highaltitude.log.20140119

[00:00] <ibanezmatt13> gosh I get tired so easily. Off to sleep, catch you later :)
[00:01] <WillTablet> I don't blame you
[00:01] <WillTablet> Its midnight
[00:02] <ibanezmatt13> yes it is. I never stay up this late :P, right off now, bb
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[00:18] <steve_2e0vet> hi all does anyone know how to get the 0603 devices into the eagle library
[00:19] <adwiens> what kind of 0603 devices? resistors, capacitors, etc are built in
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[00:19] <steve_2e0vet> just the basic res & caps, would you know which library it is
[00:19] <qyx_> steve_2e0vet: they are in rcl > r-eu, c-eu, l-eu
[00:20] <steve_2e0vet> thanks qyx_
[00:20] <steve_2e0vet> just running through some eagle tutorials
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[07:34] <x-f> good morning, icicles, -18C
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[07:35] <x-f> what happened to PSB?
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[07:58] <x-f> PSBHF appeared on the map at 19km altitude
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[10:15] <nats`> hi
[10:15] <nats`> hey arm fanboyz
[10:16] <nats`> someone knows a debugger supporting the SWD protocol
[10:16] <nats`> my ULINK2 doesn't seem too
[10:22] <mikestir> stlinkv2. I _think_ openocd supports swd on any vendor's devices with it
[10:22] <mikestir> there is certainly preliminary support in there
[10:22] <mikestir> or there's an swd adapter for the olimex arm ocd
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[10:25] <ibanezmatt13> something really bizarre is going on here. DMM leads right way round, I'm getting a negative voltage where I should have a positive...not good
[10:26] <ibanezmatt13> http://sdrv.ms/19EijCK
[10:26] <nats`> oky mikestir I'll try I have a gecko devboard maybe I can use the swd debuger on it
[10:27] <mikestir> ibanezmatt13: what's that meant to do?
[10:28] <ibanezmatt13> the long lines represent 25m of wire. I need to some how just get 5v out of that 7805 to turn a relay board on
[10:28] <ibanezmatt13> Loosing a lot of voltage in the cable
[10:28] <ibanezmatt13> so wondered what a transistor would do
[10:29] <ibanezmatt13> I've soldered it on and I'm getting a -ve voltage and really confused :P
[10:29] <mikestir> blow up in that config :)
[10:29] <fsphil> hah
[10:29] <fsphil> wrong kind of fire
[10:29] <mikestir> the fire button is rather literal :)
[10:30] <ibanezmatt13> damn, I'd better turn it off
[10:30] <nats`> ibanezmatt13 what the expected current in your 25m cable ?
[10:30] <ibanezmatt13> there's a golden tint on my transistor... erm, not sure, I just needed enough to turn the flaming 7805 on
[10:30] <ibanezmatt13> musn't be getting enough
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[10:31] <ibanezmatt13> sounds like you've spotted a big problem anyway :)
[10:31] <mikestir> apart from the exploding led, taking the transistor out should be ok
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[10:31] <mikestir> assuming 7805 in the right way
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[10:32] <ibanezmatt13> but the LED isn't exploding...
[10:32] <ibanezmatt13> it's 12v rated too
[10:33] <mikestir> built in resistor then so ok
[10:33] <ibanezmatt13> yep
[10:33] <ibanezmatt13> But, I'm not even pressing the fire button and I'm getting -12v ish out of the transistor
[10:33] <ibanezmatt13> I think
[10:33] <mikestir> hang on I'll help some more in a sec - baby screaming
[10:33] <ibanezmatt13> np
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[10:34] <ibanezmatt13> The 7805 circuit works as I've injected +12v into the VIN line and I got +5v out and the relay flicked shut. It's getting the +5v out from the 7805 but from 25m away that's the issue, and is causing lots of strange issues
[10:36] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> You have the Emitter on the TIP31A earthed but no other connecton is earthed ?
[10:37] <mikestir> I was assuming that was connected to battery -ve, right?
[10:37] <ibanezmatt13> yes sorry
[10:37] <ibanezmatt13> I just didn't wanna draw a line across other lines, earth is basically batt -ve
[10:38] <mikestir> so what are the values of those capacitors?
[10:38] <ibanezmatt13> those are fine as it worked with the 12v test. 10uF on the input, and a 1uF and 0.1uF on the output
[10:38] <mikestir> ok
[10:38] <mikestir> in the diagram it shows two caps on the output side
[10:38] <mikestir> is that a mistake?
[10:39] <ibanezmatt13> no, there are two caps on the output
[10:39] <ibanezmatt13> a 1uF and then a 0.1uF
[10:39] <mikestir> oh sorry I wasn't reading properly
[10:39] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[10:39] <mikestir> I'd always use a 100nF both sides of a 7805
[10:39] <mikestir> then the 10uF is fine for something battery powered
[10:40] <mikestir> the 1uF on the output is probably not that important
[10:40] <ibanezmatt13> I'll shove another one on later. But if I inject 12v into the 7805 vin line, I do get 5v out and the relay does shut. So there's something not right before that stage I think
[10:40] <mikestir> do you know the coil resistance for your relay?
[10:41] <ibanezmatt13> I don't
[10:41] <mikestir> do you have a part number?
[10:41] <ibanezmatt13> yes one sec
[10:41] <ibanezmatt13> it's not just a relay
[10:41] <ibanezmatt13> I'll show you
[10:41] <ibanezmatt13> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11042
[10:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> When you hit the fire button then the transistor is shorting the output from the 7805 then ?
[10:42] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> and nothing to limit the curent into the base of the transistor ?
[10:42] <ibanezmatt13> I'm not sure. Is there something I should try with the multimeter?
[10:42] <mikestir> yeah the transistor is just plain wrong - take it out
[10:42] <mikestir> you won't need it
[10:43] <mikestir> first thing to do is have some idea of what current your load is drawing
[10:43] <ibanezmatt13> so I should test the current from the batt
[10:43] <mikestir> no - you should determine it during the design stage from the datasheets
[10:43] <mikestir> I'm just looking that up for you now
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[10:44] <ibanezmatt13> right thanks. I'll have a look at the diagram see if I can get my head round it
[10:44] <mikestir> ok there are two versions of that relay and the biggest has a coil current of 200mA for the 5V version
[10:44] <mikestir> the circuit on the sparkfun board will add a bit, but it's negligible
[10:45] <ibanezmatt13> ok
[10:45] <mikestir> so because the 7805 is a linear regulator your current in the wire is the same
[10:45] <Laurenceb_> hi folks
[10:45] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Why the regulator just use a resistor ?
[10:45] <mikestir> and you dissipate (12-5) * 200mA = 1.4W in the regulator
[10:46] <mikestir> which means you will definitely need that on a heatsink
[10:46] <mikestir> (and what Geoff-G8DHE-M said)
[10:46] <ibanezmatt13> right... good point
[10:46] <mikestir> but this is still a good design exercise anyway
[10:46] <ibanezmatt13> oh god how overkill I could just shove a darn resistor in. Yes it is mikestir definitely
[10:46] <mikestir> you could have just used a 12V coil relay
[10:47] <ibanezmatt13> yes I could, I was just making use of the opne I have save me buying one... thought it'd be easy :P
[10:47] <ibanezmatt13> ok so I can try replacing all that circuitry for the 7805 with the right resistor
[10:48] <mikestir> indeed, but sticking with that for now, it should all work fine if you get rid of that transistor
[10:48] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> you roughly want to half the voltage if you use the 5v relay
[10:48] <mikestir> where are you measuring -12V?
[10:48] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> so just use a resistor the same value as the coil resistance
[10:48] <x-f> es5nhc, you around?
[10:48] <ibanezmatt13> erm, positive lead on the transistor base, -ve lead on GND
[10:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> you don't need transistor or regulator
[10:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> just a resistor in series with Fire switch to relay
[10:49] <ibanezmatt13> yes I've just realised... damn :P
[10:49] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> no capacitors either
[10:49] <ibanezmatt13> mm
[10:50] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> relays are very robust devices so no need to get techincal at all ;-)
[10:50] Action: ibanezmatt13 feels stupid now
[10:50] <mikestir> coil resistance is 27 ohms btw
[10:50] <mikestir> for that one
[10:51] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> so 33 ohms aill be about right
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[10:51] <mikestir> looking at the schematic for that sparkfun board, the drive electronics aren't going to pose a problem
[10:51] <ibanezmatt13> right
[10:51] <ibanezmatt13> so I need a 27 ohm, roughly resistor in series on the fire line
[10:52] <mikestir> yes and straight into the relay
[10:52] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> yup all that is needed
[10:52] <ibanezmatt13> thank you all so much!
[10:52] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> especially if you have any resistance in the wires due to length
[10:53] <mikestir> on your original circuit I think you have a construction error - there's no reason why it wouldn't have worked (assuming you took that transistor back out)
[10:53] <ibanezmatt13> probably mikestir, I'm gonna have a good look at it now, cheers
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[10:56] <ibanezmatt13> mikestir: would 22 ohm suffice?
[10:56] <ibanezmatt13> I think it's the closest I have
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[10:57] <mikestir> for a sanity check, you need a minimum of 7V at the reg for it to work properly. we know the current is about 200 mA and your supply is 12V, so your wires could have a total resistance of (12-7)/200mA = 25 ohms and it would still work fine. Even for something thin like multicore house alarm cable that would allow for about a 250m run
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[10:57] <mikestir> yes 22 ohm is probably fine - it's a bit of an overvoltage but as Geoff-G8DHE-M says, relays are robust and low tech
[10:58] <ibanezmatt13> right, I've just discovered I have many 12 ohms
[10:58] <ibanezmatt13> so 2 of those will do it
[10:58] <mikestir> remember you are still dropping that 1.4W here, so the resistor needs to be large enough to take it
[10:59] <mikestir> assuming you have the usual quarter watt resistors you are probably best using 4 100 ohms in parallel
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[10:59] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> How long is the fire button going to be pressed for ? A few seconds ?
[10:59] <mikestir> that's still under-spec but I guess this isn't going to be energised for long?
[10:59] <ibanezmatt13> yeah that's an idea
[11:00] <ibanezmatt13> yes Geoff-G8DHE-M, maximum
[11:00] <ibanezmatt13> 1 or 2
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[11:00] <ibanezmatt13> so probably not gonna get too hot anyway in that time. What do you think?
[11:00] <ibanezmatt13> So using 2 resistors that's around 0.5W on each for a small duration
[11:00] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Another route totally different then is to use a capacitor, it only allows one pulse before its charged and then use a changeover switch to discharge the capacitor!
[11:01] <ibanezmatt13> mm, sounds good but maybe a little complicated compared to the 2 resistors.
[11:01] <mikestir> yeah 2 resistors will probably fine for such a short duration (even 1 probably would be)
[11:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Agreed for a simple system, but if its a an Arm and Fire circuit there is a reason for distance and safety ?
[11:02] <ibanezmatt13> yeah, I'm gonna solder them on now in place of all that junk and see what happens
[11:02] <ibanezmatt13> yes, I have 25m of safety cable :)
[11:02] <fsphil> is there a safety switch at the explody end?
[11:02] <ibanezmatt13> sort of... :/
[11:02] <fsphil> (technical term)
[11:03] <ibanezmatt13> does having the option to plug in and out the battery count :)
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[11:03] <steve_2e0vet> is there an eagle library for the ublox max 7
[11:03] <mikestir> steve_2e0vet: I just drew it last night funnily enough, although Upu probably has one as well
[11:03] <ibanezmatt13> I believe the footprint is identical for the 7 and 6...
[11:03] <ibanezmatt13> I think
[11:04] <ibanezmatt13> I used the max6 out of ava.lbr and shoved a max 7c on it when it came, works a treat
[11:04] <steve_2e0vet> there is a link off of upu's page but it gets a 404 error
[11:04] <mikestir> https://github.com/Upuaut/Eagle-Libraries/blob/master/Ava.lbr
[11:06] <mikestir> afk for a bit
[11:06] <steve_2e0vet> mikestir: how do i import the raw code into eagle?
[11:07] <ibanezmatt13> steve_2e0vet: just download the zip file from that link, and drag the .lbr file into your libraries directory
[11:08] <steve_2e0vet> didnt see a zip link
[11:08] <ibanezmatt13> https://github.com/Upuaut/Eagle-Libraries
[11:08] <ibanezmatt13> that one
[11:08] <steve_2e0vet> found it lol
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[11:11] <steve_2e0vet> all i get from the ava.lbr is 2 x MAX 6 nothing else
[11:12] <Babs_> Steve_G0TDJ - I've been lurking on your hab site checking out your tracker, can I ask a very basic question?
[11:12] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yes, please go ahead Babs_
[11:14] <Babs_> Thanks - so for BABS-HAB last year I built a tracker just using an arduino and a prototyping shield on it containing the gps, ntx etc.
[11:14] <Babs_> and am looking to basically replicate that on a custom pcb along the lines of what you and others have done
[11:14] <Babs_> as my first step to building a tracker
[11:16] <Babs_> obviously in the arduino, you can program down the hardware serial route
[11:16] <Babs_> is the equivalent on a custom circuit like this to use two header pins linked to the corresponding atmega terminals that the hardware serial ports on the arduino would link to?
[11:16] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yes, with the programming header, it's name escapes me just now
[11:17] <Babs_> sorry, as i said this is pretty basics
[11:17] <Babs_> so a programming header is basically just a header, you wire it up like you would have wired it up in the arduino example?
[11:17] <Steve_G0TDJ> If you grab the circuit diagram of either of my VAYU boards, you can see the header with the labels. The labels on the chip pins correspond to connections.
[11:18] <Steve_G0TDJ> I believe so, I use a USB BASP compatible programmer I bought from eBay
[11:18] <Steve_G0TDJ> The header connects the MOSI, MISO and SCK connections along with VCC and GND to the programmer
[11:19] <Steve_G0TDJ> You could have the AVR running with either it's internal osc or a crystal and program it with no other connections
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[11:20] <Babs_> i have a UM232 Serial UART Development Module - i think that's basically the same thing
[11:20] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'll take a peek
[11:20] <Babs_> so it is starting to add up now. I am basically replicating the arduino and shield layout but without all of the gubbins, pins etc. that I am not using in my original tracker.
[11:21] <Babs_> http://www.fischl.de/usbasp/ http://www.ftdichip.com/Support/Documents/DataSheets/Modules/DS_UM232R.pdf
[11:21] <Babs_> yes, looks the same. thanks!
[11:21] <Steve_G0TDJ> That's effectively how I did it. I've made a couple of projrcts with AVRs
[11:22] <Steve_G0TDJ> Please feel free to copy any bits of my boards you like. I've pretty much done the same really, I just love designing PCBs :-)
[11:23] <steve_2e0vet> does it matter that the eagle schematic for an ATMEGA328 looks different to the datasheet eagle=oblong datasheet=square
[11:23] <Steve_G0TDJ> No, it's just the part in Eagle has been manipulated to be easier to lay out
[11:23] <Babs_> I appreciate it, thanks Steve_G0TDJ - at the moment i'm on just basics of laying stuff out etc., but I think i am starting to see how it all works.
[11:24] <Steve_G0TDJ> Nice one Babs_ I only started last year (although I've been tinkering with electronics/computers for years)
[11:25] <Steve_G0TDJ> steve_2e0vet: You can define your own parts in Eagle. If you want it laid out a specific way. There's loads of tutorials online.
[11:26] <steve_2e0vet> Steve_G0TDJ: I'm not that advanced yet lol
[11:26] <steve_2e0vet> am i correct in thinking that i can do away with the arduino mini and just use an atmega chip?
[11:26] <Steve_G0TDJ> :-) It's not that hard, really. You should have a go sometime. By doing that, you will learn a lot about Eagle.
[11:26] <Steve_G0TDJ> steve_2e0vet: For a tracker?
[11:26] <steve_2e0vet> yes
[11:27] <mclane> Hi guys, I have finished the design of my first Pi-shield for my next tracker - can someone have a look? http://gerblook.org/pcb/ASpvFUkH5RtjaySLA9kYBe
[11:27] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, well, all you need is an AVR cihp and set it's oscillator fuses correctly
[11:27] <mclane> specifically to the ublox part
[11:28] <Steve_G0TDJ> steve_2e0vet: An AVR will run quite happily with just power and osc connected.
[11:29] <steve_2e0vet> Might be best to post the schematic here when i have finisehed it just to get it checked
[11:29] <Steve_G0TDJ> mclane: Looks OK to me but see if you can get Ed (eroomde) to check it out.
[11:29] <fsphil> you can even run without the external osc
[11:29] <fsphil> if the fuses are setup to run of the internal one
[11:30] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, I should have made that point fsphil
[11:30] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cheers
[11:30] <steve_2e0vet> fsphil: thats too technical for me at the mo
[11:30] <mclane> thanks Steve_G0TDJ
[11:30] <Steve_G0TDJ> mclane: Did you follow the uBlox datasheet for layout of the antenna?
[11:31] <mclane> yes
[11:31] <fsphil> they are configured to run of the internel by default
[11:32] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, I thought so. Cool :-) I don't know a lot about Pi but the board looks good.
[11:32] <Steve_G0TDJ> steve_2e0vet:, fsphil is totally correct. When I have built a new project, I generally program the Arduino boot loader first.
[11:33] <Steve_G0TDJ> This requires an external crystal, at least the way Arduino do it.
[11:34] <Babs_> I've a feeling there are going to be a lot of questions with this, so at the risk of annoying everyone
[11:35] <Babs_> this is the arduino uno schematic that my pre existing tracker uses http://arduino.cc/en/uploads/Main/arduino-uno-schematic.pdf
[11:35] <Steve_G0TDJ> Babs_: No problem. You have to learn somehow
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[11:36] <Babs_> where I presume the chip in the middle on the left labelled ATMEGA8U2-MU
[11:36] <Steve_G0TDJ> Babs_: The problem with the reference design is that it's got loads of stuff you don't need on it.
[11:36] <Babs_> is the atmega 328 chip that Upu sells in his store and is on his library
[11:36] <Babs_> only the labels on the terminals don't seem to correspond
[11:37] <fsphil> the 8U2-MU isn't the main chip
[11:37] <fsphil> the diagram is a bit misleading as the large IC in the schematic is a small soic chip on the board
[11:38] <fsphil> and that handles the USB communications
[11:38] <fsphil> the IC on the right is the one you're actually programming and using
[11:38] <Babs_> so is it the chip on the right fsphil?
[11:38] <Babs_> ah ok
[11:39] <Steve_G0TDJ> Is that an old diagram? My UNO has a '328 on it
[11:39] <Babs_> but still the terminal labels don't correspond. e.g. upu's schematic has pc0 to pc6 , the chip on the other board has only pc0 to pc5
[11:40] <Babs_> ie the arduino board
[11:41] <fsphil> the SOIC chip may have more pins
[11:41] <Babs_> similarly the chip on the arduino board has xtal 1 and xtal 2, they don't feature on upu's schematic. at the risk of stating the obvious, it is just differences in nomenclature?
[11:42] <mikestir> the crystals are on shared pins - they will just be labelled as their GPIO function on the other schematic
[11:43] <fsphil> there's a page on the datasheet that shows all the pin functions
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[11:43] <fsphil> which is taking its time loading
[11:43] <fsphil> no matter how fast the internet is, it could always be a bit faster :)
[11:44] <Steve_G0TDJ> LOL
[11:44] <steve_2e0vet> Steve_G0TDJ: so can you program the atmega the same way as the arduino mini or does the mini have more "curcuitry" to allow programming
[11:44] <fsphil> yea page 2 on the schematic
[11:44] <Steve_G0TDJ> Babs_: I've got a Revision 3 circuit diagram if you would like. In: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ou02iv0qlzs3jf7/_oDRBw_J9B
[11:45] <fsphil> the crystal pins are called PB6 and PB7
[11:45] <Babs_> fsphil http://wiki.gekgasifier.com/f/1286142633/arduino_pin_mapping.jpg
[11:45] <Steve_G0TDJ> I've never used an Arduino mini steve_2e0vet
[11:45] <Babs_> thanks Steve_G0TDJ
[11:45] <mikestir> I think all the arduinos can be programmed through a serial cable
[11:45] <mikestir> the atmega needs a proper ISP programmer
[11:46] <steve_2e0vet> mikestir: ive got an ISP 500
[11:46] <mikestir> you can of course load the arduino bootloader into the atmega and then use a serial cable, but you still need the real programmer in the first place
[11:46] <fsphil> ISP will program all them
[11:46] <Babs_> fsphil - i can see a bit of xtal to pb6 action going on there?
[11:46] <fsphil> assuming they're not locked
[11:46] <fsphil> Babs_: yea
[11:47] <fsphil> and PC6 is the reset line
[11:48] <Babs_> cool. so i just need to do a bit of translation between the two and follow it through to at least get the compatibility between the two terms working
[11:48] <Babs_> *just*
[11:48] <Babs_> thanks guys
[11:48] <eroomde> just got home to find three wild horses charing around the garden in laps
[11:49] <eroomde> with a shreiking lady and two dogs running up the drive shouting names [presumably, those of the horses]
[11:49] <eroomde> and another lady shreiking at the first lady about having the dogs loose
[11:50] <Steve_G0TDJ> Babs_: You might find this useful: http://www.arduinopassion.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Arduino-uno-Pinout.png There's a PDF version somewhere online
[11:50] <eroomde> and the 3 horses seem very unimpressed
[11:50] <mikestir> eroomde: talking dogs ftw
[11:51] <fsphil> horses are NEVER impressed
[11:51] <eroomde> neighver
[11:51] <fsphil> hay hay
[11:52] <Steve_G0TDJ> Babs_: Here you go: http://www.pighixxx.com/downloads/atmega328/ That guys site has LOTS of info.
[11:53] <Babs_> thanks Steve_G0TDJ - that's really useful
[11:53] <eroomde> parents home rather than my home
[11:53] <Steve_G0TDJ> No probs. I have used these extensively.
[11:53] <eroomde> you could not fit even one horse into my garden
[11:54] <Steve_G0TDJ> Babs_: I put one in the Dropbox folder that I modified for the TQFP chip version. For some reason, he didn't include the pin numbers so I added them.
[12:01] <Babs_> thanks Steve_G0TDJ - the boxes in lines going out in the surface mount (or the none surface mount) chip for that matter, are they all just different ways of identifying each pin, or so some represent components that need to be put in series with them?
[12:02] <Steve_G0TDJ> They are all labels for the pins. A fact that I fould confusing when I started with AVRs
[12:03] <Babs_> e.g. i can see pc2 connects to analog pin a2
[12:03] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yep
[12:04] <Babs_> but what are adc2 and the other one in series with that? just other ways of saying the same thing or is there a physical component represented in there?
[12:04] <Steve_G0TDJ> No, they are all labels
[12:06] <Upu> hey Babs_
[12:06] <Upu> the MU part is for my own personal playing about its not the TQFP I sell on the store
[12:06] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hi Upu
[12:06] <Babs_> ahhh, i was under the impression that other components needed to be wired in series, but effectively the i/o pins are wired directly to the microcontroller without intervention
[12:06] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yes
[12:07] <Babs_> and the remaining atmega pads are taken to power, gnd or presumably the crystal
[12:07] <Upu> I'll be about this afternoon if you need some help with it
[12:07] <Steve_G0TDJ> I've not used the ADC pins so I have no idea how you reference them in code. I'd have to look it up.
[12:07] <Upu> sorry been quite busy this weekend
[12:07] <Babs_> hey upu - yes, sorry you will have been pinging like mad with all of the references
[12:08] <Steve_G0TDJ> Upu: Thanks for the bits, they arrived next day
[12:08] <Upu> nps
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[12:08] <Babs_> so should i use your schematic for the atmega, or find another one for ease probably?
[12:08] <Upu> lol yes I came back from site yesterday and my IRC client had melted :)
[12:08] <Upu> use Sparkfun
[12:09] <Upu> https://www.dropbox.com/s/h4xaitcymiwv5pt/SparkFun.lbr
[12:09] <Upu> afk a few
[12:09] <Babs_> thanks
[12:10] <Steve_G0TDJ> Babs_: The way I did it was to start with the '328 chip, add a crystal and then build bits onto it from other peoples circuits.
[12:10] <Steve_G0TDJ> It's basically modular
[12:11] <Steve_G0TDJ> need GPS, put the uBlox on, need a transmitter, put the NTX2 on etc.
[12:11] <Steve_G0TDJ> Right, I have to go for a bit - BBS
[12:12] <fsphil> yea you can start with just power, atmega, crystal and the ISP programming header
[12:13] <fsphil> (+ two caps for the crystal)
[12:14] <Babs_> great, thanks
[12:15] <Babs_> fsphil - there are a bucketload of different gnds and vccs on the chip. is that just for convenience so you can power it from all directions depending on how you lay out the board?
[12:15] <Babs_> bucketload = 3
[12:15] <fsphil> yes
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[12:16] <Babs_> how do you make a decision in the schematic as to where to locate them?
[12:16] <fsphil> only two that you may have to treat differently are GND and AGND
[12:16] <fsphil> but you can consider them the same if you're not using the ADC
[12:16] <Babs_> just which one looks best and then let eagle work it out when you move to board layout?
[12:17] <fsphil> personal perference really
[12:17] <fsphil> whatever looks and results in less routing
[12:17] <fsphil> ideally the gnds will be connected to the bottom layer anyway
[12:17] <fsphil> so they won't have far to go
[12:18] <Babs_> ok - and the crystal (bear in mind i've only just looked at what a crystal is) just presumably needs power into it from one side, with the other connected to the appropriate terminal on the microcontroller. then it just spits out some standard voltage every few nanoseconds, and when the chip receives a voltage, it knows it can chug along a calculation?
[12:19] <fsphil> both pins of the crystal are connected to the avr
[12:19] <fsphil> and each side also has a capacitor to ground
[12:20] <Babs_> presumably on here https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ou02iv0qlzs3jf7/fkocFJUMhn/atmega328qtfp.pdf to adc6, adc7 or aref?
[12:21] <Babs_> (as in both sides of the crystal
[12:21] <Babs_> )
[12:21] <mattbrejza> Babs_: what you described is a crystal oscillator rather than a crystal. A crystal is just a quartz tuning fork that the micro resonates at its fundimental frequency
[12:22] <mikestir> crystal connects between XTAL1 and XTAL2 (pins 7 and 8)
[12:23] <Babs_> hah! thanks mikestir. i missed those two pins as they were off screen on my laptop
[12:23] <Babs_> thanks everyone, right i really need to do some work. bye for now.
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[13:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> OT Anybody found a good method of mounting LCD displays (2x16 > 4x40 types) to a front panel without expensive bezels etc. ?
[13:02] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> even the Bezels aren't cheap and they are just the bezel not a mounting for the display even :-(
[13:07] <mattbrejza> assuming you dont have access to a laser cutter or similar|
[13:09] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> No just the odd case to cut from time to time, this time its a cream surface so you can't hide behind a matt black painted surface
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[13:11] <Upu> Geoff-G8DHE I got mine 3D printed
[13:11] <Upu> a bezel that is
[13:14] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I must admit Upu that had been going thru my mind, what sort of cost involved ?
[13:15] <Upu> well I think it cost me £12 to get mine printed
[13:15] <Upu> however someone else designed the bezel for me
[13:15] <Upu> as I have no idea how to do it :)
[13:15] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> I see there are several designs in a search
[13:15] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> sure there would be a market for a Bezel with mounting for the display behind
[13:16] <Upu> depends on the case you're using though
[13:16] <mikestir> Geoff-G8DHE-M: I once made a panel out of clear acrylic with the rear sprayed black
[13:16] <mikestir> openings masked off
[13:16] <mikestir> that worked ok
[13:16] <mikestir> then you can be less neat with cutting the holes in the actual enclosure
[13:17] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Yup this is a mild steel case with a cream painted finish, previous ones where rack mount units with Matt Black finish which hide any small defects quite well ;-)
[13:19] <Geoff-G8DHE-M> Think it will have to be a £8 Bezel and some board to hold the display behind it fixed elsewhere :-(
[13:23] <steve_2e0vet> how do people program the ATMEGA chip, i was thinking of building an arduino mini with a IC socket to put the chip into - any thoughtd
[13:24] <mikestir> put the 6-pin avrisp header on the board?
[13:24] <mikestir> that's what I usually do if there's room
[13:26] <steve_2e0vet> mikestir: is there a schematic somewhere for the avrisp
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[13:27] <steve_2e0vet> ive got both AVR and FTDI and the mini schematic shows he FTDi, which is why i thought of that http://www.hobbytronics.co.uk/datasheets/Arduino-Pro-Mini_328-v11.pdf
[13:27] <eroomde> steve_2e0vet: though you certainly can program them with an arduino
[13:28] <eroomde> http://learn.adafruit.com/usbtinyisp
[13:28] <eroomde> there are lots of clones around on ebay and so on
[13:28] <steve_2e0vet> eroomde: how dull am I? I have just toticed that the arduino is a removeabe IC
[13:29] <eroomde> my special skill in life is being unable to remove DIP packages from DIP sockets without damaging pins
[13:29] <steve_2e0vet> lol
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[13:30] <mikestir> yes the arduinos come pre-programmed with the bootloader, so you can load the sketch on via the serial (ftdi). you need some sort of isp at least initially if you are using a bare atmega
[13:30] <mikestir> personally I don't bother with any of the arduino stuff since my use of the avr pre-dates it, so I tend not to bother with a bootloader
[13:31] <eroomde> same
[13:31] <eroomde> normal C and the isp are a nice combo
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[13:34] <Neil_M0CJM> Hi all
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[13:37] <Geoff-G8DHE> The Arduino has an ICSP as well
[13:37] <steve_2e0vet> 2nd attempt at schematic, does this look OK http://imgur.com/nhWST9y
[13:37] <eroomde> yus
[13:38] <eroomde> looks good steve_2e0vet, though iwould add kore decouple capacitors
[13:38] <eroomde> more*
[13:38] <eroomde> so for example a 100nf between VCC and gnd right close to the atmgea
[13:39] <eroomde> and likewise the ntx2
[13:39] <eroomde> you probably should also attach the reset pin on the 328 to VCC
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[13:40] <eroomde> other than that, i think you're laughing
[13:40] <steve_2e0vet> yeah I thought about the reset,
[13:41] <eroomde> i beleive it is internally pulled high though, so you can probably get away without it
[13:41] <steve_2e0vet> think i know what you mean about decoupling i will give it a go now
[13:41] <eroomde> with thanks to adamgreig for reminding me the other day that it's internally pulled high on the avr
[13:42] <eroomde> for shiggles it might be fun to use, say, one of the adc pins for a thermistor
[13:42] <eroomde> to measure temp
[13:43] <steve_2e0vet> think i will get the basic one working first
[13:43] <eroomde> but i tend to get a bit carried away with sensors so file that suggestion firmly under 'opinion' rather than good advice :)
[13:43] <eroomde> yes sensible
[13:44] <steve_2e0vet> lol
[13:44] <eroomde> if you just 'break out' the adc pins to a hole that you could later solder a thermistor too, then you at least have a future upgrade option
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[13:52] <steve_2e0vet> eroomde: in eagle is there a special icon for "hole" or is it just the "circle"
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[13:52] <eroomde> could use a via
[13:52] <eroomde> or find a header in the libraries somewhere
[13:52] <eroomde> so the standard pitch is 0.1"
[13:52] <eroomde> i.e. the holes are spaces 0.1" apart
[13:53] <eroomde> if you can find a model 3-pin header, that would do it
[13:53] <Upu> unplate hole is a drill
[13:53] <eroomde> VCC, ADC_IN, GND
[13:53] <eroomde> molex, not model, sorry
[13:53] <steve_2e0vet> cheers
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[13:54] <eroomde> lucky him
[13:55] <Upu> well was obviously nothing malicious just a client out of control
[13:55] <eroomde> steve_2e0vet: i have used the 3-pin molex connectors here, there's a pair of them at the bottom
[13:55] <eroomde> https://www.dropbox.com/s/n6b2pvl2hqk0kd2/iqmod.png
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[13:55] <Upu> steve_2e0vet Sparkfun.lbr M01 etc etc etc
[13:55] <eroomde> you can basically put them and and forget about them, but it'll be super easy to put a connector innthere for a temp sensor in the future if it takes your fancy
[13:56] <steve_2e0vet> cheers both
[14:00] <steve_2e0vet> Upu: any ideas which part of sparkfun.lbr M01 etc is... I cannot seem to find it
[14:01] <Upu> Use this one : https://www.dropbox.com/s/h4xaitcymiwv5pt/SparkFun.lbr
[14:01] <Upu> then just wizz down to M01 etc
[14:02] <Upu> click M02 and you'll see loads of pad options
[14:02] <mattbrejza> id get the latest sparkfun libraries from their github
[14:02] <mattbrejza> much mor estuff and better organised
[14:02] <Upu> or that
[14:03] <Upu> http://i.imgur.com/HZVLGrI.jpg
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[14:12] <steve_2e0vet> is this any better http://imgur.com/j8tg9GI
[14:12] <steve_2e0vet> got to pop out for 5
[14:13] <Steve_G0TDJ> steve_2e0vet: Would be easier to read if the devices were upright ;-)
[14:14] <steve_2e0vet> when designing a tracker in eagle, is it worth putting battery holders on, or do you keep them seperate
[14:14] <eroomde> looks good though i'd add a VCC and a GND to the header steve_2e0vet
[14:14] <Upu> how are you programming the AVR ?
[14:14] <steve_2e0vet> Steve_G0TDJ: was that a reference to just the ublox?
[14:14] <eroomde> there was talk of the dil chip holder on the duino
[14:15] <Upu> ah ok
[14:15] <steve_2e0vet> i was going to chuck it in an arduino first
[14:15] <Upu> stick an ISP header on there
[14:15] <Steve_G0TDJ> steve_2e0vet: No, the uBlox and NTX2
[14:15] <Upu> omg not smd
[14:15] <ibanezmatt13> Yeah just in case, there's a nice ICSP header in the Sparkfun connectors library
[14:16] <steve_2e0vet> Steve_G0TDJ: oh yeah, Ive looked at that NTX2 for months it looks normal now
[14:16] <Steve_G0TDJ> steve_2e0vet: Have you seen any of my diagrams?
[14:17] <steve_2e0vet> anyone know the pin puts for the ISp header, ie where to put it on the atmega, and is there any additional curcuitry required
[14:17] <steve_2e0vet> Steve_G0TDJ: dont think so, but then again i have seen hundreds so possibly
[14:17] <Steve_G0TDJ> OK Take a peek at: http://projecthab.co.uk/VAYU_NTX_v1.04/VAYU_NTX-1.04.pdf
[14:17] <steve_2e0vet> got to shoot to morrisions or i wont be having dinner today
[14:17] <eroomde> lol
[14:17] <eroomde> that sunday feeling
[14:17] <Steve_G0TDJ> No worries, mine is an SMD board
[14:18] <eroomde> empty fridge but want to carry on hacking
[14:18] <eroomde> what to do....
[14:18] <mattbrejza> there is a avr isp part that has all the pins labelled
[14:18] <Steve_G0TDJ> Actually, I have designed a through hole version too....
[14:18] <fsphil> I'm tidying up but keep finding interesting unfinished projects
[14:18] <ibanezmatt13> yeah that's the one I mean mattbrejza, in Sparkfun
[14:18] <mattbrejza> then you just wire to the miso,mosi,reset,clock,gnd,vcc pins
[14:18] <fsphil> tidying up is impossible
[14:18] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'm preping for Tuesday
[14:18] <mattbrejza> ibanezmatt13: ive only been half paying attention :P
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[14:19] <ibanezmatt13> :)
[14:21] <Steve_G0TDJ> Payload - Check, Balloon - Check, Spare balloon - Check, Helium - Check, Laptop with software loaded - Check, Antenna - Check.......
[14:21] <fsphil> bacon?
[14:21] <Steve_G0TDJ> DAMN!
[14:21] <Steve_G0TDJ> Well remembered fsphil
[14:21] <fsphil> abort abort!!
[14:21] <Steve_G0TDJ> LOL :-)
[14:22] <chrisstubbs> bacon status nominal
[14:22] <Steve_G0TDJ> Hey Chris :-)
[14:22] <chrisstubbs> afternoon
[14:22] <Steve_G0TDJ> Will you be about Tues eve?
[14:23] <jcoxon> anyone got the binary to turn a ublox off via serial
[14:23] <craag> Afternoon Steve, is the prediction still SSE?
[14:23] <jcoxon> (not to turn back on again)
[14:23] <DL1SGP> You forgot the Cuppa Check Steve_G0TDJ
[14:23] <Steve_G0TDJ> craag: No, it's gone North but I live in hope....
[14:23] <Steve_G0TDJ> LOL Felix, yeah, another crucial ingredient
[14:23] <chrisstubbs> I will try my best to track Steve_G0TDJ
[14:23] Action: craag hopes for west :)
[14:23] <Steve_G0TDJ> Cheers chrisstubbs
[14:23] <craag> (selfishly)
[14:24] <Steve_G0TDJ> I just want to avoid London City Airport....
[14:24] <craag> Yeah good point
[14:24] <chrisstubbs> I forgot how horrible vista is
[14:24] <Steve_G0TDJ> I'll be checking predictions up until I leave here.
[14:24] <Steve_G0TDJ> VISTA = AWFUL
[14:25] <chrisstubbs> My thoughts right now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQmeI1LenGE
[14:25] <Steve_G0TDJ> ROTFL
[14:26] <Steve_G0TDJ> For those interested: Chang'e 3's first high-quality lunar panorama - http://www.unmannedspaceflight.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=31937
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[14:41] <ibanezmatt13> that's awesoe
[14:41] <ibanezmatt13> me
[14:41] <Steve_G0TDJ> Yeah, cool eh
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[15:08] <steve_2e0vet> anyone know the eagle part for the 8 pin male connector to insert an AVR into
[15:08] <eroomde> just 8 pins?
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[15:09] <mattbrejza> do you mean the 6 pin iscp?
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[15:09] <steve_2e0vet> thats it
[15:09] <Upu> AVR-ISCP Sparkfun
[15:09] <mattbrejza> search for *isp* or *iscp* and it should pop up
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[15:10] <steve_2e0vet> on my ISP500 I have 2 leads 6pin and 10pin whats the difference I have always used the 6pin with the arduino
[15:10] <eroomde> include the '*' symbols
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[15:11] <eroomde> as that means it'll not look for preciselt the name iscp but anything containing the sub-string 'icsp'
[15:11] <mattbrejza> there is no difference one just has 4 more gnd pins for no real reason
[15:11] <eroomde> eg avriscp, avr-iscp, icsp-avr, bob-theicsp-builder
[15:11] <steve_2e0vet> thanks
[15:12] <mattbrejza> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/393053146/powerup-30-smartphone-controlled-paper-airplane
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[15:47] <es5nhc> x-f, am now
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[15:58] <steve_2e0vet> ping
[15:58] <eroomde> just reading an app note for something
[15:58] <eroomde> Performance Verification of Low Noise,
[15:58] <eroomde> Low Dropout Regulators
[15:58] <eroomde> that should be one line
[15:58] <eroomde> anyway, it's a jim williams app note
[15:58] <eroomde> subtitle is 'Silence of the Amps'
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[15:59] <DL7AD_mobile> Good afternoon
[16:01] <DL1SGP2> Guten Nachmittag Sven
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[16:03] <DL7AD_mobile> Juten tag felix /)
[16:04] <DL7AD_mobile> :)
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[16:28] <DL7AD> Upu: hey anthony. thanks for the gps-modules. got them today :)
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[16:32] <Upu> nps DL7AD
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[16:44] <Upu> scrollback
[16:44] <Upu> here ?
[16:45] <steve_2e0vet> how does this look http://imgur.com/qNm73ED
[16:45] <Upu> reset isn't connected
[16:46] <steve_2e0vet> my only concers are reset pin on ISP header and are VCCOK as labels
[16:46] <steve_2e0vet> *VCC OK
[16:46] <Upu> PC6 to reset with a 10k pull up on it
[16:46] <steve_2e0vet> Upu: where does the reset pin go to? is it the reset pin on the ATMEGA
[16:47] <Upu> yes
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[16:48] <mattbrejza> reset doesnt need a pullup
[16:48] <Upu> make sure C1 goes near the VCC on the actual board layout
[16:48] <mattbrejza> has one intenrally
[16:48] <Upu> yeah I've heard this
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[16:48] <Upu> one day I'll be brave and try it
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[16:49] <DL1SGP2> heh Upu is getting the hammer?
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[16:49] <mattbrejza> i didnt add a pullup on mine and its fine
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[16:50] <DL1SGP2> :D
[16:50] <Upu> ok I'll try without
[16:50] <eroomde> well if there's a built-in pullup, and assuming it's not weak, then yes you certainly don't need an external one
[16:50] <steve_2e0vet> Upu: would that be the same for C3
[16:50] <eroomde> infact adding one externally will only make it weaker
[16:51] <eroomde> by which i mean stronger
[16:51] <Upu> wonder why Arduinos put one on
[16:51] <eroomde> the arduino should not be held up as an example of good design by any metric
[16:51] <Upu> decoupling capacitors should always go close to what they are decouping
[16:51] <mattbrejza> wonder why arduino doesnt use a usb bootloader and free up the uart
[16:51] <eroomde> it's some italian hobbyists
[16:51] <Upu> lol
[16:51] <Upu> ofc thx :)
[16:51] <mattbrejza> another example: software serial
[16:52] <Upu> I'll leave it off and see what happens
[16:52] <Upu> oh well yes
[16:52] <craag> mattbrejza: The leonardo does
[16:52] <mattbrejza> apparently lots of waits inside an ISR...
[16:52] <mattbrejza> craag: took their time :P
[16:53] <craag> They did..
[16:53] <mattbrejza> does the leonardo have usb hardware?
[16:53] <steve_2e0vet> is this better http://imgur.com/Qt3DkOB hopefully i can get on to part 2 of the eagle tutorial tonight making the board
[16:53] <mattbrejza> is that the arm one?
[16:53] <craag> And yes, I sue arduino libs at work and so many use a copy-pasted-and-hacked software serial implementation
[16:53] <craag> *use
[16:53] <craag> should sue
[16:53] <craag> No, it's an Atmel avr with a usb transceiver onchip
[16:54] <mattbrejza> oh right
[16:54] <mattbrejza> you can put a usb bootloader on a 328/644 though
[16:55] <mattbrejza> while we're at it, why is the arduino 5V, and that non 0.1" pitched header
[16:55] <eroomde> exactly
[16:55] <Upu> oh don't get me going on Arduino at 5V
[16:55] <eroomde> it's just one of those things
[16:55] <eroomde> sloppiness and marketing always wins
[16:55] <zyp> mattbrejza, there's no usb hardware in 328 and v-usb is shit
[16:55] <eroomde> over good engineering
[16:55] <eroomde> you can see that in lots of electrical standards too
[16:56] <mattbrejza> zyp: having used a usb bootloader it works pretty well tbh
[16:56] <mattbrejza> its only slower usb after all
[16:56] <eroomde> at least in rocketry i've found a happy engineering niche where good engineering counts for a lot
[16:56] <zyp> mattbrejza, I hear it's pretty unreliable
[16:57] <mattbrejza> although installing the drivers for usbasp is a pain
[16:57] <zyp> and unreliable is one thing you don't want a bootloader to be
[16:57] <mattbrejza> well my sample of one isnt mich of a sample, but ive never had any issues
[16:57] <mfa298> mattbrejza: there's always the http://minimususb.com/ which uses one of the AVR's with built in USB support
[16:57] <zyp> mattbrejza, you've not done any sort of volumes either :)
[16:58] <craag> mfa298: That's the one that the leonardo is based on iirc
[16:58] <craag> or atmega32u4
[16:58] <zyp> anecdotal evidence like «I never had any problems with it» does in no way guarantee that it'll work for all your customers when you start selling it
[16:58] <mattbrejza> ok i guess the usb hack is probably not what you really want, but they could have designed the uart bootloader in a way that doesnt tie up uart
[16:59] <mfa298> I think that one is 32U2 (or at least the one I have is)
[16:59] <craag> zyp: You're talking to an academic :P
[17:02] <mattbrejza> does seem lots of places sell usbasp programmers, no idea whether they are considered reliable or not
[17:03] <eroomde> i think a lot of the people they sell them to probably don;t know enough to know where in the chain on theor dev tools the problem lies, if there is a problem
[17:03] <eroomde> how many times do we get questions about avrdude errors in here, for example
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[17:05] <mattbrejza> btw http://www.atmel.com/Images/doc8161.pdf pg 47 Upu
[17:06] <Upu> I believed you before the citation but thx :)
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[17:06] <eroomde> i like the wild looking dick strawbridge of sunday-evening tv
[17:06] <eroomde> his moustache has gone wild
[17:07] <mattbrejza> i was hoping for at least a sentence saying 'internal pullup is fine, dont need external'
[17:07] <mattbrejza> but the only reference is that circuit diagmra
[17:07] <eroomde> colonel dick: http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01146/arts-graphics-2004_1146693a.jpg
[17:07] <Upu> well I'll just not fit one to my next board and see what happens
[17:07] <mattbrejza> its 30-60kohm apparently
[17:07] <eroomde> guardian dick: http://www.jla.co.uk/uploads/images/StrawbridgeDick.jpg
[17:08] <eroomde> unless you have something pretty noisy right next to it then that'll be plenty of pullup
[17:09] <mattbrejza> you would probably want to fix that noise issue with a cap anwyway?
[17:11] <eroomde> i guess
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[17:11] <eroomde> i always thought the cap was to let everything else stabilise before bringing the chip up
[17:12] <mattbrejza> apparently there is a spike filter on reset anyway
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[17:23] <steve_2e0vet> http://imgur.com/Qt3DkOB before i start the board is the AVR wired correctly?
[17:24] <Upu> click move
[17:24] <Upu> click the avr and wizz it round check all the wires are connected
[17:24] <Upu> and run ERC
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[17:31] <eroomde> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-25782249
[17:31] <eroomde> these guys have some balls
[17:31] <eroomde> from and engineering pov
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[17:37] <eroomde> i'd be nervous about turning a hab off overnight and hoping we got carrier on cue the following morning
[17:37] <eroomde> let alone 2 years
[17:38] <steve_2e0vet> in eagle how do you show all the bits that are linked to each other like VCC
[17:39] <eroomde> you can click on the eye symbol on the toolbar on the left
[17:39] <eroomde> then clocim on a signal
[17:39] <eroomde> it'll highlight that whole signal
[17:40] <steve_2e0vet> cheers
[17:48] <x-f> es5nhc, thanks, but too late - my attempt at microballooning had already landed :)
[17:50] <es5nhc> OK thanks... nice tropo tonight btw
[17:50] <steve_2e0vet> Upu: ran ERC, got these errors http://imgur.com/rtvMX6e but i dont think they are anything to worry about
[17:51] <steve_2e0vet> does eagle generate "errors" that are not really errors
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[17:53] <craag> steve_2e0vet: Assuming the top 3 are fine, looks good.
[17:53] <craag> The rest you can fix by properly naming the nets, but you don't need to.
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[17:56] <Willdude123> That is some pretty ugly morse. http://i.imgur.com/b2f61zh.png Computers are useless at decoding human morse
[17:56] <Willdude123> Still heard some american stations
[17:57] <Willdude123> If they were received correctly.
[17:57] Nick change: mrtux -> mrtux_old
[17:57] <SpeedEvil> :)
[17:57] <Willdude123> Either this guy gives out serial numbers normally or he was contesting
[17:57] <Willdude123> I mean the whoe EEEIEIEIEIEIEIEIEIEIE
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[18:00] <LazyLeopard> Some humans go out of their way to make sure their Morse is humanly readable but gives computer readers a real hard time...
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[18:03] <mfa298> there's always the question of whether you heard the american station or the guy talking to the american.
[18:03] <mfa298> although america on 20m at this time of day shouldn't be hard to hear
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[18:04] <Willdude123> I think some of this was recorded about yesterday, same time. Some today
[18:07] <mfa298> the benefit of morse is that it's supposed to be human encodeable/decodeable. If you want something for a computer to do use a computer digital mode (rtty/psk31 etc)
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[18:21] <Willdude123> Do the user services have radio equipment they can use to talk to RAYNET people?
[18:22] <gb73d> yes
[18:22] <gb73d> if they are given pmr radios
[18:23] <Lunar_Lander> hello
[18:23] <Maxell> mfa298: in digital mode one just uses "de"
[18:23] <Maxell> for phone I will just appand "from <call>"
[18:23] <craag> mostly when they want to talk to us though, we give them a RAYNET person who walks around with them.
[18:23] <craag> Willdude123: ^
[18:24] <Willdude123> craag: has RAYNET ever dealt with an actual emergency?
[18:24] <craag> Yes, many times
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[18:25] <craag> The bad flooding a couple of years ago had raynet assisting communications, as the power was out.
[18:25] <Maxell> mfa298: what I like about the single wave modes is the fact **all** power goes into one sine
[18:25] <Maxell> CW, DomEX, etc
[18:25] <mfa298> Maxell: I'm aware of that I was just trying to make the point that just picking a callsign out doesn't mean you've heard that country (unless you've seen enough of the over to see who's calling who)
[18:25] <Maxell> Hellscreiber, olivia
[18:25] <Willdude123> Is raynet available all the time so if there was a big terrorist attack somewhere would RAYNET be helping civillians or user services?
[18:26] <craag> Yes we can be put on standby at any time.
[18:26] <craag> We are mostly there in case there is a problem with the existing user services communication systems
[18:26] <Willdude123> "
[18:26] <Willdude123> Do not drink alcohol whilst on duty"
[18:27] <Willdude123> Damn
[18:27] <Maxell> mfa298: true, and sometine it's really weird, can't hear the Dutchman doing 40 meters like few kms away, while the UK dude comes in fine
[18:27] <Maxell> famn you, skip zone
[18:27] <craag> Well, it's a volunteer job. So the RAYNET group controller, (or his deputy) will call out to find who is availible.
[18:28] <craag> If you're busy, or drunk, you're not availible.
[18:29] <craag> If there is a major incident, the raynet group may be placed on standby, but would only be used if the existing communication infrastructure was insufficient.
[18:29] <LazyLeopard> Maxell: It can be quite fun twiddling with http://www.voacap.com/coverage.html to see where's reachable. Sometimes the patterns are quite enlightening.
[18:30] <craag> This could that it can't cope with the amount of traffic, or power outages have taken down the police repeaters, or the telephone exchanges are having faults.
[18:30] <craag> Or, that the incident is somewhere remote (eg scottish highlands) without any existing emergency services communication coverage.
[18:32] <Willdude123> mhm
[18:33] <craag> All of which of course, the emergency services put large amounts of money into ensuring doesn't happen.
[18:33] <craag> But we're there incase it does :)
[18:33] <Willdude123> It sounds a bit boring tbh
[18:34] <craag> It's not as exciting as it may sound.
[18:34] <Willdude123> It never sounded exciting
[18:34] <Willdude123> :P
[18:34] <Willdude123> Expressded an interest anyway, as it's something different to do
[18:35] <craag> Yeah that's mainly what I do it for really. It's something that requires communicating effectively with people, which is something I'm not so good at, so it helps!
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[18:35] <craag> And raises eyebrows at internship interviews..
[18:36] <mfa298> communicating effectivley isn't something a lot of Radio amateurs can do (or so it seems)
[18:37] <craag> We're also looking at building a new packet-radio system in our raynet group
[18:37] <craag> to effectively replace email in the case of a communication outage.
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[18:39] <craag> with raspberry pis, trying to break the mould of just being another antiquated raynet group.
[18:39] <craag> If only I could find the time to work on this yet-another-project.
[18:39] <Willdude123> craag: is there a group finder?
[18:40] <craag> Willdude123: http://www.raynet-uk.net/main/contact.asp
[18:42] <craag> Willdude123: It's not that much fun, but the experience of it has taught me a lot I think.
[18:43] <Willdude123> Yeah
[18:44] <Willdude123> I could do with stuff to do
[18:44] <Willdude123> I'm fed up with school at the moment
[18:44] <Willdude123> They are testing us on things they never taught us
[18:49] <LazyLeopard> Heh.
[18:50] <steve_2e0vet> the kids always say that Willdude123
[18:52] <LazyLeopard> ...and the curious kids will have learned it anyway. ;)
[18:52] <steve_2e0vet> during a teacher training day
[18:52] <LazyLeopard> (for all sorts of values of "it", some more extra-curicular than others...)
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[18:59] <es5nhc> Tropo update... hearing 91.5 LR2 Riga here at KO38FD. FYI: x-f
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[19:14] <jeffewil> Hi, I'm currently trying to set up dl-fldigi correctly but am getting a message "WARNING! Caught runtime_error: Invalid response: bad key in a row" - anyone know what this means and should I worry about it?
[19:19] <jeffewil> anyone here?
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[19:20] <adwiens> yup. no idea about that message tho
[19:21] <jeffewil> hmm.. would you mind checking something on your installation for me?
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[19:24] <craag> jeffewil: People in #habhub might have a better idea of what that could mean.
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[20:31] <shmr> Hi all. I'm trying to figure out how I caused a UBlox Max-7 to stop working. It's on a custom board, external patch antenna, UART & TP connections only. It was working fine, had a fix, and then the timepulse pin went high and stayed high, no data from UART. Any ideas? I'm confused because I barely touched the board between working and broken... I'm thinking maybe a static discharge? Or possibly shorted UART TxD to GND while I
[20:32] <shmr> sorry for the essay :D
[20:33] <eroomde> it's still broken/?
[20:33] <eroomde> AFTER A FEW POWER CYCLES?
[20:33] <eroomde> whoops
[20:33] <shmr> yuup
[20:34] <shmr> whoops indeed!
[20:34] <shmr> right now I just wanna know how I did it lol :P
[20:36] <Willdude123> Is my thinking correct that nobody will ever know what the time is?
[20:36] <mattbrejza> youll probably only statically damage the rf side, but it should still give you nmea
[20:37] <shmr> mattbrejza: yeah true, it wouldn't hurt the rest of it
[20:37] <mattbrejza> they are suprisingly tough (well the max6 was), so i would assume they should be able to survive shorting tx for a while
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[20:37] <craag> shmr: Have you checked that tx isn't still shorted?
[20:37] <shmr> I wouldn't expect shorting uart to damage the rest of the chip anyway
[20:37] <shmr> craag: yes checked that
[20:38] <shmr> checked all the pins for shorts >< lol
[20:39] <shmr> craag: btw, your replacement is working nicely :)
[20:39] <craag> Good to hear!
[20:39] <shmr> no fix indoors though
[20:39] <shmr> figures
[20:39] <craag> Got a fix outside though?
[20:40] <shmr> haven't tried yet :P
[20:40] <Willdude123> I really shouldn't find this difficult but I really do http://imgur.com/oZMsoov
[20:41] <craag> I ask because we're currently having a reproducible problem with getting max7s to find a fix on campus!
[20:41] <craag> They work fine indoors at my house
[20:41] <craag> But not outside anywhere in campus!
[20:41] <mattbrejza> or my house
[20:42] <mattbrejza> btw craag have you had time to side by side test the two ublox modules yet?
[20:43] <shmr> ah that's worth knowing
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[20:44] <mattbrejza> i have a max6 to compare against too
[20:45] <mattbrejza> and the max7 ones (i have 4) are much worse
[20:48] <craag> mattbrejza: shmr currently has the sarantel module
[20:49] <craag> I've jsut plugged in the chip antenna module though
[20:49] <mattbrejza> oh i see
[20:52] <shmr> btw, has anyone had experience using these? http://uk.farnell.com/maestro-wireless-solutions/a2200a/gps-module-rom-based-mini-outline/dp/2281694
[20:52] <Babs_> hey chaps - another eagle question. when i link the nets to components and i move the components around using the move tool, it drags along the connections as expected. when i use the ntx-2 module of upus and do the same thing, it doesn't
[20:53] <Babs_> is there something on the component i am toggling which i am not?
[20:53] <eroomde> andorra is weird. you forget there'a country there
[20:53] <eroomde> Babs_: in all cases?
[20:53] <eroomde> i.e. for all the pins?
[20:53] <eroomde> or just some?
[20:53] <Babs_> 2 secs - let me try
[20:54] <DL1SGP> it kind of is like Liechtenstein, eroomde, isn't it?
[20:54] <eroomde> yeah
[20:54] <eroomde> i guess
[20:55] <eroomde> but even less often talked about
[20:55] <DL1SGP> indeed
[20:55] <Babs_> yes, all cases eroomde - assuming that i should be linking on the end of each of the 7 ntx pins
[20:55] <mattbrejza> san marino too
[20:55] <eroomde> screenshot babs
[20:56] <eroomde> also type 'grid' into the text bar above the schematic window and tell me what the number is in the 'size' box
[20:58] <Babs_> http://imgur.com/r0PHG2d - post my attempt to move the ntx 2
[20:59] <eroomde> draw a new net from the tip of the current one to the ntx2 pin
[20:59] <Babs_> size 0.1, multiple 1
[20:59] <Upu> Babs
[21:00] <Babs_> hey upu
[21:00] <eroomde> see above
[21:00] <Upu> your GPS has RF in linked to GND
[21:00] <Upu> this will not end well
[21:00] <eroomde> i was getting to that :)
[21:00] <Upu> lol
[21:00] <Babs_> s'ok, at the moment its not going to transmit anyway cos the ntx 2 is floating in space
[21:00] <Babs_> ;-)
[21:00] <Upu> suggestion
[21:00] <Upu> Eagle is retarded
[21:00] <DL1SGP> Upu: connection is flaky here tonight, please do not ban me in case of something going odd :)
[21:01] <Upu> and even though the default spacing on schmatics is 0.05" it defaults to 0.1"
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[21:01] <eroomde> what?
[21:01] <Upu> so go to View -> Grid
[21:01] <eroomde> always 0.1"
[21:01] <eroomde> never anything else
[21:01] <Upu> and press default
[21:01] <eroomde> ever
[21:02] Last message repeated 1 time(s).
[21:02] <Upu> some parts use 0.05" spacing
[21:02] <Babs_> hah, I've just totally corrected that gnd connection thing in like, only 2 minutes
[21:02] <Upu> try it press default
[21:02] <Babs_> next stop nasa
[21:02] <eroomde> that is f*cked up upu
[21:02] <eroomde> terrible
[21:02] <Upu> the default is 0.05"
[21:02] <eroomde> let's go kill them
[21:02] <Upu> but it doesn't default to the default
[21:02] <Upu> for lolz
[21:02] Action: DL1SGP slaps Eagle around a bit with a large trout
[21:03] <Upu> I've found lots of components where people have used the actual 0.05" default
[21:03] <Babs_> hold on, is that never ever press default, or press default?
[21:03] <Upu> press default
[21:04] <Babs_> and it goes to size 0.05. all ok?
[21:04] <Upu> yup
[21:04] <eroomde> no
[21:04] <eroomde> make it 0.1
[21:04] <eroomde> as in yes it does that, but no, stick to 0.1" spacing
[21:04] <Babs_> Upu vs. Eroomde. It's like Way of the Exploding Fist bitd
[21:05] <Upu> let me check the spacing on the NTX2 I did
[21:05] <mattbrejza> +1 0.1"
[21:05] <eroomde> always 0.1"
[21:05] <eroomde> always
[21:05] <Upu> ok spacing is 0.1" on the NTX2 so you should be ok
[21:05] <eroomde> never deviate from 0.1
[21:05] <eroomde> you'll cause disaster
[21:06] <eroomde> and make your work unshareable
[21:06] <eroomde> and cause erc errors
[21:06] <Upu> lol telling you there are many parts out there using 0.05"
[21:06] <eroomde> and all sorts
[21:06] <eroomde> i have never come across one ever
[21:06] <Upu> but you're ok with 0.1" for the moment
[21:06] <eroomde> i can only assume they've been made by nincompoops if they do exist
[21:07] <eroomde> if someone sends you a lib with 0.05" spacing, send them abuse too
[21:07] <eroomde> it's not cricket
[21:08] <Babs_> ok, so consensus is that this is now ok and i should never ever touch it http://imgur.com/xlK1hMq
[21:08] <Zuph> Better EDA packages eliminate this problem :-P
[21:09] <eroomde> yes
[21:09] <mikestir> you mean like the stupid arduino shield header
[21:09] <eroomde> but if you've got stuff centered on a 0.05" spacing in there already, you might be in trouble
[21:09] <eroomde> hopefully you haven't
[21:09] <eroomde> mikestir: no this is in the schematic editor rather than the layout editor
[21:09] <Babs_> i can do it again pretty easily, at the moment i'm just trying it all
[21:09] <eroomde> it's a very stupid problem to have in existence
[21:10] <mikestir> oh right. i'll go back to sleep. my comment on the arduino header being stupid still stands though
[21:11] <eroomde> yes
[21:11] <eroomde> italian hobbyists
[21:12] <Babs_> problem solved. i started again and the NTX wire connection thing is my b****
[21:12] <Babs_> it was something to do with me meddling with those size things
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[21:13] <Babs_> (everyone is going to come to love my technical descriptions)
[21:13] <Babs_> I'm going to post my gimbal in a week in an attempt to garner some much needed credibility
[21:13] <Upu> hehe
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[21:13] <Willdude123> Do all ATV stations need license NoVs since they are broadcasting?
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[21:14] <Babs_> cheers upu - that library of yours is really helpful
[21:14] <Willdude123> hey matt
[21:14] <Upu> no problems
[21:14] <Upu> glad you're getting some use out of it
[21:14] <Upu> most of the stuff is tested
[21:15] <ibanezmatt13> evening Will
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[21:16] <Willdude123> Why is Java such a pain? They make you add exceptions for all applets where the developers can't shell out hundreds per year to be signed
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[21:21] <mfa298> Willdude123: I think you'll find most ATV is still station to station (probably more so than voice as use of directional antennas will be more common)
[21:22] <Willdude123> So is GB2RS an exception?
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> ibanezmatt13: so i discovered how cesaroni got to such high ISP figures on their website
[21:22] <mfa298> GB2RS will be a special case - made fairly obvious by the GB prefix.
[21:22] <Laurenceb_> they fudged the figures by including the ejection mass in with the propellant
[21:22] <ibanezmatt13> pm Laurenceb_
[21:23] <ibanezmatt13> aah
[21:23] <ibanezmatt13> that explains it
[21:23] <Laurenceb_> they do have high isp for the larger motors
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[21:23] <Laurenceb_> but for the really small stuff it drops off faster
[21:23] <mikestir> for atv there's a 2m talkback channel (144.750) so it's not really a broadcast
[21:24] <mikestir> they'll be discussing who they're aiming their beam at on there
[21:24] <mfa298> if you listen to GB2RS broadcasts you'll probably also hear whoever is reading the news script out signing off at the end and inviting comments/net after using their own call.
[21:24] <aadamson> any stm guys here... can you tell me what the diff is between pwm mode 1 and mode 2?
[21:24] <aadamson> in an output single channel useage?
[21:25] <LazyLeopard> GB2RSand GB2CW alike.
[21:25] <aadamson> i'll be go to heck if I can find any docs on what each are... and when to use one vs the other...
[21:26] <Babs_> Upu - I'll get the first board done in pink as a tribute
[21:26] <Upu> haha
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[21:37] <Willdude123> Ardusat looks impressive
[21:40] <Willdude123> I would enter the contest but I have no good ideas
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[21:42] <eroomde> have they returned any useful data?
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[21:43] <Willdude123> Not sure if they have yet
[21:43] <Willdude123> Surely there's a limit to what data they can collect.
[21:43] <Willdude123> In terms of surely someobody has done that or found that out before
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[21:45] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[21:47] <Willdude123> In fact my school is doing a computer club
[21:47] <Willdude123> Perhaps we could track funcube
[21:50] <eroomde> good idea
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[22:13] <cm13g09> mfa298: ping
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[22:23] <Reb-SM3ULC> Willdude123: could be good fun. have some good place for antennas?
[22:23] <mfa298> cm13g09: pong
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[22:34] <eroomde> http://i.imgur.com/0zmWH0e.gif.jpg
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[22:38] <anerDev> eroomde looooooool
[22:39] <eroomde> a metaphor for so many things
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[22:41] <anerDev> https://24.media.tumblr.com/e5a7dd7cce81adab7d84377e35b0185e/tumblr_mznxs2C1Fv1sig16bo1_250.gif
[22:44] <eroomde> http://media1.giphy.com/media/BwHtCxt8q7fri/giphy.gif
[22:49] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Wait. Won't including non-propellant mass give you a _lower_ figure?
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[23:03] <WillTablet> eroomde: why the very amusing but tolerably OT gifs?
[23:06] <Laurenceb_> its complicated :P
[23:06] <Laurenceb_> they say all the impulse is due to the propellant
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> then they ignore the ablation mass in the isp calculation
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> the ejection charge mass only appears in the final mass
[23:07] <Laurenceb_> it complicates the performance calculation somewhat
[23:08] <Geoff-G8DHE> https://www.360cities.net/image/lunar-panorama-change-3-lander#42.72,-32.73,110.0
[23:08] <Laurenceb_> turns out an off the self G motor will get to only 75Km
[23:09] Nick change: gonzo__ -> gonzo_
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[23:10] <Laurenceb_> but rebore the nozzle to 16 time expansion and remove the ejection charge and it will make 105Km
[23:12] Nick change: WillTablet -> Ofcom
[23:12] <Laurenceb_> WillTroll
[23:12] Nick change: Ofcom -> WillTablet
[23:12] <WillTablet> Trollence
[23:13] <Laurenceb_> anyone know if these things exist in 1.5A version?
[23:13] <Laurenceb_> http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/switches/g-switch-type-one/
[23:13] <WillTablet> Trolololololololololol
[23:13] <WillTablet> Yuhuhuhuhuhuhuh
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[23:19] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: :)
[23:21] <Laurenceb_> i should do a proper diagram of this thing
[23:22] <WillTablet> Laurenceb_: when do you find out about your PhD?
[23:23] <WillTablet> Remind me what were you actually researching?
[23:23] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Oh - you've actually finished the thesis?
[23:23] <Laurenceb_> lolno
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[23:23] <Laurenceb_> been trying to find my supervisor
[23:23] <WillTablet> Laurenceb_: what are you researching and why should anyone in the real world care?
[23:24] <WillTablet> No offence
[23:24] <Laurenceb_> you know its bad when you dont know what continent your supervisor is on
[23:24] <Laurenceb_> someone thought he was in Canada...
[23:26] <Laurenceb_> http://i.imgur.com/oNBQhMc.jpg
[23:30] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[23:31] <Laurenceb_> piss poor "nozzle"
[23:32] <WillTablet> Mfw I don't understand any of this
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[23:34] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: Looks way underexpanded - is the assumption it will wear lots?
[23:34] <Laurenceb_> hmm
[23:34] <SpeedEvil> But surely the 'throat' would wear most
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> Making it even worse
[23:35] <Laurenceb_> i yeah
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[23:35] <Laurenceb_> grr RocketBoy has left :P
[23:35] <Laurenceb_> he would know
[23:35] <Laurenceb_> iirc the nozzels can be reused a few times
[23:35] <Laurenceb_> so that would suggest they dont wear too fast
[23:35] <SpeedEvil> Laurenceb_: I wonder if it's a manufactuarbility thing. The wider nozzle cone falls out, or something
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[23:43] Nick change: WillTablet -> Ofcom
[23:43] <Ofcom> Idgaf about ham radio
[23:43] Nick change: Ofcom -> WillTablet
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[23:55] <Laurenceb_> http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?3381-Aerotech-vs-Cesaroni
[23:55] <Laurenceb_> answer: they dont design for performance
[23:55] <Laurenceb_> they design for fireworks shows
[00:00] --- Mon Jan 20 2014