highaltitude.log.20140227

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[00:04] Nick change: Maxell_ -> Maxell
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[00:09] <tester> Hi there. I have generated a payload doc. How do i test my tracker now??
[00:10] <Maxell> tester: You turn on your payload and recieve it with dl-fldigi.
[00:10] <tester> yes i have done that
[00:10] <tester> i get my data
[00:10] <Maxell> If it decodes, and checksum is correct it should be green and upload to the map.
[00:11] <tester> yes i have the green bar
[00:12] <Maxell> Whats the payloads name? PEAKSKY?
[00:13] <Maxell> Oh, the payload doc requires activation/approval.
[00:13] <eroomde> yes
[00:13] <tester> No
[00:13] <eroomde> no
[00:13] <Maxell> no?
[00:13] <Maxell> yes?
[00:13] <eroomde> yes
[00:13] <Maxell> hehhehe
[00:13] <tester> How do i get it approved??
[00:13] <Maxell> We take a nap
[00:13] <eroomde> ask on #habhub
[00:13] <eroomde> which is the channel for all the ukhas server stuff
[00:14] <Maxell> and then take an nap
[00:14] <Maxell> I'm going to do that now.
[00:14] <eroomde> always
[00:14] <eroomde> iam just leaving london
[00:14] <Maxell> Have fun testing!
[00:14] <eroomde> had a long and good meal and drinks with a friend
[00:15] <eroomde> nice to punctuate the time between days spent designign rocket engines
[00:15] <eroomde> which can get a bit old, while exciting
[00:15] <eroomde> like eating fillet steak conxtantly
[00:15] <eroomde> you'd get bored
[00:15] <arko> heh
[00:15] <arko> sounds like a good problem to have imo
[00:17] <eroomde> varietahh, as Cartman would say
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[04:13] <jarod> Google ballons out of Timaru lakes again.
[04:14] <jarod> http://www.flightradar24.com/HIBAL156
[04:14] <jarod> http://www.flightradar24.com/HIBAL153
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[09:48] <g0pai_ian> .
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[09:58] <DL7AD> morning
[10:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> Morning
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[10:15] <eroomde> morning
[10:15] <g0pai_ian> morning all
[10:16] <eroomde> good morning ian
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[10:18] <g0pai_ian> morning Ed
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[10:18] <LeoBodnar> morning *
[10:21] <eroomde> for name in names: print "Morning %s!" % name
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[10:24] <eroomde> should really update that work in in python3
[10:25] <Hade_> Any HABs goin up today?
[10:25] <eroomde> (map display names)
[10:29] <eroomde> Hade_: i don't believe so
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[10:31] <g0pai_ian> Silly question perhaps, but how many days a year are there at least one launch, wet finger in the air job?
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[10:32] <eroomde> 50?
[10:32] <eroomde> probably more than that
[10:32] <eroomde> 100?
[10:32] <eroomde> time was (spits out his chewing tabacci) two launches a year was quite a thing
[10:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> There were 118 flights I recorded last year but there has been 3-4 on the same day once or twice
[10:33] <g0pai_ian> So, relatively safe to estimate around three a week! It has to be a good thing if most are quality launches.
[10:33] <fsphil> 2 a year from me anyway ;)
[10:33] <fsphil> hopefully more this year
[10:33] <eroomde> possibly zero again from me this year
[10:33] <eroomde> balloons anyway
[10:34] <g0pai_ian> Bought a kettle yesterday. Packed up replaced within the hour, £10. bought a £5 one as a lifeboat, Replaced one 40+ years ago cost me £25.
[10:35] <g0pai_ian> Gonna eat technology in the future.
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[10:36] <g0pai_ian> Sounds ominous, are you thinking further afield (balloons anyway) - or are you the rocket man?
[10:38] <eroomde> 'the'?
[10:39] <eroomde> i was balloons for several years at university
[10:39] <g0pai_ian> A
[10:39] <eroomde> but yep, I lost my heart to rockets towards the end
[10:39] <eroomde> and then rockets became my career
[10:39] <g0pai_ian> I guess that it saves waiting for things coming down.
[10:39] <SpeedEvil> Pay rises are slower with balloons.
[10:40] <g0pai_ian> Less likely to be fired with balloons . . . Launch a rocket, fire a missile
[10:41] <eroomde> pay rises aren't that fast in rocket r&d either
[10:41] <g0pai_ian> I looked at CANSAT when doing my early research, around two weeks ago. I found that fairly interesting. Sort of satellite trainer.
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[10:42] <g0pai_ian> I was a Unix based programmer. Hate Redmond . . .
[10:42] <eroomde> i think unix just about rules here
[10:43] <eroomde> though there are a couple of windowsers
[10:43] <eroomde> but they'll learn
[10:43] <fsphil> osx is only unixish
[10:44] <eroomde> i'm on linux
[10:44] <eroomde> though i might go back to osx in that my next laptop will probs be a macbook pro
[10:44] <g0pai_ian> Alas, I was ousted by SAP (Ingres application developer/programmer) promoted to analyst programmer because after takeover they realised there was no programming to do and finally Windows took over
[10:45] <fsphil> just make sure your ssl libs are updated
[10:45] <eroomde> i won't be getting it for a wee while
[10:45] <eroomde> no real need atm
[10:46] <eroomde> my macbook air will be 3 this summer
[10:46] <eroomde> it's fine
[10:46] <fsphil> my thinkpad is sooooo old
[10:46] <eroomde> my thinkpad will be 10 or something
[10:46] <g0pai_ian> My next laptop will be an HP and I'll put SUSE Linux on it. I'm a chamelion flavoured Linux bod these days. I'll make a case for getting it in the autumn.
[10:46] <fsphil> and I'm torn between upgrading and risking getting a crappy screen/keyboard or keeping this slow one
[10:46] <eroomde> i was so so impressed by retina screens
[10:46] <eroomde> it's basically sold me on the mbp
[10:47] <fsphil> yea PC laptop screens have been stuck in 1360x720 land for far too long
[10:47] <eroomde> for extended typing i have my filco cherry-blue nice clackety thing
[10:47] <eroomde> also the MBP can drive two external monitors
[10:47] <eroomde> and i have at work (now) a pair of 24" screens
[10:47] <eroomde> so i can keep that setup but use the mbp as my primary machine
[10:47] <g0pai_ian> My thinkpad is a Lenovo S12 (? not looked recently) netbook, so a little crippled. Love a decent keyboard and an external mouse . . .
[10:48] <eroomde> and just ssh into the linux tower for extended number crunching
[10:48] <fsphil> my other issue with the old laptop is that each new distro update seems to break something
[10:48] <fsphil> I can't adjust the screen brightness anymore using the keyboard
[10:49] <eroomde> i might try arch next
[10:49] <fsphil> old hardware support just isn't a thing in linux anymore
[10:49] <eroomde> in a vm
[10:50] <eroomde> the arch wiki is superb, v frequently i find answers to general questions there
[10:50] <eroomde> and they keep them really up to date
[10:50] <fsphil> yea
[10:50] <g0pai_ian> Ubuntu bring out a good distro then waste it in the next release. I tend to leave things a bit long before upgrading to a subsequent release.
[10:50] <fsphil> certainly better than the ubuntu forums/wikis
[10:50] <eroomde> it seems to be a matter of pride, just as the man pages are excellent and complete in the bsd's
[10:50] <eroomde> rather than an embarassement in linux
[10:50] <fsphil> where I usually just find bad questions and stupid answers. or no answers
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[10:51] <g0pai_ian> I liked the man pages on Solaris, they had an example of the usage which often went a long way to aiding understanding, probably the same in the BSd's, which I think Solaris was developed from?
[10:52] <eroomde> i'm not quite sure how the family tree works
[10:52] <fsphil> my first website was hosted on a solaris box
[10:53] <g0pai_ian> My first 150 databases were hosted on Solaris boxes . . .
[10:53] <eroomde> my first website was hosted on whatever OS geocities used
[10:53] <fsphil> ah wait I may have been on geocities too
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[10:54] <g0pai_ian> Hotmail ran on Unix for a couple of years. Must have choked MS until they managed to migrate it to MSDOS
[10:55] <g0pai_ian> Did Big Daddy step into the gap where GeoCities was?
[10:55] <fsphil> the migration to windows server didn't go rather smoothly iirc
[10:55] <g0pai_ian> Would it ever.
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[10:56] <fsphil> depends. but you'd expect the company that makes it to be able to manage it
[10:57] <g0pai_ian> That is very true. = = = I'll be looking back but have things to do. Put 500g of dried yeast in a bucket last night and caught it as it overflowed, Now got to scrape it off everything and put it back in the bucket.
[10:57] <g0pai_ian> I feed it to naked girls . . .
[10:58] <fsphil> random
[10:58] <eroomde> ...
[10:59] <g0pai_ian> Don't get too excited they are bees and the yeast goes into protien patties as a pollen substitute so that they can get breeding baby bees for me. Back later. :-)
[11:00] <eroomde> phew
[11:00] <eroomde> good luck
[11:00] <eroomde> don't get stung
[11:00] <eroomde> or whatever it is one says to beekeppers before they go out and keep bees
[11:00] <fsphil> hive fun
[11:00] <gonzo__> he's had to buzz off
[11:02] <g0pai_ian> ?Do you ever get stung? Grins and says - good days and bad days. I also work with a bee farmer with 300+ colonies. Some days can be exceptionaly bad.
[11:02] <g0pai_ian> Gone
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[11:42] <mfa298> fsphil: reading scrollback, take a look at pcspecialist - there's a few laptops with 1920x1080 screens (I got a 15" laptop from them last year and it seems to be pretty solid - and that's running Win8)
[11:42] <mfa298> also you can buy the laptop with no OS :)
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[11:44] <fsphil> always a plus
[11:46] <StudentDeNayer> Hi i got a question if someone could look at the components i wonna use for my project, i wonna make a project where i can send GPS,temperature,height,pressure to my groundstation but im' not sure if this will do, the height will be 30000 meters, http://pastebin.com/rX91EUT0
[11:47] <Darkside> so thats all OK
[11:47] <Darkside> but you wont be able to use one of the RFM22B modules as a ground station
[11:48] <Darkside> the radio link budget at the power those modules can produce is generally not good enough for reliable operation
[11:50] <Darkside> at least, not using the modules inbuilt packet system. If you use the modules in 'constant carrier' mode, and 'twiddle' the frequency offset register, you can produce a low baud-rate frequency modulated output, which can be received with a suitable receiver on the ground.
[11:51] <StudentDeNayer> hmm
[11:52] <StudentDeNayer> How far could this rfm22b reach ?
[11:52] <Laurenceb_> /process.sh: line 37: 27175 Killed ../../Processing/dataprocess.m _""$d $H
[11:52] <Darkside> at 50 baud, a long long way
[11:52] <Laurenceb_> ^does that mean an error in the shell script?
[11:53] <StudentDeNayer> Is there any tutorials u know about this so i could learn it cause i never was educated in this, i'm a it student
[11:53] <Darkside> ukhas wiki has some info on this stuff
[11:53] <Darkside> well, on balloon trackers anyway
[11:54] <StudentDeNayer> Okaj thanks i'll look into that right away
[11:54] <Darkside> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning
[11:54] <Darkside> kind of
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[11:57] <StudentDeNayer> But with the 50 baud i'm limited to 50bps then ?
[11:57] <Darkside> yup
[11:57] <Darkside> for tracking a high altitude payload thats more than enough
[11:58] <StudentDeNayer> ah okaj
[11:58] <Darkside> that gives you one position update approx every 20 seconds
[11:58] <StudentDeNayer> Ye i'm trying to understand everything about this rf never saw it, so i don't know what all the specs mean even
[11:58] <eroomde> you're in the right place
[11:59] <fsphil> 50 baud doesn't sound like much but with it transmitting continuously you can certainly get a fair bit of data down
[12:00] <StudentDeNayer> Oh okaj, but Sensitivity = -121 dBm Output power range: +20 dBm Max what do they mean with this, i thought the lower the db the further your signals travels
[12:01] <craag> Yeah so that theoretically gives you a 141dB link budget.
[12:02] <craag> iirc we worked out that best case from a balloon was about 140dB
[12:02] <craag> So right on the ragged edge, and in practicality you need extra headroom to make it work with real-world effects
[12:04] <Darkside> craag: at 500 baud (the lowest i could get the module working at), i managed to 'ping'my payload a few times with a yagi, usign 100mW
[12:04] <Darkside> but it wasnt very reliable
[12:04] <craag> Yeah that's what I would expect
[12:04] <Darkside> i needed a few watts for reliability
[12:04] <fsphil> the poor payload was probably being overloaded by all those other signals it was hearing
[12:05] <Darkside> fsphil: actually not so much, the noise floor was quit elow
[12:05] <fsphil> ah, didn't expect that
[12:05] <Darkside> the power supply is the biggest problem
[12:06] <Darkside> or daveake's cameras
[12:07] <fsphil> was there a band pass filter on the RF line?
[12:08] <Darkside> nah
[12:08] <Darkside> well, nothing more than the output filter on th emodule
[12:08] <Darkside> which is crap anyway
[12:09] <fsphil> I wonder if the psu noise was getting in through vcc or the antenna
[12:09] <Darkside> antenna
[12:09] <Darkside> so i found anyway
[12:09] <Darkside> i put a ferrite on the power wires near the PCB and it fixd it
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[12:10] <craag> Hmm should bear that in mind with the 868 ukhasnet stuff
[12:11] <mfa298> also depending on where you are in the world the 20dBm output power isn't legal airborne.
[12:11] <StudentDeNayer> Would the rfm23b be a better choice instead of the rfm22b since i guess power is important ?
[12:12] <Darkside> unless you can use th radio under an amateur radio license, you're limitd to either 10mW or 25mW, depending where in the world you are
[12:12] <Darkside> so it doesn't matter so much what module you sue
[12:13] <Darkside> use*
[12:13] <StudentDeNayer> So it's 10db or less
[12:14] <mfa298> reciever selectivity/ sensitivity will make a bigger difference. Which is why most people use other radios to recieve the payload
[12:14] <StudentDeNayer> Ye we got a receiver at school who should do the trick i hope
[12:14] <Darkside> depends on the model
[12:14] <Darkside> it needs to support receiving on 434MHz in 'sideband' mode (listed as USB/LSB on the radio specs)
[12:15] <Darkside> or SSB
[12:15] <Darkside> if it doesn't support that, thn it won't work
[12:15] <StudentDeNayer> Okaj i'll check that asp
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[12:19] <mfa298> if you're not sure what it does find out the model number and chances are someone here will know if it's decent
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[12:25] <fsphil> decoding the rfm22b's native packets would be an interesting project
[12:26] <StudentDeNayer> If i can receive pakcets to start of i'll be happy already
[12:26] <StudentDeNayer> packets*
[12:34] <LeoBodnar> it's just 2FSK isn't it?
[12:34] <fsphil> yep
[12:35] <craag> I'm planning to give it a go with gnuradio for the 868 stuff
[12:43] <craag> http://www.mattvenn.net/2013/03/09/gnuradio-demodulate-fsk-received-from-an-rfm12b/
[12:43] <craag> Looks v easy :)
[12:44] <fsphil> hah, sorted
[12:44] <fsphil> that's no fun
[12:44] <craag> Still gotta get the binary data out
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[12:47] <craag> So bit sync and integrate I guess
[12:48] <StudentDeNayer> Quick question : Why do they use SMA for the antennas ?
[12:49] <mattbrejza> what woukd you expect?
[12:49] <mattbrejza> or rather use
[12:49] <Darkside> craag: bit sync is surprisingly easy to do
[12:49] <Darkside> well, symbol sync, which with FSK is bit sync
[12:50] <mattbrejza> Darkside: whats your refered method?
[12:50] <Darkside> symbol energy
[12:50] <Darkside> well, signal energy
[12:51] <Darkside> so in my case i'm demodulating constant amplitude MFSK, which has a constant energy, right?
[12:51] <Darkside> well, if you look at the output of the matched filters (basically FFT bins), you see a bunch of pulses
[12:51] <mattbrejza> well if you square the output of the decoder thats not constant
[12:52] <Darkside> yup
[12:52] <mattbrejza> then what i do is early/late sync
[12:52] <Darkside> you get a wavform with a strong frequency component at the symbol rate
[12:52] <mattbrejza> was wondering if thats what you used
[12:52] <Darkside> i.e. at 15.625Hz
[12:52] <LeoBodnar> http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/FSK-hi-lo.png
[12:52] <Darkside> so i use the phase of a single point DFT at that frquency
[12:52] <Darkside> when the phase is 0, you're alignd with a symbol
[12:52] <mattbrejza> oh right
[12:53] <fsphil> just brute force it, decode all the phases :)
[12:53] <mattbrejza> so dft over a symbol period?
[12:53] <Darkside> over a few symbol periods
[12:53] <Darkside> else repeated symbols will screw it up
[12:54] <fsphil> You could just mix the signal with a signal at the expected data rate
[12:54] <LeoBodnar> these are power densities of two tones over a bit period ^^
[12:54] <fsphil> wait, phase changes
[12:54] <fsphil> ignore me
[12:54] <Darkside> fsphil: some modes do just that
[12:54] <Darkside> they reverse the phase btween symbols
[12:55] <mattbrejza> any idea how the dft method compares with the early/late one?
[12:55] <Darkside> mattbrejza: not sure
[12:55] <Darkside> mine works quit well
[12:55] <mattbrejza> i would assume e/l has less complexity
[12:55] <Darkside> yeah
[12:55] <Darkside> uhmmm i have BER vs Eb/No plots
[12:55] <Darkside> hold
[12:55] <fsphil> I'm going to try coding that, sounds pretty simple *flw*
[12:55] <mattbrejza> well i would say my e/l works quite well :P
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[12:58] <Darkside> so i have about 0.5-1dB 'loss' btween perfect timing and the signal energy timing
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[12:59] <mattbrejza> pretty good then
[12:59] <Darkside> it takes a few symbols to lock on though, which may be an issue on HF channels
[12:59] <Darkside> but i think most other symbol sync algs are going to have similar problms
[13:00] <Darkside> i'm now integrating FEC into my modem
[13:00] <mattbrejza> what code?
[13:00] <Darkside> well, more accurately, testing FEC performance ovr some channels
[13:00] <Darkside> just convolutional atm
[13:00] <Darkside> still trying to find a working LDPC library
[13:01] <mattbrejza> matlab has it built in, although it may require a toolbox
[13:01] <Darkside> yeah i have that
[13:01] <Darkside> im using matlabs conv dcoder atm
[13:01] <mattbrejza> useful for generating a matrix
[13:01] <Darkside> also im getting better results with hard decoding than with unquantised, most likly because i'm not calculating LLRS corrctly
[13:02] <Darkside> or more accuratly, they aren't actually LLRs at all
[13:02] <Darkside> i'm still a bit fuzzy on how i should be calculating them from my FFT bin outputs
[13:02] <mattbrejza> im not sure how much better soft convolutional is than hard convolutional, although you would expect some imprtovment
[13:02] <Darkside> its supposed to be a few dB better
[13:03] <Darkside> like, matlabs documentation says with 3-bit quantisation its about 2dB better
[13:03] <fsphil> probably depends on the kind of noise
[13:03] <Darkside> fsphil: this is all in AWGN
[13:03] <fsphil> the ideal noise :)
[13:03] <Darkside> i test everything first in AWGN to check it performs against theory
[13:03] <mattbrejza> depending on what algorithm you use the scaling of the llrs wont make a difference
[13:03] <Darkside> then move to HF fading
[13:03] <Darkside> mattbrejza: well atm they arent rally LLRs
[13:04] <Darkside> really*
[13:04] <mattbrejza> is this a mfsk scheme?
[13:04] <Darkside> yah
[13:04] <LeoBodnar> Darkside did you attach to fldigi signal path?
[13:04] <Darkside> got any good referencs on LLR calculations
[13:04] <adamgreig> agwn is max entropy for a given power, so it must be good, right :P
[13:04] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: nop
[13:04] <adamgreig> I was at a fun talk about alpha-stable distributions for impulsive noise in comms
[13:04] <Darkside> adamgreig: https://www.evernote.com/shard/s78/sh/f16a2106-2276-4535-8e36-c0eae0bfe04b/2a17f6f897f9bdd9695ec8e1c1aea46c/deep/0/Figure-1.png
[13:05] <adamgreig> generalisation of exponentials within some class, which includes cauchy and gaussians
[13:05] <Darkside> Eb/No for MFSK16 vs time
[13:05] <mattbrejza> llr calculation for bpsk is easy enough, not sure how it extends for mfsk
[13:05] <adamgreig> cauchy is stupid, sodding infinite variance
[13:05] <adamgreig> doesn't even have a mean
[13:05] <mattbrejza> but i wouldnt normally grab it from the dft
[13:06] <Darkside> mattbrejza: its got to be calculated from the Es/No figure somhow
[13:07] <Darkside> and i'v got a running average of that
[13:07] <Darkside> and an instantaneous figure with each symbol (though it depends on the output of the hard decodeR)
[13:08] <Darkside> the way fldigi does it is interesting
[13:08] <mattbrejza> although youre currently dealing with awgn
[13:09] <Darkside> sorry, i'm not actually using the running snr average at all
[13:09] <Darkside> not for outputting soft bits anyway
[13:11] <Darkside> mattbrejza: https://github.com/darksidelemm/alltheFSKs/blob/master/MFSKDemodulator.py soft_decode function in there
[13:11] <Darkside> fldigi dos basically that, then scales it to 0-255
[13:12] <mattbrejza> 0-255? or -255 -> 255 ?
[13:12] <Darkside> 0-255
[13:12] <mattbrejza> so you have no negative llrs?
[13:12] <Darkside> its just represented diffrently
[13:13] <Darkside> matlabs vitdec function has a similar mode, where it takes quantised values betwen 0 and 2^(nbits-1)
[13:13] <mattbrejza> whenever ive used llrs, <0 = 1; >0 = 0 (or the other way round)
[13:13] <mattbrejza> where the magnitude is the likihood
[13:14] <Darkside> yeah, i did find that
[13:15] <Darkside> thats how vitdec's 'unquant' mode works
[13:15] <mattbrejza> certianly thats what ldpc algorithms use
[13:15] <Darkside> yup
[13:15] <mattbrejza> in fact, i havnt come across llrs being 0-255
[13:15] <Darkside> yes, but in C code, where you dont want to use floats, thats how you'd do it
[13:16] <Darkside> same idea, diffrent representation
[13:16] <Darkside> implementation specific
[13:16] <mattbrejza> so you have another part of the llr which is the hard part?
[13:16] <Darkside> eh?
[13:17] <Darkside> well i have a hard decoding method which just picks the bin with the highest magnitude
[13:17] <mattbrejza> or is 127 the 'no idea' value?
[13:17] <Darkside> mattbrejza: yes
[13:17] <mattbrejza> oh ok
[13:17] <Darkside> thats how matlabs vitdec works it
[13:17] <Darkside> http://www.mathworks.com.au/help/comm/ref/vitdec.html
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[13:18] <Darkside> ecoded = vitdec(code,trellis,tblen,opmode,'soft',nsdec) decodes the vector code using soft-decision decoding. code consists of integers between 0 and 2^nsdec-1, where 0 represents the most confident 0 and 2^nsdec-1 represents the most confident 1.
[13:18] Nick change: Lex -> Guest26320
[13:18] <mattbrejza> oh right, never seen that before
[13:18] <mattbrejza> not sure whats wrong with a signed 8bit int :P
[13:18] <Darkside> anyway, i dont need that - matlabs 'unquant' mode taks floating point values
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[13:19] <Darkside> so, i had a go feeding my 'soft' decoding outputs into matlab. after realising the sign problem (which gave me a consistent 0.5 BER funnily enough), i found that the 'unquant' decoding was performing 2db worse than 'hard' decoding
[13:19] <Darkside> which is a bit odd
[13:20] <Darkside> so its likely my LLRs arent really LLRs
[13:20] <Darkside> its more like a linear scale, not a log scale
[13:20] <mattbrejza> well for bpsk, the llr value is proportinal to the demodulator output
[13:21] <mattbrejza> so i would assume this is simular for mfsk
[13:21] <Darkside> yeah, which is effectivly what i've got too
[13:21] <Darkside> it uses the relative bin magnitudes
[13:22] <mattbrejza> do you know if the algorithm cares about the scaling of the llrs?
[13:22] <Darkside> no idea.
[13:22] <Darkside> well, it wants -1 to +1
[13:22] <Darkside> which is fine, i'm in that range
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[13:55] <Guest26320> Hello there
[13:55] <Guest26320> I was wondering if anyone could offer any advice about Arduino based tracking systems
[13:55] <Guest26320> e.g. Trackuino
[13:55] <eroomde> most people build their own
[13:55] <Guest26320> Does anyone have any experience/advice?
[13:55] <eroomde> with an arduino
[13:55] <Guest26320> Thanks!
[13:56] <Guest26320> ah I see
[13:56] <Guest26320> is the arduino a good PIC to use or are there better ones?
[13:56] <eroomde> they buy a gps receiver and radio transmitter, interface them to the arduino, then write a little code to glue them together
[13:56] <eroomde> the arduino is not a PIC
[13:56] <Guest26320> sorry...
[13:57] <Guest26320> I just meant programmable chips/boards
[13:57] <eroomde> the arduino is a development board and development environment that uses a brand of microcontroller called an AVR, from a company called atmel
[13:57] <eroomde> the PIC is another brand of microcontroller from a company called Microchip Inc
[13:57] <Guest26320> ah ok
[13:57] <Guest26320> thanks
[13:57] <eroomde> around here, it (the arduino) is by far the most popular
[13:58] <Guest26320> oh good - guess that;s a good place to start :)
[13:58] <eroomde> but almost any normal microcontroller will have no problem. If you're new to this, the arduino is atractive because of its ease of use and the number of helping resources available on the web (and here)
[13:59] <LeoBodnar> Rasbberry Pi is a good PIC
[13:59] <LeoBodnar> 180º(b)
[14:00] <Guest26320> cool thanks
[14:00] <Chetic> the raspberry pi with camera is a good idea because it's so damn lightweight
[14:00] <Chetic> but the rpi power regulators make me want to cut myself
[14:00] <eroomde> let's be nice
[14:00] <craag> Arduino >> Pi for tracking though
[14:01] <Guest26320> yeah! I saw some demos of the Raspi camera - it's amazing for something so small!
[14:02] <Guest26320> the trackuino uses the Venus GPS 634FLPx GPS - apparently good for high alt
[14:02] <Guest26320> It seemed like a nice self-contained module
[14:02] <Guest26320> perhaps easier than starting with just the GPS chip itself
[14:03] <eroomde> well, there is literally nothing left to do if you buy a tracker off the shelf
[14:03] <Darkside> we prefer ublox chipsets
[14:03] <Guest26320> ok
[14:03] <Darkside> dunno about the venus ones
[14:03] <eroomde> they're ok, not as good as ublox though
[14:04] <eroomde> sensitive, but the dynamic performance is not so good, though that hardly matters for hab
[14:04] <eroomde> but they're also a bit more sensitive to esd
[14:04] <eroomde> i have killed several just by looking at them
[14:04] <eroomde> also reflowing
[14:04] <Guest26320> any recommended model of ublox? there seem to be several similar chips
[14:04] <Guest26320> ha!
[14:04] <eroomde> the ublox max7 is probably the current default choice
[14:04] <Guest26320> I guess resilience is useful
[14:05] <Guest26320> ok cool
[14:05] <Guest26320> thanks
[14:06] <mattbrejza> eroomde: when you esd damage them, they dont work at all? output nmea but see no sats? or degraded performance?
[14:06] <Guest26320> only available in SMT form? My soldering skills are not great as my hands don't work so well
[14:06] <Guest26320> is it possible to buy them mounted?
[14:06] <craag> Guest26320: I assume this is for hab tracking, which country are you in?
[14:06] <Guest26320> yep - UK
[14:06] <craag> Yes, HAB supplies is the place you want
[14:07] <LeoBodnar> GPS chip surely shouldn't be difficult [14:02] <Guest26320> perhaps easier than starting with just the GPS chip itself
[14:07] <craag> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_60
[14:07] <eroomde> Guest26320: hab supplies run by upu will sell you a ublox on a breakout board
[14:07] <eroomde> for easy connecting
[14:07] <craag> Also the trackuino is APRS iirc?
[14:07] <eroomde> yes
[14:07] <craag> So illegal to fly in the UK
[14:07] <eroomde> so not legal in the uk
[14:08] <Guest26320> oh!
[14:08] <Guest26320> ha
[14:08] <eroomde> there is habduino
[14:08] <Guest26320> not such a good choice then
[14:08] <eroomde> but i think you'd get a lot more out of DIY
[14:08] <eroomde> assuming this is for fun/learning
[14:08] <Guest26320> just for fun, yes
[14:08] <Guest26320> and to get some photos eventually
[14:09] <craag> HAB supplies also sells radio modules that are suitable for HAB use: http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=71_63
[14:09] <Guest26320> <craag> & <eroomde> thanks!
[14:09] <eroomde> we always had a sort of unofficial thing about not making off-the-shelf trackers for sale, just so people would build them. i think most people who do make it themselves (90%+?) are pleased they did
[14:09] <craag> ublox + arduino + NTX2B is the usual combination
[14:09] <eroomde> yeah
[14:09] <eroomde> tried and tested
[14:09] <Guest26320> that's great - thanks
[14:09] <craag> There's guides on the ukhas wiki to connecting it up and coding it
[14:10] <Guest26320> awesome
[14:11] <Guest26320> cheers <zeusbot> just saw that one - great tutorial
[14:12] <eroomde> zeusbot is just a robot
[14:12] <Guest26320> *spot the noob
[14:13] <Guest26320> :)
[14:13] <eroomde> etc
[14:13] <nats`> don't tell him about the ft conversion :D
[14:14] <eroomde> i am american so i say balloons go to 100000ft
[14:14] <SIbot> In real units: 100000 ft = 30 km
[14:14] <Guest26320> isn't 100000ft a much nicer round number, eh?
[14:14] <SIbot> In real units: 100000 ft = 30 km
[14:15] <LeoBodnar> americans always capitalise themselves
[14:15] <Guest26320> makes a good target
[14:15] <nats`> nobody should use imperial crapunit anymore
[14:15] <nats`> it's not even a coherent unit system
[14:16] <Guest26320> anyway - thanks for your help, people
[14:16] <Guest26320> I will go and place some orders
[14:16] <Guest26320> nice to find a community like this
[14:17] <eroomde> well, welcome
[14:18] <craag> nice to see newcomers :)
[14:18] <Guest26320> I'll come back with a proper nickname next time
[14:18] <Guest26320> the one I chose got rejected
[14:18] <Guest26320> then perhaps you'll recognise me :)
[14:18] <craag> type: /nick name_that_isn't_taken
[14:19] Nick change: Guest26320 -> alxwntr
[14:19] <alxwntr> there we are
[14:19] <alxwntr> thank you
[14:19] <alxwntr> right - see you again some time
[14:19] <craag> cya!
[14:20] <alxwntr> :)
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[14:21] <Laurenceb> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/02/27/twitter_critics_slam_hideous_statue_of_steve_jobs/
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[14:25] <Laurenceb> http://www.perisoft.org/doomjobs.jpg
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[15:18] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
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[17:26] <fly_test> I have created a payload doc....Can anyone please tell me what to do now so that i can see my tracker on the map?
[17:27] <craag> Hi fly_test
[17:27] <fly_test> Hey Craag
[17:28] <fly_test> Its me Binay
[17:28] <craag> Thought it would be ;)
[17:28] <fly_test> Yeah wanted to the test the payload last night
[17:28] <craag> Looks like strangeness in your payload doc, one mo
[17:29] <fly_test> yeah the name's Mido
[17:29] <craag> Ah, so no lock at the moment
[17:30] <craag> But.. you've set up latitude to be ddmm.mmmm
[17:30] <fly_test> Yeah that's the format
[17:30] <fly_test> I get my coordinates in
[17:30] <craag> oh, I thought it was decimal degrees
[17:30] <craag> ok, well we need a packet with gps lock
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[17:31] <fly_test> Packet with gps lock??
[17:31] <craag> Yeah, so with a position
[17:31] <craag> All I can see are 0,0,0
[17:32] <fly_test> alright
[17:32] <fly_test> i will try it again now
[17:32] <fly_test> didn't have lock back then
[17:32] <craag> I've gotta run off
[17:32] <craag> But other than that, it looks ok to me so far
[17:33] <craag> Ah, your altitude in the payload doc is set as a 'string'
[17:33] <craag> That should be an integer ro a float
[17:33] <craag> *or
[17:33] <fly_test> ok
[17:34] <fly_test> connecting the unit now....will let you know asap
[17:34] <craag> I've gotta go, hopefully that works for you, if not then somebody else can help you out :)
[17:34] <craag> cya
[17:35] <fly_test> cya phil .Thanks
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[18:01] <eroomde> so those guys in new york stage were gonna launch soon
[18:01] <eroomde> if i remember correctly
[18:01] <eroomde> any word from them?
[18:02] <eroomde> new york state*
[18:02] <eroomde> it was a cubesat experiment testflight, looking at the noise floor levels across various bands
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[18:32] <craag> fly_test: Yo, hows it going?
[18:32] <fly_test> Hey phil
[18:32] <fly_test> i got it on the map!!
[18:32] <craag> I see you on the map
[18:32] <craag> yes! well done
[18:32] <fly_test> Thanks to you
[18:33] <craag> Looks like you need to put some filters on the sensor values
[18:33] <fly_test> it felt awesome
[18:33] <craag> to divide by 100 and so
[18:33] <LeoBodnar> is it GDP?
[18:33] <craag> But we can sort that out later
[18:33] <craag> yeah
[18:33] <fly_test> Yeah will work on that soon enough
[18:33] <craag> Probably best to concentrate on moving to arduino pro mini now
[18:33] <craag> Get the weight down
[18:34] <fly_test> yup
[18:34] <fly_test> weekend project.
[18:35] <fly_test> i mean try to do it this weekend
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[18:35] <x-f> couple of minutes to liftoff (JAXA) - http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/#.Uw-CAfSSydU
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[18:55] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[20:07] <fsphil> if it's clear there may be some aurora visible right now over northern parts
[20:09] <mclane> here is my new raspi based tracker: http://imgur.com/ANOw3tU
[20:10] <mclane> (not yet tested)
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[20:14] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi
[20:15] <Upu> evening Brian
[20:15] <Upu> looks good mclane
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> cool mclane
[20:20] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Hi Anthony. So im thinking about getting one of those SDR´s. Im not too keen on a funcube dongle, because of the ~300MHz gab, so im looking for another "as good as" general sdr rx 50-500MHz. Any recommendations?
[20:22] <OZ1SKY_Brian> sorry phonecall, brb
[20:25] <OZ1SKY_Brian> back
[20:28] <mfa298> OZ1SKY_Brian: I think the standard choices people go for are the rtl-sdr's or funcube (funcube is more sensitive and better frontend but lower bandwidth and has a gap in the middle)
[20:29] <mfa298> there's also things like the USRP and various other ones people have started putting together (HackRF, BladeRF and a few others) but I'm not sure what any of those are like
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[20:32] <OZ1SKY_Brian> I read about those RTL
[20:32] <OZ1SKY_Brian> There seems to be some versions of the tuner chips
[20:32] <mfa298> I think the R820T tuner is the popular one now.
[20:33] <mfa298> E4000 used to be popular initially but it stopped being made
[20:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> I'm using a couple of the E4000 tuners quite haiily but there is another due to appear shortly called Airspy http://airspy.org/
[20:33] <Geoff-G8DHE> +happily
[20:33] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yes i read E4000 should be the best, but is not made anymore
[20:33] <OZ1SKY_Brian> and R820T comes next
[20:34] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Hi Geoff, ok i havent checked out the airspy
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[20:35] <Geoff-G8DHE> No dates as such yet but it looks very promising
[20:35] <Geoff-G8DHE> or prices either ...
[20:35] <mfa298> ah airspy was one I was trying to remember.
[20:36] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yes it loos VERY promising, 10MHz spectrum!
[20:36] <Geoff-G8DHE> and a better dynamic range as its 12bit
[20:37] <mfa298> depending on what you're interested in the R820T tuner might be better. From memory it goes lower and will cover ADS-B (if you're interested in that, the E4000 has a gap near there so not all work for ADS-B)
[20:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> the question is how long can you wait ...
[20:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> at the cost of R820T I would get one or two at least
[20:38] <Reb-SM3ULC> i have an e400 and it works ok for 1090 mhz
[20:38] <Gadget-Mac> mfa298: E4000 works find for ADS-B
[20:38] <Reb-SM3ULC> it's the fc0012 etc that donät work at all
[20:38] <mfa298> it's certainly worth getting an rtlsdr or two to play with.
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[20:38] <Reb-SM3ULC> the r820t for 5 dollars on ebay.. buy 3-4... :)
[20:38] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 50-500MHz would be fine for my use, but with no gab. I have a ads-b rx allready
[20:39] <mfa298> the E4000 I've got doesn't quite do ADS-B I think it misses it by about 1MHz
[20:39] <OZ1SKY_Brian> I think ill get a RTL and also sign up for the airspy and wait
[20:39] <Upu> I ordered some 28.8Mhz TCXO's going to retrofit one to a R820T
[20:39] <Geoff-G8DHE> Makes sense
[20:40] <OZ1SKY_Brian> upu where did you get your r820t?
[20:40] <Upu> ebay I think
[20:40] <Geoff-G8DHE> there where somne e4000 still on ebay the other week but at a much higher price
[20:40] <WillTablet> What's the highest power output anyone's got on a hab before?
[20:41] <Reb-SM3ULC> OZ1SKY_Brian: buy a bunch and indulge non-hams.. :)
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[20:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> read small print - some say "or similar device" in which case avoid
[20:41] <mfa298> Reb-SM3ULC: for the E4000: 52 - 2200 MHz with a gap from 1100 MHz to 1250 MHz (varies) - from http://sdr.osmocom.org/trac/wiki/rtl-sdr
[20:41] <jededu> Got mine from here
[20:41] <jededu> https://www.cosycave.co.uk/category.php?id_category=61
[20:42] <mfa298> so you may be lucky and have the gap starting at >1090 or it might start lower (something like 1088 in my case from memory)
[20:42] <OZ1SKY_Brian> jededu thank you
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[20:42] <jededu> np
[20:42] <Reb-SM3ULC> mfa298: yepp, if one wants ads ti's the 820.. i hear planes 350 km away on stock antenna
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[20:43] <OZ1SKY_Brian> i got one of those m-lat´s boxes from flightradar24
[20:43] <OZ1SKY_Brian> so i dont need ads-b in the sdr
[20:43] <mfa298> Last time I bought R820T's from ebay I searched for "SPC-0155" which seems to be a common model number for them
[20:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> e4000 from states but not a nice price http://tinyurl.com/mxxhp48
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[20:50] <Laurenceb_> SpeedEvil: for your dryer idea
[20:50] <Laurenceb_> http://autonopedia.org/wp-content/uploads/crafts-and-technology/engines/USE6X15.gif
[20:50] <Laurenceb_> electric heater at the top, stuff to dry in the middle
[20:50] <OZ1SKY_Brian> So this is a good place to start https://www.cosycave.co.uk/product.php?id_product=287
[20:54] <mfa298> cosycave seems to be the popular place if you want it fairly quickly
[20:54] <Geoff-G8DHE> yup, you can cjop of the Belling Lee socket and fit yur own choice
[20:54] <mfa298> ebay from china might be slightly cheaper but can take a while to arrive
[20:55] <mfa298> or just make up a suitable cable with an mcx connector - although they're a bit fiddly to work with.
[20:55] <OZ1SKY_Brian> 7£ seems cheap, so ill better support our europans shops :-)
[21:01] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Done, made an order
[21:01] <OZ1SKY_Brian> thanks for the advices all
[21:04] <Maxell> Geoff-G8DHE: Belling Lee. Pal. IEC-169!
[21:04] <db_g6gzh> OZ1SKY_Brian: I got the same one from there (with an SMA adapter) and it's good fun to play with
[21:05] <OZ1SKY_Brian> db_g6gzh great, looking forward to getting it, might take a little week before it gets here
[21:05] <db_g6gzh> I put together a 4 channel NBFM receiver in gnuradio companion - can listen to 4 70cm repeaters at the same time 8-)
[21:06] <Geoff-G8DHE> Maxell, When I learn't about them 50 years ago they were just Belling Lee :-)
[21:06] <Maxell> OZ1SKY_Brian: well, they also buy it in china.
[21:06] <db_g6gzh> 2 on the left speaker and 2 on the right
[21:07] <OZ1SKY_Brian> db_g6gzh surround :-)
[21:07] <db_g6gzh> Yeah, I only have 2 speakers on the PC
[21:07] <Maxell> Geoff-G8DHE: hehe
[21:08] <Maxell> db_g6gzh: you can mix them.
[21:08] <OZ1SKY_Brian> I know IRC all too well, work at the catv company :-)
[21:08] <OZ1SKY_Brian> i mean IEC
[21:10] <db_g6gzh> OZ1SKY_Brian: do OZ callsigns get reused, I used to be OZ1LJC but let it lapse when I moved back to the UK and was curious if it would still be in the records with my name.
[21:11] <OZ1SKY_Brian> let me check that for you
[21:11] <db_g6gzh> thanks
[21:12] <db_g6gzh> eller tak 8-)
[21:12] <OZ1SKY_Brian> No hits on that call
[21:12] <OZ1SKY_Brian> in the goverment database
[21:12] <db_g6gzh> OK, I guess it just disappeared then.
[21:12] <db_g6gzh> It was quite a while ago.
[21:13] <OZ1SKY_Brian> They changed the rules a while back, so you payed a one time fee and then keept the call for life. You might have missed that :-)
[21:14] <db_g6gzh> Probably. It's similar to that here now, no fee but you have to re-activate on the Ofcom website every few years.
[21:14] <OZ1SKY_Brian> i recall something like 50£ or so
[21:15] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ok there is no reactivation here
[21:17] <OZ1SKY_Brian> send them a email and demand your call back free :-)
[21:18] <db_g6gzh> It might be interesting to try 8-)
[21:18] <db_g6gzh> Are you allowed airborne operation?
[21:18] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yes
[21:21] <OZ1SKY_Brian> anyway the national airspace is only up to 30km, so just wait to activate the hamradio band before 30km :-)
[21:22] <db_g6gzh> I had to do the exam as there was no reciprocal agreement for VHF and up calls back then. My colleagues gave me a quick course in technical Danish and I managed to pass first time.
[21:22] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Too bad there are no online testsd
[21:23] <OZ1SKY_Brian> -d
[21:23] <OZ1SKY_Brian> If you want it back, sent them an email and ask what to do, to get your call back. No harm done
[21:24] <db_g6gzh> The exam invigilator was rather surprised that I didn't really understand Danish and was about to take an exam written in Danish.
[21:24] <db_g6gzh> Yeah, I might try to get it re-issued.
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[21:25] <OZ1SKY_Brian> erst@erst.dk
[21:25] <db_g6gzh> I proably still have the original certificate somewhere.
[21:25] <db_g6gzh> OK, thanks.
[21:26] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Or contact person for hamradio Ludmila Slawinska, +45 35 29 12 74.
[21:26] <OZ1SKY_Brian> can´t find her direct email
[21:28] <OZ1SKY_Brian> well i just need to open my eyes, here it is ludsla@erst.dk
[21:29] <db_g6gzh> Thanks again.
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[21:29] <OZ1SKY_Brian> your welcome
[21:29] <OZ1SKY_Brian> weak aurora on 6
[21:30] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ma5dww
[21:30] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ma?
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[21:32] <OZ1SKY_Brian> yep was good, worked
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[21:35] <mfa298> interesting I don't reckognise the 'a' secondary locator (and can't obviously see it listed in the license docs)
[21:36] <mfa298> ah looks like it's a special one
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[21:39] <db_g6gzh> I just searched it and found a dx spot with Brian as the latest contact 8-)
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[21:42] <mfa298> its startign to feel like we have more regional secondary locators for special events than countries.
[21:45] <db_g6gzh> I wonder if Scotland will want a new prefix if they become independent?
[21:46] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hehe yeah
[21:46] <OZ1SKY_Brian> i just worked him
[21:46] <OZ1SKY_Brian> he´s still there
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[22:24] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_:hmm!
[22:25] <Laurenceb_> it self resonates too
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[00:00] --- Fri Feb 28 2014