highaltitude.log.20140117

[00:07] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
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[00:19] <cats7896> Hi
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[01:32] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[01:52] <adwiens> ping
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[02:12] <adwiens> hey
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[03:38] <cats7896> Hi
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[03:54] <cats7896> How do I name my project? is there a protocol or is it just random?
[03:56] <SpeedEvil> Quite random.
[03:56] <SpeedEvil> Try to avoid previously used ones, or ones that will inspire panic.
[03:58] <cats7896> True, don't want people to panic.
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[05:30] <cats7896> I am back, Hi~!
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[06:36] <jphoglund> morning
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[06:43] <x-f> morning
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[06:46] <SP9UOB-Tom> morning X-F
[06:47] <x-f> morning, Tom
[06:54] <Upu> morning all
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[06:55] <SP9UOB-Tom> Well - friday :-)
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[07:24] <_Natio> 123
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[07:44] <eroomde> morning
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[07:48] <WillTablet> Morning eroomde
[07:51] <number10> morning
[07:53] <daveake> morning
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[08:47] <Maxell> bzzzz
[08:50] <eroomde> pong
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[08:57] <fsphil> wap wap
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[09:27] <nats`> hi boyz
[09:27] <fsphil> there may be girlz here too, and otherz
[09:30] <eroomde> also that does come across a bit Village People
[09:36] Nick change: Guest66083 -> Hix
[09:36] Nick change: KipK_away -> KipK
[09:43] <Babs_> eroomde - if I ask you a slightly open ended question about pcb design do I risk massive public disdain?
[09:43] <eroomde> always
[09:43] <eroomde> but go on
[09:45] <Babs_> cool - so I've watched a couple of tutorials on schematic layout and pcb design on eagle. And it doesn't look too bad, it's a bit like circuit powerpoint.
[09:45] <Babs_> but the slightly open ended question is
[09:46] <Babs_> drawing a circuit is one thing, how does one start to work out what components are needed on there, and how everything is connected up?
[09:46] <Hix> Eagle is a little bit pants, but it is no way near the level of evil that is Powerpoint
[09:46] <eroomde> ah, so how to you know what the circuit should look like in the first place
[09:46] <Babs_> is it easiest to look at one that has been done before and copy that design to learn the application that way?
[09:46] <Babs_> yes exactly eroomde
[09:47] <eroomde> very often
[09:47] <eroomde> so for example
[09:47] <eroomde> if you're using an atmega chip as a microcontroller, they have an application note called the hardware integration guide
[09:48] <eroomde> which will show you all the things you need. eg that you need a crystal of this frequency with a loading capacity of that frequency
[09:48] <eroomde> you need to connect reset to your power rail through a 10k capacitor
[09:48] <eroomde> you need to provide a smoothed voltage reference to the ADC voltage reference pin, and it will suggest components to do the smoothing
[09:48] <eroomde> etc
[09:49] <eroomde> likewise the ublox chips have exactly the same thing
[09:49] <adamgreig> (don't AVRs have internal pullups on the reset pin?)
[09:49] <fsphil> yes
[09:49] <adamgreig> (did you really mean 10k capacitor?)
[09:50] <eroomde> for almost every semiconductor component (eg gps, microcontroller, op-amps if you use them) you want a 100n capacitor between power and ground very close by, to 'decouple' (i.e. provide a local buffer of charge to power it)
[09:50] <eroomde> i meant 10k resistor
[09:50] <eroomde> yes they proabbly do
[09:50] <eroomde> last time i layed out an avr circuit was ages ago
[09:50] <eroomde> i've got the jtag reset circuit in my head as i'm typing
[09:50] <Babs_> as in "pin 1 does this" (e.g. +ve power), you need to ensure that it receives only x voltage, so make sure if you battery is pushing out y volts, stick a resistor of z in between the battery and the chip
[09:50] <eroomde> anyway, point is, they'll all be in guides for the most part
[09:50] <eroomde> exactly
[09:51] <eroomde> and then once you've done a first pass you can post it here and we can help review it
[09:51] <eroomde> and you can iterate to expertise
[09:51] <Babs_> is that how ibanzematt13 did it?
[09:51] <eroomde> yep
[09:51] <fsphil> the second and third attempts always look much better
[09:52] <eroomde> totally
[09:52] <Babs_> like my designs in sketchup. its only when you have actually drawn it that you realise how you should have actually drawn it
[09:53] <eroomde> yeah, you always need a throwaway prototype
[09:53] <eroomde> at least at the schematic stage the cost of changes is very low
[09:53] <eroomde> i suspect there'll be more critiquing at the layout stage]
[09:53] <Babs_> and there is generally a multi layer pcb so one layer is ground or positive?
[09:54] <eroomde> for 2 layers, the sort of convention is that yiou put, as much as possible, signals and the top and make the bottom as much as possible a solid ground
[09:54] <eroomde> obviously that's usually quite hard
[09:54] <eroomde> but by default you'd try and route on the top and drop to the bottom if you have 2
[09:54] <eroomde> for 4-layer boards the rough convention is signals--gnd--power--signals
[09:55] <fsphil> making a nice small capacitor in the middle
[09:55] <eroomde> yeah
[09:55] <Babs_> ok cool. let me have a go at it all at some point over the next two weeks and then I will post it on here for critiquing. cheers.
[09:56] <eroomde> gluck
[09:59] <Babs_> last one. what is a "net"?
[10:05] <eroomde> wire
[10:05] <eroomde> use nets to connect pins up
[10:06] <Babs_> ahh ok. I shall now refer to it as wire.
[10:06] <Babs_> tricksy
[10:06] <Babs_> thanks eroomde
[10:11] <Hix> Babs_ is this for Stabilotron II ? If so you do realise you'll have to make the boards ENIG, to keep up with the CFRP?
[10:12] <Babs_> Hey Hix - I have no knowledge of what either of those acronyms mean. plus ca change.
[10:13] <Babs_> I have a tracker that works from last time around, but it is a little large compared to some of the ones that are running around these days
[10:13] <Hix> CFRP is carbon fibre reinforced plastic ENIG - http://goo.gl/y1LES3
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[10:16] <Laurenceb> wait wut
[10:16] <Babs_> ahhh ok. If I manage that and put a few nice angles on it can totally be stealthy stabilotron II
[10:16] <Laurenceb> Hix: CF based pcb?!
[10:16] <eroomde> no Laurenceb
[10:16] <eroomde> read scrollback
[10:16] <Laurenceb> lol
[10:16] <Laurenceb> kk
[10:17] <Babs_> visible only by eye and a hundred or so amateur radio listeners
[10:17] <Hix> Laurenceb PCB would more likely be GFRP ;p
[10:17] <Laurenceb> i know
[10:18] <Babs_> Hix - I did totally fall of the CF wagon the other day and did a bit more 3d printing http://www.flickr.com/photos/91049302@N00/11981111324/
[10:18] <Babs_> the guy i know has a new SLS machine and I was keen to try it out
[10:18] <Laurenceb> wow
[10:18] <Laurenceb> that looks hardcore
[10:18] <Laurenceb> do you have a full diagram of the design anywhere?
[10:18] <Laurenceb> or is it secret ?? :P
[10:19] <Hix> whats the watchstrap looking garb in the centre? Also that's not sketchup is it? It's done stl analysis
[10:19] <Babs_> it's in my head. That's actually just a bit to keep the satellite pcb I pulled out of my spot tracker pointing upwards
[10:20] <Babs_> Hix - do you mean the five bits in the middle?
[10:20] <Hix> yup
[10:20] <Babs_> Laurenceb - I should have it back next week so i'll pop a video up then
[10:20] <Laurenceb> Babs_: so basically its a stabiilised platform using the RC plane type kit?
[10:21] <Laurenceb> i can't spell?
[10:21] <Laurenceb> arggg
[10:21] <Laurenceb> how 2 grammar
[10:22] <Laurenceb> Babs_: have you thought about the relatively low moment of inertia of the non camera bits?
[10:22] <Hix> Babs_ is it compatible with technic lego :)
[10:22] <Laurenceb> on a UAV/whatever it has a ~infinite moment of inertia to act against
[10:23] <Laurenceb> well - not on a UAV
[10:23] <Laurenceb> but its still large
[10:23] <Laurenceb> on a tripod/hand mount it would be huge
[10:23] <Babs_> I actually only use 2 of them, the other 3 are spares.They are actually arranged vertically, with a small bearing like this one mounted in the circular depression you can see on each one. The bearing then has a 4mm CF rod threaded through it linking up with bearings mounted in the big ring you see there so it can rotate around it.
[10:23] <Laurenceb> but on a balloon its going to be relatively small, so it would probably be very unstable
[10:23] <Laurenceb> ok
[10:24] <Laurenceb> im thinking you will need to have something like an inverted pyramid of CF rod on the top
[10:24] <Babs_> Laurenceb - this gimbal is just for the satellite tracker in case it lands upside down in a field. it's a back up.
[10:24] <Laurenceb> to increase the moment of inertia
[10:24] <Laurenceb> of ok
[10:24] <Babs_> the camera gimbal is separate.
[10:24] <Laurenceb> *oh
[10:24] <Laurenceb> i see
[10:24] <Babs_> launching a single gimbal is so passe these days.
[10:25] <Laurenceb> lolz
[10:25] <Babs_> but yes, you are right on the camera inertia thing.
[10:25] <Laurenceb> i guess all this stuff has the advantage of being easy to test
[10:25] <Laurenceb> hand it off some string
[10:25] <Laurenceb> and see if its stable or is it oscillates out of control
[10:25] <Babs_> All of the batteries are mounted in the upper housing, so that is a chunk of weight there.
[10:25] <Laurenceb> yeah that will help
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[10:25] <Babs_> but yes, was thinking the same thing about rods mounted on the top with small weights right at the end
[10:26] <Babs_> will see what it is like in testing
[10:26] <Laurenceb> yeah, theres only one way to find out
[10:26] <Laurenceb> and adding different length rods can be done later
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[10:27] <Babs_> Hix - the pic is not sketchup, its just the stl conversion as you say, and all the parts are packed in there cos the guy just charges by swept volume. the parts in the middle are effectively free if i jam them in there
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[10:28] <Hix> ahh, so it's just a nested stl. I was getting very confused. What's the accuracy on his new SLS m/c, and whats the cost/volume?
[10:28] <Babs_> 10p per cm3
[10:28] <Babs_> and i think 0.1mm
[10:28] <Babs_> accuracy
[10:29] <Laurenceb> not too bad
[10:29] <Laurenceb> this is nylon?
[10:29] <Laurenceb> oh
[10:29] <Laurenceb> the glass reinforced nylon?
[10:29] <Babs_> nylon yes
[10:29] <Babs_> not sure about the reinforced bit
[10:29] <Babs_> this is the bearing type that fits in it all http://imgur.com/HYeueq8
[10:30] <Hix> hmm. seems pretty reasonable. Badgercam may have some nice bits instead of sugru bodges
[10:33] <Babs_> hix http://www.3dprint-uk.co.uk/portfolio/machines-4/
[10:33] <Hix> tvm
[10:34] <Babs_> Hix - do you ever speak in non-acronyms?
[10:34] <Babs_> it's like texting my Mom
[10:34] <Babs_> ;-)
[10:34] <Hix> n.o ;p
[10:35] <Hix> Babs_ you've seen my typing skills no? acronyms are waaay safer
[10:36] <Babs_> fair point
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[11:15] <Hix> Babs_ here's an SLA I had done a few weeks back, there's some pretty impressive detail on the passives on the pcb http://i.imgur.com/X6qwdio.jpg
[11:15] <Babs_> where did you get it done?
[11:16] <Babs_> and was this just to test it would fit in a certain place?
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[11:18] <Hix> www.oglemodels.com it was a mock-up for a car manufacturer to the excel and powerpoint users could actually understand something physical ;) no way was it 10p/cm^3
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[11:23] <SpeedEvil> That's an expensive car.
[11:24] <Hix> ?
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[11:39] <Laurenceb> http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/tools/PF260087
[11:39] <Laurenceb> lolling
[11:40] <Laurenceb> program stm32 in visual basic
[11:40] <fsphil> YOU WILL DIE NOW
[11:41] <fsphil> oh god you're not joking
[11:41] <Laurenceb> "gives C#, Visual Basic, or Visual Studio programmers access"
[11:41] <x-f> Laurenceb, is it really possible to have 150psi of air in a 2L coke bottle?
[11:42] <Laurenceb> yes
[11:42] <Laurenceb> fsphil: i guess the visual studio debug support has its uses
[11:42] <x-f> that's a lot
[11:42] <zyp> Laurenceb, that's cool, then you can write a gui interface to track an ip address
[11:42] <Laurenceb> ill stick with gdb
[11:43] <Laurenceb> lol
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[11:57] <gonzo__> just a a shaken coke bottle of coke is about 40psI
[11:57] <gonzo__> have had 6bar in them for making water rockets
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[11:58] <Laurenceb> looks like a undamaged one can hold about 150psi at least
[11:59] <Laurenceb> http://www.aircommandrockets.com/procedures.htm
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[12:06] <eroomde> coke bottles can take 250psi
[12:06] <Laurenceb> the smaller ones?
[12:07] <Laurenceb> i was talking about 2L
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[12:12] <Laurenceb> hmm
[12:12] <Laurenceb> two or three 2L bottles is almost enough He to launch a picoballon
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> Much more than that.
[12:15] <SpeedEvil> If liquified.
[12:15] <Laurenceb> lol
[12:16] Action: Laurenceb is playing with simulations of a "dumb" 2L pop bottle + estes D motor rocket
[12:16] <Laurenceb> with a uncontrolled spinup RCS run off the bottle
[12:17] <Laurenceb> i cant seem to get the rockoon into a stable spin without RCS control.. but i may have screwed something up
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[12:20] <SpeedEvil> Wow - LHe sucks for phase-change enthalphy
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[12:21] <SpeedEvil> - I was idly wondering how long it'd last in a conventional thermost
[12:23] <SpeedEvil> Of the order of 25 min for a 6l thermos
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[12:51] <Laurenceb> looks like a simple rockoon can be made to work
[12:53] <Laurenceb> 1.25L bottle at 100psi with a pyro burst disc and two SLS printed nylon thrusters
[12:53] <Laurenceb> then estes D motor with nozzle extension looks like a good way to get to 75Km
[13:04] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:05] <SpeedEvil> The bottle drops off, and spins up and orients the stack, which then lights?
[13:08] <Laurenceb> kind of
[13:08] <Laurenceb> this was just an idea for a "dumb" demo
[13:09] <Laurenceb> so a simple D motor with nozzle extension, and no control
[13:09] <Laurenceb> if it spins fast enough then the tumbling from the balloon doesnt matter too much
[13:09] <Laurenceb> about 50hz spin
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[13:11] Nick change: namikaze_ -> xzntric
[13:13] <WillDWork> what software are you using laurenceb?
[13:14] <Laurenceb> for simulation? GNU-Octave
[13:15] <WillDWork> hmmm interesting
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[13:36] Nick change: Geoff-G8DHE_ -> Geoff-G8DHE-M
[13:41] <fsphil> whoever is manipulating time to make today last longer, please stop it
[13:46] <mfa298> maybe they could fiddle with the weather instead to remove the wet stuff
[13:46] <fsphil> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/01/17/lohan_workspace/
[13:46] <fsphil> nice desk
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[13:58] <Lunar_LanderU> hello
[13:59] <DL1SGP1> Guten Nachmittag Kevin
[14:00] <Lunar_LanderU> wie gehts?
[14:01] <DL1SGP1> Ganz gut :) danke, hoffe dir auch.
[14:02] <Lunar_LanderU> mir auch, danke
[14:02] <Lunar_LanderU> freue mich über meine neue workstation, so will ich sie mal nennen
[14:02] <Lunar_LanderU> hab ich ja gestern erwähnt
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[14:05] <DL1SGP1> ja dnan brav dran arbeiten :) aber stimmt was neues ist immer nett :)
[14:17] <eroomde> arko: the door oy my electronics lab: https://www.dropbox.com/s/epfvkjla0djdw6n/2014-01-17%2014.15.52.jpg
[14:18] <Lunar_LanderU> :)
[14:18] <Lunar_LanderU> very interesting http://www.eevblog.com/2014/01/17/eevblog-569-tour-of-an-analog-tv-transmission-facility/
[14:19] <fsphil> couldn't resist eh eroomde
[14:21] <eroomde> no indeed
[14:21] <eroomde> i've always wanted my own department
[14:23] <Lunar_LanderU> cool!
[14:25] <fsphil> oh watt fun
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[15:11] <Laurenceb> does this look exceptionally bad for i2c?
[15:11] <Laurenceb> http://i.imgur.com/3cjuEwP.jpg
[15:11] <Laurenceb> the spikes
[15:11] <adamgreig> not exceptionally but it's quite poor
[15:11] <Laurenceb> something is wrong and i cant work out what
[15:11] <Laurenceb> devices wont ACK
[15:12] <Laurenceb> yet the ACK for a buspirate
[15:12] <Laurenceb> should be 0x30 acking there
[15:12] <eroomde> is there anything without power on the i2c network?
[15:12] <Laurenceb> no
[15:13] <Laurenceb> i clk out 0x00 at startup - its to avoid glitchy devices taking the bus
[15:13] <Laurenceb> ill tyr removing it
[15:16] <Laurenceb> hmf
[15:16] <Laurenceb> just starting up and it goes wrong
[15:16] <Laurenceb> i guess my stm32 might be fried
[15:16] <adamgreig> so many things that might be going wrong though
[15:16] <Laurenceb> thats generating the clk
[15:16] <adamgreig> I spent _ages_ debugging a serial port that would rx but not tx
[15:16] <Laurenceb> well
[15:17] <Laurenceb> this worked fine until...
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[15:17] <adamgreig> turns out a library function was setting a mask on a register that cleared the thing that let the tx pin be an output
[15:17] <adamgreig> so like
[15:17] <adamgreig> yea
[15:17] <Laurenceb> someone snagged the cable (it connects to an ECU)
[15:17] <Laurenceb> and that fried all the sensors
[15:17] <Laurenceb> as they has SDA and VCC connected
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[15:17] <Laurenceb> it may well have also fried the stm32 pins
[15:17] <adamgreig> ah
[15:17] <adamgreig> yea maybe
[15:18] <Laurenceb> but they seem to work on the scope
[15:18] <adamgreig> that's annoying
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[15:18] <Laurenceb> maybe they are running as push pull
[15:18] <Laurenceb> that would explain the behaviour
[15:18] <zyp> I did that once
[15:18] <Laurenceb> hope i havnt fried the sensors again like this
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[15:19] <zyp> one of my devices were strong enough to still ack, but the other weren't, so it looked like one of the devices were defective
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[15:19] <zyp> until I checked with a scope
[15:19] <Laurenceb> interesting
[15:19] <eroomde> interesting
[15:19] <eroomde> lol
[15:19] <eroomde> i do hate i2c though
[15:20] <eroomde> it's stateful and hateful and the bus is not robust to node failures
[15:21] <adamgreig> stateful and hateful. nice.
[15:21] <Laurenceb> looks like i fried my lsm330dl
[15:21] <Laurenceb> ARGGGGGG
[15:21] <adamgreig> what do you like for busses?
[15:21] <Laurenceb> 0.4mm lga-28 reflow
[15:21] <adamgreig> i'm using RS422 for this longish distance lowish speed multidrop serial bus i'm doing
[15:21] <Laurenceb> +stm32 reflow
[15:21] <Laurenceb> not fun
[15:21] <eroomde> adamgreig: can is nice
[15:22] <adamgreig> CAN seems nice. more complicated for very simple nodes I guess
[15:22] <zyp> I also like can
[15:22] <adamgreig> I'm using ATtinys here
[15:22] <eroomde> using that a lot on the rocket rig for sensors that need to dangle down a couple of m of cable
[15:22] <eroomde> and generally use isolation on all the io
[15:22] <adamgreig> so RS422 is happy because DIP8 transceiver to the differential bus pair and then just stick 5V TTL serial into it
[15:22] <eroomde> be it uart or whatever
[15:22] <Laurenceb> yeah
[15:22] <zyp> adamgreig, for simple nodes I'd look at using lpc11c
[15:22] <adamgreig> isolation would be nicer
[15:22] <Laurenceb> itd probably be faster for me to redo this project with CAN and lots of nodes
[15:22] <eroomde> can can cope with kinda 24V wobble between grounds, and other nice hings
[15:22] <zyp> lpc11c is cortex-m0 with built in can transceiver
[15:23] <adamgreig> cute
[15:23] <zyp> pretty cheap too IIRC
[15:23] <eroomde> also ethernet to the dataloggers
[15:23] <eroomde> again, transformer coupled
[15:23] <Laurenceb> but its supposed ot be ready at the beginning of this week :-/
[15:23] <eroomde> obvious that's a sledgehammer to most nuts
[15:23] <eroomde> obviously*
[15:23] <eroomde> the ADUM series of chips from analog devices are good, basically
[15:24] <zyp> is that the isolation chips?
[15:24] <eroomde> also for industrial stuff which is usually just signals of 24V i use an opto-isolator after a bridge rectifier
[15:24] <eroomde> so it can be connected up front to back, upside down, anything between 12V and 26V will do the job
[15:24] <eroomde> etc
[15:25] <eroomde> used that on gyroc too to detect an external pyro control box firing the motor ignition charge
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[15:27] <Laurenceb> ok... so my lsm330dl only works with bus pirate at 5khz or solower now
[15:27] <Laurenceb> *slower
[15:27] <Laurenceb> suggesting its been damaged? previously it ran at 150khz
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[15:34] <Katty> lookit, ma! there's tons of people!
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[15:38] <x-f> we are the power
[15:39] <Lunar_LanderU> :D
[15:41] <Katty> i was thinking maybe i was in this channel last year prior to oshkosh
[15:41] <Katty> but i don't recall the user list to be so long.
[15:43] <es5nhc> 156 people... nice
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[15:51] <adwiens> where do you buy ublox modules?
[15:54] <craag> adwiens: http://ava.upuaut.net/store/index.php?route=product/category&path=59_64
[15:58] <adwiens> thanks!
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[16:40] <DL7AD> evening
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[17:11] <craag> Have people seen the navspark indiegogo? http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/navspark-arduino-compatible-with-gps-gnss-receiver
[17:12] <craag> The 2x RAW for $50 sounds a good deal.
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[17:13] <adamgreig> it's just a venus chip on a board?
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[17:14] <adamgreig> oh it is actually by skytraq huh
[17:16] <craag> Yeah, really just a minature dev board with arduino libs.
[17:18] <craag> As a GPS unit it doesn't really match up to the ublox in any way.
[17:18] <craag> But 2x for $50 and rtklib compatability out of the box..
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[17:21] <craag> And it seems rtklib will run on a beaglebone... now is there a project where I need to know where the HAB is to the nearest cm?
[17:22] <fsphil> terminator-hab
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[17:38] <Willdude123> craag: do you know much about ATV? You in to that kind of stuff?
[17:41] <craag> Willdude123: I know a bit about it. I would be into it if there was anything I could do with from my home location! But no-one in range.
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[17:45] <Laurenceb> any linux gurus here?
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[17:45] <Laurenceb> i have an issue with usb permissions
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[17:50] <Willdude123> craag: I'm looking in to it
[17:50] <Willdude123> G8GTZ is probably the best person to talk to
[17:50] <craag> Yeah ping him an email
[17:51] <craag> I warn you it's a tough area of amateur radio to get into
[17:51] <craag> Probably one of the most technically advanced there is.
[17:51] <Willdude123> No harm chatting to him about it
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[17:51] <craag> Nope :)
[17:52] <mfa298> you'll probably need to get that intermediate license as well to do any serious playing with ATV.
[17:52] <Willdude123> Should probably let him know I'm licensed now
[17:52] <mfa298> there looks to be lots of good info on the batc forums (you might need to be a member for those)
[17:52] <Willdude123> Since he introduced me to amateur radio in the first place
[17:53] <Willdude123> Don't suppose you know his email?
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[17:58] <LazyLeopard> Heh. Callsign confusion here... We had a talk about DATV last year, by G8YTZ...
[17:59] <LazyLeopard> Willdude123: Tried looking on QRZ.com?
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[18:11] Action: Katty looks in
[18:11] <fsphil> craag: DATV is worse :)
[18:12] <LazyLeopard> Yeah. Wiiiiiiide!
[18:14] <craag> I was thinking mostly of DATV, there's only small pockets still doing analog atm.
[18:15] <mattbrejza> is there gonna be a race to see who can fly datv first if the ofcom thing goes well?
[18:15] <fsphil> the only [D]ATV near me is about 60km away
[18:16] <craag> mattbrejza: There's already a couple of approaches that have been talked about, and we've done some antenna testing as well :)
[18:17] <mattbrejza> in hope of rule changes or using existing stuff?
[18:17] <craag> in hope of the rule changes. The chances of being able to do it with current power budget is extremely slim.
[18:18] <mattbrejza> datv stuff seems to be dvb-t, you going that way or dvb-s?
[18:18] <craag> datv stuff is dvb-s
[18:18] <craag> As qam is hard
[18:18] <mattbrejza> well my googling was very limited :P
[18:18] <mattbrejza> do you mean ofdm?
[18:18] <craag> And ofdm
[18:18] <craag> yep
[18:19] <mattbrejza> oh -s is only n-QPSK?
[18:19] <mattbrejza> *nPSK
[18:19] <es5nhc> dvb-s makes sense... especially as the 23 cm falls into IF of satellite receivers
[18:19] <craag> High pk/mean ratio means finding cheap amplifiers that work is v v hard
[18:19] <mattbrejza> tbh rtl dongle
[18:19] <craag> Yeah QPSK is the most used, with various puncture rates
[18:20] <mattbrejza> well depends how much BW you have to play with
[18:20] <mattbrejza> any idea what the rules will allow?
[18:20] <mattbrejza> (potentially)
[18:20] <fsphil> rtl-sdr decoding video through it's audio circuit. neat idea :)
[18:20] <craag> not a clue, I haven't been keeping up
[18:20] <craag> hehe
[18:20] <fsphil> -'
[18:21] <mattbrejza> is there anything stopping you currently using all 2MHz of 144?
[18:21] <mattbrejza> (hams moaning isnt a reason)
[18:21] <craag> Hmm technically no
[18:21] <craag> (at least not ofcom wise)
[18:21] <craag> rsgb will get v pissed off
[18:21] <es5nhc> Here in ES 2m isn't even allocated to ATV
[18:21] <craag> But they're just a bloated lcub really
[18:21] <es5nhc> but 70 cm is
[18:21] <craag> *club
[18:22] <mattbrejza> i would imagine if you were transmitting 2MHz from a balloon, anything local would wipe it out, so potentially people wouldnt care?
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[18:22] <fsphil> it would just be background noise
[18:22] <craag> or wouldn't notice!
[18:22] <craag> exactly
[18:23] <craag> But it is possible we might be getting a proper datv allocation at 146-147MHz
[18:23] <mattbrejza> although any local transmissions would screw you over unless you used ofdm
[18:23] <craag> mm
[18:23] <es5nhc> Those who use yagis for communicating on 2m might notice
[18:23] <mattbrejza> well only if htey pointed that yagi at the balloon
[18:23] <craag> es5nhc: It would just be an extra s-point of noise.
[18:23] <fsphil> if anything, people using yagis would notice even less
[18:24] <es5nhc> True, one might not realize it is more than just noise
[18:24] <craag> es5nhc: There would be nothing to distinguish it from noise.
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[18:24] <craag> But yes, would need to be OFDM
[18:24] <craag> For that to work
[18:24] <mattbrejza> or dsss
[18:24] <es5nhc> Unless you get out a spectrum analyzer ;)
[18:24] <craag> haha very funny
[18:25] <craag> I'll leave you to make the demodulator then matt!
[18:25] <es5nhc> I've analyzed DVB-T COFDM signal with SDR... you will see that the noise has a very steep edge on the spetrum ;)
[18:25] <mattbrejza> well if its only 2m wide the dongles are fine
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[18:25] <es5nhc> depending how well you aim the antenna though
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[18:25] <mattbrejza> 2MHz wide *
[18:26] <craag> es5nhc: Yep, those 2 people in the uk, of which one was sitting by his kit that day, might notice :P
[18:26] <mattbrejza> the idea is that the edge wont be very high
[18:26] <es5nhc> Or me if I am trying to listen to an ISS overpass :D
[18:26] <es5nhc> I assume 2m is dead in UK?
[18:26] <es5nhc> Here we have some activity, at least during the monthly activity contestõ
[18:26] <mattbrejza> anyway, 100-200kHz is probably enough for a start
[18:26] Action: es5nhc has grabbed a few awards in FM category in that contest
[18:27] <craag> es5nhc: Not quite dead yet, but a lot less lively than it was 5 years or so ago.
[18:27] <mattbrejza> 5W should be plenty for 8PSK?
[18:27] <mattbrejza> (should prbably actually work this out)
[18:27] <es5nhc> Then again, well... ham radio is about experimentation :D
[18:27] <mattbrejza> and winding people up intentionally or not is just part of it
[18:27] <mattbrejza> pissing off the rsgb should be an achievement :P
[18:27] <craag> The VHF general manager has been pushing for a 250KHz wideband digital 'experimentation' channel on 2m.
[18:28] <craag> Which would be perfect for this
[18:28] <mattbrejza> (but lets suggest 2MHz wide signals after they help change the regulation)
[18:28] <craag> hehe
[18:28] <craag> yep
[18:29] <mattbrejza> is there much to dvb-s?
[18:30] <mattbrejza> take mpeg stream -> put into packets -> fec -> modulate?
[18:30] <craag> the 'put it into packets' bit is a little complex
[18:31] Nick change: KipK -> KipK_away
[18:31] <craag> with programme ids and the like
[18:31] <craag> but basically, yes
[18:31] <craag> Have a look on M0DTS's site
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[18:31] <mattbrejza> i guess they keep to the dvb-s spec so they can use ots recievers?
[18:31] <craag> He's got some good info on it I think
[18:31] <craag> yes
[18:31] <craag> There's some really quite good ots receivers around
[18:32] <mattbrejza> how hard can the 'put into packets' bit be...
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[18:33] <craag> Someone who knows it inside out is Charles G4GUO
[18:33] <craag> He's just built an FPGA-based DVB-S modulator
[18:33] <craag> (DATV-express)
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[18:34] <mattbrejza> would be nice to have a pc program connected to a dongle
[18:35] <mattbrejza> rather than hacking a ots thing
[18:35] <craag> mm
[18:35] <fsphil> wonder if ffmpeg can produce a valid stream
[18:35] <craag> fsphil: With *much* difficulty
[18:35] <craag> It doesn't do *hard* CBR
[18:36] <craag> So most encoders used are the HW encoders found on PVR cards
[18:36] <mattbrejza> what you want is something ready to go that can sit on a rpi/bbb
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[18:37] <mattbrejza> guessing not many dvb-s encoders about for free t hough
[18:38] <craag> The closest is the digilite project, that puts a modulator on the USB port and does most of it in software.
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> You're all ignoring the fact there has been an open-source encoder around for about a decade.
[18:38] <craag> SpeedEvil: Which one?
[18:38] <SpeedEvil> http://bellard.org/dvbt/
[18:39] <craag> haha yes that one
[18:39] <mattbrejza> how similar is -s and -t?
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> Oh - my mistake - it's not open-source.
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> Also.
[18:39] <craag> mattbrejza: Very different iirc
[18:39] <SpeedEvil> Fabrice Bellard is awesome.
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[18:40] <SpeedEvil> http://bellard.org/ - a simple text list of stuff he's worked on. 95% awesome.
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[18:40] <mattbrejza> hmm lte
[18:40] <SpeedEvil> s/worked on/majorly authored/
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[18:40] <SpeedEvil> tccboot - mind=blown
[18:40] <craag> mattbrejza: Here's one using an MK808 http://www.m0dts.co.uk/index.php?tag=DATV&item=85
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[18:41] <mattbrejza> i wonder how easy it would be to create your own 'standard' using gnu radio for the decoder
[18:41] <fsphil> already had a packet encoder/decoder
[18:42] <fsphil> and any modulator you'd probably need
[18:42] <craag> Shouldn't be too bad. But to get similar performance to the ots DVB-S kit would be v hard.
[18:42] <mattbrejza> depends on the dongle mostly?
[18:42] <mattbrejza> or protocol design too
[18:42] <mattbrejza> ?
[18:43] <craag> The dongle I think
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[18:43] <craag> The RF SoCs now are pretty darn good
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[18:43] <mattbrejza> shame you cant easily get hold of the one the fcd++ uses, that seems pretty good
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[18:44] <craag> Yeah it is..
[18:44] <mattbrejza> it would be nice to make a version of the fcd++ with an audio output on
[18:44] <mattbrejza> arm dsp etc
[18:44] <mattbrejza> bt module
[18:44] <mattbrejza> connect to your phone etc
[18:45] <cm13g09> hey craag
[18:45] <cm13g09> just on my way out of Soton
[18:45] <craag> bt would be awesome
[18:45] <craag> hello cm13g09 !
[18:45] <craag> on the ferry?
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> I would pay 30 quid for an open-source DSL modem.
[18:45] <SpeedEvil> (software)
[18:46] <mattbrejza> i might be able to see you out of my window if youve only just left :P
[18:46] <cm13g09> yes
[18:46] <SpeedEvil> Which is pretty related.
[18:46] <cm13g09> it's ferry wet out here......
[18:46] <cm13g09> mattbrejza: no.... I'm long gone....
[18:46] <cm13g09> last seen approaching Winchester
[18:46] <mattbrejza> oh a land ferry...
[18:47] <cm13g09> mattbrejza: indeed ;)
[18:47] <cm13g09> although with the current weather
[18:47] <cm13g09> we might need ferries soon ;)
[18:48] <mattbrejza> yay for living on the side (and not bottom) of a hill
[18:48] <mattbrejza> although our front porch leaks
[18:48] <mattbrejza> so theres a puddle under the letter box
[18:48] <cm13g09> heh
[18:48] <mattbrejza> so all the post has to be put on the radiator to dry off
[18:49] <cm13g09> haha
[18:49] <craag> lol
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[19:10] <cm13g09> craag: PM pls
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[19:59] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/191001311232?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649 - just got usb microscope following review on eevblog. 35 quid inc shipping.
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> Decent.
[19:59] <SpeedEvil> enough working distance to solder under
[19:59] <Laurenceb> eroomde: can you recommend a mil spec connector?
[19:59] <Laurenceb> for data purposes, low voltage
[20:00] <Laurenceb> im after something really heavy duty
[20:00] <Laurenceb> so if it gets run over by a lorry it survives
[20:00] <Laurenceb> that sort of duty
[20:00] <SpeedEvil> channels?
[20:00] Nick change: Upu_M0UPU -> Upu
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[20:06] <Laurenceb> like 12 or so
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[21:03] <aadamson> anything good launch related on the agenda for tomorrow (Sat)?
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[21:09] <ibanezmatt13> hey
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[21:35] <dl7ad> Evening
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[21:53] <DL1SGP1> :)
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[22:22] <Willdude123> Hello
[22:23] <_Natio> yo
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[22:32] <anerDev> anyone =D
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[22:34] <Upu> evening anerDev
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[22:35] <anerDev> how are you Upu ?
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[22:35] <Upu> very well thanks how are you this evening ?
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[22:36] <anerDev> it's all ok ... I'm watching many video on youtube about habhub :)
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[22:36] <Upu> From the conferences ?
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[22:36] <anerDev> yes
[22:36] <Upu> super
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[22:37] <anerDev> =D
[22:37] <anerDev> are very good ...
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[22:37] <Upu> come to the conference next year
[22:37] <anerDev> but 20 min and I go to bed. Tomorrow @my university I have the test for the payload box
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[22:37] <anerDev> the next year will be the same month ?
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[22:38] <Upu> possibly not arranged it yet
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[22:38] <anerDev> nice !
[22:38] <Upu> scrollback pls sort your connection out
[22:38] <craag> scrollback: Could you sort your connection out please :)
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[22:38] <craag> ha
[22:38] <Upu> lol
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[22:39] <anerDev> I'm signup into mailing lst
[22:39] <craag> not sure he's going to stick around long enough to get a message
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[22:39] <craag> anerDev: I hope to see you there next year!
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[22:39] <Willdude123> hello
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[22:40] #highaltitude: mode change '+o Upu' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[22:40] #highaltitude: mode change '+b *!Scrollback@*' by Upu!~Upu@2a00:14f0:e028:0:351d:7342:17f2:bcdc
[22:40] #highaltitude: mode change '-o Upu' by ChanServ!ChanServ@services.
[22:40] <anerDev> craag I hope. September is perfect for me. But last year, 2013, can't partecipated because I move from high school to university ... the location was fantastic ! If I rember was greenwich campus
[22:40] <DL1SGP1> hehe thanks Upu
[22:41] <Upu> I think we'll do it again there this year
[22:41] <Upu> great setting and great facilities
[22:42] <craag> Yes it was ideal
[22:42] <anerDev> yep
[22:43] <anerDev> this stuff, the weather balloon, I love. In the high school exam I taked my balloon: 35/30 point ! +5 point bonus =D
[22:43] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:43] <Upu> because of the balloon stuff ?
[22:43] <anerDev> and now in the university one teacher is interested for this ! And he added me in his big project:
[22:43] <anerDev> http://www.eumaat.info
[22:44] <Upu> excellent
[22:44] <anerDev> there are many university and uk company in this: http://www.eumaat.info/what-s-maat-about/project-partners/
[22:45] <anerDev> I'm very happy, because if my balloon work, also thanks to this community
[22:45] <Upu> glad you find it helpful :)
[22:45] <Upu> it is a great community here
[22:45] <anerDev> oh yes
[22:45] <anerDev> is very big, and there are many tutorial in the wiki
[22:46] <anerDev> =D
[22:46] <anerDev> so now I go to bed ... good night guys
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[22:46] <Upu> I feel knackered just talking to him :)
[22:48] <Willdude123> Upu: why?
[22:48] <Upu> he's very excitable about everything
[22:48] <Upu> which isn't a bad thing
[22:48] <Willdude123> There is a log
[22:48] <Willdude123> :P
[22:48] <Upu> Did I say anything bad ?
[22:49] <craag> hehe yes I know what you mean
[22:49] <Willdude123> I suppose not
[22:49] <craag> It's good to have a few people like that around though, spruces the channel up every now and then :)
[22:51] <daveake> Spruce is bad. It's a tree.
[22:51] <craag> heh
[22:53] <Willdude123> craag: Is ATV one of those really really complicated things that I probably shouldn't touch till I know exactly what I'm doing?
[22:53] <craag> 'livens' would probably be a more literal way of putting it.
[22:53] <SpeedEvil> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkpznhVas2Q - making ColinFurze look sane.
[22:54] <craag> Willdude123: Unless you find a group of people of about your level to do it with, I don't think you'll find it easy.
[22:55] <craag> G8GTZ is at the top end of it, and actually is quite busy nowadays with roles in the repeater approval committee.
[22:55] <mfa298> looking back at the join/part spam. Wasn't scrollback that JS webirc thingy someone was thying to push yesterday
[22:55] <daveake> yup
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[22:57] <Willdude123> craag: I think I'll give it a miss till I get a rig
[22:58] <craag> Willdude123: Yeah. Put it this way; I'm giving it a miss until I get my own house ;)
[22:58] <craag> There's a lot easier (and cheaper) parts of the hobby to get into
[23:00] <Willdude123> I had an idea - if I get an FT-857D or something, it's got a pretty good PC interface, for £25 or so I could get a decent PC usb and soundcard interface for it. I am thinking raspberry pi or BBB control a operation. Ofc only when I have a full license, but it would still be cool to try the interface out
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[23:01] <Willdude123> will put an ad in radcom
[23:01] <craag> an ad for what?
[23:01] <Willdude123> Wanted a FT-857D
[23:01] <Willdude123> Or 97
[23:02] <craag> Best place by far to find stuff is Club Auctions
[23:02] <Willdude123> Was an 897 for £450 one issue
[23:02] <craag> You'll get stuff for internet-price/4
[23:02] <craag> sometimes less
[23:03] <Willdude123> I realised - I really like amateur radio. It's almost as if it's a hobby and a class of people
[23:03] <Willdude123> Most people are really keen to help
[23:04] <Willdude123> Anyone here got Feb radcom?
[23:04] <Willdude123> Am I in the joiners section?
[23:05] <mfa298> I'd highly recommend getting used to operating when sat in front of the radio first before worrying about remote operating. That said the PC interface could be useful for conrrol of some of the radio features and/or helping in logging.
[23:05] <craag> Willdude123: Doesn't look like it
[23:05] <craag> KIK right?
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[23:06] <mfa298> my experience of connecting PC to radio over RS232 is that it's not always successful (Computers don't like stray RF, and the direct connection between the two can significantly increase the noise floor on HF)
[23:06] <Willdude123> craag: yup
[23:06] <craag> Not there :(
[23:06] <Willdude123> mfa298: roger
[23:06] <Willdude123> Ah
[23:07] <Willdude123> Would explain why I got Jan radcom
[23:07] <craag> Given RSGB's record-keeping though, I'm not surprised.
[23:07] <craag> They recently relaunched the Local-Club Finder
[23:07] <craag> With 2 issues:
[23:08] <Willdude123> craag: is SUWS doing anything with BARC any time soon?
[23:08] <craag> 1. There was a 'Mr Cromp' down for the uni, it was definitely Mr Crump (correct) in the last version
[23:08] <Willdude123> Ok Mr Cromp
[23:08] <craag> 2. They had my mobile number publicly listed, which I asked them a year ago to *delete from the database*
[23:09] <craag> So firstly it looks like someone manually typed in details from the old database, secondly they held onto information I'd told them to get rid of..
[23:10] <craag> Willdude123: Not at the moment, BARC has had a bit of a shake-up in it's organisation.
[23:10] <craag> Probably will do VHF NFD again though.
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[23:10] <Willdude123> craag: how so?
[23:10] <Willdude123> Tim said it was boring and none of them operate
[23:11] <craag> That pretty much describes it
[23:11] <craag> Several of the committee fell out
[23:12] <Willdude123> Oh OK. That's not why Tim quit is it?
[23:12] <craag> tbh SUWS hasn't operated since the summer - we need to fix that, but have been too busy doing license training so far!
[23:12] <craag> No idea
[23:12] <craag> third-hand information
[23:13] <Willdude123> Right
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[23:13] <Willdude123> Trying to figure out HF configurations for the garden
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[23:15] <mfa298> HF configurations are generally as much wire as high up as possible with a suitable method of feeding it.
[23:16] <Willdude123> Is it possible to just have a slack G5RV? Our trees really don't move too much
[23:17] <mfa298> for a g5rv that may depend on how high you can get the ends.
[23:17] <Willdude123> Not sure how tall the trees our
[23:17] <Willdude123> *are
[23:17] <mfa298> For a full size G5RV I think ideally you want the centre >10m above the ground
[23:18] <mfa298> sounds like you need to practice your trigonometry.
[23:19] <craag> :)
[23:22] <Willdude123> My trig is fine
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[23:22] <mfa298> in that case you should know the height of the trees :)
[23:25] <Willdude123> Wait I'd have to measure the angles and distances
[23:26] <Lunar_Lander> good night!
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[00:00] --- Sat Jan 18 2014