highaltitude.log.20140130

[00:00] <jededu> Birmingham
[00:00] <jededu> :)
[00:00] <jededu> uk
[00:00] <gonzo__> even if you are not, you can just choose one to monitor. In reality you may be too busy on the chase for much more.
[00:00] <jededu> true
[00:00] <gonzo__> we have an excellent network of listeners in the uk
[00:01] <gonzo__> some flights I've seen up to 40 stations
[00:01] <jededu> cant wait to get going
[00:01] <jededu> 40 !
[00:01] <gonzo__> most stations i've seen receive one single packet, was i think well over 20
[00:02] <gonzo__> when the weather improves and flights are on, especially at weekends, the spacenearus map is littered with icons
[00:03] <gonzo__> monitoring other peoples flights is good practice.
[00:03] <gonzo__> for your own flight
[00:04] <jededu> should be interesting im building the base station now so will do some monotoring as you say good practice
[00:05] <jededu> we have the hab software sorted
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[00:07] <jededu> im going for june
[00:09] <gonzo__> you will find that you are so busy with the logistics, that trying to drive the receive/decode system needs to be second nature.
[00:09] <gonzo__> ideally you want someone dedicated to that,
[00:10] <jededu> thats the plan i sort of got carried away with the pi stuff and ignored the rest
[00:12] <jededu> I have a team of 5 teachers all willing and mostly able
[00:12] <gonzo__> a team is good. I've tried almost single handed. Not ideal
[00:13] <gonzo__> foil pico launches are good though, as you can prepare them at leisure indoors and just walk them outside when you are ready
[00:15] <jededu> Ive seen them but havent taken much interest what altitude /payload
[00:16] <gonzo__> a few km altitude. If you can get the payload very light, I think we have seen 7km? But they can float a hell of a distance following the weather.
[00:17] <gonzo__> you can't fly much payload, usuallu only a simple tracking beacon
[00:17] <jededu> good for practice tho
[00:18] <gonzo__> mine are pretty heavy, at 30gm. But Leo's are about 12gm. So he has managed some great flights
[00:18] <gonzo__> yep, they are
[00:19] <gonzo__> and you are not tied to a notam, so can launch whenever the conditions are right. (Or fit in with the pupils being available)
[00:20] <gonzo__> they also only use a small vol of gas, so you can use the small disposable bottles. So no difficult logistics and bottle hire.
[00:22] <jededu> no notam interesting im going to have to investigate further now im on another thought track how can i build a micro transmitter ;)
[00:23] <jededu> while trying to get my head around funcube
[00:27] <jededu> £4 :)
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[00:28] <jededu> did you still use the NTX2
[00:28] <gonzo__> yep, I use the ntx2 and gps module from upu
[00:29] <gonzo__> with a small PIC to generate the telemerty. And three AAA lithuim batteries.
[00:29] <gonzo__> Not the lightest way of doing it, but simple
[00:30] <jededu> another order going in then
[00:30] <jededu> i have got to try this
[00:31] <jededu> whats the mah on the batteries
[00:31] <gonzo__> two 36" foil balloons, tied at the neck will fit within the CAA limit of 2mtrs sphere. (Above that size you need a NOTAM)
[00:32] <gonzo__> without a notam, just needs some common sense in launching. Not overflying airports etc.
[00:33] <gonzo__> I forget the battery rating. Look up energisrt L92 and L92, there are datasheets
[00:33] <gonzo__> energiser
[00:33] <gonzo__> the solid lithiums are great. work well at low temps and about half the weight of alkaline
[00:34] <jededu> what are lipoly like at altitude
[00:34] <gonzo__> not good at low temps I understand
[00:35] <gonzo__> but you can manage that in a bigger payload, especially with a Pi or similar
[00:35] <gonzo__> as getting rid of heat is the issue in a near vacuum
[00:36] <gonzo__> though not sure what the pressure would do to a lipo?
[00:36] <gonzo__> others in here may have more idea
[00:36] <gonzo__> must get kip
[00:36] <gonzo__> gn all
[00:36] <jededu> Ive had 2 go pop
[00:36] <jededu> me too
[00:36] <jededu> gn
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[00:43] <WillTablet> Good morning all
[00:44] <WillTablet> Just got back from the lion king and it was fabulous
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[01:46] <SpeedEvil> I am reminded of the line as aoo announcement.
[01:47] <SpeedEvil> 'Would the parents of the young girl who fell into the lion enclosure please come to lost property to collecther shoes.'
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[02:08] <kd2eat> Heya... does anyone who's built boards with an Si446x have experience with them being off frequency. I've built two boards. One is dead-on, but the other appears to be about 10khz off. Just trying to understand what's typical.
[02:09] <SpeedEvil> On an unrelated topic - I've had http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2MP-USB-digital-microscope-loupe-magnifier-webcam-endoscope-with-Metal-stand-UK-/191001311232?pt=UK_BOI_Medical_Lab_Equipment_Lab_Equipment_ET&hash=item2c7890b800 for a while now, and it's awesome.
[02:09] <SpeedEvil> Highly recommended
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[02:41] <aadamson> I answered this directly from kd2eat... there is a 10k/10k voltage divider that is the last part of the pwm chain on the VC pin of the VCXO, if those arent .1 or .01% resistors, the VC voltage won't be vcc/2 and the resulting vcxo output frequency won't be what it should be... and hence an offset in frequency output of the si4463 (this whe uses in a vcxo fashion with pwm modulating the vcxo for FM)
[02:42] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[02:43] <KT5TK> True, but it is possible to correct for the mid frequency in software.
[02:43] <aadamson> yeah all those *little* things you learn when messing with this stuff.
[02:44] <aadamson> Btw Thomas feel free to cherry pick my stm32 code (it's the same as your avr code, there are a handful of changes that si now recommends (some not documented) when using a vcxo...
[02:44] <aadamson> code link coming
[02:45] <aadamson> KT5TK, https://github.com/akadamson/STM32F3-SiRadio/blob/master/src/drv/drv_si446x.c
[02:45] <aadamson> the *reset* function should have most of it
[02:45] <KT5TK> Nice. Thanks.
[02:45] <aadamson> and you probably saw my post on your blog about the IRQ pin setup for CTS that was incorrect
[02:46] <aadamson> oh and one other note... there needs to be a 15ms delay between sdn flip to boot and the first command attempted (or the first one will always fail - in your case its not an issue it's just the part info command)
[02:46] <aadamson> but the delay wasn't there
[02:47] <aadamson> the hidden function is that global config 1 that is referenced.
[02:47] <aadamson> Also when using a vcxo (and I've not done this yet) there is a new POKE command that is supposed to be used.
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[02:48] <aadamson> KT5TK, http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/AN785.pdf see page 6
[02:48] <KT5TK> Yes, I'll fix that in my code asap. I have just made a very little Pecan and sent it off to the PCB manufacturer:
[02:48] <KT5TK> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5676413/PecanPico3Sch.pdf
[02:48] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[02:48] <aadamson> here is mine mates to a pro mini or my f3 mini - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/DSCN2416.JPG
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[02:49] <aadamson> nice work btw!!! and your lfp for 144 is dead on.
[02:49] <aadamson> here's the qucs version of it, cutoff at 200mhz - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/qucs-144filtergraph.png
[02:50] <aadamson> Also as reference... it's only 20ma of current difference between shutdown and sleep mode, and the processor functions about 100% faster and better if coming out of sleep vs shutdown... I've been meaning to modify my code to do that
[02:50] <KT5TK> Have you measured it with a network analyzer? Or just calculated?
[02:51] <aadamson> just calculated it on qucs
[02:51] <aadamson> oh, one other comment... did you see we figure out how to make XIN work
[02:51] <aadamson> just make sure it's between .8 and 1.6v and use that 100pf cap divider and it will work just fine
[02:51] <KT5TK> You noted this on a comment on my wordpress site.
[02:52] <aadamson> I modified my board and another in NY did same
[02:52] <aadamson> also, you then must turn off the internal capacitance (or you'll get a frequency offset)
[02:52] <aadamson> see my reset for that command
[02:52] <aadamson> did you do a network analyzer plot of your lpf?
[02:52] <KT5TK> OK. Have you tried to do modulation this way?
[02:53] <aadamson> yes, it all works fine.
[02:53] <KT5TK> Yes, I used an old one. But it's broken now.
[02:53] <aadamson> I'm running 281khz pwm with 100khz sample clock and 1200/2200 tones on XIN and everything works perfectly
[02:53] <aadamson> finally got my signal to look right.
[02:53] <aadamson> it's what led me down all these paths of correct chip setup, using XIN etc.
[02:54] <KT5TK> No I meant modulating with the internal caps of the Si
[02:54] <aadamson> oh, and you can look but if you use a 560 ohm resistor instead of the 330 on the PWM pass band, it will center up the passband a little more towards the middle of 1200/2200
[02:54] <aadamson> I tried the internal caps on and off and in the end, left them off
[02:55] <KT5TK> You could do FM this way, possibly
[02:55] <KT5TK> so that you dn't need a VCXO, just a crystal
[02:55] <aadamson> here is the qucs of the pwm lpf, cutoff at about 4.5khz - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/qucs-pwmlpf.png
[02:56] <aadamson> which is ok, but with 31.5khz pwm it's not very good... at 281khz it's much better :)
[02:56] <aadamson> yeah I didn't try that... just turned them off per the si documentation... *ive NOT* done the POKE xosc_cfg change yet...
[02:56] <aadamson> I believe that modified an internal eeprom value
[02:57] <aadamson> btw, what does the pico 3 look like on board?
[02:58] <KT5TK> Very similar to Pico 4
[02:58] <KT5TK> Just missing a few extra components
[02:58] <aadamson> ah, ok, have very nice!
[02:59] <KT5TK> Sorry, I actually wanted to post the small PecanPico 6
[03:00] <aadamson> ah... I wondered...
[03:00] <KT5TK> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5676413/PecanPico6.brd.pdf
[03:00] <KT5TK> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5676413/PecanPico6.sch.pdf
[03:00] <aadamson> ah yes... much better :)
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[03:01] <aadamson> is that a BGA part?
[03:01] <aadamson> gps?
[03:01] <KT5TK> I ordered this PCB to get my remaining AMY6 used up
[03:01] <KT5TK> since they are no longer produced.
[03:02] <aadamson> oh, before I forget, is the trans crossing planned again
[03:02] <KT5TK> Possibly this Sunday
[03:02] <aadamson> oh, I'll have to watch spacenear then...
[03:02] <aadamson> that would be awesome
[03:03] <aadamson> I guess it will be *dark - no signals* for some/most of the crossing if successful?
[03:03] <KT5TK> Predictions look ok.
[03:03] <KT5TK> We may have chances it'll be heard in Iceland
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[03:04] <KT5TK> Not sure how much APRS they have up there.
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[03:04] <aadamson> all fm afsk, but with freq changes for iss and or geography?
[03:05] <KT5TK> Yes, I have that in my code for a while now.
[03:05] <KT5TK> And I've tested it by launching a pico in Europe.
[03:05] <KT5TK> It works automatically
[03:05] <aadamson> yes I saw that, so figured it would be happening that way... does aprs.fi somehow feed into spacenear or aprs directly?
[03:06] <KT5TK> It needst to be set up manually
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[03:06] <aadamson> ah... well hopefully someone will
[03:06] <KT5TK> but then it doesn't matter where and at what frequency
[03:07] <aadamson> a couple of weeks ago, I watch a UK HAB via websdr and fldigi, that was pretty cool... all live
[03:08] <KT5TK> Yeah, that works amazingly well.
[03:08] <aadamson> yes, they were using a new thor16 modulation on 433, worked really well from what I understood
[03:08] <KT5TK> We have remote controlled a rig from a friend in France from Houston
[03:09] <aadamson> ya gotta love the internet! :)
[03:09] <KT5TK> Yes, there are much better modes than APRS, but you need listeners in the first place.
[03:10] <aadamson> Anyway, many thanks for your efforts around the Si chip... I've been wanting to do this for sometime and finally got motivated to do it... yeah, we over here in the us are just stuck on 1200 baud afsk, 2mtr aprs - sadly
[03:11] <aadamson> hehe... *maybe we just need simple BOX* that people with repeaters with internet can drop in their sites...
[03:11] <aadamson> I've got 3 repeaters here in atlanta, all running NXDN and all have internet, it would be *really* easy to take a simple radio module and hook to a Pi or BBB and a simple small antenna on 433mhz and just plop in at each of my repeaters :)
[03:12] <aadamson> bet there are other sites that would/could do the same an poof, instant 433mhz network
[03:12] <KT5TK> Yes, I thought about designing a RTL dUSB dongle, just with a sensitive good quality front end.
[03:12] <aadamson> yep, that's all that would be needed
[03:13] <KT5TK> The RTL chips are a dollar each
[03:13] <aadamson> if *plug and play* it might be pretty easy, look at how much aprs/echolink/etc there are
[03:13] <aadamson> and Pi's or BBB's are just to plain easy to get operational as well... something to think about I guess
[03:13] <KT5TK> Just a good filter and a tuner with preamp on a single PCB
[03:14] <aadamson> yep
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[03:15] <aadamson> kd2eat, KT5TK is here on line, maybe he can help you with the low power of that board you have...
[03:16] <aadamson> I've got to run... Thomas, thanks again and I'll keep an eye out for Sunday
[03:16] <kd2eat> Oh thanks :-)
[03:16] <kd2eat> Hey Thomas.
[03:18] <kd2eat> I finally got one of our Ursus Minimus clones of PP4 running at full power. It's a tad off frequency, but aadamson suggests I might want higher tolerance 10k resistors on the bias going into the oscillator.
[03:18] <kd2eat> The other board I've got working is dead-on frequency, but is only making about 1mw of power. I've been through the output chain checking continuity, resistances on the inductors and such. Not seeing the problem.
[03:19] <kd2eat> I'm beginning to wonder if I've just fried the Si4463 chip. I'm running out of passives to swap.
[03:19] <KT5TK> Hi kd2eat. Did you populate the RX filters?
[03:19] <kd2eat> I did, on both boards.
[03:19] <KT5TK> You shouldn't do this.
[03:20] <KT5TK> because at 100 mW the circuit doesn't work
[03:20] <kd2eat> OK. I had considered popping the inductor and cap leading to the RX section and trying it.
[03:20] <KT5TK> You'd need PIN diode switches between RX and TX
[03:21] <KT5TK> It might only work at 10 mW
[03:21] <kd2eat> Ahh, OK.
[03:21] <aadamson> oh, yeah, I forgot that... I pulled all my RX parts :)
[03:21] <kd2eat> I'll pop the inductor and cap on the weak board, and see if that has an impact.
[03:21] <kd2eat> I wonder if that means my "good" board has a broken RX section. lol
[03:22] <kd2eat> I had looked at the pictures of your PP4 online and saw the RX section populated, so I just followed the picture.
[03:22] <KT5TK> OK, you might fix the center frequency by changing the cosine table in the software.
[03:23] <aadamson> move the center point?
[03:23] <kd2eat> OK. I thought I might just alter the programmed frequency by 10 khz to shift te whole thing over. lol
[03:23] <aadamson> that won't make any different cuz it will fight with the Voltage divider won't it?
[03:23] <KT5TK> Yes, it sometimes works, but the power output is significantly lower with the RX components on.
[03:24] <kd2eat> OK. I'll remove the RX parts on both boards.
[03:24] <KT5TK> Audio is DC coupled, so it has an effect
[03:25] <aadamson> http://www.meraman.com/htmls/en/sinTableOld.html I found a really great site for messing with pwm tables too btw
[03:26] <kd2eat> Do you think the RX section might be hammering my output power this badly? I'm showing like 1mw of output on that board.
[03:26] <KT5TK> aadamson Nice. I did this with a Libre Office spreadsheet
[03:27] <aadamson> yeah, it's much easier to use that website and it will generate the c code too :)
[03:27] <kd2eat> cool
[03:28] <KT5TK> 1mW is very low. So make sure you'll check all resistances to the ground at the LPF. Compare them to your other PCB
[03:28] <aadamson> I also did a spreadsheet, but it was much easier to just cut and paste
[03:29] <kd2eat> Yea. Agreed. Now that I have a working board, I can compare things better.
[03:29] <kd2eat> The chain of inductors in the LPF has the right resistance, as does the RF choke.
[03:29] <kd2eat> Can't really test the caps, other than confirming that one side is grounded, as appropriate.
[03:29] <aadamson> btw, just to get you going... a basic (FULL sized) PWM sin table is created with 512, 256, 127, 127 as the 4 box entries on that site.
[03:30] <aadamson> if you want a 50% version, enter 63 for the half-wave amplitude
[03:30] <KT5TK> The Meraman website doesn't accout for center shift though.
[03:30] <aadamson> that will downscale the table to 50%... Thomas's version is downscaled for 8% if I remember right
[03:30] <aadamson> yes it should.. try setting the waveform zero to something other than 127
[03:31] <aadamson> that should change the center to above or below mid, but you'll have to make sure you have the headroom, etc
[03:31] <KT5TK> Ah, Waveform Zero that is...
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[03:33] <aadamson> http://sim.okawa-denshi.jp/en/CRlowkeisan.htm - other reference material that I found helpful looking at various filters on line
[03:33] <aadamson> specifically there is a PWM version at the bottom of that page
[03:33] <aadamson> ok, now I've given out all my secrets :)
[03:34] <kd2eat> That's OK. I don't understand them in the slightest. lol
[03:34] <aadamson> it's how the 1200/2200 tones are made, using PWM and a sin table to create a varied PWM width that matches the frequency you are trying to create
[03:35] <aadamson> and a phase shift to get to any other frequency
[03:35] <aadamson> problem with PWM is that you need a filter to filter the PWM frequency (31.25khz in this case) or it comes through with the tone
[03:36] <kd2eat> Yea, I gather that much at the high level. I even basically follow the code. I just don't understand RF PWM modulcation particularly.
[03:37] <kd2eat> Oh, on another topic. I would like to mod the code to intermittently swap frequencies and send CW. I suppose I could do that by totally modifying the ISR that does the PWM modulation. I was wondering, if instead, I should use the GPIO pin that's designated for CW, and use THAT to modulate CW.
[03:38] <kd2eat> I'm not clear what I would do in that case? Just put a 1200hz tone on the GPIO pin and turn on PTT?
[03:38] <aadamson> if you don't modulate the pwm (turn off the time), then you just have a crystal there at 27mhz, and you could switch to OOK and just let the si send CW
[03:38] <aadamson> that's what OOK is
[03:39] <aadamson> and I've not looked, but expect that you can set the tones in the programming.... but why cw?
[03:39] <aadamson> they dropped that requirement for aprs long ago
[03:41] <kd2eat> I'm using this board for balloons with a cut-down. We want to foxhunt them. So, after a 30 minute flight, or so, the balloon will cut down the payload and it'll drop. I'm a little concerned that if the board lands funny, it may lose GPS sync. So, I'd like it to continue sending APRS, but intermittently switch to a simplex frequency and key up for a bit, and identify with CW. The
[03:41] <kd2eat> thought is that we get into the same general area via APRS, and then foxhunt with rdf on the simplex CW signal.
[03:41] <aadamson> if you are that close, just use a kenwood handheld with aprs in it and walk right to it :)
[03:42] <kd2eat> If the GPS coords are accurate. If not, we'll walk right to where it last had sync.
[03:42] <kd2eat> Are these GPSes pretty good about receiving if upside down or sideways?
[03:43] <kd2eat> Maybe I'm being pessimistic about them.
[03:43] <aadamson> the ublox are better than the mediateks and I get lock in my house in the basement on a mt3329 :)
[03:44] <aadamson> at the min, maybe using the beeper is a good idea
[03:44] <aadamson> all the above *assumes* batteries are still functional obviously
[03:44] <kd2eat> True. Our first balloon was CW with a beeper. It literally keyed up PTT on the radio, but you could hear the beeper at a decent distance. lol
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[03:46] <kd2eat> I guess before I spend time on it, I should run one through its paces after it gets a sync. If I can lay it in any random orientation and still get a lock, it'll probably be fine.
[03:46] <kd2eat> Our flights are planned to be 60 minutes or less, with a buttload of lift. Not too worried about battery life.
[03:46] <aadamson> maybe you need a g sensor (accelerometer) and a second battery that isn't used until the g-meter goes off :)... just thinking outload and not accounting for weight
[03:46] <kd2eat> DOwn the road I'll do an honest to god pico flight.
[03:48] <aadamson> http://www.leobodnar.com/balloons/B-14/index.html - look down page, you've seen the *ultratiny* ones these guys do?... freaking amazing stuff!
[03:48] <kd2eat> I'll probably be flying the PP4 board for tracking, and a second board to manage cutdown. I exposed I2C pins on the PP4 board, so it can talk to the cutdown board. We may have it drive the cutdown by time and/or distance from launch point.
[03:48] <kd2eat> Yep. Leo's missions are what inspired me to get into this.
[03:49] <kd2eat> I like the look of the pAVA R9, too. I love the riser cards for power options.
[03:49] <aadamson> yes, agreed, both are just *wicked awesome*
[03:50] <kd2eat> I don't understand diddly about solar, but I'd like to look into that. I ran some simulations, and it looks like a launch from Ithaca could fly right over central europe.
[03:50] <kd2eat> I'd love to put together a board to do APRS in the US, and switch to RTTY in europe.
[03:51] <kd2eat> Lob a few out there with solar and see if we could make it. lol
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[03:58] <kd2eat> Looks like the best I can do with the 10k resistors is 0.1%.
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[04:18] <brainles71> where do you guys buy/find schematics for your pico trackers?
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[07:19] <KT5TK> brainles71: http://kt5tk.wordpress.com/2013/07/24/pecan-pico-4-serial-number-1-built-working/
[07:19] <KT5TK> https://github.com/tkrahn/pecanpico4
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[07:35] <Upu> morning Brad
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[08:27] <fsphil> you'd think I'd have gotten used to mornings by now
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[08:27] <brainles71> fsphil: they just keep coming
[08:28] <fsphil> anyone in scotland want a met office sonde? http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/castorbay/
[08:29] <brainles71> i wish i was in scotland
[08:29] <fsphil> mmm. nice place
[08:31] <brainles71> +scotch
[08:31] <brainles71> sky fall really showed it off well
[08:31] <fsphil> the bond film?
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[08:32] <brainles71> yeah
[08:32] <brainles71> when they go up to the house he grew up in towards the end
[08:32] <fsphil> I'll get around to seeing it sometime
[08:32] <brainles71> and he's just standing there
[08:32] <brainles71> look out over a foggy valley
[08:32] <brainles71> *looking
[08:33] <fsphil> it's usually cold and damp
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[08:35] <fsphil> and near the coast it's cold and windy
[08:36] <Upu> oddly we've got lucky every time we've been
[08:36] <Upu> https://plus.google.com/photos/118244444241111963790/albums/5882726974004712209?banner=pwa
[08:36] Action: fsphil spots solar panels
[08:36] <fsphil> I've seen weather like that twice there
[08:36] <Upu> that was Ayeshire
[08:38] <Upu> yeah the solar panels are optimistic
[08:38] <fsphil> in the shadow in that pic
[08:38] <Upu> they are only there because Duncan the owners son fits them as a job
[08:38] Action: LazyLeopard once went to Mull. It was bright and sunny the first afternoon. For the rest of the week, however...
[08:38] <fsphil> there's a lot of houses in edinburgh with solar panels now
[08:42] <DL1SGP1> good morningn fsphil, Upu LazyLeopard and all others
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[08:44] <brainles71_> I would love to have a rural property with self sustaining power
[08:44] <brainles71_> although my country is in perpetual drought
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[08:45] <LazyLeopard> Hmmm... http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=9367
[08:46] <DL1SGP1> this is a picture of the solar power plant in my village http://www.juwi.de/typo3temp/pics/optiSquare_Lachendorf_01_507b35af42.jpg quite a few houses have photovoltaic panels but now that government and EU are throtteling down the subventions less will be installed I fear
[08:46] <fsphil> LazyLeopard: http://pvoutput.org/list.jsp?userid=22605
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[08:47] <fsphil> slightly smaller scale :)
[08:47] <brainles71> The EU does use quite a bit of nuclear though
[08:47] <fsphil> it hasn't even started recording any output today so far
[08:48] <Upu> I'm totally unconvinced by it
[08:49] <SpeedEvil> Upu: what/
[08:49] <Upu> solar pv
[08:50] <SpeedEvil> i would prefer to remove the subsidy, and go with net export.
[08:50] <SpeedEvil> though net export is an effective subsidy atm
[08:50] <SpeedEvil> due to distribution and generation costs differing
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[08:54] <SpeedEvil> if you have a constant baseload, it always in the uk generally makes sense in the uk to install twice that amount of panels - solely for internal use
[08:56] <fsphil> that's basically what mine do
[08:56] <Upu> basically without the subsidy I don't think it would stand on its own feet
[08:56] <fsphil> though undersized
[08:56] <Upu> but its a cheap way for the goverment to say "yeah we are green"
[08:56] <fsphil> I generate about half what our average (without electric heaters or other big devices on)
[08:57] <Upu> without actually investing any real money
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[09:03] <SpeedEvil> It is barkingly mad that a large generation facility gets less than a rooftop install
[09:03] <SpeedEvil> I would prefer for it to be much less regulated - and for you tofor example be able to purchase 'solar sheds' on ebay.
[09:04] <SpeedEvil> A normal shed, with a sloping roof made entirely from panels.
[09:04] <SpeedEvil> I mean at B+Q
[09:04] <fsphil> containing batteries?
[09:04] <SpeedEvil> Grid tied
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[09:08] <SpeedEvil> http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/SystemPrices.php?pT=SYSPRICE&dT=NRT is my understanding of what the 'real' price of wholesale electricity is.
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[09:09] <SpeedEvil> Over the last 24 hours, this has varied between 2.7p and 8.2p a unit
[09:11] <SpeedEvil> This is as I understand it the compensatory price paid if someone over or under-generates ontheir predicted generation capacity, and has to either buy, or sell to the grid
[09:17] <ibanezmatt13> This should help matters: http://pasteboard.co/iTDh825.png
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[09:23] <SpeedEvil> sigh
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[09:26] <LeoBodnar> morning *
[09:27] <Upu> morning
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[09:41] <ibanezmatt13> in exactly 2 moths time, I'll have known about the existence of being able to fly electronics to over 100,000ft for a year :P wow
[09:43] <fsphil> sadly still doesn't know metric :)
[09:44] <ibanezmatt13> :)
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[09:48] <WillDWork> is anyone going to the space conference at leicester uni on 1st March?
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[09:49] <SpeedEvil> I am not.
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[09:59] <ibanezmatt13> Wow, the payload box with everything in it except the camera weighs exactly 300g; the camera on its own weighs 288g! :)
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[10:01] <fsphil> not too bad
[10:01] <fsphil> what's in the box?
[10:01] <ibanezmatt13> NORB board, antenna, 2 lithium AAs. That's it
[10:01] <ibanezmatt13> And of course camera
[10:01] <ibanezmatt13> So 588g payload box in total excluding tape
[10:02] <ibanezmatt13> not sure how heavy the tape will be. Say an extra 70g? I've no idea :P
[10:03] <ibanezmatt13> pretty much gaffer tape
[10:03] <Upu> 9g per meter or something
[10:03] <Upu> its on the wiki
[10:03] <ibanezmatt13> oh right, cool
[10:03] <ibanezmatt13> I'll try and work it out
[10:04] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:materials
[10:04] <nats`> hi
[10:04] <ibanezmatt13> thanks Upu, I remember that now
[10:04] <ibanezmatt13> hi nats`
[10:05] <nats`> Upu I got the time to vna the LNA they are pretty good on all the range
[10:05] <Upu> excellent :)
[10:05] <nats`> need tog rab the data and send them to you
[10:05] <Upu> these were the SAWless ones ?
[10:05] <nats`> I mean if you are on a narrow band the phase is not too much distorded
[10:05] <nats`> yep :)
[10:06] <DL1SGP1> salut nats`
[10:06] <nats`> you don't have big change of phase
[10:06] <nats`> yop DL1SGP1 :)
[10:07] <nats`> upu I think with a little work it should be possible do to a selective multi band LNA
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[10:07] <nats`> some saw behind and rf switch :)
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[10:09] <Upu> most likely :)
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[11:35] <SpeedEvil> Oooh.
[11:35] Action: SpeedEvil thinks of DLP projectors as aninexpensive method of control for 'IR' teeny quads.
[11:37] <fsphil> a flock of quads?
[11:38] <fsphil> you could target them individually
[11:43] <gonzo__> quad copters? or thruster quads?
[11:49] <LeoBodnar> what like a phased array for IR transmitter?
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[11:49] <LeoBodnar> well steerable antenna array
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[11:51] <LeoBodnar> can mirrors in DLP be in mid-position? or is it on-off?
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[11:52] <fsphil> wondering that too. probably on-off
[11:53] <fsphil> the old ones where anyway
[11:55] <gonzo__> i thought DLP used a mono lcd matrix for the actual image, then spin a filter in fronr to make it frame sequential colour
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[11:56] <zyp> not LCD, mirrors
[11:58] <gonzo__> ah, mechanical scanning. baird would be pleased!
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[11:59] <fsphil> hah
[11:59] <fsphil> that's old is new again
[12:00] <fsphil> the flickering colour in DLPs are annoying
[12:00] <fsphil> move your eyes at all and the image turns into an RGB blur
[12:00] <Darkside> newer ones are better for that apparnetly
[12:00] <Darkside> the oldr ones have a color wheel
[12:01] <fsphil> hopefully. the one in the office here is about 5 years old
[12:01] <eroomde> we replaced the office projector with a big tv
[12:01] <fsphil> very poor colour too. the LCD one is vastly better
[12:01] <eroomde> worked quite well
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[12:02] <fsphil> I liked the projector at greenwich
[12:02] <zyp> I believe last time I checked, LCD technology had caught up with DLP
[12:03] <eroomde> difficult to conclude a point from that unless you specify when you last checked :)
[12:03] <fsphil> well both these projects here are about the same age
[12:03] <fsphil> so 5 years ago the LCD was winning :)
[12:04] <fsphil> both have a fairly meh 800x600 resolution
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[12:38] <nats`> Darkside I maybe found more interesting than minivna
[12:38] <nats`> sdr-kit
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[12:40] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
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[12:41] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: Basically - rip out LEDs in projector, replace with a 38khz or whatever high power near-IR source. Now, you simply modulate each pixel at the nominal framerate.
[12:41] <SpeedEvil> So you can use IR driven toys - and a _lot_ of them in a given airspace
[12:41] <LeoBodnar> heh
[12:42] <LeoBodnar> airspace is going to end up like space - full of junk
[12:42] <SpeedEvil> Move all of the nasty positioning hardware off them, and just do it optically
[12:42] <LeoBodnar> optical positioning is easy
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[12:54] <Laurenceb> new STM32 Dynamic Efficiency™ microcontrollers “square the circle”
[12:54] <Laurenceb> so it must be good
[12:57] Nick change: Sytex_AWAY -> Sytex_WRK
[12:57] <SpeedEvil> I want a product that explains how to get from 'collect underpants' to 'profit'
[13:01] <Laurenceb> im waiting for a tire manufacturer to say they have squared the circle
[13:02] <LeoBodnar> this is not rational
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[13:06] <Willdude123> Hello
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[13:07] <Willdude123> I hate geography
[13:07] <SpeedEvil> /me sighs and looks at his digikey box.
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[13:18] <LeoBodnar> /me signs for and looks at his digikey box
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[13:19] <brainles71> morning
[13:21] <SpeedEvil> Going from that awkward 'I can so so much with X' to 'I've got X, now can I get anything done with it.
[13:21] <Hix> LeoBodnar you about?
[13:22] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[13:22] <Hix> hi, do you know if it is possible [or where to source] 3.0mm headers?
[13:22] <LeoBodnar> I have so many devboards still in blister packs
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[13:23] <LeoBodnar> do you mean pin headers? have picture?
[13:23] <Hix> Some numpty at work has specced 3.0mm pitch instead of an off the shelf 2.54mm 0.1" and now we are looking at custom prototypes from protomould
[13:23] <nats`> I'm in desintox of maniac devkit buying :p
[13:23] <Hix> LeoBodnar yes - sec
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[13:23] <LeoBodnar> courtesy Laurenceb mostly
[13:23] <fsphil> hah
[13:23] <fsphil> yea I've a few stm32 discovery boards too
[13:24] <fsphil> evil things
[13:24] <nats`> anyway since I'm in this work I don't buy so much kit
[13:24] <mattbrejza> closest farnell do is 2.5 or 3.5mm Hix
[13:24] <nats`> I just ask supplier :D
[13:24] <Hix> LeoBodnar standard http://www.toby.co.uk/images/series/THD-xx-R.jpg single row male
[13:24] <Hix> has to be 3.0mm
[13:24] <LeoBodnar> lol part number says STM32F429I-DISCO
[13:24] <LeoBodnar> now I know why he needed one
[13:24] <nats`> hix go for samtec
[13:24] <nats`> they do almost all existing range of header
[13:25] <Hix> nats` you mean search or spec samtec connectors?
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[13:25] <nats`> off the shelf :)
[13:25] <LeoBodnar> semtec has nice pin headers of all sorts
[13:25] <Hix> ok thx will search there
[13:25] <nats`> http://www.ebay.com/itm/SAMTEC-Pitch-3mm-SIL-PIN-HEADER-1X-11P-12-13-14P-U-PICK-/360032997082
[13:26] <LeoBodnar> ^^ second dat
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[13:27] <LeoBodnar> they are really good
[13:28] <Hix> nice - cheers
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[13:28] <LeoBodnar> I have ordered a few esoteric and expensive Samtec headers from Farnell. They were on direct deliver from manufacturer. Samtec sent 20 instead 5.
[13:29] <LeoBodnar> *of
[13:29] <Hix> they were looking at 100 prototype parts which would probably cost in excess of £2000 idiots
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> I find it really annoying that farnell won't do 'It's OK, I can wait a week' forparts from the states.
[13:30] <SpeedEvil> So they can ship all of the extended range stuff in one massive pallet.
[13:31] <fsphil> I automatically exclude extended bits from the search now
[13:32] <eroomde> samtec headers:
[13:32] <eroomde> the ones for the cortex jtag with the polarity protection seem to be impossible to get in the uk
[13:33] <eroomde> you'd have thought they would exist as they're now the new standard for cortex jtag
[13:33] <eroomde> samtec ftsh-105-01-l-dv-k
[13:33] <eroomde> according to my notebook
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[13:34] <Lunar_LanderU> hello everyone
[13:34] <Lunar_LanderU> my professor has a guest professor for later, so my results will be there tomorrow
[13:34] <Lunar_LanderU> but the talk went well :)
[13:34] <craag> Lunar_LanderU: :D
[13:34] <craag> Well done!
[13:35] <Laurenceb> eroomde: have you seen tagconnect?
[13:35] <eroomde> no
[13:35] <eroomde> explain
[13:35] <Laurenceb> http://www.tag-connect.com/
[13:36] <LeoBodnar> I use them everywhere I can
[13:36] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:36] <LeoBodnar> legless
[13:37] <brainles71> interesting
[13:37] <eroomde> do they lock?
[13:37] <nats`> Hix for information samtec is a cool company
[13:37] <LeoBodnar> legless+clip
[13:37] <nats`> there are easy to work with
[13:37] <Hix> cheers nats` LeoBodnar
[13:37] <nats`> tag-connect OMG they want to use that at work
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: thosedolookinteresting
[13:38] <nats`> I find it near nightmare
[13:38] <eroomde> i can see the utility for a product or something that needs to be small
[13:38] <brainles71> what do you do bats` ?
[13:38] <brainles71> *nats`?
[13:38] <eroomde> but for our stuff i'd rather just stick to a standard
[13:38] <nats`> electronic design :p
[13:38] <brainles71> cool!
[13:39] <brainles71> is you end product in any particular field or are you all over the shop?
[13:39] <eroomde> there are increasinly more electronics designers here
[13:39] <eroomde> it's good
[13:39] <brainles71> i have no idea about any of this stuff. i have learnt so much in the last week
[13:39] <nats`> brainles71 special case we are the R1D + prod company of an ISP
[13:39] <nats`> R&D
[13:40] <nats`> so we in fact have only 1 customer
[13:40] <brainles71> i can tell you all about parking systems
[13:40] <brainles71> ahh ok
[13:40] <brainles71> my dad used to run an ISP back in the dial up days
[13:40] <nats`> we do from back office DSLAM Switches router to end user stuff like set top box and gateway
[13:41] <brainles71> nice
[13:41] <eroomde> nats`: oh interesting
[13:41] <eroomde> especially switches
[13:41] <eroomde> ptp switches all cost too much
[13:41] <brainles71> what field are you in eroomde?
[13:41] <eroomde> they assume you must be a bigbucks industrial operation and so don't care what it costs
[13:41] <eroomde> brainles71: rocket propulsion r&d
[13:42] <eroomde> but as a side effect i do quite a lot of instrumentation and control electronics - we build all our own datalogging and control and avionics stuff
[13:42] <brainles71> agh a rocket scientist!
[13:42] <brainles71> so your responsible for the rocket surgery then eroomde?
[13:43] <brainles71> Budum tss
[13:43] <brainles71> ill see myself out
[13:43] <eroomde> i have never described myself as a rocket scientist
[13:43] <nats`> take care it's cold outside
[13:43] <eroomde> i've yet to have the balls to do so
[13:43] <nats`> there are normal people with no passion
[13:44] <brainles71> haha thanks nats` but its a comfortable 23 degrees down here in sydney
[13:44] <eroomde> brainles71: all from doing hab actually
[13:44] <eroomde> i started on this channel when i was 18, and didn't especially know what i wanted to do
[13:45] <nats`> brainles71 open a beer I take a plane and come !
[13:45] <nats`> we have a loosy 10° here
[13:45] <nats`> and rain
[13:45] <nats`> -_-
[13:45] <eroomde> but hab stuff through uni got me into rockets and space generally, then we started doing some hab work for a space agency, and made lots of contacts that way, and i've ended up doing rocket propulsion r&d for a cool single-stage-to-orbit project, and couldn't be happier
[13:45] <brainles71> i have some homebrew that has been ageing in the bottle for the last month
[13:45] <brainles71> should be good now nats`
[13:46] <brainles71> ill chill one for you
[13:46] <brainles71> how old are you now eroomde?
[13:46] <LeoBodnar> nats` will bring some wine
[13:46] <nats`> yayy wine cheese and girls !
[13:46] <nats`> direct from france fresh in the fridge
[13:46] <nats`> (not the girls !)
[13:47] <LeoBodnar> don't tickle my buds nats`
[13:47] <eroomde> brainles71: 26
[13:47] <nats`> :D
[13:48] <brainles71> I'm working in carparks at the moment but I'm trying to move across to sales! I have always been interested in weird science stuff eroomde
[13:48] <brainles71> i got told to send in a resume from by a family friend yesterday and he works for a broadcast equipment company
[13:49] <brainles71> harris broadcast
[13:49] <brainles71> nats`: what part of france?
[13:50] <brainles71> i worked down in the snow last year and my roommate was french
[13:50] <eroomde> i've always been a space cadet. thankfully it's (sort of) the right place and the right time to be into propulsion in the uk at the moment
[13:50] <nats`> Paris :)
[13:50] <eroomde> havening been the worst place in the world for the previous 30 years
[13:51] <brainles71> i wasn't a fan of paris nats`& i love the loire valley though
[13:51] <nats`> brainles71 good choice !
[13:51] <nats`> I pretty much hate paris
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[13:52] <nats`> I lived in Nantes for sometimes and it was great
[13:52] <brainles71> eroomde: i was inspired to try and launch a balloon in 2009 by the toshiba space chair ad
[13:52] <brainles71> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6PSbUl_68k
[13:52] <eroomde> yeah that was fun
[13:52] <eroomde> the guys who did that (JP aerospace) are among the granddaddies of hab
[13:52] <eroomde> they've been doing lots of interesting stuff for many years
[13:53] <brainles71> yeah :)
[13:53] <brainles71> all i want is to get my geek on and take photos of the curvature of the earth
[13:53] <brainles71> im a bit photography nut
[13:53] <brainles71> big
[13:53] <eroomde> awesome
[13:54] <eroomde> well you've found the right place
[13:54] <brainles71> but i think ill end up learning a few skills that will take me interesting places
[13:55] <LeoBodnar> brainles71 you have to calm down on curvature though http://www.thulescientific.com/Lynch%20Curvature%202008.pdf
[13:55] <eroomde> you definitely wouldn't be the first
[13:55] <eroomde> it's super-awesome in that respect
[13:56] <nats`> there are many more interesting curvature right on the floor :D
[13:57] <brainles71> LeoBodnar: I'm aware i have to get up quite high to take those photos :) its not the first project ill take on! I have to be able to track stuff first :)
[13:57] <brainles71> your not wrong nats':
[13:58] <brainles71> nats`:
[13:58] <nats`> barrel distortion..... it reminds me hours of headhache :|
[13:59] <eroomde> or you just buy a gopro
[13:59] <nats`> I tried to understand a piece of software who correct barrel distortion on microscope picture
[14:00] <nats`> eroomde next rocket put a starfox drawing on it :)
[14:01] <brainles71> who cares about barrel distortion
[14:01] <brainles71> you have photos of the earth/space
[14:02] <LeoBodnar> I thought you were after the curvature?
[14:02] <nats`> LeoBodnar it's like spying on girl lockdoor :D
[14:02] <nats`> he just want to see it not especially measure it :p
[14:02] <brainles71> thats it
[14:02] <LeoBodnar> haha
[14:03] <brainles71> exactly nats` :)
[14:03] <LeoBodnar> you are not sure you even see it, but you can make up the rest
[14:03] <brainles71> I'm in it for the experience and the learning
[14:03] <x-f> Solar eclipse from SDO - http://sdo.gsfc.nasa.gov/data/ (near-realtime)
[14:04] <brainles71> well shit
[14:04] <brainles71> thats pretty cool
[14:04] <LeoBodnar> the Sun is awesome
[14:05] <LeoBodnar> I want one
[14:05] <brainles71> next step home brew hubble
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[14:05] <brainles71> eroomde: can i borrow a rocket?
[14:06] <Hix> Molex have an android app https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.molex
[14:06] <eroomde> brainles71: no
[14:06] <brainles71> well it was worth a shot
[14:08] <eroomde> balloons are the cheap and easy way to get high
[14:09] <brainles71> don't do drugs kids
[14:09] <brainles71> study wind patterns and PCB programs
[14:10] <brainles71> i played with single stage rockets when i was about 16
[14:11] <brainles71> got kinda boring after the 8th launch
[14:11] <eroomde> i still do play with single-stage rockets :)_
[14:11] <brainles71> how big are your single stage rockets?
[14:11] <eroomde> well the biggest one will by skylon
[14:12] <eroomde> which is big
[14:12] <brainles71> i have a feeling they don't take launch cartridges from the local hobby shop
[14:12] <brainles71> well sir you have my respect
[14:14] <eroomde> but at the moment all the research is with engines strapped down securly to a thrust stand
[14:14] <brainles71> your using SABRE engines?
[14:15] <eroomde> yes
[14:15] <eroomde> the sabre engine is what we are working on developing
[14:16] <brainles71> I'm very jealous
[14:19] <brainles71> hope you get it off the ground and safely back down
[14:20] <eroomde> me too
[14:20] <eroomde> lots of development work before we get to test-flights though
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[14:21] <brainles71> i understand :)
[14:22] <brainles71> how are you guys online for so long at one time?
[14:22] <brainles71> do you have one computer running your irc program all the time?
[14:22] <eroomde> irc client runs on a separate server
[14:22] <eroomde> i ssh into it
[14:23] <eroomde> so i'm here 100% of the time
[14:23] <eroomde> even though i personally am not
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[14:23] <brainles71> agh verygood
[14:23] <eroomde> just means i can pick up messages that people ioften leave
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[14:23] <eroomde> or keep an eye on the log, as nominally i should as a responsible channel operator (so goes the theory)
[14:24] <brainles71> yeah i have started checking zeusbot
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[14:25] <brainles71> i have a mobile dongle that i use at work and it drops out every 5 minutes so i often read through the logs when I'm talking to someone
[14:25] <brainles71> so i don't miss anything
[14:25] <gonzo__> I have been playing with BIP as a caching proxy. With the idea of having pne presence and not loding data or spamming the chan as the 3g drops in and out
[14:26] <gonzo__> but it's not quite that clever
[14:26] <gonzo__> if anyone else uses anythng more useful, would be interested to hear
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[14:27] <eroomde> just irssi on a remote server gonzo__ :)
[14:28] <mfa298> irssi on remote linux server (with screen/tmux) then if you have a linux client for chassing use mosh on the client to connect to the server.
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> I like quassel.
[14:29] <SpeedEvil> Which works well for me.
[14:30] <SpeedEvil> Android, linux, and even windows clients, all with one unified scrollback
[14:30] <LeoBodnar> why does this exist? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/435742530/udoo-android-linux-arduino-in-a-tiny-single-board
[14:30] <Upu> because of "NEXT LEVEL"
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[14:30] <Laurenceb> squaring the circle
[14:30] <LeoBodnar> Ah! "Blinking an LED"
[14:31] <LeoBodnar> 4xRaspberryPi + 1xArduinoDue
[14:31] <LeoBodnar> All my hate peeves in one
[14:31] <kd2eat> Because BIGGER!
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> http://ces.cnet.com/8301-35304_1-57616763/freescale-launches-$149-android-wearables-platform/ - android + teeny MCU + other teeny MCU that we don't reallydocument
[14:31] <SpeedEvil> Because - smaller!
[14:33] <eroomde> i wonder what a hackerspace would look like if you banned the words/phrases 'arduino, 'pi', 'internet of things'
[14:33] <eroomde> i wonder what they'd do
[14:33] <cm13g09> heh
[14:33] <LeoBodnar> PIC16F84A + LED
[14:33] <eroomde> that would be useful!
[14:34] <LeoBodnar> same thing
[14:34] <Laurenceb> they might get laid
[14:34] <LeoBodnar> but teaches you tonnes more
[14:34] <eroomde> just work through horowitz and hill
[14:34] <eroomde> and actually be pretty capacble at electronics by chapter 3
[14:34] <eroomde> just imagine
[14:34] <mattbrejza> whats wrong with getting a DIP 328 and putting it into a breadboard like old times :(
[14:35] <eroomde> i guess xerox parc or bell labs back in the 50s-80s were the ideal hackerpsaces
[14:38] <eroomde> mattbrejza: mattbrejza breadboard with slots!?
[14:38] <eroomde> nah, deadbug and bend the legs back
[14:38] <eroomde> the old-school way where you still need good high-speed performance
[14:38] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/errh56k66o5yky3/jwbb.png
[14:39] <LeoBodnar> wirewrap
[14:39] <eroomde> crappy electrically
[14:39] <LeoBodnar> better than soldering
[14:39] <eroomde> fine for a sea of 74xx stuff
[14:39] <eroomde> better is a brave word to use
[14:39] <LeoBodnar> mil stuff
[14:39] <eroomde> mechanically more robust i'd accept
[14:40] <Oddstr13> mattbrejza: nothing as far as i can see :P
[14:40] <LeoBodnar> it almost welds copper to copper
[14:40] <eroomde> it is a weld
[14:40] <eroomde> the pressure at the joints is sufficient for metal fusion
[14:41] <LeoBodnar> yeah but I meant digital design
[14:41] <Willdude123> We're learning QR codes in IT, they are more complesx than I thought. Interesting to learn about the R-S codes
[14:41] <LeoBodnar> you almost can't do it with deadbug style
[14:41] <eroomde> digital design is quite easy though. it only gets interesting once it gets fast, and then it's all the same problems as analogue :)
[14:42] <eroomde> yeah, for sure it would be a nightmare to do deadbug
[14:42] <Oddstr13> Willdude123: what, a IT class teaching anything other than M$ Word? o.o
[14:42] <eroomde> but you don't really need to breadboard digital stuff so much
[14:42] <LeoBodnar> for some reason high-speed associates with digital in my head
[14:42] <eroomde> you just do join-the-dots and then it's a software problem
[14:42] <LeoBodnar> while it should not
[14:42] <eroomde> yeah
[14:43] <eroomde> i really enjoyed the chapter on the scope front end in the jim williams book
[14:43] <eroomde> DC-500MHz attenutator, flight to within about 0.1db throughout
[14:43] <eroomde> almost witchcraft
[14:43] <eroomde> flat to within*
[14:44] <eroomde> nothin in digital really gets close to that level of complexity, in terms of signal integrity
[14:44] <eroomde> i mean except like designing the silicon in chips themselves
[14:46] <LeoBodnar> it's very interesting to be working for both IC and system level design manufacturing company
[14:46] <Lunar_LanderU> got a question on the Ubuntu PPA for dl-fldigi
[14:46] <LeoBodnar> so you understand the processes from silicon to the box level
[14:46] <eroomde> yeah
[14:46] <Lunar_LanderU> when I add the PPA key, can I then do sudo apt-get install dl-fldigi?
[14:47] <eroomde> i imagine the guys who design asic front-ends for modern high performance scopes can pretty much name their salary
[14:47] <eroomde> Lunar_LanderU: yes
[14:47] <Lunar_LanderU> thanks
[14:47] <Oddstr13> Lunar_LanderU: i think you'd need to apt-get update first, but, yea
[14:47] <eroomde> but add-apt-repository both adds the source and the key for you all in one step
[14:47] <Willdude123> eroomde: yuh
[14:47] <Willdude123> I'm taking computing GCSE
[14:48] <eroomde> you'll need to apt-get update *after* you've added the repo
[14:48] <Willdude123> We aren'tdoing about the RS codes
[14:48] <eroomde> Lunar_LanderU: which version of ubuntu are you running?
[14:48] <Lunar_LanderU> eroomde: did that
[14:48] <Willdude123> Still rewading about them though
[14:48] <Lunar_LanderU> 12.04
[14:48] <eroomde> rewading?
[14:48] <eroomde> Lunar_LanderU: ok fine
[14:48] <LeoBodnar> I used to consult the schematic diagrams of IBM PC and IBM AT when hacking now software and hardware are completely detached
[14:48] <Lunar_LanderU> yea
[14:48] <eroomde> should be all good to go then
[14:48] <Lunar_LanderU> actually, it is on my ThinkPad and it is Bodhi Linux
[14:49] <Lunar_LanderU> that is Ubuntu 12.04 with the "Enlightenment" desktop
[14:49] <Lunar_LanderU> yea there it is
[14:49] <Lunar_LanderU> thanks
[14:49] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
[14:52] Nick change: Sytex_WRK -> Sytex_AWAY
[14:56] <Willdude123> eroomde: reading
[14:58] <eroomde> Sytex_AWAY: you can set your status to away by typing '/away' rather than changing your nick, that way you don't spam the channel
[14:59] <Lunar_LanderU> ah thanks eroomde, that's a handy function
[15:03] <nats`> eroomde I think he's using it
[15:03] <nats`> many client change the nickname when away
[15:03] <nats`> that should be banned
[15:03] <nats`> that and people using color on IRC or auto voice/kick/ etc
[15:03] <nats`> let's go back to telnet irc :D
[15:03] <Oddstr13> well, atleast it isn't a chat line in addition ._.
[15:04] <nats`> you prefere a chat line or your eyes burnt ? :D
[15:04] <es5nhc> Using Xchat here
[15:04] <Oddstr13> nats`: like, /me is now away: eating
[15:05] Action: nats` slaps Oddstr13 around a bit with a large trout
[15:05] <nats`> :D
[15:06] Action: Oddstr13 slaps nats` around with an old keyboard
[15:06] <nats`> IBM one I hope !
[15:06] <Oddstr13> ofc
[15:06] <nats`> 4kg of pure violence !
[15:06] <Oddstr13> xD
[15:07] <Oddstr13> this is the perfect time for DXing i guess, sun's just down
[15:07] <nats`> where are you .
[15:07] <nats`> ?
[15:07] <LeoBodnar> our sun is up!
[15:07] <DL1SGP2> In norway it's down
[15:08] <es5nhc> So is in Estonia
[15:08] <x-f> just 20 minutes ago
[15:08] <Oddstr13> nats`: Innset, 7398 Rennebu, Norway
[15:09] <Oddstr13> shortwave is packed with signals xD
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[15:12] <DL1SGP2> welcome back cuddykid
[15:12] <cuddykid> afternoon
[15:12] <cuddykid> just had a cycle in the poring rain - needless to say it was a grim experience
[15:12] <Oddstr13> that right there must be ssb, as i can hear talking, but not make ut what on earth they are saying :P
[15:13] Action: DL1SGP2 just had a walk in the sun
[15:13] <DL1SGP2> Might be that you tuned in some Klingons as well Oddstr13
[15:13] <DL1SGP2> :)
[15:13] <Oddstr13> hope not ._.
[15:14] <DL1SGP2> which area are you listening to Oddstr13?
[15:14] Action: DL1SGP2 has learned not to ask Oddstr13 for precise frequency :)
[15:15] <Oddstr13> just below 9MHz
[15:15] <nats`> what is just below ? :D
[15:15] <nats`> you don't have a precise indication ?
[15:16] <Oddstr13> it reminds me of the sounds from my speakers, due to a nearby HAM, where i lived before :P
[15:16] <DL1SGP2> he is refering to the Volmet on 8957kHz
[15:16] <Oddstr13> nats`: good old analog AM Radio? :P
[15:16] <DL1SGP2> are you hearing some stanag noise in the voice Oddstr13?
[15:17] <Oddstr13> stanag? also, i need to find it again, thing the frequency changed a litle :P
[15:18] <Oddstr13> nope, i lost it :P
[15:18] <DL1SGP2> haha you turned up heating as it is getting night
[15:20] <Oddstr13> i'd say this radio is uite selective...
[15:20] <Oddstr13> DL1SGP2: ssb would sound like mumbling on AM demodulation, right?
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[15:22] <DL1SGP2> it would sound wierd :D
[15:24] <DL1SGP2> if you tune in somewhere above 7MHz (7100kHz) you should hear pretty many SSB stations 40m seems busy
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[15:31] <Oddstr13> i get quite a bit noise down below ~7.5
[15:32] <Oddstr13> sounds kinda like powersupplys / fans or something
[15:34] <LeoBodnar> 30 years ago people thought mains hum is horrible. Now it's like the best noise you can hear on radio.
[15:35] <Oddstr13> hah, i killed it!
[15:35] <Oddstr13> was the wifi ap :P
[15:36] <eroomde> i don't like mains
[15:36] <eroomde> it caused (well, my improper pulling down caused) one of my circuits to oscillate at 50hz
[15:37] <Oddstr13> ouch, mains inducted into the radio gear? :P
[15:38] <Laurenceb> not as bad as radio 4 on 197
[15:38] <Oddstr13> DL1SGP2: and, yea, that sounds like HAMs :P mumbling for a while, then silent for a while :P
[15:41] <Oddstr13> CW concert at around 10MHz :P
[15:42] <eroomde> Oddstr13: was actually a pyro controller!
[15:43] <eroomde> i had got a decimal point wrong, the bjt that started the thing firing needed a sufficiently low base current that the field from the maisn was enough to slightly activate it
[15:44] <Oddstr13> ouch, rockets gone wild
[15:44] <eroomde> it was a bjt that went into the pyro control circuit, it wasn;t just solitary bjt firing the pyro
[15:44] <eroomde> well, thankfully this was just a the breadboard stage :)
[15:44] <eroomde> but spacecraft have been lost to pyro boards
[15:44] <Oddstr13> hehe
[15:45] <LeoBodnar> mains can do funny things
[15:45] <eroomde> there's a wellknown case study on startup transients where not understanding them cause a space telescope to blow itself up in LEO
[15:45] <eroomde> just because of the design engineer not knowing how long it took an ldo to come up, vs an oscillator to start o resonate, vs flipflops to start in a known state, vs the main supply to that subsystem coming on
[15:46] <eroomde> it was a perfect storm of bad luck, though avoidable had he thought about it
[15:47] <LeoBodnar> I find design engineer to be an incompatible set of words
[15:48] <eroomde> why?
[15:48] <eroomde> in as much as they're tortological?
[15:48] <LeoBodnar> tautological?
[15:49] <LeoBodnar> my dictionary doesn't have tortological :/
[15:49] <eroomde> that one yes
[15:49] <eroomde> my brain does have spellings
[15:49] <nats`> crap I didn't heard that words in year :D
[15:49] <LeoBodnar> more like contradictory
[15:49] <Oddstr13> heh, this kinda looks like rtty
[15:50] <LeoBodnar> engineers are go-doers and designers are thinkers
[15:50] <eroomde> i do both
[15:50] <nats`> +1 LeoBodnar I agree with that
[15:50] <LeoBodnar> you are lucky to be had
[15:50] <nats`> in new comapny they love to call design "desgn architect"
[15:51] <LeoBodnar> *by the company
[15:51] <Oddstr13> that most definitly is rtty at 50 baud
[15:52] <eroomde> what do i call myself?
[15:52] <LeoBodnar> design architect brings memories of massive lilac cuffs
[15:52] <eroomde> my job is basically to use my understanding of maths and physics to solve problems
[15:52] <eroomde> the set of problems i work on are related to rocket propulsion
[15:53] <LeoBodnar> Just "wizard" would do
[15:53] <eroomde> that's basically the definition, without contentiously-defined terms
[15:55] <Oddstr13> http://oddstr13.openshell.no/paste/Uup1zFA6/ does this mean anything to you guys?
[15:56] <Oddstr13> not perfect reception tho
[15:58] <LeoBodnar> some marine telemetry?
[15:59] <LeoBodnar> is it AIS maybe?
[16:00] <LeoBodnar> http://www.nasamarine.com/proddetail.php?prod=weatherman
[16:00] <DL1SGP2> that is the Maritime WX report sent by german weather buero DWD from pinneberg
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[16:03] <DL1SGP2> http://www.dwd.de/bvbw/appmanager/bvbw/dwdwwwDesktop?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=_dwdwww_spezielle_nutzer_schiffffahrt_funk&activePage=&_nfls=false
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[16:05] <Oddstr13> cool
[16:05] <Oddstr13> that'd be 10100.8 then :P
[16:06] <DL1SGP2> hehe get some non permanent pen and make a mark :D
[16:07] <Oddstr13> it's just below the . in 10.0MHz :P
[16:08] <DL1SGP2> ok that is easy enough to keep in mind
[16:12] <Oddstr13> too faded to get anything more :P
[16:13] <eroomde> wonder if you could do a simple analogue hab with radio 4 longwave
[16:13] <eroomde> it has a precise time signal angle-modulated on its carrier
[16:13] <eroomde> it's broadcatst from a known location, droitwich
[16:13] <Laurenceb> you need multiple such stations
[16:13] <eroomde> if you receive and decode it, and you know where you are, you can make yourself coherent with it
[16:13] <Laurenceb> unless you have multiple receivers
[16:14] <Laurenceb> but with 4 receivers you can just do reverse gps
[16:14] <Laurenceb> but thats all useless for picohab
[16:14] <eroomde> and then if the hab were to repeat it back at some different frequency, and you measure the phase from the hab, you can calculate the hab's distance from droitwich and from you, no?
[16:14] <Laurenceb> as we have no network of suitable receivers
[16:14] <eroomde> and then you can at least narrow it down to 2 places
[16:15] <Laurenceb> isnt it a line?
[16:15] <Laurenceb> if you know altitude, anyway
[16:15] <Laurenceb> but that can be got via pressure
[16:15] <LeoBodnar> hab can just retransmit GPS IF
[16:15] <Laurenceb> yeah
[16:15] <Laurenceb> a few ms is like 2kB
[16:15] <eroomde> sure but that needs more bw and power
[16:16] <Laurenceb> more bandwidth maybe
[16:16] <Laurenceb> anything where you need a network of receivers is a pita to organise
[16:16] <Laurenceb> especially if the balloon is over the Ukraine
[16:16] <eroomde> i'm thinking about somthing that can be done with a couple of transistors in a postage-stamp pcb
[16:16] <Oddstr13> i guess i should try to make a headphone out -> mic in interface
[16:17] <Oddstr13> cause mic to speaker kinda degrades the signal quite a bit :P
[16:17] <eroomde> you wouldn't need special receivers for this, if you could receive both radio4 and the hab with the same receiver
[16:17] <eroomde> you could compare phases
[16:17] <Laurenceb> eroomde: each receiver gives you an ellipse
[16:17] <Laurenceb> so you need at least two receivers
[16:17] <Oddstr13> afk dinner
[16:17] <Laurenceb> with R4 timesync
[16:17] <eroomde> i don't think you do if you know distance-from-droitwich
[16:18] <Laurenceb> think of garden with line of string and two spikes
[16:18] <Laurenceb> it traces an ellipse
[16:18] <eroomde> can't visualise that at all
[16:18] <LeoBodnar> LW antenna is pita
[16:19] <Laurenceb> http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Elliptical-Garden-Beds
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[16:20] <eroomde> sure but you can constrain the length from it to you, because of your ranging tone
[16:21] <eroomde> .... sorry i started typing halfway through the thought, you also send a ranging tone
[16:21] <Laurenceb> oh
[16:21] <eroomde> the hab just bentpipes droitwich and you
[16:21] <Laurenceb> yeah that works
[16:21] <eroomde> or whatever and you
[16:21] <Laurenceb> alternativly you can use spherics
[16:22] <Laurenceb> supposedly DARPA have built such a system
[16:22] <eroomde> i was thinking something similar to those radar audio bugs
[16:22] <Laurenceb> *black helicopters*
[16:23] <Laurenceb> i guess we could use distributed listerners over uk easily
[16:23] <Laurenceb> would also work for a rockoon flight
[16:23] <Laurenceb> inb4 rage
[16:25] <eroomde> for a rockoon i'm guessing you could afford to engineer something a little more sophisticated
[16:26] <eroomde> i was looking at rebroadcasting gps if for something like that
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[16:32] <Laurenceb> actually you could go simpler
[16:32] <Laurenceb> trajectory fitting to doppler
[16:32] <eroomde> and multiple receivers?
[16:33] <Laurenceb> one can work
[16:33] <Laurenceb> but its not always stable
[16:33] <Laurenceb> looks like probably 2, but i haven't monte carlo'd it very exhaustively
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[16:36] <Laurenceb> http://www.wsmr-history.org/DOVAP.htm
[16:37] <Laurenceb> uses analogue "computer" for fitting
[16:37] <Laurenceb> but its a little more sophisticated than purely doppler
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[16:38] <Laurenceb> wait no
[16:38] <nats`> I want to rip eyes of every people who participated in the ROHS adoption
[16:39] <Laurenceb> origional dovap used multiple receivers
[16:39] <DL1SGP2> heh nats`
[16:39] <Laurenceb> this was built for V2 testing, using valve based stuff
[16:39] <Laurenceb> for explorer 1 they built the analogue fitter thingy, but i've never found good documentation for it
[16:39] <eroomde> nats`: come and do aerospace
[16:39] <eroomde> we don't have to bother with it
[16:40] <Laurenceb> same with medical
[16:40] <nats`> I'll send the body of a pingu to each of these personn -_-
[16:40] <nats`> they are making me mad
[16:40] <nats`> and IIRC aero medic and militeary should be in ROHS in 2015
[16:41] <DL1SGP2> do it the chinese way... put a sticker on it and your appliance is ROHS compliant with CE and all other required certs :D
[16:41] <eroomde> hopefully they'll keep the exemption for prototypes
[16:41] <LeoBodnar> just buy a voodoo kit
[16:42] <Laurenceb> eroomde: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/409103.pdf
[16:43] <Laurenceb> tl;dr : my fitting code clearly fails
[16:43] <Laurenceb> not the basic idea
[16:44] <Laurenceb> "The fact that none of the orbit parameters are degenerate means that all six parameters can be determined from knowing values of the doppler shift for six time points"
[16:44] <Oddstr13> as i have understood it, the millitary uses leaded solder becouse it handles mechanical stress better, and is more reliable
[16:45] <brainles71> LeoBodnar: whats a voodoo kit
[16:45] <Laurenceb> uh oh
[16:45] <Laurenceb> i just had a very stupid idea
[16:45] <Laurenceb> drop freefalling doppler beacons off a balloon
[16:46] <Laurenceb> "doppler darts"
[16:46] <brainles71> did i do something wrong?
[16:46] <DL1SGP2> brainles71: not that I can think of
[16:47] <LeoBodnar> what did you do?
[16:47] <brainles71> i don't know...
[16:47] <brainles71> but whats a voodoo kit?
[16:48] <DL1SGP2> might refer to a pack containing various voodoo-dolls and needles in order to assign names to them of targets you wish to torture, in this case RoHS Inventors :)
[16:48] <LeoBodnar> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mini-Office-Voodoo-Blue-Mega/dp/0762418648
[16:48] <nats`> LeoBodnar not enough to punish them :p
[16:49] <brainles71> haha ok
[16:49] <brainles71> here i was thinking it was something for HAB or radio that had an awesome name
[16:52] <Laurenceb> "our orbit determinations tabulated in Figures I and IT represent about 20 hours of computing time on a Univac Scientific 1103AF computer. "
[16:52] <Laurenceb> heh
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[16:53] <LeoBodnar> even computing time would have been classified information at the time
[16:55] <Babs> evening chaps - in Eagle i have a ground connection conventionally done on my schematic as the "T" with GND on the top of it
[16:55] <Babs> i have seen other circuits on here where the GND looks more like a luggage label. THey are a lot smaller and neater to fit on the schematic. How do I make one equivalent with another?
[16:56] <Babs> i have found a way of putting the "luggage" label type on the schematic but it isn't dragging my wire around with it so i am guessing it is not connected up
[16:57] <eroomde> totally can't follow without a pic
[16:58] <Babs> hey eroomde - two secs
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[17:00] <Babs> http://imgur.com/edit
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[17:00] <Babs> f. hang on.
[17:01] <Babs> http://imgur.com/BIVQFZp
[17:01] <eroomde> so you want the label tags on things like vcc and gnd
[17:01] <eroomde> rather than the red-brown symbols?
[17:02] <Babs> exactly.
[17:02] <eroomde> ok
[17:02] <eroomde> well
[17:02] <eroomde> don;t want that
[17:02] <eroomde> that's wrong
[17:02] <eroomde> vcc and gnd have symbols by convention
[17:02] <eroomde> the label tags are just for random signals
[17:03] <eroomde> it makes it easy as an EE to see a schematic and work out what is what at a glance, without having to read it too much
[17:03] <Babs> how do i get it to fit on the programming header then in a form that is right. just extend the wire out a bit further?
[17:03] <eroomde> the convention is to have vcc up and gnd down
[17:03] <Babs> ?
[17:04] <eroomde> one sec let me find an example
[17:07] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/dagyv1fztx672yy/vccgnd.png
[17:07] <eroomde> though that example does have messy labelling
[17:07] <Babs> ahhh ok, understand
[17:08] <eroomde> i put power symbols pointing up if they're attached to something taking power
[17:08] <eroomde> and down if they're from something producing the power - like the psu
[17:10] <Babs> ok. so these label things, mosi, miso etc. i can use them to physically connect the circuit even without direct wires on the schematic?
[17:11] <eroomde> yes
[17:11] <eroomde> so long as both ends have the same label
[17:11] <eroomde> they'll be automagically connected up
[17:12] <Babs> excellent. now, when i drag one of my labels, it doesn't drag the net with it in the same way as all of the components, GND/VCC do
[17:12] <Babs> I guess that means that they are not attached, even though they look as if they are?
[17:13] <eroomde> it should know it's attached
[17:13] <eroomde> but yes it won't drag the wire
[17:14] <Babs> why not? (just need to understand why, don't worry i trust you)
[17:14] <eroomde> don't know
[17:14] <eroomde> maybe you just want to move it out the way
[17:16] <Babs> ok, i guess ultimately as long as i see it connected on the layout then i know its ok.
[17:16] <Babs> thanks eroomde
[17:20] <LeoBodnar> the worst thing one can do is draw point-to-point GND all over the schematic
[17:20] <LeoBodnar> and then don't even label it as GND
[17:20] <eroomde> yes
[17:20] <eroomde> well there are probably worse things
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[17:25] <adwiens> has anyone used the tps6120x switching regs?
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[17:30] <adwiens> i noticed Pecan Pico uses it but left power save mode disabled and i was wondering if there was a reason for that
[17:30] <LeoBodnar> Spotlight search on my computer points to KT5TK PecanPico6
[17:31] <LeoBodnar> power save usually kicks in at very low currents
[17:32] <LeoBodnar> and it uses variable period pulses to keep load topped up
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[17:32] <LeoBodnar> Typically HAB designs power draw don't drop to that levels
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[17:33] <LeoBodnar> *from memory
[17:33] <adwiens> the datasheet shows it making a difference in efficiency even at 100 mA
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[17:37] <adwiens> anyhow i guess i was just checking if i can use power save at altitude/in the cold or if it was disabled because of that
[17:38] <LeoBodnar> You usually get aperiodic operation with power save. That's only a problem if you are trying to filter out specific DCDC converter frequency. I can't see a problem in enabling it.
[17:39] <LeoBodnar> I mean if you cleaned up your DCDC operation and don't want it suddenly to be messed up.
[17:40] <adwiens> i don't have a filter network after the DCDC converter, just a lot of bypassing caps
[17:40] <LeoBodnar> But at low currents where PS kicks in most if not all circuitry is disabled anyhow
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[17:41] <adwiens> ok
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[17:48] <jededu> any idea why i get this when trying to open a file in eagle ---- line 7, column 6: This is not an EAGLE file.
[17:48] <jededu> But it is an eagle file
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[17:59] <Oddstr13> http://oddstr13.openshell.no/gallery/image/76/ <-- seems to work fine inbetween the radio headset output and the computer mic input
[18:00] <Oddstr13> wonder what my radio thinks about it.. :P
[18:03] <adwiens> oddstr13 what is that?
[18:03] <adwiens> audio transformer?
[18:06] <Oddstr13> no idea! i picked it off of a fax machine
[18:07] <mikestir> it looks more like a common mode choke from the power supply
[18:08] me4 (~user@77.119.129.106.wireless.dyn.drei.com) joined #highaltitude.
[18:09] <Oddstr13> well, it comes from right after the phone plug
[18:12] <Oddstr13> the computer seems happy with it anyway
[18:13] <DL1SGP2> now :D you should post a picture of the radio as well :)
[18:14] <Oddstr13> will do
[18:14] <mikestir> I've been playing with WSPR - been ok without isolation so far, but I suspect that won't be the case at higher tx power
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[18:25] <DL1SGP2> pretty radio, thanks Oddstr13
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[18:27] <jededu> im new to this radio stuff so bear with me is it possible to reduce the transmitter power from 20mw to 10mw
[18:28] <jededu> its fixed at 20mw
[18:29] <jededu> I think Si4460
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[18:29] <Oddstr13> DL1SGP2: not the best picture - i need more lights in that room :P
[18:30] <Oddstr13> http://oddstr13.openshell.no/gallery/image/78/ here is one including the computer too
[18:30] <DL1SGP2> it looks a bit like a device got torn apart not too long ago Oddstr13, I like that
[18:31] <Oddstr13> you mean the mess to the right? :P
[18:31] <Oddstr13> that's actually some parts from different stuff :P
[18:32] <Oddstr13> you can see the scanner part of the fax machine there among other things :P
[18:33] <Oddstr13> and, yea, i just love tearing apart old electronics considered junk, and salvage stuff from it ^^
[18:34] <DL1SGP2> rest in pieces little fax machine
[18:34] <Oddstr13> xD
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[18:34] <Oddstr13> i kinda wana make a tracking stand using steppers from the thing :P
[18:35] <Oddstr13> printers & fax machines are a goldmine for stepper motors
[18:35] <adwiens> that would be tight
[18:35] <Oddstr13> atleast two in each of them
[18:35] <Oddstr13> adwiens: how so?
[18:36] <adwiens> a tracking stand would be tight
[18:36] <adwiens> as in cool
[18:36] <adwiens> lol
[18:36] <Oddstr13> ah ^^
[18:36] <adwiens> building a tracking stand like that is on my list of things i want to do
[18:36] <Oddstr13> i kinda wana be able to point a directional antenna at those NOAA sats transmitting weather images
[18:37] <DL1SGP2> APT or HRPT?
[18:37] <Oddstr13> APT for starters :P
[18:37] <Oddstr13> HRPT is the newer version, right?
[18:38] <DL1SGP2> I decoded a few passes the past few days, it is fun... hrpt is the high res version in the 1,6Ghz area(if I remember correct)
[18:38] <Oddstr13> been having fun decoding APT from youtube videos :P
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[18:39] <Oddstr13> but nothing beats actually receiving it yourself from the sats
[18:39] <Oddstr13> brb
[18:40] <DL1SGP2> yes but for starters a simple crossed dipole with circulary polarisation works quite good. When I started I built one out of the parts of an old umbrella. Alternatively you could build an Eggbeater antenna, or some moxon variant
[18:43] <DL1SGP2> see this PDF for the moxon variant http://www.oocities.org/w9bci/VHFUHFSatelite.pdf
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[18:47] Nick change: Sytex_AWAY -> Sytex
[18:47] <Sytex> re
[18:47] <DL1SGP2> or you build your own QFH
[18:47] <DL1SGP2> welcome back Sytex
[18:47] <Sytex> May I have a question about ublox?
[18:48] <DL1SGP2> just ask, instead of asking if you may ask :) whenever anyone could help they will answer you
[18:48] <Sytex> What does 'flight mode' mean in lot of examples? I cannot fond anything in datasheet (NEO-6M)
[18:48] <mikestir> it's the dynamic model setting
[18:49] <Sytex> 'dynamic' also cannot be found in datasheet
[18:50] <Oddstr13> DL1SGP2: had to dig a litle in my browser logs, but i fount it again; http://homepage.ntlworld.com/phqfh1/qfh_diy_guide.htm
[18:50] <Oddstr13> that one looks fun too :P
[18:50] <DL1SGP2> yeah
[18:52] <Oddstr13> http://www.jcoppens.com/ant/qfh/index.en.php there's another page with that antenna too
[18:52] <mikestir> Sytex: in UBX it's in CFG-NAV5 packet
[18:52] <mikestir> set to mode 6
[18:53] <mikestir> documented under "platform settings - dynamic platform model"
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[18:54] <Sytex> mikestir: thanks, I'll look after
[18:54] <Oddstr13> DL1SGP2: this one should be suited as a DIY HAB antenna, right? http://homepage.ntlworld.com/lapthorn/coathanger.htm
[18:56] <DL1SGP2> there was somebody on this channel who tested it successfully
[18:56] <DL1SGP2> some time ago
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[18:58] <Willdude123> I have to figure this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyLrus1yKvI
[18:58] <Willdude123> *figure out how to do it with amateur equipment
[19:00] <number10_> you will have your license revoked
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[19:02] <Willdude123> Good point
[19:02] <Willdude123> Only if you get caught.
[19:02] <Willdude123> What counts as violating your license?
[19:02] <Oddstr13> .....why are they using radio in the first place? ._.
[19:03] <Willdude123> Because if you violate your license could you not claim you would have done it had you not had a ham license anyway?
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[19:03] <adwiens> i think just because the people working wear the receivers, otherwise yeah they should probably just run a cable
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[19:06] <Willdude123> Oh, it is a hoax
[19:07] <mfa298> Willdude123: read your license terms. Whilst you might have done it if you didn't have a license - it would also stop you getting a license
[19:07] <Willdude123> Yeah, a bit silly to be honest.
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[19:08] <Willdude123> And why would toasters have crystals?
[19:08] <DL1SGP2> security device :P
[19:08] <number10_> you will get it revoked if someone posts a link of this channel to ofcom. We are trying to promote responsible use of amature radio for HAB and your comments on this channel do not help
[19:09] <Oddstr13> Willdude123: why would you want to mess with people that way anyway? >.<
[19:10] <Oddstr13> it's like a god darn troll on the internet :(
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[19:10] <Willdude123> number10_: 4(2)b of the license
[19:10] <ve6ts> this summers balloon supply has made it safely here, we are ready to go, now onto getting rid of all of the snow :)
[19:11] <Oddstr13> ve6ts: cool!
[19:11] <adwiens> nice
[19:11] <Oddstr13> where you based at?
[19:11] Action: mfa298 suspects Willdude123 would lose his right to IRC if his parents saw the IRC logs.
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[19:11] <Oddstr13> haha
[19:11] <ve6ts> our group has the following: 10x1200g 1x2000g 1x600g + of course all of my pico/micro stuff
[19:12] Action: Willdude123 thinks there's far worse stuff I've said in other channels
[19:12] <Willdude123> number10_: it can only be revoked if it is actually breached.
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[19:14] <number10_> shall we see
[19:14] <ve6ts> Oddstr13 i live in Calgary, AB, Canada and my launch site is my ristic cabin 1.5 hour drive away pics are here: http://arawr.ca
[19:16] <ve6ts> Oddstr13 where are you?
[19:16] <Oddstr13> ve6ts: Norway, so litle chance of me receiving anything
[19:16] <Willdude123> number10_: no, it's written there. I have not done anything wrong.
[19:17] <ve6ts> Oddstr13 ya that is too far for my signals, i do intend of floating a 10m beacon across canada one of these days
[19:17] <Willdude123> I've not violated a single term of the license
[19:17] <ve6ts> Oddstr13 have you been upto any launches up in Norway
[19:18] Action: mfa298 wonders how many clubs would offer the intermediate/Full exams to someone interested in all the ways of operating illegally.
[19:20] <ve6ts> i get upset at illegal operations in the ham bands here in Canada
[19:20] <ve6ts> mostly people who like to operate without a licence
[19:21] <ve6ts> i ran into that with the hang gliding clubs, they promote the use of the ham bands with no licence for flights, it's easier for them to take the air band licence, then ham anyway, so why are they using ham? (i have both air and ham licence)
[19:21] [1]iain_g4sgx (~yahalimu@87.112.94.155) joined #highaltitude.
[19:22] <ve6ts> and some people who have the basic exam around here, take advanced privledges without doing the license upgrade
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[19:29] <jcoxon> evening all
[19:29] <DL1SGP2> good evening jcoxon
[19:30] <adwiens> hey
[19:34] <Willdude123> mfa298: I find pirate radio and illegal operating fascinating. Consider it like reading Mein Kampf
[19:34] <Willdude123> You don't agree with it necessarily
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[19:38] <mfa298> Willdude123: there's nothing wrong with finding it fascinating, *but* staying things like "I want to figure out how to do this with AR kit" might give the wrong impression.
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[19:41] <Willdude123> mfa298: okay
[19:41] <Willdude123> I was more thinking for receiving it tbh
[19:42] <Willdude123> As it's fascinating to hear mcdonald's orders
[19:46] <Willdude123> Anyhow, I have genetics homework to do
[19:46] Nick change: Willdude123 -> Will|HW
[19:46] <jededu> is anybody familiar with the pecan pico
[19:49] <mikestir> a lot of fast food drive thru comms in the UK are infrared
[19:49] Action: bertrik didn't know that
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[19:50] <Oddstr13> ve6ts: nope, i just found the HAB community under a week ago :P
[19:52] <jededu> look
[19:52] <jededu> looks like its 100mw
[19:53] <kd2eat> jededu, I'm building one now. What's up?
[19:54] <jededu> Too much I need 10mw
[19:54] <Will|HW> I really really don't get this homework
[19:54] Action: Will|HW joins ##biology
[19:54] <kd2eat> The Si4463 has a programmable power level from 0-127. You could dial it down in software.
[19:54] <Will|HW> Oops
[19:54] <jededu> Can you use an attenuator
[19:55] Nick change: Will|HW -> Willdude123
[19:55] <kd2eat> I'm a software guy. I'd rather use one line of code. lol
[19:55] <jededu> of course in the software:)
[19:56] <kd2eat> char set_pa_power_lvl_command[] = {0x11, 0x22, 0x01, 0x01, 0x7f};
[19:56] <kd2eat> SendCmdReceiveAnswer(5, 1, set_pa_power_lvl_command);
[19:56] <Willdude123> Anyone know what a phenotype is? :P
[19:57] <kd2eat> That sets it to max. You could just dial it down a bit.
[19:57] <jededu> Cool
[19:57] <jededu> thx
[19:57] <kd2eat> I added that to the start_tx() routine.
[19:57] <kd2eat> np :-)
[19:57] <jcoxon> Willdude123, its visible trait
[19:58] <jededu> I will get there just takes a while ;)
[19:58] <kd2eat> I think the datasheet for the chip shows a chart. The output power is non-linear. To get 10mw, you may want to consult the chart, or measure it.
[19:58] <jcoxon> Willdude123, related to genes or environment or both
[19:58] <Willdude123> jcoxon: I am really not sure. Can I pm you as not to clutter up the channel with OT stuff?
[19:59] <jcoxon> Willdude123, unfortunately i've got to dash
[19:59] <jcoxon> i'm sure the land of wikipedia will help
[19:59] <jededu> Im on the data sheet now
[20:00] <Willdude123> jcoxon: okay :)
[20:00] <jcoxon> Willdude123, just for an example a phenotype is say being able to roll your tongue
[20:00] <jcoxon> or blue eyes
[20:01] <Willdude123> right
[20:02] <kd2eat> jcoxon, bottom of page35. TX Power vs. PA_PWR_LVL.
[20:02] <jcoxon> Willdude123, good luck!
[20:02] <Willdude123> thx
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[20:04] <kd2eat> Looks like you want to set the PA_PWR_LVL to about 20 or so for 10mw. That's based on 900mhz though. Dunno how much that would change at 144mhz.
[20:06] <Willdude123> Ah it's clicked
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[20:08] <jededu> Found it also tx power vs vdd
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[20:22] <jededu> kd2eat where did you get the board
[20:25] <jededu> made
[20:29] <Sytex> Who used ublox GPS: is the Eco mode enough for 'HABing' or Maximum Performance mode is recommended?
[20:31] <Upu> I'd just use max performance mode for an up down flight
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[20:32] <kd2eat> jededu, I used OSH Park. 2 batches of 3 boards (total 6) for under $30.
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[20:32] <adwiens> osh park is amazing
[20:33] <Sytex> Upu: And for floating? Is the Eco mode enough acurate/fast/etc?
[20:33] <kd2eat> jededu, one thing to do. When ordering components, get the 10k resistors at 0.1% tolerance.
[20:33] <Upu> "Eco" mode doesn't exist I think you mean cyclic mode
[20:33] <Upu> and 1s cyclic works but do test it well
[20:33] <Upu> as strange stuff can happen
[20:34] <Sytex> LEA-6_NEO-6_MAX-6_HardwareIntergrationManual.pdf Chapter 1.3.2.2 Eco mode
[20:34] <Sytex> "In Eco mode, u-blox 6 receivers use the acquisition engine to search for new satellites only when needed for
[20:35] <Sytex> navigation:..."
[20:35] <Upu> eco mode saved about 1mA
[20:35] <Upu> it was pointless
[20:35] <jededu> Will do thanks
[20:35] <Upu> its not in the 7's
[20:35] <Sytex> Okay :)
[20:35] <Sytex> thx
[20:35] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox_psm?s[]=power&s[]=saving
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[20:36] <jededu> Where can I get boards made in the uk
[20:36] <jededu> Small qty
[20:36] <Upu> in the Uk not sure
[20:37] <Upu> I use Hackvana
[20:37] <Sytex> Upu: thx for the link, and haven't seen it before. Now I'm reading the datasheet and the hardware... manual. The receiver arrived yesterday by mail.
[20:37] <Upu> which are made in China but ship to the UK
[20:37] <Upu> just join #hackvana jededu
[20:37] <Upu> nps Sytex
[20:37] <jededu> That will do thanks
[20:38] <Upu> you can have issues with power saving so test your code works even if they GPS looses lock whilst in power saving mode
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[20:41] <Sytex> Okay! Now I'm in prototíping phase, elements in breadboard. I'm testing sub-parts. On the week I finished RTTY testing, now the GPS is on focus. In the first flights I don't want to use power saving to reduce the possibilities of bugs :)
[20:41] <Upu> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:common_coding_errors_payload_testing
[20:41] <Upu> this page is your friend
[20:41] <Sytex> Yepp, I've read it before :)
[20:42] <Upu> if you commit any of the errors on this page at launch time you will be banished forever to your local model airplane club
[20:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Careful Upu I seem ro remember a recent flight ....
[20:43] Action: Upu sits in his glass house throwing half charlies
[20:43] <arko> lol
[20:43] <Sytex> And it is a:)
[20:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> LoL
[20:43] <Sytex> :)
[20:54] <LeoBodnar> "..i have just copied earlier code" lol
[20:54] <fsphil> errors? we don't make errors, just happy little accidents
[20:54] <LeoBodnar> whole life is just testing
[20:59] <ibanezmatt13> talking of errors, I probably should check that crossing the 0 degrees meridian won't cause me any major problems
[21:01] <LeoBodnar> check equator just in case as well
[21:02] <ibanezmatt13> well, with the winds that might occur, I probably should :P
[21:09] <Willdude123> Hello
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[21:13] <fsphil> http://lroc.sese.asu.edu/news/index.php?/archives/857-Close-Encounter!.html
[21:13] <fsphil> neat
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[21:14] <Willdude123> Upu: did I mention hackvana now have my boards
[21:14] <jdiez> hey guys, I want to launch a HAB as a uni project. I've researched into most stuff but I can't find much on chute deployment mechanisms, could you guys give me any pointers?
[21:15] <eroomde> we fly the chutes already deployed
[21:15] <eroomde> saves the whole problem of having to deploy
[21:15] <jdiez> so how don't they slow down the ascent?
[21:15] <eroomde> they're inline
[21:15] <eroomde> payload-------------chute------------balloon
[21:16] <kd2eat> They open when going down. close when going up.
[21:16] <eroomde> they take the tension from the wright of the payload on the way up
[21:16] <eroomde> then when the balloon bursts, they inflate
[21:16] <jdiez> ahh I see. makes sense
[21:16] <eroomde> keeps it nice and simple
[21:16] <jdiez> indeed. i was thinking of making most of the tracking/science software myself, and maybe throw in a gopro for good measure
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[21:18] <eroomde> sounds good
[21:19] <jdiez> should I expect to maintain a telemetry lock throughout the whole flight? I've read that with high-gain directional antennas and a competent chase car it's feasible
[21:19] <jdiez> obviously I also wanted to be able to use gsm as fallback
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[21:21] <LeoBodnar> yes it will fall back alright
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[21:21] <Willdude123> :)
[21:21] <kd2eat> *snort*
[21:21] <Sytex> LOL
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[21:21] <LeoBodnar> it's just about what it's good for in HABing
[21:21] <Willdude123> *looks at how complicated the origins of world war one are*
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> A telemetry lock all, or most of the time - if you're actually tracking it - is quite possible
[21:22] <eroomde> jdiez: yes, a lock through is reasonable, modulo the final few hundred meters of descent or whatever, and assuming you don't live in a mountain range
[21:22] <jdiez> hey SpeedEvil, I think I know you from other channels :)
[21:22] <SpeedEvil> Possibly
[21:22] <jdiez> DCPU perhaps?
[21:23] <jdiez> eroomde: and I could use gsm for the final descent right? that sounds pretty reasonable
[21:23] <eroomde> no it's crap
[21:23] <eroomde> i mean you can, but it's crap
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> jdiez: Problem is that GSM may not get lock before it hits.
[21:23] <jdiez> hmm, elaborate please?
[21:23] <LeoBodnar> jdiez: if you lose track of a payload the chances of finding it again reduce very quickly indeed
[21:23] <Willdude123> jdiez: I once met someone on Freenode who I'd met on a completely different network
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> jdiez: And if it lands upside down, ior in a hollow t may not then work
[21:23] <eroomde> most people just do radio only, gsm is one of those things that sounds better in theory than it is in practice
[21:23] <eroomde> it can be a useful backup though
[21:24] <Willdude123> I mean the two channels weren't remotely related
[21:24] <Willdude123> Although we have the birthday problem
[21:24] <jdiez> Willdude123: I guess the demographic of people who use irc is rather reduced :P
[21:24] <Willdude123> So I guess it's sorta not too surprising
[21:24] <eroomde> gain when literally on the ground is massively lower than when against a head at head height
[21:24] <eroomde> it's very easy for you to not get gsm reception where you've landed
[21:24] <jdiez> eroomde: huh, I didn't know that
[21:24] <jdiez> interesting
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[21:24] <eroomde> and very easy for the cell tower to not negotiate with it properly until it's landed
[21:25] <jdiez> so maybe add landing legs? :P
[21:25] <eroomde> :)
[21:25] <eroomde> where are you geographically?
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[21:25] <jdiez> west midlands, uk
[21:25] <jdiez> I looked at some simulations for launches in the near future, it looks awful :P unless I target a low altitude
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[21:26] <Willdude123> Is GSM the only backup method there is?
[21:26] <jededu> where in west mids
[21:26] <jdiez> coventry atm
[21:26] <jededu> brum
[21:26] <jdiez> nice, pretty close
[21:27] <eroomde> the weather is awful atm
[21:27] <eroomde> but it'll be fine come spring
[21:27] <Sytex> landing legs... maybe you play to much KSP :)
[21:27] <jdiez> yeah, it's shit
[21:27] <jdiez> Sytex: hey, it's a pretty viable solution :)
[21:27] <jdiez> anyway, I have to sell the idea to my uni first
[21:27] <jdiez> tell them how it'll attract students or something
[21:27] <eroomde> 99% of people recover fine with radio only
[21:28] <eroomde> but do fly a separate gsm tracker if it makes no difference, it's not going to cost you anything except a little mass
[21:28] <eroomde> are you not a student jdiez?
[21:28] <jdiez> okay, noted
[21:28] <LeoBodnar> are you doing design yourself jdiez ?
[21:28] <jdiez> i am a student, eroomde
[21:28] <jdiez> computer science
[21:28] <jdiez> LeoBodnar: yeah
[21:29] <eroomde> ah, mis-parsed
[21:29] <eroomde> cool
[21:29] <LeoBodnar> remember that GSM needs reasonably high currents when active - few amps in peak
[21:29] <jdiez> woah, really?
[21:29] <jdiez> wouldn't have thought so
[21:29] <eroomde> well uni's usually follow the pattern of not being interested until you get in a paper
[21:29] <Willdude123> Or in true KSP style, rockets on final descent
[21:29] <jdiez> eroomde: cov uni is... strange. they seem to be into crazy stuff as long as it's very well covered
[21:30] <LeoBodnar> that's one of the inconveniences with them
[21:30] <jdiez> at least in terms of "social media"
[21:30] <Willdude123> It's a shame you can't get engines as small as in ksp in real rile
[21:30] <Willdude123> *life
[21:30] <jdiez> Willdude123: yeah, that'd be cool
[21:30] <eroomde> yeah it's a few amps peak, a gsm modem can be a couple of watts when transmitting, and the linear power amps required are not very efficient
[21:31] <Willdude123> eroomde: following the discussion on books can I pm you to ask your opinion on a certain book? Totally fine if you don't care also
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[21:31] <eroomde> yes
[21:31] <eroomde> ofc
[21:34] <jdiez> are there any raw data dumps of weather baloons available somewhere?
[21:34] <jdiez> balloons*
[21:34] <SpeedEvil> You mean 'proper' or HAB ones
[21:34] <jdiez> HAB
[21:34] <Geoff-G8DHE> Which one http://habitat.habhub.org/ept/
[21:34] <jdiez> oooh, cool
[21:35] <anerDev> hi guys =D
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[21:39] <anerDev> guys, I would like to use a real time camera.
[21:39] <anerDev> But what's the best solution for the camera and for the wireless transmission =
[21:39] <anerDev> ?
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[21:40] <Geoff-G8DHE> RPi camera and SSDV for down link
[21:41] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ssdv?s[]=ssdv
[21:41] <Sytex> What is the download time of one pic witth 300baud SSDV? For example 320x240?
[21:41] <Sytex> *with
[21:42] <Upu> 5 mins
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[21:43] <Sytex> Has anyone made SSDV setup with PIC or ATMEGA?
[21:44] <Upu> yes fsphil using a serial camera
[21:44] <Geoff-G8DHE> https://github.com/fsphil/hadie
[21:45] <Sytex> I only saw raspi solutions before. But theoretically it can be made with ATMEGA and externel SD card...
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> serial cameras are quite expensive
[21:45] <Upu> you don't even need the SD card
[21:45] <daveake> nope
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> Normal cameras need very, very rapid readout of the entire frame to get a picure
[21:45] <bertrik> I read about codec2 recently, it encodes speech audio in as low as 1200 bit/s
[21:45] <Sytex> You cannot fit one picture in 2K or 4K SRAM
[21:45] <SpeedEvil> bertrik: It is neat.
[21:46] <daveake> I don't think these serial cameras count as "normal" in any shape or form :p
[21:46] <mikestir> there are some aptina sensors with parallel interface and built in jpeg encoder that are about a tenner on ebay
[21:46] <SpeedEvil> Sytex: in principle, you could decimate it as it came in
[21:46] <daveake> Ask fsphil what he thinks of them
[21:46] <bertrik> the modem layer takes 14 QPSK carriers at 50 symbols/s encoding 2 bit/symbol each
[21:46] <bertrik> possibly interesting for HAB data too?
[21:48] <Sytex> decimate?
[21:48] <bertrik> SpeedEvil: yes, it looks like it's about ready to take over as open source digital voice
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> Needs actual hw.
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[21:55] <Sytex> goodnight all ;)
[21:55] Nick change: Sytex -> Sytex_AWAY
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[22:05] <chrisstubbs> If I had a pound for every time I helped carrying jukeboxes in/out of this house. I would have 6 pounds.
[22:05] <chrisstubbs> and probably a lot less back pain
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[22:08] <fsphil> Sytex_AWAY: the image is streamed and encoded of the camera as it gets transmitted. it only needs to store enough in the avr's sram to encode a single packet. If I remember correctly it's about 2KB
[22:16] <LeoBodnar> this experience must be like a broken record
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[22:22] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[22:22] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: For serial cameras?
[22:23] <fsphil> yea
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[22:24] <fsphil> good appropriate local time of day Lunar_Lander
[22:24] <arko> its afternoon fools!
[22:25] <daveake> you're livin' in the past!
[22:25] <arko> \o/ yay time travel
[22:28] <fsphil> I travelled into the future once, and it was like some post-nuclear war landscape and there where kangaroos. and people talked funny
[22:28] <arko> sounds like that time i went to the uk, minus the kangaroos
[22:28] <arko> but they had way better architecture
[22:29] <arko> and funny electrical plugs
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[22:29] <fsphil> yes that creature had only evolved into squirrels at the point in time you visited
[22:29] <arko> doh!
[22:29] <fsphil> but even there the people talked funny
[22:30] <eroomde> hire us
[22:30] <eroomde> get jpl to hire ael
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> we actually watched Cloud Atlas at uni today
[22:31] <Lunar_Lander> that was a good movie
[22:31] <arko> i'd love to
[22:31] <arko> thatd be epic
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[22:43] <DL1SGP> fsphil, were there any traces of ninja-goats in that post-nuclear war landscape?
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[22:47] <fsphil> no sign of them at all and there totally isn't one forcing me to type this right now please help
[22:47] <nats`> ninja-goaturtle !
[22:47] <DL1SGP> heh
[22:47] <nats`> please don't offense them
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[23:27] <Willdude123> Right eroomde and I are taking a 2 week irc break so if you need me, email me, it
[23:27] <Willdude123> starts midnight
[23:29] <natrium42> wait, eroomde too?
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[23:32] <brainles71> well then
[23:32] <fsphil> but it's not midnight
[23:33] <daveake> gift horse / mouth
[23:33] <brainles71> thats right its 10:32 over here
[23:33] <brainles71> why can't we all have midnight?
[23:33] <daveake> Just adopt Will Standard Time and you can have one right now
[23:34] <brainles71> haha
[23:37] <natrium42> what's your email, WillDuckworth?
[23:38] <fsphil> wrong WillD
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[23:39] Action: mfa298 wonders if there's any bookmakers that would take the bet that it won't last 2 weeks
[23:41] <brainles71> are pico trackers an acceptable currency?
[23:41] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[23:42] <Lunar_Lander> PicoCard
[23:42] <brainles71> for everything else theres PicoCard
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[23:45] <natrium42> fsphil: different person entirely or an alter ego?
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[23:46] <natrium42> i wouldn't mind sending facsimiles to eroomde
[23:46] <natrium42> it has a certain style
[23:46] <fsphil> different person entirely
[00:00] --- Fri Jan 31 2014