highaltitude.log.20140127

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[00:02] <adwiens> what about a not-quite-as-nice thermal imager? http://publiclab.org/wiki/scanning-thermal-camera
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[00:03] <SpeedEvil> adwiens: yeah - this is almost at the point that wouldn't work well
[00:04] <SpeedEvil> I'd really like to be able to scan the board, and see if anything is getting hot every 30s tops
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[00:57] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb eroomde and anybody who can help: http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/SatPower.png
[00:58] <LeoBodnar> This is a sweep of doppler at fixed PRN offset
[00:58] <LeoBodnar> Red line is for I and Q using proper double precision floating numbers
[00:59] <LeoBodnar> Blue is for I/Q using square waves and XORing
[00:59] <LeoBodnar> The samples are 1 bit in both cases
[01:00] <LeoBodnar> I am not sure how to get rid of such a ragged results for XORed technique
[01:01] <LeoBodnar> square wave I and Q are generated pretty much as sign(sin(..)) and sign(cos(..))
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[01:03] <nats`> good night boyz !
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[01:05] <LeoBodnar> Integration period is 1 msec or 16368 single bit samples
[01:06] Nick change: crash_18974_ -> crash_18974
[01:06] <LeoBodnar> The difference between Doppler of 750 and 950 Hz using square wave I/Q and XORing is almost three-fold
[01:20] <SpeedEvil> eww
[01:21] <SpeedEvil> This is a graph between correlation sum on the vertical axis, and what on the x? sample offset?
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[07:12] <brainles71> Morning guys
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[07:32] Nick change: M_Gandhi -> kuldeepdhaka
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[08:03] <fsphil> woo monday
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[08:07] <brainles71> its a public holiday here at the moment in australia
[08:11] <fsphil> ah yes
[08:11] <craag> morning fsphil
[08:11] <fsphil> morn craag
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[08:12] Action: fsphil is just beginning the long slow process of waking up
[08:12] <fsphil> should be finished around home time
[08:13] <craag> ha
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[08:23] <DL1SGP> morning folks
[08:23] <fsphil> what's everyones plans for this week?
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[08:25] <DL1SGP> reaching weekend :)
[08:25] <fsphil> that's optional but recommended
[08:26] <DL1SGP> hopefully tracking VAYU-NXT if conditions are fine for steve_G0TDJ to release it this week :)
[08:26] <DL1SGP> else curing the withdrawal symptoms with other radio activities
[08:29] <fsphil> I'd like to get at least one of my arm dev boards working this wee
[08:29] <fsphil> +k
[08:29] <DL1SGP> it got significantly warmer over night and might rain/snow a bit later, temp went up from -9c to 0.9c as of now, the low pressure system is kicking in. pressure fell from 1013 to 991 so I gonna see if weather brings any further surprises for the day.... and electronics wise.. yeah there are some open projects on my side as well
[08:30] <fsphil> snow and wind overnight here, but it had melted by the morning
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[08:30] <fsphil> just rain now
[08:31] <DL1SGP> we have about 4cm of snow right now, it was pretty cold the past few days... guess it will melt tho
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[08:31] <DL1SGP> it should be "mild" for a few days and then it gets cold again :D
[08:31] <DL1SGP> salut f5vnf
[08:31] <fsphil> snow is awesome
[08:32] <DL1SGP> yes but even more enjoyable if there is sun :)
[08:32] <f5vnf> salut youcan keep it we are having a very mild one here so far
[08:33] <f5vnf> but plenty of rain in the last 48 hrs
[08:33] <DL1SGP> it just started to rain
[08:33] <fsphil> some of the rivers here are very high up
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[08:35] <DL1SGP> rivers are normal here for now, local river is idling at 14cm above average
[08:35] <DL1SGP> nothing compare to the flood of last year
[08:37] <KT5TK> Morning Europe! Just finished my late night work and send it off to the PCB manufacturer:
[08:37] <KT5TK> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5676413/PecanPico6.brd.pdf
[08:37] <KT5TK> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5676413/PecanPico6.sch.pdf
[08:37] <fsphil> looking good
[08:38] <KT5TK> Got to use my AMY6 chips
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[08:39] <DL1SGP> morning KT5TK
[08:39] <KT5TK> Guten Morgen DL1SGP
[08:43] <DL1SGP> :)
[08:47] <DL1SGP> KT5TK: kd2eat was reporting some "issues" with a Pecan setup yesterday, anyhow seems to be more so something wonky in the filtering, he has not finished full analysis of the issue yet... just to let you know in case that he contacts you directly.... his main worry was that the transmission power was lower than expected... I guess he will be running more checks today
[08:47] <DL1SGP> so if he contacts you directly you know he has been here before :)
[08:49] <KT5TK> Low TX power sounds like he populated the rx components. He shouldn't.
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[08:49] <qyx_> uf, you may have problems with the layout for those qfn parts
[08:50] <KT5TK> The transceiver configuration may be good for 10 mW, but it simply doesn't work for 100mW
[08:50] <KT5TK> You'd need PIN switches
[08:53] <KT5TK> The main problem I had with the AMY6 chip was that one ground pin couldn't get connected with the distance and thickness rules from the PCB house. So let's see if they complain...
[08:53] <qyx_> also i would redo the smps layout
[08:54] <qyx_> you mean the one in the top left corner?
[08:55] <KT5TK> Yes
[08:56] <KT5TK> The goal was mainly to burn my AMY6 chips, since they are no longer manufactured. So this will never be a professional layout.
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[09:01] <qyx_> KT5TK: you can connect it using the tck pin
[09:01] <qyx_> which is unused jtag clock input
[09:02] <KT5TK> might be an idea.
[09:02] <qyx_> it should be on E2 according to amy5 datasheet
[09:02] <qyx_> i dont have amy6 ds now
[09:04] <UpuWork> I've requested some EVA's Brad
[09:04] <Chetic> am I right in assuming setting flight mode on a ublox GPS requires changing NMEA-mode to binary UBX mode?
[09:05] <Chetic> I can't find a description of how in the protocol description document
[09:05] <UpuWork> you don't need to change the mode
[09:05] <UpuWork> just issue the command
[09:05] <UpuWork> though sometimes it helps to turn the NMEA off
[09:05] <Chetic> right, because it just splurts NMEA at me, when I want an ACK
[09:05] <UpuWork> yep
[09:05] <UpuWork> so just issue
[09:05] <UpuWork> 1 sec
[09:05] <Chetic> I see, I'll figure out how to turn NMEA off
[09:06] <UpuWork> example code incoming
[09:06] <UpuWork> https://github.com/HABduino/HABduino/blob/master/Software/habduino/habduino.ino#L442-L456
[09:08] <Chetic> very nice, thanks!
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[10:33] <LeoBodnar> morning
[10:34] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: ping
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[12:21] <LeoBodnar> eroomde Laurenceb http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/DopplerVsIntegrationTime.png any idea why 1ms integration is offset by 100Hz?
[12:24] <nats`> because of the second spike ?
[12:26] <LeoBodnar> Comparing 1ms and 2ms integration charts: if I run the same code for 1ms integration period following the first one (which is included in 2ms results) it overlays the first 1ms chart quite accurately
[12:27] <LeoBodnar> I.e. 2ms integration includes A and B data each 1msec long. Separately A and B both produce same result as pictured as 1ms integration chart
[12:36] <LeoBodnar> /join #sdrgpsfordummies
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[12:41] <Miek> i'm disappointed that that doesn't exist :<
[12:44] <fsphil> how many joined? :)
[12:45] <nats`> to know that just type /join #0,0
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[12:55] <brainles71> Morning guys
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[12:57] <fsphil> evening brainles71
[12:59] <brainles71> hey how do you direct a message at someone
[12:59] <gonzo__> ATC strikes planned over eu this week
[12:59] <gonzo__> ideal time to launch!
[12:59] <brainles71> ATC?
[12:59] <brainles71> air traffic control
[12:59] <Joel_re> hah
[12:59] <gonzo__> yup
[12:59] <Oddstr13> lol
[12:59] <Joel_re> wish those happened here
[12:59] <brainles71> where are you guys based?
[12:59] <nats`> brainles71 /msg nick msg
[13:00] <gonzo__> lots of free airspace and no one there to ask questions
[13:00] <nats`> brainles71 or /query nick msg
[13:00] <LeoBodnar> big sky theory works well
[13:00] <gonzo__> some irc clients have a private message thingy in them, whic saves typing the command
[13:01] <brainles71> yeah that did a private message
[13:02] <brainles71> instructions unclear more research needed
[13:03] <nats`> ?
[13:03] <nats`> that's the standard IRC protocol for /msg
[13:03] <nats`> the /query should open a window to the nick target
[13:03] <Oddstr13> PRIVMSG <nick/channel> :<msg>
[13:03] <Oddstr13> ^^
[13:04] <brainles71> cya later guys
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[13:04] <Oddstr13> i ordered this thingy last night; http://www.ebay.com/itm/310838282583 - i hope it will work ok :P
[13:05] <nats`> legal restriction in your country blablablabla :\
[13:05] <nats`> France \o/
[13:05] <Oddstr13> on the ebay link? o.o
[13:06] <Oddstr13> "DVB-T RTL-SDR+DAB+FM USB Digital TV Tuner Receiver For Laptop PC RTL2832U R820T" for US$9.59 :P
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[13:10] <nats`> yep ebay link
[13:10] <nats`> :|
[13:10] <nats`> france is so cool for geek
[13:10] <nats`> :\
[13:11] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: sorry was away
[13:11] <eroomde> not sure at first glance
[13:12] <eroomde> so explain to me exactly what this graph is
[13:12] <eroomde> is it just looking for a carrier based on so many ms of sampled data?
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[13:27] <LeoBodnar> yes eroomde this is at the peak of PRN offset correlation sweeping the doppler carrier
[13:27] <LeoBodnar> I'd expect peak at the same place but different width
[13:28] <eroomde> sure yes
[13:28] <eroomde> hmm
[13:31] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: can you doo 500uS?
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[13:33] <eroomde> I lovely phrase by a chap who was at Intel in the early days, that at high speeds it's the 'hidden schematic' that defines circuit performance
[13:33] <eroomde> with reference to all the parasitics
[13:40] <Laurenceb_> so my avian effects module is using 40A at 64V DC
[13:40] <Laurenceb_> madness
[13:40] <LeoBodnar> eroomde: http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/500usec.png
[13:40] <Laurenceb_> im wearing welding goggles
[13:41] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: ill take a look at your data when i have time
[13:41] <LeoBodnar> it needs x2 actually but it looks centred at 0Hz
[13:41] <Laurenceb_> im wondering if there is some interference
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[13:45] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: interesting
[13:45] <Laurenceb_> what are you trying to od?
[13:45] <eroomde> looks like it's not seeing anything
[13:46] <Laurenceb_> 500microsecond integration?
[13:46] <Laurenceb_> thats unlikely to work
[13:46] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: is there any way you could run your sampler off battery power, save to ram and squirt out over usb later?
[13:47] <Laurenceb_> and does your usb cable have ferrites on it?
[13:50] <eroomde> why would 500uS not work?
[13:50] <Laurenceb_> not enough signal
[13:50] <eroomde> i've definitely seen stuff in the literature about not sampling the whole chip length
[13:50] <Laurenceb_> unless you had a nice patch antenni maybe...
[13:50] <Laurenceb_> or directional
[13:51] <Laurenceb_> ive seen it done with quite directional stuff
[13:51] <eroomde> it might be fun then to plot as a line the peak frequency for everything from 1.5ms down to 0.5ms
[13:51] <Laurenceb_> but i think i can see evidence of some broadband interference in the baseband
[13:51] <eroomde> and see if it's just a question of it starting to drift off and give up
[13:52] <Laurenceb_> my sige sampler looks cleaner, i can see the rippled from the Se4120 DSP for example
[13:52] <Laurenceb_> and although there are narrowband spikes that are much worse than this 4110 board, the total energy is <1%
[13:53] <Laurenceb_> this 4110 board would appear to have some sort of broadbnad noise, but i need to come up with a technique to quantify it
[13:53] <nats`> a coax to a freq gen
[13:53] <nats`> or a 50ohm resistor
[13:53] <Laurenceb_> maybe search for the ripples from the filtering DSP and look at their modulation depth
[13:53] <nats`> you can calculate the thermal noise of the resistor
[13:54] <Laurenceb_> sure
[13:54] <Laurenceb_> but a se4110 doesnt give me signal in microvolt units
[13:54] <nats`> I mean just put a 50ohm resistor at the input and look at the output
[13:54] <Laurenceb_> so im never going to be able to measure white noise
[13:54] <Laurenceb_> but this noise is coloured
[13:54] <nats`> you should have nothin until you reach the theorical noise floor
[13:55] <Laurenceb_> so i can look at the ripple from the filtering DSP
[13:55] <Laurenceb_> thats why i think its there
[13:55] <Laurenceb_> the ripple is too low/chaotic
[13:55] <nats`> what's make you think it comes from the DSP and not other source ?
[13:55] <Laurenceb_> the datasheet :P
[13:55] <nats`> basically any dcdc or pll inside your computer
[13:56] <nats`> oky :)
[13:56] <Laurenceb_> but i need to work on LwIP for my avain effects module :-/
[13:56] <Laurenceb_> it pays the bills i guess
[13:56] <eroomde> avain effects?
[13:56] <nats`> same problem here ut I work undercover literally
[13:56] <nats`> :p
[13:56] <nats`> but
[13:56] <Laurenceb_> 2.6Kw of raw chicken power
[13:56] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: im being paid to make a disco for chickens
[13:57] <nats`> oO
[13:57] <nats`> you mean to cut chicken in piece ?
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[13:57] <eroomde> right...
[13:57] <nats`> in the agro indutry ?
[13:57] <Laurenceb_> string of 2.6Kw 8 channel light modules that hang off ethernet
[13:57] <Laurenceb_> nats`: yes
[13:58] <Laurenceb_> Aluminium cored board
[13:58] <Laurenceb_> with big heatsink on the back and lots of fans
[13:58] <Laurenceb_> then big array (12x12cm) of 4W LEDs
[13:59] <Laurenceb_> hence the welding goggles im wearing
[14:00] <eroomde> what an image
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[14:02] <Laurenceb_> this thing can incinerate bin bags from 2 meters away
[14:02] <g4sgx_iain> Afternoon chaps. Just got home to find my board is still going, thats over 24hrs on 2xAA batteries. Im happy with that I think, maybe use AAA to to do test flight.
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[14:04] <Laurenceb_> first case of a lwIP bug causing instant blindness...
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[14:05] <mattbrejza> i cant see how this is supposed to help chickens...
[14:06] <nats`> Laurenceb I have some problem with my neighboor....
[14:07] <Hix> how the hell can Farnell be more expensive than CPC for the same item, they're the same f--ing company.....
[14:08] <adamgreig> CPC is always cheaper and slower
[14:09] <Laurenceb_> <mattbrejza> its supposed to terrorise them into getting some exercise
[14:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yes Farnell and CPC are strange!
[14:10] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> also finding things in CPC that aren't in Farnell!
[14:10] <Laurenceb_> also Guantanamo bay are interested
[14:10] <daveake> also finding cpc are out of stock but Farnell aren't
[14:10] <mattbrejza> ungratful things, we banned battery farming and gave them more space, but now they have that space theyre too lazy to use it
[14:10] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> not sure about slower! FArnell always deliver after CPC for me
[14:11] <gonzo__> how do they grow batteries now then?
[14:11] <mattbrejza> weird, farnell is generally next day, cpc 2-3 days for me
[14:11] <brainles71> has anyone here used the trackuino?
[14:11] <mattbrejza> ha ha
[14:12] <LeoBodnar> I have another question I have asked yesterday: anybody who can help: http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/SatPower.png This is a sweep of doppler at fixed PRN offset. Red line is for I and Q using proper double precision floating numbers. Blue is for I/Q using square waves and XORing. The samples are 1 bit in both cases.
[14:13] <LeoBodnar> I am not sure how to get rid of such a ragged results for XORed technique. square wave I and Q are generated pretty much as sign(sin(..)) and sign(cos(..))
[14:14] <eroomde> not sure there's much to be done there
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[14:15] <Laurenceb_> ok ill tell you how i did it in my asm code
[14:15] <eroomde> just pick the highest value and hope for the best
[14:15] <LeoBodnar> I can't see how doppler sweep can work reliably in such case
[14:15] <Laurenceb_> i came across this same problem
[14:15] <Laurenceb_> so i moved the doppler "outside"
[14:15] <eroomde> it is going to be many dBs noisier than doing it the nice way
[14:15] <Laurenceb_> so the single bit stiff uses xor
[14:16] <Laurenceb_> that hardly gives you a penalty
[14:16] <Laurenceb_> but then i move to 16bit fixed point
[14:16] <LeoBodnar> I have considered noisyfying I/Q
[14:16] <Laurenceb_> for hte doppler
[14:16] <Laurenceb_> this can be done as the doppler is quite low
[14:16] <Laurenceb_> much lower than the ~1Mhz chip rate
[14:17] <Laurenceb_> so i integrate into 16bit fixed point bins, using my countones function
[14:17] <Laurenceb_> then every so often i rotate the bins using 16bit fixed point complex multiply (hardware accelerated massively on M4)
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[14:18] <Laurenceb_> so at a few kHz i use two clock cycles dealing with doppler, basically zero overhead
[14:19] <Laurenceb_> of course, you end up with a weird phase at the end of your integration period, but that only happens at a few hundred hz, so can be done with floating point and FPU easily
[14:19] <Laurenceb_> ill pastebin my asm again
[14:20] <LeoBodnar> THis sounds like almost impossible on 16bit PIC
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[14:20] <LeoBodnar> XORed I/Q sort of work OK if integration is 2-8msec
[14:21] <Laurenceb_> http://pastebin.com/i5kb0Qv8
[14:21] <Laurenceb_> erm yeah
[14:21] <Laurenceb_> youll struggle on pic
[14:22] <Laurenceb_> also that code needs more work
[14:22] <Laurenceb_> i worked out a more clever preprocessing technique
[14:22] <Laurenceb_> where you wrap around 8 times and 1byte offset == 1 sample offset, so phase is just an address
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[14:24] <Laurenceb_> see line 90
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[14:25] <Laurenceb_> im using a complex number format where upper and lower 16 bits of 32bit register are real and complex as 16bit fixed point
[14:25] <LeoBodnar> Ah yes I step in whole bytes (=1/2 chip)
[14:25] <Laurenceb_> thats actually the way you are supposed to do it, the DSP instruction set is designed with this in mind
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[14:25] <Laurenceb_> yeah but thats raw data
[14:26] <Laurenceb_> im preprocessing to a more useful format to speed up the correlator channels
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[14:30] <Laurenceb_> so there are I words and Q words in their own buffers
[14:31] <eroomde> everything in this is wonderful ^
[14:32] <eroomde> it's also very funy
[14:32] <eroomde> funny*
[14:33] <eroomde> eg Note 2, in ref to differences between connectors of the same type, "Almost no one believes any of this until they see it for themselves. I
[14:33] <eroomde> didnt. Photos of the network analyzers display arent included in the text
[14:33] <eroomde> because no one would believe them. I wouldnt."
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[14:34] <Laurenceb_> lol figure 37
[14:35] <Laurenceb_> figure 65: This Part of the Circuit is Not Layout Sensitive
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[14:37] <eroomde> there's a high speed pulse source in there
[14:38] <eroomde> for generating ~300ps ruising edges at a few tens of volts
[14:38] <eroomde> (which is quite impressive)
[14:38] <eroomde> it's supremely simple and clever
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[14:39] <eroomde> he deliberately induced an avalnache breakdown in a transistor, reasoning that that's incredibly quick (it is), but stops it being destroyed by feeding charging a small cap with a large resistor until it gets above the avalnahce breakdown voltage, and discharges through the cap into a 50-ohm load
[14:39] <eroomde> if the amount of charge is small enough, the transistor is ok
[14:39] <eroomde> ingenious
[14:40] <eroomde> so the base pin can just be floating randomly in the air or whatever, it just discharges from collector to emitter
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[14:40] <eroomde> and the even cooler thing is you can turn that from a pulse to more of a top-hat function if you replace the cap with a length of coax, to act as a capacitor but with some electrical length
[14:41] <Laurenceb_> neat
[14:41] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: so to cut a long story short, im not convinced by xor based doppler
[14:41] <gb73d> watcin nasa tv spacewalk here
[14:41] <Laurenceb_> but its no big deal to fix it :D
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[14:46] <brainles71> eroomde: Laurenceb: i have no idea what you guys are talking about but its interesting to watch
[14:47] <LeoBodnar> eroomde: I have it made up as a small PCB connecting directly to a BNC input on the scope
[14:47] <LeoBodnar> and powered by USB from said scope
[14:47] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: awesome
[14:47] <eroomde> how did you do the voltage multiplier?
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[14:48] <LeoBodnar> to extend the pulse length use a piece of coax or flat cable as a delay line
[14:48] <LeoBodnar> One of LT SMPS chips
[14:48] <LeoBodnar> let me find a link
[14:49] <LeoBodnar> I was designing the PCB for this and somebody just sent me theirs lol
[14:49] <eroomde> nice
[14:50] <eroomde> i really want to do some more high-speed design
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[14:50] <eroomde> when i first got here, james was doing some really quite impressive work on a proton beam former
[14:50] <eroomde> it had to scan between plates in about 1ns, but had non-trivial profiles to follow within that 1ns window
[14:51] <eroomde> and it was all battles against parasitics and scope probes
[14:51] <eroomde> but it was a bit beyond me at the time
[14:51] <eroomde> now two years later i sort of understand a lot more what he was fighting
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[14:52] <eroomde> it's a bit like a racket sport when playing someone twice as good as you is a great way to learn but playing someone 10x better than you will teach you nothing
[14:53] <nats`> eroomde I learn this by playing MMORPG :D
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[14:56] <LeoBodnar> eroomde: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/scope-rising-time/msg42912/#msg42912
[14:57] <eroomde> that's a nice long pulse
[14:58] <eroomde> shame the scope won't really tell you the rise time :)
[14:58] <LeoBodnar> http://koti.kapsi.fi/~jahonen/Electronics/AvalanchePulser/ there is TONNES of stuff
[14:59] <eroomde> i'd probably do a non-pcb version
[15:00] <eroomde> with the emitter going directly to the bnc inner terminal
[15:00] <eroomde> one of those situations where every 90 degree bend in your pcb trace costs you 25% in performance :)
[15:01] <Hix> ping Babs_
[15:01] <eroomde> http://koti.kapsi.fi/~jahonen/Electronics/AvalanchePulser/With%20RG-174%20coax.png
[15:01] <LeoBodnar> heh Jim version is classic
[15:01] <eroomde> i want that scope
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[15:05] <LeoBodnar> it's so simple though... <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: so to cut a long story short, im not convinced by xor based doppler
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[15:09] <Laurenceb_> LeoBobnar: so is complex multiply
[15:09] <Laurenceb_> well.. on arm
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[15:28] <Hix> gotta love chinglish specsheets
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[15:30] <adwiens> if anyone is interested, I've done some tests on different kinds of lithium cells in a freezer: http://adwiens.com/projects/balloons/batt/index.html
[15:30] <Hix> http://i.imgur.com/AwJrnpA.png
[15:30] <eroomde> adwiens: lemme guess - the L91 conquers all?
[15:31] <adwiens> yep!
[15:31] <adwiens> by a fair bit
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[15:31] <eroomde> they're very good
[15:32] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[15:33] <Laurenceb_> id like to see a lithium ion CR2032
[15:33] <adwiens> have one to donate? :P
[15:34] <Laurenceb_> nope sorry
[15:34] <Laurenceb_> i was looking at one for rockoon tracker
[15:35] <Laurenceb_> seemed like the self impedance issue wasnt nearly as bad with the lithium ion stuff as the lithium manganese dioxide
[15:35] <Laurenceb_> but i was just reading datasheets :P
[15:35] <Laurenceb_> nice results :D
[15:35] <adwiens> how do they do in the cold? according to the datasheets? or do they even say
[15:35] <adwiens> thanks!
[15:36] <Laurenceb_> its hard to say - they are a bit hard to find
[15:36] <Laurenceb_> but just at room temperature the lithium manganese dioxide stuff is poor
[15:36] <Laurenceb_> its designed more for watch batteries and stuff aiui
[15:37] <Laurenceb_> there is high drain lithium ion coin cell stuff, but obviously nothing will beat the energizer lithiums
[15:37] <adwiens> yea its just that the smallest they make are the L92s (AAA)
[15:37] <Laurenceb_> indeed
[15:37] <Laurenceb_> annoying
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[15:47] <adwiens> wow they actually sell 2032 chargers http://www.ebay.com/itm/Charger-for-Rechargeable-Li-ion-Button-Battery-LIR2032-LIR2025-DC-4-2V-20mA-EU-/321045941063?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item4abfd44b47
[15:48] <adwiens> did not realize that was a thing
[15:50] <Vostok> they're rechargable?
[15:50] <adwiens> the li-ion ones are, the normal CR2032's are not
[15:50] <Vostok> ah
[15:50] <Vostok> i never saw lithium ones
[15:51] <Vostok> well, maybe the CR is based on lithium too, but you know.. :)
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[15:55] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb what is your estimated acquisition time on 2ms of data if doppler is unknown?
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[16:06] <diegoesep> *$ù¨¨£%µ
[16:08] <eroomde> good
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[16:17] <LeoBodnar> refresh for better levels on 50% PRN integration period: http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/500usec.png
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[16:17] <LeoBodnar> 1ms is offset for some reason vs both shorter and longer integration lengths
[16:18] <eroomde> odd
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[16:23] <Laurenceb_> probably an artefact of the PRN frequency components?
[16:25] <Laurenceb_> id prob go for 250hz resolution and 2ms integration
[16:26] <Laurenceb_> worst case you lose ~15%
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[16:27] <LeoBodnar> yeah 2ms or 4ms looks best
[16:27] <Laurenceb_> 4ms has issues as you need lots of doppler resolution
[16:28] <Laurenceb_> i guess you dont need a huge lookup table for the pruned fft
[16:28] <Laurenceb_> you can use approximated phasors for large chunks of samples
[16:28] <LeoBodnar> can you fuzzy up the I and Q signals?
[16:28] <LeoBodnar> to capture larger B/W?
[16:28] <Laurenceb_> hmm dunno
[16:29] <Laurenceb_> id try pruned fft, then you only have a small speed penalty as you increase integration time
[16:29] <Laurenceb_> well- its useful even for 1ms of data, giving a ~8 times speedup
[16:29] <LeoBodnar> If you know doppler from almanac/RTC resolution is not a problem
[16:30] <Laurenceb_> but you need TCXO frequency too
[16:30] <LeoBodnar> SBAS?
[16:30] <LeoBodnar> Or you can do a +-1000Hz search around one of the sats and use that as a base
[16:31] <LeoBodnar> to correct the TCXO drift
[16:31] <Laurenceb_> true, but more work as the frequency resolution increases :P
[16:32] <Laurenceb_> i have too much to do to get this all running :-/
[16:32] <Laurenceb_> but my strategy would be to write a pruned fft "front end"
[16:32] <Laurenceb_> for arm cortex
[16:32] <LeoBodnar> can this be integrated into your chicken project?
[16:32] <Laurenceb_> then use one of the asm fft libs to do the rest on arm
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[16:35] <Laurenceb_> heh
[16:35] <Laurenceb_> if you were very clever....
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[16:36] <Laurenceb_> you could do preprocessing/4mhz local oscillator and single bit to 16bit fixed point conversion at the same time as pruned fft
[16:36] <Laurenceb_> that would be fun to write in thumb2
[16:36] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[16:37] <LeoBodnar> So how do I do this on Arduino then?
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> you want to convert to a format that can be fed into 2048 point or so 16bit fixed point fft
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> lol
[16:37] <Laurenceb_> that runs in a few hundred microseconds on cortex m4
[16:38] <LeoBodnar> power requirements for this project seem to be creeping up
[16:38] <Laurenceb_> nope
[16:39] <Laurenceb_> few hundred microseconds on cortex m4 is like 10microjoules
[16:39] <eroomde> 16:38 < LeoBodnar> power requirements for this project seem to be creeping up
[16:39] <Laurenceb_> one fft for the data
[16:39] <Laurenceb_> one ifft for each sat search
[16:39] <Laurenceb_> so about 5 ffts
[16:40] <Laurenceb_> <0.1millijoules
[16:40] <eroomde> I will just observe that on several occassions i've said that i think the joules/fix will be less with an off-the-shelf asic than a custom solution :)
[16:40] <M6KIK> Hello
[16:40] <Laurenceb_> i disagree
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[16:40] <M6KIK> So I found an excuse to take my radio on a school trip
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[16:41] <Laurenceb_> http://www.embeddedsignals.com/ARM.htm
[16:41] <Laurenceb_> someone need to rewrite this for M4
[16:41] <Laurenceb_> <- someone
[16:41] <Laurenceb_> *s
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[16:42] Action: M6KIK wonders if there's any repeaters on the way to so'ton
[16:42] <Laurenceb_> specifically, this
[16:42] <Laurenceb_> http://www.embeddedsignals.com/FFTr2CM3.s
[16:42] <Laurenceb_> blerg
[16:43] <LeoBodnar> I have a gut feeling that if features are kept to the minimum it can be few orders of magnitude more power efficient than stock product
[16:43] <Laurenceb_> yeah me too
[16:43] <LeoBodnar> E.g. XOR I/Q looks ugly but if the signal is strong who cares?
[16:43] <Laurenceb_> looks like of order 10^-4 joules per fix
[16:44] <LeoBodnar> $1M question: what is the most power efficient architecture out there in terms of joules/instruction ?
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[16:45] <LeoBodnar> where instruction = 16 bit multiplication for example
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[16:46] <Laurenceb_> who knows....
[16:46] <Laurenceb_> as it depends on the process and stuff
[16:46] <Laurenceb_> - the fab used
[16:47] <LeoBodnar> ok what is the most power efficient Cortex-M4?
[16:47] <diegoesep> STM32F4 are very powerfull
[16:48] <diegoesep> and can be scaled for the CPU rate
[16:48] <LeoBodnar> Or does architecture define power efficiency? I guess silicon implementation is pretty much affects few % of power use
[16:48] <LeoBodnar> Peripherals might be a different ballgame
[16:48] <nats`> in M4 power efficiency this is EFM32 but there are limited
[16:48] <diegoesep> what is important also is if you set up power saving scheme or not
[16:49] <LeoBodnar> and run from RAM
[16:49] <diegoesep> and switching between full power , medium , etc
[16:49] <LeoBodnar> *run code from RAM
[16:49] <eroomde> fram is much less power hungry than flash
[16:49] <eroomde> on the MSP430s
[16:49] <eroomde> but in absolute power terms they're almost certainly not up to the talk
[16:49] <eroomde> task*
[16:49] <BrainDamage> arch defines power efficiency, almost as much as the tech
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[16:50] <LeoBodnar> Does ARM define the MCU core to the transistor level when supplying the licence?
[16:51] <Laurenceb_> usually they define a gat enet
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[16:51] <LeoBodnar> I feel in 2 years somebody will be fabbing their own ASICs here
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[16:52] <nats`> check the homecmos project :)
[16:52] <nats`> but sincerely I don't think so
[16:52] <BrainDamage> it's already doable, the problem is that it requires an high investment
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[16:52] <nats`> because the product are deadly
[16:52] <nats`> deadly like don't sniff 1ug of those crap
[16:52] <Babs> Chaps - if I am operating off the standard ublox 6/7, ntx-2b and atmega, will this all run off a standard aaa battery or do i need 2 or 3 of them? thanks
[16:53] <BrainDamage> ofc you won't use stuff like epitaxial growth of silicon in phosphine environment
[16:53] <Babs> i am a circuit designing, and i need to work out how many and what type of battery connection thang i need
[16:53] <BrainDamage> unless you enjoy working with chemical weapons ( literally )
[16:54] <nats`> Tetramethylammonium hydroxide
[16:54] <BrainDamage> there's slower and crappier alternatives in some cases for dopants
[16:55] <Hix> Yo, Babs. Did Pete Solman do some laser work for you or was it all CNC?
[16:55] <adamgreig> going to struggle to come close to the kinds of power efficiency seen in really modern processes though I'd think
[16:55] <eroomde> Babs: depends on the power supply
[16:55] <nats`> BrainDamage I don't like fluorhydric acid either
[16:55] <eroomde> if you're not doing pico stuff, i'd use 3
[16:55] <nats`> that's why I stopped my experiment on delayer some time ago
[16:55] <Babs> hey hix - he is currently doing it - haven't seen the components yet but they are being done
[16:55] <eroomde> for 4.5V nominal
[16:55] <BrainDamage> but the question is, would the resulting quality of the chips be superior to solution piecing together readily made parts with top of tech?
[16:55] <Babs> as is the 3d sls gimbal
[16:55] <eroomde> and switch-mode down to 3v3
[16:55] <Hix> and babs, to answer your question, ideally you want 3.3v so either 3 batts or a step up
[16:55] <Babs> it is a big 2 weeks for stabilotron 2
[16:56] <eroomde> 2 weeks?
[16:56] <Babs> 3 batteries?
[16:56] <nats`> BrainDamage unless you have the same money as an international no....
[16:56] <Hix> sorry was thinking 1.2v NiMh not 1.5 lithium
[16:56] <nats`> *fab
[16:56] <Babs> 2 weeks - am en france this week, so will be assembling it this week
[16:56] <Babs> sorry next week i mean
[16:56] <eroomde> what's happening in france?
[16:57] <Babs> skiing
[16:57] <BrainDamage> which is why it's more for cool/hack factor than actual usage
[16:57] <Hix> food and wine I'm guessing
[16:57] <Babs> i went on the snow park with the kids today
[16:57] <Babs> well, not my kids
[16:57] <Hix> nice, whereabouts?
[16:57] <nats`> Hix we have hot chicks too !
[16:57] <Hix> :D
[16:57] <Babs> although a new speed record - 108 kph.
[16:57] <Babs> Avoriaz
[16:57] <eroomde> went off a cliff?
[16:58] <Babs> no, it was totally on piste. it was a little bit fast.
[16:58] <Babs> skis are a chattering at that speed
[16:59] <Babs> is it best to just put in two contact patches and connect it to a separate battery pack, rather than trying to fit a battery holder on the board?
[16:59] <Hix> you going to cycle the climb at Morzine? that's a beast, just down t'road
[16:59] <Babs> nope, it is a all downhill here. snow is brilliant at the mo, unlike my french.
[16:59] <Hix> oh, Babs check out Keystone battery clips, they look ideal
[16:59] <Babs> which is a green slope equivalent at best
[16:59] <BrainDamage> altough there's some fabs that allow design pooling, and give particular conditions, and allow using the low end part of the process that allow small quantities to be made for like 10-20k$
[17:00] <eroomde> a lot for hobby budgets, but not crazy
[17:00] <BrainDamage> altough I imagine the hab community will hardly be able to be a viable market for that
[17:00] <BrainDamage> yeah, it'd allow someone with commercial interests and an ok market to make them
[17:01] <eroomde> my kinda industry
[17:01] <eroomde> small volumes but highish budgets
[17:01] <LeoBodnar> You probably need $100k just to climb the learning curve
[17:01] <Babs> hix - http://www.rapidonline.com/Electrical-Power/Battery-Clip-for-A-AA-18-3505/?source=googleps&utm_source=googleps&gclid=CO2d_qTqnrwCFQ3JtAodCjQAyg ?
[17:01] <Babs> only aaa
[17:01] <Babs> ?
[17:01] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: oh gosh yes
[17:01] <Babs> through hole
[17:01] <LeoBodnar> to pay for embarassing mistakes
[17:01] <eroomde> there's a good free book actually on designing analogue ICs
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[17:01] <Hix> Babs sec, trying to find
[17:02] <BrainDamage> the typical metric for ic design teams is failure rates
[17:02] <LeoBodnar> I'd love to spin my own simple opamp
[17:02] <Babs> cool, and after you do that you can give me the Whitmarsh gossip Hix
[17:02] <BrainDamage> some of the pros boast 90% success rate at first try
[17:02] <eroomde> battery clicks - beware most brands
[17:02] <LeoBodnar> Even not working well
[17:02] <eroomde> they can have contact resistances up in the low ohms
[17:02] <Hix> Babs Whippy? He's gone?
[17:02] <eroomde> like easily 2 ohms
[17:02] <eroomde> terrible
[17:02] <BrainDamage> there's paul gray's book for opamp design
[17:02] <eroomde> try Bulgin ones - they're the best i've found
[17:02] <Babs> WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN Hix?
[17:03] <eroomde> very good mechnical battery retention and good low contact resistence
[17:03] <Hix> Babs page 10 http://mecint.co.uk/sitedocuments/1329738739batteryclipscontactsandholdersm60.pdf
[17:03] <BrainDamage> you'll need some background on the typical system analysis in laplace domain
[17:03] <Babs> ron did a coup, Boullier is now in charge
[17:03] <Hix> Babs learning python mostly :)
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[17:03] <BrainDamage> you won't even need much solid state physics, you can take the eq for granted and just check the params range
[17:03] <Babs> and the general best HAB form is to mount 3*AAA on the board rather than connect to separate battery pack?
[17:03] <BrainDamage> they are typicallydesigned most at transistor level
[17:04] <BrainDamage> and only layout optimized later
[17:04] <Babs> I guess the board provides the backbone stiffness, and it avoids having a wire flexing back and forth
[17:04] <BrainDamage> ( sorry for semi-offtopic )
[17:04] <Babs> ?
[17:06] <LeoBodnar> can you make a simple processor from a 2764 EPROM?
[17:06] <Hix> they look good to me Babs you can wire over the tangs too to stop batter escaping
[17:06] <Hix> hmmm
[17:07] <eroomde> http://bulgin.co.uk/Products/BatteryHolders/BatteryHolders.html
[17:07] <Hix> maybe don't batter your tracker, fish yes, board no
[17:07] <Babs> "you can wire over the tangs too to stop batter escaping" means what Hix?
[17:08] <LeoBodnar> model ICBM silo top http://bulgin.co.uk/Products/BatteryHolders/batts_images/BSX001_400px.jpg
[17:08] <BrainDamage> LeoBodnar: one of the simplest processors you can make is subtract and branch if 0 ( or branch if equal )
[17:08] <eroomde> complete with explosive ejection
[17:08] <Hix> Babs bottom of P.11
[17:08] <BrainDamage> iit's turing complete
[17:08] <eroomde> IP67 though!
[17:08] <BrainDamage> it requires a full adder, a mux and few registers
[17:08] <eroomde> just the ticket for a nice payload case
[17:09] <LeoBodnar> cool
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[17:09] <Babs> these are pretty eroomde http://bulgin.co.uk/Products/BatteryHolders/batts_images/BX0034_400px.jpg
[17:09] <BrainDamage> I warn you, writing a compiler for that will be a gigantic headache
[17:09] <Babs> i assume they mount through hole, so what are the metal tabs with the hole in for at the top?
[17:10] <eroomde> crimp if you want
[17:10] <eroomde> they' can do both
[17:10] <LeoBodnar> universal
[17:10] <eroomde> can just chop it off if you don't need it
[17:10] <LeoBodnar> ^^
[17:10] <eroomde> sorry not crimp, just soldering
[17:10] <eroomde> the countersunk mounts are also nice
[17:10] <Babs> so I can grab those, through hole solder 3 of them in series and i am done?
[17:10] <Hix> yup
[17:11] <eroomde> yup
[17:11] <Babs> cool. thanks. i am in tutorial 2 of jeremy blum eagle thing.
[17:11] <eroomde> i used the PP3 ones on our 2-stage rokcet flight computer
[17:11] <eroomde> did the job nicely
[17:11] <Babs> it all makes sense, although he says "whatnot" too much?
[17:13] <Hix> Babs http://goo.gl/HHNCOc and http://goo.gl/ILJYix shouldbe useful
[17:13] <Babs> ta Hix
[17:14] <eroomde> consider the pp3 batteries too
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[17:14] <eroomde> they have about the same energy density
[17:16] <Babs> ok. if i am looking at a board from the top, is a "via" essentially a copper column going from the top to the bottom?
[17:16] <Hix> yes
[17:16] <Hix> a tube through the board, drilled then plated
[17:17] <Hix> check out #hackvana for board advice his name is hackvana on there
[17:17] <eroomde> AAA: 246mWh/gram, PP3: 204mWh/g
[17:18] <eroomde> but equally less mass of plastic for the holders for a single pp3 than an equivalent energie's worth of AAAs
[17:18] <Babs> jeremy blum keeps on referring to "20 mill" for the drill. i think he means 2 mill?
[17:18] <Babs> 20 mill is an awfully wide drill, unless i am missing something
[17:18] <eroomde> i suspect 99.999% of board advice questions could be answered here
[17:18] <eroomde> mill is 1 thousandth of an inch
[17:19] <Hix> not metric mil Babs imperial mils :)
[17:19] <eroomde> it's NOT millimetres
[17:19] <Babs> man, what is it with imperial units
[17:19] <eroomde> electronics is a bit stuck
[17:19] <nats`> we should create a special police to kill every people refusing the metric system !
[17:19] <Babs> its like hanging onto betamax
[17:19] <BrainDamage> unfortunately most of the pcb industry is stuck with imperial
[17:19] <eroomde> 0.1" is still the standard pitch spacing for PTH things
[17:20] <nats`> by chance almost all SMT part are now specified in millimeter
[17:20] <LeoBodnar> I think PP3 uses different chemistry from AAs
[17:20] <nats`> and not in mil first
[17:20] <BrainDamage> and if you think that's awful, the semicond industry uses CGS
[17:20] <Babs> so i thought i would get my schematic finished (it is virtually there), check it out on here with youse guys, then try the whole pcb thing
[17:20] <BrainDamage> I still shudder at the tought of statcoulomb
[17:20] <LeoBodnar> Upu took one apart and it was 3 x 3v instead of 6 x 1.5v
[17:20] <eroomde> nats`: how about people in dark suits and dark glasses called Agents
[17:20] <eroomde> they could police the Metrics
[17:21] <nats`> I was more thinking at rose unicorn
[17:21] <nats`> nobody fear the unicorn
[17:21] <WillTablet> nats`: not a good idea
[17:21] <LeoBodnar> so PP3 low temp performance needs separate testing
[17:22] <nats`> Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition MOUHAHAHAHA
[17:22] <LeoBodnar> lol nats`
[17:22] <Babs> is there an easy shortcut for "put a hole in the pcb" for a through hole connection? or will the choice of component in the schematic automatically put a hole in (if applicable) when it comes to laying out the biard?
[17:22] <nats`> ok this evening bryan life !
[17:22] <Babs> *board
[17:23] <eroomde> Babs: 2 situations
[17:23] <eroomde> 1) it's a component that needs holes
[17:23] <eroomde> they'll have that automatically
[17:23] <eroomde> 2) you are drawing a pcb track, and watch to change to the bottom layer. in that case you have to manually change the layer
[17:23] <eroomde> you can do this with a middle-button click
[17:23] <eroomde> and it will automatically put a via in for you
[17:24] <WillTablet> It is really weird, I think of short distances in meters, heights in imperial and weight in imperial
[17:24] <Babs> ok thanks. i think i will just choose a through hole component, it looks easier
[17:24] <nats`> go for full metric !
[17:24] <nats`> choose a coherent unit system !
[17:24] <nats`> :p
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[17:27] <LeoBodnar> luckily conversion from metric to imperial is rational. I'd love to see À or fine structure constant in conversion ratio.
[17:28] <Babs> hix, are you still on?
[17:29] <Hix> yarp
[17:29] <Hix> Babs yes
[17:29] <Babs> so am i right in saying that the via is basically like the crossover in suzuka. gets traffic moving across a cross point without it getting nasty?
[17:30] <Hix> erm, don't get you. It allows you to go from top to bottom, say if you need to vross another net
[17:30] <Hix> for vross read cross
[17:30] <Hix> though vross works for suzuka i think
[17:31] <Babs> http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Circuit_Suzuka.png
[17:31] <Babs> you would draw two vias for this, one just under the 14, and one just above the 9 (both on the horizontal line)
[17:32] <Babs> (assuming that it wasn't a loop in the first place of course)
[17:32] <LeoBodnar> via is like an open hatch cover on a motorway
[17:33] <Babs> yes, thanks leobodnar
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[17:34] <BrainDamage> LeoBodnar: conversion from statcoulomb in cgs to coulomb in mks isn't uniquely determined and context dependent
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[17:35] <BrainDamage> oh and has irrational coefficients like pi in most of them :p
[17:36] <LeoBodnar> I love how theoretical physicists treat mathematics. Just redefine stuff including fundamental definitions as they go along. This used to piss off my math friends so much. Priceless and cheap entertainment.
[17:36] <M6KIK> So it turns out my house is a bit awkward for feeding aerials
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[17:38] <LeoBodnar> Like if results don't match newly cooked up theory declare difference as experiment error.
[17:38] <eroomde> through-hole is a bit backwards
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[17:39] <arko> also annoying
[17:39] <arko> the whole flipping the board thing
[17:40] <BrainDamage> I find the leg bending & trimming part more annoying than flipping
[17:40] <arko> oh yeah
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[17:40] <eroomde> nice for prototyping on copper-clad though
[17:40] <arko> then you got little bits of legs all over the place, sometimes if you aren't careful, they shoot across the room into another dimension
[17:41] <arko> eroomde: jim williams style
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[17:41] <eroomde> ugly-construction style
[17:41] <LeoBodnar> Like divide Planck constant by 2À and write it as h-bar to save writing 2À all the time. Then conveniently stop using the bar as everybody can guess that 2À is still there "from the context".
[17:41] <BrainDamage> ahahaha
[17:42] <eroomde> you might love engineering then
[17:42] <BrainDamage> technically they should've used hbar from start since hbar is more "natural" and appears verbatim more often
[17:42] <eroomde> seeing people cancel pi^2/g
[17:42] <eroomde> in dynamics problems
[17:42] <BrainDamage> everyone knows pi=3
[17:43] <arko> eroomde: omg wat
[17:43] <natrium42> Thanks for shipping so quickly, Upu! :)
[17:43] <eroomde> arko: it is 1.01, to be fair
[17:43] <eroomde> i have done it often :)
[17:43] <arko> haha
[17:43] <arko> show that to a mathematican
[17:43] <arko> they will explode
[17:44] <LeoBodnar> lol they usually storm out of the room
[17:44] <BrainDamage> just add +o(0.01)
[17:44] <BrainDamage> and they cannot complain
[17:45] <BrainDamage> when I use ugly approx, I invented a recursive "order of magnitude"
[17:45] <eroomde> it's all about getting an answer to within 5% good enough as quickly as possible :)
[17:45] <jonsowman> true
[17:45] <BrainDamage> so you look at the order of magnitude
[17:45] <BrainDamage> of order of magnitude
[17:45] <BrainDamage> and can continue iterating until it's the same
[17:45] <BrainDamage> and then decare everything to be the same number
[17:46] <LeoBodnar> Or just fudge the answer based on dimensions of the required result and input variables
[17:46] <LeoBodnar> and stick a "K" in front
[17:47] <LeoBodnar> dimensionless constant
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[18:27] <Laurenceb_> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xVXDjDVuhN4C&pg=PA122&lpg=PA122&dq=parks+1978+anti+riot+projectiles&source=bl&ots=BKN2nqLYHO&sig=INufNota5XRcWD3546I__S52uQA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=yqTmUqaGK6PT7AastYCoDA&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=parks%201978%20anti%20riot%20projectiles&f=false
[18:27] <Laurenceb_> this looks relevant to my interests
[18:27] <Laurenceb_> can't find full paper
[18:27] <eroomde> is this to supress the chickens?
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[18:29] <Laurenceb_> lol
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[18:29] <adamgreig> Laurenceb_: found it?
[18:29] <Laurenceb_> i was wondering how artillery shells work
[18:29] <Laurenceb_> nope lol
[18:29] <natrium42> Laurenceb_: did you finish your PhD?
[18:29] <Laurenceb_> and dont always land base down
[18:29] <adamgreig> conference proceeding
[18:29] <Laurenceb_> natrium42: kind of
[18:29] <adamgreig> The dynamic stability in flight of spinning blunt body projectiles
[18:29] <adamgreig> PARKS, P C. the actual text doesn't appear to be anywhere helpful
[18:30] <Laurenceb_> need to get feedback
[18:30] <Laurenceb_> from supervisors and stuff
[18:30] <natrium42> Laurenceb_: aah, cool, was just wondering what you're up to lately
[18:30] <Laurenceb_> i get paid to terrorise chickens
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[18:31] <natrium42> sweet!
[18:31] <Laurenceb_> eroomde: equation on page 121, its not as simple as it first appears
[18:31] <eroomde> closed the tab already
[18:31] <Laurenceb_> lol
[18:31] <adamgreig> hmmm hometime
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[18:34] <Laurenceb_> natrium42: basically im building Guantanamo bay for chickens
[18:34] <LeoBodnar> get some pictures Laurenceb_
[18:34] <LeoBodnar> leak them
[18:34] <Laurenceb_> its valuable IP
[18:35] <natrium42> Laurenceb_: you can use a chicken as a camera stabilization platform
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[18:35] <Laurenceb_> haha
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[18:36] <eroomde> leaked chicken pictures: http://bit.ly/1aYfUkL
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[18:36] <mattbrejza> if only Laurenceb_ 's 2kW thing also added seasoning
[18:36] <arko> :')
[18:37] <airgiraffe> hey guys, I'm looking at tracking options for a HA balloon, I'm not too bothered about tracking it while it's up high, but rather finding it's payload once it's reached the ground, any suggestions?
[18:37] <eroomde> the best way is to track it while it's up high
[18:37] <eroomde> i'm not being facetious
[18:38] <eroomde> the methods that rely on something happening once you've landed are by far the least reliable
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[18:38] <eroomde> vs tracking throughout, and so being able to predict the landing spot and get close
[18:38] <airgiraffe> I've looked at the spot 2, but the years subscription seems a bit pointless for one day
[18:38] <eroomde> see above
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[18:38] <daveake> which is important if it lands next to some low life who might steal the cameras
[18:39] <airgiraffe> yeah, I do understand that, the spot messenger apparently will track up to 60000 ft, though I'm not sure how reliable that info is
[18:39] <stilldavid> hi group! so a buddy of mine just got a washing machine that can acoustically couple to his smart phone
[18:39] <airgiraffe> which would mean I could at least follow it for most of the time
[18:39] <stilldavid> it sounds an awful lot like RTTY or similar...
[18:40] <arko> have audio?
[18:40] <stilldavid> https://vimeo.com/72156680
[18:40] <eroomde> airgiraffe: i've never been particularly impressed by them
[18:40] <arko> stilldavid: like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAXa3wTZjes
[18:40] <stilldavid> starts at :32 or so
[18:40] <arko> woah!
[18:40] <eroomde> they don't seem to hold a lock during flight aswell as they might - you expect a message once every 2 minutes say, but frequently people sort of get 3 in the first half an hour then nothing
[18:40] <arko> that totally sounds like rtty
[18:41] Action: M6KIK wonders where he might here ft5zm
[18:41] <airgiraffe> eroomde: ah okay, thanks, what would you suggest for a low budget way of tracking it?
[18:41] <stilldavid> arko: yeah, I might cut a WAV and throw it in fldigi just for fun
[18:41] Nick change: M6KIK -> Willdude123
[18:41] <arko> stilldavid: doooo itttt
[18:41] <daveake> the spot isn't low budget either
[18:41] <natrium42> eroomde: they seem to be quite reliable in getting the landing location though
[18:41] <eroomde> airgiraffe: where are you, geographically?
[18:41] <arko> oh death metal washing machine, you're so cool
[18:42] <airgiraffe> southwest england
[18:42] <eroomde> airgiraffe: ok cool
[18:42] <eroomde> well, i'd use a radio tracker
[18:42] <eroomde> you have an entire country full of people who track balloons at your disposal
[18:42] <arko> some say people in this channel can decode RTTY just by hearing it
[18:42] <daveake> Whereabouts in SW England?
[18:42] <airgiraffe> Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
[18:43] <natrium42> arko: i bet rocketboy could
[18:43] <eroomde> ha
[18:43] <eroomde> http://ukhas.org.uk/general:beginners_guide_to_high_altitude_ballooning
[18:43] <daveake> OK cool. Well I'm moving to Ross On Wye next month
[18:43] <eroomde> read that ^
[18:43] <daveake> and if available I'd be happy to help out
[18:43] <eroomde> pleasingly, my friend has just s[prained a tendon in his hand
[18:44] <eroomde> which is apparently what schumann himself did, by trying to play the schumann tocatta
[18:44] <eroomde> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waS2A8en7ps
[18:44] <somebody__> Hi while we are on the subject I need some advice on a NTX2 which option do I need?
[18:44] <eroomde> somebody__: you want the mates rates option
[18:45] <eroomde> talk to Upu who runs the store
[18:45] <airgiraffe> daveake: thanks a lot for the offer
[18:45] <Upu> tis done
[18:46] <eroomde> like a boss
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[18:46] <eroomde> and then he was gone
[18:46] <eroomde> like Zorro
[18:47] <daveake> You know Zorro. He could be anywhere.
[18:48] <eroomde> he's just zorro he had to leave without saying goodbye
[18:49] <daveake> :)
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[18:55] <jededu> eroomde got the mates rates thanks
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[18:57] <Upu> don't advertise it on here pls :)
[18:57] <jededu> Ok
[18:57] Nick change: w4808 -> ibanezmatt13
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[19:02] <jededu> Advice please - is it worth going for an active antenna on the uBLOX GPS over the fixed Sarantel antenna version
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[19:09] <M0RJX> ping upu
[19:11] <M0RJX> zeusbot
[19:11] <M0RJX> zeusbot help
[19:15] <natrium42> denied
[19:18] <jededu> upu
[19:18] <M0RJX> lol
[19:19] <jededu> ;)
[19:19] <M0RJX> natrium42 how you doing?
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[19:20] <natrium42> good, finally getting back into HAB
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[19:20] <natrium42> going to fly a 3 axis camera gimbal
[19:21] <jcoxon> natrium42, hooray
[19:21] <M0RJX> ooh nice
[19:21] <M0RJX> I'v had quite a break too
[19:21] <natrium42> hey james
[19:21] <M0RJX> About 4 years loking at my website
[19:21] <natrium42> :D
[19:21] <M0RJX> Eveing jcoxon
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[19:22] <natrium42> met up with Dan and some other SNOX guys over the weekend
[19:22] <M0RJX> just brought a couple of radios from Upu to see if I can get domino ex working for next hab
[19:22] <jcoxon> natrium42, oh wow, old school habbing
[19:23] <natrium42> were chatting about replicating fsphil's ssdv over here
[19:23] <M0RJX> It's all so small these days. Looking at the tracker on Upu's website and some of the records
[19:23] <M0RJX> sstv or ssdv?
[19:24] <jcoxon> ssdv is fun
[19:25] <M0RJX> oh cool just perused the UKHAS ssdv guide
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[19:27] <fsphil> did I just step back in time?
[19:27] <M0RJX> lol
[19:27] <M0RJX> probably should nick to rharrison
[19:29] <M0RJX> I'm going to have a play with dominoex on FM22b radio's on Upu's site
[19:29] <daveake> I had to google your nick :)
[19:29] <fsphil> we've gotten thor working too M0RJX
[19:29] <eroomde> M0RJX: good to see you back
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[19:30] <fsphil> it's like domex but with error correction
[19:30] <Lunar_Lander> natrium42, cool!
[19:30] <M0RJX> hey eroomde how's it going. You working at ESA yet?
[19:30] <M0RJX> Ooh thor sounds great
[19:30] <eroomde> that came and went
[19:30] <eroomde> working on skylon now
[19:31] <eroomde> happier by a factor of about 1000
[19:31] <M0RJX> anyone managed to get reliable 2way going yet
[19:31] <eroomde> M0RJX: we did it in 2009 for the esa drop vehicle
[19:31] <eroomde> for some values of reliable
[19:31] <M0RJX> as in space acess
[19:32] <eroomde> yes
[19:32] <M0RJX> eroomde i remember that well but I wondered if anyone had got anything reliable and less than a GW base station
[19:32] <eroomde> GW?
[19:33] <M0RJX> iirc the gigwatt
[19:33] <eroomde> oh!
[19:33] <eroomde> right
[19:33] <eroomde> (it was only about 10W :p)
[19:33] <eroomde> no not really
[19:33] <eroomde> as far as i know
[19:33] <eroomde> sadly gtg
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[19:34] <fsphil> reliable 2 way would be amazing
[19:34] <M0RJX> Should it be do able at 10mw or is the sensitivity of the radios way to low?
[19:34] <natrium42> going to start simple for now
[19:34] <fsphil> the highest power level for ISM would be on 869mhz .. that might be the best for 2 way
[19:35] <natrium42> do a similar design to upu's pava9 tracker
[19:35] <eroomde> bbl
[19:35] <M0RJX> ttfn
[19:35] <natrium42> then we can share code as well, which is good
[19:36] <natrium42> see you, eroomde
[19:36] <M0RJX> supper calls
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[19:58] <Upu> woo missed the fun
[19:58] <Upu> welcome natrium42
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[20:00] <arko> that reminds me, i need to solder up the cubex board this week
[20:01] <Upu> I just placed a monster order with Mitch
[20:01] <arko> nice!
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[20:01] <arko> right before chinese new year?
[20:01] <arko> are you gonna make it?
[20:01] <Upu> middle of it
[20:02] <arko> ah
[20:02] <arko> ok
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[20:02] <arko> so you wont get it till after?
[20:02] <Upu> yup
[20:02] <arko> cool, o well
[20:02] <Upu> bad timing but hey ho
[20:02] <arko> alright, lunch time.
[20:02] <Upu> enjoy
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[20:31] <ibanezmatt13> I don't know if anybody's an expert on the bubble sort, but surely you have to keep comparing elements and making passes until in the last pass you've only made 1 comparison
[20:31] <ibanezmatt13> I may be wrong, but I was taught that a computer wouldn't know it's in order until it's down to the pass where there's only one possible comparison
[20:32] <fsphil> it continues until there have been no changes to the list
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[20:32] <ibanezmatt13> in that case, I've been taught wrong :)
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[20:33] <ibanezmatt13> or more likely I've misunderstood, thank you!
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[20:34] <mfa298> I wouldn't be surprised if you've been taught wrong (at least based on my experience of ALevel Computing many years ago)
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[20:35] <ibanezmatt13> This is maths :)
[20:36] <ibanezmatt13> Seriously though, ALL the examples in the booklet we have go down until the comparisons made on a pass is = 1
[20:36] <mfa298> hopefully maths might be slightly better than computing.
[20:36] <ibanezmatt13> oh it's great yeah
[20:37] <ibanezmatt13> So in some examples, 3 of the last passes remain unchanged until there is only 1 comparison to make. But the AQA mark scheme fits fsphil's version
[20:37] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb ahoy
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[20:38] <Willdude123> So I found an excuse to take my radio on a school trip to s'oton. Am looking at which repeaters I might access. We are visiting a building site for a STEM thing. We have to bring an item that represents a stem proffesion.
[20:38] <Willdude123> So I chose my radio, for RF engineering
[20:38] <mfa298> when you're really bored of doing it on paper, you can do various sorts with dance: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyZQPjUT5B4
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[20:39] <ibanezmatt13> lol yeah I've seen that before :)
[20:39] <mfa298> Willdude123: I think the nearest repeaters are currently SN, ET and JB. everything else is offline.
[20:40] <Willdude123> mfa298, do you live near So'ton?
[20:40] <mfa298> In in soton
[20:40] <fsphil> that's near
[20:40] <Willdude123> Do you know where the "City Gateway" site is? That's where we're going
[20:41] <mfa298> there's a few things that might be classed as City gateway depending on who your talking to.
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[20:41] <Willdude123> http://bouygues-uk.com/southampton-city-gateway/
[20:41] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: yo
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[20:42] <Willdude123> What about FN? That's near-ish
[20:42] <mfa298> I think I know where that is
[20:43] <mfa298> Not sure I'd call farnham near southampton
[20:43] <mfa298> unless you want to say London is near soton
[20:43] <LeoBodnar> I have FM modulated I/Q of LO to spread it a bit: http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/FMmodulatedLO.png
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> thats different
[20:44] <Willdude123> mfa298, I'm more thinking on the way.
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> looks nicer
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> i still prefer 16 bit fixed point
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> not bad at all
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[20:44] <LeoBodnar> oh yeah I would too
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> very unconventional
[20:44] <mfa298> from basingstoke to get closer to FN you'de be travelling towards london.
[20:44] <Laurenceb_> but.... you are wedded to PIC
[20:45] <Willdude123> mfa298, there really aren't that many repeaters around are there?
[20:45] <LeoBodnar> it's OCD but I am working on it
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[20:45] <Laurenceb_> with XOR dont you need a massive lookup table?
[20:45] <mfa298> Willdude123: there were but they're all offline.
[20:45] <mfa298> Was one of the IoW and two in soton.
[20:45] <Willdude123> Might it look a bit weird to use a radio on the minibus
[20:45] <LeoBodnar> this is 1ms integration btw
[20:46] <mikestir> we have loads of repeaters up here
[20:46] <LeoBodnar> so 2K table per frequency
[20:46] <mikestir> some really good ones as well
[20:46] <mikestir> suppose that's a bonus of being near some big hills
[20:46] <mfa298> and I think the pompey repeaters are off more than they're on
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> basically it's a gentle spread spectrum to widen the spectral width of LO
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> maybe some clever SS is better
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> or sinc or whatever
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[20:48] <mikestir> fsphil: interference isn't the streetlights, but it does appear to be radiated by them
[20:49] <mikestir> very odd
[20:49] <Laurenceb_> a phasor rotate is just a value...
[20:50] <LeoBodnar> If you can widen LO spectrum to 5kHz then no need to chase doppler at all perhaps
[20:50] <LeoBodnar> *if signal is strong
[20:51] <LeoBodnar> /wild speculation
[20:52] <Laurenceb_> mind explosion
[20:52] <Laurenceb_> i tihnk that gives you too much noise?
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[20:53] <LeoBodnar> integrate over longer length?
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> i guess incoherent versus coherent integration..
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> this might even work
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[20:53] <Laurenceb_> bbl
[20:53] <LeoBodnar> just stick an AM diode detector in that GPS
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[21:14] <Laurenceb_> i guess if hypothetically you could get a signal with 1ms of coherent integration
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> then if you has 10khz of noise bandwidth instead of ~1khz
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> you would then need 10ms of incoherent integration
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> im confused as to what this would look like "on the ground"...
[21:15] <Laurenceb_> bbl
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[21:39] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: I guess a deliberately "noisy" 4Mhz LO to spread things +-5kHz followed by averaging and FFT search
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> very unconventional... im not sure how well it would work
[21:39] <Laurenceb_> bbl
[21:42] <LeoBodnar> we shall see
[21:42] <Laurenceb_> i think at least 40ms of raw data would be needed to see anything
[21:43] <LeoBodnar> this can be tried on Kai dataset
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[21:48] <SpeedEvil> ...
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: You mean a LO with jitter, to spread out the 'hard edges' of a simple xor, and make the look smooth - once you average it all?
[21:48] <SpeedEvil> Funky
[21:50] <LeoBodnar> SpeedEvil: red vs black http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/FMmodulatedLO.png
[21:51] <iain_g4sgx> Evening guys, STILL waiting for my proto to die, still going strong, been 32+ hrs so far. DEF only need a single AAA especially with some power saving.
[21:51] <Laurenceb_> make that 80ms of data
[21:51] <Laurenceb_> to be equivalent to 2ms coherent with doppler
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[21:53] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: I note that the performance of xor seems significantly better than doing it 'properly'.
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: Is this just an artifact?
[21:53] <SpeedEvil> ^modulated
[21:53] <natrium42> iain_g4sgx: what are you using?
[21:54] <iain_g4sgx> natrium42: PIC 18F87J94 with an Si4032
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[21:55] <LeoBodnar> pure XOR is very rough
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[21:55] <natrium42> iain_g4sgx: cool, which gps chipset?
[21:55] <LeoBodnar> adding jitter softens artefacts
[21:55] <LeoBodnar> *seemingly
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[21:57] <iain_g4sgx> natrium42: Ublox6 but moving to Ublox7 for final board as doing at 1.8v, (proto is 3.3v). Tempted to add tcxo but think i'd better get on and fire eagle up and leave that for next version.
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[21:59] <natrium42> iain_g4sgx: cool, i am planning to make something like that too over this weekend
[21:59] <natrium42> though probably using an avr
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[22:02] <SpeedEvil> LeoBodnar: Adding jutter would seem to me to be (with the right jitter) the exact equivalent of floating point. At least in principle.
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[22:03] <SpeedEvil> With a fundamentally noisy signal, of course.
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[22:03] <LeoBodnar> Gaussian magic
[22:03] <SpeedEvil> And you ideally wouldn't want random jitter of course
[22:04] Action: SpeedEvil wonders about oddnesses.
[22:04] <LeoBodnar> Need to ask opinion on audiophile forums.
[22:05] <SpeedEvil> hah
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[22:06] <iain_g4sgx> Minimum weight and power saving appeals.. Been many years since I designed a PCB though.
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[22:09] <natrium42> :D
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[22:10] <natrium42> i have been using eagle, but want to try altium for that projectr
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[22:16] <iain_g4sgx> Altium eh. Is it free? Like to encourage open source plus I'm a skin flint..
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: so i think this might actually be sane...
[22:16] <Laurenceb_> dopplerless GPS
[22:17] <LeoBodnar> yeah the crazier the better
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> if you go too long with the integration you run into issues where the chip length differs due to doppler
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> but that takes about 300ms
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> and i think you need of order 100ms incoherent integration
[22:17] <Laurenceb_> you have to ensure that your LO is truly random
[22:18] <Laurenceb_> it cant repeat itself or you will run into features in the FFT that stop this working
[22:18] <Laurenceb_> but then you can integrate into 1ms chunks and use fft to search
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[22:19] <Laurenceb_> bbl
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[22:21] <LeoBodnar> What is the BW of VCO in these frontends? Maybe mix up Zener-based white noise into reference clock
[22:22] <natrium42> iain_g4sgx: what kind of dcdc converter are you using?
[22:24] <iain_g4sgx> natrium42; MAX 1724, 3.3V. easy circuit seems quiet.
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[22:25] <iain_g4sgx> Not too efficient on big voltage steps though, 1.2V to 3.3v it didnt like
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[22:25] <LeoBodnar> Offset of chipping rate at 5000Hz doppler shift is such that it is about 1/4 of a chip at the end of 120msec integration period
[22:26] <iain_g4sgx> 2.2V+ and its happy and quiet efficient though
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[22:34] <steve_2e0vet> eagle is telling me I have 3 airwires to connect. I cannot see them is there any thing i can do to find them?
[22:35] <jonsowman> hit the router tool and zoom way, way, way out
[22:35] <jonsowman> then click until it connects with an airwire
[22:35] <jonsowman> then zoom back in and see where it came from
[22:36] <jonsowman> ridiculous but it works
[22:37] <natrium42> iain_g4sgx: ah cool, does it work at 1.8 as well?
[22:37] <natrium42> haha jonsowman
[22:37] <natrium42> i used to turn off layers
[22:38] <jonsowman> also works but they can still be hard to find
[22:38] <iain_g4sgx> Theres no fixed voltage version for 1.8v alas so Ill have to use another chip or use the variable voltage version.
[22:38] <jonsowman> if they're super tiny stupid ones
[22:39] <iain_g4sgx> but need to look at the curves etc first
[22:40] <steve_2e0vet> which is the router tool?
[22:41] <jonsowman> the normal one for routing traces
[22:41] <jonsowman> F9 if you're using the sparkfun shortcuts
[22:42] <steve_2e0vet> think i may have found them thanks
[22:42] <Laurenceb_> <LeoBodnar> Offset of chipping rate at 5000Hz doppler shift is such that it is about 1/4 of a chip at the end of 120msec integration period
[22:42] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[22:42] <Laurenceb_> so you can do 120ms
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[22:43] <Laurenceb_> so relative to 2ms you spread the gps from 500hz bandwidth to 10kHz, i.e. power/20 I guess...
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[22:44] <Laurenceb_> then 2ms -> 120 gives power *60
[22:44] <eroomde> i wsa seeing what the cutoff filter was llike on my old tek scope earlier with the rf gen, and it struck me quite forcefully that 100MHz is reallflipping fast
[22:44] <Laurenceb_> then you have 1ms FFT based search, so 1kHz noise bandwidth more or less
[22:44] <eroomde> one hundred million oscillations per second
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[22:44] <Laurenceb_> yup
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> so double the noise of 2ms
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[22:45] <Laurenceb_> overall:
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> 1/20*60 -> 3 times signal
[22:45] <Laurenceb_> twice the noise
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[22:45] <Laurenceb_> so better than 2ms integration
[22:46] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar has invented doppler free A-GPS ?!
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[22:47] <LeoBodnar> eroomde: I like when frequencies are written as "100 megacycles"
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[22:48] <eroomde> yes
[22:48] <eroomde> i should go back to that
[22:48] <eroomde> and smoke a pipe
[22:48] <eroomde> and have a jumper with an extremely brown-centric knitted pattern
[22:48] <LeoBodnar> listening to the wireless and reading the morning paper
[22:49] <LeoBodnar> *delivered in the morning actually
[22:49] <Willdude123_> Finding out that Britain is at war with Germany
[22:49] <Willdude123_> Aaahh
[22:49] <Willdude123_> Those were the days
[22:49] <LeoBodnar> for the first time or the second Willdude123_ ?
[22:49] <Willdude123_> 2nd
[22:49] <Willdude123_> Well, I assume both
[22:50] <LeoBodnar> This must have been patented already Laurenceb_
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[22:52] <Willdude123_> Mfw I have no idea what you are talking about
[22:52] <iain_g4sgx> Oooh, patents mentioned, above my head but I sense a certain excitement.. Can I carry your books? lol
[22:52] <eroomde> i am bidding on a tek 475
[22:52] <eroomde> for added beinge-jumperness
[22:52] <eroomde> beige*
[22:53] <Willdude123_> :-( my mum told me I can't use my handheld ham radio outside because it's "asking for trouble"
[22:53] <iain_g4sgx> True, people could think it was CB
[22:53] <iain_g4sgx> :)
[22:54] <iain_g4sgx> I had my first lcence when I was 14, G6HZU, used to go around on my push bike /mobile. great fun
[22:54] <Willdude123_> Noooo
[22:55] <Willdude123_> NOT CB
[22:55] <iain_g4sgx> yep, small motor bike battery
[22:55] <Willdude123_> I'm going to anyhow
[22:56] <Willdude123_> Parents are totes annoying
[22:56] <iain_g4sgx> Our local club has a 'bright sparks' club for young amateurs, quite well attended.
[22:59] <gonzo__> there days people would think a hhld is a really old phone
[22:59] <gonzo__> hheld
[22:59] <Willdude123_> Exactly
[22:59] <Willdude123_> iain_g4sgx: how your?
[22:59] <Willdude123_> *young
[22:59] <eroomde> henry (cusf) once made a sign for the autoclave in the university engineering department saying "Maximum Capacity: 6 Children". the materials science technician had quite a snse of humour failure over it
[23:00] <iain_g4sgx> how am I young? Its a talent.
[23:00] <eroomde> that was the end of our encouraging young ones
[23:00] <steve_2e0vet> is it me or does it look like the centre pin of the BUS_SMA is going to ground http://imgur.com/xT7Clw9
[23:00] <craag> When using my handheld in soton, I twice got accused of being plainclothes police.
[23:00] <gonzo__> was it a gingerbread lab eroomde?
[23:00] <eroomde> you're right steve_2e0vet
[23:00] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: there seems to be a window of feasibility
[23:00] <eroomde> check the scehmatic
[23:01] <Laurenceb_> around 100ms incoherent integration
[23:01] <eroomde> might have accidently attached that pin to gnd
[23:01] <Laurenceb_> bbl
[23:01] <Willdude123_> iain_g4sgx: I meant what ages is it for?
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[23:01] <gonzo__> people get these 446meg radios from argos to chat whilst out, or for gran to call downstairs
[23:01] <LeoBodnar> need a 100ms of samples to test
[23:02] <Willdude123_> Oh wow, rara replied, it still exists. Their site looked a bit dead
[23:02] <gonzo__> so radios are reasonably commoin
[23:02] <Oddstr13> gonzo__: or for kids to play spies with!
[23:03] <iain_g4sgx> Willdude123: about 9 to 16 ish i think.
[23:03] <Willdude123_> Okay
[23:04] <eroomde> whenever you look for old test equipment on ebay, there is always an example of what you want from a seller in isreal that has bullet holes, fire damage, acid attack, and bent bnc connectors
[23:04] <eroomde> what they hell do they do to this stuff?
[23:04] <eroomde> is there some subculture of extremely angry isreali EE?
[23:04] <Oddstr13> what range does a HAB transmitter achieve? at max altitude or so that is
[23:04] <gonzo__> sounds like some of the kit here that I've lost my rag with
[23:05] <Willdude123_> Sell, they might have shot it, set fire to it, attacked it with acid and bent the BNC connectors
[23:05] <Willdude123_> *well
[23:05] <steve_2e0vet> schematic looks ok http://imgur.com/pqVMwn2
[23:05] <eroomde> Oddstr13: 500km is not uncommon
[23:05] <eroomde> for 10mW 434MHz
[23:05] <eroomde> records are up around 700km i think
[23:05] <gonzo__> the usual end of deak kit here was dumped in the garden, shot up with the airgun and then onto the bonfire
[23:05] <eroomde> with the occassional fable of 1000km thanks to strange atmospheric ducting and fairies
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[23:06] <Willdude123_> So I'm going to this stem thing tomorrow, to look at a building site in Southampton. We had to take a thing that represents a stem career. So I chose a radio, for rf enfineering
[23:06] <Oddstr13> eroomde: hmm.. let me go draw that on a map :P
[23:06] <Willdude123_> Gah my typing is awfuk
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[23:06] <eroomde> a splendid typo
[23:06] <LazyLeopard> ;)
[23:07] <eroomde> Oddstr13: if you can use HF frequencies, the sky-wave is the limit
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[23:07] <gonzo__> should they not stream kids into different career types?
[23:07] <Oddstr13> eroomde: oh, i was thinking on being on the receiving end :P just tracking
[23:08] <gonzo__> Oddstr13, where are you?
[23:09] <eroomde> cool - where are you based Oddstr13?
[23:09] <eroomde> what gonzo said
[23:09] <Oddstr13> Norway
[23:10] <steve_2e0vet> looks better http://imgur.com/fHNX6Gy
[23:10] <gonzo__> I like playing snap
[23:10] <eroomde> where in norway?
[23:10] <eroomde> oslo good, tromso bad
[23:10] <LeoBodnar> I read it as "where is norway" lol
[23:10] <Oddstr13> https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Rennebu,+Norway&hl=en&sll=56.704506,24.433594&sspn=26.829346,79.013672&oq=rennebu&t=h&hnear=Rennebu,+Sor-Trondelag,+Norway&z=9
[23:11] <iain_g4sgx> Im really keen to stick this proto in the sky. Its too heavy for a foil, but can I connect 2 or 3 foils together and still stay within the 2m rule?
[23:11] <craag> iain_g4sgx: How heavy is it?
[23:11] <LeoBodnar> Oddstr13: we need you for Arctic challenge (when it comes)
[23:11] <eroomde> that looks like wilderness Oddstr13
[23:12] <iain_g4sgx> I forget, think about 40g with battery but will hae to check
[23:12] <arko> hah
[23:12] <gonzo__> if you tie the necks of foild together you should be ok with 2, poss 3
[23:12] <eroomde> arko, for it is he
[23:12] <craag> iain_g4sgx: For a burst flight that'd be fine, wouldn't go high but I've flown 50g up to 3500m
[23:12] <arko> i am here
[23:12] <LeoBodnar> iain_g4sgx: yes, they stay flat-ish when inflated, 3 will still fit in
[23:12] <arko> my presense
[23:12] <gonzo__> mine last one was about 30gm, and was great with 2 foils
[23:12] <iain_g4sgx> cool thanks.
[23:12] <arko> presence*
[23:12] <craag> (mine had a camera)
[23:12] <gonzo__> inflated for bearly 1gm free lift
[23:13] <Oddstr13> it's between 1000km and 2000km away from the launches listed on spacenear.us :/
[23:13] <Willdude123_> gonzo__: well yes. But tbh its optional
[23:13] <eroomde> quite a few drift north into the north sea
[23:13] <eroomde> but you might be abit far north
[23:13] <eroomde> you can track my sounding rocket drom kiruna or andoya
[23:13] <Oddstr13> LeoBodnar: i'd love to! i need to get myself some gear first tho
[23:14] <eroomde> or have a go at a hab yourself!
[23:14] <Willdude123_> gonzo__: eroomde linked me to a call centre documentary a while back. That really gave me a self esteem boost to not end up in a job like that
[23:14] <eroomde> is suspect the pictures of the landscape from up there would be stunning
[23:15] <Willdude123_> I'll probably end up doing something stem related.
[23:15] <gonzo__> Willdude123_, catually I'd have loved to go to a building site. Just for a jolly though. Then again, I do concreting and reroofing on my own house. Only because I'm tight!
[23:15] <Willdude123_> RF engineering sounds fun
[23:15] <eroomde> Willdude123_: birthday present idea: The Art of Electronics
[23:15] <Oddstr13> eroomde: well, i have no experience with either ham or HABs :P
[23:16] <Willdude123_> eroomde: noted
[23:16] <gonzo__> I have to remind my daughter of that by lointing out the women on the checkout in tesco
[23:16] <eroomde> Oddstr13: then you'vve come to the right place :)
[23:16] <gonzo__> pointing
[23:16] <iain_g4sgx> The Art of Electronics, is that still going? Was my bible
[23:16] <eroomde> yes
[23:16] <eroomde> still is the bible
[23:16] <gonzo__> Horowitz and hill !
[23:16] <Willdude123_> I have a load of textbooks I havent really read for one reason or another
[23:16] <Oddstr13> ordered this thingy yesterday http://www.ebay.com/itm/310838282583
[23:16] <Oddstr13> ^^
[23:16] <iain_g4sgx> Still got an old copy
[23:16] <gonzo__> (Mine has a diy dust cover on 'Electronics for dogs'
[23:17] <eroomde> Oddstr13: awesome
[23:17] <Willdude123_> Like FLOP and numerous programming ones
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[23:17] <gonzo__> so that's what it is nown as amongst friends
[23:18] <Oddstr13> eroomde: i hope it isn't gona take over a month to ship, i kinda wana play with it now xD
[23:18] <Willdude123_> No, amongst me :-)
[23:18] <gonzo__> should get a book to rename 'electronic surveilance for dogs' after the loaf and death
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[23:19] <Willdude123_> Oh and I got Spivak calculus from the library and I'm probably not going to read it
[23:19] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/ePPS51a.gif.jpg
[23:19] <eroomde> Willdude123_: that's heavy stuff
[23:19] <Oddstr13> hm.. i guess it's kinda late to play with the radio today :P
[23:19] <Willdude123_> That's the problem, I start all this courses and almost always drop out
[23:20] <eroomde> with the art of electronics you can start playing on a breadboard
[23:20] <Willdude123_> I passed one, and that was Udacity physics
[23:20] <Willdude123_> Am I putting too much pressure on myself?
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[23:21] <eroomde> Willdude123_: maybe yes
[23:21] <eroomde> or at least, you should just enjoy the ride
[23:21] <Oddstr13> eroomde: haha, i would not like to smell those socks xD
[23:22] <Willdude123_> Mfw I get an email http://i.imgur.com/We7ri5D.gif
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[23:22] <eroomde> rather than trying to run at loads of different targets
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[23:23] <iain_g4sgx> Recommend the Art of Electronics, still refer to it and starts right from the beginning and covers loads. Classic university 1st year text book.
[23:23] <Willdude123_> Yuhuh
[23:24] <Willdude123_> Trying to learn calculus while trying to learn physics and networking while trying to learn 30 French words I'll forget by next week while trying not to procrastinate is hard
[23:25] <eroomde> yeah
[23:25] <eroomde> relax a bit
[23:26] <hix> Am I unlucky or is the rev 1 Pi [B] a complete p.o.c? Anytime I try to do anything with the picam it crashes the board
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[23:26] <Oddstr13> any diy guide to convert headphone output to pc mic input? would've been nice to be able to pipe the output of a normal radio into my laptop's mic input
[23:26] <eroomde> i think it is a poc
[23:26] <eroomde> i don't think you can convert an headphone out to a mic or lin/in
[23:26] <eroomde> line in*
[23:27] <eroomde> but certainly you should be able to plug an audio source into your line in / mic in
[23:27] <Oddstr13> well, the problem is that i don't have line in
[23:27] <eroomde> ah
[23:27] <eroomde> lots of people use usb soundcards
[23:28] <eroomde> they're only like 10 euros
[23:28] <eroomde> and work great
[23:28] <gonzo__> by convert, I think he means - interface
[23:28] <iain_g4sgx> think there was a maplins buffer board that did that, maybe wong.
[23:28] <iain_g4sgx> wrong even..
[23:29] <LeoBodnar> Using USB for sound input on SPI enabled embedded system is awful
[23:29] <gonzo__> mic in, is a sort of line in. just more sensitive
[23:29] <Oddstr13> convert, as in circuitry to convert the audio output of a radio to the levels safe to pipe into the mic input
[23:29] <iain_g4sgx> most pc-mic in's work with line level inputs
[23:29] <eroomde> oh sorry right
[23:29] <LeoBodnar> I despair
[23:30] <Oddstr13> cause putting a mic to the speaker kinda degrades the allready crappy signal quite a bit :P
[23:31] <Willdude123_> eroomde: mais le verbs francais are tres annoying et ma proffeseur de francais est un sal*pe
[23:31] <gonzo__> best way to connect the two, is with an isolation transformer. I scavenge them off old pc modem cards
[23:31] <hix> i just used a lead from headphone on the AOR to the line in on my thinkpad, works fine
[23:32] <gonzo__> if the signal is too high for the mic in, you can attenuate it with a potential divider
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[23:35] <Oddstr13> gonzo__: i can find those guys on winmodems, right?
[23:36] Action: Oddstr13 goes to dig in boxes
[23:37] <hix> c'est professeur, et je pense c'est traditionnel et poli a dit Mon professeur c'est vrai nats` ?
[23:38] <Willdude123_> Whut?
[23:39] <gonzo__> Oddstr13, I used to get them from pci modems. 56k type or similar
[23:39] <gonzo__> you can buy the transformers, but I'm tight
[23:40] <Oddstr13> gonzo__: looks like small inductors, with 2 wires and 4 legs?
[23:42] <Oddstr13> gonzo__: also, winmodem, as in software modem with propriotary protocol & windows only drivers - as opposed to a hardware modem, or a softmodem supported by linux
[23:42] <Oddstr13> aka good-for-nothing cards i have lying around from scavaging old computers :P
[23:43] <gonzo__> not sure what they are
[23:43] <gonzo__> but an modem that interfaces to a telephone line will prob have one
[23:44] <gonzo__> they may be a little iron transformer, or may be potted in a block
[23:44] <Oddstr13> this card i found might actually be ISDN
[23:45] <Oddstr13> cause it has the RJ45 plug :/
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[23:46] <Oddstr13> gonzo__: it has 2 of those small thingies that is inside this thing on it tho; http://www.rj45transformer.com/photo/pl682292-high_voltage_safety_24pin_isolated_transformers_power_isolation_transformer_1000base.jpg
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[23:47] <Oddstr13> just remembered - i picked apart a fax machine a litle while ago :P
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[23:49] <Oddstr13> that ferrite with 2 copper wires wrapped around it is probably what i'm looking for :P
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[23:49] <Oddstr13> looks like it's 1:1 windings
[23:50] <Oddstr13> also is something looking like gas discharge tubes right next to it ^^
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[00:00] --- Tue Jan 28 2014