highaltitude.log.20140124

[00:01] <Laurenceb_> interesting
[00:01] <Darkside> augmentation sats
[00:01] <Darkside> they have weird numbers
[00:03] <Darkside> yeah, SBAS uses that range
[00:03] <Darkside> SDCM (Luch-5A), which is geostationary at 16W
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[00:14] <nats`> goodnight channel :)
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[00:19] <Geoff-G8DHE> Good night all
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[00:22] Action: Laurenceb_ zzz
[00:26] <LeoBodnar> good night
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[05:27] <cats7896> Hi all!
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[06:26] <cats7896> Hi
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[06:36] <x-f> good morning
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[06:40] <x-f> we've had clear sky for most of the last two weeks
[06:40] <Upu> morning
[06:41] <x-f> it's cool
[06:41] <x-f> down to -20C cool
[06:41] <Upu> not so clear here
[06:41] <Upu> but warmer :)
[06:41] <x-f> now i miss your rainy weather :)
[06:47] <Upu> lol
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[08:08] <fsphil> Curiosity has gone native: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/01/23/nasa_celebrates_opportunitys_first_decade_on_mars_with_a_selfie/
[08:23] <x-f> didn't know about the doughnut
[08:26] <x-f> on a related note - Rosetta rebooted after wakeup and that caused the delay in AOS - http://blogs.esa.int/rosetta/2014/01/21/rosetta-update-from-mission-control/
[08:27] <fsphil> eek
[08:27] <x-f> most comments are about grammar though :|
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[08:29] <fsphil> the entire mission still working could have come down to a single line of code doing the right thing
[08:29] <daveake> I now feel much better about my last flight rebooting itself :
[08:29] <daveake> p
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[08:36] <cats7896> HI, Good morning
[08:36] <fsphil> morn
[08:37] <cats7896> yea it is morning but I need to go to bed!
[08:37] <cats7896> well night!
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[08:42] <fsphil> rosetta has a 25mhz cpu, faster than I expected
[08:44] <ibanezmatt13> I'd love to be involved in designing satellites systems like they do at that Astrium place. Awesome
[08:44] <fsphil> yea
[08:45] <ibanezmatt13> To be part of a design for something that's about to land on a comet many millions of miles away is just phenomenal
[08:45] <fsphil> a long wait though
[08:46] <ibanezmatt13> I can wait, I guess in the mean time they design and build other cool stuff for satellites :-)
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[08:47] <fsphil> nice, 7.8 bit/s data rate on S band, 22kbit/s data rate on X band
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[08:48] <daveake> That link above says 9kbps
[08:49] <diegoesep> hello everybody
[08:49] <fsphil> probably the distance
[08:49] <fsphil> 22kbit/s could be the maximum
[08:49] <daveake> yes
[08:49] <ibanezmatt13> daveake, did you see that 2 years of Pi vid?
[08:49] <fsphil> hiya diegoesep
[08:50] <daveake> ibanezmatt13 yes, it was very good
[08:50] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, quite a few bear scenes on there
[08:50] <fsphil> it's not bad considering we get about 1kbps at slightly sorter ranges
[08:50] <diegoesep> I'm currently studying what materials to use forr the payload
[08:50] <daveake> True, but I thought the best part was showing kids enthused by it
[08:51] <diegoesep> I've checked this http://ukhas.org.uk/guides:materials
[08:51] <diegoesep> and this : http://www.eoss.org/onlinepubs/construction/foamcore/foamcore.htm
[08:51] <diegoesep> and currently it is still not clear for me if it is better to use Styrofoam or foamcore
[08:51] <diegoesep> ?
[08:51] <fsphil> which is easier for you to get?
[08:52] <diegoesep> I can get both , but it looks like foamcore is more rigid ?
[08:52] <diegoesep> foamcore + insulation looks more rigid than just 30 mm styrofoam
[08:52] <mikestir> we used kingspan cavity wall insulation
[08:52] <diegoesep> what are your experiences on this ?
[08:53] <fsphil> I'm using something similar mikestir
[08:54] <fsphil> all my payloads have been small so I've never had a problem with a soft material
[08:54] <fsphil> and I like that if it did land a bit faster than expected it'll be unlikely to damage anything
[08:54] <diegoesep> this kind of material? : http://www.kingspaninsulation.co.uk/Products/Kooltherm/Kooltherm-K8-Cavity-Board/Overview.aspx
[08:55] <mikestir> that kind of thing - actually I think we used celotex, but it's the same stuff
[08:55] <daveake> That particular one has foil on it
[08:55] <daveake> Which is probaby not a good idea with a gps inside
[08:55] <diegoesep> I plan to use ublox max 7 with sarantel antenna
[08:55] <mikestir> you can peel/cut the foil off
[08:56] <daveake> sure
[08:56] <fsphil> reminds me I need to get more insulatino
[08:57] <fsphil> well that sentence went all Flanders at the end
[08:57] <diegoesep> daveake what kind of payload material do you use?
[08:58] <diegoesep> I plan to carry the same kind of components that you excepted the radio (raspberry pi, camera, ublox GPS, lithium batteries)
[09:00] <diegoesep> in fact I'm afraid that using styofoam can be issue when the payload will land
[09:00] <daveake> No it's fine
[09:00] <diegoesep> but if most of you are using it and have no problem
[09:00] <diegoesep> I will use it
[09:00] <fsphil> it's been used a lot
[09:01] <daveake> I either make boxes with this stuff http://www.hindleys.com/index.php/materials/plastics-foam/sheet/styrofoam-high-density-polystyrene-foam.html and UHU Por glue
[09:01] <daveake> Or I buy pre-made boxes or eggs at Hobbycraft
[09:02] <diegoesep> Ok and what size do you use?
[09:03] <daveake> The white foam is lighter, softer, less brittle and more difficult to work with than the blue/pink stuff
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[09:03] <daveake> Depends - larger boxes need thicker material for strength
[09:03] <fsphil> it also gets everywhere
[09:03] <diegoesep> ok
[09:04] <diegoesep> 25 / 30 mm can be used for a regular payload?
[09:04] <daveake> With the white stuff you'll probably end up using a lot of gaffer tape to add strength
[09:04] <daveake> and the tape will weigh more than the foam
[09:04] <daveake> If the payload is large - sayy 250mm or more, then yes 25mm is about right
[09:05] <diegoesep> ok
[09:05] <daveake> But for something say 100mm across, 10mm is OK IME
[09:05] <diegoesep> and you recommand UHU Por glue
[09:05] <daveake> yes
[09:05] <diegoesep> good to know that thanks :)
[09:06] <diegoesep> so if I go with the styrofoam route, and use the proper glue and tape, it should be fine
[09:06] <diegoesep> have you added foil all around for EMI issues?
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[09:12] <daveake> You don't want foil all around
[09:12] <daveake> Put the GPS aerial near the top
[09:12] <daveake> And keep the Pi and (especially) Pi camera / cable away from the GPS
[09:13] <diegoesep> ok
[09:13] <diegoesep> so for example I do'nt put foil on top
[09:13] <diegoesep> and put the gps near top
[09:13] <daveake> Don't put the foil anywhere
[09:15] <diegoesep> ok, and for the glue , i planned to use Hot Glue Gun but it doesn't seems to be used that much?
[09:15] <diegoesep> if it is safer to use UHU POR glue, i will use instead
[09:15] <daveake> Those can get too hot
[09:16] <diegoesep> I planned to use the low temperature ones
[09:16] <daveake> They can certainly work, but if you leave the gun on for a while then use it, the glue will disappear as it melts through the foam
[09:16] <daveake> Yes low-temp ones are fine
[09:16] <diegoesep> but is it strong enough?
[09:16] <daveake> yes
[09:16] <diegoesep> I'm afraid that my payload may break compared to using the UHU POR :)
[09:17] <daveake> not it's fine
[09:17] <daveake> no^
[09:17] <diegoesep> ok
[09:17] <diegoesep> :)
[09:17] <daveake> I prefer Por but hot melt works. Just be sure there are no air gaps (to let in cold air especially during descent)
[09:18] <diegoesep> Ok I see
[09:18] <diegoesep> so if I use this type of sheet : http://www.hindleys.com/index.php/materials/plastics-foam/sheet/styrofoam-high-density-polystyrene-foam/styrofoam-sheet-600mm-x-1245mm-x-25mm.html
[09:18] <diegoesep> and UHU POR or low temp hot glue , it should be fine?
[09:19] <daveake> Tape over the joins with duct tape or (better, lighter) spinnaker tape
[09:20] <diegoesep> this kind of tape: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CC-Marine-Ripstop-Tape-Spinnaker-Sail-repair-tape-50mm-x-4-5m-self-adhesive-/121259964849 ?
[09:20] <daveake> yup
[09:20] <diegoesep> ok :)
[09:20] <daveake> Not nearly as sticky as duct tape, but much lighter
[09:21] <diegoesep> now I need to find equivalent sheets that I can buy in France :)
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[09:22] <diegoesep> in France the styrofoam brand is not available
[09:22] <diegoesep> we have XPS for extruded polystyrene
[09:22] <daveake> Doesn't matter who makes it
[09:23] <diegoesep> for what is not clear is that a lot of time I see recommandations about the colour of the sheet and not its characteristics
[09:24] <diegoesep> I think 3 parameters are important : insulation properties, rigidity and how easy it is to cut it
[09:24] <daveake> yeah only pink works for HAB :p
[09:24] <diegoesep> :p
[09:25] <daveake> The colour depends on the manufacturer. The pink stuff seems more brittle tha the blue stuff, but I don't have both in the same thicknesses to compare
[09:25] <daveake> but any will be fine
[09:26] <diegoesep> ok
[09:26] <LazyLeopard> ...when it comes to finding a small box hanging from the branches of the tallest tree in the chosen patch of thick woodland, pink is a lot easier to spot than blue or grey... ;)
[09:26] <diegoesep> so what is important is that it should be extruded polystyren
[09:27] <daveake> Yes, and if it's summer and half the fields are bright yellow rape, don't make a yellow payload :)
[09:27] <diegoesep> lol :)
[09:29] <LazyLeopard> Anyone done any stats on payloads lost and recovered against payload colour?
[09:29] <daveake> ha don't think so
[09:30] <daveake> But the lost ones are usually lost because of sea or tree
[09:31] <diegoesep> mediteranean see will be enemy for my launch in south of France :p
[09:31] <diegoesep> http://predict.habhub.org/hourly/diegoesep/
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[09:36] <LeoBodnar> http://www.navipedia.net/index.php/WAAS_Signal_Structure At least 95% of the broadcast power will be contained within the L1 ±12 MHz band.
[09:37] <LeoBodnar> Why is it so wide? It is still 1023Kbps chipping rate like ordinary GPS
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[09:59] <Willdude123> Good morning all
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[10:30] <fsphil> these winds are lasting for ages. I've not seen my hourly predictor landing anywhere near NI in quite a few months
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[10:31] <diegoesep> fsphil: I hope it will be better in a couple of months :)
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[10:34] Nick change: [1]Geoff-G8DHE -> Geoff-G8DHE
[10:34] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[10:35] <daveake> Yep. Less rain would be good too
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[10:36] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
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[10:41] <nats`> hi
[10:42] <SV1NJX> Hi there fellow HAB addicted ...
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[10:43] <SV1NJX> working on an arduino board (trackuino) for HAB team J43VHF
[10:43] <fsphil> suffering HAB withdrawl at the moment
[10:45] <SV1NJX> HAB launch mid May , Peloponeese Greece
[10:53] <fsphil> nice
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[10:58] <SV1NJX> any one can help with code (for tracuino) ? I need to add a humidity sensor also. Pls mail to sv1njx[at]arrl.net
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[11:40] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: EGNOS satellite spotted: http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/PRN126.png
[11:40] <LeoBodnar> data used: http://leobodnar.com/balloons/files/gpsdata31.bin
[11:41] <LeoBodnar> -125Hz offset is probably TCXO tolerance
[11:49] <cm13g09> yay - currently sat in a garage waiting for them to sort the car out
[11:49] <UpuWork> hey LeoBodnar quick Q those solar cells you use do they give about about 0.3V per cell ?
[11:50] <LeoBodnar> 0.65V in cold
[11:57] <eroomde> almost like there's a semiconductor junction in there
[11:57] <Willdude123> Anyone here have much experience with end-fed HF aerials?
[11:58] <mfa298> my only experience was that you need a very good RF ground.
[11:58] <fsphil> or wires, as they're sometimes known :)
[11:58] <fsphil> probably easier to make some kind of dipole
[11:59] <mfa298> when we tried one you could feel the stray RF on the radio with your fingers several cm away from the radio
[11:59] <LeoBodnar> eroomde: PV cell is pretty much a Si diode
[11:59] <eroomde> that was my point
[12:00] <LeoBodnar> rare case when cold is good
[12:00] <eroomde> eg on a hab!
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[12:00] <UpuWork> ok thx
[12:00] <fsphil> my PV array at home seems to be losing power somewhere. each half puts out about 200W but for some reason when I wire them in parallel I'm getting about 250W
[12:01] <gonzo__> agree with phil, a balanced dipole is going to be electrically better
[12:01] <gonzo__> though in a small garden, a vertical is worth looking at
[12:01] <fsphil> or magnetic loop
[12:01] <mfa298> Willdude123: good RF ground is likely to mean >1 long copper rod hammered into the ground with some decent cable from that to the radio/Tuner - A reasonable dipole is likely to be easier and cheaper.
[12:02] <LeoBodnar> fsphil: if the voltages are slightly different the higher voltage one will end up doing most of work
[12:02] <fsphil> ah, there is a slight difference
[12:02] <fsphil> I didn't think it would be enough to have that much of an effect
[12:03] <gonzo__> mine is a cb 5/8 wave antenna screwed to a fence posts cut out so it's just a vertical element, amd the ground is a set of wires run out along the fence. (and a copper watere pipe pushed into the ground)
[12:03] <LeoBodnar> It's like wiring two LEDs with slight Vdrop difference in parallel. One will be much brighter
[12:03] <LeoBodnar> diode V
[12:03] <LeoBodnar> I/V curve is exponential in 1st approximation
[12:03] <LeoBodnar> so very steep change
[12:04] <fsphil> any way to balance them?
[12:04] <Willdude123> mfa298: what about a G5RV? I'm in an OK position for feeding onre
[12:05] <mfa298> Willdude123: g5rv is basicly a dipole with some clever matching - the ladder line will act as part of the antenna or an impedance transformer depending on the band.
[12:05] <gonzo__> a g5rv is just a dipile and soem twin feeder, that has the lemngths tweaked so that it presents a close on 50R impeadence on some AR bands)
[12:05] <LeoBodnar> Maybe dropping a voltage slightly for the more voltey one with inline diode?
[12:05] <gonzo__> snap
[12:05] <LeoBodnar> SO you lose some power but gain more in total?
[12:06] <gonzo__> recomend using a good balun with it. Some bodgy designs just connect the coax feed straight to it
[12:06] <LeoBodnar> /speculation
[12:06] <LeoBodnar> it's not very intuitive as it is power source rather than sink
[12:06] <Willdude123> Hmm
[12:06] <fsphil> worth a try though
[12:06] <gonzo__> with an M6 licence, you can just up the TX power a bit to compensate for losses
[12:06] <fsphil> I'll try it on the next sunny day
[12:07] <mfa298> As a starting point the g5rv is a reasonable place to start. I got one originally but I've now replaced the feeder section with 450R ladder line into a Z match tuner.
[12:07] <Willdude123> Might be a while fsphil
[12:07] <fsphil> so probably sometime in 2015
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[12:07] <gonzo__> what are you feeding with the PV phil?
[12:07] <fsphil> it's going into the grid
[12:08] <gonzo__> my vertical cb ant has an auto ATU in a box at the base. Simple
[12:08] <gonzo__> could you not series them? Will the inverter take that V?
[12:09] <gonzo__> or if you have strings of panels, repatch them to balance the V's a bit?
[12:10] <Willdude123> My radio manual syas this
[12:10] <Willdude123> "This ATU will not operate with
[12:10] <Willdude123> a long wire or ladder line (450 & or other balanced
[12:10] <Willdude123> feedlines)
[12:10] <Willdude123> Does that mean I can't coax feed a balun and use it?
[12:11] <mfa298> Willdude123: probably because it's designed for a 50R coax cable.
[12:11] <Darkside> Willdude123: what tuner is it
[12:11] <mfa298> coax -> Balun -> dipole should be ok.
[12:11] <Darkside> or is this an ATU in your radio
[12:11] <Willdude123> Darkside: in radio
[12:12] <gonzo__> it means that it does not have a balun built in, And probably also that it will only match a limited range of impeadences, not the wide range that a long wore could present
[12:12] <Darkside> oh right
[12:12] <Darkside> coax to balun is fine
[12:12] <mfa298> if it's a built in ATU (radio manual talking about ATU so I assume it is) the range it can tune will probably be lower than an external ATU
[12:12] <Darkside> yeah
[12:12] <Darkside> its a 'trimmer'
[12:12] <Darkside> not a proper tuner
[12:12] <Darkside> so it might only be able to tune in say, 25-600 ohms
[12:12] <Darkside> whereas a long wire could present a much highr impdance
[12:12] <gonzo__> agree with darkside. And that arrangement feeing a g5rv would probably be a good start
[12:12] <Willdude123> I'll see how it does
[12:12] <Darkside> yep
[12:12] <Darkside> G5Rvs ar a good start
[12:13] <Darkside> or a loop
[12:13] <Willdude123> I was going to feed a long wire
[12:13] <mfa298> possibly not even that. most of the built in ATU's I've seen suggest 3:1 match (so somethign like 16-150R)
[12:13] <Willdude123> But I'm not sure
[12:13] <gonzo__> remember that a g5rv will only have a close to 50R imeadence at some AR bands
[12:13] <Darkside> i use a full wave loop on 40m with a 4:! balun on it
[12:13] <Darkside> 4:1 balun*
[12:13] <Willdude123> I asked a question about ununs at the club and the answer was basically don't use a wirte
[12:13] <Darkside> long wirs suck in gneral
[12:13] <mfa298> Willdude123: Stay well away from long wires until you've got some experience.
[12:13] <Darkside> you ned a vry good counterpoise for them to work well
[12:13] <gonzo__> you can build a manual ATU though. That's a veryeasy project. Especially at 10W, as tyou can use RX type capacitors
[12:14] <Darkside> no point for this
[12:14] <Darkside> Willdude123: go with a G5RV or a delta loop
[12:14] <Darkside> it really depends what you have space for
[12:14] <mfa298> Willdude123: also note that longwire usually implies >3 wavelengths (so 120m of wire for 40m)
[12:14] <Darkside> in my case a loop was the most amount of wire i could fit into my hard
[12:14] <Darkside> yard*
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[12:16] <gonzo__> saw a good delta lookm, in a talk baout Ar in the old ussr. It was from the top floor apptmt of a block of flats, to th flats on the other side of the street and down to a bus stop.
[12:16] <Willdude123> Someone offered a G5RV for loan at the club
[12:16] <Darkside> haha
[12:16] <gonzo__> you could make one easilly
[12:16] <Darkside> in my case mine is a skywire loop
[12:16] <Darkside> so the plane of the loop is parallel to the ground
[12:17] <Darkside> means its a skywarmer on 40m, but it works well enough
[12:17] <gonzo__> would work for NVIS though
[12:17] <gonzo__> do yiou have 5MHz in AU?
[12:18] <Darkside> nope :(
[12:18] <Darkside> the WIA is pushing for it
[12:18] <Darkside> but it hasnt happnd yt
[12:18] <gonzo__> we have something like 4 chans there , for experimenting. Don't think you can rag chew, but report passing is ok
[12:19] <gonzo__> think the cadets have access to the chans too, and you can exchage fixed format reports with them too
[12:19] <Willdude123> I had an idea for logs.
[12:19] <Willdude123> A robot that scans hand written logs
[12:19] <gonzo__> big round bits of wood
[12:20] <gonzo__> not used one for years.
[12:20] <Willdude123> Then sends them off for <s>slaves</s> mechanical turk people to transcribe
[12:20] <Willdude123> For like half a penny
[12:21] <navrac_work> does anyone know a pcb company in the uk who can do 1800 small pcb's in 1 to 2 days?
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[12:22] <navrac_work> no one? help!
[12:22] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: yo
[12:22] <Laurenceb> nice results
[12:23] <Laurenceb> i wonder if EGNOS helps with A-GPS
[12:23] <mfa298> gonzo__: I think there's a few more channels now on 5 MHz although still needs a NoV
[12:23] <Willdude123> navrac_work: try asking in #hackvana :P
[12:23] <Laurenceb> i guess you can find the TCXO offset easily
[12:23] <Willdude123> mfa298: why does it?
[12:23] <mfa298> Willdude123: why does what ?
[12:24] <Laurenceb> and grab the almanac and RTC grade time quickly
[12:24] <Laurenceb> so i suppose EGNOS/SBAS/WAAS + A-GPS would make for an interesting receiver
[12:24] <Willdude123> mfa298: 5mhz need a nov
[12:24] <Laurenceb> you would still need approximate position
[12:25] <mfa298> Willdude123: it's not a standard Amateur band so is experimental requiring a Nov (which needs a Full License)
[12:26] <mfa298> there's a couple of bands like that (600M is another)
[12:26] <Willdude123> Do you have to do anything significant for the NoV?
[12:27] <mfa298> I think the main part is show that you're doing suitable experimentation - although as the bands get used more you may need to show less experimental stuff.
[12:27] <gonzo__> NoV is Notice of Variation, basically an extra set of permissions for doing special stuff
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[12:28] <mfa298> you also need to remember that for experimental bands you may need to make stuff as well - those bands may not be covered for transmit by an off the shelf radio (or if it does it may not do a good job as the components may not have been specced for that band)
[12:29] <gonzo__> so repeaters, beacons, special event stations etc, are licenced by a specific person, but with an NoV to allow them to do something more than the basic AR licence
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[12:30] <gonzo__> the NoV for 5mhz and 475kHz are simple online application, but I expect they are for full lucenec holders.
[12:30] <gonzo__> So you may have to wait a few months for that will
[12:30] <LazyLeopard> For 60 metres they require contact phone numbers (including a mobile if you're going out /P), at least in theory...
[12:30] <mfa298> some NoV's are pretty silly (being able to use Q as a secondary prefix in the callsign for the Jubilee) others are more useful like special events, bands etc.
[12:31] <gonzo__> I've just had to apply for a special contest callsign, as I hold our club's licence
[12:31] <mfa298> 60M bandplan says in the notes: LICENCE NOTES: Full Licensees only, with NoV
[12:31] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: yeah it is helpful to have a freq reference up there
[12:31] <LazyLeopard> ...and yes, 5MHz is Full Licence holders only. Some of the NoV application forms happily generate paperwork whatever you enter, but the paperwork will say whether it's actually valid...
[12:32] <LeoBodnar> not much info about SBAS protocol though
[12:32] <Laurenceb> LeoBodnar: ill have a look at EGNOs this evening
[12:32] <Laurenceb> that sounds annoying
[12:32] <Laurenceb> today i have to work on my Chicken disco, bbl
[12:32] <Laurenceb> it has to use I2C for control of the sound/light modules :S
[12:33] <gonzo__> the mind boggles
[12:33] <gonzo__> sounds like something my sister would do
[12:33] <Laurenceb> gonzo__: avian behaviour control via audiovisual stimulation
[12:33] <Laurenceb> megabucks
[12:33] <gonzo__> (she has chickens, and is mad as a spoon, when it comes to them)
[12:33] <LeoBodnar> what music do they prefer?
[12:34] <Laurenceb> i decided not to ask the clients that
[12:34] <Laurenceb> to protect my sanity
[12:34] <mfa298> for some reason "avian behaviour control via audiovisual stimulation" makes me think of A Clockwork Orange!
[12:34] <daveake> Hold a chicken in the air
[12:34] <daveake> Stick a deckchair up your nose
[12:34] <gonzo__> cue bird-band name puns
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[12:34] <Laurenceb> can anyone recommend a rectangular data connector
[12:34] <daveake> usb
[12:34] <daveake> hah
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[12:35] <Laurenceb> need to be ~18 way and very robust
[12:35] <nats`> Laurenceb what do you mean by rectangular
[12:35] <nats`> and what speed
[12:35] <nats`> uhhmm I have what you need :)
[12:35] <Laurenceb> atm im using hirose ST60-18P
[12:35] <daveake> Laurenceb, I wasn't expecting it to meet any of your requirements :)
[12:35] <daveake> apart from rectangular
[12:35] <nats`> te z-pack 2mm hm
[12:35] <Laurenceb> well it carries full speed USB and... wait for it.. I2C
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[12:36] <nats`> http://www.te.com/catalog/minf/en/630
[12:36] <Laurenceb> interesting
[12:36] <nats`> we use them for backplane
[12:36] <nats`> they are modular byslice
[12:36] <nats`> slice
[12:36] <Laurenceb> but it has to be field serviceable and panel mounting or similar
[12:36] <nats`> it's field serviceabl they are press fit
[12:37] <gonzo__> the old D type may work there
[12:37] <Laurenceb> i was considering micro db-9
[12:37] <gonzo__> or a centonics type
[12:37] <Laurenceb> too awkward i think
[12:37] <nats`> for usb 480MB ?
[12:38] <Laurenceb> no, 12
[12:38] <nats`> oh ok no need of those fancy tyco so :D
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[12:39] <gonzo__> use a D type that is not used on PC's, otherwise someone WILL connect it
[12:39] <gonzo__> 15w or 36w
[12:39] <nats`> why don't you keep hirose they are great usually
[12:39] <Laurenceb> i could probably conpress it down to 9w
[12:39] <Laurenceb> nats`: it keeps breaking
[12:40] <Laurenceb> not very resistant to people bending it
[12:40] <Laurenceb> i guess i could pot a Hirose in epoxy
[12:41] <nats`> uhhmmmm wait what is the environment of your stuff ?
[12:41] <nats`> people bending connector ? oO
[12:41] <Laurenceb> nats`: lorry cab
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[12:41] <nats`> ok
[12:42] Nick change: Pilgrimpaul2 -> Pilgrimpaul
[12:42] <nats`> I know we used some automotive connector recently
[12:42] <nats`> let me ask a colleague
[12:42] <Laurenceb> the issue with hirose pcb recepticle is that although it has lugs, the pins tend to get strained as the whole body flexes around
[12:42] <Laurenceb> so i guess rigid epoxy might help
[12:42] <nats`> http://kyae.en.alibaba.com/product/513510526-212848328/GM_Delphi_5_way_TS16949_auto_waterproof_car_connector_GT_150_.html
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[12:42] <nats`> that kind of stuff
[12:42] <Laurenceb> ah
[12:42] <Laurenceb> yeah waterproof would be good too
[12:43] <nats`> http://www.molex.com/molex/products/family?key=mx150_sealed_connector_system&channel=products&chanName=family&pageTitle=Introduction
[12:43] <Geoff-G8DHE> Rectangular, rugged, field sevicable, high current, high voltage ... http://cpc.farnell.com/camdenboss/ctbs431-12m-f/12-way-block-plug-in/dp/CN00143?Ntt=cn00143
[12:43] <Laurenceb> what does it connect to?
[12:43] <nats`> those exactly
[12:43] <Laurenceb> oh
[12:43] <nats`> we connect BTS on roof
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[12:43] <Laurenceb> nice
[12:44] <nats`> waterproof rugged to UV etc...
[12:45] <Pilgrimpaul> Afternoon folk :)
[12:45] <Laurenceb> ok
[12:45] <Laurenceb> ill try some experiments with epoxy + Hirose for starters tho
[12:46] <nats`> no problem :)
[12:47] <nats`> if you need some other reference for conenctor don't hesitate
[12:47] <nats`> we have so much of them here
[12:47] <nats`> from 100mA signal to 100A+
[12:47] <nats`> :D
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[12:50] <LeoBodnar> Deutsch make some nice rectangular stuff
[12:50] <LeoBodnar> http://www.laddinc.com/images/stories/catalog/Deutsch_Catalog.pdf
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[12:53] <Laurenceb> aha
[12:54] <Laurenceb> the DTV ** stuff seems suitable
[12:54] <Laurenceb> panel mount
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[12:56] <gonzo__> you are not mounting them on the chickens?
[12:56] <Laurenceb> not yet
[12:57] <gonzo__> was at a lab (long time ago) where they were doing tests on animals, with pick up wires in the nervous system
[12:57] <gonzo__> saw a cat with a D tyoe in it's head.
[12:57] <Laurenceb> lol
[12:57] <gonzo__> RS232 enabled cat!
[12:57] <Laurenceb> inb4 peta
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[12:59] <daveake> inb4 cat 5
[12:59] <Laurenceb> heh
[12:59] <LeoBodnar> inb4 IEC plug
[12:59] <Laurenceb> aha - the "DTM PCB enclosure" solves all my problems
[12:59] <Laurenceb> very nice
[12:59] <Laurenceb> just needs a PCB :D
[13:00] <LeoBodnar> TE needs a funky logo
[13:02] <Laurenceb> http://www.newark.com/deutsch/eec-325x4b/pcb-enclosure-dtm/dp/27W0091
[13:02] <Laurenceb> perfect
[13:03] <fsphil> gonzo__: nah, in series the voltage is too high for the inveter
[13:03] <Laurenceb> http://www.newark.com/deutsch/eec-325x4b-be016/pcb-enclosure-dtm-clear/dp/27W0092?MER=ACC_N_L5_Connectors_None
[13:03] <Laurenceb> hawt :-)
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[13:13] <Laurenceb> only issue is the connector
[13:13] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/deutsch/dtm06-12sb/plug-dtm-black-b-key-12way/dp/2138248?MER=en-me-pd-r2-acce-con
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[13:13] <Laurenceb> theres no space for the individual conductors to feed into the cable
[13:13] <Laurenceb> a little messy
[13:14] <eroomde> do you mean the crimps are too small for the guage of wire you want to use?
[13:14] <Laurenceb> no
[13:15] <Laurenceb> http://uk.farnell.com/productimages/farnell/standard/2138248-40.jpg
[13:15] <Laurenceb> each of the holes in the back is for a single conductor
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[13:15] <Laurenceb> meaning i have to have a cm or two of unsheathed conductors going to the cable
[13:15] <eroomde> that's really really weird
[13:16] <Laurenceb> its automotive stuff
[13:16] <eroomde> sure
[13:16] <Laurenceb> i guess there is the "pour epoxy on it" option
[13:16] <eroomde> i in theory know about cabling for automotive, aerospace and milspec stuff
[13:16] <eroomde> i have never seen anything that weird
[13:17] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:17] <Laurenceb> i dont really understand it
[13:17] <eroomde> (i say in theory in that i have done stuff to specs, i make no claims about being a master wireman)
[13:17] <Laurenceb> its all fancy and waterproof with matching enclosure
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[13:17] <Laurenceb> then just has holes for individual conductors
[13:17] <eroomde> i don't buy anything not ip68 (when mated) anymore :)
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[13:17] <eroomde> Lemo K or Amphenol GB62 for everything
[13:18] <Laurenceb> yeah ive used them both before
[13:19] <Laurenceb> perhaps not as "user friendly" as this
[13:19] <Laurenceb> but i dunno - that DTM plug looks like itd get broken
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[13:19] <eroomde> the lemos or the amphenols?
[13:19] <Laurenceb> both
[13:19] <eroomde> i wouldn't be surprised if the lemos were popular for medical devices
[13:19] <eroomde> they're so nice
[13:20] <Laurenceb> someone unfamiliar with the kit might try to misinsert
[13:20] <Laurenceb> but they again its so heavy duty..
[13:20] <eroomde> the rule of connectoprs is basically this:
[13:20] <eroomde> 1) it can all be complicated and confusing until someone shows you how to do it properly
[13:20] <eroomde> 2) just accept that you need to buy the right crimp tool. no iffs.,
[13:21] <nats`> you forgot one rule
[13:21] <eroomde> if you can do those two then it's wonderful. i actually quite enjoy making up really nice cable looms for things
[13:21] <nats`> you'll automaticcaly route it in reverse the first time
[13:22] <Laurenceb> oh dear i just had a silly thought
[13:22] <eroomde> you mean like a crossover cable?
[13:22] <Laurenceb> uses SLS printing to make an add on shroud for the DTM plug
[13:22] <nats`> no I mean like I have a female on my board a male on the outside
[13:22] <eroomde> oh
[13:22] <nats`> I'll end up with the pin1 on pin 40 etc.. :D
[13:22] <eroomde> i tend to lay everything out first to try and avoid gender-benders
[13:22] <eroomde> oh yes i see
[13:22] <eroomde> yes
[13:22] <eroomde> i have totally done that
[13:23] <eroomde> the and and B pair of a circular connector get wired up to the A and Z pair on the mating half
[13:23] <nats`> I always ask some colleague to check my design when there are connectors
[13:23] <eroomde> cos you just do clockwise
[13:23] <nats`> I screwed so many board
[13:23] <eroomde> i have sworn and screamed after i made a batch of cables the wrong way round
[13:23] <eroomde> not done it since
[13:23] <eroomde> as i had to work overnight to fix it
[13:24] <Laurenceb> lol this is getting silly
[13:24] <Laurenceb> http://www.farnell.com/cad/1635145.pdf
[13:25] <Laurenceb> so i could make a plastic shroud to solve the issues
[13:25] <eroomde> do you have to use that connector?
[13:25] <Laurenceb> nope, but it is waterproof and comes with matching bulkhea dna denclosure
[13:25] <Laurenceb> solves a ton of other issues
[13:26] <eroomde> oh well
[13:26] <eroomde> gluck
[13:26] <Laurenceb> well - its waterproof at one end :P
[13:26] <eroomde> but having to split one witre into 4 crimps seems horrendous
[13:26] <eroomde> i cannot possible imagine that would ever be allowed in any spec
[13:26] <Laurenceb> huh?
[13:26] <Laurenceb> one wire into 4 crimps? where?
[13:27] <mfa298> surely the first rule of end users and connectors is: whatever you do they'll find a way of doing the wrong thing. (example http://i.imgur.com/aV7kT.jpg)
[13:27] <eroomde> you said that to mea earlier
[13:27] <eroomde> i thought
[13:27] <Laurenceb> no
[13:27] <Laurenceb> i said the issue was there was no cover on the back to stick the cable into
[13:27] <Laurenceb> cable =========-----conductor
[13:28] <Laurenceb> conductor(s) even
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[13:28] <LeoBodnar> What is the problem with splitting the cable into separate wires?
[13:28] <Laurenceb> see the holes in the back of the plug? each one is for one conductor, so I end up with a rats nest of wires on the back of the plug
[13:28] <eroomde> oh
[13:28] <LeoBodnar> I have missed that point in the discussion
[13:28] <Laurenceb> veyr messy
[13:28] <eroomde> oh
[13:28] <Laurenceb> so im thinking a bit of printed plastic glued on the back
[13:29] <Laurenceb> to solve the issue
[13:29] <eroomde> i see
[13:29] <eroomde> well usually you can just get heatshrink boots
[13:29] <Laurenceb> or just a big lump and nylon + drill press :P
[13:29] <eroomde> i'd be very surprised if there wasn't a specific one to match that deutch range]
[13:29] <Laurenceb> s/amd/of
[13:29] <Laurenceb> arggg
[13:29] <eroomde> no
[13:29] <eroomde> that's horrible
[13:29] <Laurenceb> i cant type
[13:29] <eroomde> no hot glue, no electrical tape, none of that
[13:30] <eroomde> a proper adhesive-lined heatshrink boot :)
[13:30] <Laurenceb> oh id use superglue :P
[13:30] <eroomde> http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/wiring_ecu.html
[13:30] <Laurenceb> oh yeah, or that :P
[13:30] <eroomde> read and absorb that
[13:30] <LeoBodnar> Hmm I am lost
[13:30] <Laurenceb> ok
[13:30] <eroomde> hub electronics in the uk are the connector people
[13:30] <Laurenceb> heh thats the exact problem im trying to solve
[13:30] <Laurenceb> nice find
[13:30] <LeoBodnar> Is this not how all the connectors are made? Split the cable, crimp conductors, insert into the base
[13:30] <eroomde> thety'll be able to give you samples and tell you what boots or backshells you need for what connector
[13:30] <eroomde> they';re helpful
[13:30] <Laurenceb> ok
[13:30] <Laurenceb> thanks
[13:31] <eroomde> Laurenceb: this is basic cablemanship :)
[13:31] <Laurenceb> shows how little I know :D
[13:31] <eroomde> there is a craft to it but it's all well established, there are standard ways of doing all these things
[13:31] <LeoBodnar> check out buttons at the bottom
[13:32] <eroomde> which ones LeoBodnar ?
[13:32] <LeoBodnar> on that page http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/wiring_ecu.html
[13:33] <eroomde> which buttons - the hyperlinks?
[13:33] <Laurenceb> http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbo/wiring_pix/ww2_women02.jpg
[13:33] <Laurenceb> heh
[13:33] <eroomde> read the text too. it's good
[13:33] <Laurenceb> stages photo alert
[13:33] <Laurenceb> *d
[13:33] <eroomde> especially the thing about salt water
[13:33] <eroomde> that's scary]
[13:33] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:33] <Laurenceb> http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/turbo/wiring_pix/dr25_hall_atum.jpg
[13:34] <Laurenceb> that looks like exactly what i want to do
[13:34] <eroomde> yes
[13:34] <eroomde> an adhesive-lined heatshrink boot
[13:34] <Laurenceb> simple
[13:34] <eroomde> it's a very standard way to seal and strain releive the back of connectors
[13:34] <LeoBodnar> http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/eatshit.htm
[13:34] <daveake> lovely things
[13:35] <eroomde> Laurenceb: https://www.dropbox.com/s/pcanvln4or8970u/cutdowns.JPG
[13:35] <eroomde> look at the heap of cables on the right
[13:35] <Laurenceb> ah yeah
[13:35] <eroomde> those are amphenol 62GB circular conenctors, and i've put the correct adhesive-lined heatshrink boot on them
[13:36] <eroomde> i called hub electronics to ask them to send me the appropriate matching one for that connector
[13:36] <eroomde> was as easy as that
[13:36] <Laurenceb> i better get ordering the parts then :P
[13:36] <eroomde> they're good on the phone, seriously
[13:37] <Laurenceb> ok
[13:37] <eroomde> can just ask them to get the matching stuff for your connector, which can otherwise be a nightmare on the farnell website
[13:37] <Laurenceb> yeah
[13:39] <eroomde> they're also way cheaper than farnell prices, though they might be less happy about doing singles in a non-sample capacity
[13:39] <eroomde> but if you want 10, no probs
[13:39] <eroomde> but they do also do samples quite happily
[13:39] <eroomde> i got a bunch of Lemo M series from them gratis
[13:39] <Laurenceb> ok
[13:41] <Laurenceb> ah - this explains why the DTM connectors are only waterproof from the front
[13:41] <Laurenceb> everything makes sense :D
[13:41] <eroomde> lol
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[13:42] <Laurenceb> yeah looks like i need to ring - theres different adhesives and everything
[13:42] <Laurenceb> complex stuff
[13:42] <eroomde> what did I say rule 1 was?
[13:42] <Laurenceb> heh
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[13:42] <eroomde> 13:20 < eroomde> 1) it can all be complicated and confusing until someone shows you how to do it properly
[13:42] <Laurenceb> yup
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[13:43] <eroomde> so yep, give 'em a ring :)
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[14:03] <eroomde> i take back the rudeness about the st-supplied register-mapping thing
[14:03] <eroomde> that's not actually too bad
[14:03] <eroomde> i still definitely don't like the cmsis guff
[14:05] <eroomde> CLOCK_FACTORY_STRUCT->configure_the_oscillator_to_be_50_MHZ(I_HAVE_AN_EXTERNAL_CRYSTAL_THANKS)
[14:05] <eroomde> but the peripheral structs are ok
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[14:08] <Willdude123> In a system with absolutely no faults, would there be electrical noise on the ground? Could you sue it as an RF ground?
[14:09] <Willdude123> *use
[14:09] <eroomde> yes
[14:10] <eroomde> but that's a slightly contrived question
[14:10] <Willdude123> Why? Would you never have a fault free earth?
[14:11] <eroomde> don't be sloppy about mixing 'ground' and 'earth'
[14:12] <Willdude123> OK. I still don't really get the difference.
[14:12] <eroomde> no
[14:12] <eroomde> currents need return paths
[14:12] <Willdude123> Yeah
[14:12] <eroomde> it's much better to think about all this is terms of current loops
[14:13] <Willdude123> Right
[14:14] <cm13g09> eroomde: CMSIS = pain...
[14:14] <eroomde> yes
[14:14] <cm13g09> Helios-Reaper: knows all about that
[14:14] <eroomde> i'd rather just have register definitions
[14:14] <mfa298> I'd probably want to keep RF and electrical ground seperate - especially if there's any chance the antenna could be unbalanced.
[14:14] <eroomde> and the rest be up to me
[14:15] <mfa298> any slight issues in the ground connection and you could be putting RF onto cases of other earthed devices in the property (and RF isn't good)
[14:15] <eroomde> exactly
[14:15] <Willdude123> The people at the club, when I asked about RF grounding basically said get a balanced aerial
[14:15] <eroomde> you want to keep the current return path as close as possible to the thing that takes it out in the first place
[14:15] <eroomde> if it starts taking a different path it'll turn into an antenna
[14:16] <Willdude123> Right
[14:16] <eroomde> Willdude123: yes they're probabyl right
[14:16] <Willdude123> Yeah
[14:16] <Willdude123> I could get a long wire up
[14:16] <Willdude123> But that's a pain
[14:16] <eroomde> coax or ladder wire are both good for keeping the rturn path close to the outward path
[14:18] <mfa298> if you've got a balanced antenna then there should be little need for an RF ground.
[14:18] <Willdude123> Yeah
[14:18] <mfa298> as I said earlier stay away from long wires until you have a better idea of what you're doing.
[14:19] <mfa298> Even fairly low powers can lead to high RF voltages on the radio kit.
[14:20] <Willdude123> It's quit
[14:21] <Willdude123> It's quite difficult to get into my bedroom (no pun intended) so I'll have to talk to my dad about how to get the feed in
[14:22] <mfa298> for HF you can get away with something like RG58 which isn't that big
[14:22] <Willdude123> Yeah, but coming in through a window is not possible and I have an awkward house
[14:23] <mfa298> through the eaves (or similar) and through the ceiling might not be too hard.
[14:23] <gonzo__> up into loft and out under the eaves?
[14:23] <mfa298> snap
[14:24] <gonzo__> snap
[14:24] <gonzo__> not sure who won that hand?
[14:25] <mfa298> let's just claim it as great minds think alike :)
[14:25] <gonzo__> a 5mm hole through a window frame is not much. You can fill it with some sealant later if req, won't even be seen
[14:25] <gonzo__> Baaaa....
[14:25] <Willdude123> RG58 is thicker than 5mm isn't it?
[14:26] <mfa298> or if it's upvc you might find you can remove some of the surround and there's a suitable gap you can use.
[14:26] <gonzo__> at HF you could even make a sort of flexi pcb to shut in an opening window
[14:26] <daveake> RG58 is 5mm
[14:27] <gonzo__> a flexi would not really be shielded, or if it is, not 50R, but for HF you would get away with i
[14:27] <gonzo__> t
[14:28] <mfa298> for HF you might even get away with RG174 and that can be shut in the window (that's what I'm using for my TV antenna at the moment)
[14:28] <gonzo__> there are may ways around problems. Which is half of what AR is. Compromising and working with what's avail
[14:29] <gonzo__> I was thinking similar, but using PTFE versions. As it's a bit more robust
[14:30] <mfa298> I'm not sure what the power handling capability of RG174 is (either before or after being shut in a window)
[14:31] <mfa298> but I'd imagine 10W wouldn't be a problem
[14:33] <daveake> http://www.therfc.com/powerrat.htm#RG174
[14:34] <daveake> Short answer - 10W isn't a problem :)
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[14:34] <mfa298> even after it's been squashed and bent around a window :)
[14:35] <daveake> :)
[14:36] <mfa298> loss looks to be under 2dB/10m for RG174 for under 50MHz (half that at 10MHz) so 10-20m of it wont be too bad - but you could always just make the rg174 a short length and use something a bit better once outside.
[14:37] <gonzo__> upvc frames can close with quite big gaps
[14:37] <mfa298> and there are plenty of ways to get something as small as rg174 from inside to outside
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[14:39] <mfa298> I found with my upvc windows the inner part has a squashy rubber seal. and there's a couple of holes inside the frame to outside to allow water to drain out (which rg174 can fit through quite nicely)
[14:40] <daveake> Something nice about the 4x4 for chasing is that all the doors have double seals, so no chance of any rain getting in even with RG174 everywhere
[14:41] <mfa298> I could even get rg174 with the braid folded back covered in heatshrink through the holes (basic sleve dipole)
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[14:45] <gonzo__> unless it's a landrover, where the rain gets in everywhere else
[14:45] <gonzo__> I've spent months chasing leaks
[14:46] <gonzo__> think that's why the old std landrovers rotted the doors bottoms out. It was a design feature, to let the water out!
[14:48] <daveake> hah
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[15:19] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[15:23] <DL1SGP2> hi kevin
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[15:24] <nats`> ohh my god
[15:24] <nats`> we have worst guy in Paris than in london
[15:24] <nats`> they blocked the subway this morning because someone forgot a sample of pure cyanide in the subway -_-
[15:24] <nats`> he was going to work with that
[15:25] <cm13g09> nats`: lol
[15:25] <eroomde> nice
[15:25] <cm13g09> wonderfuk
[15:25] <cm13g09> *ful
[15:25] <nats`> the guy work in the metal industry
[15:26] <nats`> and was like that's normal if I have that on me in the subway
[15:26] <nats`> -_-
[15:26] <cm13g09> Although I have to admit the concrete at Victoria last night was pretty special
[15:26] <DL1SGP2> I have a friend who worked in the nuclear power plant of Flamanville, I do not wanna know what he had in his bags then :D
[15:27] <nats`> cm13g09 they managed to remove it ?
[15:27] <nats`> DL1SGP2 you know homer simpsons ?!
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[15:27] <DL1SGP2> biensur nats` :P
[15:28] <x-f> nats`, i had the same in my mind :)
[15:28] <nats`> :D
[15:28] <DL1SGP2> la taille du ventre de mon ami qui travaillait a Flamanville etait presque la meme du Homer Simpson :D
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[15:30] <eroomde> je pense que on devrait stay in english where possible so that the largest number of people can understand what's going on in the channel
[15:30] <nats`> :D
[15:30] <nats`> he just said that his friend seems like homer simpsons :)
[15:30] <DL1SGP2> true :P translating the rather nice french to plain english: the guy I know was almost as fat as Homer :P
[15:30] <eroomde> yes i understood :)
[15:31] <nats`> anyway funky story so this morning I could have found a AuCN package to do experiments :D
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[15:32] <DL1SGP2> hehe, experiments rock
[15:32] <Willdude123> eroomde: I've been doing French for 3 years.
[15:32] <Willdude123> I don't know what you said
[15:33] <cm13g09> nats`: Apparently they started running a service today!
[15:33] <cm13g09> I'm impressed
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[15:33] <nats`> oO
[15:33] <nats`> they do the traffic manually ? :D
[15:33] <eroomde> Willdude123: i think that one should
[15:33] <eroomde> should probably be qu'on instead of que on
[15:33] <cm13g09> nats`: they may have being doing point-to-point working
[15:33] <eroomde> but i don't speak modern colloquial french
[15:34] <eroomde> i just have a french dad
[15:34] <Willdude123> I'm in set 1 for French and I have no idea how to say most things I need to
[15:34] <Willdude123> But I can say my hair is blonde
[15:34] <Willdude123> *blond
[15:34] <eroomde> learning a language in a classroom seems like a massive waste of time
[15:34] <eroomde> just go there for 6 months
[15:34] <eroomde> equivalent to 6 years of school study
[15:35] <DL1SGP2> agreed
[15:35] <nats`> eroomde that's itneresting if you want to do pure linguistic studies
[15:35] <Willdude123> Duolingo is the best :P
[15:35] <nats`> I mean litteratur etc...
[15:35] <eroomde> sure yes
[15:35] <eroomde> but not at schoolboy level
[15:35] <eroomde> just to have a working fluency
[15:35] <Lunar_LanderU> Homer also was the guy who wrote down the Ulysses stuff
[15:35] <nats`> yep and in fact most of people who learnt french in the school speak a "better" french than me
[15:35] <Lunar_LanderU> xD
[15:36] <eroomde> being able to read another language comes much sooner than being able to speak it well, at least in my case
[15:36] <eroomde> i'm fine reading french novels, mostly
[15:36] <eroomde> but i could never write one
[15:36] <nats`> same for me :)
[15:36] <eroomde> or speak with that level of fluency
[15:36] <nats`> + french is a really specific case
[15:37] <nats`> we have more exception to the rules than rules
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[15:37] <eroomde> yes
[15:37] <eroomde> french is especially annoying with your funny historic forms
[15:37] <eroomde> but generally
[15:39] <Laurenceb> interesting http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/DM00044913.pdf
[15:39] <Laurenceb> thats approaching max-21000 in performance
[15:39] <Laurenceb> slightly more noise and a tad more drifty
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[15:47] <cm13g09> afternoon chrisstubbs
[15:49] <chrisstubbs> howdy
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[15:50] <Lunar_LanderU> hello chrisstubbs
[15:50] <chrisstubbs> Just a flying visit, I really need to remove hydraIRC from startup on my PC, this must get annoying :P
[15:52] <Lunar_LanderU> oh
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[16:25] <gonzo__> if anyone down on the south coast is looking for a foundation course, apparently our club has a couple of spaces, /23rd feb
[16:26] <gonzo__> 22/23rd
[16:27] <eroomde> where abouts on the south coast?
[16:28] <gonzo__> poole, dorsetshire
[16:29] <gonzo__> training@frars.org.uk is anyone wants to enquire
[16:31] <mfa298> failing that it must be a month since craag ran an exam for the Uni club so they must be due another set of exams soon :p
[16:31] <gonzo__> full licence?
[16:32] <gonzo__> or foundation exam part?
[16:32] <mfa298> I think the Uni club do all levels as an when they need to.
[16:32] <mfa298> so mostly foundation but also intermediate / Full.
[16:33] <gonzo__> I suggested that there may be a need for an intensive course, the assessment bits of F and I and the full exam, all in one hit
[16:33] <gonzo__> they didn't seem to like that idea
[16:34] <gonzo__> we do have full exams, don't run a course though
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[16:34] <gonzo__> just started doing the intermediate courses, but for member only at the mo
[16:35] <mfa298> At least for the Uni most of the people interested *should* have some idea of how to study stuff on their own. I think the main stuff that has to be done is the practical and exams.
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[16:35] <gonzo__> for many, it's just a box ticking ex. (not a multi guess reference )
[16:36] <gonzo__> I still recon that it should be poss to just do an exam level without having to work up
[16:37] <mfa298> some of the requirements do seem a little silly at times, Hello Mr. Electronic Engineering student, Can you show me you know what a resistor is and how to solder it onto some stripboard.
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[16:38] <number10> you can take just the exams and practicals by self study at CUWS
[16:38] <mfa298> Agreed. I hope that when the consultations come out properly there's some reference to that in them (that seemed to be something almost everyone agreed on in the litmus test)
[16:38] <gonzo__> I put that case too
[16:39] <mfa298> number10: I think that's pretty much what the soton uni club does as well. I think some normal clubs insist on courses as it's a way to make money.
[16:40] <gonzo__> the bit abnout getting people to progress I recon is not a licencing thing. It's the need for clubs to show more of what is out there, rather than the HF rag chew is everything
[16:40] <gonzo__> I think our club makes abot a tenner for two days
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[16:42] <mfa298> agreed on that. I wish when I started out I had known that there was more to 2m/70cm than just FM. I might have done a bit more radio before having a break then (having found 2m fm not that interesting in the early 00's and having not managed to do much cw or get into HF)
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[16:43] <eroomde> yeah, talking about nothing to other men is just not going to bring people in anymore
[16:44] <gonzo__> about once a yr I listen on HF and within 30sec I'm ranting at the radio, and that's me done with it
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[16:45] <mfa298> and talking about your various medical conditions even less so (to follow on from eroomde)
[16:45] <gonzo__> over the last few yrs, HAB rxing has been about 95% of my radio
[16:45] <gonzo__> hehe, the 80mtrs day centre
[16:45] <WillTablet> How do I connect an rf ground to my vertical (it's a 3/4 wave on 70cm so needs one)?
[16:45] <gonzo__> gardens, green houses and who has dies
[16:45] <gonzo__> d
[16:45] <gonzo__> is it a mobile antenna?
[16:46] <WillTablet> No, mounted to a mast
[16:46] <WillTablet> Coax fed
[16:46] <mikestir> you don't need an rf ground for 70cm. the inductance of the ground wire would render it useless at that frequency anyway
[16:46] <gonzo__> just a few bits of stiff wire connected to the coax braid
[16:46] <mfa298> if it's a uhf vertical is probably has radials at the bottom which give an artificial rf ground
[16:47] <gonzo__> like a HAB 1/4 wave groundplane, just the right way up
[16:48] <WillTablet> Doesnt
[16:48] <WillTablet> It doesn't have any radials
[16:48] <mfa298> the only place you might have a connection to a physical ground connector is if you've got a lightning arrestor in the coax (in which case that will have a connection on the side to connect to your beefy ground spike)
[16:48] <gonzo__> if you make the radials about 1/4 for 2mtrs (50cm ish) then you can probably use the ant on 2mtrs too. (As a 3/4 at 70 == 1/4 at 2)
[16:48] <mikestir> it may rely on the mast as a counterpoise
[16:48] <WillTablet> No radials gonzo__
[16:49] <WillTablet> Well, its a maldol vt 120d
[16:49] <gonzo__> is it a camercial ant?
[16:49] <gonzo__> commercial
[16:49] <WillTablet> Yah
[16:49] <mfa298> If there aren't radials it might be a design that feeds part way up the radiating element so is suitably balanced
[16:49] <gonzo__> post a make/part num
[16:49] <WillTablet> http://www.locuradigital.com/en/dual_band_antennas/base_antennas/images/vt-120d_maldol.htm
[16:50] <gonzo__> (could have a sleve counterpoise)
[16:50] <mfa298> unless it tells you to add a counterpoise of some sort you should be able to just connect the coax
[16:50] <WillTablet> Wait no its a 5/8th wave
[16:51] <gonzo__> the mounting instructions don't say it needs gp
[16:51] <WillTablet> Okay then
[16:52] <gonzo__> dual band ant, nice
[16:52] <mfa298> stick it up, borrow a suitable swr meter, tx and check for low swr over the band(s)
[16:53] <gonzo__> the std white stick antennas don't normally need any extrs GP. If they have them they are part of the kit, usually steel rods that screw into the base
[16:54] <mfa298> I think the answer is on the instructions: FEATURES 1) WIDE VERTEX is designed so that the use of radials is no longer needed.
[16:54] <WillTablet> "std white stick antenna" I've never seen a white stick with an STD
[16:54] <WillTablet> *antenna
[16:55] <WillTablet> Oh standard right
[16:55] <WillTablet> Need some rope though
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[17:02] <mikestir> I keep hearing continuous data on 2m. sounds like maybe 9k6 packet except for the lack of breaks. anyone got any idea what that might be?
[17:02] <aadamson> your ethernet switch maybe :) ... lol
[17:03] <mikestir> naa that's in the airband
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[17:50] <eroomde> i ahve a match this evening
[17:51] <Laurenceb> match.com?
[17:51] <eroomde> i can't wield ascii sufficiently well to represent just how much playing for two hours in a match is so far from having a bottle of wine with a friend
[17:51] <eroomde> in terms of what i want to be doping
[17:51] <eroomde> doing*
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[17:55] <Benny_boy> evening all
[17:56] <eroomde> hello Benny_boy
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[17:57] <SP3OSJ> #habhub
[17:57] <Benny_boy> I'm looking into doing a launch but using hydrogen gas instead. I'm aware of the risks of involved and have a plan for mitigating these risks as much as possible. My query is, do people think it's worth the hassle?
[17:58] <daveake> Not for 1 launch, no
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[17:58] <Benny_boy> because of the hassle getting the extra bits like flame arresters etc?
[17:59] <daveake> You don't need those
[17:59] <daveake> But you do need a regulator
[17:59] <daveake> which is more than the cost of the helium you could have used
[17:59] <Benny_boy> I assume that includes hiring the regulator.
[18:00] <eroomde> if you can rent the stuff for the same cost, it might be worth doing He, if the only cost difference is in the gasses
[18:01] <daveake> In the UK, rented helium is supplied with regulator/valve; H2 isn't. Also for H2 you have to have an account with a supplier first.
[18:02] <Willdude123> What would happen if someone purposefully detonated H2 at very high altitude?
[18:02] <Willdude123> Would it be the same kind of eqplosion you get on the ground?
[18:02] <Benny_boy> no
[18:03] <Willdude123> Is there anything that says you can't purposefully blow up the balloon?
[18:03] <Benny_boy> assuming you're talking about 40km approx, its 1% atmospheric pressure up there
[18:03] <Benny_boy> so less oxygen to oxidise teh hydrogen
[18:04] <Benny_boy> propably just a pop as teh pressure releases
[18:04] <daveake> Not enough oxygen to do anything significant
[18:04] <mattbrejza> well the density of O2 would be the same as the density of the hydrogen, but the surface aera:volume ratio would be much reduced
[18:04] <Benny_boy> anyway, no H2 for me then
[18:04] <Willdude123> right
[18:05] <mattbrejza> (im assuming the % of O2 is constant with altitude)
[18:06] <eroomde> Willdude123: detonation has a specific technical meaning
[18:06] <eroomde> and you're misusing it
[18:06] <eroomde> might make an interesting wiki read though ;)
[18:07] <Benny_boy> why would you want to detonate it anyway?
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[18:10] <eroomde> Benny_boy: who knows
[18:10] <eroomde> i do actually detonate quite a lot of hydrogen
[18:11] <eroomde> but not in balloon form
[18:11] <Laurenceb> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eFp2Gg3cyTo
[18:11] <Willdude123> Detonation involves a supersonic exothermic front accelerating through a medium that eventually drives a shock front propagating directly in front of it.
[18:12] <eroomde> Willdude123: correct
[18:12] <Benny_boy> I can see why that is fun, but I'm just not sure why someone would do it at 30km. It's not like you can see it or hear it
[18:12] <eroomde> so you'd want a very well pre-mixed hydrogen/oxygen system
[18:12] <eroomde> which a balloon isn't
[18:13] <Willdude123> eroomde: good, I hoped wikipedia would be
[18:13] <Benny_boy> If a balloon pops at 35km, does it make a sound...... ;)
[18:14] <mattbrejza> well yea it travels down the cord to your box and your camera's microphone :P
[18:14] <eroomde> just about still :)
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[18:28] <jcoxon> evening all
[18:29] <gb73d> Hiya
[18:29] <eroomde> no
[18:29] <eroomde> i mean, hiya
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[18:30] <gb73d> hi eroom
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[18:32] <gb73d> whats the highest legal height you can deploy a helikite without CAA permission or other regs?
[18:33] <gb73d> and does it apply if you deploy from a hilltop location pse?
[18:33] <eroomde> it's almost always above-ground-level for that kind of thing
[18:34] <eroomde> i'm afriad i don't know to hand, if you call Sandy Allsopp he'll be able to tell you
[18:34] <gb73d> ok thanks
[18:34] <eroomde> i know that deployment heights of hundreds of feet are quite normal
[18:35] <mattbrejza> max 60m for tethered balloon/kite without notam
[18:35] <gb73d> is that vertical height or length of tether ?
[18:35] <mattbrejza> well assuming kite is the same as for balloon
[18:35] <eroomde> it's always heigh AGL
[18:36] <eroomde> height*
[18:36] <eroomde> no regulations of tether length, so long as you abey the AGL limit
[18:36] <gb73d> so how do you know how high it is ?
[18:36] <mattbrejza> ref: http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=33&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=4409
[18:36] <eroomde> well if you don't know then it would probably be considered reckless to deploy it with a tether longer than the limit :)
[18:36] <eroomde> you could put a gps or pressure sensor onboard though
[18:37] <mattbrejza> http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf is the best source for the regs though
[18:37] <eroomde> but i'd recommend talking to Sandy too
[18:37] <gb73d> i see 60m tether to be on the safe side
[18:37] <eroomde> if there are ways to get exemptions, he'll know
[18:37] <eroomde> well, i wouldn't just give up like that
[18:38] <eroomde> i'd call call Sandy to see what he says
[18:38] <mattbrejza> or you can ask for a notam if >60m
[18:38] <eroomde> (yes it might just be a question of getting a notam)
[18:39] <gb73d> well 30m would be enuff for an HF antenna
[18:39] <eroomde> ah right yes, if it's just for an antenna then yes
[18:39] <gb73d> thanks
[18:39] <eroomde> i think i confused you for a sec with the chap doing cansat drops
[18:39] <eroomde> for whom it'd be worth fighting for a slightly higher alt
[18:40] <gb73d> i found out about helikites from that cansat thread
[18:40] <mattbrejza> btw the limit if 30m if within an aerodrome traffic zone
[18:40] <mattbrejza> *is
[18:40] <eroomde> yeah the kits are very solid
[18:40] <eroomde> all-weather hoisting
[18:40] <gb73d> so i shoud not worry of its below 30m
[18:40] <mattbrejza> http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.pdf pg 137 says no
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[18:41] <gb73d> they are so stable it would be a lot of fun to deploy one carrying a wire
[18:41] <eroomde> yep
[18:42] <eroomde> right gtg
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[19:07] <craag> mfa298: Next exams are next week for us :)
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[19:07] <craag> A few foundations and advanceds.
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[19:20] <DL1SGP1> Willkommen zurueck Kevin
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> hallo
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> danke :)
[19:20] <Lunar_Lander> and hello xD
[19:21] <DL1SGP1> hello xD
[19:23] <SpeedEvil> I see no reason that a stochiometrically filled balloon at altitude shouldn't go bang very efficiently.
[19:23] <SpeedEvil> And have excellent coupling to the air.
[19:24] <SpeedEvil> (do not do this)
[19:25] Action: DL1SGP1 links things that produce bangs
[19:26] <mfa298> craag: and I was purely guessing at that based on the previous few months!
[19:27] <SpeedEvil> In principle, it may couple unusually to the atmosphere - due to reduced velocity - and be audible for a very, very long distance.
[19:27] <DL1SGP1> even better :)
[19:27] Action: SpeedEvil notes that his uu key is broken. This isannoying.
[19:27] <WillTablet> Some parts of amateur radio are really confusing me
[19:28] <DL1SGP1> like?
[19:28] Nick change: DL1SGP1 -> DL1SGP
[19:29] <WillTablet> Earthing/grounding/whatever the difference is
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[19:29] <WillTablet> Like as an unbalanced aerial, why does it not need an RF earth!
[19:29] <WillTablet> *?
[19:30] <mfa298> WillTablet: it depends on the type of antenna. On a long wire the Ground it part of the antenna.
[19:31] <mfa298> for a dipole and VHF/UHF verticals you don't as the antenna has two parts (rf wise)
[19:31] <WillTablet> Two parts?
[19:31] <WillTablet> What's the second part
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[19:32] <mfa298> for a vertical it could be a dipole inside, or you have a vertical with radials (like the wiki hab antenna)
[19:33] <mfa298> electrically some antennas are a single piece of wire, but RF wise where the centre and braid of the coax makes a difference.
[19:33] <WillTablet> It says 5/8th wave X 2
[19:34] <mfa298> some verticals might be using part of the coax as the counterpoise (which isn't ideal but can work)
[19:34] <WillTablet> And just half wave on 2m
[19:34] <WillTablet> So should I care how the aerial works?
[19:35] <mfa298> for a comercial antenna then it's probably not worrying too much how it works. If you're building one then you might want to learn how the design works.
[19:35] <mfa298> although for comercial antennas you might want to make sure it's no snake oil (some comercial HF antennas aren't much more than a dummy load)
[19:48] <natrium42> balloons shipped whee
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[19:49] <SpeedEvil> The most confusing bit is that ground is a lie.
[19:50] <SpeedEvil> The only thing that matters is differential voltages - and the earth is not made from a superconductor that transmits electricity infinitely fast.
[19:51] <SpeedEvil> In general, all antennas that rely on 'ground planes' really rely on the local capacitance beteeen the ground plane and the antenna to do their thing.
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[19:52] <SpeedEvil> If the ground plane is 'big enough' - that its capacitance to ground (in this case the earth) is large enough, its voltage varies little, and the antennas voltage varies a lot.
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> Do not expect to understand this properly.
[19:52] <mfa298> I was wondering whether to use an analogy of the feed point being like a battery, for the circuit to work you need something connected to both sides, That could be the two sides of a dipole, or a long wire and ground spikes (note multiple)
[19:52] <SpeedEvil> But you can get useful 'rules of thumb' that help you in many situations.
[19:53] Action: mfa298 suspects WillTablet is off looking at something else now and not seeing this good advice.
[19:53] <SpeedEvil> Ground spikes and similar structures are basically hoping that you can approximate the earth as a spherical superconductor.
[19:54] <SpeedEvil> Some times, it is valid to do that.
[19:56] <mfa298> ground spikes with good interconnections would probably help if you're doing a long wire antenna as it will give a better interface to the earth (although some metal counterpoise would be good with that). Personally I'd go with something more like a dipole / loop where you don't need to worry about the quality of the earth.
[19:57] <SpeedEvil> Once you get above 50MHz or so - the size of even a 'proper' dipole gets into the tractable range.
[19:58] <SpeedEvil> At much over that, yagis become not insane.
[20:01] <WillTablet> mfa298: oh sorry tablet was off while my dad was talking about his crazy theory that Germany is a military threat
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[20:03] <mfa298> WillTablet: did you grab a copy of the ARRL antenna book when Hix has shared links to it in the past ?
[20:03] <mfa298> that may well be worth getting a copy of and havign a read
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[20:05] <WillTablet> Not sure I saw those
[20:05] <WillTablet> Might do
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[20:48] <Willdude123> mfw I signed off a reddit post with 73
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[21:34] <Laurenceb_> MCX connectors are likely to be more vibration resistant than SMA right?
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[21:38] <Laurenceb_> im thinking sma connector nut is going to come undone by itself
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[21:48] <mfa298> I'd have thought a well done up sma should struggle to come un-done.
[21:48] <Laurenceb_> this is for vehicle installation
[21:49] <mfa298> you may want to consider what the signal is for - you might only get something like RG174 into an MCX connector
[21:50] <mfa298> my experience is that they're also a bit of a pain to crimp
[21:50] <Laurenceb_> its for GPS
[21:50] <Laurenceb_> i think ill try MCX as antennis are available off the shelf
[21:51] <Laurenceb_> however you spell it
[21:52] <mfa298> if you can get ready done active antennas then it could work
[21:56] <mfa298> depending on space the other way to go is bnc.
[21:57] <jcoxon> mfa298, isn't the freq to high for bnc?
[21:58] <mfa298> I thought BNC was good for a few GHz
[21:58] Action: mfa298 goes to check
[21:58] <mikestir> tnc is - I think bnc suffers from the bayonet acting as a slot radiator
[21:58] <mfa298> wikipedia suggests 0-4GHz for BNC
[22:00] <mikestir> I wonder if SMB would be more vibration resistant than SMA?
[22:00] <jcoxon> i remember being told that it wasn't great for UHF etc yet was used all the time
[22:00] <mikestir> jcoxon: that sounds more like PL259
[22:01] <jcoxon> oh maybe
[22:01] <mikestir> that gets used all the time on ham equipment up to 70cm but it doesn't have a constant impedance over about 100MHz iirc
[22:01] <mfa298> yeah, pl259 / so239 is the one to really stay away from (banana plug with a shield)
[22:02] <jcoxon> :-)
[22:02] <jcoxon> right night all
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[22:03] <mfa298> with the cheap pl259's where you seperate the braid through a window in the side I'm not sure I'd trust it to have a constant impedance below 100Mhz either
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[22:04] <mikestir> I solder those by keeping the braid formed, tinning it and soldering it through the holes
[22:04] <mikestir> that should be a bit of an improvement
[22:04] <mikestir> compression N type ftw, however
[22:06] <LeoBodnar> BNC might be bad for TX at >1GHz as it will radiate harmonics but RX should be no problem possibly
[22:06] <mfa298> when I do use PL259 I usually get ones which are described as "deluxe pl259" which are similar to the compression versions of N/BNC etc.
[22:06] <LeoBodnar> /speculation
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> but no off the shelf BNC GPS antenna
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> MCX time
[22:07] <Laurenceb_> so ill stick a bulkhead MCX into the top end of that auto enclosure thing
[22:08] <Laurenceb_> still wondering if i could run 480Mbps USB through the 12 way plug
[22:08] <Laurenceb_> that would make syncing the data easier
[22:08] <Laurenceb_> USB - PHY - STM32F4 - SDIO
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[22:26] <mikestir> ughh back to work on monday
[22:26] <fsphil> oi, it's still friday :p
[22:27] <mikestir> i've hardly been in since before christmas :)
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[22:29] <fsphil> aaah
[22:29] <mikestir> I know I'm going back in to a rather unpleasant ESD related issue though
[22:29] <fsphil> so it'll be like a monday, only worse
[22:30] <mikestir> I suppose I could liven it up by zapping my colleagues with the esd simulator
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[22:39] <S_Mark> whats the ideal shift and baud rate for ssdv on the pi?
[22:42] <mfa298> most people seem to use 300baud - some have used 600baud
[22:42] <mfa298> shift >=baud
[22:43] <Willdude123> Mfw I came across an absolutely ingenious quote that is a little NSFW to use in my history homework
[22:44] <mattbrejza> shift = n.baud, where n is a postive integer S_Mark
[22:45] <mfa298> if you want to experiment aiming for a shift of 600 should work with 300 or 600 baud happily
[22:46] <S_Mark> ok thanks guys. mattbrejza can you explain a little further
[22:46] <S_Mark> shift 600 = n.600?
[22:46] <LeoBodnar> Laurenceb: The raw navigation message of the SBAS contains 500 bits. These raw data are ½ convolutional encoded with a FEC code, which means that 250 bits of information are available every second at user level.
[22:47] <LeoBodnar> does this mean that bits are 2x PRNs long?
[22:47] <mattbrejza> if your baud is 300 then choose either 300,600,900,etc for the shift
[22:47] <S_Mark> ahh ok, havent seen that notification before
[22:47] <S_Mark> notation!
[22:48] <qyx_> Laurenceb_: what are you doing with those heavy connectors and usb2?
[22:48] <mattbrejza> yea i used '.' instead of '*' for some reason
[22:48] <S_Mark> lol makes sense now, thank you
[22:49] <qyx_> hm, speaking of shifts
[22:49] <qyx_> has anyone attempted to use msk?
[22:49] <mattbrejza> dont think so
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[23:12] <Laurenceb_> qyx_: vehicle "black box"
[23:12] <Laurenceb_> qyx_: CAN + GPS + IMU -> SD card
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[23:13] <qyx_> uhm
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[23:50] <Laurenceb_> LeoBodnar: I think so, yeah
[23:53] <Laurenceb_> attn eroomde: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFp2Gg3cyTo
[00:00] --- Sat Jan 25 2014