highaltitude.log.20140126

[00:00] <brainles71> i had a look at spacenear.us and there was 3 balloons launching out of the UK
[00:00] <gonzo_nb> that's about leo's total for a week!
[00:00] <brainles71> crap...
[00:00] <gonzo_nb> think the three on at the mo are just ground based tests
[00:01] <brainles71> i haven't looked today
[00:01] <Willdude> I just freaked out and thought it was sunday night
[00:01] <gonzo_nb> hehe, not quite, but leo had had a pretty rapid ascent (pun?) up the launch ranking
[00:01] <gonzo_nb> whgat's up, homework outstanding?
[00:02] <brainles71> What do you guys launch for? Hobby? What do your payloads carry?
[00:02] <gonzo_nb> brainles71, bestv advice is to read the ukhas wiki, and filter out the bits that are not relevent to .au
[00:02] <brainles71> i have been
[00:03] <gonzo_nb> ia's a broard church here
[00:03] <brainles71> just trying to decode jargon and learn everything
[00:03] <gonzo_nb> most start just launching simple trackers to get some experience
[00:03] <brainles71> i need to get my radio license. That will probably help
[00:03] <gonzo_nb> then some cameras, poss some measuremenyt kit
[00:04] <gonzo_nb> some play with different balloon styles to get floating long duration
[00:05] <brainles71> poss?
[00:05] <brainles71> positioning?
[00:05] <gonzo_nb> setrting up a receive station is a good start for hab adamateur radio
[00:05] <gonzo_nb> possilby
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[00:05] <gonzo_nb> ore even possably
[00:06] <gonzo_nb> my spelling is bad, but typing is worse!
[00:06] <brainles71> no worries gonzo!
[00:07] <gonzo_nb> ok it's morning now!
[00:07] <brainles71> haha
[00:07] <brainles71> welcome to the other side
[00:08] <gonzo_nb> I do mpst of my best work on 'this side'
[00:08] <gonzo_nb> most
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[00:40] <chrisstubbs> Does anyone have experience mounting the JTI chip antennas parallel to a ground plane?
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[00:45] <brainles71> none what so ever
[00:46] <brainles71> if you find out how id be interested to learn
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[00:48] <chrisstubbs> haha same
[00:48] <chrisstubbs> everyone is too scared to do it incase you end up with 10 scrap boards
[00:48] <chrisstubbs> I suppose I could design the boards with pads at 0 and 90 degrees as an experiment
[00:48] <WillTablet> chrisstubbs: so I almost have the boards soldered now, just got all the smd to go.
[00:49] <WillTablet> And guess what?
[00:49] <WillTablet> Hackvana emailed me
[00:49] <WillTablet> And said the original lot turned yp
[00:49] <WillTablet> *up
[00:49] <chrisstubbs> ah customs return?
[00:50] <WillTablet> Well, he sent them, nothing happened
[00:50] <WillTablet> He sent another lot
[00:50] <WillTablet> They came
[00:50] <WillTablet> Now the original lot turned up
[00:50] <WillTablet> Well
[00:50] <WillTablet> It must have been returned to him
[00:50] <WillTablet> Idk why
[00:51] <WillTablet> chrisstubbs: you're an m6 right? You going to do an intermediate at some point?
[00:51] <chrisstubbs> It happens from time to time with china post
[00:51] <chrisstubbs> ive thought about it, but I dont think i would benifit unless the AR airborne stuff kicks off
[00:52] <WillTablet> Ah ok
[00:52] <chrisstubbs> the local club want me to do a HAB talk later this year, so may talk me into it then
[00:52] <WillTablet> Why did you get a license?
[00:52] <chrisstubbs> becuase it was a small price to pay after buying the radio ;)
[00:52] <WillTablet> I got one because it sounded awesome
[00:53] <WillTablet> Why did you buy a radio? Did you intend on getting a license?
[00:53] <chrisstubbs> nope fot the 817 for hab tracking
[00:53] <chrisstubbs> *got
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[00:53] <chrisstubbs> I'm only really interested in the electronics and modes, so I dont need any more power etc
[00:54] <chrisstubbs> jump on our local net now and again becuase the guy that runs it likes the idea of HAB
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[00:58] <WillTablet> chrisstubbs: are there not cheaper RX's?
[00:58] <chrisstubbs> Possibly, but it does work very well
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[00:59] <chrisstubbs> they seem to hold their value pretty well too. I paid £300 for it and I could probably sell it very quickly if i listed it for £250 now
[01:00] <WillTablet> Ah right
[01:00] <WillTablet> I put an ad out in radcom asking for an 857D
[01:01] <WillTablet> I reckon if Im lucky I might get one for £450 ish
[01:04] <gonzo_nb> the 817 is a cracking little radio
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[01:05] <WillTablet> I wanted a bit more than 10 watts though
[01:05] <gonzo_nb> mine does not really get the use it deserves
[01:06] <Lunar_Lander> good night
[01:06] <gonzo_nb> gn
[01:06] <gonzo_nb> 817 is 5w
[01:07] <gonzo_nb> but really makes it's mark for portable ops
[01:08] <gonzo_nb> right, ttfo
[01:08] <gonzo_nb> gn
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[01:17] <chrisstubbs> Laters
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[02:52] <brainles71> morning dale
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[03:22] <brainles71> how do you guys restrain the balloon while filling?
[03:22] <brainles71> do you hold it down with a plastic drop sheet?
[03:24] <brainles71> never mind
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[05:20] <Joel_re> hey
[05:21] <Joel_re> should it be possible to recieve a GPS fix on the ublox 7q module without an antenna?
[05:21] <Joel_re> I dont have an antenna at hand and this module doesnt seem to recieve a fix
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[05:34] <adwiens> Joel_re: you will need an antenna to get a fix
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[05:35] <Joel_re> adwiens: ok, just confirmin
[05:35] <Joel_re> confirming*
[05:35] <Joel_re> since Im sitting in an open area
[05:35] <Joel_re> but no fix
[05:35] <Joel_re> are there any DIY antennas I could build?
[05:36] <Joel_re> on PCB's I dont have access to dual sided PCBs, just single sided
[05:37] <adwiens> maybe this: http://www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/0210036.pdf
[05:37] <adwiens> idk, i just googled and found that, i've never tried building one
[05:38] <adwiens> antennas are tricky things
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[05:44] <Joel_re> ok, thanks for your help adwiens
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[06:10] <adwiens> absolutely, good luck with your project!
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[07:11] <Joel_re> hey, im not seeing any waterfall/signal in dl-fldigi .. what am I missing out
[07:11] <Joel_re> I have gqrx tuned to the frequency
[07:11] <Joel_re> set to USB mode
[07:14] <Reb-SM3ULC> pinput interfce?
[07:15] <Joel_re> ignore, my mistake
[07:16] <Joel_re> 'I had to select pulseaudio for input
[07:16] <Joel_re> fixed now :)
[07:21] <Reb-SM3ULC> :)
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[07:40] <Joel_re> using the audio
[07:40] <Joel_re> whats the best way to measure if the baud rate Im transmittin at using the NTX2 module
[07:40] <Joel_re> is right
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[07:48] <mikestir> look at it in audacity (or similar) and measure the bit period
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[08:47] <sp5nvx> Hi, yesterday my balloon flight had 2 GPS items wrong, where can I see all frames sent/rcv?
[08:50] <sp5nvx> sp5nvx@wp.pl
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[08:58] <Upu> I mailed him
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[09:20] <DL1SGP1> Great Upu, and good morning to all
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[10:48] <steve_2e0vet> in eagle is it possible to set the board size on the screen so i know what i am working to
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[10:49] <Upu> yes
[10:49] <Upu> board size is just the dimension layer
[10:49] <Upu> how big do you want your board to be ?
[10:54] <steve_2e0vet> typically for an ntx2. atmega328 and a sarentel
[10:54] <Upu> well try keep it 50mmx50mm for cheaper PCB
[10:54] <steve_2e0vet> yeah, just got my ruler out
[10:55] <steve_2e0vet> where do you set the dimensions layer or do you just drag it to size
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[10:55] <Upu> ok easiest way is turn off all layers apart from 20 Dimension
[10:55] <Upu> delete whats there
[10:56] <Upu> make the grid 25mm
[10:56] <Upu> draw, in layer 20 width 0 a square round the 0,0 point
[10:56] <Upu> put grid back to what it should be
[10:56] <steve_2e0vet> ok cheers
[10:56] <Upu> square using the line tool not the polygon one
[10:57] <steve_2e0vet> i was using the polygon
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[10:57] <Upu> yeah don't that won't end well :)
[10:57] <WillTablet> Morning
[10:57] <Upu> hi Will
[10:57] <steve_2e0vet> morning
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[11:02] <steve_2e0vet> whats the best colour to have the 20 dimensions, because the components are not very clear on a grey background
[11:03] <Upu> you've done something wrong
[11:03] <Upu> its shouldn't be solid
[11:03] <Upu> did you use the line too ?
[11:03] <Upu> tool ?
[11:06] <Joel_re> hey, Im planning to use the BL5c battery to power my uC in the payload
[11:07] <Joel_re> its a Lithium Ion battery
[11:07] <Joel_re> does that sound fine?
[11:07] <Joel_re> http://www.flipkart.com/nokia-battery-bl-5c/p/itmczczaxy8yxhpy
[11:07] <steve_2e0vet> tnik ive sorted it just changed a few colours round
[11:07] <Joel_re> couldnt find the energizer batteries here
[11:07] <Joel_re> atleast not the ones listed in the UKHAS wiki
[11:08] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: here is 32msec of data http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/gpsdata32msec.bin
[11:09] <LeoBodnar> It has PRNs 2, 12, 23, 25, 29 and 126 in it
[11:09] <mikestir> Joel_re: lithium ion is not recommended. they are not the same chemistry as the energizer lithium and don't have the same low temperature performance
[11:10] <Joel_re> mikestir: ok, are lithium polymer in the same boat?
[11:10] <mikestir> lithium polymer == lithium ion
[11:11] <mikestir> if you can't find energizer lithiums locally you might try to find another brand of lithium iron disulphide
[11:11] <LeoBodnar> it has been sampled at 26 January 2014, 00:22:10
[11:11] <steve_2e0vet> does autorouter work OK
[11:12] <Joel_re> mikestir: ok
[11:12] <Joel_re> trying to find something in this list http://www.flipkart.com/camera-accessories/batteries/pr?sid=jek%2C6l2%2Cw65&q=batteries&otracker=from-multi&srno=po_1&allLinkPos=popular&ref=1e51b91b-de3d-4d39-a39e-f77bdc8467ae
[11:13] <mclane> steve_2e0vet: do not use the autorouter; it cretes over-complex boards
[11:13] <mclane> *creates
[11:14] <Upu> steve_2e0vet send me the eagle file as it is now so I can check you've got the dimension correct
[11:14] <Upu> oh yeah never use autorouter
[11:15] <Joel_re> Energizer Battery Lithium L91BP2 'AA
[11:15] <Joel_re> are the only energizer ones available
[11:16] <Upu> wrong ones
[11:16] <Joel_re> Lithium/Iron Disulfide (Li/FeS)
[11:16] <Upu> although
[11:16] <Joel_re> ^^ thats still wrong?
[11:16] <Upu> they will probably fine
[11:16] <mikestir> that looks like the ones
[11:17] <Joel_re> cool, thanks
[11:17] <Upu> sorry looks like they've repackaged them
[11:17] <Upu> http://datasheet.octopart.com/L91BP-2-Energizer-datasheet-8474345.pdf
[11:18] <Joel_re> thanks, phew
[11:18] <Upu> they do an Advanced Lithium too
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[11:19] <Upu> http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/ea91.PDF
[11:19] <Joel_re> ok
[11:19] <steve_2e0vet> when you set the board to 50mmx50mm are the components to scale
[11:20] <Upu> yes Steve
[11:20] <steve_2e0vet> its very tight and the autorouter wont do anything - oh dear
[11:21] <Upu> chuck autorouter in the bin
[11:21] <steve_2e0vet> anyone know what the smallest track size is for OSHPark
[11:21] <steve_2e0vet> Upulol
[11:21] <Upu> they'll have spec on the their site somewhere
[11:21] <Upu> I think Mitch is 0.15mm
[11:21] <daveake> Most things csn find their way out of a bin, but in this case you'll be safe
[11:22] <steve_2e0vet> i was being lazy lol. i'll take a look, but at the moment i am being dragged out to look for a fridge frezzer
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[11:28] <LeoBodnar> get one that goes down to -55C
[11:31] <mfa298> they're missing out on market there if they don't go to -55 and have a built in vacum pump so you can reduce the internal pressure to ~1% normal.
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[11:39] <fsphil> mfa298: is it still a market if only 5 people buy one? :)
[11:43] <WillTablet> What is so bad about the autorouter?
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[11:52] <eroomde> WillTablet: it has no idea bout emi or anything
[11:52] <eroomde> it wont do an intelligent designed from a signal integrity point of view
[11:54] <nats`> hi everyone
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[11:58] <DaGimp> Pi guy?
[11:58] <eroomde> ?
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[11:59] <DaGimp> Is this for pi ballon and pi quad copter aerial stuff?
[12:01] <eroomde> it's for balloons mostly
[12:01] <eroomde> some people use raspberry pi's as the flight computer
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[12:01] <eroomde> though it's often not the best choice
[12:01] <eroomde> and certainly in the minority
[12:01] <eroomde> there are also some quadcopter flyers here, but it's mostly high altitude stuff here (balloon,s rockets)
[12:03] <DaGimp> Many thanks, sounds pretty interesting. What pi programs add on are most common for altitude reading logging? And good links?
[12:04] <eroomde> most people just write a quick python script
[12:04] <DaGimp> Gps?
[12:04] <eroomde> to talk to a gps over a serial port
[12:05] <eroomde> yes, so you generally have a gps, a microcontroller (sometimes a Pi but it's not the best solution 99% of the time) and a radio
[12:05] <DaGimp> Ok
[12:05] <eroomde> the computer talks to the gps, logs or whatever, then packages up a message to send over the radio
[12:05] <eroomde> then we receive the radio messages on the ground
[12:05] <DaGimp> ok cool i
[12:06] <eroomde> then they get posted on the online map: http://spacenear.us/tracker/
[12:06] <DaGimp> I think I will go spend sometime looking into this, sounds brilliant. Thanks
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[12:06] <eroomde> DaGimp: if you want the pi, then dave akerman's webpage is good
[12:07] <eroomde> there's also the ukhas wiki at ukhas.org.uk
[12:07] <eroomde> that has *everything* on it but can be a bit chaotic to navigate around
[12:07] <eroomde> it's a case of brewing a cup of coffee and spending an hour browsing around
[12:07] <Ericc_> Can I use Canon A2400 is to take photo with CHDK? Will it have overheat problem?
[12:07] <eroomde> Ericc_: the chdk wiki lists the models that work
[12:07] <eroomde> much better to look there than ask here for that info
[12:07] <DaGimp> Eroomde , seriously many thanks!
[12:08] <eroomde> as for overheating, i don't think a camera has overheated yet
[12:08] <Ericc_> Im sure it can work with ChDK
[12:08] <eroomde> DaGimp: no probs
[12:08] <Ericc_> thanks!
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[12:46] <Willdude123> I still cant quite get my head around why my aerial needs no earth
[12:48] <LeoBodnar> Some aerials need no earth
[12:48] <LeoBodnar> For example a human eye
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[12:50] <Willdude123> Wut
[12:52] <g4sgx_iain> Not all need an 'earth', all need some sort of return path.
[12:53] <Willdude123> Right
[12:53] <Willdude123> So a return path. So when you work somewhere exotic, your signal has to come back somehow?
[12:56] <g4sgx_iain> No, thats far field stuff. It needs a return path that is connected to the antenna. In many verticals thats the ground, in a dipole its the other leg. Your antenna current has to come back somehow, the RF given off at far field is a by product.
[12:57] <Willdude123> Ah
[12:57] <Willdude123> I think I understand now
[12:57] <g4sgx_iain> Antennas are a black art in my opinion, they have models which can accurately predict stuff but i still think its magic..!
[13:03] <g4sgx_iain> I was gonna battery life test my board today having finally found the timing error, its on a window-sill but it keeps losing lock now its raining outside. Is the Ublox gonna draw more or less power when searching rather than locked on?
[13:04] <craag> yes
[13:04] <eroomde> more*
[13:04] <craag> But it would give you a worst-case scenario
[13:04] <craag> heh, sorry misread
[13:04] <g4sgx_iain> ok tnx. good point.
[13:04] <craag> yes more
[13:05] <LeoBodnar> it will draw less when tracking then when you feel snug it will wake up and kill your battery :D
[13:05] <DL1SGP1> g4sgx_iain: if it loses fix when it is raining outside, how has it found fix before considering you are in UK? *joke*
[13:05] <LeoBodnar> so test it over 8-12 hours at least
[13:06] <DL1SGP1> and good day everyone :)
[13:06] <LeoBodnar> g'day Felix
[13:07] <g4sgx_iain> Got 2 x AA with a converter to 3.3v. Not sure when the converter will switch off. we shall see.
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[13:57] <g4sgx_iain> I chickened out of the 'no lock' test in case it was too dissapointing! Hung it in tree instead, I know how they like trees.. More realistic scenario!
[14:22] <g4sgx_iain> I wont connect it to the map to avoid confusion but it would be good if there was a 'test' map to show any location or height blips due to bad code..
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[14:35] <cm13g09> craag: ping
[14:36] <cm13g09> (should be a 1ms reply from craag if he's awake and at his PC....)
[14:37] <mfa298> he was around (different channel) ~10 mins ago
[14:37] <cm13g09> mfa298: lol
[14:37] <cm13g09> the reason I say <1ms
[14:38] <cm13g09> is because I'm directly below him :P
[14:38] <mfa298> I was guessing you might be.
[14:38] <cm13g09> lol
[14:38] <mfa298> you need a long pokey stick to bang on the ceiling :)
[14:39] <fsphil> in cw
[14:39] <craag> cm13g09:
[14:39] <mfa298> just don't tell the NSA I said that :p
[14:40] <daveake> .--. .. -. --.
[14:40] <cm13g09> craag: ah, you are awake then :P
[14:40] <cm13g09> -.. .- ...- . .- -.- . ---... .--. --- -. --.
[14:40] <daveake> :)
[14:41] <cm13g09> daveake: another irssi user?
[14:41] <cm13g09> or at least, IRC client with Morse plugin
[14:41] <daveake> nope
[14:41] <daveake> http://morsecode.scphillips.com/jtranslator.html
[14:41] <cm13g09> lol
[14:41] <cm13g09> I have it built into my client
[14:41] <cm13g09> .- .-.. .-.. .. .... .- ...- . - --- -.. --- --..-- .. ... ..- ... . -..-. -- --- .-. ... . !
[14:43] <cm13g09> also mfa298, how is the search for lunch going?
[14:44] <mfa298> lunch has been acheived
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[14:47] <cm13g09> cool
[14:50] Action: fsphil had bacon
[14:50] Action: daveake had cheese on toast
[14:50] <fsphil> mmm
[14:50] Action: mfa298 had soup
[14:51] <mfa298> I think fsphil wins the lunch battle on the basis of Bacon content :)
[14:51] <daveake> I got bacon into the Heston HAB thing
[14:51] <daveake> By wearing a bacon shirt
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[14:58] <daveake> Note the road sign. Shocking. http://imgur.com/gHnRoZA
[14:59] <eroomde> nice
[14:59] <eroomde> don't go that way
[15:00] <daveake> Fortunately the payload had the good sense to land in the opposite direction
[15:01] <fsphil> Banana Depot ... how'd they slip that up there?
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[15:35] <pasky> Hi! I have a question about predict.habhub.org - what codebase it runs on? I looked at https://github.com/jonsowman/cusf-standalone-predictor and its two forks but all seem to contain extra options in the launch card, so it probably won't be these. I'd like to extend it so that the launch card parameters and map position can be passed via URL. (Ideally, that a particular prediction can be directly linked via URL.)
[15:37] <jcoxon> pasky, the precidiction is re-accessible by url
[15:37] <eroomde> that's happening now (it's getting a rewrite) - go and chat on #habhub, which is where most of the it backand stuff gets discussed
[15:37] <pasky> Ah, thanks
[15:38] <jonsowman> copy the url with the uuid in it
[15:38] <pasky> Hmm, but that's just via UUID
[15:38] <jonsowman> indeed
[15:38] <jonsowman> as eroomde says, it'll be better* soon
[15:38] <jonsowman> * TBD
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[15:40] <eroomde> 'soon' is probably also tbd
[15:41] <jonsowman> true
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[15:41] <pasky> My idea is to have an IRC alert on our hackerspace's channel when a weather sonde is predicted to fall down nearby but I think in the end UUID is fine - I'll just make my script query the server backend directly and make a link with the returned prediction UUID
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[15:42] <eroomde> which hackerspace are you in pasky ?
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[15:42] <pasky> brmlab
[15:42] <pasky> .cz
[15:43] <bertrik> I remember seeing a french page doing prediction for weather sondes
[15:43] <eroomde> Q: where will it land?
[15:43] <eroomde> A: boeff
[15:43] <pasky> everyone here uses predict.habhub.org
[15:44] <LeoBodnar> PRN 126 has reasonably stable signal. Pity it's GEO with 25 degrees elevation in UK
[15:45] <eroomde> what's wrong with the gps birds?
[15:46] <LeoBodnar> If I'd be making simple disciplined oscillator that'd be my first choice
[15:46] <LeoBodnar> you have to chase them lol
[15:47] <LeoBodnar> simple yagi, simple PLL and you have a barebones reference oscillator
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[15:50] <LeoBodnar> It can be made almost from 74' logic
[15:54] <gonzo__> the g4jnt gpsdo is 74ttl
[15:55] <gonzo__> it uses the old jupiter 12 gps, that has a 10khz output
[15:55] <gonzo__> and an ocxo, divided down with ttl, and pll'ed to the gps 10khz
[15:56] <gonzo__> I built one ages ago, but moived on to the ZAZ pic bases FLL one
[15:56] <gonzo__> shame R4 droitwich moved from 200kHz.
[16:17] <mikestir> gonzo__: I have a commercial r4 frequency standard that's internally switchable between 200 and 198. I have the schematic somewhere - I assume it uses a 1 kHz reference
[16:21] <kd2eat> Heya... question for those who might have experience with the Si4463 transmitter. I've built two clones of Thomas Krahn's Pecan Pico 4. Both are having the same problem. They're modulating a readable APRS signal, but the signal strength is VERY weak (sub-milliwatt). I've gone over the passives in the low-pass circuit a dozen times. Not spotting an issue. I'd appreciate thoughts on
[16:21] <kd2eat> how I'd proceed with debugging.
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[16:24] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[16:27] <gonzo__> I had a 200khz one years ago. Was going to put some /99 counters in each leg and make a 2khz comparator/pll
[16:28] <gonzo__> but gps was an easier way out
[16:28] <gonzo__> I've got an MSF locker ref somwhere, really meant to do something with
[16:29] <gonzo__> odd 4.something meg output. Assume a frrd for some specific bit of kit
[16:29] <gonzo__> wasn't a nice 2^x value
[16:29] <bertrik> kd2eat: not sure if it helps, but I remember reading about problems with the tx/rx antenna switching on the Hope RF RFM22 modules (which uses some kind of SIxxx transmitter IIRC)
[16:32] <kd2eat> bertrik: Thanks. I'm cloning Thomas's work, and using all the same parts. I suspect I just have something amiss in my assembly, or >something<, but it's being really difficult to spot. I'm about to the point of getting a friend with an electronics lab to go through my inductors and caps with some expensive gear to see if somehow I got them mixed up, or got sent the incorrrect parts.
[16:32] <LeoBodnar> maybe KT5TK put a deliberate mistake in? Sven DL7AD has used his design so he should know it probably
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[16:32] <eroomde> if he has a vna you can do the whole chain at once
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[16:33] <eroomde> and conclusively say if it's letting power through properly
[16:33] <kd2eat> vna? (I'm a relatively new ham and not an EE by any stretch. I'm a code monkey).
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[16:33] <eroomde> vector network analyzer
[16:33] <eroomde> you stick the monkeys in one end, and measure the monkeys coming out the other end
[16:33] <kd2eat> Ahh! Now THAT I can understand!
[16:34] <eroomde> you can measure transmitted power, reflected power, all the useful things
[16:34] <eroomde> they're the dogs bollocks piece of kit for rf, like an oscilloscope is to general electronics
[16:34] <kd2eat> Cool. I don't have much more than an O-scope and meter myself, but a coworker tried looking with a spectrum analyzer. We know it's power is WAY low, but haven't sorted why.
[16:35] <eroomde> well, a vna will quickly tell you if it's your rf chain or if it's the chip, at least
[16:35] <kd2eat> Leo, I wouldn't expect that. He's been very gracious and generous to put up all his work on github in the first place.
[16:36] <kd2eat> eroomde: That would help me a lot. I'll ask around and see if one of the labs around has one (I work at Cornell University).
[16:37] <eroomde> i'm sure they'll have a few knocking around :)
[16:38] <LeoBodnar> maybe the software isn't setup for max power?
[16:39] <eroomde> yeah
[16:39] <kd2eat> Leo, I do want to putter with that. The default setting on the chip is max power. I reviewed the code, and didn't see that property being overridden in the chip. Still, it would be easy to set the property to different values and compare the output. That's one of the two ideas I have.
[16:39] <eroomde> equally if it's weak as in you are strungling to pick it up on the bench next to you, something is definitely ammis
[16:39] <kd2eat> The other is to simply remoove the entire filter string after the chip and hook it right to the antenna, just to see if that's what's attenuating the signal.
[16:40] <eroomde> the filter string also will be doing impedance matching, so you rather need it there
[16:40] <eroomde> i.e. a mismatch will also attenuate
[16:40] <kd2eat> Doh
[16:40] <kd2eat> See. This is why I'm a code monkey and not an RF engineer. :-(
[16:41] <eroomde> heh, wev've all been through this ourselves :)
[16:41] <eroomde> i learnt all this stuff via ballooning
[16:41] <kd2eat> Ya. I've been pounding my head for a month. As frustrating as it's been, I'm having a BLAST. My Wife is feeling a bit like a ham-widow, though. lol
[16:42] <kd2eat> I've learned a ton.
[16:42] <LeoBodnar> where is your schematic kd2eat ?
[16:43] <kd2eat> If you have Eagle, you can look at it here: https://github.com/tkrahn/pecanpico4/blob/master/eagle/PecanPico4.sch
[16:44] <LeoBodnar> I have v5.11
[16:44] <kd2eat> It's set up exactly has shown. I reviewed the Application notes for the Si4463 and the values for the passives SEEM about right.
[16:45] <kd2eat> The application notes give an example for 169mhz. I didn't go through the math for 144mhz.
[16:45] <LeoBodnar> oh, Eagle went with XML nonsense
[16:45] <kd2eat> I could send you a PDF if that's a hassle and you want a peek.
[16:46] <LeoBodnar> can you post it online?
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[16:46] <kd2eat> Oh. Here: http://kt5tk.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/pecanpico4-sch.pdf
[16:47] <Upu> Thats Brads board
[16:47] <Upu> it works he's flown it
[16:47] <LeoBodnar> Do you have RX as well?
[16:47] <kd2eat> I have little doubt. As I say, I'm sure the error here is on MY part. I just don't really know how to sort it out.
[16:48] <kd2eat> I'm not using the RX side.
[16:48] <LeoBodnar> Right, so it is not exact copy?
[16:49] <LeoBodnar> RX part provides calculated load when TXing. Consider RX pins grounded during RX. YOu can't just leave the parts out.
[16:50] <LeoBodnar> Well you can, it's not going to kill output to sub-mW
[16:50] <kd2eat> Oh, I installed the parts. It's just not used by the software. Sorry for the confusion.
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[16:51] <LeoBodnar> And you are using full power
[16:52] <kd2eat> Not sure I understand the question. 3.3v regulators are working. Chip defaults to full output power setting, and does not appear to be overridden.
[16:53] <LeoBodnar> Have you checked L7?
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[16:55] <kd2eat> I've confirmed I have continuity with a meter from the pads on either side. I've confirmed continuity across the string of inductors, between the caps. i've confirmed that the inductors do NOT have continuity with ground.
[16:55] <kd2eat> Everything seems electrically connected, so far as I can detect.
[16:55] <Willdude123> So. Got a new G5RV
[16:55] <Willdude123> Well, not new
[16:55] <LeoBodnar> If you scope pin 4 you should see massive swing on it
[16:55] <Willdude123> Can I just throw it out the window and see how it does?
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[16:57] <kd2eat> I see it sending bursts when it's transmitting. I don't recall the voltage on pin4 offhand.
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[16:57] <kd2eat> Will, I did throw it on the back of an RC airplane and confirm that I can't hear it more than about a mile away. lol
[16:57] <LeoBodnar> Should be like 7V at 3.3V Vdd
[16:58] <kd2eat> That's helpful. Thanks.
[16:58] <kd2eat> I can check that later today.
[16:58] <kd2eat> I've been meaning to check that voltage to see if it seems inline.
[16:58] <kd2eat> Should I disconnect the pin from the output network, or just put a probe on the pin as is?
[16:59] <Willdude123> lol kd2eat
[16:59] <kd2eat> IE: I could remove C5.
[17:00] <LeoBodnar> Don't disconnect matching network, you can kill the output stage. It's class-E so voltage can go very high
[17:00] <Willdude123> I have what it calls S8 of noise
[17:01] <kd2eat> So, hypothetically, if I had a screwed up output network initially, and the chip trannsmitted, is it possible I fried something internally on the chip, such that it transmits very weakly>?
[17:01] <kd2eat> I KNOW I had electrical problems on that network when I first fired up the chip.
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[17:02] <LeoBodnar> In theory this is possible, output on TX pin should not exceed 8V
[17:02] <kd2eat> brb. Wife calling with breakfast
[17:02] <LeoBodnar> but in class-E it can reach as high as 3.6xVdd
[17:02] <LeoBodnar> ok
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[17:03] <LeoBodnar> I have never used anything more than 15mW on these chips so I am just speculating. Thomas used the full monty
[17:04] <LeoBodnar> 100mW or whatever they are capable of
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[17:05] <kd2eat> Yes, should be capable of 20dbm.
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[17:06] <kd2eat> OK. I'll put a scope on the pin. If it's showing very low voltage, I'll consider swapping the chip out. I'm hand pasteing these boards without a stenzel, and let's just say my skills are "improving". ;-p
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[17:08] <kd2eat> I'm pretty sure the output network is assembled correctly now, but I had a lot of problems in the initial testing with cold solder joints due to insufficient paste.
[17:08] <kd2eat> So, that poor chip has been through hell and back.
[17:08] <LeoBodnar> You should see Vdd wen no TX and reasonably distorted 144MHz swinging between 0V and 7V or so
[17:08] <LeoBodnar> They are quite robust, I have never fried one
[17:09] <LeoBodnar> And they were through 4.3V Vdd, etc
[17:09] <kd2eat> OK. That helps a lot.
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[17:10] <kd2eat> I have a 100mhz O-scope, so I can't really tell the frequency on the TX pin, but I can at least see the volts.
[17:11] <LeoBodnar> For high power design (like 100mW) get AN648 from SiLabs it explains some decisions behind matching network
[17:12] <LeoBodnar> 100MHz should still show 144MHz signal
[17:12] <kd2eat> Yes, I have that AN open on my 'puter as we speak. I'm just starting to pour into it.
[17:12] <Lunar_Lander> welcome back DL1SGP
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[17:12] <Lunar_Lander> DL1SGP1,
[17:13] <kd2eat> Yes, it definitely shows the signal, and I should be able to make note of the voltage. I just havne't happened to pay attention to that.
[17:13] <kd2eat> Didn't know what to expect, so I didn't notice.
[17:14] <LeoBodnar> I think appnote has some scope pictures but you won't see the full extent of the voltage peaks
[17:14] <kd2eat> So, to recap, I'm looking for VDD (3.3v) when not transmitting. Spikes up around 7-8 volts when transmitting.
[17:14] <DL1SGP1> heh danke Kevin
[17:14] <LeoBodnar> ON your scope probably more like 5-6V
[17:14] <LeoBodnar> and Vdd when off
[17:14] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
[17:16] <kd2eat> Great.
[17:16] <LeoBodnar> In first approximation Si4463 TX pin is a switch that shorts to the ground for 25% of the output cycle
[17:16] <LeoBodnar> in Class-E mode
[17:16] <kd2eat> I'll confirm that, then. If I see values like that, I'll assume the chip is basically working, and I have problems in my filter.
[17:16] <LeoBodnar> and 50% in square wave mode
[17:18] <kd2eat> I've been very careful, but I suppose there is a possibility I mixed up some passives, leading to this frustration.
[17:19] <kd2eat> I've got two boards behaving about the same way. I've got a third almost constructed. I may try to finish it, just to have the data point regarding output power.
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[17:19] <kd2eat> Anyway, thank you very much for the help. I greatly appreciate it.
[17:20] <LeoBodnar> If you drop the power the output network can be simplified
[17:20] <LeoBodnar> no problem!
[17:20] <LeoBodnar> you are welcome
[17:20] <kd2eat> Good thought on the power.
[17:20] <kd2eat> How low would I have to drop power, and what would be the impact on the network?
[17:21] <kd2eat> Given we're using APRS in the NorthEast US, there are a TON of digipeters around. I don't need people in california to hear this thing on RF!
[17:21] <LeoBodnar> I have flown 15mW APRS and it has been received from 300 miles away
[17:21] <kd2eat> I'd like about 60 miles of range, honestly.
[17:21] <LeoBodnar> and it was only LOS limited, not power limited
[17:21] <kd2eat> Nice.
[17:22] <kd2eat> OK. The datasheet shows the impact of the power setting (0-127) on the output power. It would be easy to crank it down.
[17:22] <kd2eat> So, what can I do on the filters if I do that?
[17:23] <LeoBodnar> Well I did horrible things to it. I actually use 434MHz LPF and 144MHz is just sort of second thought
[17:24] <LeoBodnar> I am using 434MHz as primary transmission mode and switch to 144MHz for APRS
[17:24] <adwiens> LeoBodnar: did you copy the matching circuit in the app note with good results or did you have to tweak the component values and such?
[17:24] <LeoBodnar> so I wouldn't even bother testing it with VNA
[17:25] <LeoBodnar> but it works for hundreds of miles
[17:26] <LeoBodnar> I have just made network up as 434MHz LPF to match 1/4 wave GP
[17:26] <LeoBodnar> I have played with values to match the output to 1/4 wave GP
[17:27] <LeoBodnar> Since then 1/4wave 434MHz has been replaced by 1/2 wave 144MHz dipole without changes to the network
[17:27] <LeoBodnar> I know I'm bad
[17:27] <kd2eat> lol
[17:28] <kd2eat> I suppose when you're talking such low output power, the harmonics would be down in the grass anyway.
[17:28] <LeoBodnar> RF performance is not my priority atm
[17:28] <LeoBodnar> yes
[17:29] <LeoBodnar> that was my excuse
[17:30] <LeoBodnar> for not having commutated matching networks/filters
[17:32] <adwiens> ok, i was also wondering, do you modulate the carrier with a vcxo? and for aprs did you do any kind of carrier detect to see if the channel is open or just transmit?
[17:33] <adwiens> i ask because i'm building a 144mhz aprs tracker with the si chip but i haven't used the chip or done any aprs before
[17:33] <kd2eat> adweins, the board I'm cloning modulates via the vcxo. It doesn't listen first. It just blasts.
[17:33] <LeoBodnar> I control frequency directly via SPI and don't listen when transmitting
[17:34] <LeoBodnar> I haven't used APRS before either so my experience is limited
[17:34] <LeoBodnar> VCXO is so much easier
[17:34] <LeoBodnar> and you get pre-emphasis for free (with just a RC network)
[17:35] <LeoBodnar> let me have a quick look
[17:35] <kd2eat> I can't say I understand the code for creating the modulation in this tracker. Creating sine waves to change the control voltage into the VCXO. A bit of magic.
[17:37] <adwiens> kd2eat: do you know if it uses pwm to generate the sine?
[17:37] <adwiens> what i have so far in eagle is vcxo modulation controlled by rc-filtered pwm
[17:37] <adwiens> planning on having a look-up table for the sine wave
[17:38] <LeoBodnar> Why is Si4463 GPIO1 connected to Audio?
[17:39] <adwiens> i was wondering the same thing :)
[17:39] <LeoBodnar> R5/C18 seem to be a PWM filter
[17:39] <kd2eat> adweins, yes, it's using PWM, and has a hard-coded sine table. It does some kind of jumping aorund the sine waves to change the frequency it's modulating for 0s and 1s. I don't really understand that bit.
[17:39] <LeoBodnar> I think by default all GPIOs are outputs
[17:40] <kd2eat> Leo, I was confused by that too, until I looked at his boards. That section is unconnected.
[17:41] <kd2eat> R21 is absent, leaving that modulation disconnected. I did the same.
[17:41] <LeoBodnar> Ah OK, Thomas probably meant to modulate GPIO1 directly for RTTY mode
[17:41] <LeoBodnar> this is easiest via GPIO pin
[17:42] <kd2eat> Ahh..
[17:42] <LeoBodnar> C19/R7 seem to be pre-emphasis network
[17:42] <kd2eat> Yanno, I'm planning to modify the code at some point. I want to have it do APRS, then switch frequency, and do CW on an alternate frequency, for fox-hunting purposes.
[17:43] <kd2eat> We want to use these for short range balloon flights and do APRS / Fox hunt recovery (in case the GPS stops working at landing).
[17:43] <LeoBodnar> CW is easy as you just hold the output steady and switch TX on and off
[17:43] <adwiens> LeoBodnar: what does the pre-emphasis network do?
[17:44] <kd2eat> Leo, I thought of that, but some friends who foxhunt with doppler griped. They want carrier with no modulation held as part of it. lol
[17:44] <LeoBodnar> It bumps up higher audio frequencies because all FM ham receiver reduce them (de-emphasise)
[17:44] <LeoBodnar> *spelling
[17:45] <LeoBodnar> Ah, FM modulated CW?
[17:46] <LeoBodnar> adwiens: http://www.febo.com/packet/layer-one/transmit.html
[17:46] <kd2eat> Ya. I'd like an audible tone (for those of us hunting with yagis, etc), but also to have it hold carrier for 10-15 seconds afterward for the doppler folks to get a good fix.
[17:47] <kd2eat> .. that, and have the transmitter jump over and do APRS every few minutes as well.
[17:47] <aadamson> kd2eat, I also build a kt5 clone on 144mhz and its working perfectly...
[17:48] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/STM-SIradio.pdf this is the basic design
[17:48] <kd2eat> aadamson: I'm jealous! lol. I've been banging my head on this output power problem.
[17:48] <aadamson> and I've got it working on an STM32F3 processor board that I did
[17:48] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/DSCN2416.JPG
[17:49] <aadamson> *thanks* go go LeoBodnar he helped me originally... LeoBodnar I got everything working, it was a combination of bad code in the original work that I copied :(... and a few other tweaks, but getting the signal over on XIN made the largest difference
[17:49] <aadamson> thanks!
[17:49] <gb73d> nice boards
[17:50] <aadamson> https://github.com/akadamson/STM32F3-SiRadio - not my latest push and still has a bunch of *left* over code, but here is the F3 code with vcp, uart, spi, etc drivers
[17:50] <aadamson> https://github.com/akadamson/STM32F3-SiRadio
[17:50] <LeoBodnar> oooh nice set of boards :)
[17:50] <aadamson> kd2eat, I pulled the RX passives on one board just to see if any difference and none
[17:51] <aadamson> I have 21+db output, about 110mW into a dummy load (my HP 8920A monitor) :)
[17:51] <aadamson> exactly spec
[17:51] <kd2eat> Tell me about the bugs and such. I'm running his setup, stock. Was there anything in that I should know about.
[17:52] <aadamson> btw, I found a small handful of bugs in the pico4 code and actually I ported the latest tracduino over in my F3 efforts. running pwm at 281khz and sample clock at 100khz doing 1200/2200 afsk via vcxo and FM aprs
[17:53] <aadamson> Well, I didn't like the si446x chip setup so I completely re-did it... if you look at my drv_446x.c file, you'll see the changes, I really ported over the original cpp file and c-ized it and then fixed some thing.
[17:53] <aadamson> oh, an LeoBodnar, I'm not official *one in the know* about POKE... si changed their data sheet now to tell you how to do it, and I had reverse engineered it too... can even do a PEEK if wanted :)
[17:54] <LeoBodnar> hehe
[17:55] <LeoBodnar> there is some stuff in those chip
[17:55] <LeoBodnar> s
[17:55] <aadamson> kd2eat, if you want to use Xin, instead of Xout, you can make that change on his 4 boards... I can tell you how to do that...
[17:55] <kd2eat> aadamson, Thanks, I'll look around your stuff. I've got two boards built to stock PP4 standards that are generating VERY WEAK output. I'm struggling to figure out why they're sub-milliwatt.
[17:55] <aadamson> yup...
[17:55] <aadamson> kinda liking this chip actually
[17:56] <kd2eat> What does that change do?
[17:56] <kd2eat> I'm modulating fine. Just very weak output power.
[17:56] <LeoBodnar> it can do some nice stuff
[17:57] <aadamson> xout isn't to spec numbe 1 and xin needs a specific level and ac coupled, and some internal capacitance turned off in the chip, then you are to spec :)
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[17:57] <aadamson> you'll get occasionally funny output by using the xout... been there done that, and LeoBodnar helped me fix it! :)
[17:57] <Lunar_Lander> be back later
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[17:57] <LeoBodnar> IS KT5TK usong XOUT to feed clock in?
[17:57] <aadamson> I'm going to respin my board to get that part right
[17:57] <aadamson> yes
[17:58] <aadamson> I told him how to fix that, but didn't hear anything in response
[17:58] <aadamson> after you and I sorted out my issue
[17:58] <aadamson> which remember was a clone of his design in that area
[17:59] <aadamson> kd2eat, to fix that if you want... pull c14 (looking at my schematic), and put it on c13, then add a second 100pf to c15 and xin will work
[17:59] <aadamson> it's the same design section from kt5's
[18:00] <aadamson> I *did* use the tiny vxco on mine...
[18:00] <adwiens> but AN417 says to leave XIN unconnected?
[18:01] <aadamson> every an note I saw says to use XIN (if using a VXCO which we are)
[18:01] <adwiens> "It is possible to use the Si4x3x family with an external reference source. The suggested connection is shown in
[18:01] <adwiens> Figure 5. The crystal oscillator should be enabled, and C INT should be programmed to its minimum value. X IN (not
[18:01] <adwiens> shown) should be left open."
[18:01] <aadamson> http://www.silabs.com/Support%20Documents/TechnicalDocs/AN785.pdf - this is the reference sheet for the 4463x and external oscilation
[18:02] <aadamson> the older chips may have used something else... I'm using a 4463
[18:02] <adwiens> ooh wow I'm looking at the wrong page
[18:02] <LeoBodnar> AN417 is for Si4x32 series
[18:03] <aadamson> Anyway, you *want* to use XIN wherever possible, but as LeoBodnar knows, you have to *do it correctly*.
[18:03] <LeoBodnar> I think I have used one when I started HABbing half year ago
[18:04] <LeoBodnar> Ah, I have used just a xtal
[18:04] <aadamson> For reference, here is the vcxo that I used - http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/FVXO-HC53BR-27/631-1301-1-ND/2153958
[18:07] <adwiens> oh right you needed two capacitors to divide the voltage because the si parts want 0.6-1.8v on xin and the vcxo is a 3.3v oscillator
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[18:08] <kd2eat> aadamson: Just making sure I understand. Do I have to revise the PP4 board to make this work, or just reverse the caps?
[18:08] <kd2eat> Sounds like I need another cap, which means a change.
[18:09] <aadamson> should just be able to swap one cap and add a second, the pads should be there on the p4 design
[18:10] <aadamson> you'll have to just get the other cap and reference his schematic, but the pads should be on the board for the second cap
[18:10] <kd2eat> kk. 100pf for C15. What value for C13? It's showing a 0pf in the design.
[18:10] <aadamson> same 100pf
[18:10] <kd2eat> kk
[18:10] <aadamson> it's a capacitive divider
[18:10] <kd2eat> So pop C14, add C13 and C15 at 100pf.
[18:10] <kd2eat> No code or other changes?
[18:11] <aadamson> no code changes, I don't know his reference identifiers so you'll have to use my schematic and his, but basically you want to move the series cap from xout to series on xin and add a second to ground on xin, the pads and ciruit are there already
[18:12] <aadamson> Here's the other thing I found... *driving his design with a arduino pro mini*, I had to bump up the sin table by a bunch to get enough deviation... (this could be vcxo differences)... if you have 3.5khz of dev, then leave it alone... his table is an 8% sin table and I had to go to 25%. 100% was 15+ khz of dev :)
[18:13] <aadamson> http://www.meraman.com/htmls/en/sinTableOld.html
[18:13] <aadamson> easiest way to generate a sin table :)
[18:13] <kd2eat> I'm getting readable modulation, so I assume that's OK.
[18:13] <aadamson> ok.
[18:14] <kd2eat> OK, so his IDs (C13, 14, 15) are the same as on your schematic
[18:14] <aadamson> biggest thing will be to compare my si446x driver to his and use my changes... they will be pretty obvious and you only need to reference that file, make the changes, re-build and see what happens
[18:14] <aadamson> I thought so as I copied pasted that section and didn't change the ID's
[18:14] <kd2eat> OK. I'll check that.
[18:14] <kd2eat> Are you the one who posted on his blog about the 0x11 issue, and/or the one byte command bug?
[18:14] <aadamson> *also* make sure you have the power value in config.h set to max
[18:15] <aadamson> yes
[18:15] <aadamson> he was setting his SDO pin to DATA_RX instead of SDO due to a dec to hex translation issue in his code
[18:15] <kd2eat> OK. I saw those, but didn't think either would be impacting my output power issue.
[18:15] <aadamson> the code worked because all it was doing was giving 0xFF's back from the SPI which luckily is the correct CTS response :)
[18:15] <aadamson> from the si chip
[18:16] <kd2eat> hehe
[18:16] <aadamson> there are other changes that I made specifically to the setup of the internal clock/lo/etc
[18:16] <kd2eat> I don't see a power value in config.h
[18:16] <aadamson> hang on let me look, I'm pretty sure it's there
[18:16] <kd2eat> (PP4 code)
[18:17] <kd2eat> In fact, I saw no code that changed the output power setting on the chip. Nothing touched that property that I noticed.
[18:17] <aadamson> well, now I'm going to have to figure that out... hang on
[18:18] Nick change: Willdude123 -> M6KIK
[18:21] <kd2eat> *tap* *tap* Am I still here? Laptop wigged out.
[18:21] <LeoBodnar> several properties can be changed at once (in a batch) so you might necessarily see the one you are interested in
[18:22] <LeoBodnar> *referenced explicitly
[18:22] <LeoBodnar> *not
[18:22] <aadamson> well, well, my bad, I got my power changes from the Rtty code that is also designed around this chip... https://github.com/DL7AD/pecan_rtty/blob/master/PecanRTTY.ino
[18:22] <aadamson> Sorry, you can ignore that comment or make those changes if you want.
[18:23] <kd2eat> The PA_POWER_LEVEL property is 0x2201. I didn't see that touched anywhere.
[18:23] <kd2eat> Phew OK.
[18:23] <eroomde> .inonothing
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[18:24] <eroomde> (manuel/faulty-towers reference rather than being rude about arduino users)
[18:24] <kd2eat> lol
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[18:25] <aadamson> anyway, I'll help where/if I can, mine came right up no issues... I did use all the mouser parts in the matching and LPF that Thomas referenced in his P3 parts list...
[18:25] <aadamson> or was that p4... I can't remember
[18:25] <Laurenceb_> arduinonothing
[18:25] <aadamson> oh just the inductors, the rest I got from digikey
[18:26] <aadamson> https://www.mouser.com/ProjectManager/ProjectDetail.aspx?AccessID=33053ee4fd - this bom I just used the inductors for the RF side..
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[18:27] <aadamson> I've since modeled the circuit in qucs and it's a pretty good one, very low loss and cutoff at 200mhz
[18:27] <eroomde> slow clap for Laurenceb_
[18:27] <eroomde> we could sell microstrip matching+filters for this chip
[18:27] <kd2eat> Yea, I used his BOM other than the parts I couldn't source on Mouser.
[18:27] <eroomde> that would be a fun breakout board
[18:27] <eroomde> an A3-sized pcb with a tiny package in one corner
[18:28] <kd2eat> OK. Well, I have a few things to try. Leo suggested putting a scope on the TX pin to check voltages, which should be between VDD and 7 or 8 volts while transmitting.
[18:28] <kd2eat> I'll review your code changes in the chip driver, just in case.
[18:28] <aadamson> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/qucs-144filtergraph.png
[18:28] <aadamson> is the lpf
[18:29] <LeoBodnar> Swing between 0V and 7V
[18:29] <kd2eat> If I confirm I have two boards doing exactly the same thing, I'll consider swapping the XIN/XOUT passives you suggested and run a test.
[18:29] <kd2eat> (thanks Leo. 0v).
[18:30] <LeoBodnar> HF microstrip
[18:30] <LeoBodnar> cool. solid copper bars
[18:30] <LeoBodnar> M12 brass bolts
[18:31] <Henk1> I thought I heard ofcom were reconsidering allowing transmitting from airborne vehicles, did that happen or did I imagine that?
[18:31] <LeoBodnar> they were considering re-looking at it
[18:33] <LeoBodnar> I want to do a proper big PCB. The largest I did so far is about 30x40cm
[18:33] <eroomde> once they get through the various layers of abstraction from the people with a power to decide (maybe a year or two) then it is up to the people who have the power to decide (and they'll probably take several years)
[18:33] <eroomde> so don;t hold your breath
[18:33] <eroomde> LeoBodnar: what was that for?
[18:33] <LeoBodnar> I want a 50x50cm
[18:33] <eroomde> i biggest i've done was 20x20
[18:33] <fsphil> the office of mis-communications
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[18:34] <eroomde> if i do a PSU i can imagine it might end up being fairly substantial
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[18:34] <LeoBodnar> Some avionics sim package http://emuteq.com/G1000.html
[18:34] <kd2eat> OK. Time to start my day (Being 1:30pm and all). Time to get out of my jammies and clean the litter box. Have a great day, all!
[18:34] <kd2eat> Thanks so much for the help!
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[18:35] <eroomde> jesus christ
[18:35] <eroomde> why don't these people just get the damn pilots license
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[18:36] <LeoBodnar> I think it is just pointless desire to go big that has to be done for the sake of doing it
[18:36] <LeoBodnar> preferably analogue
[18:36] <LeoBodnar> THis is actually for pilot training schools
[18:37] <eroomde> ah right
[18:37] <eroomde> that's ok then
[18:37] <LeoBodnar> 90% of customers
[18:37] <eroomde> just the price of that is getting on for 50% of a PPL
[18:37] <LeoBodnar> The real thing is £20k and a plane with it installed is £200/hr
[18:38] <eroomde> sure but you can go places :)
[18:38] <LeoBodnar> You can fly with steam gauges
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[18:39] <LeoBodnar> I think the only legally required instruments for VFR are the altimeter and compass
[18:39] <LeoBodnar> maybe not even compass
[18:40] <LeoBodnar> I am behind with this
[18:41] <ibanezmatt13> VFR flying is awesome; I've never done IFR
[18:42] <LeoBodnar> YOu shouldn't either
[18:42] <LeoBodnar> that's how you die
[18:43] <ibanezmatt13> mm, I would have thought the latter would be safer. When I fly visually, I'm constantly looking out for other aircraft not seeing me
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[18:47] <LeoBodnar> that's why it is safer
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[18:48] <ibanezmatt13> these wind predictions are looking abysmal for early Feb...
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[18:50] <fsphil> they've been bad all winter
[18:50] <daveake> yup
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[18:51] <ibanezmatt13> let's hope for some miraculous change, quite quickly :P
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[18:55] <chrisstubbs> I dont think I have seen a non wet landing prediction since about october
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[18:56] <chrisstubbs> LeoBodnar, have you done any experiments with the orientation of chip antennas?
[18:59] <LeoBodnar> not really, I am now trying to make a barebones GPS frontend working and 1/4 wave stick wins over chip hands down
[19:00] <LeoBodnar> Is chip antenna just a folded dipole internally? It looks like a spiral embedded into ceramic package
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[19:05] <eroomde> they're not necessarily a dipole
[19:05] <eroomde> but they are some sort of antenna
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[19:05] <eroomde> made small by being in a substrate with a really high Er, usually cermic
[19:06] <eroomde> and they're usually crap, but resonant at least, so they're much less crap at one specific freq than others :)
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[19:17] <steve_2e0vet> what does a yellow cross on a board in eagle mean?
[19:18] <eroomde> is it still there if you hit ratsnest?
[19:18] <steve_2e0vet> yes
[19:19] <steve_2e0vet> there are no errors when DRC is run
[19:19] <LeoBodnar> it often means vertical airwire
[19:19] <eroomde> it is a zero-length airwire
[19:19] <eroomde> that ^
[19:20] <eroomde> you can usually get them if you jump between payers ina way eagle doesn't like
[19:20] <steve_2e0vet> it is on a different layer?
[19:20] <eroomde> try ripping up the bit of track in and around it
[19:20] <eroomde> then redrawing
[19:20] <steve_2e0vet> cheers
[19:25] <steve_2e0vet> it seems to be whe I am joining a top track to one on the bottom, do I need a via for that?
[19:25] <ibanezmatt13> yes
[19:26] <eroomde> yes
[19:26] <eroomde> it puts them in automatically if you middle-click
[19:26] <ibanezmatt13> I didn't know that, quite handy
[19:27] <eroomde> so you route on the top layer, middle click, and it automatically switches to the bottom layer and puts in a via
[19:28] <steve_2e0vet> i'll try that thanks
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[19:33] <LeoBodnar> eroomde have used SBAS satellites?
[19:34] <eroomde> nope
[19:34] <eroomde> next thing for me is L2C freqs
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[19:36] <LeoBodnar> Oh, what is the B/W requirement for them few dozens of MHz?
[19:37] <eroomde> nope about the same
[19:37] <eroomde> but it's at 1.2GHz
[19:38] <eroomde> no off the shelf rf front end to help
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[19:39] <LeoBodnar> Scale down the reference freq
[19:41] <LeoBodnar> by 120/154
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[19:41] <LeoBodnar> Isn't P(Y) chipping rate x10 the C/A?
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[19:45] <eroomde> sorry was away
[19:45] <eroomde> yes you're right
[19:45] <chrisstubbs> LeoBodnar, ah cool :) I just ask as it would save a bit of space and get me into the sweet 50x50mm mark for hackvana
[19:45] <eroomde> ]but i'm sampling at 10s of Mhz anyway
[19:45] <chrisstubbs> (late reply)
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[19:46] <chrisstubbs> Might try my next boards like this as a bit of an experiment: http://i.imgur.com/J6K1iws.png
[19:46] <eroomde> i think it's about twice the bw
[19:46] <pasky> BTW, wrt. the IRC announcement of weather sondes falling nearby, the final script for that is
[19:46] <pasky> http://jenda.hrach.eu/gitweb/?p=jendabot;a=blob;f=sonde.sh;h=2e4201be2f430b56e04dbb68ecf321814ae32b35;hb=HEAD
[19:47] <eroomde> infact no
[19:47] <eroomde> there are two separate ones each slower
[19:47] <eroomde> but the multiplexed signal is faster when both are taken into account iirc
[19:48] <eroomde> gtg - cinema
[19:48] <M6KIK> Are there limits to how you can order a PCB, like could you get a 30cm long rectangular one?
[19:48] <M6KIK> Have fun eroomde
[19:48] <chrisstubbs> yeah you can M6KIK
[19:48] <chrisstubbs> think motherboards
[19:48] <LeoBodnar> If VCO range on existing frontends are reasonably wide you can try scaling down the reference clock
[19:48] <M6KIK> Cool
[19:49] <LeoBodnar> *is
[19:49] <mattbrejza> there are a few 'standard' sizes that are cheaper with the commonly used manuafacters
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[19:49] <LeoBodnar> ok
[19:49] <chrisstubbs> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=2407 gives you a good idea of the scale of things
[19:50] <chrisstubbs> im sure there are bigger factories too
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[19:51] <M6KIK> Interesting-on 1.9 mhz I have what my radio calls s9 of noise
[19:51] <mattbrejza> nice to see the baords being held done securely for drilling (masking tape...)
[19:51] <M6KIK> Mind you, that is on a g5rv that's not been put up
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[19:53] <mfa298> if the antenna isn't in a good location (i.e. just on the ground) it's quite possible that most of what it will pick up is local noise/
[19:55] <M6KIK> Yeah
[19:55] <M6KIK> Got a good SWR on all bands
[19:56] <M6KIK> And I like the clicky sound the tuner makes
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[19:58] <mfa298> it will tune differently when its up (although the G5RV should match on most bands fairly easily)
[19:58] <fsphil> I have my tuner in the shed, I can't hear it anymore :(
[19:58] <fsphil> it's a reassuring sound
[20:00] <M6KIK> I read in a manual something like "Remember the microphone is active when tuning, so remember anything you say may be heard"
[20:00] <M6KIK> Like oh crap why isn't this thing working
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[20:04] <mfa298> the two big caps in my tuner don't make any clicking noises. Clicking would be a bad sign as that would suggest something is arcing!
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[20:05] <M6KIK> Erm
[20:06] <mfa298> as for the good SWR on all bands. That's not always a good indication of it working.
[20:06] <M6KIK> It should shouldn't it?
[20:06] <mfa298> I can get a good SWR on all bands without an ATU...
[20:06] <M6KIK> I thought atus sounded olike that
[20:06] <mfa298> ... When I use my Dummy Load.
[20:07] <mfa298> Auto ATU's will have relay clicks as they switch things in and out. I mostly use a Manual ATU (so it doesn't click)
[20:07] <LazyLeopard> Auto ATUs click like mad if they're full of relays ;)
[20:09] <LazyLeopard> A cool auto-atu would use servo-operated roller-coaster coils and variable caps, but I don't think I've ever seen a commercial product that works that way... ;)
[20:12] <mfa298> for a processor based system switching things in and out could lead to a better system (make bigger jumps to get close to the right value, then smaller jumps to get the best possible value)
[20:12] <mfa298> along the lines of divide and conquer
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[20:12] <DL1SGP1> Yeah using an ATU or manual Tuner is more a way to protect your transceiver but does not make your antenna better, but if you are using the G5RV on the ground right now do not worry about the SWR oddities, it will be much better once properly installed in air M6KIK
[20:13] <M6KIK> Right
[20:13] <mfa298> Manual ATU is much more fun, especially as it's possible to get close to being matched without having to transmit anything (I can usually get to at least 3:1 with rx only)
[20:14] <DL1SGP1> you use that for heating your coffee mug then, mfa298?
[20:14] <steve_2e0vet> getting really frustrated with eagle. this is a yellow cross that i cannot get rid of. it always happens on the bottom layer http://imgur.com/KQKVBp0
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[20:14] <M6KIK> Damn. I learned about a certain type of gene diagram in science
[20:14] <M6KIK> I forgot it
[20:15] <Lunar_Lander> hi mclane and wb DL1SGP1
[20:16] <mclane> hello steve_2e0vet there is no connection to R5 you need a via
[20:17] <steve_2e0vet> can you put via's on top of resistors or do they need to got at the side
[20:18] <mclane> no, they need to be at the side
[20:19] <steve_2e0vet> thanks is the via the same icon (green circle) that i use to join two vias on the schematic
[20:20] <mclane> no, it looks like the hole for your connector at the bottom
[20:21] <mikestir> steve_2e0vet: middle click to switch layers while routing - it will insert the via automatically
[20:21] <steve_2e0vet> got it thanks
[20:23] <mikestir> fsphil: that buzzing on hf I was moaning about. It stopped abruptly at breakfast time just after dawn - I wonder if it's a streetlight?
[20:23] <fsphil> ooooh
[20:23] <fsphil> that would make sense
[20:23] <mikestir> I'll have to go for a wander - it wipes out 80m and 40m
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[20:24] <fsphil> has it come back?
[20:24] <mikestir> yes
[20:26] <mikestir> I can't hear a thing anywhere on HF - not even shannon volmet
[20:26] <mikestir> strong broadcast stations are getting through but that's it
[20:26] <fsphil> I can hear that but the noise makes it difficult to listen to
[20:27] <mikestir> so unusable in the evenings due to noise on the bands, and unusable during the day due to screaming kids
[20:27] <LeoBodnar> I wonder if complaining to OFCOM would help?
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[20:27] <mikestir> I'll spend some time trying to track down the source first
[20:28] <LeoBodnar> THey do investigate these things
[20:28] <mikestir> if it's the council then that will probably be the best option, since they are unlikely to care
[20:28] <fsphil> actually that's not a bad idea
[20:28] <fsphil> though it would be a bit crap if it did turn out to be something in the house
[20:29] <mikestir> I remember seeing something on hackaday about a guy that was bothered by light pollution from a streetlight - he turned it off using a laser
[20:30] <fsphil> lasers solve everything
[20:31] <mikestir> I also get enough signal from a nearby AM station that I can hear it by putting my ear to the coax :)
[20:32] <LeoBodnar> lol fsphil I might try that
[20:33] <LeoBodnar> IR should work perhaps
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[20:40] <iain_g4sgx> Tracker's still going strong after 7 hrs on 2xAA. Only blip is for 3 consecutive strings so far when altitude went sky high but I think that may be a negative altitude read as the rest of the string was received ok. I havent programmed for -ve altitude.
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[20:41] <fsphil> remember to check your datatypes can hold the values you expect
[20:42] <fsphil> there've been a few flights that went sub-terrain after 32.768km :)
[20:42] <daveake> Ah yes the number10 one :)
[20:42] <iain_g4sgx> no data types, done in assembler. enough bits im sure but only testing will tell.
[20:43] <fsphil> ooh hard core
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[20:44] <iain_g4sgx> Damn thing had me confused last few days, timing error. Eventually noticed the watchdog config bits had been set when i changed the oscillator source. doh.
[20:44] <iain_g4sgx> messed up all the interupts
[20:45] <fsphil> PIC: some assembly required
[20:46] <fsphil> I'd like to try arm assembly some time. Can't be any more painful than getting gcc working
[20:47] <LeoBodnar> thumb or manly one fsphil ?
[20:48] <LeoBodnar> Cortexes have only thumb left I think
[20:48] <fsphil> I thought thumb was an optional thing
[20:48] <iain_g4sgx> Have a feeling 4294932 may be 2's complement of a small -ve number, will have to check later, forget how many bits im using.
[20:50] <LeoBodnar> doesn't look like it, log2(4294932) = 22
[20:51] <LeoBodnar> I think one of the Cortex decisions was to get rid of proper mode
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[20:51] <iain_g4sgx> Hmm maybe not. will persue later, seems strange the rest of the string is correct and synched and it was for 3 consecutive strings. Only ones in nearly 2000 strings rets is correct
[20:53] <iain_g4sgx> I'm at altitude of 40M, easy to go negative with any error but then im not even sure if ublox supports -ve altitude as a 2's complement like the long/lat, seems superfluous.
[20:54] <craag> iain_g4sgx: Does look to have been caused by negative, the altitudes on either side of those 2 points are 9m and 11m
[20:54] <fsphil> the ubx type for altitude is int32_t
[20:54] <LeoBodnar> On first few flights I had embarrassing mistake where one of the bits in lat/lon number caused it to be replaced by zero.
[20:55] <LeoBodnar> So it was 25% chance of getting a position.
[20:56] <LeoBodnar> Murphy had it that both office and home locations had correct positions
[20:56] <kd2eat> Leo, I just got to my office and put my board on the O-scope. TX pin seems to generate about 150mv when it's transmitting :-(
[20:56] <LeoBodnar> Launch site didn't
[20:56] <LeoBodnar> oh, what's DC level when not TXing
[20:57] <kd2eat> DOwn around 0.
[20:57] <kd2eat> I see a little wobbling and wiggling on the scope, but the voltage is basically unperceptible.
[20:57] <LeoBodnar> so go to the launch site, no position, scratch head, return to office. All works. Blast. Go to launch. Nothing works. Hmm. Back to office. All works. Repeat
[20:58] <LeoBodnar> Check the choke to Vdd. It might be a cap
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[21:00] <LeoBodnar> kd2eat: L7 on the diagram
[21:02] <iain_g4sgx> craag: thanks for checking the data, I'll assume thats what it is for now as it seems very stable the rest of the time. Just need to get it up in the air now. No txco as yet but I thought i'd see how stable it is on flying first
[21:04] <craag> iain_g4sgx: Great, I look forward to hearing it in flight! What uc are you using?
[21:05] <iain_g4sgx> I have absolutly no idea the batteries are gonna last, id calculated 6.6hrs @ 150mA but its exceeded that already Using a PIC 16F87J94 @ 8Mhz
[21:06] <craag> Doing a couple of battery runs to get a decent idea of the life can be v useful on the day.
[21:07] <kd2eat> SHowing VCC (3.3v) on both ends of the choke.
[21:10] <LeoBodnar> And 0V on the pin 4?
[21:14] <kd2eat> About 14mv.
[21:15] <kd2eat> Having a little trouble with the O-scope. sigh. The grad student who loaned it to me isn't around to explain what I'm doing wrong, either. grr. lol
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[21:15] <kd2eat> My multimeter shows 14mv on pin 4. 3.3 on the choke. I see a spike on transmit, but my multimeter doesn't catch it before the APRS packet finishes.
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[21:16] <kd2eat> When I track down the guy who knows how to use this O-scope, I'll get a better reading.
[21:17] <number10> ah my altidude problem - 32768 I remember it well daveake - at least not a postion problem ;)
[21:17] <number10> that makes it harder to recover
[21:18] <daveake> true :)
[21:19] <LeoBodnar> but the choke L7 is connected to pin 4
[21:19] <number10> :)
[21:19] <LeoBodnar> *supposed to be
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[21:23] <kd2eat> Doh. I'm a doofus. It's hard to get on the pin, it's so small. I was measuring at C5, but on the wrong end. On the Pin 4 side of C5, it's showing 3.3v. Sorry.
[21:23] <kd2eat> On the OTHER end of C5, it shows 14mv.
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[21:25] <LeoBodnar> so can you see the waveform on the pin4 side of C5 or L7?
[21:25] <kd2eat> Let me check again. The scope is befuddling me, but I was seeing waveform happening on the OTHER end of C5. Let me make sure. sec.
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[21:34] <kd2eat> OK. I'm a noob with the scope. It was set to AC coupling. Set it to DC, and I can see voltages now. Phew.
[21:34] <kd2eat> However, with DC coupling, I'm not really seeing the waveform do anything different during transmission on the pin4 side of C5.
[21:36] <LeoBodnar> Hmm so the chip is not pulling it to GND during transmission?
[21:36] <kd2eat> It's showing 3.3v and not really wobbling much. I have it set down to 500ns, so I should see SOMETHING.
[21:36] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[21:37] <kd2eat> Yea, apparently not.
[21:37] <kd2eat> It's just at 3.3v and staying there.
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[21:43] <LeoBodnar> can't think of much else. maybe it is a configuration setting? like minimum power
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[21:43] <kd2eat> OK, thanks for the brainstorming. :-) Yea, I'll putter with that power setting.
[21:43] <kd2eat> Easy enough to send a command down to change it and observe the behavior.
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[21:46] <kd2eat> Leo, thank you very much for your help. I'm gonna take a break from this for now. Got some "day job" stuff to do.
[21:46] <kd2eat> I'll letcha know when I finally figure this out. heh
[21:46] <LeoBodnar> ok cool
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[21:50] <mikestir> fsphil: seems to be streetlights - all of them
[21:50] <mikestir> which is bad
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[21:51] <fsphil> wonder what woulc cause that
[21:51] <fsphil> there must be a fault
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[21:52] <mikestir> I don't know. I went out in the car and drove the length of the road. The buzzing is really bad at one end, but audible along the whole length of the road
[21:52] <mikestir> nowhere else
[21:52] <mikestir> peaks when passing most lights, but not all
[21:52] <mikestir> could be one bad one re-radiating from the others on the same phase maybe
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[21:53] <mikestir> they are high pressure sodium - fairly new
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[21:57] <fsphil> ah the orange ones?
[21:57] <mikestir> the brighter orange as opposed to the very orange low pressure sodium ones
[21:57] <fsphil> actually low pressure sodium ones might be orange too
[21:58] <fsphil> there is a faulty one outside my house, keeps switching off every few minutes
[21:58] <fsphil> no extra RF noise from that thankfully
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[21:58] <mikestir> I will need to monitor while looking at the lights
[21:58] <mikestir> maybe set up a camera to do it
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[22:00] <Lunar_Lander> good night
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[22:43] <SpeedEvil> Also - most lighting related faults should be strongly modulated with 100hz
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/
[22:44] <SpeedEvil> Or 100.102hz
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[22:45] <mikestir> there's strong 50Hz on it
[22:45] <mikestir> harmonically rich
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> Of course - much interference will be not lights, and still...
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> This is at 433?
[22:46] <mikestir> no, all over hf
[22:46] <SpeedEvil> ah
[22:47] <SpeedEvil> I suppose in principle, you could complain to OFCOM.
[22:48] <mikestir> I will once I've gathered a bit more evidence of its origin
[22:48] <mikestir> the noise floor on 3.6 MHz is S9+60
[22:48] <fsphil> pretty much S8 here most of the time
[22:49] <mikestir> well I have 66dB on you :)
[22:49] <fsphil> during the day my inverter puts out some noise too
[22:49] <mikestir> yeah I remember you said
[22:49] <fsphil> discovered that when the noise varied by how sunny it was
[22:50] <mikestir> I'm slightly puzzled by the peaking at 1.8/3.6/7.2 MHz
[22:50] <fsphil> the other noise sounds simliar to what you're hearing
[22:50] <mikestir> MHz components suggests an SMPSU of some kind
[22:50] <mikestir> I did notice that the road sign lighting at the end of the road where the noise is worst appears to be LED
[22:51] <fsphil> urg
[22:51] <mikestir> but that's several hundred yards away
[22:52] <fsphil> I've been looking for good led lighting for my desk, never even considered that it might put out RF
[22:52] <mikestir> I have 7 off 4.5W (>50W halogen equivalent) LED GU10s in the kitchen - they don't emit anything I've noticed (other than light)
[22:52] <fsphil> there is a halfords nearby, it might even be coming from that
[22:54] <fsphil> might do what you did, take a drive around
[22:54] <fsphil> one weird thing about the local noise here is it sounds worse on AM
[22:54] <fsphil> it's a buzzing noise, but on ssb it's just noise
[22:54] <mikestir> same here - apparently that's normal for impulse noise
[22:56] <mikestir> http://www.mike-stirling.com/files/emi_3600khz_am.wav
[22:57] <fsphil> oh nasty
[22:57] <mikestir> indeed
[22:57] <fsphil> yea that's much worse than here
[22:59] <mikestir> I just drove around with the scanner and the 2/70 whip on the car
[22:59] <mikestir> seemed to prove the point well enough
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[23:03] <fsphil> just checked here, S9 but more of a buzz
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[23:04] <SpeedEvil> mikestir: Stupid point.
[23:04] <SpeedEvil> mikestir: It's not an inverter you're using to power the radio in your car?
[23:04] <mikestir> no it was on batteries
[23:05] <mikestir> and that recording is from the radio in the house
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ommzKEdKXVA#t=61
[23:05] <SpeedEvil> :) (unrelated)
[23:06] <fsphil> I know mine isn't the streetlights anyway
[23:06] <fsphil> it's always there
[23:06] <SpeedEvil> An actual proper RFI map would be cool.
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> Fly a quad in a 10m grid.
[23:07] <fsphil> hah
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> Measuring from the ground is _hard_
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> For extra points - synthetic apature.
[23:07] <fsphil> that would be a lot of points
[23:07] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[23:23] <gonzo__> not read the full chatter, but qrm changing with the sun... solar pv system?
[23:24] <mikestir> yeah that's one of fsphil's sources
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[23:24] <gonzo__> beed chasing rfi this eve ar the radio club. Managed to get access to another building on site where qrm was coming from. Turned out to be a shitty chinese wall wart
[23:25] <mikestir> I've had one of those
[23:25] <mikestir> I killed it with fire
[23:25] <gonzo__> not the cause of our problems, but mabing ennough noise to be a spoiler in our attempt to find the real cliprit
[23:25] <gonzo__> we have permission to replace it
[23:27] <fsphil> pretty sure it's a faulty/crappy psu here too
[23:28] <fsphil> houses should have filters on their mains :)
[23:29] <gonzo__> make them all faraday cages with filters all lines in and out
[23:31] <fsphil> that will be one of the first laws when I'm made Lord and Master of All
[23:31] <fsphil> any day now
[23:33] <mikestir> after banning power line carrier?
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[23:35] <fsphil> users of that will be forced to use dialup
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[23:57] Action: SpeedEvil sighs.
[23:58] <SpeedEvil> A nice thermal imager would be so handy at times.
[23:58] <SpeedEvil> It could answer in a couple of seconds 'is removing the case from this PSU, and leaving off the fan sane' type issues.
[00:00] --- Mon Jan 27 2014