highaltitude.log.20140201

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[00:42] <vk3mtv> test
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[00:45] <VK4PYL-bambi> ~byes~
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[01:12] <cats7896> hi
[01:12] <craag> Good evening
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[01:14] <cats7896> Good evening to you too!
[01:23] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
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[03:48] <kd2eat> Evenin' all :-)
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[06:58] <SP3OSJ> #habhub
[06:58] <SP3OSJ> Hi pleaser enter Doc ID: 33df177e9ed2378847955ce1d5b1cfaa
[07:20] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[07:20] <SP3OSJ> Is anybody here? Does anybody hear me? My computer is good?
[07:21] <x-f> good morning, SP3OSJ
[07:21] <x-f> i believe the habhub people are still asleep, it's a bit early for them
[07:21] <SP3OSJ> goog moning
[07:22] <SP3OSJ> That tracker ceased to transmit broke down. :(
[07:22] <x-f> oh
[07:24] <x-f> you are using the Si4432 chip?
[07:28] <SP3OSJ> yes
[07:29] <x-f> do you reset it once in a while?
[07:30] <SP3OSJ> Si4432 only 70cm RTTY and SI4463 2m (RTTY APRT, DominoEX)
[07:30] <SP3OSJ> no reset
[07:42] <x-f> you should, that might be the reason why your trackers go silent
[07:43] <x-f> well, depends on how you have them programmed - if you power the radio down after every transmission, then that counts as a reset, of course
[07:49] <SP3OSJ> Reset to GPS. GPS is good. This transmitter has stopped working
[07:50] <SP3OSJ> Transmitter or Controller (AVR)?
[07:50] <x-f> transmitter
[07:52] <SP3OSJ> Yes SI4432, can quartz 30MHz?
[07:53] <SP3OSJ> I'm going to do a new trackers
[07:54] <x-f> i didn't understand what you meant by "can quartz 30 MHz"
[07:56] <x-f> i have to go out now
[07:56] <x-f> we're having a snowstorm here (in Latvia), -10C and 10 m/s wind, expecting freezing rain and ice later, because there are positive temps above 1.5km.. fun.
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[08:41] <SP9UOB-Tom> morning all
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[08:54] <Reb-SM3ULC> morrn
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[08:57] <DL7AD> good morning
[08:57] <SP9UOB-Tom> hello :-)
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[09:00] <nosebleedkt> morning !
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[09:03] <Upu> approved SP3OSJ
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[09:21] <ibanezmatt13> gorgeous sunrise up here, for once :)
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[09:29] <Reb-SM3ULC> SP3OSJ: launching another one?
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[09:30] <SP3OSJ> to day no
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[10:19] <Upu> did SP3OSJ die ?
[10:21] <SP3OSJ> tracker SP3OSJ blow to the airplane
[10:21] <Upu> it hit a plane ?
[10:21] <SP3OSJ> died tracker
[10:22] <Upu> and the plane ?
[10:23] <SP3OSJ> small plane my friend
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[10:24] <Upu> what was he doing flying near it ?
[10:25] <SP3OSJ> Nothing has happened. It flew past
[10:26] <Upu> any pics ?
[10:27] <SP3OSJ> I do not have
[10:28] <Upu> ok shame
[10:28] <Upu> I'll remove from the tracker if thats ok ?
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[10:55] Nick change: Sytex_AWAY -> Sytex
[10:55] <Sytex> re
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[10:59] <LeoBodnar> morning *
[11:00] <PA3ECL> afternoon
[11:01] <Sytex> lunch
[11:01] <LeoBodnar> Happy New Month!
[11:01] <Sytex> :)
[11:01] <SP9UOB-Tom> lol. HAppy !
[11:02] <Sytex> SP9UOB-Tom: Do you have any flight direction prediction?
[11:03] <SP9UOB-Tom> Sytex: http://predict.habhub.org/#!/uuid=91d8997acdde8c6723384c54769f20f16a34a4d1
[11:03] <Sytex> I have a remote controlled RTL-SDR on 756m AMSL high mountain near Budapest with an 5/8 VHF ant. Maybe I will try to turn it on.
[11:04] Action: SP9UOB-Tom is going to the launch site
[11:04] <Sytex> Okay, I see the link... opposite way...
[11:04] <Sytex> brb, have to go lunch
[11:05] Nick change: Sytex -> Sytex_EAT
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[11:10] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: what is the estimated RTC accuracy required to keep track of PRN edges inside 1ms or 2ms samples segment?
[11:10] <LeoBodnar> I have estimated it to be something within a minute
[11:10] <LeoBodnar> seems to much
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[11:14] <LeoBodnar> *too
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[11:22] <VK4HIA> Upu are you around Anthony?
[11:22] <Upu> morning VK4HIA
[11:22] <Upu> get it back ?
[11:23] <VK4HIA> G'day, Habduino performed well AND its in my hot little hands
[11:23] <Upu> awesome :)
[11:23] <VK4HIA> Drift was negligable
[11:23] <Upu> yeah the LMT2 has a TCXO on it
[11:23] <VK4HIA> Very happy mate, thanks for your help.
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[11:24] <Upu> more than welcome send me a link to pics when yuo get a mo
[11:24] <VK4HIA> Yes, Youtube vid will be up tomorrow.
[11:25] <VK4HIA> And link to pics, got to sort through them all
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[11:29] <Darkside> VK4HIA: yo
[11:29] <Darkside> what happened with the other VK4 chase tam
[11:29] <Darkside> looked like they got lost
[11:31] Nick change: Sytex_EAT -> Sytex
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[11:36] <VK4HIA> Darkside, we had mobile coverage issues
[11:36] <VK4HIA> So the chase car icons were left at last point of reception
[11:37] <Darkside> no, this guy took a wrong turn it looks
[11:37] <VK4HIA> I'm glad you couldnt see the icons twards the end - cue benny hill music!
[11:38] <VK4HIA> 4AHR was in convoy with me all day
[11:38] <Darkside> ah
[11:38] <Darkside> so you took th wrong turn!
[11:38] <VK4HIA> Plenty of wrong turns
[11:38] <Darkside> ended up down a road, and had to backtrack
[11:38] <VK4HIA> haha :)
[11:38] <Darkside> i was watching
[11:38] <Darkside> trid to call you
[11:38] <Darkside> but yeah, obviously no 3g covrage
[11:38] <VK4HIA> We had a few laughs at our nav and map reading skills
[11:38] <Darkside> ill have to talk to terry about open sourcing our offline balloon prediction stuff
[11:39] <LeoBodnar> so is left and right swapped in Oz?
[11:39] <VK4HIA> OK, sounds interesting
[11:39] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: yes
[11:39] <Darkside> and up and down
[11:39] <LeoBodnar> lol cool
[11:40] <fsphil> they do at least drive on the correct side of the road
[11:40] <LeoBodnar> oh yeah
[11:40] <LeoBodnar> but backwards
[11:41] <fsphil> they designed the cars backwards so it works out
[11:41] <LeoBodnar> yep
[11:41] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: have you seen the red dwarf ep "BAckwards"
[11:41] <LeoBodnar> no
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[11:41] <Darkside> that ep is an accurate representation of life in australia
[11:41] <fsphil> Nodnol
[11:41] <Darkside> aww
[11:42] <Darkside> fsphil: lol
[11:42] <LeoBodnar> haha
[11:42] <LeoBodnar> ahah
[11:42] <fsphil> one of the reasons I built an audio capture device for my amiga was to record and reverse the sound of that episode
[11:43] <Darkside> HAHAHA
[11:43] <Darkside> you're the one sad git!
[11:43] <LeoBodnar> 'straya is a lovely place
[11:43] <fsphil> yep lol
[11:43] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: sure is
[11:43] <Darkside> australia australia we love you, amen
[11:43] <Darkside> crack tube
[11:46] <LeoBodnar> Tom is up
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[12:05] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: What do you mean. Do you mean 'at what point will my RTC drift so much I will mispredict an edge', and miss iit'
[12:06] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: There are numbers of known edges in the handover words and similar at the start of the nav message - which is broadcast at integral 6 seconds throughout the week.
[12:08] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: If you know your very rough position, and do the required orbital sums, and are willing to do a tiny bit of maths, the drift can be quite large.
[12:12] <SpeedEvil> A 10ppm RTC (yes, you will likely needto calibrate it) will drift 1ms in ~100s.
[12:13] <SpeedEvil> But remember - all the sats 'drift' at once if you drift like this. So, the resulting position may end up really, really unlikely - or more likely impossibe - so you can solve for time.
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> And, of course, you are getting samples from that 1-2ms of radio from scattered sats reporting from about 6000km range differences - so you really have not got a 1ms or 2ms sampling time - but a sparse 20ms.
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[12:18] <LeoBodnar> Basically at what time accuracy you misrepresent a PRN edge for the one before/after
[12:18] <LeoBodnar> this is about chip timing, not NAV bit timing
[12:19] <LeoBodnar> Considering Laurenceb's A-GPS idea
[12:19] <SpeedEvil> ah
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[12:20] <SpeedEvil> With the dithered clock?
[12:20] <LeoBodnar> I assume it is 1/2 chip length which at max doppler of 10kHz will be about
[12:20] <LeoBodnar> 78 sec
[12:20] <LeoBodnar> no with clean LO
[12:20] <SpeedEvil> I suspect this may be something I haven't heard of
[12:21] <LeoBodnar> so you wake up to look at chip edges and it has drifted more than 1/2 chip length
[12:21] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right
[12:21] <SpeedEvil> you can fix that to a degree by picking when you know there is likely to be a nav bit transition
[12:21] <LeoBodnar> sure
[12:21] <LeoBodnar> but you might as well do it for all sats
[12:22] <LeoBodnar> in which case they are scattered about 20ms from each other
[12:22] <SpeedEvil> Quite.
[12:22] <LeoBodnar> assuming they are all having a transition, say at preamble time
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[12:22] <LeoBodnar> so 40msec sample ate the right time (6sec) should bring it all back
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> 40ms seems pretty generous.
[12:23] <LeoBodnar> to good synchronicity
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> But yes - that should be quite adequate.
[12:23] <LeoBodnar> well 22 then
[12:23] <LeoBodnar> I assume if you have to store 20msec worth of data you might as well do 20msec integration time
[12:24] <SpeedEvil> I suppose the sane thing to ask now is 'what can cheap (in terms of power and cost) crystals do at a constantish temperature.
[12:24] <LeoBodnar> oh wait then it should be 60msec
[12:24] <LeoBodnar> 40msec ntegration window + 20msec offset between sats
[12:25] <SpeedEvil> That's a total 20ms or so for the whole constellation. They're spread by about an earth radius in time - from the closest overhead to those on the horizon
[12:25] <LeoBodnar> it is still only 120kB of data on 4110
[12:25] <LeoBodnar> From memory it is about 20msec
[12:26] <SpeedEvil> It is surprising in some ways how easy this is.
[12:26] <SpeedEvil> Then again - it was designed for 1980s tech.
[12:27] <LeoBodnar> yeah and surprisingly there appear new ways of skinning it
[12:27] <SpeedEvil> 'Oh we do it that way because my grandfather did' shading in.
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[12:28] <SpeedEvil> (and has the relevant patents, which must be actually valuable)
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[12:31] <Sytex> Szia András!
[12:31] <Sytex> HA6NN:
[12:32] Nick change: Sytex -> Sytex_HA7018_PMR
[12:32] Nick change: Sytex_HA7018_PMR -> Sytex_HA7018
[12:33] <HA6NN> Sytex_HA7018_PMR Szia Gergo!
[12:34] det_ (4ff3d478@gateway/web/freenode/ip.79.243.212.120) joined #highaltitude.
[12:34] <Sytex_HA7018> There was no free space for K letter, so i changed back :)
[12:34] <ak4rp> szia Sytex_HA7018 HA6NN
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[12:34] <HA6NN> Sytex_HA7018_PMR: a spacenear.us weblapon nám látok ballont!
[12:35] <HA6NN> sytex_HA7018: Igy mar jobb! :)
[12:35] <Sytex_HA7018> HA6NN: Pedig ott vannak, töltsd újra a lapot. Mindjárt ránkszólnak, hogy English only! :)
[12:35] <HA6NN> ak4rp: Szia Péter!
[12:36] <Sytex_HA7018> ak4rp: Hi Peter!
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[12:36] <HA6NN> Oda se' neki!
[12:36] <HA6NN> So, never mind! :)
[12:36] <HA6NN> Guess we have no chance to hear a balloon today!
[12:37] <HA6NN> Masat 1 comes well and sends high speed data.
[12:38] <Sytex_HA7018> HA6NN: SP9UOB is hedaing away from us
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[12:39] <ak4rp> actually, if you look carefully, the coverage circle still keeps extending to the south, albeit very-very slowly :)
[12:41] <Sytex_HA7018> also notoced that, but it extends very-very slow southwards
[12:41] <Sytex_HA7018> *noticed
[12:41] <Oddstr13> what about a ground-attached RTL-SDR lifted off of the ground with a balon, for reception? wouldn't that increase range quite a bit?
[12:41] <HA6NN> I can see Pilis tower, HA7018 and myself on the tracker map but no ballons at all!
[12:42] <ak4rp> HA6NN: try reloading it. or look at the mobile tracker.
[12:42] <HA6NN> ak4rp: I did...
[12:42] <craag> HA6NN: http://habmap.philcrump.co.uk/
[12:42] <craag> Try that
[12:43] <ak4rp> Oddstr13: lol
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[12:43] <HA6NN> craag. Hi, got it! I see the balloon on that URL. Thanks!
[12:43] <craag> :)
[12:44] <Sytex_HA7018> Oddstr13: yeah, but you need to pull a couple of hundred meters UTP or USB cable after you :)
[12:44] <Sytex_HA7018> Or biuld an RTTY repeater
[12:44] <mfa298> Oddstr13: a receiver on a balloon will only give you extra range if you can get it significantly high (although a short distance might help overcome local obstacles
[12:45] <Oddstr13> well... mountains? :P
[12:46] <Oddstr13> Sytex_HA7018: a copule hundred meters of USB cable? are you crazy? ._.
[12:46] <Oddstr13> that'd never end well
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[12:47] <HA6NN> Masat 1 pass half an hour from now...
[12:47] <Oddstr13> mfa298: so, a good directional antenna would do more?
[12:47] <mfa298> depends on what the issue is. In most cases it's the ground getting in the way.
[12:48] <Oddstr13> aww :P
[12:48] <daveake> silly ground; always popping up where it's not wanted
[12:48] <Sytex_HA7018> Oddstr13: I know and thats why the smile icon was at the end of my sentence ;)
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[12:49] <mfa298> In theory if you're on the blue circle on the map the balloon is on the horizon - this assumes that you're at 0m ASL and there aren't additional obstructions.
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[12:50] <ak4rp> I could tether a USRP to a balloon and use it as a repeater. :) I'm not sure I want to try it though.
[12:50] <craag> I think sp9uob is feeling the effects of all the Warsaw tractor beams right now
[12:50] <craag> That is an amazing concentration of receivers
[12:50] <mfa298> if you happen to see a payload at the same height you could get a reciever, the radius of it's blue circle would give an idea of what extra range you might get (might only be a few miles unless you can get something above a few hundred meters ASL.
[12:50] <Sytex_HA7018> But for after-land-search a quadcopter with SDR and some electronics (maybe raspi) will help much
[12:51] <Geoff-G8DHE> Object Movie for the VK4HIA flight http://360.g8dhe.net/HAB_Flights/2014_Flights/VK4HIA_20140201/
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[12:52] <mfa298> Sytex_HA7018: Getting an antenna up high after landing might help (although hopefully if you're chasing it you'll have a pretty good idea where it is anyway)
[12:52] <HA6NN> Geoff-G8HDE: Hi, Thanks for the URL! Nice pictures, indeed!
[12:52] <ak4rp> mfa298 is the blue circle accounting only for the geometry or also for refraction stuff?
[12:52] <Oddstr13> mfa298: according to my phone's GPS, i'm 611m MSL
[12:53] <LeoBodnar> I don't think it is corrected for frequency ak4rp
[12:54] <ak4rp> no 4/3 earth radius and stuff like that
[12:55] <Sytex_HA7018> Assume, that you have the last packet at 500-600 meters high before landing. There is a big area what you have to search. But, If you go to the last knowm position, fly up as high as you can with a quad, and if the payload is still working, you can record the audio, land with quad, decode the recording, and you know the exact position.
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> ak4rp: It simpy computes horizon - assuming a zero altitude sphere.
[12:56] <SpeedEvil> ak4rp: this can be dramatically out
[12:56] <ak4rp> I see
[12:56] <mfa298> ak4rp: I think it's just geometry and assumes all the ground is at 0m ASL (so if you're above sea level with a good view to the horizon your range might be slightly further, if there's a hill in the way the range will be reduced)
[12:56] <Geoff-G8DHE> Looks like SAtratdean is likely to make the Arctic before SP9UOB!
[12:57] <Geoff-G8DHE> *Stratodean
[12:58] <Oddstr13> SP9UOB is designed to float, not burst?
[12:58] <Geoff-G8DHE> Hopefully!
[12:59] <mfa298> Sytex_HA7018: a position at 500m above ground with suitable predictions you should have a pretty good idea of where it landed. and usually as you approach it you'll hear it when your close.
[13:00] <Sytex_HA7018> mfa298: but if you cannot heart it for any reasons (terrain, etc), i think a quad is very good for plan B
[13:00] <Sytex_HA7018> *hear
[13:01] <LeoBodnar> yes Oddstr13
[13:01] <mfa298> Sytex_HA7018: a Quad may help although you may still need to be relativly close (partly depending on local laws) if you can only fly it to 100m above ground it wont have a huge range (but better than you on the ground)
[13:02] <mfa298> Sytex_HA7018: but the first challenge might be finding a suitable way to receiver the telemetry with something that could go on a quad
[13:03] <Sytex_HA7018> rtl-sdr & raspberry pi & and some recording software. I think it is not necessary to decode on the quad, after you land with the quad, you can play the recording and decode it with a laptop.
[13:04] <Darkside> ok
[13:04] <Darkside> so over 32 launches, we've never needed anything like that
[13:04] <Darkside> you know what we do?
[13:04] <Darkside> we drive to a hill
[13:04] <Darkside> we also have yagi antennas
[13:04] <Darkside> we'v never had a problem
[13:05] <mikestir> yeah we received wggs1 from 2 miles away using a 7 ele after the last position was received at 800m
[13:05] <Darkside> even laying on the ground, you can usually pick up the signal even if its not decodable) a few km away
[13:05] <Darkside> yeah
[13:05] <Darkside> and you dont need to decode it to get a direction
[13:05] <Darkside> foxhunting yo
[13:05] <mikestir> exactly - we got a decode after following the bearing for a bit
[13:05] <Darkside> yup
[13:05] <Darkside> thats how they did it in the days before GPS
[13:05] <LeoBodnar> I also never needed a quad
[13:06] <Sytex_HA7018> Okay, it is just theory, combining hobbies with each other...
[13:06] Action: Oddstr13 wants to be able to track balloons ._.
[13:06] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: how many of yours have you recovered?
[13:06] <Darkside> like, 2?
[13:06] <Darkside> if that
[13:06] <mfa298> in the last couple of years worth of UK launches I can only think of one or two payloads that couldn't be located after landing - and that was potentially down to the skill of those chasing
[13:06] <LeoBodnar> you know what I do? make a cuppa
[13:06] <Darkside> lol
[13:06] <LeoBodnar> and make a new balloon
[13:07] <HA6NN> It seems to me, it well worth to listen to BBC Global Weather forecasts. They are able to show the main wind directions as well.
[13:07] <Darkside> HA6NN: wind on ground != wind at 20km
[13:07] <ak4rp> people who use SI446x: do you need modulator hacks like varicaps for these parts?
[13:07] <Darkside> we have the predictor for a region
[13:07] <Darkside> reason*
[13:07] <ak4rp> I mean for DominoEX etc
[13:07] <LeoBodnar> I think 3 or 4 Darkside
[13:07] <Darkside> ak4rp: most dont
[13:07] <mfa298> HA6NN: or use the predictors which get all the global wind data at various heights from NOAA
[13:07] <Darkside> ak4rp: if you put in teh right crystal, you end up with shift spacing that are correct
[13:08] <HA6NN> Darkside: Are you sure BBC shows ground level winds?
[13:08] <Darkside> ak4rp: LeoBodnar could fill you in better
[13:08] <Darkside> HA6NN: its what relevant to people on the ground
[13:08] <Darkside> so, yes
[13:08] <HA6NN> Darkside: I see.
[13:08] <Darkside> i mean, sure, it might be 10m winds or something
[13:08] <Darkside> but its not that relevant to a high altitude balloon, not for the most part of the flight anyway
[13:08] <Darkside> again, we use the predictor
[13:08] <Darkside> its very good.
[13:09] <LeoBodnar> ak4rp: there are two camps who drive it differently
[13:09] <HA6NN> Darkside: Of course. A fellow of ours has just made a fresh predictiion.
[13:09] <mfa298> Sytex_HA7018: going back slightly, getting the Pi to decode audio from SSB is easier said than done. I've already spent some time trying to do it (just for ground based reception)
[13:10] <Geoff-G8DHE> South Coast UK wind speed at ground level - well 10m http://weather.g8dhe.net/wdl/
[13:10] <ak4rp> yeah, I should have thought about the crystal sooner. I've put together a board with a 30 MHz TCXO
[13:10] <HA6NN> I am to switch to Masat 1 pass over now. See you soon!
[13:10] <mikestir> mfa298: did you see the thing about the GPU FFT library released for the pi recently?
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[13:11] <LeoBodnar> has GPU been reverse engineered then>
[13:11] <Darkside> mikestir: are you volunteering to add support for it into dl-fldigi?
[13:11] <LeoBodnar> ?
[13:11] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: nah broadcom supplied the blob
[13:11] <mikestir> Darkside: I was thinking it would be nice to add to my websdr, but I haven't got time to work on that never mind fldigi :(
[13:11] <LeoBodnar> I am surprised nobody ripped the code apart
[13:12] <Darkside> it might happen
[13:12] <mikestir> it's apparently 10 times faster than an unspecified reference
[13:12] <mikestir> probably fftw
[13:12] <mfa298> mikestir: I saw someone mention it here the other day, also the rtl_fm tool looks promising but I've not managed to make its SSB decoders work
[13:12] <Sytex_HA7018> ak4rp: Where did you find a suitable 30Mhz TCXO for SI44xx? And can't find in the popular electronics shops in HUN.
[13:12] <mikestir> yes the ssb decoder I wrote for webradio was based on the rtl_fm one - I don't think they actually work
[13:13] <mikestir> because it doesn't work in webradio either!
[13:13] <LeoBodnar> you can redefine freq steps for DominoEX in dl-fldigi if you are desperate
[13:13] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: not recommended
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[13:13] <sq2ear> sq2ear
[13:13] <LeoBodnar> well it has to match symbolrate
[13:13] <Darkside> yeah
[13:13] <ak4rp> Sytex_HA7018: Levi gave it to me of course :) but probably you can get it at farnell
[13:13] <mfa298> the closest I got to anything working was using the AM demodulator on airband which managed to do some quietning when there was a signal
[13:13] <LeoBodnar> i thought they can be both changed?
[13:13] <LeoBodnar> haven't looked closely
[13:14] <Darkside> if shift = symbol_rate you should b ok
[13:14] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[13:14] <Darkside> but
[13:14] <Darkside> if you change it, the symbol lengths wont be 'nice'
[13:14] <LeoBodnar> *multiple
[13:14] <Darkside> i.e. 256, 512, 1024 samples long
[13:14] <ak4rp> LeoBodnar: next time I'll use a good frequency, but you say I'll be able to do small frequency steps without dirty tricks, right?
[13:14] <Darkside> thats how we end up with odd baud rates lik 7.8125 baud
[13:14] <LeoBodnar> ah ,yeah the whole universe is tied to Soundblaster sample rates
[13:15] <Darkside> yeah
[13:15] <Darkside> and FFT sizes
[13:15] <LeoBodnar> Gravis
[13:15] <Sytex_HA7018> ak4rp: Levi.. I thought it :) farnell is okay, but first I tried to buy in country
[13:15] <LeoBodnar> and the rest
[13:15] <Darkside> LeoBodnar: its quite neat though
[13:15] <LeoBodnar> sure
[13:15] <ak4rp> LeoBodnar: I think all these modes assume orthogonal FSK which means your frequency deviation must be a multiple of the inverse symbol time
[13:15] <Darkside> works out well
[13:15] <Darkside> ak4rp: yes
[13:15] <Darkside> ak4rp: we just mentioned that :P
[13:15] <sq2ear> hello, can i write in polish langue ???
[13:16] <ak4rp> Sytex_HA7018: fdh.hu
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[13:16] <LeoBodnar> sure ak4rp
[13:16] <Geoff-G8DHE> Guess it depends if you have a Polish keyboard ;-)
[13:16] <Darkside> sq2ear: sure, doesnt mean anyone will understand you
[13:17] <sq2ear> oki...sorry
[13:17] <LeoBodnar> sq2ear just go ahead!
[13:17] <ak4rp> Darkside: I just rephrased it scientifically :))))
[13:18] <Darkside> ak4rp: yes :P
[13:18] <Darkside> but yeah, these are all orthogonal, non-coherent MFSK modes
[13:18] <sq2ear> i have a question , how registred on http://spacenear.us/tracker/ becouse have set my sign
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[13:19] <sq2ear> in Receivers:
[13:19] <Darkside> ak4rp: you might know, what would be required for coherent MFSK to work?
[13:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:tracking_guide:polish
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[13:19] <Darkside> ak4rp: is it even possible?
[13:19] <Oddstr13> SP9UOB sure is heavily tracked o.o
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[13:19] <sq2ear> G8DHE thanks ...you are great...
[13:19] <Darkside> i presume we need to have some kind of phase reference, which might not be possible
[13:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> Critical bit is the DL Client config tab sq2ear
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[13:20] <ak4rp> you mean continuous phase or not?
[13:21] <Darkside> ak4rp: well making the transmitter continuous phase is easy
[13:21] <Darkside> a few flights have been like that already
[13:21] <Darkside> modulating the VCO, so the phase is constant anyway
[13:21] <Darkside> not sure if you can make use of that on the ground though
[13:21] <ak4rp> if it is continuous phase, then recovering the phase is "easy"
[13:21] <ak4rp> and you can use a bank of matched filters theoretically
[13:22] <Darkside> well the bank of matched filters approach is how a non-coherent demodulator works
[13:22] <Darkside> im not sure how the coherent part comes in
[13:22] <ak4rp> the optimum coherent receiver can also be cast as a bank of matched filters
[13:23] <Darkside> hrm
[13:23] <ak4rp> I think :)
[13:23] <Darkside> i wrote what i'm pretty sure is a non-coherent reciver a few days ago :P
[13:23] <ak4rp> the other way would be PAM decomposition
[13:24] <Darkside> i take a DFT of the overall signal energy (obtained from fft bins) and use the phase of that to gt the symbol timing
[13:24] <ak4rp> but PAM easy PAM decompositions don't work for integer modulation indexes, which is exactly what you get with these DominoEX-like orthogonal schemes
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[13:25] <ak4rp> yeah, but you don't really need a full DFT
[13:25] <Darkside> single point DFT
[13:25] <Darkside> at the symbol rate
[13:25] <ak4rp> you're only interested in the phase of a single Fourier coefficient
[13:25] <Darkside> yep
[13:25] <Darkside> thats what i'm doing
[13:25] <ak4rp> yes, it is pretty standard for clock recovery I guess
[13:26] <Darkside> i also take that DFT over several symbol periods, as otherwise it breaks when you have sequential identical symbols
[13:26] <Darkside> as the signal energy stays constant ovr that time
[13:26] <Darkside> that isnt a problem for DominoEX and THOR
[13:27] <Darkside> but theortically DominoEX and THOR Should have a 3db pendalty over MFSK16/32, as they are effectively 'differential' MFSK
[13:27] <Darkside> (kind of)
[13:28] <Darkside> they use the spacing between tones to convey data, not the absolute tone frequency
[13:28] <Darkside> im not sure if that 3db penalty is present though, i need to do some uncoded BER vs Eb/No tests on the modems and find out
[13:29] <ak4rp> I'm not sure... think about coherently detecting DPSK
[13:30] <Darkside> this is all non-coherent though
[13:30] <Darkside> i've been meaning to write a fldigi BER test-set :P
[13:30] <Darkside> maybe i should get off my ass and actually do it
[13:30] <ak4rp> that would be certainly useful
[13:30] <Darkside> and see how these modems stack up to the theory
[13:30] <Darkside> because im pretty sure the FSK modem is a fair way off
[13:31] <ak4rp> how does it work?
[13:31] <Darkside> dunno
[13:31] <Darkside> but its supposedly gotten worse with the last few updates
[13:31] <ak4rp> CPM is a big magic
[13:33] <HA6NN> ak4rp: Received and decoded heaps of high speed data from Masat 1 down to one degree of elevation!
[13:33] <ak4rp> you should look at Sundberg's book if you can. I suppose they have something to say about coherent MFSK demodulation. If nothing else, huge error rate approximations :)
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[13:33] <Darkside> ak4rp: ok
[13:34] <ak4rp> but I'm pretty sure bank of exponentials will work
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[13:34] <Darkside> hrm
[13:34] <ak4rp> and you gain something compared to the non coherent version because there is no noise contribution from the "quadrature" branches which
[13:34] <Darkside> CPM Wouldnt work well on channels with phase distortion, would it
[13:35] <ak4rp> ... are necessary for the nonoherent demodulator
[13:35] <Darkside> well i was pretty sure the coherent demodulator was going to be better
[13:36] <Darkside> im not sure if the effort is worth it after coding though
[13:37] <ak4rp> yeah, equalization would be pretty hopeless in a balloon setting
[13:37] Nick change: Sytex_HA7018 -> Sytex_AWAY
[13:37] <Darkside> well
[13:37] <Darkside> it'd be easier than on HF
[13:37] <Darkside> which is where most of my efforts are focused
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[13:38] <Darkside> at least from a balloon you're not going to have serious multipath effects
[13:38] <ak4rp> I don't know... the ionosphere is evil, isn't it? considerable Doppler spread etc
[13:38] <Darkside> at worst you get the occasional bit of flat fading
[13:38] <Darkside> the ionosphere is horrible
[13:38] <Darkside> doppler spread, delay spread
[13:38] <Darkside> multipath interference
[13:39] <ak4rp> and then you've got the equalization problem again
[13:39] <Darkside> yeah
[13:39] <Darkside> which is why i'v only ever seen non-coherent MFSK receivers used on HF
[13:39] <Darkside> theres probably a good reason
[13:40] <Darkside> actually thats not true, i think MIL-STD-188-141B ALE might have coherent reciver implementations, as that does some equalisation
[13:40] <Darkside> thats 8ary FSK
[13:41] <Darkside> anyways
[13:41] <ak4rp> maybe linear approximations work... I'm not really an expert. if GSM works so well, it should not be very hard to do it with more levels, should it? :)
[13:41] <Darkside> dunno
[13:42] <Darkside> anyway, good chat :-)
[13:42] <ak4rp> unless your Doppler spread is too high, you can do some kind of channel estimation.
[13:42] <Darkside> well doppler sprad isnt such an issue for MFSK
[13:43] <Darkside> not unless the doppler spread approaches your tone spacing
[13:43] <Darkside> in which case you're having a really bad day anyway
[13:43] <ak4rp> unless you want to exploit your channel estimates for a reasonable time span :)
[13:43] <Darkside> yeah from my experience with HF, i doubt the estimates woudl be useful for more than a few hundred ms
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[13:44] <Darkside> see, the way around this problem on HF (in most cases) is USE MORE POWER
[13:44] <Darkside> thats how the military do it anyway >_>
[13:44] <Darkside> all these wonderful high bit-rate stanag modems that need a >20dB SNR
[13:45] <ak4rp> brute force almost always helps
[13:45] <Darkside> yup
[13:45] <ak4rp> but increasing M helps, too
[13:45] <Darkside> for low power the solution is FEC FEC FEC
[13:45] <Darkside> yes, at the cost of bandwidth
[13:45] <ak4rp> do the BER testing framework for fldigi, that would be awesome
[13:45] <Darkside> mm
[13:46] <Darkside> it requires delving into each of the modems and extracting a raw bitstream
[13:46] <Darkside> not a fun job
[13:46] <fsphil> fldigi is becoming a lost cause
[13:46] <ak4rp> what is the alternative?
[13:47] <Darkside> MixW lawl
[13:47] <Darkside> (joke)
[13:47] <fsphil> lol
[13:47] <fsphil> multipsk naturally
[13:47] <Darkside> MultiPSK! (hahaha)
[13:47] <Darkside> hahahahahaha
[13:47] <Darkside> god the gui on that program is atrocious
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[13:50] <Darkside> im also not sure how i can do uncoded BER tests on modems like MFSK, which use soft decisions
[13:50] <fsphil> it's the mr.bean method of UI design. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EalqlDjTnPw
[13:50] <Darkside> fsphil: paint can + explosiv?
[13:50] <Darkside> yup
[13:50] <fsphil> got it in one lol
[13:50] <ak4rp> what is the problem with that?
[13:51] <ak4rp> you can do hard decisions yourself
[13:51] <ak4rp> can't you?
[13:52] <Darkside> yah of course
[13:52] <Darkside> i guess that'll test the symbol sync
[13:52] <Darkside> hrm
[13:52] <Darkside> oh well, worth a try anyway
[13:52] <ak4rp> it's time for lunch, sorry for hijacking the conversation :)
[13:53] <Darkside> no probs, was fun
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[13:59] <mikestir> anyone familiar with SPOT? I got roped into writing up a report for the school - something to do with their funding for wggs1. need to consider and reject alternative tracking technologies
[14:00] <Darkside> SPOT doesnt work when the unit is upside down
[14:00] <mikestir> looks like it's about £150 for the tracker plus one year's service, and it sends location every 10 minutes by email?
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[14:00] <Darkside> it also doesnt report altitude
[14:00] <Darkside> and the GPS inside them doesnt work >18km
[14:00] <Darkside> iirc
[14:01] <Darkside> that alone rules it out for anything other than a backup
[14:01] <mikestir> ok
[14:01] <mikestir> what about service costs?
[14:01] <Darkside> no idea
[14:02] <mikestir> looks like it's paid for the first year
[14:02] <LeoBodnar> somebody launched a pumpkin and proved SPOT works upside down
[14:02] <LeoBodnar> not necessarily in this order
[14:03] <mikestir> I'll blame it on trees instead
[14:04] <mikestir> the message from this part of the report will be firmly "just use a radio tracker"
[14:06] <LeoBodnar> but that was just an isolated case
[14:06] <mikestir> why can companies not just tell you how much stuff costs these days</rant>
[14:06] <mikestir> *can't
[14:07] <mikestir> I have to wade through reams of marketing guff
[14:09] <LeoBodnar> and the email for quote
[14:12] <mikestir> hehe, or if talking to a distributor's sales guy the usual question is "what are you paying now?"
[14:12] <mikestir> yeah like I'm going to tell you that
[14:13] <LeoBodnar> I love Microchip quote request process with "target price" stage
[14:13] <LeoBodnar> I always put "free" there
[14:13] <Darkside> haha
[14:14] <LeoBodnar> always get back what is quoted on the website anyway for this price break
[14:14] <LeoBodnar> pointless
[14:14] <LeoBodnar> but without requesting a quote you can't buy at 1000pcs price break
[14:15] <LeoBodnar> even if you put 1000pcs you get 100pcs price
[14:15] <LeoBodnar> then you request a quote for 1000pcs and it unlocks this price break
[14:16] <LeoBodnar> then you can buy a single IC at 1000pcs pricing
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[14:16] <LeoBodnar> does anybody understands [lack of] thinking behind this?
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[14:17] <LeoBodnar> oh, if you requested 1000pcs quote you can't buy 1001 pcs, it closes the quote after 1000
[14:18] <LeoBodnar> I need to ask them what it all means
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[14:18] <LeoBodnar> Their online direct chief came over the other day
[14:19] <LeoBodnar> We spent the rest of the day talking about balloons and his quadcopter FPV flights
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[14:20] <LeoBodnar> which has nothing to do with neither of our companies business
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[14:38] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: is the silabs pll coherent during frequency transitions?
[14:38] <Laurenceb_> im guessing yes?
[14:38] <Laurenceb_> should try this with my hardware....
[14:39] <Laurenceb_> im wondering if you could transmit a PRN type sequence using it and correlate at the ground sucessfully
[14:40] <Laurenceb_> bbl
[14:41] <LeoBodnar> yes Laurenceb_
[14:41] <LeoBodnar> 2FSK?
[14:42] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[14:42] <LeoBodnar> doable I think
[14:42] <Laurenceb_> so tx a "ranging tone"
[14:42] <Laurenceb_> ok
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[14:42] <Laurenceb_> yeah, my doppler tracking works for simulated launch over the north sea and receiver in UK
[14:43] <LeoBodnar> cool need to test
[14:43] <Laurenceb_> but the error is fairly large on peak altitude, ~+-500m for +-5ppb oscillator drift over apogee
[14:43] <Laurenceb_> ranging tone would probably be better
[14:43] <LeoBodnar> reverse GPS with ranging tone?
[14:43] <Laurenceb_> (this is for rockoons)
[14:43] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[14:44] <LeoBodnar> habitat can do reverse GPS calcs
[14:44] <LeoBodnar> so GPS based local transmitter with 1PPS locked reference PRN?
[14:45] <LeoBodnar> for each receiver
[14:46] <LeoBodnar> or somehow an edge of 1PPS signal mixed into the RX
[14:46] <LeoBodnar> so each RX station calculates exact offset of the HAB PRN vs 1PPS reference
[14:47] <LeoBodnar> so yo can line up pseudoranges from receivers
[14:47] <LeoBodnar> is that the plan?
[14:48] <LeoBodnar> and altitude via baro
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[14:50] <LeoBodnar> I think this needs simultaneous on-the-air timing reference due to unpredictable nature of RX chain delay
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[14:50] <LeoBodnar> therefore a GPS 1PPS mixed into the RX signal over the air
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[14:54] <Laurenceb_> i was thinking a prn from a "dumb" tx
[14:54] <Laurenceb_> then a separately launched balloon with an identical tx unit and also normal telemetry
[14:55] <Laurenceb_> then at least 4 receivers using funcube/dvbt dongles
[14:55] <LeoBodnar> why two?
[14:55] <LeoBodnar> you get pseudorange to the dumb one
[14:55] <Laurenceb_> so you can calculate a reference timebase
[14:55] <Laurenceb_> yes
[14:55] <Laurenceb_> bbl
[14:55] <LeoBodnar> ref timebase = 1PPS from local GPS
[14:55] <LeoBodnar> but it must to be sent via RF
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[14:55] <LeoBodnar> -to
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[14:56] <LeoBodnar> if all these 1PPS->RF devices are identical then their internal delays don't matter
[14:57] <LeoBodnar> as they cancel out (embedded offset in pseudoiranges )
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[15:36] <Maxell> Once again, insane amount of trackers!
[15:37] <Oddstr13> 21 o.o
[15:41] <Oddstr13> whaa? one from the UK?
[15:41] <Oddstr13> EI3HMB is listed among the receivers at one point ._.
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[15:42] <ibanezmatt13> Just ran a camera test. The batteries got so hot the camera turned off! You can't squeese the batteries without burning yourself. Could have an issue here
[15:43] <Oddstr13> ..probably ._.
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[15:43] <Oddstr13> camera might be attempting to draw way too much current for the batteries to handle
[15:44] <ibanezmatt13> sounds like it yeah, I thought the Energizer L91s could cope though
[15:44] <Maxell> Oddstr13: I presume globaltuners test or something similar
[15:45] <Oddstr13> :o
[15:45] <ibanezmatt13> since the electronics are in a separate sealed compartment to the cam, I might add some sort of air channel to expose the part of the camera with the batteries in. Even the camera case becomes really warm
[15:47] <Oddstr13> ibanezmatt13: do check how much current it draws
[15:47] <Oddstr13> if it is drawing way more than expected, it could be a short, or a near-short somewhere
[15:48] <ibanezmatt13> I guess I could add the multimeter in between the two batteries in series
[15:48] <Maxell> Oddstr13: most recievers at the same time: SQ5NWI, SQ5AAG-IC, SP6RYD, SQ9UU, SQ9CWT, SP5ULN, SP4MPH, SQ9KEJ, SQ4FAF, SQ5IZJ, SQ5AAG-TS, SQ5FLG, SQ6IYD, SQ4KDK, SQ5KGV, SP7HGT, SP8CGR, EI3HMB, SP9UOB, SP6CC, SQ5ALQ, SP5NVX, SQ9ONI, SQ6NDM, SP5MG and SQ3MQD
[15:52] <Oddstr13> that's 26 o.o
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[15:53] <Oddstr13> is there a API to access the data from spacenear.us?
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[15:54] <ibanezmatt13> You can get payload data from Habitat live through JSON i believe
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[15:55] <Maxell> Oddstr13: yeah, ibanezmatt13 is talking about http://habitat.habhub.org/ept/
[15:56] <ibanezmatt13> yeah that's the one
[15:56] <ibanezmatt13> Oddstr13, https://github.com/ibanezmatt13/Paddy_Power/blob/master/trigger.py
[15:57] <Oddstr13> thanks ^^
[15:57] <ibanezmatt13> Python script to constantly get altitude data and another field of data from a specific payload
[16:01] <DL1SGP> good day and happy weekend dear hab-fellows :)
[16:02] <ibanezmatt13> good day Felix, bad weather though
[16:02] <ibanezmatt13> Ok, so I've checked the current flow on the battery when it's recording video in HD: 0.8A. Now that's not enough to cause problems with the batteries surely. I can't work out what's going on! :P
[16:03] <DL1SGP> ibanezmatt13: we got rain at 3c melting away the snow
[16:03] <SP9UOB-Tom> well preety cold up there
[16:04] <DL1SGP> Hi SP9UOB-Tom
[16:04] <SP9UOB-Tom> hi
[16:04] <DL1SGP> we had -3.8c yesterday
[16:05] <ibanezmatt13> Interesting. So batteries get burning hot at 0.8A of current for an hour... I can't think of what to do with this damn camera
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[16:10] <mikestir> use more cells and a switch mode regulator to reduce current?
[16:11] <ibanezmatt13> mm, not easy really. I'd have designed my own PSU for it had I been able to take it apart. Canon Powershot camera, takes 2 AAs.
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[16:12] <mikestir> we used a powershot of some description on wggs1 - it was ok
[16:12] <ibanezmatt13> how did you get into it? :)
[16:12] <mikestir> similar sort of current iirc
[16:12] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: seen scrolback?
[16:12] <LeoBodnar> +l
[16:12] <mikestir> didn't. just put the batteries in
[16:12] <ibanezmatt13> yeah really strange
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[16:13] <LeoBodnar> SP9UOB-Tom: Vbat and temperature flatlined, is this significant? http://x-f.lv/dev/habitat-graphs/payload/faaff226bae495ba4f27e70489cea626#g/battery,temperature,altitude
[16:16] <ibanezmatt13> reckon I should do another test mikestir with two new batts?
[16:17] <LeoBodnar> can you test with a PSU + current meter?
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[16:18] <ibanezmatt13> I've tested with the multi meter the current is 0.8A. It's a bit of a pain since I can't get to the terminals inside the camera without putting the AAs in
[16:18] <mikestir> tbh I never checked for heating. I just measured current for a battery life estimate. It might have been cooking, but it did work fine
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[16:19] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah, the heat doesn't bother me, I just need to work out why it just turned off with plenty memory left. It worked again after I let the batts cool
[16:19] <LeoBodnar> it probably has a temperature cutoff
[16:19] <ibanezmatt13> that's a possibility yeah
[16:19] <mikestir> are you using chdk?
[16:19] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[16:20] <LeoBodnar> in a consumer design it's probably a must
[16:20] <mikestir> maybe an issue with chdk on that specific model?
[16:21] <ibanezmatt13> I'm not sure, I've had three hours out of it once on the same type of batteries. They too got hot but it didn't shut down. You might be right
[16:22] <LeoBodnar> get batteries out of the camera maybe?
[16:22] <ibanezmatt13> I think the ultimate solution is to do that yeah. If I could get to those flaming terminals, I'd have had a whole switchmode PSU for it :/
[16:22] <mikestir> make dummy batteries out of dowel
[16:22] <ibanezmatt13> I've considered dummy batteries
[16:22] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[16:23] <ibanezmatt13> I sort of disregarded dummy batteries, but now it's becoming more apparent they might actually be a good idea
[16:25] <LeoBodnar> switchmode why?
[16:26] <ibanezmatt13> I have one readily available in my room. No real reason, if I could just get two batteries outside of the camera, that might do the trick.
[16:28] <ibanezmatt13> mikestir, no harm in having a go at making some dummy batteries I guess. We have dowells
[16:29] <ibanezmatt13> Could just wrap it in gaffer tape to give it a more fitting thickness in the holder.
[16:33] <ibanezmatt13> I could try making a cutout in the box for the actual batteries and make a small air duct on the bottom too to help dissipate the heat.
[16:35] <SP9UOB-Tom> LeoBodnar: i think that temperature was below sensor scale
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[16:46] <ibanezmatt13> LeoBodnar, According to Canon, max operating temperature is 40C :/
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[16:46] <ibanezmatt13> Those batteries were at least 60C, the case was over 40C
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[16:47] <LeoBodnar> sounds sensible for consumer product. 60C is burning to the touch
[16:48] <ibanezmatt13> it was :)
[16:48] <ibanezmatt13> So basically, it's either get those batteries away from the Cam or record up until I let go of it...
[16:49] <SP9UOB-Tom> oh, got ice i think
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[17:01] <ibanezmatt13> On a serious note, mikestir, do you think using hot glue sticks as the dummy battery shell would be a bad idea? :) They wouldn't get hot at all anyway if the batteries are sepearate as there's just be a wire going through them. Nice fit, easy to cut and has a bit of squidge to help them fit in :P
[17:02] <mikestir> hmmm. could be messy!
[17:02] <ibanezmatt13> I might have just topped the record for most stupid thing ever said in IRC
[17:02] <ibanezmatt13> could be, but at least if they do melt you know the wire won't come out :P
[17:03] <ibanezmatt13> Yea, I'll stick to dowels
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[17:31] <mikestir> I seem to be getting quite a few WSPR reports from aus today. has anyone ever tried WSPR from a hab?
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[18:58] <DL7AD> good evening.
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[19:02] <DL7AD> does anyone know something about atmega's signatures?
[19:06] <mfa298> if you mean the signature bytes you get out of them there's a pdf that describes them in the atmel library.
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[19:20] <nosebleedkt> YO
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[19:23] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[19:23] <DL7AD> mfa298: yeah and you can find them out from avrdude. but my problem is, that my atmega328 is responding other signatures everytime when i try to access it.
[19:24] <DL7AD> everytime a different from that before....
[19:27] <SP9UOB-Tom> http://www.balloonchallenge.org/
[19:29] <jcoxon> SP9UOB-Tom, never heard of that
[19:29] <jcoxon> not particularly global
[19:30] <jcoxon> :-)
[19:31] <craag> "We recommend using the SPOT GPS as it is very reliable and easy to use."
[19:31] <craag> hah
[19:32] <jcoxon> its a nice idea
[19:32] <SP9UOB-Tom> jcoxon: just saw it on facebook
[19:33] <jcoxon> SP9UOB-Tom, thanks for the link
[19:33] <SP9UOB-Tom> LITHUANA wake up! I need Your antennas ! :-)
[19:33] <jcoxon> SP9UOB-Tom, not sure how much longer it'll be in the air :-(
[19:34] <SP9UOB-Tom> jcoxon: im suspecting icing - not leak
[19:35] <jcoxon> fair enough
[19:35] <jcoxon> it is a slow descent
[19:36] <DL1SGP2> I would bring up my rig Tom but I am not in Lithuania :D
[19:37] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL1SGP2: ;-)
[19:37] <LeoBodnar> "outreach" means Alt+F4 on Windows and Cmd+W on a Mac
[19:38] <LeoBodnar> BS bingo
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[19:39] <LeoBodnar> "GPS: We recommend using the SPOT GPS as it is very reliable and easy to use." bollox
[19:40] <gurgalof> I would rather use shortwave radio for tracking where there is no trackers, like russia
[19:41] <SP9UOB-Tom> gurgalof: i did that :-)
[19:41] <DL1SGP2> LeoBodnar: "it is very reliable and easy to use" as in "there are 2 states of operation: working and not working"
[19:42] <jcoxon> DL1SGP2, well there is the more common state - not sure if its working or not
[19:42] <craag> jcoxon: I think that counts as 'not working'
[19:42] <gurgalof> it (!working) {printf("shiiiit")}
[19:42] <LeoBodnar> As in "it is very easy to rely on it not to work."
[19:42] <jcoxon> craag, well its a bit schrodinger's cat
[19:43] <DL1SGP2> jcoxon: that is a state in the expert menu, not documented on the standard operators manual
[19:43] <LeoBodnar> it's cloud of probability
[19:43] <LeoBodnar> +a
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[19:44] <craag> errrm " including hard plastic or aluminum boxes"
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[19:44] <craag> I'm not sure I'd recommend an aluminium box for a payload
[19:44] <LeoBodnar> or uncertainty principle: at exact time you get unknown position or you get exact position at the time you don't need
[19:44] <craag> let alone an aluminum one :P
[19:45] <LeoBodnar> trollsite lol
[19:45] <mikestir> so... how about a 13.5 MHz ISM band WSPR tracker. who fancies that?
[19:46] <jcoxon> mikestir, its very noisey on 13.5mhz
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[19:46] <LeoBodnar> well Domino 4 on it was a failure
[19:46] <mikestir> is it significantly different to 20m?
[19:46] <daveake> SPOT = Sometimes Perfect Otherwise Trouble
[19:46] <mikestir> or is it just noisy because it's an ism band?
[19:47] <LeoBodnar> ah, yes. massive qrm from wireless card scanners
[19:47] <LeoBodnar> you end up tracking Waitroses
[19:48] <LeoBodnar> also antenna is a bit of strangulation hazard
[19:50] <mikestir> death by hanging from magnetic loop
[19:51] <DL7AD> finished my new tracker today :) https://raw.github.com/DL7AD/pecan_femto/master/femto1/revision3/IMG_20140131_214330.jpg
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[19:55] <nats`> mikestir you can try 13.5 just use a 1MW inductor oven :D
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[19:59] <LeoBodnar> Oh, Femto can do Olivia?
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[20:00] <DL7AD> LeoBodnar: yes when if i would have it programmed already. but you should be able to do it with the VCXO
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[20:01] <DL7AD> *if i would have programmed it alreay
[20:02] <DL7AD> but currently i got a problem. i recognized i ordered a 16mhz instead of a 8mhz crystal. and running it at 3.3v will not be possible
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[20:04] <mikestir> DL7AD: atmega?
[20:04] <DL7AD> mikestir: yep
[20:04] <mikestir> I think you're ok if you use the prescaler
[20:04] <mikestir> depends if the oscillator will run
[20:05] <DL7AD> mikestir: i did nothing yet. first thing i tried saying hello to it. but it everytime respond with another id
[20:06] <mikestir> something else corrupting the spi bus?
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[20:08] <DL7AD> mikestir: not on purpose
[20:09] <DL7AD> mikestir: is it possible to slow down the SPI?
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[20:10] <mikestir> for programming it's your programmer that provides the clock so it will depend on that. I think the real AVR-ISP has an option to turn it down
[20:10] <DL7AD> http://i.imgur.com/spfNsNN.png
[20:11] <qyx_> DL7AD: try -B 20
[20:11] <qyx_> if using avrdude
[20:11] <DL7AD> qyx_: second....
[20:11] <mikestir> are you using the spi bus to talk to the transmitter?
[20:12] <DL7AD> bingo :P thanks qyx_
[20:12] <qyx_> avr's ship by default with 1MHz clock which is too slow for fast programmers
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[20:42] <LeoBodnar> interesting perturbations http://waas.stanford.edu/papers/TylerReid_L1_L5_SBASMOPSEphemerisMessage4MultipleOrbitClasses_ITM2013_paper.pdf
[20:52] <arko> Molniya 3-53 groundtrack
[20:52] <arko> that i've never seen
[20:52] <arko> how weird
[20:52] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[20:52] <LeoBodnar> During orbital insertion, the Ariane 5 launch vehicle experienced a problem which resulted in Artemis being placed in a lower orbit than desired. Some clever engineering saved the satellite and placed it in nearly the required orbit, though this left the spacecraft low on fuel for orbit maintenance and station-keeping.
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> The result is that Artemis is now in a GSO which is inclined to over 10 degrees with respect to the equator. This is enough to put the satellite outside of the dynamic range of the current MT 9 ECEF z-component (Figure 4) during certain parts of its orbit and thus cannot be used for ranging.
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> Nicely explained for once
[20:54] <arko> neat
[20:57] <LeoBodnar> So basically current ephemeris structure of the SBAS message is too small for actual orbit parameters
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[21:06] <LeoBodnar> shame
[21:10] <Laurenceb_> [11:10] <LeoBodnar> I have estimated it to be something within a minute
[21:10] <Laurenceb_> seems abotu right to me
[21:11] <Laurenceb_> you want the satellite to have travelled less than 300Km
[21:11] <Laurenceb_> well - that divided by a fair bit
[21:11] <LeoBodnar> 150Km more like
[21:12] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:12] <Laurenceb_> factor of 2
[21:12] <Laurenceb_> then a factor for geometery and stuff
[21:12] <Laurenceb_> 1 minute should be fine
[21:12] <LeoBodnar> as in 1/2 bit it starts getting closer to the other edge
[21:12] <Laurenceb_> yes
[21:12] <Laurenceb_> cheap and nasty RTC should be fine
[21:12] <LeoBodnar> this is precise scientific definition
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[21:14] <LeoBodnar> tempting
[21:14] <LeoBodnar> I have very strong signature of a few satellites and zilch of the others
[21:14] <LeoBodnar> I think my 1/4wave stick is not omni
[21:15] <SP9UOB-Tom> LeoBodnar: i cand send You QFH from vaisala radiosonde if You wish :)
[21:16] <SP9UOB-Tom> can
[21:16] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: my "reverse gps"/doppler idea was for rockoon tracking
[21:17] <Laurenceb_> otherwise "silly" ideas like a second reference balloon arent so impractical
[21:17] <LeoBodnar> cheers Tom. Is it RH polarised one?
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[21:18] <LeoBodnar> What do you think about referencing all RX to 1PPS GPS locally?
[21:19] <SP9UOB-Tom> LeoBodnar: yes
[21:19] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: that would work, but needs custom ground stations
[21:20] <Laurenceb_> doppler doesnt need a reference or custom hardware
[21:20] <Laurenceb_> but its limited by the TCXO drift
[21:20] <LeoBodnar> we need 5-6 ranging stations in UK and then you can make £5 balloons with nanowatt energy consumptions
[21:21] <Laurenceb_> pseudorange can get ~100m error compared to ~500 from doppler
[21:21] <Laurenceb_> heh
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[21:22] <LeoBodnar> just a dumb PRN transmitter
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> whats the best bet for a pcb mount cell?
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> i was thinking one of the CR2032 lithiums
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> they can do ~100mA and weight 2.5grams
[21:23] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[21:23] <LeoBodnar> there are ones with solder lugs
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> yes
[21:23] <LeoBodnar> usually holder is heavier than battery
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> it would need to withstand 100G at launch
[21:23] <adwiens_KC0WYS> CR1/3N are better for higher drain currents
[21:23] <adwiens_KC0WYS> same mass as CR2032 (3g)
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> interesting, thanks
[21:24] <adwiens_KC0WYS> they are harder to find with solder lugs but they exist
[21:24] <Laurenceb_> http://uk.farnell.com/varta/6131201501/battery-lithium-cr1-3n-170mah-3v/dp/1781983
[21:24] <Laurenceb_> not bad
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[21:24] <Laurenceb_> whole tracker needs to be <5grams
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[21:24] <Laurenceb_> i was thinking 868mhz chip antenna
[21:24] <gonzo__> a similar solution was used for triangulating the HF ionospheric sweeper TX stations
[21:25] Nick change: a -> Guest22946
[21:25] <gonzo__> they had a stereo PC sound card input, one chan on the HF RX and the iother sniffing the clicks from a 1pps
[21:25] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[21:26] <gonzo__> they were able to locate the TX to the rough part of the country
[21:26] <Laurenceb_> arg but that varta thing is high ESR
[21:26] <craag> I wonder how much jitter you'd get from an fcdpp
[21:27] <craag> Onto a PC with a pps-disciplined clock.
[21:27] <craag> Perhaps reading the raw data and bypassing the soundcard drivers.
[21:27] <adwiens_KC0WYS> Laurenceb_: I tested a CR1/3N at -15C pulling 32mA pulses http://adwiens.com/projects/balloons/batt/index.html
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[21:28] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[21:29] <Laurenceb_> http://www.powerstream.com/p/Lir2032.pdf
[21:30] <adwiens_KC0WYS> I'v seen some of those, but once you factor in the cold won't you get only about 20 mAh?
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> its going to be insulated well
[21:31] <LeoBodnar> mixing the reference onto the signal on air solves all the problems
[21:31] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[21:31] <LeoBodnar> if reference is repeatable across all RXers
[21:32] <LeoBodnar> sub-usec accuracy is achievable
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[21:37] <Laurenceb_> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CMOS-SOLDER-TAB-TERMINAL-RECHARGEABLE-BATTERY-CELL-LIR2032-UK3-6V-PCB-CLOCK-BIOS-/290854438643?pt=UK_Computing_LaptopsAccessories_LaptopBatteries&hash=item43b84686f3
[21:37] <Laurenceb_> perfect
[21:41] <gonzo__> craag, the chirpsounder rx systems were done by g3plx and g0tjz
[21:42] <gonzo__> soem info at http://www.jcoppens.com/radio/prop/g3plx/system.en.php
[21:42] <gonzo__> but there is prob more out there
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[22:44] <SP9UOB-Tom> DL7AD_: do You have any contacts in latvia, lithuana :-) ?
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[23:06] <nats`> night boyz :)
[23:07] <jededu> good evening
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[23:11] <jededu> Does anybody make a ready to go pico board
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[23:14] <adwiens_KC0WYS> jededu: I could be wrong, but I don't think anybody does at the moment
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[23:16] <jededu> thought so thanks
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[23:21] <LeoBodnar> SP3OSJ has been flogging his ware on eBay
[23:22] <LeoBodnar> "his" is fuzzy
[23:23] <jededu> who knows about parachutes
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[23:25] <LeoBodnar> http://www.ebay.pl/itm/Tracker-RTTY-Kit-/171185843998?#ht_57wt_1057
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[23:26] <Laurenceb_> <adwiens_KC0WYS> yo, i remeber you used to hang out here ages ago?
[23:26] <Laurenceb_> like 2006?
[23:27] <Laurenceb_> this looks familiar http://adwiens.com/projects/ensure/1/index.html
[23:32] <Laurenceb_> heh LeoBodnar
[23:32] <Laurenceb_> "inb4 flamewar"
[23:32] <LeoBodnar> lol been there b4
[23:34] <LeoBodnar> have you wired up your frontend yet?
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[23:35] <LeoBodnar> how much using MAG bit would help? Extra 3dB?
[23:36] <Laurenceb_> maybe
[23:36] <Laurenceb_> yeah ill wire up my frontend... next week
[23:36] <Laurenceb_> hopefully
[23:41] <adwiens_KC0WYS> Laurenceb_: ya, long time ago!
[23:41] <Laurenceb_> congrats on getting into Georgia Tech
[23:42] <adwiens_KC0WYS> haha thanks!
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[00:00] --- Sun Feb 2 2014