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[00:02] <mfa298> Prometheus: most UK people use RTTY/DominoEX by shifting the carrier which then needs an SSB reciever to decode
[00:03] <Prometheus> ahhh very good ty
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[00:13] <WillTablet> What kind of stuff will people start putting on payloads when/if the airborne use is legislated for?
[00:14] <WillTablet> Aside from the obvious APRS
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[00:28] <gonzo_> probably much higher bandwidth versions of what we are doing at the moment, first off
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[00:47] <Prometheus> Ok I'm coming up to speed now with some of this
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[09:19] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Morning
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[09:33] <gonzo_> From AMSAT UK. May interest some of the receiving stations we have here:
[09:33] <gonzo_> This is JJ3GRX Toshi, soon to be launced cubesat ITF-1 project member.
[09:33] <gonzo_> After Deployment, the 1st path is right above western Europe from 7:20 pm on Feb.27 UTC. It is before the path above Japan. We strongly want to obtain reception data. Report via WEB form is greatly appreciated, but just e-mail "heard" would be very helpful.
[09:35] <mfa298> any information about what data they're sending
[09:35] <gonzo_> 437.525MHz I believe it';s sending morse (fast, 30/60WPM) on FM. I think that is a keyed morse one on a constant FM tx
[09:35] <gonzo_> http://yui.kz.tsukuba.ac.jp/?page_id=1083&lang=en
[09:35] <mfa298> i just saw http://amsat-uk.org/2012/01/19/itf1-cubesat-imagine-the-future/ which seems to agree
[09:35] <fsphil> CW over FM seems wasteful
[09:36] <gonzo_> there is also a TLE file for your tracking software:
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[09:36] <gonzo_> http://yui.kz.tsukuba.ac.jp/wordpress_yui_2/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/ITF-1.txt
[09:36] <gonzo_> I expect they want it to be receivable by people with FM radios
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[09:37] <mfa298> as a basic beacon giving people an easy way to hear it seems like a sensible idea.
[09:37] <gonzo_> most wastful is that such fase cw is going to be machine read by most people. And morse if an auwful mode for that
[09:37] <gonzo_> fast
[09:37] <mfa298> hopefully they might use something better for actual telemetry data later on...
[09:38] <gonzo_> depends if they have written it in
[09:38] <gonzo_> prob will not be uploading sw on a cube sat
[09:38] <mfa298> hmmmm "Telemetry information will be first compressed into binary data and then cut into 5 bits and converted into 10  15 Morse codes"
[09:39] <fsphil> :(
[09:39] <gonzo_> slower morse then fast data would be ok. But the logic of this escapes me
[09:39] <gonzo_> they could then send the 5bit cw using fsk
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[09:40] <mfa298> for that something like rtty/DominoEX on a FM carrier would make more sense
[09:42] <gonzo_> 50bd baudot is close to 60wpm anyway, so even that would have been a better choice
[09:42] <gonzo_> decode by holding the radio near your laptop/phone mic
[09:43] <gonzo_> (we have done that to get telem at a recovery site)
[09:44] <craag> I think someone's tried holding a phone next to a receiver, and getting someone on th other end of the call to do the same with a laptop for decode!
[09:44] <fsphil> I did that my accident a few times (dl-fldigi was capturing audio from the laptop mic, hearing the signal from the SDR played through the laptop speaker)
[09:45] <mfa298> all the times I've used mattbrejza's app I've done it with the phone/tablet mic against the radio speaker
[09:45] <gonzo_> hehe, did the rtty go through the phoen vodocing? Nice
[09:46] <craag> gonzo_: Not very well I think, but this was at the receovery site (chase team didn't have a laptop, were relying on DF), so it was strong enough to work.
[09:47] <fsphil> I see a flaw there
[09:47] <gonzo_> recovering a hab that dropped near, we had good sigs, so used the laptop mic and got the telem striings. No 3G, so just enteed the lat.lon into a hheld gps and walked around to get the figures to match
[09:48] <gonzo_> almost walked into the balloon. (it was pitch black in a field)
[09:48] <craag> Heh yes, gps apps are rather useful for that.
[09:48] <craag> fsphil: At least they had a radio..
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[09:50] <gonzo_> it was a twin foil, and they were still inflated, bobbing along the ground at chest height, still didn't see them
[09:50] <gonzo_> and at least it was not sending BARC,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
[09:52] <fsphil> I wonder if they got it back
[09:53] <gonzo_> I recon not. unless they were luck enough to be at the landing site
[09:53] <craag> They might have had a gsm/sat backup
[09:54] <gonzo_> that is true, didn't even think of that. I'm so imersed in radio telem!
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[09:55] <craag> hehe, some people are still on the dark side
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[09:56] <mfa298> on a similar note, I wonder if Brunel ever found their payload.
[09:56] <craag> the london one?
[09:56] <craag> yes
[09:56] <craag> Found in a backgarden
[09:57] <mfa298> although at least they should have had decent gsm/3g coverage.
[09:57] <mfa298> hopefully not surrounded by a broken greenhouse.
[09:57] <craag> Nope, all safe luckily, apparently landed right in the center of the tiny patch of grass
[09:58] <craag> The guy who chased it from south london found them going from door to door
[09:58] <craag> Chatted to them a bit about it, but apparently they were a little too excited about it all to take much in
[09:59] <craag> I believe they were planning another
[09:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> There was an email response I believe from the notes left on FB
[09:59] <craag> oh?
[09:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> it sounded promising from the brief comments on here
[10:00] <mfa298> from the earlier FB posts they had made it looked like were planning another launch or two (one from near oxford ?)
[10:01] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I think Upu and/or Daveak might have more info, but they deleted the FB thread.
[10:01] <craag> Yeah I posted on the fb thread before it got taken down
[10:06] <eroomde> that sounds ominous
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[10:08] <UpuWork> they were very apologetic
[10:09] <UpuWork> and asked me to convey their apologies
[10:09] <UpuWork> they did recover
[10:09] <craag> :)
[10:10] <UpuWork> and got some nice pictures apparently but they did ask that people didn't post inappropriate comments on their facebook page
[10:10] <craag> Are they planning another one?
[10:10] <UpuWork> not sure
[10:11] <eroomde> what kind of comments were people posting?
[10:11] <UpuWork> just a few pointed comments about doing predictions
[10:11] <mfa298> mostly that landing in the middle of London was a bad idea.
[10:11] <UpuWork> nothing terribly inappropriate imho
[10:11] <UpuWork> they know that now
[10:11] <eroomde> so not inappropriate
[10:12] <eroomde> but actually quite appropriate
[10:12] <eroomde> maybe they should listen - they might learn something
[10:12] <mfa298> probably inappropriate in that it's bad publicity for an engineering dept that should possibly know better.
[10:12] <UpuWork> I invited them on here
[10:13] <UpuWork> their Professor was quite apologetic
[10:14] <eroomde> mfa298: that's not inappropriate
[10:14] <eroomde> there is nothing inappropriate by any definition of that word
[10:14] <UpuWork> they felt it was
[10:14] <eroomde> just foolish on the part of brunel
[10:14] <eroomde> who gives a fuck what they think]
[10:14] <eroomde> they're wrong
[10:15] <fsphil> the callsigns on spacenear where a bit childish, but not inappropriate
[10:15] <fsphil> I doubt they even saw that
[10:15] <mfa298> sorry that should probably have been "inappropriate". I'd agree I don't think there was anything inappropriate, just things can could be considered bad publicity.
[10:16] <eroomde> yes, i agree with the inverted commas
[10:18] <Vostok> justbadpublicitythings
[10:20] <eroomde> wonder if it's on wayback
[10:20] <eroomde> guess wayback might have better things to do that crawl facebook
[10:23] <mfa298> comments probably disappeared to quickly to be cached anywhere
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[10:42] <BalloonYOLO> Trying to download the KML of my flight yesterday but whenever i click on KML it downloads a JSON file..
[10:46] <BalloonYOLO> No worries got the KML now
[10:47] <eroomde> post it up
[10:47] <eroomde> any idea why the low burst?
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[11:07] <BalloonYOLO> Well we overfilled balloon a bit and had to be a bit rough with it due to blustery conditions
[11:08] <BalloonYOLO> http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2014_Flights/EAL-TEST_20140225/
[11:15] <eroomde> what was the payload mass and balloon type?
[11:15] <eroomde> as 20km still seems low
[11:15] <eroomde> and it didn't go up that fast
[11:15] <eroomde> also the descent speed looked a bit hairy
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[11:35] <BalloonYOLO> payload mass 0.9kg
[11:36] <BalloonYOLO> hwoyee 600
[11:38] <eroomde> ah yeah, that is a fairly small ballon
[11:38] <eroomde> fair enough
[11:39] <fsphil> well it certainly avoided the coast
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[12:25] <g0pai_ian> Good afternoon, lunch time already . . .
[12:25] <g0pai_ian> A HAB 101 question I'm afraid: Pencils ready - When sending telemetry, is each sentence to be sent only once or is it acceptable, or desirable to repeat it?
[12:26] <fsphil> no harm in repeating
[12:26] <fsphil> but if you're sending at a slow rate there's little point
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[12:29] <mfa298> if you have new data that could be sent it would probably make sense to use the new data rather than sending old data.
[12:30] <mfa298> if all the data is the same it probably makes sense to repeat everything exactly the same (keep time and sentence ID the same as well) otherwise the predictions might get confused.
[12:32] <g0pai_ian> Thanks for that. Just slowly lining up my ducks so that I understand the conventions. Rgr on exact repeat, two bites at the cherry for stations at extended range.
[12:36] <mattbrejza> you might as well send always new data, its not as if the recieving software combines two strings to get one good one
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[12:37] <mfa298> and humans are pretty decent at working out missing / incorrect bits if there's a few bad decodes to work from (only likely to be of importance if there's no good data)
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[12:44] <g0pai_ian> I take your point best to update with a new sentence rather than to repeat.
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[12:47] <mfa298> if you're sending data at a high rate and don't have new data then repeating data makes sense. I'm not sure there's much need otherwise.
[12:47] <fsphil> the only other case is what Leo did, transmitting historical data
[12:50] <mfa298> hmmm, could be interesting to store a log of positions <1km that could be uploaded when the balloon is higher and repeat regularly after landing so we eventually get the complete flight track.
[12:51] <mfa298> doing it for ascent might not be required as often (when the launcher has 3G)
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[13:08] <g0pai_ian> In their early days, do people use Geo-fencing much to save the development gear ending up in the oggin?
[13:10] <mfa298> I think people used to use cutdowns (either geofence, timer, command based) although in the lat couple of years most flights seem to be done based off the predictions
[13:13] <mfa298> most of the recent flights with geofencing have used it more for changing the radio (so things like APRS when over countries allowing it)
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[13:24] <eroomde> mfa298 is exactly right
[13:24] <eroomde> since we wrote the predictor, that's become the way of ensuring recovery
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[13:29] <SpeedEvil> Bursts (as long as you keep within certain parameters) are while not entirely - quite predictable.
[13:29] <SpeedEvil> So being able to time the burst to within half an hour is quite possible.
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> Which gives you a really good idea of the ascent and descent path.
[13:31] <SpeedEvil> Once the day comes - you can get often a 20 mile or so diameter probable landing point. - before launch.
[13:33] <daveake> Probably an ellipse :)
[13:38] <mfa298> unless you happen to choose the day NOAA made up the data as the met office didn't launch any balloons.
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[13:48] <daveake> Ah yes, I remember that day :/
[13:49] <daveake> The weather front came in 6 hours earlier than they made up
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[14:02] <Maxell> "made up"
[14:02] <Maxell> Is it really like gambeling if they don't do any balloons?
[14:04] <g0pai_ian> Changing radio to APRS when over countries that allow it . . . "suggesting" move from ISM to Am Radio rules?
[14:05] <craag> g0pai_ian: Yes, as when operating in another country, you operate under it's Amateur Radio regulations, that may permit airborne use :)
[14:06] <Maxell> g0pai_ian: well not suggesting, there are places you can do it
[14:08] <craag> The funny thing is that the APRS is often picked up by UK digis/igates until it's well over germany
[14:08] <craag> (going east)
[14:09] <Maxell> yeah, the em field reaches further...
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[14:54] <g0pai_ian> craag: Airborne APRS is not legal under a UK Am Radio licence. Minimum allowed from what your licence will allow and host country will permit. ! Sorry for delay in reply, writing emails.
[14:54] <adamgreig> in the US
[14:54] <adamgreig> CEPT reciprocal licensing is not so clear I didn't think?
[14:54] <adamgreig> CEPT reciprocal with a number of EU countries ends up being equivalent to a native full-esque license
[14:55] <adamgreig> just the US doesn't do full CEPT so its actual law says you get the minimum between both
[14:55] <g0pai_ian> Not with a UK licence as a guest. If you take out a reciprocal licence with the appropriate administration you can, but just operating under CEPT you are still bound by the UK licence conditions.
[14:56] <adamgreig> you can take out a reciprocal license beyond CEPT in CEPT countries?
[14:56] <mfa298> g0pai_ian: I initially thought that it was the most limited from the home license and regs of where your visiting but upon looking through the UK license and TR61/01 I couldn't see any reference to that. Just that you operate under the regs of where you visit.
[14:56] <adamgreig> yea I don't think the UK license says you must obey all of it while visiting
[14:57] <mfa298> Over international waters you're supposedly limited to your home license and the allowed ITU bands. (although some of that is a bit silly, a US ham and a UK ham could launch identical payloads from the same boat, the US could use APRS, the UK couldn't !!!)
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[14:59] <g0pai_ian> That is exactly so. The radio doesn't need a licence to make it work, but In international waters you and a US licencee have different privileges because of your licence.
[15:00] <g0pai_ian> If you work under CEPT, you are working with your licence, limited by what the host nation will allow and nothing more.
[15:01] <g0pai_ian> If you fly a balloon, then I don't suppose that you are likely to have an address in the countries that you overfly to attempt to file for reciprocal licences ahead of time.
[15:03] <g0pai_ian> Is it apparent that whilst not yet an active high altitude balloon jockey, that I have read the licence comprehensively. In other areas I'm a bit more pedestrian, as you will have noticed.
[15:04] <g0pai_ian> If you do it and don't get pulled up, then that's just pushing the envelope . . . "Sorry and a slap on the wrist might be the worst. What are they going to do, Confiscate your station equipment (on the balloon)?
[15:06] <g0pai_ian> Unattended operation comes to mind . . . Request for you to switch off the unattended amateur radio transmitter! Time for me to shut up . . .
[15:08] <mfa298> g0pai_ian: it might be useful if you can point to the clauses that say that sometime. I had thought the same and spent a while looking through the current license terms and couldnt see anything stating you were limited to the home terms when operating under CEPT. (My assumption was I was remembering something from the old BR68 rules which has since changed)
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[15:08] <eroomde> some of us did consider getting a us license
[15:08] <eroomde> to operate internationally
[15:09] <eroomde> but it's sort of sledgehammering a nut that no one much cares about
[15:10] <craag> "The CEPT Licence permits utilisation of all frequency bands allocated to the Amateur Service and Amateur
[15:10] <craag> Satellite Service and authorised in the country where the amateur station is to be operated."
[15:11] <craag> ^^ That would imply to me that the restrictions imposed by the UK license do not apply under a CEPT agreement.
[15:11] <craag> TR61-01 2003, not sure if it's the up-to-date version, but can't see why that would have changed.
[15:12] <mfa298> From memory there's also a very clear clause about operating in international waters and that the UK terms apply as well as the ITU bandplan
[15:13] <g0pai_ian> Yes, BR68 is well and truly dead. It may well be a sledgemammer. I will look later and give you the details or conceed the point as appropriate. Above National airspace which is 100,000ft (?) you are in international near/outer space
[15:13] <SIbot> In real units: 100,000 ft = 30 km
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[15:14] <g0pai_ian> mfa298: yes you are correct. Note the modification to your UK callsign as you fly over other countries PA/G0PAI over netherlands if you are below outer space . . .
[15:14] <eroomde> not sure, 60,000ft is the limit of airspace as far as the CAA is concerned
[15:14] <SIbot> In real units: 60,000 ft = 18 km
[15:15] <eroomde> you can do what you like above that, until you get to 100km where a different (space) set of laws take over
[15:15] <craag> mfa298: 9(6) In international waters, use of radio spectrum is restricted by both Schedule 1 and the ITU region allocations. (paraphrased)
[15:15] <g0pai_ian> Fair comment, I usually put (?) when I think that I might be incorrect.
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[15:16] <g0pai_ian> I'm not sure where the upper boundaries are and the majority of Hams will be thinking of statins at ground level so it's not something much explored.
[15:17] <eroomde> it's all a bit complicated
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[15:18] <eroomde> likewise using license power to do uplinks to hab
[15:18] Nick change: Guest77873 -> nigelvh
[15:18] <eroomde> is it remote equipment?
[15:19] <eroomde> the license was quite ambiguous, ofcom when asked said well it's basically fine isn't it, and v much within the spirit of remote station rules, just stop if you get interference complaints
[15:19] <g0pai_ian> eroomde: does that mean that that above 100k you have to get your frequency arbitrated(?) with the people that allocate frequencies for satellite use?
[15:20] <g0pai_ian> BR68 used to read a bit like a legal document which it was. The current licence from Ofcom is wooly at best and when challenged, you will be told that it means what you want it to mean and if anyone really disagrees, then what it actually means will come out in a court of law and perhaps we shouldn't be asking
[15:21] <eroomde> g0pai_ian: i believe so, eg i think all amsats have NoVs
[15:21] <g0pai_ian> So yes, experiment, push the envelope as far as it will go and if challenced be prepared to smile and say sorry.
[15:22] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> That's the method - if it doesn't say you can't try it until they make there minds up ;-)
[15:23] <g0pai_ian> eroomde: I belive that you are right. = = = obviously not a lot of balloon activity today . . . Strangely, I do have friends but like to investigate the details, which is what brought me here for research in the first place.
[15:24] <eroomde> plenty of precedent there with hams :)
[15:25] <eroomde> better to legally talk about the weather on an fm repeater that bend the rules to do some amateur science
[15:25] <eroomde> than*
[15:26] <eroomde> (I say this as a ham too - M0TEK)
[15:26] <g0pai_ian> I believe that the Radio Control FPV (First Person Viewer) pilots use 5.8GHz although it's a mute point whether it's strictly legal. Limited range and flight duration. What's right and what's wrong is all a matter of whether the next set of rules has come into being or not. If we aren't making it up someone else is you can bet, and getting paid for it to boot.
[15:27] <g0pai_ian> Rgr Ed, QSL
[15:29] <gonzo_> the 5.8ghz is legal for airborne use, but limited eirp, compares with ground based use
[15:29] <gonzo_> similar with 2.4ghz
[15:29] <eroomde> i was interested in radar on 5.8
[15:29] <eroomde> for model use
[15:29] <eroomde> but IR2030 looks a bit unpromising
[15:30] <eroomde> might get an experimental permit and go on 10GHz
[15:30] <eroomde> but it'd be nice to use ISM
[15:30] <eroomde> you can do 24GHz but i'm not sure i have the skillz/facilities to go that high
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> 60GHz would be nice
[15:31] <SpeedEvil> If only hw was readily available
[15:31] <mfa298> I think there's various groups that do things with radio that's slightly beyond what the rules allow (FPV being one, I've also seen similar stuff from hanggliders and similar)
[15:33] <g0pai_ian> I guess that when people start to do something that the licence doesn't cover, then it's likely to get bent and eventually changed one way or another, it's all about horse trading at the end of the day.
[15:35] <g0pai_ian> Availability of suitable equipment at affordable prices is always going to be a limiter somewhere. I remember when 70cm was pretty much the province of ex PMR/military gear and sounded very tinny. That wasn't so long ago. I also remember when my horizons were limited to 30MHz.
[15:35] <g0pai_ian> Encryption is a subject for another day . . . :-)
[15:36] <eroomde> i only got into radio as an undergrad (last few years) so I've not known a world without MMICs
[15:37] <gonzo_> the sat tv and phones indusrty have given us some really nice components
[15:37] <gonzo_> to the point that building microwave kit is easier than HF!
[15:37] <g0pai_ian> Believe me, I think that this is the golden age of radio, where people are thinking of 6GHz as being almost DC. Couldn;t agree more gonzo:
[15:38] <g0pai_ian> Maybe not easier, but often a lot cheaper because of scale.
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[16:10] <LeoBodnar> g0pai_ian are you campaigning for abandoning the use of APRS on the balloons launched by the UK radio amateurs?
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[16:21] <Laurenceb> SpeedEvil: http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Cold_20Mechanical_20Steam_20Compression_20Dryer
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[16:38] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: I'm not sure it was within an order of magnitude of that, even
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[16:40] Action: WillTablet didn't think he'd do so badly on the technician practice tests
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[16:50] <Geoff-G8DHE> Do we know who flew the Kiwi flight ? http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2014_Flights/KIWI_20140225/
[16:54] <fsphil> it looks like a test
[16:54] <fsphil> seems to have been repeated
[16:54] <fsphil> if you look at the altitude graph
[16:54] <fsphil> and the suspicious burst altitude
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[16:55] <Geoff-G8DHE> It was a bit low agreed but without knowing the details - ah timing gives it away rather fast flight! I'll remove that then!
[16:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> Thanks Phil!
[16:59] <fsphil> 20000 burst altitude :)
[16:59] <fsphil> it looks like they've taken the output of the predictor and used it in a simulated flight
[17:00] <Geoff-G8DHE> Yes I think your right, I was suprised that the Start point out of the EPT was at a weird height as well.
[17:01] <Geoff-G8DHE> Good idea if they passed thru the tracker software however to prove the maths in the code!
[17:04] <fsphil> yes everyone should simulate a flight, especially through the meridian :)
[17:04] <adamgreig> I remember just getting in the car and going for a quick drive ;)
[17:05] <adamgreig> then pulling up in a layby to fix the bug and driving back :P
[17:05] <Geoff-G8DHE> Think the Kiwi's will have a problem with the Meridian line however!
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[17:10] <fsphil> they may have an issue with dragons atm
[17:11] <fsphil> http://i.imgur.com/d6dzx52.jpg
[17:11] <g0pai_ian> LeoBodnar: Not in the least, but must confess that I am not an APRS saavy person. In the same way that transmitters don't actually need a licence or type approval to work, it's a nicety. Hopefully airborne operation will be debated in the Ofcom consultancy when it's gets going. I'm just not convinced and to he honest, the success of the UKHAA/UKHAB community seem to have dug themselves a very nice pond because of it and as so
[17:13] <g0pai_ian> What happens if you managed to land a package in NZ . . . their officials would go ape if it looked at all dirty or had McDonalds wiped upon it before arrival :)
[17:13] <Geoff-G8DHE> Makes the pilot reach for the throttles, with that coming upbehind them!
[17:14] <g0pai_ian> They used to feed their Manuka honey to the pigs before a few bright marketing types put their mind to it.
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[17:18] <WillTablet> g0pai_ian: APRS is often better as it needs no people specifically listening for the flight for it to work
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[17:20] <g0pai_ian> You all looking at getting older and lazier then . . . couch balloonists? :-)
[17:20] <WillTablet> What do you mean?
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[17:21] <g0pai_ian> Batchwork balloon flights. Hands off and letting APRS do the work unattended while having a snooze mid afternoon . . .
[17:28] <WillTablet> g0pai_ian: and do you suppose people would want to launch a balloon then
[17:29] <WillTablet> That's like saying that we should be using dial up because fibre is too easy
[17:30] <g0pai_ian> I'm actually saying that had APRS been available, you wouldn't be doing quite as much as you are with 10mW and the tracking that you have all been a part of developing.
[17:31] <adamgreig> necessity is the mother of invention, for sure
[17:31] <g0pai_ian> Which on reflection would have been a bit of a shame. You all done well, in spite of the limitations. I'm here to learn and adopt new thinking.
[17:31] <adamgreig> but maybe people would be doing more things on those balloons
[17:31] <adamgreig> can't say what people would have come up with if we were allowed to use tens of watts airborne
[17:32] <g0pai_ian> adamgreig: what would you suggest, other than different tx modes etc. Other experiments?
[17:32] <adamgreig> I don't know :P if I could think of things to do, I'd be doing them!
[17:33] <adamgreig> we might well have seen live video and airborne repeaters etc much earlier
[17:33] <adamgreig> though I note we do have very low fps live video and people are working on some very clever airborne repeaters already
[17:34] <g0pai_ian> I think we might all be saying things like that on a regular basis. Live video would be good, but power hungry(?) worthwhile on the descent to note that the package is in the garden with the rotweiler and the bouncy castle.
[17:35] <adamgreig> :P
[17:35] <g0pai_ian> With satellites, in the US at least, is there a rule about cameras not pointing down at the earth - Kim Il Sun would take a dim view of a $50 spy balloon overflight. Don't suppose he would spend a lot of money to pop it.
[17:37] <LeoBodnar> it's purely his problem unless you want the balloon back
[17:37] <LeoBodnar> I look at floating balloons as pretty much abandoned property
[17:38] <g0pai_ian> That's easier to do when it's a group and not a personal effort. You are all in the same boat and not the only one bearing the cost.
[17:38] <LeoBodnar> Belarus used to shoot down stray meteorological balloons straying from the West. But they surely stopped after the incident.
[17:39] <g0pai_ian> Incident?
[17:39] <LeoBodnar> However quite a few latex floaters popped over Belarus
[17:39] <Laurenceb> heh
[17:39] <LeoBodnar> it costs massive amount of money to bring a balloon down
[17:40] <Laurenceb> laser cannon
[17:40] <g0pai_ian> It costs a lot to develop a laser cannon. Free test subjects
[17:41] <g0pai_ian> LeoBodnar: What was "the Incident" ?
[17:41] <Laurenceb> *x-files music*
[17:42] <g0pai_ian> I had visions of what you shoot up in the air eventually comes down somewhere, and with more impact that a balloon package on a chute.
[17:42] <LeoBodnar> http://www.nytimes.com/1995/09/14/world/2-american-balloonists-die-when-shot-down-in-belarus.html
[17:46] <g0pai_ian> Oh!
[17:46] <LeoBodnar> apparently they were trying to terminate what they thought was a meteorological sonde
[17:47] <g0pai_ian> Belarus fighter pilots must have the same sort of eyesight as our allies. and are probably fed uppers to keep them alert.
[17:59] Nick change: kc2pit_ -> kc2pit
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[18:37] <mclane> ping upu
[18:37] <Upu> hi mclane
[18:38] <mclane> good evening, upu; just a quick question: are the NTX2b with the special firmware already available in your store? - I just received the pcb for my RasPi tracker
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[18:39] <Upu> sorry no
[18:39] <Upu> the programmer hasn't work as expected and I need to diagnose it further
[18:39] <Upu> could be a few weeks sorry
[18:40] <mclane> ok; then I will go ahead with those which I have already
[18:41] <Upu> sure when I get the programmer working I'll annouce on mailing list
[18:41] <mclane> I am very eager to see if the ublox works in my configuration; I may have results on the weekend
[18:41] <Upu> something new ?
[18:41] <eroomde> didn't steve publish ( am i imagining this?) details of the protocol?
[18:41] <eroomde> so doing it yourself should be trivial
[18:42] <eroomde> i am possiblyimagining this, ideas conflate in head
[18:42] <LeoBodnar> it's probably details of communication with the new firmware
[18:42] <eroomde> oh
[18:42] <eroomde> i don't keep up with stuff
[18:42] <mclane> no its not about the sw; I am curious if I have the HW / pcb design richt with the ceramic antenna
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[18:43] <mclane> distance to ground planes and such
[18:43] <Upu> ok
[18:43] <eroomde> ceramic antenna for an ntx2b?
[18:43] <mclane> no ublox
[18:43] <eroomde> who is the president?
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[18:45] <eroomde> http://whatyearisit.info/img/what_year_is_it.jpg
[18:45] <eroomde> i was just confused
[18:46] <eroomde> you seemed to imply that you wanted the ntx2b in order to see if your gps was working
[18:46] <eroomde> which didn't follow, to me
[18:46] <eroomde> i probably just misread
[18:48] <eroomde> i'm getting less good at working in the evenings
[18:48] <eroomde> ioi'm on a bus atm, heading to london, thought i could get 90 mins of coding done. tried 10 minutes, brain hurt, gave up
[18:49] <adamgreig> age :(
[18:49] <adamgreig> my productive evenings are defo getting fewer and further between. sure I got more done as an undergrad, and I distinctly remember being sure I got way way way more things done as a schoolkid than an undergrad.
[18:50] <adamgreig> probably just fallible memory
[18:50] <fsphil> you're doing cooler more complicated stuff now
[18:50] <fsphil> takes longer
[18:51] <eroomde> yeah
[18:51] <eroomde> i remember when 1 hour was ages
[18:51] <LeoBodnar> Is this a... What day is this.. ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJjCnWm5cvE
[18:53] <eroomde> i was out last night, i attribut tiredness to that
[18:54] <adamgreig> fsphil: perhaps. but it still feels like I just have many fewer blocks of time where loads of things happen, and many more blocks where nothing much gets accomplished
[18:54] <adamgreig> hard to be sure I guess
[18:55] <fsphil> JEFF BRIDGES
[18:55] <eroomde> i know what you mean adamgreig
[18:55] <fsphil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCmeQaXuFig
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[18:56] <eroomde> perhaps i play less
[18:56] <eroomde> maybe i need to play more
[18:56] <eroomde> and then hack on thngs without responsibility
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[18:58] <eroomde> knowing that your ability to feed yourself is guarateed and not a function of how you choose to spend your time
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[18:58] <fsphil> I tend to use up all my energy at work doing silly stuff
[18:58] <adamgreig> yea quite possibly
[18:58] <fsphil> none left for hacking at home
[18:58] <adamgreig> or that
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[18:59] <adamgreig> or what I'm doing. at school, day to day stuff is so orthogonal to my playing on stuff
[18:59] <adamgreig> as an undergrad day to day stuff looked more like what I'd otherwise do in my spare time
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[18:59] <adamgreig> now, my phd stuff is really very similar to what I might want to do personally
[19:00] <adamgreig> plus now I also have to worry about cooking meals, keeping the house tidy, and get home ever later. so I guess there's less time and I'm less inclined to spend it doing similar things to the day job anyway
[19:00] <adamgreig> but that's kind of rubbish :P
[19:00] <adamgreig> can't really complain, on balance
[19:00] <adamgreig> phd life is pretty great
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[19:05] <fsphil> I think I would have enjoyed it
[19:05] <eroomde> i want to get back to working on the hovering rocket
[19:05] <eroomde> i feel like good things will come of that
[19:05] <arko> yes
[19:05] <fsphil> all the rage at the moment
[19:06] <arko> werent you guys working on that like a year or two ago?
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[19:15] <eroomde> arko: yes
[19:15] <eroomde> it didn't get touched last year
[19:15] <eroomde> criminal
[19:16] <arko> :O
[19:16] <arko> send it to me :)
[19:16] <arko> i'll work on it
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[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> gello
[19:26] <Lunar_Lander> hello
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[19:36] <LeoBodnar> jello
[19:36] <Lunar_Lander> :)
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[19:40] <mfa298> mellow
[19:40] <Lunar_Lander> xD http://metro.co.uk/2014/02/23/worst-football-team-finally-wins-a-game-after-171-attempts-4315525/
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[19:42] <Babs_> ping jcoxon
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[19:43] <jcoxon> hey Babs_
[19:44] <Babs_> Hey jcoxon - still trying to figure out where i am going wrong with the ublox codes
[19:44] <jcoxon> so i just use the ones i find
[19:44] <jcoxon> i don't try and generate them myself
[19:44] <Babs_> here is the menu i am using on ucenter http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/12780589943/
[19:45] <jcoxon> so yes so you'd use B5... ...2A
[19:45] <Babs_> and here is the one off your code http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/12780464345/in/photostream/
[19:45] <Babs_> ahh ok. so nothing particularly looks wrong with what i am doing
[19:45] <jcoxon> nope
[19:45] <Babs_> ok thanks
[19:45] <jcoxon> use ucenter to make hte codes you want
[19:45] <jcoxon> and then just use them
[19:45] <Babs_> just wanted to confirm i wasn't being a moron
[19:45] <jcoxon> no need to generate on hte fly etc
[19:46] <Babs_> thanks
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[19:47] <Babs_> i also couldn't see anywhere where the ublox is polled.
[19:47] <Babs_> in the code
[19:47] <Babs_> does it just punt out the sentences automatically every second or so?
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[19:48] <jcoxon> Babs_, nah you have to poll it
[19:48] <jcoxon> let me find some code
[19:49] <jcoxon> see here
[19:49] <jcoxon> https://github.com/jamescoxon/Eurus/blob/master/2mTracker/Combo_new/Combo_new.ino#L223
[19:49] <jcoxon> so you send it a request for data
[19:49] <jcoxon> 0xB5, 0x62, 0x01, 0x02, 0x00, 0x00, 0x03,
[19:49] <jcoxon> 0x0A
[19:49] <jcoxon> then listen for the reply
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[19:51] <Babs_> ok, i see it there, i couldn't see it in this code http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox6
[19:51] <Babs_> but i see it in yours, which i guess gets to the nub of the solution!
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[20:11] <SP9UOB-Tom> Evening all
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[20:12] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:13] <Upu> evening all
[20:13] <SP9UOB-Tom> evening Anthony
[20:14] <fsphil> evenin'
[20:16] Nick change: wrea_ -> wrea
[20:16] <LeoBodnar> evneing Tom
[20:16] <Lunar_Lander> evening anthony
[20:17] <SP9UOB-Tom> Hi Leo, remember my last balloon? I get it into my flat, and it was constantly loosing lift
[20:17] <SP9UOB-Tom> so - no valve
[20:18] <SP9UOB-Tom> but envelope leak
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[20:22] <LeoBodnar> ah I see, I think I had one like that too
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[20:23] <SP9UOB-Tom> so my kids has released it with small postcard attached :-)
[20:24] <LeoBodnar> not a bad ending for a balloon
[20:25] <Lunar_Lander> yea
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[20:30] <DL7AD> evening
[20:30] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[20:30] <bertrik> evening DL7AD
[20:30] <DL7AD> hi Lunar_Lander and bertrik
[20:31] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL7AD: guten abend :-)
[20:32] <DL7AD> guten abend tom <:)
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> hi DL7AD
[20:32] <DL7AD> hi leo :D
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> good evening bertrik
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[20:35] Action: DL7AD is working on D-3
[20:37] Action: SP9UOB-Tom wünschen viel Glück
[20:37] <SP9UOB-Tom> .. or something ;-)
[20:38] <bertrik> I'd be happy to help track, but I'm afraid it will float east, away from my location
[20:39] <bertrik> maybe I can help in some other way, like reviewing the software
[20:39] <mclane> just finished solderingmy first smd components
[20:40] <SP9UOB-Tom> we need more trackers east of Poland
[20:40] <mclane> (hope they survived it)
[20:40] <Lunar_Lander> hi mclane
[20:40] <mclane> hi Lunar Lander
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[20:45] <SP9UOB-Tom> mclane: passive smd are very immune. Even 6 year old kid with 100 watt soldering iron can make it ;-)
[20:46] <mclane> yea, but it was the ublox
[20:46] <mclane> gps chip
[20:46] <mclane> so not passive (hopefully)
[20:47] <mclane> of course I started with the 0805 resistors
[20:47] <mclane> that was fairly easy
[20:47] <SP9UOB-Tom> mclane: just check for bridges between solderpads
[20:48] <mclane> yea did that (magnifying glass plus multimeter)
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[20:49] <SP9UOB-Tom> really sharp tweezers (like xytronic SS-sa) will be also handy
[20:50] <Babs_> hey upu - thanksa for the email
[20:50] <Upu> welcome did it help ?
[20:50] <Babs_> it did in the sense that it doesn't look like i was doing anything wrong
[20:51] <Babs_> i asked jcoxon too
[20:51] <Babs_> but the hex code out of ucenter as it stands is indeed different from the code
[20:52] <mclane> can I receive gps and glonass with the same chip antenna (the one offered by upu)?
[20:52] <Upu> no
[20:52] <Babs_> yoiu couldn't give me a pointer as to where in http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox6 the gps is actually polled for info could you? i can only see it put in flight mode (and checked) together with the commented sections about turning off GLL etc.
[20:52] <Upu> I can throw you a free Glonass chip antenna in but they are massive*
[20:53] <Upu> *compared to the original
[20:53] <Upu> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/63720513/PDFS/1575AT54A0010-242312.pdf
[20:54] <Upu> there is no code in there to poll it Babs_
[20:54] <mclane> ah that's gonna be for my next design ;-)
[20:54] <Upu> it just outputs data recieved from the GPS to the serial port (under void loop)
[20:54] <SP9UOB-Tom> Upu: 15mm - not so big
[20:54] <Babs_> but the gps doesn't report without polling right?
[20:55] <Babs_> or it just the config section of a wider part of the code?
[20:55] <zyp> isn't the glonass channels right next to the gps channel? why wouldn't the same antenna work for both?
[20:55] <Upu> Babs_ sure it just spurts out NMEA
[20:55] <Upu> unless you run that command I sent you which turns it all off :)
[20:55] <Upu> then yes you need to poll it
[20:56] <Upu> sorry lo
[20:56] <Upu> lol
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[20:56] <Babs_> ahh ok, so its default is to just punt out nmea, and i can either just pull out the stuff i want
[20:56] <Babs_> or else turn it all off and poll it for the stuff that i need?
[20:57] <Upu> correct
[20:57] <Babs_> sorted. thanks upu
[20:57] <Upu> and there are examples of doing that check Joey or Habduino source code
[20:57] <Upu> clue bat : Github
[20:59] <Babs_> ok thanks
[20:59] <Babs_> the check digit stuff is quite clever
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[21:35] <mfa298> cm13g09: only if you're on a bad server
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[21:35] <mfa298> 21:35 [FREENODE] -!- idle : 0 days 1 hours 54 mins 46 secs [signon: Mon Feb 3 10:43:38 2014]
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[21:42] <SP9UOB-Tom> i must launch this: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/80cm-40cm-large-unique-pvc-balloons-e-t-model-movie-props-Inflatable-Toys-for-christmas-birthday/1465699073.html
[21:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> With a couple of LeoBodnar large LED's in them ?
[21:44] <SP9UOB-Tom> Geoff-G8DHE: the truth is out there ;-)
[21:45] <SP9UOB-Tom> Geoff-G8DHE: ;-)
[21:45] <Geoff-G8DHE> The trick will be to make them float at 10m!
[21:46] <LeoBodnar> i-butane passive altitude control system ®
[21:46] <Geoff-G8DHE> :-)
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[21:48] <SP9UOB-Tom> long time ago i used to launch these: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/10PCS-BIG-GIANT-JUMBO-90cm-36-Red-large-Christmas-wedding-party-festival-decorative-latex-balloons-big/1555208657.html
[21:49] <SP9UOB-Tom> unfortunetly only 28 MHz cw beacon, no altitude or GPS
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[21:53] <arko> red wedding balloon?
[21:54] <fsphil> yea, I don't think I'd go to that wedding
[21:55] <arko> i heard the last one didnt go over so well
[21:57] <SP9UOB-Tom> arko: yeah
[21:58] <SP9UOB-Tom> these were (was) filled with home-made hydrogen :-)
[21:59] <Lunar_Lander> hmm
[21:59] <Lunar_Lander> don't know if my GPS track is now good
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[22:04] <SP9UOB-Tom> nice transistor :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSp54qHiS5E
[22:07] <KiwiDean> Geoff-G8DHE: The kiwi flight was me. Yes, indeed it was just a test, my payload software was playing back a CSV file generated using the predictor. It was the first time I've had my payload, receiver, and dl-fldigi working end to end and didn't realise it was going to make it onto the live tracking view. Many apologies if it caused confusion :-)
[22:09] <Geoff-G8DHE> No problem! I had popped in and did have anything specific to do saw the plot and did my usual Object movie job on it
[22:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> Then realised when Phil pointed it out that the timescale was a bit fast !
[22:11] <Geoff-G8DHE> did/didn't
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[22:21] <LeoBodnar> what does FCC say?
[22:30] <SP9UOB-Tom> LeoBodnar: about welding with RF ?
[22:31] <LeoBodnar> yeah, it's a spark gap transmitter alright
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> OK I think I got my GPS right now
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[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> http://gerblook.org/pcb/FrvPXdRMu5CxYYwq3pFfGm
[22:43] <Lunar_Lander> if Upu is still on, is that good?
[22:43] <Upu> yep Luanr
[22:43] <Upu> punch some vias around the feed
[22:43] <Upu> GND
[22:44] <Upu> Whats L1 ?
[22:44] <Upu> for ?
[22:44] <Lunar_Lander> OK
[22:44] <Lunar_Lander> L1 is part of a LC circuit atmel recommends for the AVCC pin
[22:44] <Lunar_Lander> it's a 10µH inductor
[22:45] <Upu> oh ok
[22:45] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:45] <Upu> I need to sort that out my next board
[22:45] <Upu> the ADC readings are very noisy
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[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> ah
[22:46] <Lunar_Lander> http://gerblook.org/pcb/7pcPGKXtHT2w6EwvVnRvsU vias added
[22:47] <Upu> yep
[22:48] <Lunar_Lander> :)
[22:50] <fsphil> there's a lot going on there
[22:51] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[22:52] <Lunar_Lander> but I am glad that it seems to be good now :)
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[22:55] <Lunar_Lander> thank you Upu
[22:57] <LeoBodnar> there was another demo from NXP where they just stuck a big screwdriver into an RF transistor :D
[22:58] <Lunar_Lander> xD
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[23:11] <Lunar_Lander> yeah thanks again everyone
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[00:00] --- Thu Feb 27 2014