highaltitude.log.20140125

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[00:17] <eroomde> Laurenceb_: yes?
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[00:22] <WillTablet> Is it weird that I just got about 15 minutes of entertainment studying the static electricity on a polyester fleece?
[00:22] Nick change: Adran -> Adran2
[00:23] Nick change: Adran2 -> Adran
[00:23] <Laurenceb_> rockoon
[00:24] <Laurenceb_> in b4 eroomde rage
[00:26] <Lunar_Lander> WillTablet, just like Ben Franklin?
[00:26] <WillTablet> I guess so, yes
[00:27] <WillTablet> I was thinking about the triboelectric series though at the time
[00:27] <WillTablet> And inadvertently proved it to myself
[00:30] <Lunar_Lander> cool!
[00:31] <WillTablet> I actually got something done today
[00:31] <WillTablet> Both that and I did my homework
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[01:28] <SpeedEvil> Willdude123: applied physics is fun!
[01:29] <WillTablet> Sure is
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[03:52] <Brainles71> Hello!
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[03:53] <WillTablet> Hi Brainles71
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[03:55] <brainles71> How are you?
[03:55] <brainles71> I'm trying to learn all i can about HAB
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[04:22] <brainles71> whats the range for an APRS transmitter by line of site?
[04:30] <mfa298> brainles71: you'll probably find more people around in a few hours most people here are uk/europe and are (or should be asleep)
[04:31] <brainles71> Yeah I'm used to that. I'm Based in Australia and use reddit a lot. Poor Australia
[04:31] <brainles71> thanks mfa
[04:31] <mfa298> in terms of UK experience with 70cms modules running at 10mW it's prettiy much limited by line of sight - so when the balloon it up in the air it's possible to get pretty good ranges.
[04:32] <mfa298> with aprs you might need a bit more power as it's audio over FM (we're doing FSK so just moving the carrier around)
[04:32] <mfa298> you've also got to potentially compete with higher power stations on the ground.
[04:34] <mfa298> There's a few Australian people around at times although I'm not sure how much they use APRS or if they mostly use the UKHAS rtty/dominoEX system.
[04:34] <brainles71> hmmm
[04:35] <brainles71> i need to do more research
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[04:36] <mfa298> there's a good bit of info on ukhas.org.uk although most of that is based around 70cms ISM modules (we can't use amateur radio in the UK due to license restrictions so aprs doesn't make much sense for us)
[04:36] <Darkside> brainles71: where in australia
[04:37] <Darkside> NSW somewhere i guss
[04:37] <brainles71> I'm based in sydney
[04:37] <Darkside> right
[04:37] <Darkside> i'm part of projct horus
[04:37] <Darkside> in adelaide
[04:37] <brainles71> ill probably be launching out in parkes
[04:37] <brainles71> WOW
[04:37] <Darkside> APRS @ 100-300mW is effectivly line of sight
[04:37] <mfa298> In Australis a combination of rtty and aprs could be good (aprs gives you a wider network, rtty gives you constant updates and the option for ssdv)
[04:37] <Darkside> mfa298: +1
[04:37] <brainles71> i tried to get into contact with you guys about a year ago and had no luck
[04:37] <Darkside> hah
[04:38] <Darkside> yeah terry is extremely busy
[04:38] <brainles71> i figured
[04:38] <Darkside> and the projct has kind of stalled
[04:38] <Darkside> since we're all doing othr stuff now
[04:38] <brainles71> hey you did it once
[04:38] <brainles71> thats more than most people
[04:38] <Darkside> we did it more than once
[04:38] <Darkside> lol
[04:38] <Darkside> i still do the occasional launch
[04:38] <brainles71> i know you did it more than once
[04:39] <Darkside> anyways, do you have a ham license?
[04:39] <brainles71> working on it
[04:39] <Darkside> cool
[04:39] <Darkside> you'll need standard or advancd
[04:39] <brainles71> i have only just figured out all the casa 101 stuff
[04:39] <Darkside> yeah its a bit annoying
[04:39] <Darkside> they are quit flxibl though
[04:39] <Darkside> best thing to do is tell them what you plan on doing
[04:40] <Darkside> as HAB stuff dosnt quite fit into any of the categories they list
[04:40] <brainles71> yeah that was my main thing
[04:40] <brainles71> i did find that
[04:40] <brainles71> i called them to get more info and just got bounced between people
[04:40] <Darkside> we fit kind of around the medium category
[04:40] <Darkside> but not quite
[04:41] <Darkside> yeah
[04:41] <Darkside> they still dont quite understand what it is we do
[04:41] <Darkside> you may wish to speak to robert brand
[04:41] <Darkside> he does launches around there
[04:44] <brainles71> how did you guys get around 101.230 Direction by ATC to end flight in certain circumstances
[04:45] <Darkside> err
[04:45] <Darkside> what section is that under
[04:45] <Darkside> medium?
[04:45] <brainles71> yeah
[04:45] <Darkside> we'r ekind of not in the medium class >_>
[04:45] <brainles71> haha fair enough
[04:45] <Darkside> its more like somewhere between light and medium
[04:46] <Darkside> also we have had cutdown capability since horus 23
[04:46] <brainles71> brb
[04:47] <Darkside> http://vimeo.com/46031355
[04:48] <Darkside> man
[04:48] <Darkside> that was a while ago
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[04:50] <brainles71_> i have looked at timed cutdown methods which allow you to terminate the flight in the event the balloon doesn't burst
[04:50] <Darkside> mm
[04:50] <Darkside> i dont like automated cutdown
[04:50] <brainles71_> do you have a remote cutdown?
[04:50] <Darkside> yes
[04:50] <Darkside> http://vimeo.com/46031355
[04:50] <Darkside> video about it
[04:50] <brainles71_> HELL YES
[04:51] <Darkside> >_>
[04:51] <Darkside> getting a bit excited >_>
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[04:51] <brainles71> yeah man!
[04:51] <Darkside> we do like our videos
[04:52] <Darkside> sometime after this video i made the 'big red button'
[04:52] <brainles71> i didn't know you did videos
[04:52] <Darkside> which is basically an uplink board + 5W amp in box
[04:52] <Darkside> with a gigantic red button on it
[04:52] <brainles71> my trouble is that I'm only very new to radio
[04:52] <brainles71> awesome
[04:52] <Darkside> yeah its not somethign you want to b doing for your first payload
[04:53] <Darkside> it took us a few years to get to the point of having a working up;ink
[04:53] <Darkside> the best thing to do for your first launches is overfill your balloon
[04:54] <Darkside> that makes sure it will burst
[04:54] <Darkside> unless you are doing something risky, like going for an altitude record, a floating balloon is unlikly
[04:56] <brainles71> I also don't want it to bust for maximum altitude
[04:56] <Darkside> well just do the calcs properly
[04:56] <Darkside> if you know all your payload weights and balloon specs, you shouldnt have a problem
[04:56] <brainles71> my whole reason of the project is to get photos of the curvature of the earth
[04:57] <Darkside> what camra are you planning on using
[04:58] <Darkside> ok i've got to head off, ill be back on a bit later
[04:58] <brainles71> go pro + a canon point and shoot with CHDK
[04:58] <brainles71> no worries
[04:58] <Darkside> cool
[04:58] <Darkside> thats what w usd
[04:58] <Darkside> ok gtg
[04:58] <brainles71> bye
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[05:22] <brainles71> Howdy
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[07:46] <brainles71> How many launches has everyone done?
[07:49] <arko> over 9000
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[08:11] <Reb-SM3ULC> morrn
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[08:50] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: I have remembered where I have seen BNC GPS antenna connectors. In my car lol. Garmin aviation/marine range of GPSes 10-20 years ago used BNC.
[08:51] <Darkside> the one on my trimble thunderbold is a F connector
[08:51] <Darkside> thunderbolt*
[08:51] <LeoBodnar> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Garmin-GPSMAP-196-Aviation-GPS-Receiver-Used-with-antenna-no-other-Accessories-/170921829223
[08:51] <Darkside> it came with 50m of RG6...
[08:52] <LeoBodnar> And Garmin sold external antennas for them: http://www.banyanpilotshop.net/garmin-portable-aviation.asp?Category=garmin_antennas
[08:53] <DL1SGP> Good Morning dear HAB-Friends :) and a fantastic weekend to all of you
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[08:54] <LeoBodnar> Morning *
[08:54] <Upu> morning
[08:55] <Upu> I have some timing antennas on the shop with SMA's on
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[08:55] <Upu> http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=59_65&product_id=97
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[08:59] <LeoBodnar> there was a discussion yesterday if BNC is suitable for GHz range
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[09:00] <Darkside> with an active antenna at the other end, you're probably fine
[09:04] <Upu> http://www.edaboard.com/thread66554.html
[09:04] <Upu> bottom post
[09:04] <eroomde> i'd say yep for gps
[09:04] <eroomde> but that's only just ghz range
[09:04] <Upu> but I suspect its more of the usual radio bull and will probably work
[09:04] <eroomde> wouldn't use them will into microwave stff though
[09:04] <Upu> how about BNC will be fine but SMA will probably be better
[09:05] <Upu> for different values of better
[09:05] <eroomde> quality of the crimp will make a big difference
[09:05] <eroomde> so old nadgered bnc with a rather loose female side (forgive the phrasing) will not be good news
[09:06] <eroomde> but a well-made and newish one should be fine
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[09:08] <eroomde> i use huber+schuner for rf stuff, because they make good connectors, and just looked at their BNCs - they're rated to 4GHz
[09:08] <LeoBodnar> I'd say for GPS range BNC on RX is fine TX is not wise
[09:08] <eroomde> but their tolerances are better than most
[09:09] <LeoBodnar> VNA care about phase and amplitude response and SWR over wide range, we are concerned about narrowband RX
[09:10] <LeoBodnar> so I agree on VNA connection/cabling importance
[09:11] <S_Mark> Morning, where is the 'new article' button on the wiki? Is it a permissions thing as I cant see it
[09:13] <Upu> whats your username ?
[09:13] <S_Mark> stratodean I think
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[09:15] <Upu> you have permissions to post
[09:15] <Upu> to create a new article you just make a page that doesn't exisst
[09:15] <Upu> i.e http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:blah
[09:16] <S_Mark> ha
[09:16] <S_Mark> ok thank you
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[09:18] <eroomde> idea for 2014:
[09:19] <eroomde> take the people who debate on audiophile forums
[09:19] <eroomde> especially about the eveils of NEGATIVE FEEDBACK
[09:19] <Upu> sure you'd have more success converting the theists to atheisim
[09:19] <eroomde> take them on a weeklong course where you start with 1+1 = 2 and end up with basic linear systems theory
[09:20] <eroomde> then leave them in a room with a bottle of whiskey and a revolver
[09:20] <eroomde> clean up, repeat
[09:20] <eroomde> i just found someone touting his amp which has NO NEGATIVE FEEDBACK
[09:20] <DL1SGP> wait, have them buy HAB supplies from Upu first and launch a few balloons for our entertainment before taking the final step :)
[09:21] <eroomde> yet almost every emplification stage is an emitter-follower
[09:21] <Upu> http://rlv.zcache.com/negative_feedback_coffee_mug-r74147158d6f54fd991ba0420b1a3afe9_x7jsg_8byvr_512.jpg
[09:21] <eroomde> there is no saving these people from their stupidity
[09:21] <LeoBodnar> USB cables for $1000 with insulation subjected to DC offset at 48V for "more open sound"
[09:22] <LeoBodnar> Ah, helloooo. USB? not even SPDIF
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[09:39] <LeoBodnar> There were some amp designs with no feedback
[09:40] <LeoBodnar> basically relying on class-A biased transistor being "good enough"
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[10:04] <S_Mark> Had an idea last night, no idea if it is a go-er, but I wrote it up anyway http://ukhas.org.uk/ideas:ssdvforhab
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[10:07] <mikestir> S_Mark: you're describing "P frames"
[10:08] <number10> I havent looked at the data transmission of SSDV - simple run length encoding would reduce the data transmitted. does it use any fsphil?
[10:08] <mikestir> number10: it's JPEG data so RLE probably wouldn't do a great deal since it's already huffman coded
[10:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> It would also require that the sensor and lens are identical between the flown device and the reference images.
[10:09] <number10> aha - cheers mikestir
[10:09] <S_Mark> Looks like I am describing P-frames ha A Pframe ('Predicted picture') holds only the changes in the image from the previous frame. For example, in a scene where a car moves across a stationary background, only the car's movements need to be encoded. The encoder does not need to store the unchanging background pixels in the Pframe, thus saving space. Pframes are also known as deltaframes.
[10:09] <mikestir> there was a discussion about this a while ago
[10:09] <number10> I should read up before engaging brain :)
[10:10] <mikestir> the problem is that if you miss a frame you lose all subsequent frames until the next I frame
[10:10] <S_Mark> The idea I was having was that these would be a static 'bank' of reference images
[10:10] <S_Mark> This wasnt for video, per se, just speeding up still images
[10:11] <mikestir> it's an interesting idea
[10:11] <S_Mark> Geoff-G8DHE-M: I was thinking that a lot of people are using the Pi and Pi Camera for this
[10:11] <S_Mark> So we are beginning to build up some reference images from the same sensor
[10:12] <S_Mark> These images would be loaded on to the Pi SD card before it was flown
[10:12] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Appreciate that but there have only been two projects that have used it so far ?
[10:12] <S_Mark> ah ok, thought there were more. Well hopefully there will be more in the future
[10:13] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> daveke and norb I think is all but correct me if wrong ?
[10:14] <fsphil> number10: mikestir: jpeg has RLE already, ssdv inherits that
[10:14] <fsphil> it does RLE on the zero values
[10:14] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> You could use the technique however between images on the same flight perhaps
[10:15] <mikestir> fsphil: interesting - didn't know that
[10:15] <fsphil> the idea is that most of the DCT data is zero
[10:15] <S_Mark> thats another good idea Geoff-G8DHE-M
[10:15] <mikestir> I thought it just relied on the huffman coding
[10:16] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> you need to compare the images at the raw level before jpeg to do it of course.
[10:16] <fsphil> the huffman symbols for the AC coefficients have two parts. the first part is the number of zeros preceeding it
[10:16] <fsphil> so it can encode up to 15 zeros into a single symbol
[10:16] <fsphil> well, 16
[10:17] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> bigger problem will be that the horizon line is not stable so most differences will be accounting for that
[10:17] <fsphil> I had considered intra-frames for daveake's bear drop
[10:18] <fsphil> the images where mostly similar
[10:18] <fsphil> and in the end all packets where received, so kinda wish I had
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[10:18] <fsphil> but if the images are very different, taken minutes apart, there's probably not much you could do to improve compression
[10:19] <S_Mark> yeah maybe for something where you have a fixed object this could be used for
[10:19] <fsphil> the sky won't change much, but it's very compressable already
[10:19] <fsphil> the ground will change enough that encoding the differences will probably be as much work as encoding it directly
[10:19] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> jpeg also only compresses the colour info as well
[10:20] <fsphil> it's all compressed
[10:20] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> ok
[10:20] <S_Mark> The difference between that fsphil and what I was thinking was that you were comparing your image taken 'live' with the 'most suitable known reference image', already stored on the SD card
[10:21] <mikestir> the difficulty will be in determining the differences, because they will be significant
[10:21] <S_Mark> so you would do a comparison algorithm and then a difference algorithm
[10:21] <mikestir> it's probably not going to result in much compression gain
[10:21] <fsphil> the differences would make it pretty poor
[10:21] <LeoBodnar> fractal compression then
[10:21] <LeoBodnar> database of clouds
[10:21] <mikestir> something like mpeg works by doing motion estimation on small parts of the image, determining how far they have moved and in which direction
[10:21] <LeoBodnar> and farm field patches
[10:22] <S_Mark> yes LeoBodnar lol
[10:22] <mikestir> the search only happens over a small range of pixels - more is impractical
[10:22] <fsphil> better to optimise the huffman codes to different parts of the image
[10:22] <fsphil> or switch to arithmetic encoding
[10:22] <mikestir> fsphil: how about a hybrid scheme where each image is a low res I frame and high res P frame
[10:22] <mikestir> then send the high res I frame less frequently
[10:23] <mikestir> I suppose the large delay between frames is still going to be the limiting factor
[10:23] <fsphil> yep
[10:24] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> provide the camera atitude info and simulate the image in GE ;-)
[10:25] <fsphil> webp seems to be offering the best compression at the moment, and that's not a huge improvement
[10:25] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> gets rid of all the clouds :-)
[10:26] <fsphil> and night time :p
[10:29] <fsphil> there's probably enough data in the ssdv database to produce better huffman tables now
[10:30] <LeoBodnar> or just run the compress with --no-clouds option
[10:31] <fsphil> low pass filter them
[10:31] <fsphil> looks like someone's done that here. it's just grey up there
[10:32] <LeoBodnar> you mean pass under them?
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[10:33] <Reb-SM3ULC> fsphil: the good old one.. sort the bits in ones an zeros.. count them, send the two values, done!
[10:34] <fsphil> hah
[10:34] <fsphil> create a program that describes it in english
[10:34] <LeoBodnar> just divide them and send one number
[10:34] <fsphil> "the sky is dark blue, there's some clouds below and the sun is bright"
[10:35] <LeoBodnar> anything not in the database do("wooo! wtf was that?");
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[10:38] <Geoff-G8DHE> just use b/w and we can fill it in ourselves
[10:40] <Geoff-G8DHE> Ah OSJ is flying today I see
[10:43] <Reb-SM3ULC> vectorize it.. one line.. sky.. !sky... ;)
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[10:54] <fsphil> best thing we can do is speed up the data transmittion
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[10:57] <S_Mark> what are the plans for that
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[10:59] <fsphil> all theory at the moment I think
[11:00] <fsphil> I suspect you can do 1200 baud using existing systems without much issue
[11:00] <fsphil> the main problem it had previously was the limited bandwidth of amateur radio receivers (2800hz)
[11:00] <fsphil> SDRs don't have that problem
[11:01] <S_Mark> Right ok
[11:01] <fsphil> faster modes that that will probably not be FSK
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[11:05] <gonzo___> alot of people still use analogue radios though, and will do for a long time
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[11:58] <chf-> hello
[11:58] <Upu> morning chf-
[11:58] <chf-> morning, upu
[12:02] <DL1SGP> morning Upu, chf-, *
[12:02] <chf-> g'day DL1SGP
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[12:41] <LeoBodnar> Upu: ping
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[12:45] <brainles71> Evening/morning everyone
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[12:48] <Upu> hi LeoBodnar
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[12:49] <brainles71> Howdy
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[12:52] <Upu> just grabbing a bite to eat Leo back soon
[12:52] <LeoBodnar> afternoon Anthony
[12:52] <Upu> oh timing
[12:52] <LeoBodnar> cool
[12:52] <Upu> is it quick ? :)
[12:52] <LeoBodnar> no
[12:52] <LeoBodnar> lol
[12:52] <Upu> back in 30 mins or so then :)
[12:52] <LeoBodnar> ok!
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[12:55] <brainles71> Hey Upu where are you from?
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[12:59] <OK1IUO> Hi where can I find frequency for SP5NVX balon?
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[13:00] <LeoBodnar> brainles71: Upu is in the UK
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[13:11] <x-f> OK1IUO, try 437.675, 150 bd
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[13:24] <Upu> ping LeoBodnar
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[13:28] <Willdude123> Oh yay. My server is back up.
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[13:39] <LeoBodnar> yo Upu
[13:39] <Upu> hey Leo
[13:39] <LeoBodnar> Do you have UBLOX magic software?
[13:39] <Upu> well I have Ucenter if thats what you mean
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[13:40] <LeoBodnar> I am looking for satellite navigation data
[13:40] <LeoBodnar> does it output satellite clock correction details?
[13:40] <LeoBodnar> a lot of strange looking numbers
[13:40] <Upu> I'll have to plug a GPS in
[13:40] <Upu> let me see if I have one
[13:41] <LeoBodnar> Tgd, af2 af1 af0, etc
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[13:42] <Upu> wiring up
[13:44] <Upu> where am I looking ?
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[13:44] <LeoBodnar> satellite health data?
[13:45] <LeoBodnar> or raw navigation data stuff
[13:45] <LeoBodnar> I don't know if they have this option
[13:45] <Upu> raw you need a timing module
[13:45] <Upu> don't have one here but can get that
[13:45] <LeoBodnar> well it's not really raw data, it's navigation message
[13:46] <LeoBodnar> let me see UBLOX protocol
[13:46] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/yv6lYpy.jpg
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[13:49] <LeoBodnar> RXM-EPH (only available with raw data product variant)
[13:49] <LeoBodnar> ah
[13:49] <Upu> I'll make one on Monday
[13:49] <Upu> been meaing to make one up fro a while
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[13:49] <LeoBodnar> ah I see.
[13:50] <Upu> I have the timing modules
[13:50] <LeoBodnar> This is per SV info (internal satellite clock correction values)
[13:50] <LeoBodnar> is timing == raw?
[13:50] <Upu> yes
[13:50] <LeoBodnar> ah
[13:50] <Laurenceb_> isnt this on the USAF ftp site?
[13:52] <LeoBodnar> AID-EPH GPS Aiding Ephemeris Input/Output Message Supported on: " u-blox 7 firmware version 1.00
[13:52] <LeoBodnar> seems available for all products
[13:52] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: ah, is it the one with titz* files?
[13:53] <Laurenceb_> http://pastebin.com/mtMMRytH
[13:54] <Upu> back in a bit
[13:55] <LeoBodnar> right, so some sats have 0.5msec timing offset
[13:56] <Laurenceb_> annoying
[13:56] <LeoBodnar> so you need this info for A-GPS, I hope it does not change often
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[13:57] <Laurenceb_> im guessing its integrated af(1) ?
[13:58] <Laurenceb_> in which case up to 24m/day
[13:58] <Laurenceb_> erm 240m
[13:58] <Laurenceb_> but you might be able to extrapolate
[13:58] <Laurenceb_> this seems somewhat annoying
[13:59] <Laurenceb_> you must be able to extropolate
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[13:59] <Laurenceb_> as the almanac would have to be updated really rapidly for it to be any use
[14:00] <Laurenceb_> i mean ive had a lassen iq on battery backup for weeks, and its got a lock in a few seconds
[14:00] <Laurenceb_> so it can clearly extrapolate
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[14:02] <LeoBodnar> there are sec, sec/sec and sec/sec^2 params so correction must be possible for quite a period offline
[14:02] <LeoBodnar> page 24 http://www.gps.gov/technical/ps/1995-SPS-signal-specification.pdf
[14:03] <Laurenceb_> ah
[14:03] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[14:05] <LeoBodnar> page 40 formula (2)
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[14:07] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[14:07] <Laurenceb_> i guess you need to look at allen variance of ceasium clocks
[14:07] <Laurenceb_> if the clock is aligned correctly at the time the almanac is issued, then how well can you extropolate
[14:08] <S_Mark> once you have run SSDV with -e and have the resulting binary file - just a case of transmitting this or you need to further break it up for fldigi to receive it?
[14:08] <Laurenceb_> http://leapsecond.com/museum/manyadev.gif
[14:08] <S_Mark> I am getting very partial bits of image at the mo
[14:09] <LeoBodnar> I guess for a few days' fight you need just an offset. Atomic clock shouldn't drift too much
[14:09] <LeoBodnar> *flight
[14:09] <Laurenceb_> so from that graph i get 4m error after 2 weeks
[14:10] <x-f> S_Mark, just read the binary file in 256 byte chunks and transmit
[14:10] <LeoBodnar> sounds sensible
[14:10] <LeoBodnar> current offset could have accumulated during years
[14:11] <S_Mark> so split it and loop through transmitting x-f
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[14:11] <LeoBodnar> I don't know how often they update the offsets
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[14:13] <x-f> S_Mark, yes
[14:13] <LeoBodnar> The reference time for UTC data (tot) is referenced to the start of that week whose number (WNt) is given in word eight of page 18 in subframe 4. The WNt value consists of the eight LSBs of the full week number. The user must account for the truncated nature of this parameter as well as truncation of WN, WNt, and WLSF due to rollover of the full week number (see paragraph 2.3.5(b)).
[14:13] <LeoBodnar> Annoying
[14:14] <S_Mark> cool will give that a go x-f cheers
[14:15] <x-f> S_Mark, for a test you can transmit it in one go too, without looping (and interleaving telemetry), dl-fldigi should decode it correctly anyway
[14:16] <S_Mark> x-f yeah that is what I am trying at the mo 'cat image.bin > /dev/ttyAMA0'
[14:16] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: actually i screwed that up
[14:16] <Laurenceb_> up to 75m after 2 weeks
[14:17] <Laurenceb_> but thats for general ceasium clock
[14:17] <LeoBodnar> still not a disaster
[14:17] <Laurenceb_> gps should be pretty good
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[14:17] <Laurenceb_> orbital drift looks much smaller
[14:17] <S_Mark> loosing a lot of packets so there must be something wrong either with the hardware or transmission setup
[14:17] <Laurenceb_> a few meters over same period it seems
[14:18] <LeoBodnar> but finding the reference time for drift is a bit convoluted as you have to fish for page 18 in subframe 4
[14:18] <LeoBodnar> maybe it can be recomputed before launch
[14:18] <chrisstubbs> S_Mark, is this on the pi?
[14:19] <S_Mark> yes
[14:19] <chrisstubbs> dl-fldigi bandwidth on auto?
[14:19] <Laurenceb_> http://ej.iop.org/images/0957-0233/21/7/073001/Full/mst354004fig01.jpg
[14:19] <Laurenceb_> tadaaa
[14:19] <LeoBodnar> and time offset recalculated to e.g. nearest midninght
[14:19] <S_Mark> yeah auto chrisstubbs
[14:19] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: i was thinking load Almanac at launch and use RTC
[14:19] <S_Mark> 8n1
[14:19] <S_Mark> 300 baud at the mo
[14:19] <Laurenceb_> libswiftnav left you just plug everything in
[14:20] <Laurenceb_> ^that graph i linked gives worst case ~10^-13.5 over ~2weeks
[14:20] <Laurenceb_> which is 75m or so
[14:21] <Laurenceb_> so ~ 7.5 to 75m dependant on the quality of the sats clock
[14:22] <mfa298> S_Mark: you might need to check if the uart is doing any character conversions as that might break the data. If it's python I think Matt had written some code that works which might give some clues.
[14:24] <S_Mark> thanks mfa298. It will be in python soon, at the mo just testing sending the resulting binary file from ssdv over serial
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[14:25] <mfa298> you might need to set some extra flags with stty although I'm not sure what your might need off hand
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[14:25] <mfa298> but look for things like cr/lf conversion
[14:26] <S_Mark> ah ok I'll have a look now. it is also doing this every so often http://imgur.com/nazsDkt
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[14:27] <LeoBodnar> I guess they don't actively reset PLL counters, just update NAV message correction
[14:27] <Laurenceb_> arg
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[14:27] <Laurenceb_> i cant do this right
[14:27] <Laurenceb_> _modified_ allen deviation
[14:28] <Laurenceb_> that makes it approx 22m worst case
[14:28] <Laurenceb_> after 2 weeks
[14:28] <Laurenceb_> so orbital drift and clock drift are of similar order
[14:28] <Laurenceb_> and no issues for a pico flight
[14:28] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[14:28] <Laurenceb_> unless you get super long duration stuff
[14:29] <LeoBodnar> you can probably reload almanac during daytime
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> i think libswiftnav has got this worked out
[14:29] <LeoBodnar> when plenty of energy is available
[14:29] <Laurenceb_> theres some error estimation stuff in there based off age of the almanac
[14:30] <Laurenceb_> so up to 2 weeks old with extrapolation doesnt seem to be an issue
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[14:37] <Laurenceb_> http://docs.swift-nav.com/libswiftnav/group__almanac.html#ga33775ec9fc429419253378abb385d576
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[14:43] <Laurenceb_> bbl
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[14:47] <fsphil> S_Mark: you need 8n2
[14:47] <fsphil> or 8n1.5
[14:47] <S_Mark> ah!
[14:47] <fsphil> although it shouldn't lose you that many packets
[14:48] <fsphil> how are you opening the serial port?
[14:48] <fsphil> also you need to have stopped the kernel using the serial port too
[14:48] <fsphil> it'll output messages on it by default on the pi
[14:49] <S_Mark> sorry it is 8n2. stty 300 cs8 cstopb < /dev/ttyAMA0, there there are two things that I did to 'free the serial port'
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[14:49] <S_Mark> http://www.raspberrypi-spy.co.uk/2013/12/free-your-raspberry-pi-serial-port/
[14:49] <S_Mark> maybe should try this minicom rather than stty
[14:50] <fsphil> how are you sending the packets to the port?
[14:50] <fsphil> it might not be handling null's correctly
[14:50] <fsphil> or may be converting newlines
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[14:51] <S_Mark> well as a test I created 1 160x160 image, ran that through ssdv to get an output .bin file and then just did cat image.bin > /dev/ttyAMA0
[14:51] <fsphil> cat should be ok
[14:51] <fsphil> could be the newline thing
[14:51] <mattbrejza> get a usb->serial converter on the pi's output, then a serial terminal with a hex display on the pc
[14:51] <mattbrejza> then compare the .bin to the actual output
[14:53] <S_Mark> thats a good idea
[14:53] <S_Mark> dont own one at the mo though
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[14:53] <mfa298> safer option might be to use a logic analyser but that's a bit more effort.
[14:54] <fsphil> try stty raw
[14:54] <fsphil> should disable all the translations
[14:54] <mfa298> then you know that what you're using to read the data isn't doing any conversions
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[15:27] <S_Mark> fsphil mfa298 - thanks guys. to begin with I was just doing stty raw and that wasnt working and was breaking the terminal window, after much fiddling doing 'stty -F /dev/ttyAMA0 raw' has fixed the issues!
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[15:32] <mfa298> stty is used for configuring a terminal, by default I think it operates on the current terminal (your login session.) -F or < will tell it to operate on something else (/dev/ttyAMA0 for the uart)
[15:35] <S_Mark> thats what you get for growing up on Windows! cheers all makes sense now. getting 640x480 at 600baud with no issues now
[15:36] <mfa298> with any luck it'll be easier when you use something like python to do it
[15:37] <mfa298> assuming your planning on using python
[15:39] <S_Mark> yeah I was unless there is a better way? Gunna be a first time for that too
[15:41] <mfa298> pythons probably a good choice if you've not got much experiene in anything else.
[15:41] <S_Mark> I have, just not in Python haha
[15:42] <S_Mark> looks easy enough though
[15:42] <mfa298> a few people have used C/C++ (but python will get you going quicker)
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[15:51] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb_: so knowing almanac and RTC you can avoid sweeping the Doppler space (assuming you correct local clock from time to time)
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[16:04] <LeoBodnar> From UBLOX manual: "The EGNOS SBAS system does not provide the satellite ranging function."
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[16:09] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
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[16:55] <rogerponts> I have a problem with the u-blox max 6-q, it says that "Reading ACK response: (FAILED!)", why it shows this error ?
[16:57] <Upu> you're not getting anything back from the GPS module when you're trying to set the mode
[16:57] <Upu> swap RX and TX ver
[16:57] <Upu> over
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[17:03] <rogerponts> it says the same
[17:03] <Upu> Are you using software serial ?
[17:04] <rogerponts> yes
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[17:04] <Upu> that
[17:04] <Upu> generally breaks it
[17:04] <Upu> I think in the example code it slows it down to 4800 baud ?
[17:04] <rogerponts> yes
[17:05] <Upu> it will be a software serial issue I'm sure
[17:07] <Upu> it may eventually work
[17:07] <Upu> I can't offer a fix for that I'm afraid
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[17:11] <chrisstubbs> apart from using hardware serial
[17:12] <Upu> well yes that :)
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[17:19] <rogerponts> Now I have another problem, the Arduino can upload the file and show's this error "avrdude: stk500_getsync(): not in sync: resp=0x00".
[17:20] <Upu> disconnect the GPS whilst programming
[17:21] <Upu> or put some 1K resistors on the RX and TX lines : http://www.billporter.info/2011/06/26/how-to-add-multiple-uart-connections/
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[17:34] <rogerponts> ok, now it works the arduino. But the gps not. If instead of using the software serial I send the gps data through the NTX2 it should work, no ?
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[17:39] <rogerponts> Upu, if I send the GPS data through the NTX2 instead of the Software Serial it should work, no ?
[17:42] <chrisstubbs> rogerponts, have you changed the code to use hw serial not SS?
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[17:42] <rogerponts> I don't know how to do it
[17:43] <chrisstubbs> can you upload your code to pastebin to take a look at?
[17:44] <rogerponts> well, the code I'm using is the example code from a tutorial of UKHAS (http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:ublox6?s[]=gps)
[17:47] <chrisstubbs> rogerponts, do you have a usb-ttl adapter handy?
[17:48] <rogerponts> no
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[17:50] <chrisstubbs> ok well if your talking to the GPS using hardware serial, the arduino wont be able to talk to your PC over the usb port as that uses the hardware serial port too
[17:52] <rogerponts> If instead of trying to send it through the serial I send it through the NTX2 ? Because if don't do it know I'll have to do it later
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[17:57] <chrisstubbs> yes that will need to be done, however its not as simple as just connecting the ublox to the ntx2
[17:57] <chrisstubbs> the arduino will need to parse the data from the GPS, reformat it to something like $$payload,time,lon,lat...*checksum
[17:58] <chrisstubbs> then send that at a suitable baud rate using the ntx2 (eg 50 baud)
[17:59] <chrisstubbs> have you tried connecting the ntx2 to the arduino and decoding the radio signal yet?
[18:00] <rogerponts> not yet
[18:01] <chrisstubbs> Okay give that a go so you can see how it all works
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[18:22] <fsphil> nice model S_Mark
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[18:24] <S_Mark> haha have my SSDV images been uploading!?
[18:24] <S_Mark> yes they have lol
[18:24] <S_Mark> cool at least I didnt do anything dodgy
[18:24] <daveake> lol
[18:25] <daveake> I'm always nervous when doing ssdv testing
[18:25] <S_Mark> Yeah I won that Skylon! From winning the UK Space Agency Christmas Card competition with Santa in Space!
[18:25] <daveake> no walking into the office before getting dressed...
[18:25] <arko> woah cool!
[18:25] <arko> wanttt
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[18:26] <arko> s/Sk/C/
[18:26] <arko> :O damn toasters!
[18:27] <S_Mark> is 640x480 a good size? from experience daveake?
[18:27] <S_Mark> and any special pi camera settings work best?
[18:27] <es5nhc> So, how long did it take to transmit the NEWTES image 1?
[18:27] <daveake> You can go for a wider aspect ratio
[18:27] <fsphil> on the picam a 4:3 image will crop the edges
[18:27] <es5nhc> from 153350z
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[18:28] <daveake> Remember that real flight photos will compress better (sky's black innit) so tx times will be shorter than in testing
[18:29] <daveake> I usually send smaller image below say 3km then larger ones above
[18:29] <fsphil> ^^ good idea
[18:29] <S_Mark> Ah yeah good point!
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[18:29] <fsphil> nothing worse than waiting 5 minutes after launch while it transmits a picture of someones legs
[18:29] <es5nhc> fsphil, LOL
[18:29] <S_Mark> I'll go for some wide images then. lol
[18:29] <daveake> An the special setting youhave to use is matrix metering
[18:30] <S_Mark> Ah ok, whats that do?
[18:30] <daveake> fsphil s/legs/crotch/
[18:30] <fsphil> hah
[18:30] <daveake> it enabled matrix metering :p
[18:30] <S_Mark> haha thanks
[18:30] <S_Mark> :p
[18:30] <daveake> Default is centre weighted which is not so good if the centre is the black sky
[18:31] <Willdude123> Are HF verticals more common than horizontals?
[18:31] <S_Mark> ok thanks daveake
[18:31] <S_Mark> I have read the wiki a few times and done some research, still unsure whether you can connect a ublox via i2c on the pi
[18:32] <fsphil> on my next one I'm going to bump up the brightness and contrast at night
[18:32] <daveake> Of course you can connect it
[18:32] <daveake> It won't work though :p
[18:32] <daveake> Well not 100%
[18:32] <daveake> It'll drop characters
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[18:33] <S_Mark> I have both gps and radio connected via serial, but thats gunna get annoying changing baud rates and only being able to do one thing at once
[18:34] <daveake> Yes, it is annoying
[18:34] <fsphil> very
[18:34] <daveake> You can do software i2c
[18:34] <daveake> Or move the NTX2 to the PWM pin and drive it that way
[18:34] <daveake> software i2c works (surprisingly) well
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[18:35] <fsphil> it's relaxed about timing
[18:35] <daveake> yes
[18:35] <S_Mark> hmm ok, will have a think. That 'bit banging'!?
[18:35] <daveake> yes
[18:35] <fsphil> sounds more exciting than it is
[18:35] <daveake> lol
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[18:38] <S_Mark> maybe I'll go for the annoying 'change baud rate / liner' method for the first time
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[18:40] <fsphil> wish I'd recorded the orion signal on my sdr, see if it was possible to decode the 9600 baud data
[18:40] <daveake> It works. My first 3 Pi flights used it
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[18:41] <fsphil> orion did too. always a worry during the gap
[18:42] <S_Mark> ok sounds fair enough then, yes that is what I was thinking, there will be a gap between a image and a telemetry
[18:42] <fsphil> I had it transmit I think 5 packets before it talked to the gps
[18:43] <S_Mark> 5 packets of image > get gps data > construct gps packet > send gps data > continue with image ?
[18:43] <fsphil> yea
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[19:21] <steve_2e0vet> what does a yellow cross on a component in eagle mean?
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[19:27] <chrisstubbs> have you just deleted a via?
[19:28] <chrisstubbs> might need to ratsnest again and reroute the trace for the via you deleted
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[19:37] <Lunar_Lander> evening
[19:43] <chrisstubbs> evening Lunar_Lander
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[19:45] <Lunar_Lander> evening chrisstubbs
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[19:50] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: ka-ping
[19:50] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: yo
[19:50] <Laurenceb_> its horrible outside :-/
[19:51] <Laurenceb_> just been clearing my garden
[19:51] <nats`> steve_2e0vet maybe something can help you there are nice youtube video on basic function for eagle
[19:51] <nats`> because it's hard to discover every function when you don't know what you should be doing
[19:52] <LeoBodnar> get back to VR
[19:52] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: yeah, almanac + RTC + libswiftnav means you know doppler
[19:52] <Laurenceb_> heh
[19:52] <LeoBodnar> Have you figured EGNOS modulation details?
[19:52] <Laurenceb_> no ive been "cutting wood and carrying water"
[19:53] <LeoBodnar> no change for the last 100,000 years then
[19:53] <Laurenceb_> im guessing 500bps at the "physical layer"
[19:54] <Laurenceb_> which makes it slightly annoying to find
[19:54] <Laurenceb_> but if you can find it, it gives you TCXO offset quite neatly
[19:55] <LeoBodnar> I can see at least PRN 126
[19:55] <LeoBodnar> But apparently they cannot be used for ranging
[19:55] <LeoBodnar> not sure why
[19:55] <Laurenceb_> im guessing uncalibrated clock?
[19:56] <LeoBodnar> maybe because they don't have standrad GPS timing structure
[19:56] <Laurenceb_> yeah
[19:56] <LeoBodnar> I am sure their clock is top notch
[19:57] <LeoBodnar> so do you reckon they have at least two periods of PRNs in phase?
[19:57] <Laurenceb_> yes
[20:00] <Laurenceb_> i guess its worth using just to get TCXO frequency
[20:00] <Laurenceb_> then you can find the other sats easily
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[20:01] <LeoBodnar> yeah
[20:01] <LeoBodnar> maybe to quickly read time as well if RTC is dead
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[20:01] <Laurenceb_> then its just a case of "carrier based aquisition"
[20:01] <LeoBodnar> I have not looked at the message structure yet
[20:01] <LeoBodnar> 1/2 FEC coded
[20:01] <Laurenceb_> need to get that running in matlab
[20:02] <Laurenceb_> it could probably be done using libswiftnav functions and a little bit of matrix stuff
[20:02] <Laurenceb_> in c
[20:02] <LeoBodnar> make it asm
[20:03] <Laurenceb_> need to solve for ECEF position, time of week and time offset
[20:03] <Laurenceb_> lol no need
[20:03] <Laurenceb_> it will be nice and fast with an FPU
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[20:03] <Laurenceb_> the pruned FFT is where asm is needed, that will be ~90% of the cycles
[20:04] <Laurenceb_> when i get time i'll try some carrier based acquisition in matlab using Kai Borre functions
[20:05] <Laurenceb_> aha
[20:05] <Laurenceb_> https://github.com/GAVLab/gnss_sdr/blob/master/geoFunctions/
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[20:09] <Laurenceb_> i think libswiftnav can give you satellite position and velocity as vectors in ECEF coordinates
[20:10] <Laurenceb_> then its just a case of moving the satellites along their velocity vectors according to time of week offset until everything is self consistent
[20:10] <Laurenceb_> so newton-raphson / kalman
[20:12] <Laurenceb_> stm32 rtc has two trim registers that let you trim it +-1*n ppm, so you could discipline the RTC using time of week offset
[20:13] <LeoBodnar> would it not be easier to correct in code?
[20:13] <Laurenceb_> maybe :P
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> so basically this is normal gps, but with an added time of week offset term
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> but weirdly you still only need 4 sats
[20:14] <Laurenceb_> quite clever stuff
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[20:15] <Laurenceb_> i guess this is why gps on phones always seem to work so well
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> also why iphones have that evil "approximate position history" file
[20:16] <Laurenceb_> its for feeding into the almanac based estimator
[20:17] <LeoBodnar> so how hab would deal with it?
[20:17] <LeoBodnar> save it in EEPROM for occasional restarts?
[20:17] <Laurenceb_> i guess that would be sane, yes
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[20:18] <Laurenceb_> 1second time of week offset is only a few hundered m offset due to satellite velocity
[20:18] <Laurenceb_> well - maybe a bit more
[20:19] <Laurenceb_> but not 3*10^8 meters
[20:20] <LeoBodnar> aha
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[20:21] <Laurenceb_> so actually if you had a very good RTC you could just "coast" on it
[20:22] <Laurenceb_> but there is apparently no need, as long as at any given time the error is only a few seconds you can solve for time of week offset
[20:22] <LeoBodnar> they need so little energy you might just run a separate RTC IC
[20:23] <LeoBodnar> I wonder if it is easier to get time from SBAS
[20:23] <LeoBodnar> but they are not everywhere
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> you need to run a correlator then
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> thats power hungry
[20:23] <Laurenceb_> RTC can be down to a microamp
[20:24] <Laurenceb_> correlator is going to take more power
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[21:18] <Laurenceb_> stop, grammar time
[21:18] <Laurenceb_> should i begin with upper case after : ?
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[21:22] <SpeedEvil> 'I' should in general always be capitalised.
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> heh
[21:23] <SpeedEvil> My understanding is yes.
[21:24] <qyx_> i don't agree
[21:24] <qyx_> it sounds too egocentric
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[21:28] <Laurenceb_> heh
[21:28] <Laurenceb_> doesnt look right to me with capitals
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[21:30] <Laurenceb_> oh its an american thing
[21:30] <Laurenceb_> i see now
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[21:33] <SpeedEvil> Oh - I entirely missed the :
[21:33] Action: SpeedEvil is not awake.
[21:33] <SpeedEvil> I have an annoying shoulder pain.
[21:33] <SpeedEvil> That is not 'properly' painful.
[21:34] <SpeedEvil> But is still quite adequate to stop me getting to sleep.
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[21:34] <Laurenceb_> :-/
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[21:49] <mikestir> ha. HF antenna is up - S9 noise and buzzing across every band. hurray for CE marking
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[21:55] <fsphil> yay noise
[21:56] <fsphil> I know how you feel
[21:56] <mikestir> interesting. seems to be really bad around 12/13 MHz, and it peaks every 200 kHz or so
[21:56] <mikestir> probably bad smpsu
[21:58] Action: fsphil officially hates pulseaudio
[21:58] <fsphil> wasn't sure before. now I am
[22:00] <mikestir> it's not so bad, apart from that sample rate bug - that's annoying
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[22:11] <Reb-SM3ULC> mikestir: receiver?
[22:13] <mikestir> Reb-SM3ULC: definitely external - same on multiple receivers
[22:17] <Reb-SM3ULC> mikestir: sorry, i meant to ask what receiver you have
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[22:18] <mikestir> oh sorry. Icom IC706 mk1 and AOR AR8200mk3
[22:19] <fsphil> I have the AM receiver on in the car sometimes and there are some really bad noises coming from certain buildings
[22:19] <Reb-SM3ULC> mikestir: aah
[22:19] <mikestir> the 706 is admittedly in a bad way - it seems very deaf on the higher HF bands. I have a reasonably well calibrated rf sig gen though so I'll make some measurements when I get chance
[22:20] <mikestir> fsphil: I just went for a little walk and the really bad noises seem to be coming from my house, embarrassingly!
[22:20] <fsphil> hah
[22:20] <fsphil> time to unplug everything
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[22:20] <mikestir> too much computer equipment
[22:20] <fsphil> it's probably just one psu
[22:20] <mikestir> yeah, radio on a gel cell and the big switch flicked I think
[22:20] <mikestir> it seems particularly bad in the vicinity of the dishwasher, funnily enough
[22:21] <mikestir> I'll unplug that once it's finished running
[22:21] <mfa298> good excuse to stop the rest of the house watching EastEnders
[22:21] <fsphil> nice
[22:21] <mikestir> it could just be re-radiating of course
[22:21] <fsphil> I tracked my local noise down to the mains wiring, but the actual source is not my house
[22:22] <fsphil> probably something a neighbour is running
[22:22] <mikestir> yeah this noise is very obvious if you hold a telescopic against the wall near to the wiring
[22:22] <mikestir> it seems less bad near the consumer unit though, suggesting it's not coming from outside
[22:22] <fsphil> ooh the consumer unit
[22:22] <fsphil> never tried receiving near that
[22:22] <fsphil> what antenna have you got?
[22:22] <mikestir> homebrew OCF dipole
[22:23] <mikestir> well, I suppose I should call it a doublet
[22:23] <mikestir> still needs a bit of tuning, but it's a reasonable match on all the bands it's supposed to be
[22:25] <mikestir> I did manage to hear myself on the dutch sdr earlier with about 7 watts
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[22:36] <aadamson> If anyone is interested, I've pretty much got the working of tracduino ported to the stmf303 + si4463 :)... obviously pin configuration will be unique to my f303 board. Running pwm timer at 281khz and sample clock at 100khz. I'm still verifying functioning, but at least it makes 1200 and 2200 bell 202 tones just fine and the baud clock seems to be accurate.... I may lower the sample clock as I'm pretty sure that 10us of ti
[22:36] <aadamson> me isn't enough to complete my ISR... But for now it's pretty much a straight logic port over with changes for the F303... https://github.com/akadamson/STM32F3-SiRadio - still a working in process, but figured I'd share
[22:37] <aadamson> running on this setup - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/6730484/DSCN2416.JPG
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[22:39] <Upu> your SMA isn't solder on :)
[22:39] <Upu> looks good
[22:40] <fsphil> nice colour
[22:41] <Upu> OSH Park I suspect
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[23:02] <mikestir> hmm. turning the dishwasher off didn't solve the interference problem, but it did trip the RCD
[23:02] <mikestir> and that didn't solve the problem either, so it's either a light bulb or coming from someone else's house
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[23:11] <aadamson> Upu, thanks, yeah, that's an OSH park board, done with a stencil and then a toaster over, but you convinced me to do the T-962a at some point... BTW that code has spi, uart and vcp fully functional for the f3, still needs a little clean up, but having a working vcp, with disconnect is nice
[23:12] <aadamson> I've still got to hook in the last loop (main.c) and I need to clean up the cli which I pulled over from another F3 project that I mess with a flight controller
[23:13] <aadamson> ok, off to dinner with the wife!...
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[23:18] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
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[23:45] <gonzo__> delayed replies r us
[23:46] <Willdude> From a given ratio, how do I calculate dB? For example 1:16
[23:46] <gonzo__> to see if rfi is howm grown, best bet is to shut the trips off to the house
[23:46] <gonzo__> then bring ccts back in slowly
[23:47] <gonzo__> then you can start isolating things on that cct
[23:47] <gonzo__> though if it's coming up the mains from outside, bringing an empty cct could increasethe rfi
[23:48] <gonzo__> but opwering an offending itom off shoukld be pretty obvious
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[23:51] <brainles71> morning everyone
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[23:52] <brainles71> morning gonzo
[23:52] <gonzo_nb> almost!
[23:52] <brainles71> well its morning here *sigh*
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> http://ces.cnet.com/8301-35304_1-57616763/freescale-launches-$149-android-wearables-platform/
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> Awesome - but perhaps not at that price
[23:53] <SpeedEvil> Barking mad footprint
[23:53] <LeoBodnar> Willdude: x10 is +10dB x2 is +3dB
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[23:54] <SpeedEvil> *20 is *10 * 2 = 10+3 = 13dB
[23:54] <LeoBodnar> if you want dB from ratio X:Y it is 10*log(X/Y)
[23:54] <brainles71> interesting stuff
[23:54] <LeoBodnar> log is base 10
[23:54] <brainles71> i have no idea what you guys are talking about
[23:54] <Miek> gonzo_nb / brainles71: http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html :D
[23:55] <brainles71> are you talking about receiver/transmitter power?
[23:55] <gonzo_nb> they are
[23:55] <brainles71> well I'm doing better than i thought
[23:56] <brainles71> pretty new to high altitude related stuff
[23:56] <gonzo_nb> also deciBel is referenced to something. so dBm is referenced to moilliwatts
[23:56] <brainles71> just got my head around the free balloon legislation and now I'm trying to learn about radio
[23:56] <gonzo_nb> dBW is referenced to whole Watts
[23:57] <gonzo_nb> brainles71, you in uk?
[23:57] <brainles71> nah Australia unfortunately
[23:57] <Willdude> LeoBodnar, thanks, think I got it right
[23:57] <Willdude> Doing Nyquist and Shannon limits
[23:57] <gonzo_nb> ok, different rules in different countries
[23:57] <brainles71> not too many people down here doing it either
[23:58] <gonzo_nb> there are .au people here
[23:59] <brainles71> yeah i know Darkside is based here
[23:59] <gonzo_nb> this chan has people from all over. UK is pretty well represented though
[23:59] <brainles71> he's part of project horus and they have almost 30 launches under their belt
[23:59] <brainles71> mmm
[00:00] --- Sun Jan 26 2014