming together... decided the power board needed a break out so that I could test/verify a few things and yes, thats USB on there so I can run it through the buck convertor while development occurs, plus if this works out the main board will be configurable through a CLI over a usb vcp (seeing as I have that code already) :) - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/Solar-Lipo.png
[13:57] <eroomde> adamgreig: think i'll get the n200
[13:57] <eroomde> the only difference in the n210 is that the fpga is bigger, but it's not supported by the free xilinx tools, which sucks enormously
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[14:31] <adamgreig> eroomde: nice. let me know how it goes
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[15:22] <Lunar_LanderU> good
[15:22] <Lunar_LanderU> everything besides the microSD fits now
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[15:41] <Babs_____> Afternoon all - which is more efficient - software serial to provide easy debugging and then switch to hardware serial when everything is done and coded and tested and working, or hardware serial and just debug through a um232 from the outset?
[15:42] <eroomde> hardware serial
[15:42] <eroomde> always
[15:42] <eroomde> there is no circumstance under which software serial is ever a good idea
[15:43] <eroomde> it's strictly shitter
[15:43] <Laurenceb> what eroomde said
[15:43] <eroomde> and you only use it when you have no choice
[15:43] <eroomde> software serial does not provide easy debugging
[15:43] <eroomde> punch whoever told you that
[15:43] <eroomde> they're confused
[15:43] <Babs_____> "Eroomde - he never liked libraries" will be your epitaph
[15:43] <eroomde> it's not a question of libraries
[15:43] <fsphil> not a library thing
[15:44] <eroomde> i have no problem writing my own software serial library, and it'd still be shit compared to using a hardware peripheral
[15:44] <Babs_____> Can i view the outout to um232 through the arduino ide just by selecting a different port?
[15:44] <eroomde> i have no idea what a um232 is
[15:44] <Babs_____> Off the wiki
[15:45] <eroomde> link
[15:45] <Babs_____> Or the habsupplies wiki at least
[15:45] <eroomde> link
[15:45] <Babs_____> Two secs
[15:45] <mattbrejza> a tx only software serial is much less bad though
[15:45] <mattbrejza> (depending on who wrote it)
[15:46] <Babs_____> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/wiki/doku.php?id=frontpage:levelconvertor
[15:46] <Laurenceb> http://pic.epicfail.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/attention-fail-no-power-over-these-gamers.jpg
[15:46] <Upu> its a FT232 dev board
[15:46] <Upu> http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_UM232R.pdf
[15:47] <fsphil> could use a partial software serial solution. a pin that interrupts on a rising or falling edge, and a hardware timer to calculate number of bits
[15:47] <Upu> I'm going to take that software serial example off there
[15:47] <Upu> btw the UM232R is only used when using hardware serial with the GPS and outputing debug via software serial
[15:47] <Babs_____> Hey upu - so I established that for some reason the hex codes In ucenter are different from the hex codes in the wiki, but still work
[15:47] <Upu> that is an acceptable use of sofware serial
[15:48] <eroomde> arduinos are so shit
[15:48] <eroomde> why don't they just die
[15:48] <Babs_____> But I can still view through the arduino ide right?
[15:48] <Upu> lol
[15:48] <Upu> Atmega328p only has one serial port
[15:48] <mattbrejza> oh i thought you wanted to debug through software serial
[15:48] <Upu> yes or putty
[15:48] <Babs_____> Ok cool
[15:48] <mattbrejza> use a micro that has better debugging :P
[15:48] <eroomde> yes but i'd use it for the gps
[15:48] <Babs_____> That's all for now
[15:48] <eroomde> and not tie it up talking to the pc
[15:48] <Babs_____> Thanks
[15:48] <Upu> GPS on hardware serial all the time
[15:48] <Upu> debug all you want to SS
[15:50] <Upu> although he hides it well Ed doesn't rate Arduinos too highly
[15:50] <eroomde> yes, that's ok-er
[15:50] <eroomde> if it's just tx to a pc
[15:50] <eroomde> although people will use it and still not know what timers and itnerrupts are
[15:50] <eroomde> but still claim they know something about microcontrollers
[15:50] <eroomde> uit just breeds confusion
[15:50] <mattbrejza> cant you connect the gps to the hardware serial and still send data back to the pc thorugh the onboard ftdi? the gps will ignore all your debug stuff
[15:51] <mattbrejza> it just means you have to remove the gps for programming
[15:51] <Babs_____> Eroomde sits on the fence too much in terms of opinion for my liking
[15:51] <Babs_____> ;-)
[15:51] <Upu> nah I put a level convertor on mattbrejza with an enable pin so you can leave it connected and program the arduino
[15:51] <mattbrejza> oh right, nice arduino work around :P
[15:52] <Upu> yup
[15:52] <Upu> and I'm going to redo the example code
[15:52] <mattbrejza> assuming oc youre using the level converter one rather than a normal breakout and some resistors
[15:53] <eroomde> it's not really opinion
[15:53] <eroomde> in the same way that when you got your maths homework back at primary school and your teacher had written corrections all over it in red, that wasn't really just their opinion
[15:53] <Babs_____> Arf
[15:53] <eroomde> you were just wrong
[15:53] <eroomde> and they had corrected it
[15:54] <Babs_____> I never got any red pen on my maths homework
[15:54] <eroomde> bad example
[15:54] <eroomde> all i could think of vs, say, english
[15:54] <eroomde> where it is just opinion
[15:54] <eroomde> i'll remove tongue from cheek now
[15:54] <nats`> arduino is the cool road to hell
[15:55] <nats`> let's do C++ on 8bit uC
[15:55] <nats`> \o/
[15:55] <eroomde> i'm not mega averse to that idea actually
[15:55] <nats`> I'm totally + they mix interrupt and polling in different library
[15:55] <mattbrejza> has anyone implemented python for arduino yet?
[15:55] <eroomde> in as much as the concept of encapsulation can map nicely to things you want to do in embedded
[15:55] <nats`> which is a total mess when you try to assemble them
[15:56] <eroomde> but the other 90% of c++ is probably dangerous
[15:56] <eroomde> yeah the arduino libraries are pretty horrible
[15:56] <eroomde> they just hide stuff that you actually need to know about to do anything non-trivial
[15:57] <eroomde> and bitmasks and registers are not that hard, and once you understand them there is nothing hiding anything from you
[15:57] <eroomde> your mental model is correct
[15:57] <eroomde> therefore you can write code that does what it should
[15:57] <eroomde> no surprises from black-boxes
[15:58] <nats`> anyway last time I used CMSIS and HAL in C from energy micro for Cortex-M4 I got a heart attack
[15:58] <nats`> all those stuff are awfull they did the same error with cortex C code
[15:59] <nats`> their function to address gpio etc are really totally non sense
[15:59] <eroomde> yes i agree
[15:59] <eroomde> i just want the datasheet and a .h file with register mappings
[16:00] <nats`> same but hey you know what
[16:00] <nats`> no clean .h
[16:00] <nats`> only tons of .h redefining previous #define in other .h
[16:00] <fsphil> some helper functions for the ARM processors can be handy
[16:00] <nats`> -_-
[16:00] <eroomde> i found a .h for the cortex
[16:01] <nats`> fsphil I agree but the mini mum is to give a .h with only register mapping and constant usefull
[16:01] <eroomde> it was basically what i wanted
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[16:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi
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[16:26] <Laurenceb> rofl
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[16:26] <Laurenceb> vnc can ascii art video over ssh
[16:27] <Laurenceb> this is hilarious
[16:29] <mattbrejza> vnc or vlc?
[16:29] <Laurenceb> erm vlc
[16:29] <mattbrejza> i knew it had an ascii art mode, but not the ssh bit
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[16:34] <Lunar_LanderU> see you all later!
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[16:46] <Laurenceb> anyone here used webcams on linux?
[16:47] <Laurenceb> im struggling to fix the exposure
[16:47] <Laurenceb> i want it constant
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[16:50] <fsphil> there's a slim chance of a v4l2 control to set a fixed exposure
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[16:50] <fsphil> I think I've seen it once
[16:51] <fsphil> depends on the hardware and driver
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[16:51] <Laurenceb> v4lctl shows a few settings
[16:52] <g0pai_ian> FFMPEG ?
[16:57] <fsphil> sometimes just setting a value to exposure or brightness can do it
[16:57] <g0pai_ian> What do you use to program the Arduino pro mini? The mini pro board appears to have six pins
[16:58] <Laurenceb> hmm it seems White Balance Temperature, Auto: off didnt do it
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[16:59] <mattbrejza> g0pai_ian: any old usb->serial converter, alothugh that layout is the sparkfun one
[17:00] <g0pai_ian> Thanks Phil.
[17:00] <mattbrejza> or a regular avr isp programmer
[17:01] <Laurenceb> fsphil: what sort of values?
[17:01] <g0pai_ian> That's the one I was looking for Matt, Pinout it ten pins, so need to convert to six?
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[17:03] <alxwntr> Hello
[17:04] <alxwntr> was wanting to place an order with HAB Supplies
[17:04] <Upu> hi alxwntr
[17:04] <alxwntr> but it said to come here first
[17:04] <alxwntr> hiya
[17:04] <Upu> yup
[17:04] <mattbrejza> g0pai_ian: what has 10 pins?
[17:04] <Upu> private message
[17:04] <g0pai_ian> Some of the ISP programmers matt
[17:04] <alxwntr> hang on - you'll have to tell me how to private message people
[17:04] <alxwntr> sorry
[17:05] <Upu> are you in the web client ?
[17:05] <mattbrejza> oh right, there is a 10 and 6 pin version of the avr isp, but the xtra pins are just gnd
[17:05] <alxwntr> yup
[17:05] <Upu> should be at the top as a new tab thing
[17:06] <mattbrejza> also when using the avr isp with the pro mini, you dont connect to that end header, you need to look up which of the pro mini pins are connected to the isp of the avr
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[17:07] <g0pai_ian> Thanks Matt I think that's me good to go. I will tread cautiously and think I should be able to work it out OK. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Arduino-PRO-MINI-ATMEGA328-5V-16M-MWC-avr328P-Development-Board-/321202026293?ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:GB:3160
[17:07] <mattbrejza> i would consider a 3.3V one
[17:08] <g0pai_ian> Good flight weight - monitoring here is a wealth of ideas. Bang goes the pocket money!
[17:08] <mattbrejza> if you were going to use avrisp, why not just get a DIP atmega328?
[17:09] <g0pai_ian> Do the atmega328 need an external xtal. I'm from Picaxe school . . .
[17:09] <mattbrejza> nope
[17:09] <mattbrejza> although its a good idea to fit one by the time youre ready to fly
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[17:10] <mattbrejza> the clock slows with lower temperatures, and potentially you can get a gps-avr clock mismatch
[17:10] <mattbrejza> fine if youre brave and use i2c
[17:10] <g0pai_ian> Back on familiar turf, always stick the chip in the bread board. . . With 328 are you saying xtal is an option. Only used i2c a little.
[17:11] <mattbrejza> (i tested how much of a mismatch the gps can handle, and its actually fine as the avr's clock decreases by quite a bit, but not as it increases)
[17:11] <mattbrejza> the avr has 'fuses' which set the clock source
[17:11] <mattbrejza> its just something that is set by the programmer
[17:12] <mattbrejza> the avr has an internal 8MHz osc, so you can develop for a 8MHz internal clock, then add a crystal on when you feel like it and just change the fuse, and itll just work as before
[17:12] <g0pai_ian> Right, that sounds like something that I'm vaguely familiar with, but never actually used an external xtal with a Picaxe, but never had one near -38 either.
[17:13] <mattbrejza> theres not much to a crystal
[17:13] <mattbrejza> and when in breadboard it doesnt even need the caps because breadboards have so much capacitance :P
[17:14] <g0pai_ian> Copy that.
[17:14] <LeoBodnar> g0pai_ian: if you are familiar with Picaxe or PICs then why switch to a new MCU just because somebody suggested?
[17:14] <mattbrejza> because picaxe
[17:14] <alxwntr> Hi everyone - I want to enter a voucher code to an HABSupplies order, but can't see where to do it
[17:14] <alxwntr> any ideas?
[17:14] <g0pai_ian> alx it is on the order/payment page.
[17:15] <alxwntr> ok - got it. It's on the shopping basket page rather than when you enter your payment details
[17:15] <alxwntr> cheers
[17:16] <g0pai_ian> If the code doesn't work, make a comment so that Upu is aware and he will likely fix it and get back to you.
[17:16] <alxwntr> all worked fine, thanks. :)
[17:16] <alxwntr> I was advised to ask here about radio receivers
[17:16] <fsphil> Laurenceb: any old value. brightness and contrast are usually values between -100 and 100
[17:17] <alxwntr> it's a bit hard to know which are the best/where to look etc
[17:17] <alxwntr> could anyone offer any advice?
[17:17] <Laurenceb> fsphil: they are set to defaults
[17:17] <LeoBodnar> Isn't picaxe a bare chip?
[17:17] <LeoBodnar> or is it a PCB module?
[17:17] <mikestir> it's an expensive pic with a pre-loaded basic interpreter
[17:18] <g0pai_ian> Alx NTX2B
[17:18] <mattbrejza> usually bare IC though
[17:18] <fsphil> someone's still selling and making money of BASIC?
[17:18] <alxwntr> you mean the little unit that matches the transmitter?
[17:18] <Laurenceb> i vistied the home of basic last year
[17:19] <Laurenceb> dartmouth.edu/
[17:19] <fsphil> Dartmouth?
[17:19] <Laurenceb> yup
[17:19] <fsphil> cool. I think
[17:19] <alxwntr> I thought it was normal to find some kind of HAM set of some description
[17:19] <Laurenceb> cold
[17:19] <g0pai_ian> Sorry, on divert there, Reason for adopting Arduino is string handling to produce CRC16-CCit checksum. I quite like Picaxe for talking to sensors
[17:19] <fsphil> I'd like basic more if it was something that didn't really exist past the 90s
[17:20] <Laurenceb> and kind of poorly cloned from oxbridge
[17:21] <g0pai_ian> Alx, sorry I now re-read your question. Receiver? Are you talking ground station or on a balloon? Normally ground station use a multi-mode amateur receiver that has SSB (USB/LSB) mode.
[17:22] <g0pai_ian> Yaesu FT817, FT857, FT897, Icom IC7000 etc. Alternatively it's a lot cheaper to use a dongle type SDR setup.
[17:23] <alxwntr> Thanks Ian
[17:23] <alxwntr> yes, that's what I meant
[17:23] <alxwntr> so I should look for one on ebay?
[17:24] <alxwntr> I guess dongles are a lot less sensitive so I would risk loosing the signal, no?
[17:24] <Maxell> Anyone here that can RX me on 40 or 20 metes?
[17:24] <Maxell> I need to test my audio interface
[17:24] <mikestir> Maxell: freq?
[17:24] <Maxell> RX seems to work, TX not
[17:24] <Maxell> mikestir: uh, I could do morse to see if it works
[17:25] <g0pai_ian> Alx, I guess that you aren't a licenced ham. Check out someone that gets Radcom and check out the prices there before dabbling on eBay.
[17:25] <Maxell> mikestir: 20 meter band morse, 14.012 dial?
[17:25] <mikestir> ok hang on
[17:26] <mikestir> what are you aiming to test? psk?
[17:26] <mikestir> I can hear a cq on there but I can't read morse by ear
[17:27] <g0pai_ian> The difference between a ham rig and an SDR dongle, is to do with £30+ at the bottom end to £600+ for an FT817 at the bottom end of the food chain unless you can pick up a steal for £250 from someone that is daft and needs the cash . .
[17:28] <Maxell> mikestir: ah, hehe
[17:28] <Maxell> I can do bpsk also there :P
[17:28] <mikestir> Maxell: I've got the rig wired up to the pc now so I can rx digi if you want
[17:28] <Maxell> ok going to try pdk31 around 14.012 dial
[17:29] <alxwntr> Ian Thanks
[17:29] <g0pai_ian> I take it that you are aware that bpsk is good to go USB or LSB jus by retuning, not inverted like if you did the same with RTTY FSK?
[17:29] <db_g6gzh> alxwntr: a dongle with a HABamp is quite sensitive, but it doesn't have the dynamic range so can suffer more interference if you have nearby transmitters
[17:29] <alxwntr> so you think a dongle is perfectly sensitive enough to receive from the NTX2 at altitude?
[17:30] <alxwntr> oh ok
[17:30] <alxwntr> HABamp?
[17:30] <db_g6gzh> it was almost as if I knew you'd ask that 8-)
[17:30] <fsphil> the rtlsdr's are easily overloaded
[17:30] <alxwntr> sorry man
[17:30] <fsphil> the funcube dongle pro+ isn't so bad
[17:30] <fsphil> but more expensive
[17:30] <Maxell> mikestir: ok don't bother it seems to die as soon as HF comes out of the set
[17:30] <mikestir> lol
[17:31] <Maxell> the LED on it stops blinking :(
[17:31] <g0pai_ian> The guys here will confirm that one way or the other as they have the experience. fsphil has just highlighted the down side. Lack of decent front end tuning.
[17:31] <mikestir> I'm struggling to hear much this end due to QRM in the room (toddler)
[17:31] <fsphil> I do prefer an actual physical radio for chasing
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[17:31] <db_g6gzh> HAB supplies sell the HABamp - it's a preamp and filter to go between the antenna and the receiver
[17:31] <fsphil> the ft790 or ft817 are both good
[17:31] <fsphil> but the ft790 is rare now, and the ft817 is very expensive
[17:32] <mikestir> Maxell: have you tried wspr - you could drop your power if you are having rf breakthrough problems
[17:32] <Maxell> mikestir: no I need to get this working frist
[17:32] <Maxell> moar ferrite etc
[17:32] <Maxell> also noms
[17:32] <alxwntr> ah I see - I did see that in the store and wondered if that was what it was for
[17:33] <alxwntr> any recommended dongles to look for?
[17:34] <alxwntr> ah - just found the page on ukhas
[17:35] <alxwntr> a few recommendation there
[17:35] <mikestir> alxwntr: I have an r820t based dongle and a HABAMP. It's not quite as sensitive as my AR8200 but it's not a million miles away
[17:35] <mikestir> it does suffer if the local 70cm repeater fires up though
[17:35] <alxwntr> mikestir: thanks Mike
[17:36] <Laurenceb> fsphil: ok in windows there is an AutoExposure bool
[17:36] <Laurenceb> that can be enabled/disabled
[17:36] <Laurenceb> any idea why im not seeing it with v4l2-ctl --list-ctrls --device=/dev/video
[17:37] <g0pai_ian> As a ground station, you always have the opportunity to build a band pass or band stop filter to move you from the effects of the repeater. Get as far away as you can frequency wise and contemplate tuned stub to null it out.
[17:38] <fsphil> Laurenceb: the linux driver may not be exposing it ... pardon the unintended pun
[17:38] <Laurenceb> heh
[17:38] <fsphil> there are extended controls in v4l2 now
[17:38] <Laurenceb> right
[17:38] <fsphil> v4l2-ctl may not be showing htem
[17:38] <fsphil> out of curiosity, try fswebcam --list-controls
[17:38] <fsphil> you'll probably need to install it
[17:38] <fsphil> the 2014 version added support for them
[17:39] <alxwntr> g0pai_ian: thanks - I will have to experiment when the hardware arrives as it's all new for me
[17:39] <g0pai_ian> Laucencab: on Windows but not v4l2-ctl, facility of the program not implemented. Is this something that could be piped through ffmpeg to do the job? (video Swiss Army Knife)
[17:39] <Laurenceb> even fewer there
[17:39] <Laurenceb> ooh its old fswebcam
[17:39] <Laurenceb> ill manually install
[17:40] <g0pai_ian> alxntr: you are only about a week behind my research on here. I am a radio ham though so the curve isn't quite so steep for me.
[17:40] <Laurenceb> oh nice, didnt realise it was your project
[17:41] <Laurenceb> GD graphics library not found
[17:42] <fsphil> yea you'll need that -dev package
[17:42] <fsphil> it has various names, gd, gd2, libgd
[17:42] <alxwntr> g0pai_ian: nice - feel free to email me if you want to discuss stuff - alxwntr@gmail.com
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[17:42] <alxwntr> where are you based?
[17:42] <Laurenceb> ok it runs
[17:43] <fsphil> oh great
[17:43] <Laurenceb> i think
[17:43] <Laurenceb> doesnt do anything
[17:43] <g0pai_ian> mattbreja: Thanks Matt, I now have a Uno, will have 5 pro mini and will probably move to naked chips in the fullness of time.
[17:43] <fsphil> --list-controls should display something
[17:43] <fsphil> even if it's a failure message
[17:43] <Laurenceb> Exposure, Auto Shutter Priority Mode Auto Mode | Manual Mode | Shutter Priority Mode | Aperture Priority Mode
[17:44] <g0pai_ian> alxwntr: noted email addy. located Oldbury, West Midlands
[17:44] <fsphil> ah ha
[17:44] <alxwntr> Ian: ok - I'm in Cardiff
[17:44] <alxwntr> looking forward to hearing from you
[17:44] <Laurenceb> fsphil: but i have played with this already
[17:44] <Laurenceb> no luck
[17:44] <Laurenceb> windows has a bool
[17:45] <Laurenceb> to enable/disable auto exposure
[17:45] <fsphil> you where able to set it successfully to Manual Mode?
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[17:45] <Laurenceb> yes
[17:46] <Laurenceb> but it doesnt do anything
[17:46] <fsphil> ah
[17:46] <g0pai_ian> Fine business alx. Don't hold your breath, but I'll get back to you tomorrow some time and swap a few notes. Someone else suggested a HAB project and I embraced it and seem to be doing a lot of digging of gold nuggets which are revealed here. Read all, Note all, enjoy! :-)
[17:46] <fsphil> my logitech has a "Exposure, Auto Priority" boolean
[17:46] <Laurenceb> maybe old v4l2?
[17:47] <fsphil> if it's a newer webcam maybe
[17:48] <fsphil> hmm.. my logitech also has pan/tilt controls despite not being that kind of webcam
[17:48] <fsphil> are you setting the control and keeping the camera streaming?
[17:48] <Laurenceb> no
[17:49] <fsphil> it might be resetting it each time you connect
[17:49] <Laurenceb> no
[17:49] <Laurenceb> i can check it and its remebered
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[17:49] <Laurenceb> looks like im missing the correct setting
[17:50] <Maxell> mikestir: can you TX also? I got rid of the interface. Might try some phone
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[17:50] <fsphil> or it's an obscure combination of the existing controls that the windows driver is able to handle transparantly
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[17:52] <Laurenceb> whats the most low level way to probe the UVC interface?
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[17:53] <fsphil> a scope? :) not sure.. I've never worked that closely on usb
[17:53] Nick change: crash_18974_ -> crash_18974
[17:53] <Laurenceb> http://pastebin.com/GsNaaZLu
[17:53] <fsphil> I believe there windows apps that can dump usb traffic
[17:53] <mikestir> Maxell: yes but I have to put the kids to bed, and I guess it won't work so well once it's dark
[17:54] <mikestir> we can try though
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[17:54] <Laurenceb> bmControls 0x000200a2
[17:54] <Laurenceb> Auto-Exposure Mode
[17:54] <Laurenceb> heh
[17:54] <Laurenceb> i could use raw usb
[17:56] <LeoBodnar> hahaha what IS raw USB? [17:54] <Laurenceb> i could use raw usb
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[17:56] <Laurenceb> aiui you can shove stuff straight to endpoints in linux?
[17:57] <zyp> sure
[17:57] <zyp> that's what libusb is for
[17:57] <Laurenceb> heh
[17:57] <Laurenceb> guess i could make a little libusb application to fix it
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[17:59] <Laurenceb> this is odd
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[17:59] <Laurenceb> no Exposure, Auto in the descriptor
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[18:00] <Laurenceb> but fswebcam finds it
[18:01] <Laurenceb> GUVCView finds it too
[18:02] <Laurenceb> i wonder if v4l2 is missing the first VideoControl Interface Descriptor
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[18:03] <Maxell> mikestir: hehe 40 meters is booming
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[18:13] <Laurenceb> is v4l2 now built into the kernel?
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[18:15] <fsphil> yep
[18:17] <Laurenceb> yeah its a v4l2 issue
[18:17] <Laurenceb> its not picking up the first group of descriptors
[18:18] <Laurenceb> dunno where the auto exposure toggle thing is coming from
[18:19] <Laurenceb> but its non functional
[18:19] <Laurenceb> and the focus controls arent displaying
[18:19] <Laurenceb> they are there is the first descriptor
[18:19] <Laurenceb> guess ill try some libusb at some point
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[18:51] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:33] <Maxell> So I think I got the audio interface working agian
[19:33] <Maxell> too bad my licence does not allow me to go PSK on 40 meters.
[19:35] <mikestir> what can you do?
[19:35] <fsphil> really?
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[19:38] <Maxell> mikestir: 25 watts max between 7050 and 7100 kHz
[19:38] <Maxell> all modes, but psk is lower.
[19:39] <Maxell> And just tuning somewhere waiting for someone to bumb into the lonely bsker :P
[19:40] <Maxell> Lets put it this way: nobody is doing psk between 7050 and 7100 kHz.
[19:40] <fsphil> I've done :)
[19:41] <mikestir> I'll have a listen if you want
[19:41] <mfa298> sounds like a time to organise a sked online.
[19:41] <mikestir> although my streetlight noise is in full effect
[19:41] <Maxell> mikestir: ok, 40 meters seems to be open
[19:41] <mikestir> go for it - see if you can get over my S9 buzzing
[19:42] <Maxell> 7050.00 kHz USB bpsk31
[19:43] <mikestir> 7050 dial for audio at 1kHz?
[19:44] <Maxell> dial and audio at 1 khz
[19:44] <mikestir> yeah I can see it on the waterfall but the snr is too low to decode
[19:44] <Maxell> we could do domex4 on that same freq
[19:44] <mikestir> I did get a CQ and a de, so that might work
[19:45] <Maxell> Ok, Domex4 same freq
[19:46] <mikestir> again, I can hear it but you're not beating the streetlights
[19:46] <mikestir> actually I'm surprised - it's quite audible
[19:46] <Maxell> great
[19:46] <mikestir> would expect it to decode
[19:46] <Maxell> that could handle noise even better...
[19:47] <mikestir> put the audio up to 1.2kHz
[19:47] <mikestir> there's a continuous tone at 1kHz
[19:47] <Maxell> Ok, I'm there now. BPSK31? Or DomEx4?
[19:48] <mikestir> domex
[19:48] <Maxell> incoming
[19:48] <mikestir> nope. just too weak
[19:48] <Maxell> ok
[19:49] <Maxell> yeah, it is night
[19:49] <Maxell> damnit ionosphere
[19:49] <Maxell> ;_;
[19:49] <mikestir> I'll try
[19:49] <Maxell> Domex4?
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[19:50] <mikestir> yeah. I only get about 7W on 40m though because the PA is bust in this rig (and bypassed)
[19:50] <Maxell> hehe
[19:50] <Maxell> I did 25 watts
[19:50] <mikestir> stand by - it's not keying the tx
[19:50] <Maxell> ok
[19:51] <Maxell> I hear tones
[19:51] <Maxell> at 1 khz
[19:51] <mikestir> a sweep?
[19:51] <mikestir> I saw that
[19:51] <Maxell> nah, kinda stable
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[19:51] <Maxell> gone already btw
[19:51] <mikestir> I have a continuous tone there - I assumed it was local but maybe it isn't
[19:52] <Maxell> ah
[19:52] <Maxell> So no TX at your side or going to try 7 watts?
[19:52] <Maxell> ah sincoming
[19:52] <mikestir> yeah. serial port issues
[19:52] <mikestir> I had 3 USB->serial converters in use and it was keying on the wrong one
[19:53] <Maxell> gone now
[19:53] <mikestir> not decodable then?
[19:53] <Maxell> Ò8Y<NAK>wnLtiqúqýÝa8YùHMü9cwnFvwpGGG8çtn'nzerÃ4s6U
[19:53] <Maxell> nope
[19:53] <mikestir> lol
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[19:54] <Maxell> try some lower, 800 Hz
[19:54] <Maxell> hehe nice
[19:55] <Maxell> GGGai<SOH>ian<DC1>ur! cr
[19:55] <Maxell> wot
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[19:55] <Maxell> Squelch was on :(
[19:55] <mikestir> oops
[19:55] <Maxell> :P
[19:57] <Maxell> Slow hellscriber might work...
[19:57] <Maxell> You have fldigi right? :P
[19:57] <mikestir> yes
[19:58] <Maxell> Ok, going to send some slow hell
[19:58] <mikestir> 800 Hz?
[19:58] <Maxell> yep
[19:58] <Maxell> again?
[19:59] <Maxell> sending
[19:59] <mikestir> I saw something but fldigi didn't appear to notice
[19:59] <Maxell> heh
[20:00] <mikestir> 20m seems quite open looking at the wsprnet map
[20:00] <Maxell> ok, i'm packing for toady, thanks for trying
[20:00] <G8KNN> PI10DE?
[20:00] <mikestir> possibly more for dx though
[20:00] <Maxell> G8KNN: damn close
[20:00] <Maxell> again? :)
[20:00] <G8KNN> yes try again
[20:01] <Maxell> txing
[20:01] <G8KNN> brilliant... G8KNN de PI1ODE...
[20:01] <Maxell> Any better? :)
[20:01] <Maxell> \o/
[20:01] <Maxell> no
[20:01] <Maxell> not pi1ode :p
[20:02] <Maxell> i should be d
[20:02] <G8KNN> ah ok
[20:02] <sa6bss> try again, I gert some at 7000800
[20:03] <sa6bss> 70500800*
[20:03] <Maxell> sa6bss: slow hell
[20:03] <Maxell> lemme see
[20:03] <sa6bss> jepp
[20:05] <LeoBodnar> interesting factoid (and cause of many a frustration): Why do TCXOs have clipped sinewave outputs?
[20:05] <LeoBodnar> CMOS output would add significant power dissipation to the TCXO IC. The resulting temperature gradients on the IC and in the package would limit the ability to achieve the best TCXO compensation.
[20:06] <Maxell> sa6bss: ok
[20:06] <Maxell> sa6bss: someone else doing slowhell
[20:07] <mikestir> sorry that was me
[20:07] <Maxell> http://i.imgur.com/jFBCtcY.png
[20:07] <mikestir> and then fldigi was holding the key down for some reason
[20:07] <Maxell> yeah I should go
[20:07] <mikestir> that's just about readable :)
[20:07] <Maxell> nah
[20:07] <Maxell> I can't read that
[20:08] <Maxell> we should try this then the band allows
[20:08] <Maxell> showhell \o/
[20:08] <Maxell> crazy digital modes \o/
[20:08] <Maxell> afk now
[20:09] <mikestir> try tomorrow in the day
[20:10] <sa6bss> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/26543754/sl.jpg
[20:12] <mikestir> what's a really slow domex like mode? about 4 tones per second
[20:12] <mikestir> 14076
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[20:56] <DL7AD> good evening
[20:56] <DL7AD> fsphil: ping
[21:00] <LeoBodnar> evening
[21:04] <DL7AD> hi LeoBodnar :)
[21:04] <LeoBodnar> hi Sven
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[21:05] <DL7AD> i've got DominoEX to work without modulating the Oscillator.
[21:06] <DL7AD> but the PLL is not fine enough ....
[21:06] <bertrik> DL7AD: which transmitter?
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[21:06] <DL7AD> bertrik: Si4063
[21:07] <DL7AD> i try to switch the frequencies very fast. you can do it very easily with RTTY and its working good if the shift is big enough.
[21:08] <DL7AD> but dominoEX is pretty narrow and the pll has 20hz steps
[21:09] <DL7AD> its not working that good than i hoped.
[21:09] <bertrik> maybe with a slightly lower frequency crystal, it works
[21:10] <bertrik> to make it to 16.something Hz
[21:10] <DL7AD> yes on 2m
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[21:11] <DL7AD> additionally i have an error. it has a jitter on the unmodulated carrier.
[21:16] <DL7AD> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3qn03txwtpw6uhb/dominoEX.ogg
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[22:05] <Willdude123> So I'm trying to solve a problem set in C, my C program is 40 lines long and doesn't work - my python one is 10 and does
[22:06] <zyp> that's way too much python to equal 40 lines of C ;)
[22:07] Action: Willdude123 deletes all 40 lines of code
[22:08] <Willdude123> C can be a real PITA sometimes
[22:08] <mikestir> well if python is the right tool for this particular job then use it
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[22:09] <Willdude123> mikestir, has to be submitted in C
[22:10] <mikestir> might have been worth trying to understand the problem then instead of just deleting it
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[22:10] <Willdude123> mikestir, meh it was horrible code
[22:11] <mikestir> was it the thing with all the globals?
[22:11] <Willdude123> No
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[22:14] <mfa298> even if its coursework (so you shouldn't be given the answer) you'll find people will help guide you to the problem - if you don't just delete the code when it doesn't work.
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[22:15] <mfa298> 40 lines of C sounds quite short as programmes go.
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[22:16] <Willdude123> mfa298, I sort of had to.
[22:16] <Willdude123> I had no comments
[22:16] <Willdude123> I had too much going on at once
[22:17] <Willdude123> So I am going to revise the problem
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[22:17] <Willdude123> It's just wrapping around the alphabet with ASCII is somewhat difficult
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[22:19] <mikestir> if (++c > 'Z') { c = 'A'; }
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[22:24] <Willdude123> So the formula for calculating a caesar shift for a char is ciphertext = (character+key) % 26
[22:24] <Willdude123> Yet with ascii that might prove difficult
[22:24] <mfa298> you've got some spare curly braces there :p (although it gets confusing when people don't use them with single statements.
[22:25] <mikestir> mfa298: yes, one liners are banned in our coding standard at work
[22:25] <Willdude123> So I could iterate through two values in a for loop, the ascii value and the alphabet value (that being 0 is a, 1 is b and so on)
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[22:26] <Willdude123> Would it help to post what I've got so far?
[22:26] <mfa298> Willdude123: that sounds like the sort of thing that should be fairly easy to do. Just remember that 'c' represents a char with value 'c' which can also be treated like a byte with value 99
[22:28] <mikestir> just because it's an ascii character doesn't mean you can't do maths to it
[22:29] <mfa298> Willdude123: as something similar which might give you some ideas. In my gps code where I want to convert a character representation of a number into an int I do something like (i=c - '0') where i is the int, and c in the char.
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[22:29] <Willdude123> http://is.gd/caesarcode
[22:30] <Willdude123> Is my pseudocode rougly right? Do I need more detail?
[22:30] <Willdude123> Well, my comments
[22:31] <mfa298> is string something that's defined in cs50.h - it's not standard C
[22:31] <mfa298> there are strings in C++ which makes that code slightly confusing.
[22:32] <mikestir> yeah I'm not sure how helpful secretely typedefing const char * to "string" actually is
[22:32] <mikestir> I suspect if that wasn't done you wouldn't be stuck
[22:33] <Willdude123> mfa298, yes it is
[22:34] <mfa298> I'm not sure I like all their "helper" stuff (string/ isalpha)
[22:34] <mikestir> isalpha is real C
[22:35] <mfa298> I've never come accross that one before - you learn something new every day :D
[22:36] <Willdude123> Right, I might call it a night, this is getting really really really stressful
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[22:37] <mfa298> Willdude123: remember you need to define your variables - ideally in the local scope (most of the time if your putting it in global scope you're doing something wrong)
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[22:37] <Willdude123> Right
[22:38] <Willdude123> I don't want to see another line of C ever again :/
[22:38] <Willdude123> This is incredibly confusing
[22:38] <mfa298> best method for writing any code is start off simple and build it up. Half my code starts off as a set of functions that might just print the values their given.
[22:39] <ibanezmatt13> it's all good fun... afterwards... :P
[22:39] <mfa298> my process tends to be add a bit of code, try compiling, fix bugs, try compiling, fix bugs, try compiling, works
[22:39] <mfa298> then add a bit more code and repeat
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[22:40] <mfa298> half the time there's a segfault as well in the fix bugs bit but hopefully you won't see those yet.
[22:40] <Willdude123> I'll have one last crack at it before bed
[22:41] <mfa298> printf is the best debugging tool around - learn to use it - lots.
[22:41] <mfa298> potentially in #ifdef statements (when you've learn't about #define and #ifdef)
[22:41] <mikestir> Willdude123: you could also think about how you might do it directly in ascii. remember you can do "greater than" comparisons and arithmetic
[22:42] <mikestir> and presumably you don't have to use the modulo operator?
[22:42] <Willdude123> Don't know how else I'd do it
[22:42] <Willdude123> I could use modulo <whatever ascii for z is>
[22:42] <mikestir> http://www.asciitable.com/
[22:42] <mikestir> take a look at that
[22:43] <mikestir> and consider what happens after you add your key
[22:43] <mikestir> and what operation you would need to do to get to the letter you should have landed on
[22:43] <mikestir> you should start to see a pattern
[22:44] <Willdude123> It shifts by <key> and if it's at the end, it goes back to a
[22:44] <mikestir> right
[22:44] <mikestir> and that sentence is pretty much pseudo code for what you need to do
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[22:47] <mfa298> if you've got working python code one trick might be to slowly make it into somethign that looks like C code. Leave the python as comments and then add matching C code
[22:48] <mfa298> so if in python you have: def shifter(shifts, tocipher):
[22:49] <mfa298> you then make a C function (like you've got already) and stick the relevant python code into that as comments.
[22:49] <mfa298> then do things like the if statements.
[22:50] <mfa298> that way anyone helping you probably has a decent idea of what the code is trying to do.
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[22:52] <Willdude123> Right
[22:53] <Willdude123> I don't actually think the python code should work
[22:53] <Willdude123> But it deos
[22:53] <Willdude123> http://pastie.org/8813479
[22:55] <mikestir> it doesn't, for the reason you suspect
[22:56] <Willdude123> Yeah it does
[22:56] <mfa298> it looks like it would be close to what you want it to do but probably isn't quite right.
[22:56] <Willdude123> Ah
[22:56] <Willdude123> No it doesn't
[22:56] <mikestir> try it for large key
[22:57] <Willdude123> YEah
[22:57] <mikestir> first thing to notice is that % has operator precedence over addition
[22:57] <Willdude123> But it's a literal interpretarion of the thing, and would only work if the characters weren't ascii
[22:57] <mfa298> I'm assuming this should be a rot<n> application so in theory if key=26 the ciphered text is the same as the raw text.
[22:57] <Willdude123> Yes
[22:58] <mfa298> your issue in there is likely to be the precidence order in char + key % 26
[22:58] <mfa298> (char + key) % 26 is not the same as char + (key % 26)
[22:59] <mfa298> which is the one you're doing and which is the one you want ?
[22:59] <Willdude123> I want the former
[22:59] <Willdude123> I have changed it now
[23:00] <mikestir> however, you don't want your result to be in the range 0-25, you want it in the range 65-122
[23:00] <Willdude123> Can I just add 65?
[23:00] <mikestir> and what else?
[23:01] <mfa298> that line might actually be easier to write in C than in python.
[23:01] <Willdude123> mikestir, I don't know
[23:01] <mikestir> remember you have a number in the range 65-122 at the beginning of the operation as well
[23:02] <Willdude123> Hmh
[23:02] <Willdude123> Subtract 65?
[23:02] <mikestir> A has value 0, but 65 mod 26 is not 0
[23:02] <mikestir> I'll clarify that - A has value 0 in your cipher (but 65 in ascii)
[23:03] <Willdude123> Right
[23:04] <Willdude123> Might this work?
[23:04] <Willdude123> http://pastie.org/8813502
[23:06] <mfa298> that's better although you might still have some issues
[23:06] <Willdude123> It'll only do it properly for caps tho
[23:06] <mikestir> yes
[23:06] <mfa298> that would be the some issues
[23:07] <mikestir> but have a look at the ascii table again
[23:07] <Willdude123> Yep
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[23:07] <mfa298> and you probably don't want to do the cyper on [\]^_`
[23:08] <Willdude123> eurgh
[23:09] <Willdude123> So i should check if it's upper or lower case to check what number to add?
[23:09] <mfa298> should be an easy thing to fix.
[23:10] <Willdude123> Right
[23:10] <Willdude123> I got it
[23:10] <mfa298> I'd change one line, add two lines and remove: print ord(char)+ key % 26
[23:11] <Willdude123> It works
[23:11] <Willdude123> Now to make the C
[23:11] <Willdude123> If I can withstand the torture
[23:11] <mikestir> I agree with mfa298 that it's probably nicer in C!
[23:12] <mfa298> no need for functions like ord :)
[23:14] <mfa298> hint is in what I wrote at 22:29
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[23:17] <mfa298> yay email sent to vps provider telling them I don't wish to renew as they're incompetent (didn't quite use those words)
[23:17] Action: mfa298 wonders if they'll reply with anything interesting
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[23:19] <Willdude123> for (i=0; i < 70; i++) {printf("WOOOOOOHOOOOOOO!")}
[23:20] <Willdude123> Well, not quite there yet
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[23:22] <Willdude123> Still not doing it perfectly
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[23:26] <Willdude123> http://is.gd/cs50check so it's struggling on that, latest code is http://is.gd/cs50code
[23:26] <Willdude123> Hmm
[23:26] <Willdude123> Well, I could debug it somehow
[23:28] <Willdude123> In both the wrong cases, the output is longer than the input which shouldn't be possible
[23:28] <mikestir> I think you are missing an else
[23:28] <Willdude123> Where?
[23:31] <Willdude123> There a no ifs that need elses added are there?
[23:31] <mikestir> well look at the three conditional blocks
[23:32] <mikestir> what happens if the character is uppercase?
[23:33] <Willdude123> It goes in the first loop then bypasses the other ones (changed the second to an else if)
[23:33] <mikestir> right
[23:33] <mikestir> as posted it carries on to test for lower case (and it can't be both upper case and lower case)
[23:34] <Willdude123> I now have if, else if and else
[23:34] <Willdude123> But that's not the problem, still does the same
[23:35] <Willdude123> Oh, no it doesnt
[23:36] <Willdude123> Sorry for the caps buy
[23:36] <Willdude123> *but
[23:36] <Willdude123> WOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOO
[23:36] <Willdude123> Now the second part ;)
[23:37] <mikestir> as an exercise you could consider how you might do it without all the adding and subtracting
[23:38] <mikestir> or more specifically, without the modulus
[23:38] <Willdude123> Will do
[23:38] <Willdude123> Next up is the Vigenère cipher
[23:38] <Willdude123> But not tonight
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[00:00] --- Sat Mar 1 2014