highaltitude.log.20140128

[00:00] <gonzo__> possibly
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[00:00] <gonzo__> though that could be a power supply filter
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[00:01] <gonzo__> though the gas discharge does sound like phone line prorection
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[06:44] <brainles71> morning
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[07:08] <brainles71> Morning
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[08:04] <fsphil> bring it on tuesday
[08:08] <SpeedEvil> Anyone got any tiny things they've been waiting to order from digikey?
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[08:09] <fsphil> a tiny easy to post in an envelope thing?
[08:15] <brainles71> are you guys in australia?
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[08:15] <Upu> UK here
[08:15] <SpeedEvil> fsphil: yes
[08:16] <SpeedEvil> Scotland here.
[08:16] <SpeedEvil> (Which I do accept is part of, and wish to remain in the future part of the UK)
[08:16] <brainles71> agh my brother is headed your way next week
[08:16] <fsphil> N.Ireland, also UK (long story ;)
[08:16] <Upu> hah
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[08:17] <brainles71> hes visiting a friend in London and traveling around the area a bit
[08:17] <fsphil> London's a nice place to visit
[08:18] <brainles71> fsphil: so are you in aus or overseas?
[08:18] <brainles71> yeah i have been there once
[08:18] <brainles71> its pricey but nice
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[08:19] <fsphil> brainles71: n.ireland. I was briefly in aus a few years ago
[08:19] <brainles71> ahh ok
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[08:20] <brainles71> just getting into HAB and i would be nice to tag along with someone
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[08:20] <brainles71> im in nsw
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[08:21] <fsphil> there are some launches down there, although with it being such a big country you might not be in range
[08:22] <brainles71> yeah theres project horus which Darkside is a part of but they are based down in Adelaide
[08:22] <brainles71> bit of a trek from sydney
[08:23] <fsphil> yea. the other group who have launched recently are in Melbourne
[08:23] <brainles71> do you know there name?
[08:23] <fsphil> a floater from Adelaide could reach you
[08:23] <brainles71> *their
[08:23] <fsphil> http://projectspaceballoon.net/
[08:24] <brainles71> it could
[08:24] <brainles71> I'm so green thought i have no idea
[08:24] <brainles71> i want to go through it with someone start to finish
[08:24] <brainles71> i could figure it all out on my own
[08:24] <brainles71> I'm just so new to everything radio
[08:24] <fsphil> yea better to get someone local
[08:25] <fsphil> sydney's tricky though
[08:25] <fsphil> the winds will tend to push balloons out to sea
[08:25] <brainles71> i see guys here talking about doppler and stuff
[08:25] <fsphil> doppler won't be a problem
[08:25] <brainles71> when we get everything going we will probably launch out in parks
[08:25] <fsphil> they don't go fast enough
[08:25] <SpeedEvil> Doppler we've been wibbling about in context of GPS
[08:25] <brainles71> *parkes
[08:25] Action: Joel_re might be in sydney for a month in march, plan to launch my balloon before that
[08:26] <SpeedEvil> This has also become a 'GPS is cool' channel.
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[08:26] <Joel_re> GPS is cool!
[08:26] <fsphil> wish I'd visited Parkes when I was there
[08:26] <fsphil> it's not a short drive though!
[08:26] <brainles71> its pretty cool
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[08:26] <brainles71> i went out there to escape from my ex for a few days
[08:27] <brainles71> spent some time walking around and taking photos
[08:27] <brainles71> watched it move twice
[08:27] <brainles71> pretty frickin awesome
[08:27] <Upu> only twice ?
[08:28] <DL1SGP> Morning folks
[08:28] <fsphil> I should go to Jodrell Bank next time I'm in england
[08:29] <brainles71> morning
[08:29] <brainles71> i hopped the 75cm high fence and stood under it to get the full effect
[08:29] <brainles71> it was pretty awesome
[08:31] <brainles71> took me a bit to figure out that the low buzzing in the background was the dish tracking an opject
[08:31] <brainles71> *object
[08:31] <fsphil> hope you had no transmitters on you
[08:31] <brainles71> negative
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[08:31] <brainles71> phone was in flight mode
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[08:34] <brainles71> best place to buy balloons?
[08:35] <Upu> www.randomengineering.co.uk
[08:36] <brainles71> thats the site i just found
[08:36] <brainles71> excellent
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[08:39] <brainles71> I'm even learning about PCB design
[08:39] <brainles71> so much info i never thought i would even look at
[08:39] <fsphil> you can learn a lot doing this
[08:40] <Upu> just a bit :)
[08:40] <brainles71> any recommendations for cutdown?
[08:40] <brainles71> i was looking at trackuino
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[08:40] <Upu> try www.habduino.org instead
[08:40] <Upu> (my design)
[08:41] <brainles71> rough cost?
[08:41] <Upu> about £100 a unit
[08:41] <Upu> with antenna battery pack and antenna
[08:41] <brainles71> very nice
[08:42] <Upu> out of stock atm waiting on chinese new year to finish
[08:42] <Upu> but try design your own
[08:42] <Upu> :)
[08:42] <Upu> more rewarding
[08:42] <Gadget-Work> Most un-sporting of the chinese
[08:42] <brainles71> yeah i am :) thus learning about pcb
[08:42] <Upu> bad timing on my part
[08:43] <brainles71> my dad went through uni doing computer science when this is what they learned&
[08:43] <Gadget-Work> Upu, I've delayed my current PCB order.
[08:43] <brainles71> its now a rare art form
[08:43] <Upu> well I have 7 PCB's and 2 stencils waiting
[08:43] <Gadget-Work> Nice :)
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[08:45] <Laurenceb_> this is amazing - http://www.ptmts.org.pl/2013-2-baranowski.pdf
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[08:48] <Hix> Morning, anyone experiencing any problems seeding yeaterday / today? I just downloaded Benefits street to test as it has 4 people leeching but it still isn't seeding...
[08:48] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Can you explain what you were talking about yesterday about incoherentdetection - I don't get it.
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[08:49] <SpeedEvil> Hix: It's all those damn scroungers.
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[08:49] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[08:49] Action: SpeedEvil stabs the makers of the above program.
[08:49] <Laurenceb_> heh its basically a documentary
[08:49] <Laurenceb_> its not actually giving an opinion
[08:49] <Laurenceb_> anyway..
[08:49] <Laurenceb_> "incoherent" detection
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[08:50] <Laurenceb_> add noise to the local oscillator
[08:50] <Laurenceb_> that way the sats are spread across ~10kHz of bandwidth
[08:50] <SpeedEvil> you mean just random jitter - or something more complex?
[08:50] <Laurenceb_> then run the correlator at a single frequency
[08:50] <Laurenceb_> yes, jitter
[08:50] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right - I think I get it
[08:50] <Laurenceb_> then if you integrate over 100ms or so
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[08:51] <SpeedEvil> you smear the satellite over the whole frequency space
[08:51] <Laurenceb_> you build up enough signal
[08:51] <Laurenceb_> yes
[08:51] <fsphil> what use is that?
[08:51] <SpeedEvil> It means you can skip much of the aquisition.
[08:51] <Laurenceb_> yes
[08:51] <SpeedEvil> If I'm understanding it right
[08:51] <Laurenceb_> you can just add 1ms chunks
[08:52] <Laurenceb_> then use a single FFT to go to frequency space
[08:52] <Laurenceb_> then multiply be lookups for each satellite and ifft
[08:52] <SpeedEvil> Would you want to actually instead of jitter use ideally a PRN sort of jitter?
[08:52] <Laurenceb_> yes
[08:52] <Laurenceb_> but a 100ms long PRN would be annoying
[08:52] <Laurenceb_> i think it would have to be a two stage process
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[08:52] <Laurenceb_> 4.092Mhz LO
[08:53] <Laurenceb_> then lower frequency 10kHz bandwidth jitter PRN lookup
[08:53] <SpeedEvil> IIRC there are 'spread spectrum' clock chips.
[08:53] <SpeedEvil> I'm not sure if any will quite suit
[08:53] <Laurenceb_> yeah, they would jitter everything
[08:53] <Laurenceb_> im not sure thats the same
[08:53] <SpeedEvil> they have configurable jitter PRNs
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[08:55] <Laurenceb_> id never realised artillery shells took spin stabilisation to the extreme
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[08:56] <Laurenceb_> they use it to face into the wind as the velocity shifts around
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[08:56] <Laurenceb_> using lift + magnus effect
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[08:57] <SpeedEvil> Neat!
[08:57] <qyx_> nanana, se4110 arrived
[08:57] <Laurenceb_> until it land on your house...
[08:57] <Laurenceb_> right, bbl
[08:58] <SpeedEvil> Also - Err - I may have been thinking of the otehr benefits documentary series
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[08:59] Action: SpeedEvil realises digikey has them for 2 whole pounds.
[09:00] Action: SpeedEvil thinks about an array of GPS recievers.
[09:01] <qyx_> i rdered mine for $3
[09:01] <qyx_> some utsource china ebay thing
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[09:01] <qyx_> but came properly packaged
[09:02] <SpeedEvil> I wonder on what baseline GPS compassing becomes possible
[09:02] <gonzo__> i recall reading that the first programable computer, it's first task was to calculate gunnery tables for the navy
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[09:03] Action: SpeedEvil decides against adding them to the digikey order.
[09:04] <gonzo__> there is a tank range nearish to here. Hear the booms when we are out for a lunchtime walk. And then hope not to hear a whistle
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[09:10] <SpeedEvil> Don't worry, you won't.
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[09:11] <SpeedEvil> (they are supersonic)
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[09:17] <gonzo__> ok, whistle then boom
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[09:20] <SpeedEvil> No, boom, then very little, as it's hit you
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[09:21] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: a few cm!
[09:21] <eroomde> baseline
[09:21] <eroomde> with the appropriate custom decoder
[09:21] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: yeah - I realised you can do it usefully with camera
[09:21] <SpeedEvil> carrier
[09:23] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about a PRU from a beaglebone black hooked up to 8 or so receivers clocked alike
[09:23] <gonzo__> if it ht, would not even be around by the time the boom caught up!
[09:23] <SpeedEvil> Would also be awesome for detecting GPS jammers.
[09:24] Action: SpeedEvil ponders HARM.
[09:24] <gonzo__> even on a few 100yds rifle range it's suprising the delay between the crack of the bullet going passed and the report from the muzzle
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[09:30] <eroomde> as someone who has spent many hours standing behind a sand bank at the target end of a bisley range, i concur
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[09:34] <nats`> hello channel !
[09:36] <eroomde> hello nats`
[09:37] <gonzo__> I think century range at bisley is 500yd eroomde. That would be quite a delay
[09:40] <Joel_re> are there any DIY 400Mhz LNA out there, I could look at
[09:40] <Joel_re> Its a bit too expensive for me to get it from Upu right now
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[09:40] <Upu> Sonde or do you mean 434 ?
[09:40] <SpeedEvil> Joel_re: layout is - moderately - annoying
[09:40] <Joel_re> 434
[09:41] <SpeedEvil> The bare amplifier chip is reasonably priced. But without a filter will have very bad sensitivity
[09:41] <Upu> ok
[09:41] <SpeedEvil> err
[09:41] <SpeedEvil> jammability
[09:41] <Upu> you can have the amp as a bare board with 10% off it
[09:41] <Upu> relatively cheap
[09:41] <Upu> otherwise someone posted a link to a cheap thing a while back
[09:41] Nick change: ms7821_ -> ms7821
[09:43] <Upu> can't find the link in my history
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[09:43] <Joel_re> hmm, let me see
[09:44] <Upu> it didn't have a saw filter on it
[09:44] <Upu> but did have some passives on there
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[09:47] <Gadget-Work> Quick question, whats the coldest temp AA batteries have worked at for HAB ?
[09:47] <Upu> -60 and lower
[09:47] <Upu> but internal resistance goes up
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[09:48] <Upu> SNOW probably saw -60 and lower
[09:48] <Upu> if you look at the telemetry you can see the voltage drop very low on the way down and recover slightly
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[09:49] <eroomde> worth noting that ambient temp and the temp of the chemsitry are not the same thing
[09:49] <eroomde> especially in thin atmospheres
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> It's annoying that conductivity of air remains unchanged in this region.
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> At least for macroscopic objects
[09:50] <SpeedEvil> Convection goes _way_ down
[09:51] <Joel_re> is it worth recording/monitoring battery voltage levels
[09:51] <Joel_re> should be interesting right?
[09:51] <Upu> the battery on SNOW wasn't insulated at all
[09:51] <Joel_re> I was planning on using the http://www.ti.com/product/ina219
[09:52] <Gadget-Work> Upu, got a url for the telemetry ?
[09:52] <Upu> sec
[09:52] <Joel_re> Ti was nice enough to send me samples :D
[09:53] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/SNOW.csv
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[09:54] <Upu> note the voltage was considerably lower than normal for most of the flight
[09:54] <Upu> and dropped to 0.9v around the time the GPS also conked out
[09:55] <SpeedEvil> Joel_re: It's interesting in principle - it eliminates some possible flight issues debugging
[09:55] <Upu> the battery on PAVA insulated lasted twice as long and didnt' drop below 1.4v until the last few hours
[09:55] <Joel_re> ok
[09:58] <Upu> On the same day I think Leo's balloons were reporting -70
[09:58] <Upu> its the first time I've seen a ublox get knocked out by cold
[09:59] <Upu> if it was cold but given the battery voltage I suspecting it was
[09:59] <Upu> note radio continued to transmit fine
[10:00] <Joel_re> was it in a foam box?
[10:01] <Upu> no it was in the nose of a paper plane
[10:01] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/IMG_1558.jpg
[10:01] <eroomde> it doesn't matter if the battery is insulted or not
[10:01] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: they're all bastards.
[10:01] <nats`> don't beat your battery !
[10:02] <eroomde> or rather, that's not the determining factor as to whether or not the internal temp is the same as ambient
[10:02] <eroomde> what's important is the self heating from I^2R losses
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[10:05] <Upu> As maybe but wouldn't you concur the abnormally low voltage (normally at 12 hours run time its 1.4v) the GPS flaking out and the voltage increasing when it hit lower warmer air would indicate, though not prove, it probably got very cold
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[10:12] <Chetic> how do you guys secure your hardware to the styrofoam?
[10:13] <Upu> cut the foam to size
[10:13] <Upu> so it holds it in place
[10:14] <ibanezmatt13> I route out moulds in the foam sheet to hold the components in place, then secure it with a piece of foam on top to sandwich it in
[10:14] <Upu> see Matts pics
[10:14] <ibanezmatt13> http://www.flickr.com/photos/97969402@N03/
[10:14] <nats`> use super glue :D
[10:14] <nats`> (don't in fact)
[10:15] <ibanezmatt13> this one Chetic http://flic.kr/p/jge5WD
[10:18] <ibanezmatt13> oh I don't believe this, apparently I have to create a new BT email address otherwise everything on my flickr will be lost. Drat
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[10:19] <Upu> morning Leo
[10:19] <LeoBodnar> morning!
[10:23] <nats`> morning leo
[10:24] <Chetic> oh damn, you guys all cut out holes and squeeze your gear in
[10:24] <SpeedEvil> Morning
[10:24] <Chetic> I was thinking of securing it with wire or something
[10:24] <SpeedEvil> Chetic: there are many ways to do it that will work
[10:25] <ibanezmatt13> So long as it survives being thrown down the stairs, it's generally ok
[10:25] <Chetic> is temperature really not an issue?
[10:25] <Chetic> the wire would require holes to the outside
[10:26] <SpeedEvil> Conduction along wires basically sucks.
[10:26] <Joel_re> awesome packagin
[10:27] <Joel_re> is that the antenna at the bottom of the box?
[10:27] <Joel_re> for 434Mhz
[10:28] <ibanezmatt13> mine? yeah
[10:30] <craag> ibanezmatt13: Impressive packaging of the camera, tracker board and batteries, very neat!
[10:30] <ibanezmatt13> thanks!
[10:30] <ibanezmatt13> I wanted to prove to my Dad that I could actually do something practical
[10:33] <Chetic> SpeedEvil: I was thinking of the physical hole to the outer world which is supposedly pretty cold at the edge of the stratosphere or whatchacallit
[10:33] <SpeedEvil> Chetic: you can pack it with a scrap of fabric
[10:33] <SpeedEvil> Or, indeed ram loose polystyrene into it
[10:33] <DL1SGP> well done ibanezmatt13
[10:34] <Chetic> SpeedEvil: won't be airtight ofc
[10:34] <ibanezmatt13> thanks DL1SGP :) Just need some nice weather now
[10:34] <Chetic> guess I'm being overly cautious again
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[10:35] <DL1SGP> come over here :) it is sunny today, pretty snow
[10:35] <ibanezmatt13> It might well end up over there if the winds stay like this :P
[10:36] <DL1SGP> oww if it gets close I am sure that I would try to recover it for you :)
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[10:37] <ibanezmatt13> lol, thanks Felix :) I think I'd have to postpone I'm afraid if it's set to land out of the UK
[10:37] <Joel_re> where do you guys source helium from?
[10:37] <Joel_re> and whats it composition
[10:37] <ibanezmatt13> I'm going H2 this time. Aiming for 37km in only 1.5 hours
[10:38] <gonzo__> what country are you in Joel_re
[10:38] <Joel_re> gonzo__: India
[10:38] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpls/abs_all.jsp?arnumber=1309030&tag=1
[10:39] <gonzo__> not sure we have anyone else from India in the chan. If so they may speak up and advise
[10:39] <SpeedEvil> Joel_re: pretty much any helium will do.
[10:39] <SpeedEvil> Joel_re: If it's diluted with air - the air means you have effectively less available lift before the balloon bursts.
[10:40] <Joel_re> hmm
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> hydrogen is quite usable, though does raise flammability concerns.
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> Joel_re: Are balloon releases at weddings common
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> ?
[10:40] <Joel_re> SpeedEvil: yes
[10:40] <Joel_re> very
[10:40] <eroomde> Upu: sure
[10:40] <SpeedEvil> Perhaps worthwhile looking there as a supplier
[10:40] <Joel_re> cool idea
[10:41] <Joel_re> thanks
[10:41] <gonzo__> the mix sold as 'balloon gas' has quite a lot of air in, to stop people sulfocating theselves when they mess about with it. Helium from an industrial supplier should be pretty pure
[10:41] <eroomde> i'm just saying that when people say 'the batteries got to -x' where -x was the measure air temperature, they're usually wrong
[10:41] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: looks like the incoherent A-GPS idea is well known
[10:41] <LeoBodnar> heh
[10:41] <Laurenceb> so it should work :P
[10:41] <Upu> yup fair enough eroomde
[10:41] <Laurenceb> i see quite a lot of stuff on ieeexplore
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[10:42] <LeoBodnar> do you have subscription?
[10:42] <eroomde> eg most lithium battery electrolytes will be just frozen at -60
[10:42] <gonzo__> (there was a youtube video where they had H2 balloons at a wedding, in a net over the ceremony. Think it spoiled their day a bit!
[10:42] <Laurenceb> its less energy efficient tho
[10:42] <eroomde> which would be game-over
[10:42] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: yes
[10:42] <eroomde> this shit is important to me as it's the same deal with rocket engines
[10:42] <Laurenceb> you would be better collecting a few ms of data and running the processor for longer
[10:43] <Laurenceb> but its still >100 times less energy/fix than ublox
[10:43] <Laurenceb> and makes the code easier and more "stateless"
[10:43] <Laurenceb> as you dont need to track TCXO
[10:43] <eroomde> there's lots of literature where people state the propellants were injected at some temperature, where they just measyursuyred the tank temperature, not the temperature at the injectors. and that makes a big difference, and causes their conclusions to often be wrong. I'm having exactly this problem right now with N20
[10:44] <Laurenceb> thermocouples?
[10:44] <eroomde> what about them?
[10:45] <Laurenceb> make that an easy problem to solve?
[10:45] <eroomde> having said the above pouint it's super-worth reference rule 16 of akin's laws of spacecraft design, of which i have a copy printed on my wall
[10:45] <eroomde> http://spacecraft.ssl.umd.edu/akins_laws.html
[10:45] <LeoBodnar> can you get this pdf off ieeexplore ;p
[10:45] <eroomde> Laurenceb: it's not an engineering problem
[10:46] <eroomde> it's just a problem of people being confused about measurements
[10:46] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: 16 - especially when technology has moved and their fundamental assumptions are screwy
[10:46] <eroomde> yes
[10:46] <SpeedEvil> On a related note - I think I have a design for a working HF variac with about 12 components.
[10:47] <eroomde> although given it's all just funadamental physics or chemistry usually, that doesn't happen so much in rockets
[10:47] <SpeedEvil> That is - mains out
[10:47] <LeoBodnar> maybe not
[10:48] <LeoBodnar> they are having a rough go with noncoherent approach and then clean it up with coherent search it seems?
[10:48] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: I guess cheap CFD helps quite a bit. As can inspection and nd manufacturing
[10:48] <eroomde> rule 20 is especially, depressingly truwe
[10:48] <eroomde> SpeedEvil: i hate CFD
[10:48] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: yeha
[10:48] <eroomde> so much easier to just build the damn thing and instrument it
[10:48] <SpeedEvil> eroomde: It seems lovely at telling you lovely answers.
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[10:51] <LeoBodnar> We need an equivalent of Bob Pease of in the are of fluid/aero dynamics
[10:51] <LeoBodnar> correct();
[10:51] <eroomde> they exist
[10:51] <eroomde> it's just not a field that gets written about so much
[10:52] <eroomde> one of them works for reaction engines :)
[10:52] <eroomde> but yeah, they'll all be holed up in skunkworks or rel or somewhere, doing good works but without the world knowing
[10:53] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: sorry i need to do a powerpoint on chicken torture
[10:53] <Laurenceb> bbl
[10:53] <nats`> bob pease fairchild ?
[10:53] <nats`> :)
[10:54] <LeoBodnar> heh yeah
[10:54] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: If you place them upside down - they become hypnotised for 20 mins
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[10:55] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: That is - chickens, not presentees.
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[12:10] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
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[12:24] <SpeedEvil> Lunar_LanderU: Hello.
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[13:07] <Laurenceb> back
[13:10] <Laurenceb> http://gps.mae.cornell.edu/humphreys_etal_iongnss2005a.pdf
[13:10] <Laurenceb> interesting
[13:10] <Laurenceb> figure 9, I spot use of octave
[13:11] <Laurenceb> Leobodnar: http://aoss-research.engin.umich.edu/missions/cygnss/reference/spaceborne-observations/Gleason-etal_UKDMC-First-Light_TGRS-43-6_2005.pdf
[13:12] <Laurenceb> they use 100ms incoherent integration
[13:12] <Laurenceb> but for bistatic radar
[13:18] <eroomde> BeoLodnar- ping
[13:19] <Laurenceb> ?
[13:19] <Laurenceb> oh hes gone
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> I've never properly understood how the ionosphere works.
[13:23] <Darkside> the basic model is pretty simple to understand
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> Is it basically a frequency dependant delay varying on path?
[13:23] <Darkside> well
[13:23] <Darkside> its a bit more than that
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> And ionospheric 'weather'
[13:23] <Darkside> for for a spot frequency, you can model it as a multi-tap comb filter with varying amplitudes
[13:23] <SpeedEvil> yeah - I know roughly how the ionosphere behaves.
[13:24] <Darkside> hold on
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right.
[13:24] <Darkside> yeah
[13:24] <Darkside> thats basically it
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> Oh...
[13:24] <Darkside> but theres also doppler spread, phase distortion, delay spread
[13:24] <Darkside> and it all varies with time
[13:24] <Darkside> and with solar weather
[13:24] <Darkside> and all sorts of other stuff
[13:24] <SpeedEvil> So it's star flicker caused not by thermal air, but by refractive index varying by ionisation?
[13:24] <Darkside> er
[13:24] <Darkside> i guess
[13:25] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[13:25] <Darkside> at higher frequencies it has less of an effect
[13:26] <SpeedEvil> I guess this implies that in principle if you're aquiring via FFT - you'd get better performance if you skew the FFT in the right way - rather than assume it's in-vacuum.
[13:27] <SpeedEvil> I am not smart enough to work out what it does in the time domain
[13:27] <SpeedEvil> I guess instead of a nice half-sine or square or whatever pulse as a correlator output, you get instead all the frequency components of that pulse smeared as expected by the ionosphere.
[13:28] <SpeedEvil> Actually - that was easier than I thought
[13:29] <Darkside> thers a number of different ways of modelling the ionosphere
[13:29] <Darkside> lots of papers on it
[13:29] <Darkside> i've been working on a baseband simulator for HF data comms work, which uss raytracing as the data source
[13:29] <SpeedEvil> Funky
[13:30] <Darkside> so for each step in the simulation i do ray-homing through an ionosphere model, and calculate the channel parameters from that
[13:30] <Darkside> it means i can put perturbations in the ionosphere, and look at how they effect a baseband signal as they move through
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[13:32] <Darkside> anyway, the ionosphere dos weird stuff to EM waves
[13:32] <Darkside> :P
[13:37] <SpeedEvil> Darkside: Did I link you to that 'reinventing digital audio for hams' youtube?
[13:41] <Darkside> nope
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codec2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=hhEkzwWIIoc#t=547
[13:48] <SpeedEvil> Bruce Perens on it - fun talk
[13:49] <SpeedEvil> 1200bps digital voice over a small spectrum
[13:50] <Darkside> lol
[13:50] <Darkside> uhm
[13:50] <Darkside> i went camping with david rowe last weekend
[13:50] <Darkside> well, the weekend before
[13:50] <Darkside> he lives in adelaide, we're friends
[13:50] <SpeedEvil> ah :)
[13:51] <Darkside> and i use freeDV often :P
[13:51] <Darkside> you'll find me mentiond on david rowe's blog a few times :P
[13:52] <Darkside> as i helped in the testing phases
[13:53] <SpeedEvil> yeah - doing some teeny bts of research it seems it's not quite as new as I'd thought
[13:53] Action: SpeedEvil wishes CSD was available over most phones.
[13:54] <SpeedEvil> ('pure' data)
[13:54] <Laurenceb> yeah my phone gives error when i try it
[13:55] Action: SpeedEvil looks at his phones I2C bus, and ponders a HF other half.
[14:01] Action: Joel_re wonders which phone SpeedEvil has
[14:04] Action: DL1SGP uses FreeDV frequently
[14:05] <SpeedEvil> Jolla phone.
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> There is a (documented by the maker) I2C bus on the back
[14:06] <SpeedEvil> It's basically 'normal' linux - with the ability to run android apps
[14:11] <gonzo__> I have listened on 20mtrs for dv, but it's s9 noise there
[14:15] Action: craag got a 1200bps codec2 bitstream losslessly compressed down even further
[14:16] <craag> With VLEC coding.
[14:16] <eroomde> me: "Do you have any ex demo units?"
[14:16] <craag> Unfortunately it takes the whole CBR out of it, so isn't that useful.
[14:17] <eroomde> company: "Yes we do"
[14:17] <eroomde> me: "cool, how much?"
[14:17] <eroomde> company: "We'll give you 5% off the list price!"
[14:17] <eroomde> f**king chancers
[14:17] <craag> hahaha
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[14:27] <SpeedEvil> craag: yeah - if you're going to be transmitting iterror free, you wouldn't do that
[14:27] <SpeedEvil> craag: you'd rip out the data properly to remove the redundant stuff, then compress.
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> (ideally)
[14:28] <SpeedEvil> Encryption is obvious at that point too
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[14:32] <craag> SpeedEvil: The main area was that the MSBs of some of the coefficients were nearly always 0
[14:33] <craag> For a large range of inputs.
[14:34] <craag> I got a static VLC lookup table to give 14% gain across nearly all of the audio samples.
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> craag: yeah
[14:35] <SpeedEvil> craag: also,JPEG
[14:36] <Darkside> craag: david rowe is often on this network btw
[14:36] <Darkside> in #freedv
[14:36] <Darkside> so you could chat to him about that
[14:37] <craag> Darkside: This was about a year ago and I've been a bit detached from development since, so would need to check it's still valid with the latest encoder, but will bear it in mind for when I have time!
[14:38] <Darkside> mmk
[14:38] <Darkside> night all
[14:38] <craag> gn!
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[15:53] <InfoAbourIrc> Here info of irc http://p.pw/DLV
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[15:54] <nats`> what are those spam bot
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[15:58] Nick change: crash_18974_ -> crash_18974
[16:00] <fsphil> spambot? sheesh, that's very 1990's
[16:01] <nats`> 90's best decade !
[16:02] #highaltitude: mode change '+o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
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[16:05] <mattbrejza> that ip has also been spamming other channels under a different nick
[16:05] <eroomde> sigh
[16:05] #highaltitude: mode change '+o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[16:05] #highaltitude: mode change '+b *!*@87.223.2.255' by eroomde!~ed@kraken.habhub.org
[16:06] #highaltitude: mode change '-o eroomde' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[16:06] <mattbrejza> :)
[16:06] <nats`> eroomde you should ban 87.0.0.0 MOUHAHAHAHA BOFH is so BOFH :D
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[16:09] <eroomde> i think i should do as little operating as possible, is what i think
[16:09] <eroomde> only what helps to keep unwanted contributions away
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[16:13] <Laurenceb> note to self: do not try to plot 10^8 points in gnuplot
[16:13] <Hix> little excessive
[16:13] <fsphil> you're missing the point
[16:14] <Laurenceb> im missing the ram too
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[16:15] <eroomde> yeah it gets upset
[16:15] <eroomde> tried plotting a 3d representation of signal aquisition once
[16:15] <eroomde> it took about 25mins to render
[16:15] <eroomde> on a core i5 machine with 16gb of ram
[16:15] <eroomde> bit feeble
[16:18] <Laurenceb> i cant even kill it
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[16:18] <Laurenceb> aha
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[16:19] <Laurenceb> killed it by jtag halting the processor it was trying to core dump to the flash memory of
[16:19] <Laurenceb> dont ask
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[16:20] <eroomde> jesus
[16:20] <eroomde> i cannot possibly fathom what kind of setup you have
[16:20] <Laurenceb> micro mounting its flash memory as mass storage, then gnuplot comes along
[16:21] <Laurenceb> and plots the data
[16:21] <Laurenceb> or not...
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[16:30] <jededu> Hi need some advice on payload recovery does anybody have any experience with the SPOT gps
[16:30] <WillTablet> So the stem thing was rubbish
[16:31] <WillTablet> But I had a nice QSO on SN then simplex
[16:31] <mattbrejza> did you visit that construction site for some flats?
[16:31] <eroomde> jededu: did we not have this exact conversation yesterday?
[16:32] <jededu> No
[16:32] <eroomde> or was that someone else?
[16:32] <eroomde> must have eben someone else
[16:32] <eroomde> the conclusion: crap vs radio beacon
[16:32] <jededu> Not me 0:
[16:32] <jededu> Not for tracking for location
[16:33] <jededu> Im trackilg with radio
[16:33] <eroomde> same thing...
[16:33] <jededu> Just for locating on the ground
[16:34] <eroomde> might be useful as a backup
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[16:34] <eroomde> wouldn't rely on it though, better to chase it and stay close enough to get close enough to hear it on the ground
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[16:35] <jededu> More fun :)
[16:35] <fsphil> very true
[16:35] <fsphil> unless it's coming down nere water
[16:35] <fsphil> or a forest :)
[16:35] <fsphil> or a flooded forest
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[16:36] <eroomde> very few people use them, and recover just fine]
[16:36] <jededu> Ok ill go with that
[16:37] <fsphil> the one time I used a spot beacon, it didn't work
[16:37] <eroomde> habbers are evolved well to spot bacon though
[16:37] <fsphil> mmm
[16:37] <daveake> Thing is .. why add an expensive backup (spot) to recover a payload that probably cost you less than the spot did?
[16:37] <jededu> True
[16:37] <daveake> they're unreliable enough to make it not worth doing
[16:37] <fsphil> this particular one had three gopros
[16:38] <daveake> Yes with 3 gopros I'd want a backup tracker
[16:38] <daveake> which would be a second radio :)
[16:38] <fsphil> technically my radio was the backup
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[16:38] <fsphil> at least that's what the bbc wanted to believe :)
[16:38] <DL1SGP> hehe, fsphil and daveake
[16:38] <daveake> I do like to fly backup radio trackers
[16:39] <daveake> Twice I've needed them
[16:39] <daveake> Same problem both times
[16:39] <daveake> RP-SMA grrrrr
[16:39] <eroomde> just a 1hz beacon is enough to track and recover a hab over an area the size of east anglia
[16:39] <fsphil> you won't make that mistake again. probably
[16:39] <eroomde> as has been shown a couple of times
[16:39] <daveake> p[robably
[16:39] <daveake> annoying that I made it more than once
[16:40] <nosebleed> yo
[16:40] <daveake> oh, and there's the time that Upu's tracker was the backup ...
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[16:40] <daveake> ... after his camera killed my one :/
[16:40] <Upu> haha
[16:40] <fsphil> never gets old that
[16:40] <daveake> ^^
[16:40] <fsphil> afternoon nosebleed
[16:40] Action: fsphil hands nosebleed a tissue
[16:40] <nosebleed> lol, there we are again
[16:41] <fsphil> been a while :)
[16:41] <chrisstubbs> got the package today upu, cheers!
[16:41] <Upu> nps
[16:41] <nosebleed> yeah, from the moment my irc was broken at home
[16:41] <chrisstubbs> Now at least one of my payloads shouldnt be horrible and drifty ;)
[16:41] <nosebleed> now i will try remain here from webchat.freenode.net
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[16:45] <ibanezmatt13> just had 2 mock exams: stats 1 followed immediately by decision 1. My brain ceases to function
[16:49] <DL1SGP> the good thing that if you notice that your brain ceases to function you can be relatively sure it still is there... and no worries I am sure you gonna make it ibanezmatt13
[16:50] <ibanezmatt13> it's definitely still here, despite its lack of functionality. :-) We'll see...
[16:52] <ibanezmatt13> I quite dislike decision maths, with all the algorithm stuff tbh. Stats is actually good as it's interesting, but then again it's really hard. Pure maths is not too bad, once you know all the algebraic laws and things. I look forward to see what mechanics is like :)
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[16:53] <jededu> Backup radio it is then arduino i think
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[17:00] <LeoBodnar> eroomde have you figured out exact physics of avalanche in BJTs?
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[17:01] <LeoBodnar> details are very sketchy as it is not really an intended operation mode
[17:02] <chrisstubbs> ibanezmatt13 how are you getting on with CHDK?
[17:02] <LeoBodnar> even avalanche voltage is often unknown
[17:02] <ibanezmatt13> Hi chrisstubbs. Quite well actually, I've got it recording a 2 minute script, saving it, starting another, etc. Good enough for flight I think :)
[17:02] <chrisstubbs> cool
[17:02] <chrisstubbs> did you make a battery holder?
[17:03] <ibanezmatt13> no, I tested it on 2 lithium AAs
[17:03] <ibanezmatt13> got overAgot just over 3 hours
[17:03] <Willdude123> So, I have this friend, who is interested in doing amateur radio, but his parents are concerned. Anyone know of a good youtube video or article I could tell him to show them?
[17:03] <chrisstubbs> cool!
[17:03] <chrisstubbs> Willdude, http://www.youtube.com/user/EssexHams do some quite good videos
[17:04] <ibanezmatt13> I figured that just over 3 hours down here, gives me enough time to play with at least up to the burst which is the bit we want
[17:04] <chrisstubbs> like what to expect in the course etc
[17:04] <LeoBodnar> Tony Hancock?
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[17:16] <Willdude> thanks chrisstubbs
[17:18] <mattbrejza> there was also a bbc video some time back
[17:18] <mattbrejza> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-24917880
[17:21] <eroomde> http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm
[17:22] <eroomde> adamgreig: ^
[17:24] <mattbrejza> due to all the crap written on the internet relating to audio its actually quite hard to tell whether troll or not
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[17:24] <eroomde> they actually sell them and talk about them
[17:25] <eroomde> in fora
[17:26] <mattbrejza> somewhat concerning
[17:27] <adamgreig> The original glass bottles for Brilliant Pebbles have been replaced by clear zip lock bags, which have a more linear response than glass.
[17:27] <adamgreig> wonderful
[17:29] <eroomde> this guy must be having some fun
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[17:29] <LeoBodnar> consider everything on internet as trollism and occasional useful info as a bug
[17:29] <jonsowman> excellent eroomde :D
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[17:31] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: I don't know, you should see some of the stuff on the net
[17:31] <eroomde> in audiophile forums
[17:31] <LazyLeopard> Hmmm... As videos on amateur radio go, I figure that one's not unrepresentative. ;)
[17:31] <eroomde> there really are some extremely deluded people
[17:32] <daveake> Not sure whether to go and troll them, or just sell to them
[17:32] <daveake> Latter is attractive
[17:32] <eroomde> observe:
[17:32] <eroomde> http://www.soundstage.com/equipment/shunyata_dark_field.htm
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[17:36] <daveake> http://anythingbutipod.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/xkcd-audiophiles.png
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[17:55] <nats`> eroomde please tell me this is a joke
[17:56] <eroomde> no
[17:56] <eroomde> nor is the vomit in your mouth
[17:56] <LeoBodnar> this is a joke
[17:56] <daveake> audiophiles don't joke
[17:56] <LeoBodnar> ^this was a joke
[17:56] <eroomde> the speaker cable stand stuff isn't
[17:56] <nats`> this must be a joke but when I read some review about wondersupermegahyper anti noise rca cable....
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[17:57] <nats`> The premise for elevating cables off the floor relates to mechanical isolation from floor-borne vibrations and electrical isolation from static imbalances that may be present on the flooring surface. Certainly both forms of interference can wreak havoc on other of our audio components, so why not cables? However, one might expect the type of floor, its covering and the construction of
[17:57] <nats`> the cable all to play a role in how effective or necessary these cable lifters are.
[17:57] <nats`> this is a joke !
[17:57] <nats`> definitely
[17:57] <daveake> nope
[17:57] <nats`> who the hell will listen to that crap ! oO
[17:58] <eroomde> audiophiles
[17:58] <Oddstr13> nats`: ofcourse it is a joke, but he's not joking :P
[17:58] <nats`> I need to change my career and business
[17:58] <nats`> I have gold to do !
[17:59] <mattbrejza> step 1) buy a few kilos of rocks for £5
[17:59] <mattbrejza> 2) make a bs website
[17:59] <mattbrejza> 3) ...
[17:59] <mattbrejza> 4) profit
[18:00] <eroomde> equations and diagrams of atom packing are good
[18:00] <nats`> do a good graph in ltspice will help
[18:00] <nats`> !
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[18:01] <nats`> As the two types of foam have different resonant frequencies, vibrations within the elevator itself are also eliminated.
[18:01] <nats`> best sentence ever
[18:01] <eroomde> yes i loved that
[18:01] <nats`> if your power cable vibrate because of electricity maybe it's the output of the nuclear power plant
[18:02] <daveake> My audio listening experience has been much improved since we switched to wind power
[18:02] <nats`> you mean you can't listen on any system sinking more than 3Watt :p
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[18:04] <nats`> shunyata.com/index.php/accessories-footer/124-darkfield-mini
[18:04] <nats`> OMG that's not a joke !
[18:04] <nats`> it exists !
[18:05] <eroomde> yes
[18:05] <eroomde> this is all for real
[18:05] <nats`> stop everything we will rise from zero a new audio company !
[18:06] <nats`> -- Patent Pending -- <= seriously -_-
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[18:06] <mattbrejza> you could also get a cheap class D amp, put it in a wooden case with a valve sticking out the top, and sell it for 10x what you would otherwise sell it for
[18:06] <mattbrejza> and throw in a free bag of rocks
[18:07] <nats`> Most importantly, the performance of the new DFE v2 has been extensively tested, compared and proven to outperform the original DFE's by a substantial margin. Only two aspects of the design have not changed; the original patent-pended concept and the reasonable retail price!
[18:07] <nats`> patent pended concept for styrofoam elevator
[18:07] <nats`> ...
[18:07] <nats`> oky time to go home and watch porn
[18:07] <nats`> see ya later guyz
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[18:11] <ibanezmatt13> wow, my 80 year old grandma just video called me on Skype...
[18:14] <gonzo_> that's an admission that we did not need!
[18:14] <gonzo_> I'm watching engineering porn, cnc milling
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[18:52] <alfie275> Hello, is anyone online?
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[18:53] <DL1SGP1> alfie275: if you have a question please ask directly, anyone in here that is able to answer will possibly do so, no need to ask if you could ask which is asking already :)
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[18:54] <alfie275> Ah okay :) Me and a friend (he is on here as Electronics) are trying to get SSDV to work with fldigi and a raspi
[18:54] <alfie275> We can transmit text fine
[18:54] <S_Mark> What are you using to test this?
[18:54] <S_Mark> stty?
[18:55] <Electronics> Well we're setting the baud rate etc with stty and transmitting with RTTY
[18:56] <S_Mark> whats the prob with the images?
[18:56] <alfie275> The SSDV receiver widget in dl-fldigi doesn't seem to detect the packets/signal
[18:56] <alfie275> Is there a way to save the packets from dl-fldigi straight to a file?
[18:56] <S_Mark> so you have run your image through the ssdv program?
[18:56] <alfie275> Yeah
[18:57] <alfie275> Then transmitted it, but the receiving seems not to work
[18:57] <alfie275> We're definitely getting data, as seen by the text output window
[18:58] <S_Mark> One thing that I spent ages on Saturday when I ran into a similar issue was that I hadn't set my serial port into raw mode
[18:58] <S_Mark> I was using ssty to transmit the binary file from the ssdv prog as a test
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[18:58] <S_Mark> and it wasn't working - a few bits of image here and thre
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[18:58] <S_Mark> there
[18:58] <alfie275> How do you set the serial port into raw mode?
[18:58] <S_Mark> but then set as raw mode and all worked
[18:59] <S_Mark> stty -F /dev/ttyAMA0 raw
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[19:00] <alfie275> Okay, we're trying that
[19:00] <S_Mark> you have got the ssdv viewer up on fldigi yeah?
[19:00] <Electronics> Yep
[19:01] <fsphil> make sure you're in 8-bit mode, no parity and at least 1.5 stop bits
[19:01] <Electronics> got all that
[19:02] <mfa298> dont forget you need to configure the same baud/bits etc. on both the Pi and dl-fldigi.
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[19:02] <fsphil> yea that too. if you're decoding text then that bit at least should be ok
[19:04] <fsphil> ls -lh
[19:04] <fsphil> er
[19:04] <mfa298> .
[19:04] <mfa298> ..
[19:04] <mfa298> hab stuff
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[19:07] <alfie275> hmm, so far no luck :/
[19:08] <fsphil> how are you sending the binary file?
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[19:09] <Electronics> I'm writing the output of the ssdv program straight into /dev/ttyAMA0, I've also tried cat
[19:09] <S_Mark> how are you setting the serial port settings?
[19:09] <mfa298> Electronics: have you killed the various things that normally try and talk to the uart (getty, kernel bootup)
[19:09] <S_Mark> ah yeah
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[19:10] <Electronics> stty 300 cs8 cstopb -parenb -F /dev/ttyAMA0 raw
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[19:15] <fsphil> what does "stty -F /dev/ttyAMA0" say?
[19:15] <fsphil> I think that dumps the current config
[19:16] <daveake> btw you can do < instead of -F #savethosekeystrokes
[19:16] <Electronics> speed 300 baud; line = 0;
[19:16] <Electronics> min = 1; time = 0;
[19:16] <Electronics> -brkint -icrnl -imaxbel
[19:16] <Electronics> -opost
[19:16] <Electronics> -isig -icanon
[19:17] <fsphil> was wondering why that command didn't work on my laptop, before remembering it doesn't actually have a serial port
[19:17] <daveake> ha!
[19:20] <fsphil> stty isn't a very nice command
[19:20] <daveake> stty +h +i
[19:21] <mfa298> just don't forget to specify the serial port when setting things or you'll find your terminal gets interesting.
[19:22] <fsphil> this is the output from my pi: http://pastebin.com/kzMbXSdE
[19:22] <fsphil> but I can't test this is actually correct, there's no ntx2 wired up to it
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[19:24] <DL1SGP1> Guten Abend Kevin
[19:25] <Lunar_Lander> hallo
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[19:30] Nick change: DL1SGP2 -> DL1SGP
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[19:35] <smrtz> Hey, UpuWork, Upu_M0UPU, you done any work with the new uBlox chips?
[19:38] <Electronics> Ok, so when I send a file, dldigi is either decoding it wrong or it's getting messed up on the transmit end. The text I get out of fldigi is consistant but the widget in fldigi shows nothing and decoding the received text externally returns no packets...
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[19:38] <fsphil> Electronics: can you make a recording, I can test it here
[19:39] <fsphil> and upload the binary file used somewhere
[19:39] <mfa298> Electronics: are you able to record the audio you're receiving and make it available, then someone else can try decoding it
[19:40] <Upu_M0UPU> which chips smrtz ?
[19:41] <smrtz> the serise 8
[19:41] <smrtz> ?
[19:41] <Upu_M0UPU> not out yet
[19:41] Nick change: Upu_M0UPU -> Upu
[19:41] <Upu> I've requested samples
[19:42] <smrtz> Have you looked at the whitepaper/datasheets yet?
[19:42] <Upu> some yes
[19:42] <smrtz> any thoughts/
[19:42] <Upu> nothing in there that will benefit HAB really
[19:42] <smrtz> Ahh, ok.
[19:42] <Upu> the EVA may have about 2mA less current usage
[19:43] <Upu> but thats about it
[19:43] <smrtz> That's all I saw too.
[19:43] <Upu> its all concurrent support for GLONASS, Bedouwhatever
[19:43] <Upu> at the moment you can do GPS or GLONASS
[19:43] <Upu> the 8 series can do both I think
[19:43] <Upu> at the same time
[19:43] <craag> less hot fix bugs hopefully
[19:43] <Upu> but don't quote me on that
[19:44] <Upu> GPS or GLONASS
[19:44] <Upu> [19:43] <Upu> the 8 series can do both I t
[19:44] <Upu> sorry
[19:44] <craag> Yes it can do GPS/GL simultaneously
[19:44] <Upu> BeiDou
[19:45] <Upu> but as with everything ublox
[19:45] <Upu> announcement to actual ability to buy is about 12 months
[19:45] <Upu> I've been promised samples of the EVA in April
[19:45] <Upu> my breath is not being held
[19:46] <craag> Hopefully the datasheet will be updated to include '100% less inability-to-fix around Southampton'
[19:46] <LeoBodnar> I'd rather it do one but better
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[19:47] Action: Willdude123 wonders why his PC can handle BF4 but not FSX at more than 10FPS
[19:47] <Upu> Willdude123 topic pls
[19:47] <Upu> hows the home brew GPS coming along LeoBodnar ?
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[19:49] <LeoBodnar> mostly discussing it
[19:49] <DL1SGP> heh soon on the market, LeoBLOX :)
[19:49] <Lunar_Lander> evening Phil, Leo and Anthony
[19:49] <Upu> Hi Lunar
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[19:50] <Willdude123> Upu, I think you get it if you do /topic
[19:50] <Willdude123> :P
[19:50] <Upu> 404
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[19:51] <Willdude123> What about 403?
[19:51] <Willdude123> *404
[19:51] <LeoBodnar> Hi Lunar_Lander
[19:51] Action: mfa298 suspects the lack of question mark on Upu's statement was intentional :p
[19:52] <Willdude123> Anyhow
[19:53] <Electronics> Ok, this is a 16x16 image at 600 baud, 8 bits per character, no parity bits, 2 stop bits: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ouundp28860f6tu/capture.wav
[19:55] <daveake> 600? You had 300 set in stty earlier
[19:55] <Electronics> I set it at 600
[19:55] <Electronics> worked fine sending text
[19:55] <Electronics> no dropped bits
[19:55] <mfa298> what shift is i supposed to have ?
[19:56] <daveake> You said 300 here
[19:56] <S_Mark> Shift doesnt look right to mw
[19:56] <S_Mark> me
[19:56] <Electronics> I had about 230 shift
[19:56] <daveake> not enough
[19:56] <daveake> shift needs to be >= baud
[19:56] <Lunar_Lander> hi dave
[19:57] <mfa298> looking at that wav file either the shift is way too small or part of the signal isn't getting through
[19:57] <daveake> hi LL
[19:57] <S_Mark> try 600
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> the Raspberry car computer your show on your blog
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> does it actually receive the telemetry directly from the radio?
[19:57] <Willdude123> daveake: going for your 2E0 any time soon?
[19:57] <Lunar_Lander> or is it connected to your "big" car PC?
[19:58] <daveake> I'm already a 2E
[19:58] <daveake> LL it needs a PC running dl-fldigi
[19:58] <Lunar_Lander> ah, thanks
[19:58] <fsphil> Electronics: the shift should be at least what the baud rate is
[19:58] <mfa298> Electronics: it would also help to record a few strings together ( possibly also send some text as well as the ssdv file)
[20:00] <Electronics> IT WORKED!
[20:00] <fsphil> lol
[20:00] <Electronics> It was the frequency shift!
[20:00] <Willdude123> daveake: ah, OK
[20:00] <Willdude123> Electronics: I love that moment when something starts working
[20:00] <Electronics> :D
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[20:13] <chrisstubbs> Rockoon folk may like this: http://bit.ly/1neAXEX
[20:13] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VMxEl_4ZU9Q#t=139
[20:13] <SpeedEvil> 12*18mm android box
[20:14] <adwiens> chris: thats awesome
[20:14] <SpeedEvil> (512M RAM, 4G ROM, 4.3 $149 (the latter is annoying)
[20:15] <chrisstubbs> Oh wow it was done by someone from flite test. they are awesome!
[20:17] <SpeedEvil> Awesome - but I wish the barrier of entry was a _lot_ higher.
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[20:28] Nick change: SAIDias -> W0OTM
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[20:35] <projectascend> Hi guys, some of you may have seen us asking questions on here the past few weeks! We plan to launch sometime this february, just waiting for the weather to clear up a bit. We just wanted to let you guys know what we are up to! you can find us on projectascend.co.uk, all our social media stuff is on there which is where we'll be posting the exact launch date! We also wondered if its common for people to track others payloa
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[20:37] <mfa298> projectascend: assuming you're doing a standard 70cms rtty transmission you're likely to get people tracking it if you announce it
[20:37] <mfa298> best place to announce a flight is the ukhas mailing list
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[20:38] <projectascend> Yeah, okay that's cool thanks
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[20:39] <mfa298> have you applied for a notam yet ?
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[20:41] <projectascend> yeah, that's all sorted. We have this week and next. Our contact at caa says he can get that extended with a couple of days notice so I'll be asking for that soon.
[20:42] <fsphil> huh, he usually only does that for people named dave
[20:42] <nats`> <gonzo_> [19:08:32] I'm watching engineering porn, cnc milling <= watching high voltage pron :)
[20:44] <daveake> hah
[20:45] <daveake> good luck with the predictions
[20:46] <projectascend> thanks! It's looking pretty windy...
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[20:53] <daveake> "... our journey to outer space"
[20:53] <daveake> <cough>
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[20:55] <daveake> Try "stratosphere", or "near space. ish"
[20:55] <adwiens> if it goes high enough it might even go into orbit :P
[20:55] <daveake> riiiiiight
[20:55] <mfa298> projectascend: if you havn't already it might be worth asking for an hourly prediction to be setup (best to ask in #habhub as it may take a while for someone able to do it to be around)
[20:55] <adwiens> but hey you have to hype it up for people somehow
[20:56] <daveake> and re the amount of helium, check your calcs against http://habhub.org/calc/
[20:56] <projectascend> hahaaa! I kneewww that would happen on here :D and thanks for links !
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[20:58] <daveake> 100 cu ft sounds too little (2.8m^3) for a 1200g balloon
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[21:00] <projectascend> Unfortunately, we are a team of 17 and not everyone has the same knowledge of the specifics as i'd like to think!.. especially people who write the blog posts! I am being told by the guy in charge of that, it's now 120
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[21:01] <daveake> By all means do your own calcs, but do check against that calculator - it's well tried and tested over many many flights
[21:01] <mikestir> we used a whole T cylinder (3.6m^3) for a 1200g
[21:02] <daveake> Underfilling would be a mistake
[21:02] <mikestir> although admitedly we went for a slightly faster than typical ascent to get a better landing zone
[21:02] <Upu> underfilling a Hwoyee 1600g is a great idea
[21:03] <Upu> highly recommended
[21:03] <Upu> </sarcasm>
[21:03] <fsphil> yes, this happens: https://secure.flickr.com/photos/fsphil/11149022746/in/set-72157638238278386
[21:04] <Upu> haha
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> xD
[21:05] <Lunar_Lander> hello 17 people of projectascend
[21:05] <projectascend> Okay thanks again! haha hello :D
[21:06] <LazyLeopard> Good flight path, fsphil. ;)
[21:10] <Willdude123> fsphil: what's bad about that?
[21:11] <fsphil> lost never to be seen again
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> it's good, he visited Hamburg!
[21:11] <Lunar_Lander> :P
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[21:19] <projectascend> How much fiddling do you think needs to be done to the funcube? Especially in FCHid?
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[21:22] <LeoBodnar> Ha! <Upu> underfilling a Hwoyee 1600g is a great idea
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[21:22] <Upu> I've never filled one correctly not even the first one where that was actually the intention :)
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[21:23] <eroomde> i lost a 1600g one
[21:24] <eroomde> it was my first hwoyee
[21:24] <Upu> expensive
[21:24] <Oddstr13> how long would it be possible to keep that thing afloat? :P
[21:24] <eroomde> first time with the large neck that was too big for the rig, just loosely taped it down
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[21:24] <eroomde> it dissappeared without about 3kg of free lift
[21:24] <mfa298> projectascend: the defaults have generally been good for me with the FCD on windows
[21:25] <Upu> dave nearly lost a finger to a 1600g with 5kg of neck lift once
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> NASA does this better.
[21:25] <eroomde> i have also lost a 3kg balloon with about 15kg of neck lift
[21:25] <eroomde> that was part of the week of hell '09
[21:25] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34cypuq8iSQ
[21:26] <Upu> probably the gas cost more than the balloon
[21:26] <eroomde> would have done if boc didn't give us all-you-can-eat :)
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[21:28] <adwiens> SpeedEvil: bahaha
[21:29] <adwiens> looks like a fairly bad day
[21:31] <LeoBodnar> lol we have same experience with 1600 but less dramatic
[21:31] <LeoBodnar> *had
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[21:32] <adwiens> SpeedEvil: the subtitles are great too (2:00)
[21:34] <LazyLeopard> Heh.
[21:34] <eroomde> with the 3kg balloon it didn't slip off the fil rig, it took half of the fill rig with it
[21:34] <eroomde> that probably landed a few hours later in god-knows-where
[21:34] <adwiens> how do you guys fill balloons? the two I've launched (1200g) we just filled a milk jug with a certain amount of water equal to the lift we needed, tied it to the neck, and filled the balloon until the jug just barely started to lift off the ground, never had any problems
[21:35] <eroomde> same
[21:35] <adwiens> tie the payload to the line, then cut off the jug, no chance for the balloon to blow away
[21:35] <adwiens> alright
[21:35] <eroomde> you have to get it off the fill tube and tied up somehow
[21:35] <Upu> two people who know what they are doing helps
[21:36] <eroomde> i should say the 2 failures i've had are out of about 80ish launches
[21:36] <adwiens> none of us had ever done it before when we did it the first time
[21:36] <Upu> and fold back the gaffer on itself to make a tab so its easy to get off
[21:36] <adwiens> but it did help that one of us was an experienced rock climber, really good at tying stuff :)
[21:36] <adwiens> he actually did all the ropes
[21:36] <Upu> eroomde is good at knots
[21:37] <eroomde> cerebral ones
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[21:38] <eroomde> the 2 failures i've had were nothing to do with knots or anything - the 3kg had so much lift it broke the fill tube, and 1.6kg ones had a neck that was much too loose for the fill rig, and it was the first time i'd used it
[21:38] <Willdude123> I'm useless at knots
[21:38] <Willdude123> Can't tie my shoelaces
[21:39] <LeoBodnar> so knots per hour is actually acceleration
[21:40] <fsphil> rock climbing not really for you Willdude123
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[21:40] <mfa298> also probably best not to do sailing
[21:40] <Willdude123> I was too busy with other things to bother learning how to tie them
[21:40] <Upu> or parachuting
[21:41] <Willdude123> Then suddenly
[21:41] <Upu> *I know you don't use knots in parachuting
[21:41] <Willdude123> I had to wear football boots
[21:41] <Willdude123> I spent a day trying it
[21:41] <jcoxon> ping LazyLeopard
[21:42] <g4sgx_lappy> upu: whats your shop url again?
[21:42] <Upu> ava.upuaut.net/store/
[21:42] <LazyLeopard> Hi jcoxon
[21:42] <g4sgx_lappy> tnx
[21:42] <Upu> nps
[21:43] <jcoxon> LazyLeopard, do you have 868 rx ability?
[21:43] <LazyLeopard> No, sorry.
[21:43] <jcoxon> okay fair enough
[21:43] <jcoxon> got my 868 sensor node outside with an antenna
[21:43] <jcoxon> wondering what sort of range i'd get
[21:44] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[21:44] <mfa298> more people need 868Mhz reception capability :)
[21:44] <jcoxon> (though you are quite far from me)
[21:44] <jcoxon> mfa298, we are working on it aren't we?
[21:44] <jcoxon> :-)
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[22:08] <projectascend> Can anyone suggest anything I can do to prevent a shambles on launch day due to 17 people wanting to be invovled?
[22:08] <Geoff-G8DHE> Launch the day before
[22:08] <jcoxon> projectascend, practice launch of the payload
[22:09] <jcoxon> as in drill powering up the payload etc
[22:09] <jcoxon> to make sure there aren't any bugs at that point
[22:10] <projectascend> thats a good plan! I think we are going to have to organise specific jobs for people, because 17 people can't all let go of the balloon haha
[22:10] <chrisstubbs> Check you are getting positions before you let go
[22:10] <chrisstubbs> checklists are good
[22:11] <eroomde> radio moniotoring team, fill team, flight train layout team
[22:11] <DL1SGP> do not check just from next to the payload if you are getting data / signal but also from the other end of the field you are launching at... avoids that you get wrong ideas if antenna lost contact to the transmitter
[22:11] S_Mark (~S_Mark@host86-156-68-99.range86-156.btcentralplus.com) joined #highaltitude.
[22:11] <DL1SGP> and possibly a PR team to inform spectators on what is going on
[22:11] <eroomde> bacon sandwiches
[22:11] <LeoBodnar> send 16 people to do range check
[22:12] <projectascend> haha, these all sound good to me!
[22:12] <DL1SGP> never forget coffee (or tea) for launch
[22:13] <mfa298> depending on transport and radio reception kit, send a couple of teams out towards the landing point in advance so they can try to catch it as it lands
[22:13] <projectascend> Yeah, we already have subteams for differnt things Cargo, PR etc . Just have to keep them all on task and XD
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[22:13] <mfa298> rather than turning up at the landing site several hours after landing (as is often the case when leaving to chase after launching)
[22:14] <projectascend> If we got footage of that...it would be awesome
[22:14] <DL1SGP> yeap we do that for our launches, several teams for retrieval are in the area of landing before we let the balloon go, especially fine for wet landings where valuable equipment might get damaged due to not being submergible
[22:16] <fsphil> power the payload and make sure it's got a gps lock before filling the balloon
[22:16] <fsphil> it would be an expensive mistake to find out there's a technical fault after filling a 1600g
[22:17] <DL1SGP> ah and make sure that the payload is properly attached to the balloon before letting go
[22:17] <fsphil> also as you have so many people, keep one of them in here to give us updates :)
[22:17] <projectascend> yeah we have pretty leds telling us when we have lock thankfully!
[22:17] <eroomde> what are those sketches of people called which are cartoony, with exaggerated features
[22:17] <eroomde> the word escapes me
[22:17] <projectascend> I 'ross' will be on here all day probably XD
[22:17] <eroomde> chariacature
[22:17] <LeoBodnar> caricatures?
[22:17] <eroomde> the word came to me
[22:17] <eroomde> always talk to a football with a face painted on
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[22:18] <eroomde> except i spelt it atrociously
[22:18] <WillTablet> Sure did
[22:18] <WillTablet> Not too bad though
[22:18] <fsphil> spelling is optinal
[22:18] <WillTablet> Yup
[22:18] <DL1SGP> this is IRC, spelling is optional
[22:18] <daveake> spelling is overatid
[22:18] <DL1SGP> fsphil: great minds think alike
[22:19] <WillTablet> As Feynman says, there's not a correct way to spell anword
[22:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> fools never differ
[22:19] <S_Mark> this is a good website for a read projectascend www.stratodean.co.uk :p
[22:19] <WillTablet> That is what annoys me when people go all anti modern and American language
[22:19] <mfa298> fsphil: because no team would ever fill the balloon before getting the payload running... oh wait ... (silly univeristy students)
[22:19] <eroomde> people do that only once
[22:19] <S_Mark> I had a look at yours, v good. Good luck with it all
[22:19] <eroomde> ideally never because they've read the wiki
[22:20] <WillTablet> And I'm just thinking well, it is still English, what you speak has no more right to be called English than what they speak
[22:20] <projectascend> We have read the wiki, we should be fine! :D
[22:20] <eroomde> suspect there's a weight in numbers
[22:21] <fsphil> was thinking about this earlier. the english Tolkien used vs what is in the recent movies
[22:22] <fsphil> if they'd made the movie faithful to the book it would've been fairly annoying
[22:22] <eroomde> indeed
[22:23] <eroomde> though equally i read jane austen for the language
[22:23] <fsphil> so in 50 years time when they're making the #highaltitude movie, imagine how we'll all sound
[22:23] <DL1SGP> Like on Helium, fsphil?
[22:23] <fsphil> I couldn't finish gulliver's travels because of the old english
[22:23] <fsphil> it just really got to me after a few chapters
[22:23] <WillTablet> I was talking to someone about oriented and orientated
[22:24] <WillTablet> He said oriented was the american form
[22:24] <WillTablet> So I google ngramed it
[22:24] <fsphil> I do have a few words I hate. Like "burglarised"
[22:24] <WillTablet> And it is more common to say oriented in British English than american
[22:24] <WillTablet> Antidisestablishmentarianism is a good one
[22:24] <WillTablet> And I can spell it perfectly
[22:25] <fsphil> fancy pants
[22:25] <mikestir> "reach out" when used to mean talk to, email, or otherwise contact someone
[22:25] <mikestir> winds me up
[22:25] <eroomde> oh god yes
[22:25] <eroomde> totally
[22:25] <eroomde> like it's the Creation Of Adam
[22:25] <mikestir> what's the other good one. pneumonomicroscopicvolcanoconioniosis?
[22:25] <mikestir> which is miner's lung
[22:26] <mikestir> actually there's a "silica" in there somewhere too
[22:26] <WillTablet> Nah
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[22:34] <WillTablet> eroomde: my mum banned me from buying existential philosophy novels
[22:34] <WillTablet> So no more Camus :-P
[22:35] <eroomde> wow
[22:36] <SpeedEvil> ...
[22:37] <SpeedEvil> http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/9184
[22:37] <WillTablet> Wrong Camus
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[22:38] <WillTablet> eroomde: she sorta meant well. She hasn't actually read it
[22:38] <eroomde> once a catholic....
[22:38] <WillTablet> How did you guess?
[22:39] <WillTablet> In other news, still haven't heard from amsat-uk
[22:39] <WillTablet> I emailed their support
[22:39] <eroomde> plenty of other good books anyway
[22:39] <eroomde> read austen
[22:39] <eroomde> it's funny
[22:39] <WillTablet> Austen?
[22:40] Action: SpeedEvil ponders.
[22:40] <WillTablet> Jane?
[22:42] <WillTablet> So yeah, minorly pissed off with amsat
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> I would personally recommend 'Larry Niven' - Protector.
[22:46] <WillTablet> Personally, I think I have too much crap to deal with already to read books
[22:46] <eroomde> read funny ones then
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[22:49] <WillTablet> Books have never really made me laugh
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[22:53] <Oddstr13> WillTablet: try webcomics :3
[22:54] Action: Oddstr13 is bad at reading books too
[22:55] <Oddstr13> actually, where did i hide my books? ._.
[22:56] <jededu> Has anybody used a PiCam for recording video on a flight
[22:56] <daveake> yup
[22:56] <jededu> any goog
[22:56] <jededu> good
[22:57] <jededu> do you have problems with fogging up
[22:57] <daveake> they're good eough
[22:57] <daveake> never had one fog up
[22:58] <jededu> whats the quality like compared to a gopro
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[23:01] <daveake> Not as sharp but then it doesn't have the silly fisheye lens
[23:01] <daveake> costs rather less too
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[23:02] <S_Mark> Turns out the new GoPro software has the option to remove the fisheye affect as part of the import, we used it on the Santa video.
[23:02] <S_Mark> But yeah can't argue the price point
[23:03] <S_Mark> effect*
[23:03] <jededu> true i have a modded gopro with a 6mm no fisheye but really want to stick with the pi
[23:03] <S_Mark> For a full fight you need the battery backpack on the gopro
[23:03] <S_Mark> and to fly it without the case
[23:04] <S_Mark> doesnt fog then as there is nowhere for vapour to condense
[23:04] <daveake> S_Mark We have a probable move date - 13th Feb
[23:05] <S_Mark> Oh great that is good news, almost a Forester soon daveake lol
[23:05] <daveake> and I have 14 m^3 of H2 in the car, waiting for a launch :)
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[23:05] <Geoff-G8DHE> You could float down there Dave!
[23:05] <daveake> lol
[23:06] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://tinyurl.com/mm7l7ch
[23:06] <S_Mark> We'll have to start thinking of some collaborative ideas!
[23:06] <Lunar_Lander> hey S_Mark
[23:06] <S_Mark> hey Lunar_Lander
[23:06] <daveake> yup
[23:06] <Lunar_Lander> how's life?
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[23:06] <S_Mark> Yeah good thank you, just finishing off this ssdv
[23:07] <S_Mark> Gotta give it a go surely
[23:07] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[23:07] <fsphil> me too
[23:07] <Lunar_Lander> just a day until my B.Sc. defense
[23:07] <Geoff-G8DHE> http://dornob.com/300-helium-balloons-float-real-up-house-10000-feet-high/#axzz2rjmULeed
[23:08] <DL1SGP> Good Luck Kevin!
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[23:09] <Lunar_Lander> thanks
[23:10] <WillTablet> Lunar_Lander: defense?
[23:10] <adafruit> Hey guys do any of you guys have any documentation on getting a gps and NTX2 to work toghether??
[23:11] <Lunar_Lander> yea presentation of my work and getting questions asked about it
[23:11] <fsphil> you'll be wanting something like http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:linkingarduinotontx2 adafruit
[23:11] <WillTablet> Lunar_Lander: what's it on?
[23:11] <adafruit> Hey i have got the ntx2 working separately and the gps working separate
[23:12] <adafruit> need to get them working together to build a tracker
[23:12] <fsphil> ah, the programming bit
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[23:12] <Lunar_Lander> stopped-flow electron paramagnetic resonance spectroscopy
[23:13] <WillTablet> Fun
[23:13] <WillTablet> What is that?
[23:13] <fsphil> the normal method is just to read the NMEA lines from the gps module, extract the position and altitude, then create a string for transmitting to the ntx
[23:13] <fsphil> 2
[23:14] <WillTablet> Or is trying to explain it to me as futile as a Dutchman trying to explain the ij sound to an Englishman?
[23:14] <WillTablet> Good analogy I just did there
[23:14] <LeoBodnar> paramagnetic is a sweet word
[23:15] <jededu> Can somone answer a really simple question, its really bugging me what is the best/right way to attach a parachute i have seen two options
[23:15] <WillTablet> I feel a little guilty about getting a new radio and giving the club one back.
[23:15] <Lunar_Lander> EPR is that you have electron spins in an electromagnet
[23:15] <WillTablet> Because I've only had it for a weelk
[23:16] <WillTablet> And will probably only use it for a week
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> they will align to the field, just as a compass needle would do
[23:16] <Lunar_Lander> normally the orientation of the spin does not matter, but in this case, parallel orientation is energetically more favourable
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> so there is an energy difference, so that a microwave can make a transition and when that happens, you see microwave energy being absorbed
[23:17] <Lunar_Lander> that is EPR in very few sentences
[23:18] <LeoBodnar> Apparently MRI scanners sales didn't go well until they were renamed from original Nuclear Magnetic Resonance scanners
[23:19] <LeoBodnar> Councils were afraid of the word "Nuclear"
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> yea
[23:20] <LeoBodnar> I despair
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> "Nuclear" "Radioactive" "Chemistry" "Genes"
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> trigger words
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> some say "I live a chemistry-free life"
[23:20] <Lunar_Lander> but life itself is chemistry
[23:20] <Oddstr13> anyone know if it would be possible to connect and ubertooth one to gqrx?
[23:21] <fsphil> a whaty what?
[23:21] <LeoBodnar> I want one!
[23:21] <LeoBodnar> What is it?
[23:21] <Oddstr13> s/and/an/
[23:22] <Oddstr13> the ubertooth?
[23:23] <fsphil> oooooh http://greatscottgadgets.com/ubertoothone/
[23:23] <fsphil> now that sentence parses
[23:23] <Oddstr13> yep :P
[23:23] Action: Oddstr13 is impatient
[23:24] <gonzo__> is that why counclis seem to fall over themselves to fund chav families with dozens of kids by multiple fathers? They are frightened of nuclear families!
[23:24] <Oddstr13> i have ordered a rtl-sdr off of ebay, but that thing probably won't be here in a while :P
[23:24] <fsphil> I've never seen it mentioned when compiling gqrx
[23:24] <fsphil> maybe if osmosdr supports it, gqrx would
[23:25] <LeoBodnar> Can it do BT Low Energy?
[23:26] <Oddstr13> LeoBodnar: not sure, i have only used it as a wifi spectrum analyser so far :P
[23:26] <LeoBodnar> *LE is misnomer, it should really be Bluetooth Low Duty Ratio
[23:26] <zyp> LeoBodnar, I believe it can
[23:26] <zyp> at least that's the impression I got when I considered buying one
[23:26] <LeoBodnar> Bluetooth is vile
[23:27] <zyp> how so?
[23:27] <gonzo__> most bt is <1mw anyway
[23:28] <LeoBodnar> BT LE is designed with max current consumption of 30mA in mind
[23:28] <LeoBodnar> It does not need all the pairing nonsense
[23:29] <Oddstr13> LeoBodnar: http://www.sharebrained.com/ubertooth/
[23:29] <LeoBodnar> It's crap just like the rest of BT but infrastructure is there
[23:29] <LeoBodnar> *really soon now
[23:29] Action: WillTablet can't find any reasonably cheap psus
[23:30] <Oddstr13> the ubertooth is made for bt injection and monitor mode
[23:31] <Oddstr13> WillTablet: what kind of PSU?
[23:31] <WillTablet> 13.8v 25a
[23:31] <WillTablet> I guess all I need for this radio is the radio, a PsU and an atu
[23:32] <Oddstr13> 25A? o.o
[23:33] <gonzo__> 25a is a useable rating
[23:34] <Oddstr13> yea, but that's quite a bit of current
[23:34] <WillTablet> 23A then
[23:36] <adwiens> Is this enough amps? http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SE-4022-Wheeled-Battery-Charger/dp/B00030BFQA/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1390952156&sr=8-11&keywords=battery+charger+amps
[23:36] <adwiens> I kid :P
[23:37] <gonzo__> could be a bit diret
[23:37] <gonzo__> dirty
[23:37] <WillTablet> What do people do about safety earthing for mobile installations?
[23:38] <gonzo__> the car is 12V so no nneed
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[23:45] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
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[00:00] --- Wed Jan 29 2014