highaltitude.log.20140211

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[03:15] <Prometheus> any word about 38-B?
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[03:33] <Prometheus> Anything new today?
[03:37] <Prometheus> I was thinking about the GPS power prob
[03:38] <Prometheus> I had a front-end that recorded the raw GPD telemetry the raw signal
[03:39] <Prometheus> and we post processed that because it eleminated the COCOM limits
[03:39] <Prometheus> Something like the SGP radiosonde
[03:40] <Prometheus> but you could transmit the raw data and process it on the ground like sondemonitor
[03:41] <Prometheus> so only half of the GPS is on the tracker
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[03:48] <Prometheus> http://www.virtualrobotix.com/group/team-prometheus/forum/topics/gps-front-end-radiosonde-modfication-experiment?xg_source=activity
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[04:06] <brainles71> morning gents
[04:06] <brainles71> Darkside: you on?
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[04:11] <Darkside> brainles71: yeah
[04:17] <Prometheus> did we loose B-38?
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[04:30] <brainles71> Darkside what sort of power source did you use for your cutdown? were AA's enough?
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[04:31] <Darkside> i used 2x neergizer lithium AAs
[04:31] <Darkside> Energizer*
[04:31] <brainles71> agh cool
[04:31] <Darkside> howevr
[04:31] <brainles71> oh no
[04:32] <Darkside> well
[04:32] <gurgalof> Prometheus: B-38's battery died
[04:32] <Darkside> i used 2 of them in series, across about 5cm of nichrome
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[04:32] <brainles71> ok cool
[04:32] <Darkside> used a FET to switch it
[04:33] <Darkside> now in my case i was also running my cutdown radio off th same batteries, via a boost converter
[04:33] <brainles71> I'm having a play and ordering some parts off digikey
[04:34] Nick change: kuldeepdhaka_ -> kuldeepdhaka
[04:34] <Darkside> i was using the internal resistance of the batteries to current limit the nichrome
[04:35] <brainles71> ok!
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[04:36] <gurgalof> I should probably finish my pico payload design, but my motivation dropped when I learned that I can't launch it
[04:37] <brainles71> I'm so lost looking at all this electronics stuff but I'm having fun doing it
[04:38] <brainles71> gurgalof: did you have a weight limit set for your pico payload?
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[04:40] <gurgalof> brainles71: I don't know how much it will weigh, but it will be as little as possible for the cheapest as possible, this means a bigger more power hungry GPS, NEO6-M instead of a MAX6 or 7...
[04:42] <brainles71> bit of a trade off then? If you go cheaper you need more power but if you spend more you can make it cheaper?
[04:44] <brainles71> darkside: thanks for that mike
[04:45] <gurgalof> brainles71: yes, and that's because NEO6-M's on ebay are dirt cheap, http://www.ebay.com/itm/2pcs-UBLOX-NEO-6M-GPS-Module-SIRF3-Generations-High-Precision-Positioning-Fast-/291043189866?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43c386a46a
[04:45] <gurgalof> 2pcs for 18USD
[04:46] <Darkside> lol that dscription
[04:46] <brainles71> so your going for a disposable one that you don't mind if it lands in the ocean/national park
[04:46] <Darkside> ublos and sirf3 in the same line
[04:46] <Darkside> ublox*
[04:47] <gurgalof> picos are disposable, atleast the ones Leo and Upu launches :D
[04:48] <brainles71> i know they are supposed to be disposable but they are also useful for reducing payload weight in bigger launches
[04:48] <brainles71> why use 50g when you can do it in 15g
[04:51] <gurgalof> ofcourse
[04:53] <gurgalof> since this will be my first payload I wanted to go for cheap, first I decided to just launch without gps capability, because that would be expensive, then i found those cheap modules...
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[04:55] <brainles71> Whats your total estimated cost for one pico?
[04:55] <Darkside> i did it for about $40
[04:55] <Darkside> AUD
[04:55] <brainles71> shit really?
[04:56] <brainles71> thats pretty cheap
[04:56] <Darkside> of course its going to cost more than $40 to make a single one
[04:56] <Darkside> $40 is the unit BOM, approx
[05:00] <gurgalof> Darkside: you're not using a MAX6/7 then? since those costs almost that themselves
[05:00] <brainles71> yeah of course :) better off getting 4 or 5 boards printed at a time if its regular
[05:01] <Darkside> gurgalof: i think it was less than that
[05:01] <Darkside> im tryin gto find the BOM
[05:02] <Darkside> hrm
[05:02] <Darkside> duno
[05:04] <brainles71> dark side have you ever looked at lithium batteries? surely they would lighten your payload?
[05:05] <brainles71> disregard
[05:07] <Darkside> uh
[05:07] <Darkside> we use energizer lithium AA primaties
[05:07] <Darkside> primaries*
[05:07] <Darkside> they are probably the most energy-dense primary cell available
[05:07] <brainles71> thats why i said disregard :) i realised you can get lithium AA :)
[05:08] <Prometheus> Just a word about energizer batteries
[05:08] <Prometheus> Check the DATE CODE
[05:08] <brainles71> yeah ?
[05:08] <Darkside> a single AA weighs about 12g, and has approx 4.5WHr of capacity in it
[05:08] <brainles71> thats some pretty good advice. i didn't think of that
[05:09] <Darkside> thats enough to run a well-designd payload for days
[05:09] <Prometheus> I've run test and the enigzer lithiums are all over the place power wise
[05:09] <brainles71> how close to the use by date would you dispose of them Prometheus?
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[05:09] <Darkside> they've worked pretty well for us
[05:09] <Darkside> i've always used new ones though
[05:09] <brainles71> Or is it just a matter of them not being expired
[05:10] <Prometheus> It's really hard to say depends on storage tempratures
[05:11] <Prometheus> any battires that are hit by sunlight I would not buy
[05:11] <Prometheus> like at the convience store
[05:11] <gurgalof> isn't the shelflife pretty long on those?
[05:11] <Prometheus> yeah the dat code is so far out there it's useless
[05:11] <brainles71> thats alright ill probably but them from a big supermarket (Woolworth's, Coles) so expiry shouldn't be an issue
[05:11] <Darkside> im sure for a few hour flight it would be fine
[05:11] <Darkside> if you want it to last days then maybe not
[05:12] <brainles71> yeah I'm doing short flights not cross pacific :)
[05:12] <Prometheus> Right shorter flights it's not an issue
[05:12] <Prometheus> but for record type flights I'd find another supplier
[05:12] <Darkside> the problem is there isnt one
[05:13] <Darkside> well
[05:13] <Prometheus> litium ions are the best
[05:13] <Darkside> uhhh
[05:13] <Darkside> they die in cold temps
[05:13] <Darkside> like <-20C
[05:13] <Darkside> same with lipos
[05:13] <Prometheus> It really depends
[05:13] <brainles71> do you put hand warmers in your payloads Darkside? or are they not up for long enough?
[05:13] <Darkside> this is why we use energizer lithiums, they have very littls capacity loss at -50C
[05:14] <Prometheus> on how your patload is made
[05:14] <Darkside> brainles71: my payloads work down to -50 fine
[05:14] <Darkside> Prometheus: uhm
[05:14] <Darkside> a floater that goes through the night will not generate enougn heat to keep itself warm
[05:14] <Darkside> none of the long-running payloads really have enough power consumption to self-heat
[05:14] <gurgalof> I want to try a energizer in liquid nitrogen, just for fun :P
[05:15] <Darkside> and self-heating is a waste of energy
[05:15] <Darkside> better to make the payload be able to handle those temps in the first place
[05:15] <Prometheus> I have a source for satellite battires
[05:15] <Prometheus> I'll give it here
[05:15] <Darkside> also lithium ions are heavy
[05:15] <Darkside> really heavy
[05:15] <Darkside> well, compared to energizer AAs anyway
[05:15] <Prometheus> these are for cubesates on orbit
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[05:16] <Prometheus> about the same weight as AA
[05:16] <Darkside> cubsats dont get that cold iirc
[05:16] <brainles71> whats the difference between normal batteries and satellite batteries Prometheus?
[05:16] <Darkside> as they warm up from the sun and dont really dissipate much heat
[05:17] <Prometheus> they can hybernate to -250
[05:17] <brainles71> well shit
[05:17] <Darkside> sure, hibernate
[05:17] <Darkside> but try drawing lots of current out of them at that point
[05:18] <Prometheus> These are worth twice an enigerzier AA I have test data
[05:18] <gurgalof> give me one and I'll put it in liquid nitrogen, thats only -196C
[05:18] <Prometheus> let me present
[05:18] <Prometheus> of course they cost 5 times the price
[05:19] <Prometheus> but worth it for super long flights
[05:19] <Prometheus> wait one
[05:20] <gurgalof> awh, the micro I want to use is still not in stock :(
[05:20] <gurgalof> http://se.mouser.com/ProductDetail/STMicroelectronics/STM32L100C6U6/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMvh0aGzCjJ9pgMwXB%252bPKguK
[05:20] <Prometheus> GS Yuasa is manufactuer
[05:20] <gurgalof> they just keep pushing the delivery date forward
[05:24] <Prometheus> The biggest problem with the Energizers are you NEVER know what your going to get performace wise they are all over the map
[05:25] <Prometheus> I will write up a report for you
[05:25] <Prometheus> Too much data to present here
[05:26] <Prometheus> Sure they can mork but they are not dependiable from a scientific stand point
[05:27] <Prometheus> of course they cost not much so you roll the dice for price if you want too
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[05:29] <gurgalof> "roll the dice for price" I like the sound of that :)
[05:29] <Prometheus> It's not really a factoe unless it's a really important flight
[05:30] <Prometheus> there are other options and I'll give a few in report
[05:32] <Prometheus> We have a 20 gram satelite
[05:33] <Prometheus> only transmitts callsign and temp
[05:34] <gurgalof> just because you wrote that I want to try build an even lighter satellite :D
[05:34] <gurgalof> maybe some day...
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[05:41] <brainles71> Prometheus: how much are satellite batteries?
[05:42] <Prometheus> I'll have to update that price data the project is now about 5 years old
[05:42] <brainles71> what was it five years ago?
[05:42] <Prometheus> one battery was about $24 USD
[05:42] <brainles71> thats not too bad
[05:42] <Prometheus> Yeah for a critical mission wort it
[05:43] <gurgalof> how much capacity?
[05:43] <brainles71> when you were talking expensive i was thinking $100 >
[05:43] <Prometheus> Same as AA
[05:43] <Prometheus> These battires are shorter and fatter
[05:43] <Prometheus> I'm trying to locate photo right now
[05:44] <Prometheus> They are pink lol
[05:44] <Prometheus> and purple
[05:45] <brainles71> oooh pretty
[05:45] <brainles71> haha :)
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[05:48] <Prometheus> Ahhh they are 3.7 volt!
[05:49] <Prometheus> a little shorter and fatter than an AA
[05:49] <gurgalof> picture!
[05:49] <Prometheus> but same cap as 2 energiver AA
[05:59] <Prometheus> Ok I have a photo now where to put it so you guy's can see it
[05:59] <gurgalof> imgur is quite popular
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[06:01] <Prometheus> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152219180911224&set=a.216717276223.170913.213171526223&type=1&theater
[06:01] <Prometheus> is that ok?
[06:01] <gurgalof> it works
[06:01] <Prometheus> 12.81 grams without the thermal distrubution shield
[06:02] <Prometheus> I'll have to look at imgur thanks
[06:03] <gurgalof> I don't really know what people use for hosting images, I just use my own server...
[06:03] <gurgalof> h
[06:04] <gurgalof> oops, dropped something on my keyboard...
[06:05] <Prometheus> http://www.tadiranbat.com/ was the manufactuer of this battery
[06:06] <Prometheus> There are better alturnitives to the ensrgizer I'll provide some had data for you
[06:06] <Prometheus> hard data
[06:06] <Prometheus> sorry keyboard issues here too lol
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[06:08] <Prometheus> we had to do a LOT of battery reseaarch
[06:11] <Prometheus> I have to credit Roger Harkiss (forget callsign) for the research
[06:11] <Prometheus> and the design of this satellite
[06:12] <gurgalof> do you know which chemistry the battery is?
[06:26] <Prometheus> Liquid cathode. For low temperature applications. Can operate down to 55 °C, where it retains over 50% of its rated capacity. Negligible amount of gas generated in nominal use, limited amount under abuse. Has relatively high internal impedance and limited short-circuit current. High energy density, about 500 Wh/kg. Toxic. Electrolyte reacts with water. Low-current cells used for portable electronics and memory backup.
[06:27] <Prometheus> Lithium Thionyl Chloride
[06:28] <Darkside> those are a pain to get
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[06:28] <Darkside> and arent they primary cells?
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[06:29] <Prometheus> In our test 1/2 the size and lasted twice as long
[06:29] <Darkside> i looked into some batteries by Saft early on, but they didnt have as high a continuous current
[06:29] <Prometheus> but it depends on draw our little sat was low draw
[06:29] <Darkside> like, they couldn't power our radios
[06:30] <Darkside> it was like 25mA peak current or something
[06:30] <Darkside> but yes, they are the most energy dense batteries i've seen
[06:30] <Prometheus> 120ma peak
[06:31] <Darkside> its just the low current draw and the hazmat stuff associated with it that i dont like
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[06:31] <Prometheus> 60ma cont
[06:31] <Prometheus> Mouser stocks them
[06:32] <Prometheus> Just saying you might wanna take a look here :)
[06:32] <Prometheus> depends on what you need
[06:32] <Darkside> well its more the risk of dropping a hazmat substance in some random location
[06:33] <Prometheus> lol your kidding roght
[06:33] <Darkside> uh
[06:33] <Darkside> not really
[06:34] <Prometheus> Ok well sure it's up to you
[06:34] <Darkside> admittedly dropping the lithium primaries is just as bad
[06:34] <Darkside> well, almsot
[06:34] <Prometheus> right my point
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[06:35] <Prometheus> I'm saying special project here ya know
[06:35] <adwiens_KC0WYS> thyonyl chloride is worse
[06:35] <adwiens_KC0WYS> than other lithium chemistries
[06:35] <Prometheus> indeed
[06:35] <adwiens_KC0WYS> in terms of safety
[06:35] <adwiens_KC0WYS> so its not just as bad
[06:35] <Prometheus> correct
[06:35] Nick change: BitEvil -> SpeedEvil
[06:35] <adwiens_KC0WYS> alright
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[06:37] <Prometheus> Anyone interested in the half GPS idea?
[06:37] <adwiens_KC0WYS> whats the half gps idea?
[06:37] <Prometheus> Works the same as the SGP radiosonde
[06:37] <SpeedEvil> Prometheus: Go to your GP?
[06:38] <Prometheus> front-end on tracker processing on ground
[06:38] <adwiens_KC0WYS> and whats the sgp radiosone?
[06:38] <adwiens_KC0WYS> oh
[06:39] <adwiens_KC0WYS> interesting
[06:39] <Prometheus> Darkside did a good write up on it
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[06:39] <adwiens_KC0WYS> link?
[06:39] <Darkside> http://rfhead.net/?p=56
[06:40] <Prometheus> You can actually cut the fron-end from one of these and reuse it
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[06:40] <Prometheus> in the photo the front-end has the large ground plane around it
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[06:41] <adwiens_KC0WYS> does processing on the ground save that much power?
[06:41] <Prometheus> I have cut them out and used them as a preamp stage for regular GPS module
[06:42] <Prometheus> Actually it really does
[06:43] <Prometheus> Your looking at an all out effort in this case to save power and use the special battires
[06:43] <adwiens_KC0WYS> ya definitely
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[06:44] <adwiens_KC0WYS> i looked into thionyl chloride briefly when i did some battery tests http://adwiens.com/projects/balloons/batt/index.html
[06:44] <Prometheus> once done though everyone can do it
[06:44] <adwiens_KC0WYS> i have one on my desk but i havent actually tested it yet
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[06:44] <adwiens_KC0WYS> the datasheets suggest low current and poor low temperature performance so i kind of wrote them off
[06:45] <adwiens_KC0WYS> but if your payload doesnt get below -20c and you have low current draw they might be perfect
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[06:47] <Prometheus> was that with an old battery?
[06:47] <Prometheus> nice work by the way I love to see good work like that
[06:47] <adwiens_KC0WYS> thanks
[06:47] <gurgalof> I have a couple of SAFT lithiums laying around, they can't deliver much current...
[06:48] <adwiens_KC0WYS> Prometheus: which?
[06:48] <Prometheus> Consider they are not the Tadrian's we tested
[06:48] <adwiens_KC0WYS> I haven't tested the thionyl chloride yet
[06:49] <Prometheus> right
[06:49] <Prometheus> the Saft you tested was of unknown age correct?
[06:49] <adwiens_KC0WYS> the saft one in my tests is actually lithium sulfur dioxide which is different and it was pretty old, mfg in 2005
[06:49] <adwiens_KC0WYS> known, 2005
[06:50] <Prometheus> Ahhh very good
[06:50] <Prometheus> thank you for clairification
[06:50] <adwiens_KC0WYS> saft actualy makes a whole range of different chemistries but their most popular/well known for thionyl chloride
[06:50] <adwiens_KC0WYS> they're*
[06:51] <gurgalof> is it just me that want to test batteries in liquid nitrogen?
[06:51] <Prometheus> Could you run your test on a Tadrian
[06:51] Nick change: Upu_M0UPU -> Upu
[06:52] <Prometheus> would save me digging up 5 year old data! :)
[06:52] <adwiens_KC0WYS> the one i have is made by OmniCel
[06:52] <adwiens_KC0WYS> it's a 1/2 AA
[06:52] <Prometheus> that might be conclusive enough
[06:54] <Prometheus> What is the nonimal current dran on the current tracker designs
[06:54] <adwiens_KC0WYS> few tens of mA up to around 100mA
[06:54] <adwiens_KC0WYS> for the pico trackers
[06:54] <adwiens_KC0WYS> peak
[06:54] <Prometheus> ok that is is in the range then
[06:54] <adwiens_KC0WYS> for thionyl?
[06:55] <Prometheus> yep
[06:55] <adwiens_KC0WYS> no, they need on the order of 1 mA max, and even then they have decreased capacity
[06:55] <Prometheus> 120ma peak 60ma nominal
[06:56] <adwiens_KC0WYS> yea but if you look at the charts that's for way less than 50% capacity
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[06:56] <adwiens_KC0WYS> at that point you might as well fly an energizer lithium
[06:56] <Prometheus> 3.6v full size AA
[06:57] <Prometheus> twice the voltage same size package
[06:57] <adwiens_KC0WYS> one i'm looking at right now, full size AA thionyl, the 60mA rating is for 50% of nominal cap
[06:57] <adwiens_KC0WYS> so basically your energy density is half
[06:57] <adwiens_KC0WYS> which wipes out any reason to use thionyl in the first place
[06:57] <SpeedEvil> Add a tiny supercap
[06:57] <SpeedEvil> In principle - anyway.
[06:57] <adwiens_KC0WYS> idk i really want thionyl to work too but i went thru this a few weeks ago and couldn't see how to do it
[06:58] <Prometheus> We have done it
[06:58] <Prometheus> The satellite was tested
[06:58] <Upu> morning
[06:58] <adwiens_KC0WYS> by "do it" i mean "do it with better results than an energizer
[06:58] <Prometheus> I guess I have to dig up the data for you
[06:58] <adwiens_KC0WYS> lol
[06:59] <Prometheus> yes by 2 times for 1/2 the weight
[06:59] <Prometheus> and 5 times the price by the way
[06:59] <adwiens_KC0WYS> gurgalof: i do want to test some in colder temps, i think liquid nitrogen is too cold though, dry ice would be better
[06:59] <Prometheus> but yeah
[07:00] <adwiens_KC0WYS> ya they are quite expensive
[07:00] <Prometheus> yeah LN2 is too cold
[07:00] <Prometheus> -55C
[07:00] <Prometheus> max
[07:01] <SpeedEvil> adwiens_KC0WYS: Domestic freezers can go surprisingly low.
[07:01] <SpeedEvil> adwiens_KC0WYS: Mine will hit -50C if I leave it for a week on 'boost'.
[07:01] <Prometheus> the core is liguid in these batteries
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[07:01] <adwiens_KC0WYS> that's a thought
[07:01] <SpeedEvil> http://ao.com/product/RCNAA300P-Hotpoint-Chest-Freezer-White-26018.aspx?WT.z_PT=MDA&WT.z_MT=Search&WT.z_RTM=PLA&WT.z_DT=c&WT.z_APT=chest%20freezers&WT.z_BR=Hotpoint&WT.z_FT=Free%20Standing&WT.z_PC=RCNAA300P_WH&WT.mc_id=1&gclid=CO3J49Tn7rsCFc3KtAodex4ApQ
[07:02] <Prometheus> Wow is that a frezzer add?
[07:02] <SpeedEvil> I don't know if many will do this - but clearly if they are nominally at -18C - and the motor is going on 1/3 of the time typically - if you turn it on all the time, it'll go somewhat lower
[07:02] <Prometheus> Ok thanks I get it now
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[07:03] <Prometheus> A handy device for testing would be a cryocoller
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[07:03] <Prometheus> cryocooler
[07:03] <SpeedEvil> The above freezer is likely to be cheaper
[07:03] <SpeedEvil> And use less power.
[07:03] <adwiens_KC0WYS> I will have to figure out where the control knob is on my crappy apartment freezer
[07:03] <adwiens_KC0WYS> lol
[07:04] <Prometheus> true by far but you can luck out and find one surpluse in old microwave equipment
[07:04] <SpeedEvil> Alternative is something like a 'beer fridge' type peltier thingy inside a fridge operating at -18C
[07:04] <Prometheus> Or if your a machinist you can make one
[07:05] <Prometheus> it's a striling engine in reverse
[07:06] <SpeedEvil> No, it's not.
[07:06] <gurgalof> adwiens_KC0WYS: yeah dry ice would be better, -78C
[07:06] <gurgalof> liquid nitrogen just for fun :)
[07:06] <adwiens_KC0WYS> haha
[07:06] <Prometheus> yes if you power a stirling engin it will cool
[07:07] Action: SpeedEvil finds the lack of dry ice in the UK annoying
[07:07] <gurgalof> I think dry ice is about 50SEK/kg here
[07:07] <Prometheus> the cryocoller is a free piston stirling
[07:07] <adwiens_KC0WYS> my roommate when I was testing: "umm.. why is there a usb cable coming out of the freezer?"
[07:07] <Prometheus> lol
[07:08] <gurgalof> SpeedEvil: so you can launch picos however you wish, but can't get dry ice?
[07:08] <adwiens_KC0WYS> sometimes ice cream shops will have dry ice
[07:09] <adwiens_KC0WYS> thats where we always got it
[07:09] <Prometheus> dry ice is too cold too
[07:09] <adwiens_KC0WYS> well you dont have to put it right on it
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[07:09] <Prometheus> by twice
[07:09] <adwiens_KC0WYS> there will be a temperature gradient in the container you put it in
[07:09] <Prometheus> lol yeah your right
[07:09] <Prometheus> guess work though
[07:10] <Prometheus> Ok sorry I'm nuking things for you
[07:10] <gurgalof> some picos report -60C in the night, -78C is not too far off
[07:10] <Prometheus> I'll revert back to regulay geek now
[07:10] <Prometheus> regular
[07:10] <adwiens_KC0WYS> gurgalof: usually the ones without any insulation
[07:11] Action: adwiens_KC0WYS doesn't want to have to set up the battery tester again
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[07:12] <Prometheus> you can mix dry ice and methonal and control the liquid better
[07:12] <Prometheus> I have a thermo vacuum chamber
[07:12] <adwiens_KC0WYS> oh nice
[07:12] <Prometheus> for testing I shoud redo some test
[07:13] <Prometheus> and shut up
[07:13] <Prometheus> lol
[07:13] <Prometheus> sorry guys
[07:13] <adwiens_KC0WYS> ?
[07:13] <Prometheus> just trying to help
[07:13] <adwiens_KC0WYS> no offence taken
[07:14] <Prometheus> ty
[07:14] <adwiens_KC0WYS> i was just complaining aimlessly :P
[07:14] <adwiens_KC0WYS> i'm curious to try the thionyl
[07:14] <Prometheus> I need to present data rather than talk so much
[07:15] <Prometheus> that means I need to dig out the old data or present new data
[07:15] <adwiens_KC0WYS> what kinds of tests did you do in the past
[07:15] <Prometheus> When we tested battires for the sattelite we tested like 30 battires
[07:16] <Prometheus> it was exhaustine
[07:16] <Prometheus> exhaustive
[07:16] <adwiens_KC0WYS> cubesat?
[07:16] <Prometheus> but it is now 5 year old data
[07:16] <adwiens_KC0WYS> a lot of these battery chemistries haven't changed in decades
[07:16] <Prometheus> yeah for cubsates as well but the data was really mostly for a pico sat
[07:17] <adwiens_KC0WYS> oh cool
[07:17] <gurgalof> did the satellite been sent to space?
[07:17] <Prometheus> mmuch like your trackers
[07:17] <gurgalof> or was it just research?
[07:17] <Prometheus> no, I still have the satellite if it ever get's a ride :)
[07:18] <gurgalof> :)
[07:18] <Prometheus> we did test it thorugly
[07:18] <Prometheus> it really depends on the current nomialy and peak
[07:19] <Prometheus> I'm pretty sure your tracker fall in the range for these battires
[07:19] <Prometheus> I have to reassess the dat
[07:20] <Prometheus> It's really not importat though unless your going for some record
[07:21] <Prometheus> I think a combination of GPS processing on the ground and these batts are the ultimate duration device
[07:21] <adwiens_KC0WYS> i mean it's just a numbers thing right, 3.6V * 2500mAh * 0.5 capacity at 60mA = 4500 mWh *at room temperature*, which is about 500-600 mWh more than an energizer L91 which weighs 2g less and works extremely well at both low temperature and high current
[07:21] <Prometheus> I'l better present the data for you
[07:21] <adwiens_KC0WYS> in the best case you have a capacity roughly equal to an energizer, which is already cheaper and easier to get, and in the worst case it doesnt even work as well as the energizer
[07:21] <adwiens_KC0WYS> fair enough
[07:22] <Prometheus> from hard test data
[07:22] <Prometheus> I don't want to waste your time
[07:22] <adwiens_KC0WYS> lol no worries
[07:22] <gurgalof> but it's still interesting even if I won't need anything else than energizers for now
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[07:23] <adwiens_KC0WYS> its just too bad they don't make lithium iron disulfide batteries smaller than AAA :(
[07:23] <Prometheus> all information is good! :)
[07:23] <adwiens_KC0WYS> (thats the energizer chemistry)
[07:23] <Prometheus> but it does need hard evidance I realize that
[07:23] <gurgalof> <3 information
[07:26] SM5OCI (51d832c4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.216.50.196) joined #highaltitude.
[07:26] <SM5OCI> Good Morning everyone!
[07:27] <Prometheus> GM!
[07:27] <adwiens_KC0WYS> morning!
[07:27] <gurgalof> godmorgon :)
[07:28] <SM5OCI> Living in southern Sweden, I see on the tracker that B-38 is was closing in yesterday evening. Nothing seems to be heard since about 18UT yesterda. Is it positively lost?
[07:28] <SM5OCI> I believe it was 434.400MHz, was it?
[07:28] <Prometheus> Word is battery died
[07:29] <Prometheus> hence the battery conversation :)
[07:29] <SM5OCI> Ahm, I have missed everything before just minutes ago.
[07:29] <gurgalof> last voltage reported on aprs was 0.84V
[07:29] <SM5OCI> Using the Web interface from the tracker note board in the upper left corner.
[07:30] <Prometheus> yeah see I don't know what nominal voltage is in this case
[07:30] <gurgalof> SM5OCI: I tried to listen yesterday from Gothenburg, but I just heard noise
[07:30] <x-f> SM5OCI, 434.500 or a little lower, its battery froze, might come back after sunrise
[07:30] <Prometheus> admitadly
[07:30] <gurgalof> but I just connected a dipole to a rtl-sdr
[07:30] <SM5OCI> I am not used to IRC and do not know if I can replay old conversation. I used IRC a little in 1989 [sic!], but have forgotten most of it
[07:31] <Prometheus> Yeah me too and I don't know?
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[07:31] <x-f> http://habhub.org/zeusbot/
[07:31] <Prometheus> far as I know it's lost forever in the either
[07:31] <Prometheus> lol
[07:31] <adwiens_KC0WYS> alright i'm going to test this thionyl at 32 mA like the coin cells
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[07:32] <SM5OCI> How much lower than 434.500?
[07:32] <brainles71> SM5OCI: zuesbot is the best bet. It updates on the fly. I use it because my mobile internet drops out when I'm at work
[07:32] <x-f> 5kHz maybe
[07:32] <SM5OCI> ANd how does it sound? USB, isn't it?
[07:33] <SM5OCI> ok
[07:33] <Prometheus> copy that adwiens_KC0WYS
[07:34] <SM5OCI> I have some terrible interference on 434.500, sorry.
[07:34] <x-f> USB, yes, it should be beeping for a few minutes, then two telemetry lines in Contestia 8/1000
[07:34] <Prometheus> What? Data from B-38?
[07:35] <x-f> yea
[07:35] <Prometheus> awesome!
[07:35] <SM5OCI> Again, how do I recognize it? I recon it is silent most of the time, and then busts of, was it contestia?
[07:36] <x-f> it should be beeping
[07:36] <SM5OCI> Not beeping continously? HOw long beeps, and how long between beeps?
[07:36] <gurgalof> thats if it will wake up when the sun warms it up
[07:37] <adwiens_KC0WYS> SM50CI: how many baud was your modem in '89? :P
[07:37] <Prometheus> 14.4 if I remembe correctly
[07:38] <Prometheus> lol
[07:38] <SM5OCI> Yes, gurgalof, I realize that the chance of me hearing it is very low, but I would anyway want to know what it sounds like when/if I ever hear it.
[07:38] <Prometheus> Last of the BBS days
[07:38] <Prometheus> I have a wav file of B-38
[07:39] <adwiens_KC0WYS> alright test in progress, will see how it did in the morning
[07:39] <gurgalof> SM5OCI: ofcource, I spent more time than I should have yesterday trying to hear it
[07:39] <Prometheus> if you want it
[07:41] <gurgalof> I should have used my ft-857d instead of a cheap sdr, but I was too lazy for that
[07:41] <SM5OCI> In my closet I have RTL stick. I have an old computer. I can install Linux. All I need is a wideband preamp (maybe one of those MMIC wideband sold by an Aussie), and a simple antenna.........
[07:41] <Prometheus> courtesy of LA3EQ
[07:42] <SM5OCI> Promethus: Yes, please.
[07:43] <Prometheus> need email
[07:43] <Prometheus> or I can give you mine
[07:43] <Prometheus> monroe@teamprometheus.org
[07:43] <SM5OCI> <my callsign> (at) elmdahl dot com.
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[07:43] <Prometheus> roger
[07:47] <Prometheus> sent
[07:48] <Prometheus> you recieve?
[07:48] <SM5OCI> C
[07:49] <Prometheus> roger that
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[07:50] <SM5OCI> Ah!
[07:50] <Prometheus> :)
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[07:51] <SM5OCI> So, what I should be listening at is a short beep every, like, three seconds. And then Contestia warbles every so often?
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[07:52] <Prometheus> I don't know the transmit rate but roger on the rest of that
[07:52] <SM5OCI> Fine!
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[07:54] <Prometheus> 8/1000
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[07:55] <Prometheus> I also want a proper wideband preamp for my dongle
[07:55] <Prometheus> any suggestions?
[07:56] <Prometheus> that sounds rather funny lol
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[07:58] <x-f> for 70cm band i can recomment Upu's/Darkside's HABamp - http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=72_73
[07:58] <x-f> recommend*
[07:59] <UpuWork> I can remove the SAW and so a wide band version
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[07:59] <UpuWork> but I'd recommend you pick one with a SAW on it
[08:03] <Prometheus> Ahh roger that thanks
[08:04] Nick change: reb-www -> WWW-SM3ULC
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[08:52] <brainles71> what circumstances would a pre amp be required?
[08:52] <fsphil> if the receiver was fairly insensitive
[08:52] <brainles71> is it mainly for usb dongles only?
[08:52] <brainles71> ahh ok
[08:52] <brainles71> so if your using a proper radio receiver you should be fine
[08:53] <fsphil> or for long cable runs
[08:54] <fsphil> coax can be quite lossy, so giving the signal a boost near the antenna can help overcome that
[08:54] <fsphil> lossy at higher frequencies*
[08:54] <brainles71> what do you define as a long cable run?
[08:54] <brainles71> 10m?
[08:54] <fsphil> depends on the coax too
[08:55] <brainles71> so i should use gold coated monster cables with mystical enchantment bonus + 3
[08:55] <fsphil> http://highfields-arc.co.uk/constructors/olcalcs/coaxlosscalc.htm
[08:55] <brainles71> ?
[08:56] <fsphil> at 434mhz 10 metres of rg58 would lose you more than half the signal
[08:56] <brainles71> ahh ok
[08:56] <fsphil> better (more expensive) coax wouldn't be as bad
[08:56] <fsphil> but a preamp at the antenna side would probably be cheaper
[08:57] <brainles71> yeah i figured at much
[08:58] <brainles71> loving that ling fsphil! ill have to add that to my bookmarks
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[09:01] <SM5OCI> Ok, back again (from work).
[09:01] <brainles71> welcome
[09:02] <SM5OCI> There was some interference in my home when I tried to listen to B-38 this morning, so I brought a radio on my way to work.
[09:02] <SM5OCI> ) listened at a quiet spot, on 434.500 and 5kHz below, about one hour ago.
[09:02] <SM5OCI> I heard nil.
[09:02] <SM5OCI> Will listen again at about 14:30UT.
[09:03] <brainles71> didn't someone say a few hours ago that the battery was dead
[09:03] <brainles71> i could be wrong
[09:04] <SM5OCI> Possibly, but did not listen in on the channel before, like, 1.5 hours ago.
[09:04] <SM5OCI> No solar cell?
[09:04] <brainles71> not sure
[09:04] <brainles71> i wasn't following it
[09:04] <brainles71> i just happened to be on
[09:04] <SM5OCI> Some of the B-XXs have been working for days, no?
[09:04] <brainles71> [04:32] <gurgalof> Prometheus: B-38's battery died
[09:05] <SM5OCI> ok.
[09:05] <brainles71> that was 4 hours ago
[09:05] <brainles71> sorry :?
[09:05] <gurgalof> last packet is from 2014-02-10 18:59:57
[09:05] <gurgalof> that was a long time ago
[09:06] <SM5OCI> Let's hope for another balloon over southern Sweden, then. I will register to the alert mailing list I heard about a couple of weeks ago.
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[09:07] <SM5OCI> Now back to the salt mines...
[09:07] <gurgalof> I always hope for balloons to reach Sweden
[09:08] <SM5OCI> Are you the guy who alerts the Swedish ham community on HABs?
[09:09] <gurgalof> nope, not me
[09:09] <SM5OCI> Ok. have you seen it on ham.se?
[09:09] <gurgalof> nope
[09:09] <SM5OCI> You are free to have a look.
[09:10] <SM5OCI> Ok, REALLY back to the salt mines. Bye.
[09:10] <gurgalof> I hang around here all day
[09:10] <gurgalof> every day
[09:11] <brainles71> gurgalof: its become a bit of an addiction for me
[09:12] <gurgalof> it's addictive
[09:12] <brainles71> Darkside: have you given any thought to combining your cutdown and tracking payload or is that too much effort for too little?
[09:12] <brainles71> gurgalof: i learn so much here
[09:12] <brainles71> and the rest of the time its just fun to shoot shit
[09:14] <fsphil> ozzy expression?
[09:14] <brainles71> yup
[09:15] <brainles71> talk about anything without any particular point in mind
[09:17] <fsphil> phew
[09:18] <brainles71> why? afraid I'm going to get all trigger happy up in here?
[09:18] <brainles71> the only trigger happy I'm getting is with online purchasing
[09:18] <brainles71> receiver on ebay BAM
[09:19] <brainles71> small components for PCB BAM
[09:22] <brainles71> got any launches coming up fsphil?
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[09:30] <Darkside> brainles71: we keep them separate intentionally
[09:31] <brainles71> so that they are independent and not reliant on each other?
[09:31] <fsphil> soon as there's a weekend with decent predictions I'll be launching a small pico payload
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[09:33] <gurgalof> brainles71: ebay is dangerous
[09:34] <brainles71> gurgalof: i have a mini fridge full of analogue film because of ebay
[09:34] <brainles71> gotta get some developed actually
[09:36] <gurgalof> I hade a time when I got a package everyday in over a week
[09:36] <gurgalof> all registred so had to collect them at the postoffice which is a supermarket
[09:36] <brainles71> yeah same here
[09:37] <brainles71> got told off by my family to stop buying things off ebay
[09:37] <brainles71> they just don't understand
[09:37] <gurgalof> same cashier girl everytime, she started to ask why I got so much stuff from china :D
[09:37] Action: SpeedEvil is pondering buying an orchard from ebay
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[09:38] <gonzo_> really shooting shit is fun. Spent a good afternoon giving a ford fiesta the 12bore treatment a while ago
[09:38] <SpeedEvil> This is on-topic as I'm sort-of-pondering working on a quadcopter for harvesting
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[09:39] <brainles71> harvesting what SpeedEvil?
[09:39] <SpeedEvil> Apples.
[09:39] <gonzo_> dave's tree bound HABs?
[09:39] <brainles71> manually harvesting them individually?
[09:39] <SpeedEvil> Take full-sized trees and then plant them in random locations around the area.
[09:40] <SpeedEvil> As they grow, trim out the branches to form a somewhat horizontal canopy.
[09:40] <SpeedEvil> Pick from the top.
[09:41] <gonzo_> but the apples will tend to hang down?
[09:41] <brainles71> interesting
[09:41] <brainles71> then it becomes a never ending claw came gonzo_
[09:41] <brainles71> *game
[09:42] <gonzo_> set them in rows, with the canpoy over a roadway, then get a scaf tower on wheels
[09:43] <gonzo_> or use the quad to puck them from the underside, no need to slice them !
[09:44] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: yeah - the point is to do it on land you don't have official permission to use.
[09:45] <Prometheus> gonzo a ford fiesta?
[09:46] <brainles71> and one of these http://d2t1xqejof9utc.cloudfront.net/screenshots/pics/7f2cbf803f5a138168945d42a3a9c09d/medium.JPG
[09:46] <Prometheus> is 12bore like 12gauge?
[09:46] <Prometheus> :)
[09:47] <SpeedEvil> brainles71: I've been wondering about a 'work' quad.
[09:47] <Prometheus> I had a festiva loved it!
[09:47] <brainles71> a 'work' quad?
[09:47] <SpeedEvil> brainles71: A light space-frame with the pods at 100N
[09:47] <SpeedEvil> err
[09:48] <SpeedEvil> brainles71: A normal quad, but with the props unusually spaced out - for better torque
[09:48] <brainles71> interesting!
[09:48] <SpeedEvil> If you actually want to lift and move something sideways - say
[09:49] <brainles71> Prometheus: i have a VW Jetta and I'm currently looking at mounting an antenna on it
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[09:49] <brainles71> I'm not sure where or if I'm keen on drilling into my car :|
[09:50] <Prometheus> is it a gasoline engine?
[09:50] <brainles71> diesel
[09:50] <Prometheus> converted to grease?
[09:50] <brainles71> i can get up to 4.1L/100km
[09:51] <ottokleiber> good morning
[09:51] <brainles71> no just straight up diesel
[09:51] <brainles71> morning ottokleiber
[09:51] <Prometheus> yeah I love diesel
[09:52] <brainles71> great mileage!
[09:52] <Prometheus> longivity too
[09:53] <Prometheus> what kind of antenna?
[09:53] <brainles71> i always recommend people get a diesel and tell them my mileage& normally their jaw hits the ground when they realise that their small car gets them a minimum of 8L/100km highway driving
[09:53] <brainles71> no sure at this stage
[09:53] <brainles71> probably a 70cm
[09:53] <Prometheus> my festeva got 52 mpg on a good day
[09:54] <Prometheus> ok sibot 52 miles
[09:54] <Prometheus> nope
[09:54] <Prometheus> lol
[09:54] <fsphil> diesel isn't so good for short journies
[09:54] <brainles71> thats pretty good
[09:54] <fsphil> well, that spelled correctly
[09:54] <Prometheus> I ran the crap out of that car too delivering newspaper
[09:54] <fsphil> journeys
[09:55] <brainles71> i can get 7L/100 driving around the city
[09:55] <brainles71> i normally get about 600km out of a tank with urban driving
[09:55] <Prometheus> yeah you need to heat the oil above boiling point of water
[09:55] <gonzo_> yep, ford fiesta car and a shotgun
[09:55] <fsphil> is this for then the zombie invasion begins?
[09:56] <brainles71> Prometheus: how many KM did you put on it ?
[09:56] <Prometheus> yeah the fiesta was a feasco
[09:56] <gonzo_> we do need a revers sibot for this
[09:56] <Prometheus> I sold it at 130,000 miles
[09:56] <Prometheus> yeah sorry
[09:57] <fsphil> 130000 is a lot in either miles or km
[09:57] <brainles71> i got my car at about 25k and I'm almost at 90k
[09:57] <Prometheus> all I ever did to it was brakes and wheel bearings- tires
[09:58] <Prometheus> I even pulled a 1980 Cheve dually truck with it one time for about 20 miles
[09:59] <gonzo_> there is not much you can do to service madern engines. Just keep feeding them fresh oil
[09:59] <Prometheus> the truck had a 454 in it
[09:59] <brainles71> yeah i gotta get a big service done soon filters and all
[09:59] <Prometheus> yeah I did change the oil reg
[09:59] <gonzo_> I do an oil change every 6mths
[09:59] <brainles71> I'm still under warranty so i take mine to VW when needed
[09:59] <Prometheus> good enough
[10:00] <brainles71> costs a pretty penny
[10:00] <Prometheus> Oh man nice car then pretty new
[10:00] <brainles71> once the warranty is done ill take it to the local guy and get him to do it
[10:00] <gonzo_> never owned anythuing that was less than a decade old when I got it
[10:00] <Prometheus> I ride a 750 Nighthawk most of the time
[10:01] <brainles71> yeah it was built early 2009
[10:01] <Prometheus> nice
[10:01] <brainles71> yup :)
[10:01] <Prometheus> what color is it blue?
[10:01] <brainles71> platinum grey
[10:02] <Prometheus> ahh yeah nice color looks clean most of the time :)
[10:02] <brainles71> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/84/VW_Jetta_VI_1.2_TSI_Comfortline_Platinumgrey_Heck.JPG
[10:02] <brainles71> like that
[10:02] <brainles71> thats a newer model
[10:02] <brainles71> but the colour is the same
[10:02] <Prometheus> sweet
[10:03] <brainles71> yeah :)
[10:03] <Prometheus> where does the antenna mount?
[10:03] <brainles71> thats the problem :)
[10:03] <gonzo_> trade it for a transporter, that would be abetter HAB car !
[10:04] <Prometheus> is it a wip antenna?
[10:04] <gonzo_> mag mount
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[10:06] <Prometheus> Yeah that or make a mount that rolls up with the back window
[10:07] <Prometheus> like the old drve-in movie speakers did
[10:08] <gonzo_> have seen those in the past, a clip that goes over a window glass.
[10:08] <gonzo_> Or a boot mount clip, that clamps to the top edge of the tailgate
[10:08] <Prometheus> only good for temp though the windows stays slightly open
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[10:08] <gonzo_> depending what you are putting on, a magmount is probably a good option
[10:09] <Prometheus> yeah agreed
[10:09] <brainles71_> why am i on twice?
[10:09] <brainles71_> hmmm
[10:09] <gonzo_> these glass clips used to wind up into the seals
[10:09] <gonzo_> assuming the seals are niot too tight
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[10:09] <gonzo_> your alter ego will drop off soon
[10:09] <Prometheus> VW has super tight seals
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[10:10] Nick change: brainles71_ -> brainles71
[10:11] <gonzo_> With an older car you don't have to worry, just go at it with a step cutter
[10:12] <daveake> :)
[10:14] <ottokleiber> i don't have a car
[10:14] <ottokleiber> but i do have a kaffee
[10:14] <ottokleiber> coffee
[10:14] <gonzo_> my other car is fibreglass, so no need to mount antennas at all
[10:14] <ottokleiber> it take me places
[10:15] <daveake> I sold my fibreglass car
[10:15] <gonzo_> the satnav locks super quick!
[10:15] <brainles71> apparently you can get boot mounts
[10:15] <gonzo_> you would not have been using radio in that though dave
[10:15] <daveake> Yeah Steve (rocketboy) was saying that the rear roof section in his Freelander is fibreglass
[10:15] <daveake> true, no room for much chase kit
[10:16] <ottokleiber> i nearly buy landrover defender
[10:16] <gonzo_> and far better things to do than play radio in it. Drive for eg.
[10:16] <ottokleiber> maybe still in a few years or so
[10:16] <gonzo_> good old lr
[10:16] <daveake> I do like have an old "HAB only" car where I can leave all the kit wired in, and not worry about drilling holes or generally messig it up
[10:16] <ottokleiber> they are more exotic here than in uk
[10:17] <daveake> Not often you hear "LR" and "exotic" in the same sentence
[10:17] <ottokleiber> austria for you
[10:18] <ottokleiber> not so much you see opera or waltz in streets in your croyden i suppose
[10:18] <ottokleiber> normal here
[10:18] <ottokleiber> not to be rude, but i just visited croyden once. it did not seem like england's best bit
[10:19] <fsphil> it isn't
[10:19] <fsphil> nicest part of england I've been to is the yorkshire dales
[10:20] <ottokleiber> i have been there
[10:20] <ottokleiber> and peak district
[10:20] <ottokleiber> i like the more rounded hills
[10:20] <ottokleiber> plenty mountains in austria
[10:20] <fsphil> I've heard the peak district is nice
[10:20] <fsphil> and the lake district
[10:20] <brainles71> and great snow as well
[10:20] <ottokleiber> also england seems to like sound of music. it is not a well known thing here
[10:20] <ottokleiber> i wonder what everyone is talking about
[10:20] <daveake> rain
[10:21] <fsphil> thanks to the government, more people than ever in england now have moats
[10:22] <craag> haha
[10:22] <daveake> Ah craag ...
[10:22] <daveake> ... got my result
[10:22] <craag> So i saw!
[10:22] <daveake> B-) <-- my face
[10:22] <daveake> :)
[10:22] <craag> Congrats!
[10:22] <brainles71> I'm off buys
[10:22] <brainles71> *guys
[10:23] <craag> Got the callsign and everything :)
[10:23] <fsphil> adios brainles71
[10:23] <brainles71> congrats craag
[10:23] <daveake> M0RPI
[10:23] <brainles71> i need to get my license as well
[10:23] <craag> brainles71: Not me, daveake
[10:23] <brainles71> ill be back in a while.. just gotta go home
[10:24] <brainles71> oh sorry craag congrats daveake
[10:24] <gonzo_> the uk is mostly made up of the not best bits
[10:24] <daveake> My "cram-the-coursebook-in-8-hours-just-before-the-exam" approach worked :)
[10:24] <craag> lol
[10:24] <gonzo_> anyone with an engineering background should walk it. just read the licence regs
[10:24] <daveake> less chance of forgetting it all :)
[10:25] <daveake> Well the regs are there on paper in front of you
[10:25] <daveake> and the equations
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[10:25] <daveake> makes it all a bit easy
[10:25] <LeoBodnar> morning!
[10:25] <fsphil> #ha may have the highest concentration of advanced license amateurs who don't use radios
[10:25] <daveake> they do "distinction" and "merit" grads now
[10:25] <daveake> fsphil true!
[10:26] <gonzo_> the old C&G exam did those
[10:26] <fsphil> there was only fail/pass for mine
[10:26] <gonzo_> you get distinction then dave?
[10:26] <craag> I got a distinction in the C&G
[10:26] <fsphil> but I'm going to pretend I got a distinction
[10:26] <LeoBodnar> I don't even have a radio
[10:26] <daveake> yes I did gonzo_ :)
[10:26] <gonzo_> the C&G RAE eas two separate papers, You could resit one if you failed it
[10:26] <craag> fsphil: But I've forgotten it all since :P
[10:27] <gonzo_> no supprise dave
[10:27] <fsphil> you and me both craag
[10:27] <LeoBodnar> or you are M0 daveake ?
[10:27] <daveake> was to me :p
[10:27] <daveake> yup
[10:28] <LeoBodnar> congrats!
[10:28] <LeoBodnar> any tricky questions?
[10:28] <daveake> cheers :-)
[10:28] <daveake> Well there was one daft one
[10:28] <daveake> "which of these should you do before operating at a temporary address?"
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[10:28] <daveake> none of the answers really made sense
[10:29] <daveake> "Make a cup of tea" would have been a better answer than any there
[10:29] <LeoBodnar> bacon?
[10:29] <daveake> better still
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[10:29] <ottokleiber> i have an icom but my best receiving equipment is hp and rhode+schwarz
[10:29] <LeoBodnar> what wer ethe options?
[10:29] <daveake> one was check the moisture level in the ground
[10:29] <daveake> another was check for trees
[10:29] <daveake> can't remember the others
[10:30] <daveake> after a while I decided it wasn't going to make much difference to the result anyway
[10:31] <daveake> oh yeah "check the quality of the power supply"
[10:31] <LeoBodnar> probably that one
[10:31] <gonzo_> there are a few poor questions in the past papers. We have a few club members studying, bring them in to get an opinion.
[10:32] <LeoBodnar> they tend to concentrate more on signal quality and safety
[10:32] <ottokleiber> Prometheus: good morning
[10:32] <gonzo_> if you have jjust read the course book, you can see which point they are asking. But if you know more, then you just come up with questions
[10:32] <daveake> Well I had just read the course book but I still had questions :/
[10:33] <LeoBodnar> you can't measure RH% without proper equipment and tress are, well, "trees - check"
[10:33] <gonzo_> safety is not a licencing issue, so should be just tx sig quality, how to quantify/measure it and what it should be
[10:33] <LeoBodnar> so i'd go for power quality to make sure the TX is not drifting/distorting
[10:34] <gonzo_> as long as the out of band emmissions are within limits, that is all that is required
[10:34] <daveake> That was the only questionable question
[10:34] <gonzo_> being antisocail to other hams is not a licence issue
[10:34] <gonzo_> (otherwise lots would be banned!)
[10:34] <ottokleiber> it is vocation
[10:35] <daveake> after checking that google radio group, it seems to be a requirement
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[10:35] <gonzo_> yep
[10:35] <mfa298> and it seems some of the real safety stuff that's specific to AR gets ignored (like how close can I stand to my HF antenna when pushing 400W into it"
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[10:36] <daveake> yes. There was one about calculating the field strength, but nothing about where is/isn't safe
[10:36] <Prometheus> ottokleiber good morning!
[10:36] <ottokleiber> good morning/evening/morning
[10:36] <daveake> and that one the answer happened to be the same or very close to an example in the course book
[10:36] <daveake> So I ticked that off and wrote "guess" next to it
[10:36] <daveake> then came back later and did the calc when I had time
[10:36] <gonzo_> I think at uk power limits you are going to be hard pushed to get anywhere near limits unless you are staring into a 23cm yagi at full chat
[10:37] <LeoBodnar> oh, you do things properly then
[10:37] <daveake> :-)
[10:37] <daveake> yeah did a quick pass ticking off all the ones I knew, and leaving any that needed work or I didn't know
[10:37] <daveake> then added those up, was there are thereabouts at the pass rate, calmed down and did a second pass :)
[10:37] <nats`> gonzo_ isn't some kW limit in HF ?
[10:38] <daveake> s/are/or/
[10:38] <gonzo_> not in the UK. Unless it's a special research licence
[10:38] <mfa298> nats`: 400W for UK (or lower on some bands)
[10:38] <gonzo_> 400W on most bands
[10:38] <Prometheus> 2 Kw PEP over here
[10:38] <ottokleiber> Prometheus: what are you doing for parachute for upper stage of your N-N rockoon?
[10:39] <Prometheus> Spceplan no parachute :)
[10:39] <nats`> oky because in france it seems some HF band are limited to 1kW
[10:39] <Prometheus> spaceplane
[10:39] <nats`> safety is a big issue on thos antenna
[10:39] <mfa298> I think I decided if the antenna is high enough to work (rather than warming clouds/ground) then it's probably far enough away to be safe
[10:39] <ottokleiber> Prometheus: ah interesting
[10:40] <ottokleiber> rigid helps i am supposing
[10:40] <Prometheus> right now we are testing tha X-11E and F but the bigger one for the rocket is X-11A
[10:40] <gonzo_> hf anta are such wide beamwidth/lobes that the energy is pretty widly spread
[10:40] <Prometheus> I'm sorry X-12A
[10:40] <gurgalof> 1kW on most bands i Sweden
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[10:41] <gonzo_> I'm more interested in microwave/high uhf, so getting 400W would be luxury!
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[10:42] <gonzo_> though my only real radio in the last few years has been HAB
[10:42] <nats`> 1kW 95GHz to frighten neighboor :D
[10:42] <SpeedEvil> gonzo_: http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/1391577159/1500w_water_cooling_magnetron_48.html?s=p
[10:42] <SpeedEvil> Just wire them all together for 800kW
[10:43] <gurgalof> gonzo_: I'm allowed to transmit at 1kW at microwave freqs too...
[10:43] <Prometheus> 50w PEP on 70cm
[10:43] <ottokleiber> Prometheus: are you doing much active guiding through supersonic stage or waiting for subsonic?
[10:43] <Prometheus> active all the way
[10:43] <Prometheus> gimbaled and cold gas
[10:44] <Prometheus> the X-12A also uses cold gas
[10:44] <ottokleiber> interesting
[10:44] <ottokleiber> sounds tricky :)
[10:44] <ottokleiber> but for re-entry?
[10:44] <Prometheus> a bit
[10:45] <Prometheus> developing the cold gas software using automotive fuel injectors
[10:45] <Prometheus> fun
[10:45] <ottokleiber> what generate the cold gas?
[10:46] <Prometheus> CO2 right now or shop air
[10:46] <Prometheus> N2O on mission gas
[10:47] <Prometheus> plan so far
[10:47] <ottokleiber> if n2o, can you decompose with catalist for much better isp?
[10:47] <Prometheus> yep part of the plan possiably
[10:47] <Prometheus> that's why experimenting with
[10:47] <ottokleiber> would help lots i think
[10:48] <Prometheus> yeah a LOT
[10:48] <ottokleiber> vapour pressure of n2o after flight to space might be a bit rubbish for just cold gas, i am thinking
[10:48] <Prometheus> we may not need though
[10:48] <ottokleiber> i am not sure. my backgrounds is chemistyry and i have rocket interest, but not much actual experience with propulsion
[10:49] <Prometheus> sounds like your heading in that direction
[10:49] <ottokleiber> but i as ok with the thermodynamic of gases
[10:49] <ottokleiber> it is very interesting
[10:49] <Prometheus> thermodynamics very interesting indeed
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[10:51] <ottokleiber> yes
[10:51] <ottokleiber> we did work with n2o
[10:51] <ottokleiber> difficult to deal with as multiphase flow
[10:51] <ottokleiber> difficult to measure mass flow
[10:53] <Prometheus> yes many hybrid flyers dont understand N2O
[10:53] <Prometheus> Self presurized is LOW performance
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[10:56] <ottokleiber> yes, i have seen much more intelligent hybrid rocket with piston n2o tank
[10:56] <ottokleiber> keeps it liquid right to injector
[10:56] <ottokleiber> just n2 behind piston
[10:56] <Prometheus> N2O tank is in nosecone so some heating helps pressure for short sub orbital flight
[10:57] <Prometheus> Piston much better solution indeed
[10:57] <Prometheus> for standard hybrid
[10:58] <ottokleiber> maybe virgin take note ;)
[10:58] <Prometheus> lol
[10:58] <Prometheus> The N2O cools the nosecone actually
[10:59] <Prometheus> Mach 5+ during launch
[10:59] <ottokleiber> at least low density
[11:00] <Prometheus> but at 30km start
[11:01] <Prometheus> some gas being used during assent
[11:01] <ottokleiber> for what?
[11:01] <Prometheus> guidance
[11:01] <Prometheus> solids gimbal only 9 seconds
[11:02] <ottokleiber> each stage?
[11:02] <Prometheus> then cold gas must cover until next stage and so on
[11:02] <Prometheus> yes
[11:02] <ottokleiber> after last stage burnout, do you just allow to go up ballistic, without gas?
[11:03] <Prometheus> no controlled attitude
[11:03] <Prometheus> need pretty pictures :)
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[11:04] <Prometheus> testing equipment for live video now
[11:05] <Prometheus> There is a chance we may use NBTV
[11:05] <fsphil> the last conversation got me thinking about adding colour
[11:05] <Prometheus> Narrow Band TV
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[11:06] <Prometheus> Yeah fsphil it's all your faualt ya know
[11:06] <Prometheus> better get that working!
[11:06] <Prometheus> lol
[11:06] <Prometheus> Better share it with us too! lol
[11:07] <Prometheus> I'm counting on you to figure it out
[11:07] <Prometheus> :)
[11:07] <ottokleiber> can you not get license for some bandwidth for normal tv?
[11:07] <fsphil> this would have made a neat nbtv display: http://proto-pic.co.uk/32x32-rgb-led-matrix-panel/
[11:07] <Prometheus> Sure can but the power budget is out of wack
[11:07] <fsphil> sadly the price has more than doubled since it was released
[11:08] <Prometheus> yeah cool cost nowadays
[11:08] <Prometheus> lol
[11:09] <fsphil> I got one of the 32x16 panels and they're blindingly bright
[11:09] <fsphil> great for outdoors use
[11:09] <Prometheus> I really dont want to get into it but I wanted a big display for the side of the team van for launches
[11:09] <Prometheus> lol
[11:10] <fsphil> this would be perfect :)
[11:10] <Prometheus> YES it WOULD
[11:10] <Prometheus> cost prohibitive though
[11:10] <Prometheus> thats when I'm dreaming of some big funding
[11:10] <Prometheus> lol
[11:11] <Prometheus> I cant believe we can get funding for our porject
[11:11] <Prometheus> after 5 years I gave up trying wasting too much time
[11:11] <Prometheus> for nothing
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[11:12] <Prometheus> cant get funding that is
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[11:13] <Prometheus> I am serious fsphil I would very much like your project to collide with ours
[11:14] <Prometheus> I think it's a good match if your interested
[11:14] Nick change: kuldeepdhaka__ -> kuldeepdhaka
[11:16] <Prometheus> I'd really like to test it out on the launch in April of the X-11E
[11:16] <Prometheus> no pressure lol
[11:17] <Prometheus> I just don't have the man power or someone interested enough in that
[11:17] <daveake> I've been meaning to make a NASA-style countdown clock display
[11:18] <Prometheus> humm what's that look like daveke?
[11:18] <Prometheus> sounds cool.
[11:18] <daveake> just watch any old Apollo launch
[11:18] <daveake> just a big 7-seg display
[11:19] <daveake> mine would be slightly smaller :/
[11:19] <daveake> http://blog.onlineclock.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/countdown-clock.jpg
[11:19] <Prometheus> lol ahh ok I get it but with LED's sounds cool
[11:19] <Prometheus> wow that is huge
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[11:20] <Prometheus> I like the styling though!
[11:20] <daveake> As are their rockets
[11:20] <Prometheus> indeed
[11:21] <Prometheus> I suddenly feel very small
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[11:21] <Prometheus> lol
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[11:23] <Prometheus> We do small in a big way :)
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[11:28] <UpuWork> ping LeoBodnar
[11:30] <LeoBodnar> yo
[11:30] <UpuWork> PM
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[11:31] <fsphil> prime minister? couldn't do any worse than the current one
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[11:31] <daveake> Well it's first name is good :/
[11:31] <daveake> his
[11:32] <SM5OCI> Listened for B-38 during lunch, to no avail.
[11:38] <daveake> Apparently the south of England will have a month's rain over the next 5 days.
[11:39] <daveake> So it's easing off then :p
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[11:44] <fsphil> blue skies and sunshine here
[11:44] <fsphil> it's very unusual
[11:44] <fsphil> the forecast said snow
[11:45] <Prometheus> fsphil would you email me monroe@teamprometheus.org?
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[11:50] <Joel_re> so, I don't get any response from out Govt/Airport authority bodies for my NOTAM related mails
[11:50] Action: Joel_re considers the next step
[11:51] <brainles71> aren't they supposed to respond?
[11:52] <brainles71> where are you Joel_re
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[11:57] <Joel_re> brainles71: India
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[12:01] <SpeedEvil> At least in the UK - they don;'t actually have to respond at all in any way to email - unless they want to
[12:03] <Joel_re> hee
[12:12] <Vostok> surely there's something they are obliged to respond to?
[12:12] <Vostok> letters?
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[12:13] <mfa298> maybe you need to use RFC1149
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[12:20] <SpeedEvil> Vostok: basically - yes - letters generally
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[12:20] <LeoBodnar> Euro-tech has some interesting offers http://shop.eurotech.co.uk/collections/oscilloscopes
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[12:23] <Prometheus> I havs a Hantek 200 mhz I like it fine
[12:23] <Prometheus> less tha $400 USD
[12:24] <Prometheus> I'm sorry $500
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[12:25] <Joel_re> Vostok: I also applied via the Right to information act
[12:26] <Joel_re> it seems that the application has been forwarded to Airport Authorities of India
[12:26] <Joel_re> Im hoping they have answers soon
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[13:02] <ottokleiber> those are quite cheap LeoBodnar
[13:03] <ottokleiber> I think the new Tek scopes are not good though. Specifications is fine, interface very sluggish and unsatisfactory.
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[13:17] <Prometheus> I like my old LaCroy best
[13:17] <ottokleiber> they used to be great
[13:17] <ottokleiber> seem to be less good now
[13:17] <ottokleiber> agilent still good
[13:17] <Prometheus> all scops seem lees good these days
[13:18] <ottokleiber> the agilents are good
[13:18] <ottokleiber> rhode+schwarz is good
[13:18] <ottokleiber> rigol is ok for the $$ but many traps and compromise
[13:20] <Prometheus> at least they are afforadable these days
[13:20] <ottokleiber> sort of. good old analog scopes are cheap now
[13:20] <Prometheus> used to be a dream item
[13:20] <ottokleiber> much better to get like tek 2465 than some rigol
[13:20] <ottokleiber> unless you need storage
[13:21] <Prometheus> true it's nice to have a fast analoge
[13:21] <ottokleiber> lots of people think you need sotrage when you just need pulse generator to repeatedly triggor thing you are interest in.
[13:21] <ottokleiber> basic knoweledge lost
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[13:22] <Prometheus> true of many thigd these days
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[13:22] <ottokleiber> yes
[13:22] <ottokleiber> good for us, means more work :D
[13:22] <Prometheus> :)
[13:22] <Prometheus> Like the rockoon
[13:23] <Prometheus> best way to space bar none
[13:23] <ottokleiber> is there commercial application for rockoon?
[13:23] <Prometheus> not really much other than cansat
[13:23] <Prometheus> once the balloon get's too big it gets less attractive
[13:24] <ottokleiber> i think most people who need sub-orbit can just put $150k on grant application for normal sounding rocket
[13:24] <Prometheus> but like a J on a 300g weather balloon really is fun
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[13:24] <Prometheus> 3000g
[13:24] <ottokleiber> have you flied J from 30km?
[13:25] <ottokleiber> flown
[13:25] <ottokleiber> flew?
[13:25] <ottokleiber> flown i think
[13:25] <ottokleiber> sorry
[13:25] <Prometheus> no officaly nothing larger than small H so far :)
[13:25] <Prometheus> FAA regs change at 126g propellant
[13:26] <ottokleiber> how long have you done hab balloons?
[13:26] <Prometheus> since 2007
[13:26] <ottokleiber> what started it?
[13:27] <Prometheus> actually JP Aerospace got me started
[13:27] <Prometheus> Then Richard Nakka
[13:28] <Prometheus> The orginal X-Prize
[13:28] <ottokleiber> I read on google something about N-prize
[13:28] <ottokleiber> rockoon stuff
[13:28] <Prometheus> Learning process
[13:29] <ottokleiber> i had a session on rockoon research yesterday after worktime, seems not much done with them since van allen
[13:29] <ottokleiber> yes, N-prize look a bit optimistic to me
[13:29] <Prometheus> lol yeah well I saw it as an opertunity to start a team
[13:29] <ottokleiber> practical engineering not scale down well with rocket equation
[13:29] <Prometheus> correct
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[13:30] <Prometheus> Our current goals are much more realstic
[13:30] <ottokleiber> any n-prize team still doing rocket stuff?
[13:30] <ottokleiber> other than promentheus
[13:31] <Prometheus> I don't think anyone did as much as we did for N-Prize
[13:31] <Prometheus> not even close
[13:31] <Prometheus> The problem really is funding
[13:31] <ottokleiber> what did you do for n-prize?
[13:32] <Prometheus> long list there
[13:32] <ottokleiber> i think many team (eg university of cambridge team?) did hab stuff, and some ground rocket stuff
[13:32] <ottokleiber> didn't see any rockoon flight though
[13:33] <Prometheus> sadly no
[13:33] <Prometheus> I have not published rockoon information
[13:33] <Prometheus> too sensitive
[13:33] <mfa298> I think rockoons in the UK get tricky with the legal aspects
[13:33] <ottokleiber> there not much space
[13:33] <ottokleiber> if you do it you probably don't tell anyone
[13:33] <ottokleiber> eg Prometheus ;)
[13:34] <Prometheus> You have to be willing to g the extra effort for sure
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[13:34] <Prometheus> In July we finaly expect to publish
[13:35] <Prometheus> the N to N had to go threw the FAA
[13:35] <ottokleiber> yes, i think people would notice that
[13:35] <ottokleiber> norad :)
[13:35] <Prometheus> So it may start some rockoon research
[13:35] <Prometheus> we will see
[13:35] <ottokleiber> there was in europe a close call with norway sounding rocket
[13:36] <ottokleiber> russians did not expect it
[13:36] <Prometheus> lol yeah the ISS should see that even
[13:36] <Prometheus> Yeah I heard about that
[13:36] <Prometheus> in the 70's though I think
[13:36] <Prometheus> or 80's
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[13:36] <ottokleiber> i wonder what rockoon research there is to do. seems to me that if you have funding, you just launch from ground at a range
[13:37] <ottokleiber> if you don't have funding, you find better cheaper hobby
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[13:37] <Prometheus> I think small rockoon are useful
[13:37] <Prometheus> say a J from a 3000g balloon
[13:38] <ottokleiber> maybe you do resuable liquid first stage to get to 30km with some velocity
[13:38] <ottokleiber> then make solid second stage
[13:38] <Prometheus> Yeah there is much more to do after
[13:38] <ottokleiber> if it can be reusable reliably, then it is surely easier than balloon
[13:38] <Prometheus> What I've focused on is the infrastructure
[13:39] <Prometheus> that's why not so many rockes we launch
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[13:39] <Prometheus> no sense in it
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[13:39] <ottokleiber> solids should just work, is down to electronics
[13:40] <Prometheus> If you have to rely on NASA or the Airforce for ground support your kinda in a bad place IMO
[13:40] <Prometheus> We aquires 5000+ acers for launch site
[13:40] <ottokleiber> yes, gov range will not be part of competitive anything
[13:41] <Prometheus> with private airfield
[13:41] <Prometheus> old army base
[13:41] <ottokleiber> i still would be concern by crossrange of balloon
[13:41] <ottokleiber> making possible landing spot very big
[13:41] <daveake> oh you mean acres
[13:41] <daveake> wondered wtf those were for
[13:41] <Prometheus> Well we are on coast of Texas
[13:41] <ottokleiber> oh so you can go to sea
[13:42] <Prometheus> so launch over the Gulf
[13:42] <ottokleiber> that makes happy difference
[13:42] <daveake> spelling matters (TM)
[13:42] <Prometheus> Yes with correct weather we can float out over gulf
[13:43] <ottokleiber> so other than you, everyone on ukhas is hab only rather than rockets?
[13:43] <Prometheus> I don't know for sure I'm new here
[13:43] <ottokleiber> oh
[13:44] <ottokleiber> is just interesting to see distribution/overlappings of the hobbies
[13:44] <ottokleiber> radio, balloon, rocket etc
[13:44] <Prometheus> But these guys are active and I enjoy activity
[13:44] <Prometheus> Yes ans similar interest
[13:44] <ottokleiber> irc opposite of activity for me :)
[13:45] <Prometheus> well I can observe and work same time :)
[13:45] <ottokleiber> i watched bit of the video about gps from craag last night
[13:45] <ottokleiber> about how to make receiver
[13:45] <Prometheus> I am full time Team Prometheus
[13:45] <ottokleiber> was interesting
[13:45] <Prometheus> Yes interesting indeed
[13:46] <ottokleiber> the tracking of code and doppler at same time is good that it just seem to work well enough
[13:46] <Prometheus> Some of my teammates are here but they are quiet :)
[13:47] <Prometheus> Yes if I where better programmer I would have done that myself already
[13:49] <Prometheus> You will like our new mission control
[13:49] <Prometheus> it will be useful for the balloon guy's here as well
[13:51] <Prometheus> too cold to work on it today but next few days it will be good to progress
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[13:53] <Prometheus> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10152112554276224&set=a.216717276223.170913.213171526223&type=1&theater
[13:53] <Prometheus> This is the design we based it on
[13:54] <Prometheus> Using eyefinity for the 6 displays
[13:54] <Prometheus> 2 computers
[13:54] <Prometheus> Optical and GPS tracking antennas
[13:55] <Prometheus> with my old Kenwood in there and a 2 meter rig to boot
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[13:56] <Prometheus> We use X-Plane to see the payload be it rocket or balloon in real time
[13:56] <ottokleiber> that is an impressive setup
[13:57] <Prometheus> It has been tested it was running in the shop
[13:57] <Prometheus> and anyone on the internet can run a console
[13:57] <ottokleiber> for the birds i just had toughbook and icom
[13:58] <Prometheus> I like the toughbook
[13:59] <ottokleiber> they are good, like peli case, wouldn't buy for myself, but fine to quote into a bid
[13:59] <ottokleiber> and you pick up one and a few spare peli case after a few projects for others
[13:59] <Prometheus> makes a good ground station for UAV
[13:59] <daveake> I did a portable hab tracking station in a spare peli http://www.daveakerman.com/?p=1030
[13:59] <ottokleiber> custom foam insert for peli if customer looks like right kind of customer
[14:00] <ottokleiber> 'i saw you coming' as they say on harry enfield
[14:00] <ottokleiber> do you do any rocket daveake ?
[14:01] <ottokleiber> what is the noun for experimenting with rocket
[14:01] <ottokleiber> rocketology?
[14:01] <Prometheus> daveake yes see that type of quality work is inspiring
[14:01] <daveake> not really. just balloons.
[14:01] <ottokleiber> rocketing?
[14:01] <daveake> helping with one though
[14:01] <Prometheus> rocketeering
[14:01] <ottokleiber> so it could be just prometheus round here who does rocket...ing?
[14:01] <ottokleiber> rocketeering
[14:02] <daveake> no there are others here
[14:02] <Prometheus> I would think so
[14:02] <Prometheus> it's a close match if you have ant real interest at all in space
[14:03] <ottokleiber> daveake: who are the others? I plan not to inquisition them, just interested in sort of stuff they do
[14:03] <Prometheus> Balloons beat rockets hands down though
[14:03] <Prometheus> price wise
[14:03] <Prometheus> and for altitude
[14:04] <Prometheus> hang time
[14:04] <Prometheus> everything!
[14:04] <ottokleiber> balloon can surely not get much above 40-45km
[14:04] <ottokleiber> low for rockets :)
[14:04] <Prometheus> not really
[14:04] <Prometheus> Rockets rearly makk 30km
[14:04] <craag> Getting permission to put a rocket nearly that high is v difficult in the uk
[14:05] <ottokleiber> Prometheus: maybe no hobby solids
[14:05] <daveake> especially if, when they ask "where is the launch site", the answer is "no idea"
[14:05] <Prometheus> arocket big enough for that is not my fav kind of rocket
[14:05] <Prometheus> too expensive
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[14:06] <Prometheus> right but who can afford anything else?
[14:06] <ottokleiber> but, unless i don't see the maths right, a rocket with about 4m high, 30cm wide, about 150kg of propellant etc (sort of size i was thinking about) should get higher than that. liquid fuels/oxidisers
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[14:08] <Prometheus> well my Q motor is 60cm wide and just over 3m tall
[14:08] <ottokleiber> daveake: lohan looks interesting. another rockoon
[14:08] <ottokleiber> Prometheus: i bet though velocity square losses are high with that
[14:08] <Prometheus> and it wont make much over 30km
[14:09] <Prometheus> right
[14:09] <ottokleiber> in my maths i assume lower acceleration
[14:09] <Prometheus> Yeah Lohan is cool!
[14:09] <Prometheus> It cost $6000 in propellant
[14:10] <Prometheus> so ya gotta figure balloon make a whole lot of sense
[14:10] <Prometheus> and once you figure tha the rockoon is the obvious best
[14:11] <Prometheus> bang for you buck
[14:11] <ottokleiber> if you need a boat to recover rocket, surely $6000 is bargain?
[14:11] <Prometheus> without doubt
[14:11] <ottokleiber> recover rockoon*
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[14:11] <Prometheus> Well remember our payload flies
[14:12] <daveake> Someone in NL (I think it was) deliberately landed a HAB in the North Sea
[14:12] <Prometheus> and we have our own runway
[14:12] <daveake> near where a team member was on board a research vessel
[14:12] <daveake> handily :p
[14:12] <Prometheus> Yes and you can wait for it to wash ashore as well
[14:12] <daveake> sometimes works
[14:12] <Prometheus> if you plan properly
[14:12] <daveake> not something I'd recommend
[14:12] <ottokleiber> is 'ed' who did gps talk on irc?
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[14:12] <ottokleiber> i have a question
[14:13] <Darkside> eroomde: ping
[14:13] <ottokleiber> that is him?
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[14:14] <Prometheus> IF your flying a small rockoon it's not as important
[14:14] <Prometheus> For sure there are many factors in any attemps a very high altitudes
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[14:15] <ottokleiber> he mentioned gps for rockets, does he do rocketeering?
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[14:15] <Prometheus> you have to force yourself to overcome the reality of it
[14:16] <Prometheus> and jump the hoops
[14:17] <Prometheus> I imagine once we do the July launch it will change the overwhelming hard to do ness
[14:18] <Prometheus> I invision many rockoon flights will happen
[14:19] <Prometheus> once the pill gets swallowed
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[14:20] <Prometheus> The other problem is there have been some rockoons but no team ever folled up
[14:20] <Prometheus> followed up and made it posiable for others to try it
[14:21] <Prometheus> and all the ones I know of failed to perform as expected and for that you have to correct mistakes
[14:21] <ottokleiber> it seem a lot of the challenge is regulatory
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[14:22] <Prometheus> no team I know of ever tried again and they all seemed to make the same mistakes
[14:22] <ottokleiber> i mean obviously technically not easy, but to try something interesting (M or so) must be headache with laws
[14:22] <Prometheus> Actually our FAA is handeling it pretty good
[14:23] <Prometheus> and once we do a few regulated mission I believe it will get easier for other to do
[14:23] <Prometheus> we can present how to do that once it's done a few times
[14:24] <Prometheus> We have a man in DC that is working directly with the FAA
[14:24] <Prometheus> so we can make that posiable
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[14:25] <Prometheus> So I think with a proven method and a path for legal issues
[14:25] <Prometheus> rockoon will become more common
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[14:30] <Prometheus> are the lohan guy's on this irc?
[14:30] <UpuWork> some of us yes
[14:30] <Prometheus> your using ardupilot
[14:31] <Prometheus> If so I have some information for you
[14:32] <Prometheus> UpuWork you are involved?
[14:32] <ottokleiber> if ed who give gps talk is eroomde then i have a technical question or two for him, perhaps i see him some time later if he is on
[14:33] <daveake> Same guy but he's away at the mo
[14:34] <Prometheus> I'm willing to share some things to lohan if they are interested
[14:34] <ottokleiber> daveake: ok thanks. last time i ask as i realise combination of bad english and repetition might make me sound like harry enfield character (love that show), but from the talk it suggest he might do some rocketeering too? if so cool. well, i guess i ask him himself some time
[14:34] <Prometheus> About running hardware in the loop for testing purposes
[14:35] <daveake> He's been involved in the CUSF rocket flights and he works for a rocket engine company
[14:35] <Prometheus> X-Plane can handel the flight dynamis very well if you have a good model of your lohan plane to use in X-Plane
[14:36] <LeoBodnar> Ed Moore is here: http://www.reactionengines.co.uk/
[14:36] <Prometheus> In this way you can test fly the plane and make sure it performs as expected
[14:36] <ottokleiber> oh wow, so he understand rockets then. cool, i hope to talk him when he is back
[14:36] <Prometheus> perhaps save yourself some issues
[14:37] <Darkside> Prometheus: i'm fairly sure they've thought of this..
[14:38] <Prometheus> Ed Moore working on Skylon?
[14:38] <daveake> Darkside: So am I :-)
[14:40] <Prometheus> Takes more than a thought to get it to work properly
[14:41] <Prometheus> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epbNMech1wA#t=12
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[14:41] <ottokleiber> skylon look awesome
[14:42] <Prometheus> Ed Moore working on Skylon visits this irc?
[14:42] <nats`> ask him by e-mail
[14:42] <UpuWork> I do a backup tracker for Lohan Prometheus
[14:42] <ottokleiber> againt is is nearly 4 in austria, i should probably do a few hours of work today
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[14:42] <UpuWork> I don't get involved in the rest of it as its very silly and unlikely to work
[14:42] <UpuWork> but good fun none the less
[14:42] <daveake> :)
[14:42] <Prometheus> ahh great UpuWork
[14:43] <Prometheus> yeah your right that's why I'm suggesting HIL in X-Plane
[14:43] <Prometheus> to make it work :)
[14:45] <Prometheus> Our guy at VSkyLabs is in the UK
[14:45] <Prometheus> he may be willing to help all I'm really saying
[14:45] <ottokleiber> Prometheus: i think that is what they are just saying - eroomde is ed moore who did gps talk
[14:45] <ottokleiber> ok bye all
[14:45] <ottokleiber> thank you for the interesting conversations again
[14:46] <Prometheus> The rest is fairly straight forward but you do need a great model to get good results
[14:46] <Prometheus> ottokleiber see ya later
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[14:48] <Prometheus> Reason I ask about Mr. Moore is I have some planes to test a similar device on a model turbine engine
[14:48] <Prometheus> using nono coating to prevent ice build up
[14:48] <Prometheus> nano
[14:50] <Prometheus> Because a Nike trubine from http://www.amtjets.com/ can produce 15o pounds of thrust
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[14:51] <Prometheus> that's enough for a first stage booster for a small rocket
[14:53] <Prometheus> you don't have to go the full skylon route to take advantage of that tech
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[14:54] Nick change: englishman_ -> englishman
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[14:57] <Prometheus> daveake you still here?
[14:57] <daveake> Prometheus: PM
[14:58] <Prometheus> ok what PM mean?
[14:58] <Prometheus> lol
[14:58] <Prometheus> You working on Skylon>
[14:58] <daveake> Pruvate Message - check your IRC client there should be a new tab or window with me in it
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[15:07] <craag> Clearly more than one irc tab open at once is too productive.
[15:07] <fsphil> just having one is counter productive
[15:08] Nick change: kuldeepdhaka_ -> kuldeepdhaka
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[15:20] <jededu> Where can I get small quantites of SMD Resistors
[15:21] <LeoBodnar> buy a component book on eBay
[15:21] <LeoBodnar> will come handy many many times
[15:22] <mattbrejza> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191055213220 jededu
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[15:23] <jededu> Thanks diddnt know they existed
[15:28] <fsphil> that's quite neat
[15:30] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, got a question for you if you have a minute. I'm using the Thor16 code from upu. I've got it basically running on an pro mini 8mhz, but with my board which has a 27mhz vcxo, etc. that part is all working...
[15:30] <UpuWork> your step size will be wrong
[15:30] <aadamson> but when I try to step through the thor tones, I get to the 3rd one and it lock sup the spi bus
[15:30] <aadamson> Upu, I recalculated all those
[15:30] <LeoBodnar> ah, interesting
[15:30] <UpuWork> 27Mhz won't give the correct step size for THOR16 (or Dominox)
[15:30] <aadamson> 27mhz doesn't give the right tones
[15:31] <UpuWork> locks up ?
[15:31] <LeoBodnar> how much power do you use?
[15:31] <aadamson> yep, I know
[15:31] <UpuWork> odd
[15:31] <UpuWork> have fun
[15:31] <UpuWork> :)
[15:31] <aadamson> I can turn that down, right now it's running at 20db
[15:31] <aadamson> BTW, UpuWork, I'm not sure you chip setup is correct even for your xo
[15:32] <UpuWork> probably not but it works
[15:32] <aadamson> I calculated the values with wds3 for both you and me and your modem deviation seems to be wrong
[15:32] <aadamson> if you wanted 450 hz of deviation for example, you should check those
[15:32] <aadamson> but that isn't the problem where
[15:32] <aadamson> it was just an observation
[15:32] <LeoBodnar> turn the power down and see if it still locks up
[15:33] <aadamson> LeoBodnar, ok, I'll try that
[15:34] <aadamson> it's funny, I see the led (on pin 13 which is the spi clk) go on constant after the 3rd set for a channel
[15:35] <aadamson> UpuWork, the other thing you should check is that when using a tcxo or vcxo (external osc) you can turn off the internal capacitors in the si chip so you aren't getting any influence from them in the LO
[15:35] <LeoBodnar> ah, CLK is MCU generated
[15:35] <LeoBodnar> then your MCU locks up
[15:35] <aadamson> if you generate the header out of the wds3 app, you'll see all the setup for a specific freq/etc
[15:36] <aadamson> yes you are right LeoBodnar, I forgot that
[15:36] <aadamson> I must have a bad pointer or memory being overwritten somewhere, I'll go look at that
[15:37] Nick change: Sytex_AWAY -> Sytex
[15:38] <aadamson> mostly just wondered if you guys had seen anything similar, but it appears not... (and yes I know that I can't make the existing thor code meet the correct frequencies with a 27mhz vcxo) - but I can do it via the vcxo, which will be my next trial :)
[15:40] <fsphil> for testing you could modify fldigi to expect wider spacing
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[15:40] <fsphil> probably not worth it
[15:40] <aadamson> yeah with a 27mhz vcxo, the single step is something like 12.xx hz
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[15:46] <OZ1SKY_Brian> hi
[15:46] <DL1SGP1> Hej Brian :)
[15:47] <OZ1SKY_Brian> Hi Felix
[15:48] <OZ1SKY_Brian> So B-38 didnt come alive again
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[15:48] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[15:48] <DL1SGP1> looks like it
[15:52] <OZ1SKY_Brian> btw, if you get up here another time, there is a good repeater resource here http://www.d-star4all.dk/dstar4all_repmap_frame.html
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[15:54] <DL1SGP1> yup, I was checking on that site prior to my trip
[15:54] <OZ1SKY_Brian> ok
[15:54] <DL1SGP1> but thanks :)
[15:55] <DL1SGP1> and I strongly hope on making it there some time again
[15:55] <DL1SGP1> :)
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[16:06] <aadamson> UpuWork, quick question, why 2fsk, when you are just really doing ook or cw as the mode?
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[16:08] <aadamson> if you were using one of the gpio pins and diddling the modem between multiple tones, i could see 2fsk, but you are just stepping frequency to create fsk doing it by channel, seems the CW mode would work for that as well?
[16:10] <fsphil> left over from rtty I suspect
[16:10] <aadamson> yeah the light just went on.
[16:10] <aadamson> the modem deviation isn't used - that was left over as well
[16:10] <aadamson> and the setup on the modem was as well.
[16:11] <aadamson> its set for gpio1 and 2fsk
[16:11] <aadamson> so to take out some variables, I don't need the modem deviation setup
[16:11] <aadamson> can I can change the modem setup to probably be cw
[16:11] <aadamson> ok, I may get to the bottom of this yet :)
[16:13] <aadamson> I'd have to do the math and it's not worth the effort, but I'll bet you could do the right thor tones with a 27mhz vcxo, you'd just have to create the right steps *and* use 2fsk to get the inbetweens :)
[16:13] <aadamson> there are much easier ways just using the vcxo however, but I want to make this work as is first... it's how I learn :)
[16:14] <Adam_> Afternoon all, anyone planning a flight anytime soon that I could come and watch?
[16:14] <Adam_> I'm Adam by the way! :)
[16:14] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Adam are you on the forum, which has the announcments
[16:15] <craag> Adam_: Where are you located?
[16:15] <UpuWork> there is far too much enthusiasm on here lately :)
[16:15] <Adam_> No i'm not
[16:15] <Adam_> I'm in Oxford
[16:15] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/ukhas
[16:15] <UpuWork> when the weather stops being pants Adam_
[16:15] <Adam_> I was here the other day actually, just watching the progress of the b-38
[16:15] <craag> Yeah there'll be lots of launches once the weather clears up
[16:15] <daveake> Several people are waiting for the weather to sort itself out
[16:16] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> There is also an iCal file available for announcments http://habitat.habhub.org/calendar/
[16:16] <Adam_> Awesome, thanks very much!
[16:18] <craag> You're nicely placed in the middle of the centres of activity (cambridge, south coast, worcester)
[16:19] <daveake> I'd add Berkshire but that'll change before the weather does!
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[16:19] <craag> Yep! How's that going daveake ?
[16:20] <daveake> Moving in just over 2 weeks
[16:20] <daveake> Contracts exchanged removals booked
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[16:21] <daveake> FTTC in June
[16:21] <daveake> :)
[16:21] <craag> :D
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[16:21] <daveake> We'll have a launch party for that one :)
[16:21] <daveake> Assuming the weather fixes itself that os
[16:21] <daveake> is
[16:22] <DL1SGP1> I really hope for you all that weather will change until june :)
[16:22] <kd2eat> daveake: Do you perhaps have a diagram/site/description of your Raspberry pi tracking configuration? Cornell is doing a HAB next month. I hope to have a pico tracker going, but we'll have a Pi with another radio. I'm thinking of setting up a backup tracker on it.
[16:23] <daveake> Well it varies, but the simplest is to connect NTX2 and GPS to the serial port
[16:23] <kd2eat> I was considering hooking a GPS breakout module to it, and using something like Soundmodem to squirt out APRS packets.
[16:24] <daveake> ah, APRS
[16:24] <daveake> dunno then
[16:24] <fsphil> you'd have to hack the audio out
[16:24] <kd2eat> Oh? I thought soundmodem was basically AX-25.
[16:25] <fsphil> it is, it sends it out over the sound card
[16:25] <fsphil> depends on your radio I guess
[16:25] <kd2eat> Ya, so my thinking was to run the sound card output into a gutted HT radio.
[16:25] <fsphil> the HX1 module doesn't work well with DC filtered signals
[16:25] <kd2eat> I'd use one of those doo-dads with the transformers.
[16:26] <kd2eat> It's a kludge, but I have the weight budget to get away with it.
[16:27] <craag> I've done APRS with the Pi, but used a USB soundcard as I was digipeating.
[16:28] <craag> But it was gps on the uart, gpsd running. Then a python script to generate the aprs packets.
[16:28] <craag> I then had aprx doing the digipeating and reading the beacon from a file (generated by the python script).
[16:28] <craag> But you can send a packet directly to one of the ax25 tools.
[16:29] <kd2eat> Ya, just what I was thinking. Just get the latest output from gpsd, and mangle up an APRS string and send it.
[16:29] <craag> A collection of scripts here: https://github.com/philcrump/mobile-aprs
[16:30] <craag> Although my altitude compression is bugged, so you'd need to fix that if you wanted to use compressed packets.
[16:30] <Adam_> Awesome, I'd like to do my own flight in the summer and record the action with a GoPro. Ideally i'd like to keep costs to a minimum and try not to lose the GoPro, but I understand that there is a risk of that happening.
[16:31] <mfa298> daveake: I'd only trust the fttc date once it's been installed. The exchange I'm on changed from 31/12/13 to 31/3/14 a couple of weeks ago (and has been changing to previous date + 3 months for a while)
[16:31] <craag> Adam_: Excellent. Yes there is a risk, but we can help you minimise it.
[16:31] <daveake> ta
[16:31] <kd2eat> Thanks craag! :-)
[16:32] <UpuWork> someone needs to make a Pi APRS using a BiMH1
[16:32] <UpuWork> Also http://www.kubonweb.de/?p=130
[16:32] <craag> UpuWork: I still have the one you gave me... but more projects keep getting *pre*pended to the list.
[16:32] <UpuWork> haha yeah I know :)
[16:32] <daveake> translation: I've got more important/interesting/both stuff to do :p
[16:33] <kd2eat> What's a BiMH1?
[16:33] <craag> daveake: yep, always the way ;)
[16:33] <kd2eat> Google tells me it's a model of Airbus. lol
[16:33] <UpuWork> 0.5W 144.390Mhz transciever
[16:33] <LeoBodnar> craag: compressed altitude using log equation?
[16:33] <UpuWork> http://www.radiometrix.com/content/bim1h
[16:33] <LeoBodnar> *power equation
[16:34] <mfa298> lolz, google for BiMH1 Radiometrix just showed me one hit, for the logs on this channel!
[16:34] <craag> LeoBodnar: Erm to the APRS compression standard. It's been ~4 years since I wrote it tbh!
[16:34] <craag> So can't remember specifics
[16:34] <UpuWork> probably because I keep misspelling it
[16:34] <Adam_> craag: Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'll keep an eye on the forum for launches, if I could come along to one that would be great
[16:34] <LeoBodnar> cheers craag
[16:35] <kd2eat> Ahh, nice. Ya, I looked at that a while back before I started trying to build a Pico.
[16:35] <LeoBodnar> they have two - one in Mic-E and another is in power translation formula
[16:36] <kd2eat> I probably should have started with the BiM1H. Killin' myself to get this pico working, but it's close. lol. Given I didn't know what reflow soldering was 3 months ago, I guess I've come a long way.
[16:36] <craag> LeoBodnar: It was power translation then. Mic-E looked horrible.
[16:37] <Adam_> I have started gathering bits for the payload already, I plan to do a similar thing to the 'Project Edgar' launch, using a tap cover
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[16:44] <daveake> Oh, the robot/spaceship one?
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[16:47] <ibanezmatt13> Snow heading your way Upu / UpuWork if you haven't already got it.
[16:47] <UpuWork> lol
[16:47] <UpuWork> all my engineers are going on about it
[16:47] <UpuWork> my face isn't bothered
[16:47] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, really heavy
[16:47] <UpuWork> you got it now ?
[16:48] <ibanezmatt13> me neither to be honest :P
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[16:48] <ibanezmatt13> yeah
[16:48] <mattbrejza> no fair you get snow :(
[16:48] <mattbrejza> we just get rain
[16:48] <UpuWork> I have a Quattro with Winter Tyres BRING IT ON
[16:48] <daveake> UpuWork Finally you get to use your winter tyres :)
[16:48] <UpuWork> I know
[16:48] <daveake> too slow
[16:48] <UpuWork> they've been taking the piss for 2 months
[16:49] <mattbrejza> unfortinetly the cars going slow ahead of you wont have those tires...
[16:49] <UpuWork> I know this may put a stopper in my plan
[16:49] <ibanezmatt13> at least you can drive round them when they get stucj
[16:49] <UpuWork> this is the issue with living up a hill
[16:49] <mattbrejza> traffic was amusing here last snow day (for me, i walk in)
[16:50] <UpuWork> this was my house last year
[16:50] <UpuWork> please wait imgur..
[16:50] <mattbrejza> not that i actually bothered going in, had better things to do
[16:50] <UpuWork> http://i.imgur.com/coPZ4Ms.jpg
[16:50] <ibanezmatt13> slightly more snow than we get :P
[16:53] <Reb-SM3ULC> UpuWork: oh, nice
[16:53] <Reb-SM3ULC> UpuWork: not uusal wniter here
[16:54] <UpuWork> its overly warm here atm
[16:54] <mattbrejza> http://imgur.com/eNGXLeD
[16:55] <mattbrejza> http://i.imgur.com/2OvevvP.jpg
[16:56] <mattbrejza> was very sticky snow, everything went white
[16:56] <mattbrejza> great for snowballs oc
[16:57] <mattbrejza> i doubt there'll be snow down here this year with the weather stuck how it is
[16:58] <LeoBodnar> Interesting! Time-inverted PN9 produces maximum cross-correlation with the direct PN9 of only 45 which makes correlation ratio between direct and reversed code of ~11 (511/45). Which is about the same as in GPS system
[16:58] <LeoBodnar> oops wrong screen
[16:59] <DL1SGP1> nah, I enjoyed reading that :) hi LeoBodnar
[16:59] <mattbrejza> it didnt exactly look out of place here
[17:00] <mfa298> I remember a few years ago, the first year we had snow that lasted more than an hour down south, it was fun seeing all the cars that had failed to take it into account (lots of cars at odd angles on glen eyre road - including the flatter bit at the top)
[17:00] Action: DL1SGP1 remembers snow in Southampton
[17:01] <mattbrejza> http://i.imgur.com/s757kep.jpg mfa298 (the avenue)
[17:01] <mattbrejza> at least most of it was slush at this point
[17:01] <mattbrejza> was still one person who was wheel spinning like crazy
[17:05] <mfa298> always fun to see people failing to drive in snow
[17:05] <mfa298> not so fun trying to walk down the pavements after a load of students have compacted the snow into icerink quality ice.
[17:06] <craag> hehe
[17:06] <daveake> This is Upu http://i.minus.com/ihgC9T8gGKkuV.gif
[17:06] <mattbrejza> however would be amusing to observe the students walk back (up the hill) on said ice after drinking usual amounts
[17:06] <mattbrejza> this was during exams mind you
[17:07] <Laurenceb> http://www.st.com/web/catalog/mmc/FM141/SC1169/SS1817/LN1845/PF259790
[17:07] <Laurenceb> looks nice
[17:07] <craag> The large proportion of the student intake who have never seen snow/ice before also provide entertainment.
[17:08] <mattbrejza> reminds me of http://i.imgur.com/gL1OY.gif
[17:08] <daveake> hah
[17:08] <daveake> not the same bus though :p
[17:08] <Laurenceb> hehe "running late?"
[17:09] <mattbrejza> also http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkTw7J-hGmg
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[17:10] <mattbrejza> Laurenceb: what are they gonna call the next lower power device they produce?
[17:11] <Laurenceb> heh
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[17:13] <mattbrejza> and thanks to the internet, once again in gif form: http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/3819256/like-a-bus-o.gif
[17:13] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[17:14] <mattbrejza> yo
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[17:15] <adwiens_KC0WYS> http://i.imgur.com/gL1OY.gif
[17:16] Nick change: Sytex -> Sytex_AWAY
[17:18] <Lunar_Lander> mattbrejza, Like A Bus is awesome :D
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[17:29] <ibanezmatt13> Wow, Solidworks lets you export straight to CNC software, not that that's any use to me but cool
[17:31] <mattbrejza> does it have a standard 'print' button, sitting next to a '3D print' button?
[17:31] <mattbrejza> because it should...
[17:31] <ibanezmatt13> Don't know, I've not got it yet. Just watching vids :)
[17:31] <adwiens_KC0WYS> ping Prometheus
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[17:34] <mattbrejza> ibanezmatt13: it does...
[17:34] <mattbrejza> :D
[17:34] <edjuh> where can I find information on TWICK ?
[17:34] <ibanezmatt13> cool :)
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[17:41] <aadamson> bizarre, I've ripped the code apart so it's just the bare bones, the code doesn't crash the processor, for some reason the clock pin just goes nuts after the second channel send, if I pull that pin, it's not coming from the processor, it's coming from the si chip... so, beginning to wonder if the 4463 setup needs to be different from the 4060.... got more to look at when I get back from running around
[17:43] <aadamson> I may just scratch the AVR approach and move right to the stm, I have much better debugging capabilities there...
[17:44] <aadamson> doesn't matter what channel step I put in, do it two times and this happens... hmm
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[17:59] <adwiens_KC0WYS> thionyl chloride is terrible in the cold: http://adwiens.com/projects/balloons/batt/er14250.gif
[17:59] <adwiens_KC0WYS> the curves are every 50th drain cycle
[17:59] <adwiens_KC0WYS> at 32 mA
[18:00] <daveake> What temp is that at?
[18:01] <daveake> and is that voltage scale correct?
[18:01] <adwiens_KC0WYS> yes voltage is correct. it went negative because the internal impedance
[18:01] <adwiens_KC0WYS> temp was freezer
[18:01] <adwiens_KC0WYS> sec
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[18:02] <daveake> Oh so it's a 32mA constant current drain?
[18:02] <adwiens_KC0WYS> no it's a 10 seconds on-10 seconds off pulsed 32 ma drain :P
[18:03] <daveake> OK so I don't understand how the battery is producing a -ve voltage
[18:03] <adwiens_KC0WYS> i will show you
[18:03] <daveake> maybe I'm missing something here
[18:03] <adwiens_KC0WYS> http://adwiens.com/projects/balloons/batt/schematic.jpg
[18:03] <LeoBodnar> heh, you didn't even have to test
[18:03] <adwiens_KC0WYS> it's in series with a 5v supply
[18:03] <LeoBodnar> but at least they explode well
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[18:03] <adwiens_KC0WYS> LeoBodnar: I wasn't going to but there was a debate about it so I did
[18:03] <adwiens_KC0WYS> daveake: it's in series with a 5v supply, so it can go negative
[18:04] <adwiens_KC0WYS> daveake: otherwise you can't pull a constant current when the voltage gets low enough
[18:04] <daveake> you've done what I said
[18:04] <LeoBodnar> DCDC stuff is usually constant power
[18:04] <adwiens_KC0WYS> yeah i mean using the 317 that i had on hand
[18:04] <LeoBodnar> *almost
[18:04] <adwiens_KC0WYS> i dont have a dc-dc on hand at the moment
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[18:05] <LeoBodnar> well if you intend to power your tracker via DCDC it will eat constant power
[18:05] <adwiens_KC0WYS> of course
[18:05] <daveake> Anyway, yes, we know these things are shite in the cold for our purposes
[18:06] <adwiens_KC0WYS> lol i'm trying to model that with a 317
[18:06] <adwiens_KC0WYS> so i stuck a 5v in series to handle the low voltages
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[18:06] <adwiens_KC0WYS> yes
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[18:06] <LeoBodnar> so your lower voltage end will look even worse than now
[18:06] <daveake> yup
[18:07] <adwiens_KC0WYS> oh constant power yeah
[18:07] <adwiens_KC0WYS> sorry was thinking constant current
[18:07] <daveake> Actually it gets worse
[18:07] <daveake> lower voltage means a less efficient step-up
[18:08] <adwiens_KC0WYS> yup yup
[18:08] <daveake> so the power draw increases with low batt v
[18:08] <LeoBodnar> yeah, whatever M0 said ^^
[18:09] <daveake> lol
[18:09] <daveake> Once you see the voltage dropping on such a HAB, you haven't got much time left :p
[18:09] <LeoBodnar> what current this battery rated for at room temp?
[18:10] <daveake> LeoBodnar When's your M0 then? :)
[18:10] <LeoBodnar> M0XER
[18:10] <daveake> ah
[18:10] <adwiens_KC0WYS> LeoBodnar: 40mA max for 1/2 capacity, http://omnicel.com/specs/ER14250_11-06.pdf
[18:10] <daveake> thought you borrowed that :p
[18:10] <LeoBodnar> borrowed a callsign?! lol
[18:10] <daveake> as if
[18:10] <daveake> :)
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[18:12] <LeoBodnar> Upu offered to use his but we decided it's a bit silly
[18:13] <daveake> We need more HAB M0's anyway :)
[18:14] <DL1SGP2> Lemme send 20 pounds to ofcom :D
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[19:08] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar: ping
[19:09] <LeoBodnar> yo
[19:09] <DL7AD> which type of battery did you use for B-38? AA?
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[19:10] <LeoBodnar> AAA
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[19:47] <Reb-SM3ULC> btw, hf-aprs, been used on HABs?
[19:50] <fsphil> don't believe so
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[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> hej Reb-SM3ULC
[19:55] <Lunar_Lander> hi fsphil
[19:56] <fsphil> evenin'
[19:56] <fsphil> about 5cm of snow outside here :)
[19:57] <Reb-SM3ULC> :)
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[20:04] <aadamson> go figure... guess what it was... Upu uses a 2mhz clock and as a result he sets the SPI speed to SPI2X (or deviced FCLK/2)... I use an 8mhz clock and the si446x doesn't like to be clocked that fast :)
[20:05] <aadamson> adjust the spi timing and poof, i'm back working again *I think* :)
[20:05] <Upu> oh I had that issue now you mention it :/
[20:05] <Upu> sorry
[20:05] <aadamson> Upu, no worry, and don't take any of my comments too personally, it's just a learning exedition for me :)
[20:06] <Upu> this is the internet I don't take anything personally
[20:06] <aadamson> don't know if you saw my earlier comments... but you can pull out a bunch of code that you don't need, all that modem deviation stuff... you don't use it
[20:06] <aadamson> and you can configure the chip for CW you don't need to config it for 2fsk
[20:06] <Upu> the code does need optimising
[20:06] <aadamson> all that was left over from the rtty stuff
[20:06] <Upu> yeah most likely
[20:07] <Upu> the code was thrown together over a few nights
[20:07] <Upu> baed on existing code
[20:07] <Upu> based
[20:07] <Upu> hence stuff in there thats not needed
[20:07] <Upu> I will review it at some point
[20:07] <Upu> modem deviation ?
[20:07] <aadamson> I was about to rip out your spi stuff and replace it with real arduino library version, but then I decided to check the clock speed.... and *bingo*
[20:08] <aadamson> yeah, look down in the set frequency code, there is a section that sets the modem deviation
[20:08] <Lunar_Lander> hi anthony
[20:08] <Upu> hi lunar
[20:08] <aadamson> and attempts to set it to a 400-450hz deviation... but you aren't using the modem, you are just changing frequencies by step
[20:08] <Upu> I'll check that out
[20:08] <Upu> yes left over from RTTY
[20:09] <Upu> the code previous to that let you use a #define to switch from RTTY to DOMINO
[20:09] <Upu> hence it all being left in
[20:09] <aadamson> and the _set_modem() sets up the chip for GPOI-x toggle and 2fsk, which can just be CW and you can ignore all the gpio stuff
[20:10] <aadamson> but you should see all the *math* that I created in a spreadsheet for next time I embark on this task :).
[20:10] <aadamson> that's a keeper along with a bunch of PWM math that I did for the aprs side..
[20:11] <Upu> https://github.com/Upuaut/APRS_Projects/tree/master/Pico92
[20:11] <aadamson> ok, I'll give ya another tidbit, you can name files beside the .ino to .cpp and you don't have to do the *include "source.c"* stuff, the build environment will do that for you, makes dealing with headers and the span of variables much easier.
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[20:12] <Upu> I should really use the Atmel studio
[20:12] <aadamson> for example, I couldn't use Serial.write() in the si406x module until I restructured a little and applied the above
[20:12] <aadamson> yeah, that's what I'm using
[20:12] <aadamson> with the plug in
[20:12] <aadamson> for arduino
[20:12] <aadamson> it works great
[20:13] <Upu> so is it working ?
[20:13] <aadamson> i'm not much of a visual studio fan, (much perfer) eclipse, but it will suffice
[20:14] <fsphil> does atmel studio use gcc?
[20:14] <fsphil> or their own compiler?
[20:14] <aadamson> I dunno yet, I just found that fix and got all excited and started typing :)... about to *listen* to it after I back out a bunch of other *chase your tail* things that I did - but hey, I completely understand what is going on and how this works, which was worth it
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[20:14] <aadamson> fsphil, you know I'm not 100% sure, I think gcc
[20:14] <aadamson> because you can update it along the way after the install
[20:15] <aadamson> http://www.visualmicro.com/page/Arduino-for-Atmel-Studio.aspx
[20:15] <aadamson> the magic plug in for arduino
[20:15] <fsphil> possibly a better solution for windows users than arduino
[20:15] <Upu> indeed
[20:15] <fsphil> the arduino ide is an awful thing
[20:15] <aadamson> oh, and you can just use *real* visual studio if you wanted, but you'd have to figure out the toolchain issues
[20:15] <aadamson> atmel studio is just the *skinny version* of visual studio
[20:16] <mattbrejza> tbh avrs are simple enough you can compile at the command line
[20:17] <kd2eat> I have to confess I'm more comfortable in Atmel Studio, even though I don't use 99% of the features.
[20:17] <mattbrejza> avr-gcc -mmcu=attiny2313 -DF_CPU=8000000 -Wall -Os main.c -o main.elf
[20:18] <mattbrejza> at least that way you can just use your favourite text editor
[20:18] <kd2eat> Only if I developed in Linux. lol
[20:18] <mattbrejza> i do that on windows
[20:20] <kd2eat> I should really set up a Linux atmel development environment for myself. I'm totally hobbled trying to use either Atmel studio or Arduino IDE in windows. My hands have been doing C coding on Unix since the 80s. Tney just want to be there, regardless of what my head tells them.
[20:20] <mfa298> you can get vim/gvim for windows - not sure about emacs (if you're one of those people)
[20:21] <kd2eat> Pffft. Emacs. *grumbles about editors that think they're shell environments*
[20:21] <mfa298> when I develop stuff on windows I have to keep deleting ":wq" from the documents
[20:21] <kd2eat> lol
[20:22] <kd2eat> I can neither confirm nor deny that there are suspicious ZZ's around in files I've edited in Windoze.
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[20:27] <LeoBodnar> aadamson: I am clocking SPI at 8.15MHz
[20:27] <aadamson> whoo hoo, it works
[20:27] <aadamson> have no idea what it's saying, but it warbles with the best of them :)
[20:28] <aadamson> and drifts like crazy :)
[20:28] <kd2eat> Umm Congratulations? lol
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[20:29] <aadamson> ok, need to clean up a few more things
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[20:31] <LeoBodnar> so was it SPI clock?
[20:31] <fsphil> rfm22b then?
[20:31] <fsphil> those things are so drifty
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> aadamson: " The SPI interface is designed to operate at a maximum of 10 MHz."
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> are you using correct SPI mode?
[20:32] <aadamson> yes I know the the spi on the 4163 isn't
[20:32] <aadamson> 4463
[20:32] <aadamson> or is it?
[20:33] <LeoBodnar> it is or isn't what? :D
[20:33] <aadamson> is that 10mhz on the spi rate for the 4463?
[20:33] <LeoBodnar> yes this is from the RTFDS
[20:34] <LeoBodnar> My standard clocking rate is 8.15MHz
[20:34] <LeoBodnar> and it never had issues
[20:34] <aadamson> ok, well it didn't like /* Enable SPI hardware, Master mode, MSB first, F_CPU / 8 */
[20:34] <aadamson> SPCR = _BV(SPE) | _BV(MSTR) | _BV(SPR0);
[20:34] <aadamson> SPSR &= _BV(SPI2X);
[20:34] <LeoBodnar> but 16MHz does not work well
[20:34] <aadamson> minus that _BV(SPR0)
[20:34] <aadamson> without that it wouldn't run
[20:34] <LeoBodnar> this is alien to me
[20:35] <aadamson> hehe, that's the avr registers to setup spi
[20:35] <aadamson> a carry over from the upu code
[20:35] <aadamson> normally I'd use the spi library stuff
[20:35] <aadamson> but I just worked with what I had
[20:35] <LeoBodnar> I know a few quotes related to Upu code
[20:35] <aadamson> basically it was 8000000/2
[20:35] <LeoBodnar> (from Upu himself)
[20:35] <aadamson> and that didn't work
[20:36] <aadamson> I changed it to 8000000/8 and it works
[20:36] <LeoBodnar> doublecheck the SPI mode
[20:36] <aadamson> i *haven't* look at the actual clock... yes, I will do that
[20:36] <LeoBodnar> or just all the modes
[20:36] <LeoBodnar> if you don't want to check
[20:36] <aadamson> here is a screen shot of what it's doing... https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/warbles.png
[20:36] <LeoBodnar> *try
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> lovely snake
[20:37] <aadamson> warbling away
[20:38] <aadamson> with what should be 24hz tones as the math on a 27mhz vcxo only gives 12.x steps and I'm using a 2 step change at the moment
[20:38] <aadamson> just wanted something that was wide enough so that I'd hear it
[20:38] <LeoBodnar> with SPI I don't trust things and DS until I have seen it on the scope
[20:38] <aadamson> yeah me too, was about to go there when I figure out what I found
[20:38] <aadamson> and then decided to try it before I scoped it
[20:39] <aadamson> it's funny, there is no *zero crossing* detection so you hear the step change when it's out of phase and a distinct *click* (or is the FCD), but you can hear the clicks
[20:40] <LeoBodnar> if it latches data on the wrong clock edge it *might* work but fails now and then
[20:40] <aadamson> yeah, I'll check all of that, really didn't want to spend too much time on the AVR version, just wanted something to work so I can then move to the stm32f3
[20:40] <aadamson> just as a reference point on the avr
[20:40] <aadamson> on the stm, I know what the spi setup is
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[21:55] <aadamson> upu ya listening?
[21:56] <Upu> negative houston
[21:56] <LeoBodnar> !
[21:56] <aadamson> so will I need to adjust the timer1 frequency if my pro mini is running at 8mhz?
[21:56] <aadamson> instead of 2?
[21:57] <aadamson> I should say the pre-scaler
[21:57] <aadamson> not frequency
[21:57] <aadamson> I *really* suck at the low level avr stuff
[21:57] <Upu> yup
[21:58] <aadamson> so you use a / 1024,
[21:58] <Upu> but didn't we make it so you just put in F_CPU
[21:58] <Upu> and it does the rest ?
[21:58] <aadamson> it takes that yes, but just wondering if the pre-scaler needs to be changed
[21:58] <aadamson> ?
[21:58] <aadamson> it's set for / 1024
[21:58] <aadamson> He's why I started to wonder
[21:59] <Upu> oh ok
[21:59] <aadamson> I listened to an actual thor16 signal and decoded it from fl-digi, I look at how much signal width it took
[21:59] <aadamson> then I looked at what should have been a 12.x hz spaced thor16 and it was about 1/4 as wide
[22:00] <aadamson> so I cranked up the number of steps for the frequency change and it took 4 to get a similar width
[22:00] <aadamson> so I suspect the plus length of the individual steps is wrong and that would be effected by the timer controlling how long a given frequency were transmitting
[22:02] <aadamson> *but* in theory it should work.
[22:02] <aadamson> timer1 is a 16 bit timer and the math give s a 500 count at 8mhz vs. a 125 at 2.
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[22:02] <aadamson> so it shouldn't be overflowing and may be right
[22:04] <aadamson> I doubt it would work *even if I got the math right* due to the min step size, but I was just trying to get everything else correct
[22:04] <aadamson> do you have a wav of an actual signal from your version? that I can compare against
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[22:29] <aadamson> ok, worked backwards and the math around the baud clock should work for *all speeds of cpu*
[22:31] <fsphil> yep
[22:31] <fsphil> as long as the result of the calculation fits into the register
[22:31] <fsphil> some are 16-bit, others 8-bit
[22:34] <aadamson> yeah, for 15.625 baud, you need 64ms of time and 64ms of time at a 8mhz crystal with a 1024 prescaler is 500 clicks
[22:34] <aadamson> and timer 1 is a 16 bit timer so I believe it's good....
[22:35] <aadamson> the code probably needed cli()/sei()'s around it, but there were no interrupts running so it's probably ok
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[22:37] <aadamson> I guess I'll diddle a bit and look at it on the scope just to see how long the IRQ is taking... just to make sure it's 64ms or there abouts...
[22:37] <aadamson> to LeoBodnar point about *trust* but verify :)
[22:38] <aadamson> more fun and games later, time to walk the dogs and get ready for the ice storm of the century it appears :(... not looking forward to that
[22:39] <aadamson> luckly all utilities are below ground, but I'm sure somewhere a tree is gonna fall... dang it
[22:39] <fsphil> if it's the version I think it is, the interrupt is fairly brief
[22:39] <fsphil> it was designed to run on a 2mhz clock
[22:39] <aadamson> oh yeah, it should easily run in 64ms, there's nothing to it
[22:40] <aadamson> I'd just like to make sure the timer is firing at 64ms is all I'm after as that determines the duration of a given frequency in the FSK scheme
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[22:45] <fsphil> I suspect (but have not verified) that thor is much more sensitive to frequency error than timing
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[00:00] --- Wed Feb 12 2014